SoCal Slammed

[BD80]

Poor Lane.

USC loses 20 scholarships, banned from postseason for two years and all rising juniors and seniors get a free transfer. (should be a fun and very exciting mini recruiting season)

Makes you wonder why Pete Carroll left when he did

[muzikfrk75]

Carroll saw the writing on the wall. Apparently Kiffin didn't lol

[Bluedog]

Linky Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news;_ylt=Agc5KW9YrR6vp8Irf..6V.c5nYcB?slug=ap-southerncaliforniasanctions)

Yeah, Carroll got out while he could....So LSU is the champion of 2004?

Another (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news;_ylt=Ag9Ux7LknDebRHxn0cEqCYA5nYcB?slug=ys-uscprobe061010)

[A-Tex Devil]

Great. Maybe the Downtown Athletic Club will pull the Hesiman from 2005 and give it to the REAL best player that year.

[AZLA]

Carroll saw the writing on the wall. Apparently Kiffin didn't lol

Good point. However, they both anticipated this and, this may sound crazy, but now it's a two-year free pass for Kiffin if he underachieves -- an insurance policy in case of under performance. Meaning, he was just guaranteed at least two years of nothing-to-lose. AKA, "the rebuilding years." This despite whatever happens. If his sub par record as head coach is any indication, being able to point the blame at the lack of scholarship players, no bowl games, the previous SC coaching staff (this despite him having been O.C.), Reggie Bush or Kim Kardashian for that matter; gives Kiffin another win-win. Ka-ching!

[4decadedukie]

Carroll reminds me of the proverbial "rat leaving the sinking ship," although USC really isn't sinking, it's more dry-docked for a few years. However, the NCAA's penalty raises some interesting questions:
1) Does anyone else feel the aggregate penalties imposed are somewhat harsh (and I do NOT mean undeserved, but rather stronger than anticipated and more potent than recent history would suggest they would have been)?
2) If so, could the NCAA possibly be sending a signal of less-tolerance for violations?
3) If so, what are the implications for Kentucky, UConn and (perhaps) even Kansas?

I would be very interested in others' opinions.

[roywhite]

Carroll reminds me of the proverbial "rat leaving the sinking ship," although USC really isn't sinking, it's more dry-docked for a few years. However, the NCAA's penalty raises some interesting questions:
1) Does anyone else feel the aggregate penalties imposed are somewhat harsh (and I do NOT mean undeserved, but rather stronger than anticipated and more potent than recent history would suggest they would have been)?
2) If so, could the NCAA possibly be sending a signal of less-tolerance for violations?
3) If so, what are the implications for Kentucky, UConn and (perhaps) even Kansas?

I would be very interested in others' opinions.

Just my opinion, but:
1) yes
2) yes
3) not good

It bothers me that the investigation took so long and that the penalties fall on players and coaches who were not at the school at the time. But, going after USC football seems like a departure from normal practice for the NCAA. The perception has been that certain heavyweight programs are either not investigated or given no more than a slap on the wrist.

Glad to see some cheating uncovered and penalized.

[left_hook_lacey]

Carroll reminds me of the proverbial "rat leaving the sinking ship," although USC really isn't sinking, it's more dry-docked for a few years. However, the NCAA's penalty raises some interesting questions:
1) Does anyone else feel the aggregate penalties imposed are somewhat harsh (and I do NOT mean undeserved, but rather stronger than anticipated and more potent than recent history would suggest they would have been)?
2) If so, could the NCAA possibly be sending a signal of less-tolerance for violations?
3) If so, what are the implications for Kentucky, UConn and (perhaps) even Kansas?

I would be very interested in others' opinions.

I'm still torn on this. I wonder if the penalties would've been as harsh if there hadn't been such media attention on this story saying that the NCAA has a double standard and protects it's big money makers. That topic has been discussed endlessly while this story developed and I'm wondering if the NCAA made this decision based on all of the chatter about double-standards. If so, good. Watch dog media 1, NCAA double-standards-0.

Now, if we could just get them to be consistent in these types of rulings, and IMO, include the head coaches that are involved when these things happen. Especially John Calipari. Enough is enough with the blatent, under-handed, bending/breaking of the rules.

[4decadedukie]

Just my opinion, but:

3) not good

Glad to see some cheating uncovered and penalized.


Or, Roy, maybe "very good," since I suspect we both feel more draconian NCAA penalties are long overdue, to begin to correct the widespread cheating and near-cheating/environment of noncompliance (and, perhaps, even character and behavioral matters).

[northernduke]

Just thought of this -- Mitch Mustain is a Sr. backup QB (likely not going to win starting job even with new coach) who transferred from Arkansas. He was the #1 prospect out of HS, had a great freshman year at Arkansas and then had a falling out with the coaching staff. Transferred to USC and sat behind Sanchez waiting for his turn. He was supposed to take the reins last year but Barkley jumped him in the depth chart and he never saw the field.

If it is true that Jrs and Srs can transfer without the penalty of sitting out, this could be a windfall for the kid. He could go from the most highly touted backup to a full fledge starter this summer. I'd have to feel pretty good if I was this kid right now.

[cspan37421]

Look out, Cleveland State!

I'm not a TN Vol fan, but I will not be surprised if today is declared Kiffin Schadenfreude Day statewide. And seeing how Kiffin operated, and frankly his arrogant style, always running his mouth, I will probably smile a little with my fellow Tennesseeans.

[cruxer]

Just thought of this -- Mitch Mustain {snip}was the #1 prospect out of HS, {snip} Transferred to USC and sat behind Sanchez waiting for his turn. {snip} He could go from the most highly touted backup to a full fledge starter this summer. I'd have to feel pretty good if I was this kid right now.

What coach really wants Mustain? He left Arkansas because he thought the offense should focus around his passing arm when the team had Darren McFadden and Felix Jones!!! His unhappiness and subsequent transfer caused a rift in the fanbase that eventually prompted a fan to file a FOI request for Houston Nutt's cellphone records, which revealed his suspicious contacts with a comely female reporter at all hours of the night. The controversy diminished Nutt's goodwill and he was eventually driven from the program.

Unless you want all your jumpoffs revealed, stay away from Mustain! :D

[SoCalDukeFan]

Carroll reminds me of the proverbial "rat leaving the sinking ship," although USC really isn't sinking, it's more dry-docked for a few years. However, the NCAA's penalty raises some interesting questions:
1) Does anyone else feel the aggregate penalties imposed are somewhat harsh (and I do NOT mean undeserved, but rather stronger than anticipated and more potent than recent history would suggest they would have been)?
2) If so, could the NCAA possibly be sending a signal of less-tolerance for violations?
3) If so, what are the implications for Kentucky, UConn and (perhaps) even Kansas?

I would be very interested in others' opinions.

My wife is a Trojan and we have football season tickets.

To me USC had two big problems. The running backs coach was probably aware that Bush and his family were getting favors and they continued to play him. Secondly, an agent who had given money to a previous basketball player was allowed to represent OJ Mayo and wss not kicked out of the coaches office.

1) While I do not know the complete penalty, what I have heard is not too severe in my opinion. The allure of USC under Pete Carroll was you will play on the big stage in a huge market etc, which is a big recruiting advantage. With that advantage comes responsibility to police the program. USC failed to do that. I wish that the penalities did not hurt the innocent but it seems like the NCAA always does.

2) The football violations do not involve (to my knowledge anyway) anything that USC did, ie there is no allegation that a booster paid Bush. I thnk that the signal is that schools need to keep agents and others away from their players and their families.

3) Yes, The NCAA us not afreaid of the big time programs.

I expect USC to appleal but that the appeal will not be successful.

SoCal

[2535Miles]

Didn't Alabama win a National Championship a year after going on probation? Something tells me USC won't have any problems.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Didn't Alabama win a National Championship a year after going on probation? Something tells me USC won't have any problems.


Ummm, probation is a bit different from getting a postseason ban and losing 20 scholarships, not to mention losing anyone that is an upperclassman. Im sure USC will be fine in a few years, but I don't think they'll be winning any national champioships in the next 5 years IMO.

[SCMatt33]

Carroll reminds me of the proverbial "rat leaving the sinking ship," although USC really isn't sinking, it's more dry-docked for a few years. However, the NCAA's penalty raises some interesting questions:
1) Does anyone else feel the aggregate penalties imposed are somewhat harsh (and I do NOT mean undeserved, but rather stronger than anticipated and more potent than recent history would suggest they would have been)?
2) If so, could the NCAA possibly be sending a signal of less-tolerance for violations?
3) If so, what are the implications for Kentucky, UConn and (perhaps) even Kansas?

I would be very interested in others' opinions.

1) These penalties are not at all harsh. When the NCAA officially releases everything, I'd bet that USC will fall into at least one if not both of the following categories, "repeat violators" and "lack of institutional control." The first one includes any school that committed a major violation within 5 years of being sanctioned for another, even if probation from the first has expired. In this case, USC had been hit with sanctions from an academic fraud case in August 2001, so anything happening before August 2006, i.e., Reggie Bush, would fall under this provision. "Lack of institutional control" would occur because of the range of violations under multiple teams. The only way that it could get worse is for either a TV ban or the death penalty, both of which needlessly harm other schools who USC would play in the coming years. The NCAA has backed off the TV ban almost entirely and the Death penalty only for the absolute most severe cases, such as directly paying players with full knowledge of the team and athletic department over a period of time (like SMU) or a DIII school giving athletic scholarships.

2) I don't think this is necessarily a change in what the NCAA will do to teams, but is rather an indication of how bad the violations were at USC compared to other places. This isn't Derrick Rose having an invalid test score, and nobody knows exactly who knows what (plus a free plane ride). The individual circumstances aren't among the worst (though still pretty bad), but again, it's the repeat nature of the penalties. BTW, that 2001 academic thing did involve a football player.

3) I don't think this says much about the schools you listed, because I don't believe any fall under the repeat violator clause, and I know that none fall under the lack of institutional control tag. At worst, they fall under the lesser "failure to monitor" tag. Most of the experts made a big deal about this in regards to UConn. Who could be sweating about this is Oklahoma, if their allegations with the basketball team come to pass, as they would fall under the "repeat violator" clause.

In researching the 2001 USC case, I found that the NCAA has a public, online, searchable database of infractions located here (https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch). I had never heard about it before, but it's really useful in finding info about this stuff.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Any of those kids who are now eligible to leave the kind of player (and student) Duke might make a play for? For example, one can't have too many linemen.

GO DUKE!

[budwom]

Interesting thought. While it might usually be considered a stretch that we'd be the beneficiaries of a Trojan transfer, our new recruiting coordinator, Lubick, has extremely strong west coast ties and it's at least conceivable that he might have a link to some of these kids....that and the fact that we do offer immediate playing time for strong players.

[LSanders]

Look out, Cleveland State!

I'm not a TN Vol fan, but I will not be surprised if today is declared Kiffin Schadenfreude Day statewide. And seeing how Kiffin operated, and frankly his arrogant style, always running his mouth, I will probably smile a little with my fellow Tennesseeans.


Yes, I would think a few glasses will be tipped in Kiffin's "honor" in K-Town. IMO, he's a recruiting violation waiting to happen. Given this penalty and Kiffin's penchant for strutting all around the rules, will the NCAA give the lad a little special attention? If so (and he screws the recruiting pooch), his "free pass" will be revoked. If he's forced to follow the straight and narrow, can he and his band of merry men actually recruit legitimately and put post-probation USC back in the national title hunt (especially if he finds himself in the PAC-16 with Texas, et al)?

Personally, I doubt it.

[Olympic Fan]

Interesting thought. While it might usually be considered a stretch that we'd be the beneficiaries of a Trojan transfer, our new recruiting coordinator, Lubick, has extremely strong west coast ties and it's at least conceivable that he might have a link to some of these kids....that and the fact that we do offer immediate playing time for strong players.

I doubt we'd have much of a chance, but I'd kill for one big, strong DT who could help immediately.

[Dukeface88]

I doubt we'd have much of a chance, but I'd kill for one big, strong DT who could help immediately.

I doubt we get any starters, but I don't think snagging a backup is out of the question.

Also, how do the sacntions affect USC's current recruiting class? Any chance that some of them bolt?

[Big Pappa]

I doubt we get any starters, but I don't think snagging a backup is out of the question.

Also, how do the sacntions affect USC's current recruiting class? Any chance that some of them bolt?

I think many of them bolt. They lose 10 football scholarships annually from 2011-2013 so they will most likely not be able to fulfill all of their commitments to recruits.

[SilkyJ]

Great. More kids/staff who had nothing to do with the incident suffer b/c of actions they had nothing to do with and weren't even around when they occurred. Way to really stick it to the bad guys on this one NCAA!

The only way this stuff is gonna stop is if coaches/admins/whomever are reprehensible monetarily from the NCAA. i.e. The NCAA could somehow fine Peter Carroll right now for what went on during his tenure. I imagine it would have to be part of the contracts or whatever schools/coaches agree to with the NCAA as member schools.

[A-Tex Devil]

Great. More kids/staff who had nothing to do with the incident suffer b/c of actions they had nothing to do with and weren't even around when they occurred. Way to really stick it to the bad guys on this one NCAA!

The only way this stuff is gonna stop is if coaches/admins/whomever are reprehensible monetarily from the NCAA. i.e. The NCAA could somehow fine Peter Carroll right now for what went on during his tenure. I imagine it would have to be part of the contracts or whatever schools/coaches agree to with the NCAA as member schools.

Even though the kids/staff get punished, the idea is that it punishes the boosters. If you pay for the good years, you are going to get slammed and have to deal with the bad years. Unfortunately, it's a crappy deterrent.

[tommy]

Great. More kids/staff who had nothing to do with the incident suffer b/c of actions they had nothing to do with and weren't even around when they occurred. Way to really stick it to the bad guys on this one NCAA!

On the other hand, this investigation has been ongoing for what, 4 or 5 years, right? So any kid who has committed to USC has known that this cloud was hovering over the program, and that sanctions could be the result. The more recently recruited kids would've/should've felt that the strongest. They knew this could and likely would happen, but they decided to roll the dice anyway because they wanted to be Trojans that badly. Nobody forced them to make that decision.

[tommy]

Also, how do the sacntions affect USC's current recruiting class? Any chance that some of them bolt?

From what I've been hearing, these kids who are already on campus and in summer school and working out, etc., would need releases from USC to avoid having to sit out a year. They signed LOI's, so they're attached to USC. Same goes for the upperclassmen. And something tells me that that old warm, cuddly teddy bear Mike Garrett is not going to be granting any releases.

[BD80]

From what I've been hearing, these kids who are already on campus and in summer school and working out, etc., would need releases from USC to avoid having to sit out a year. They signed LOI's, so they're attached to USC. Same goes for the upperclassmen. And something tells me that that old warm, cuddly teddy bear Mike Garrett is not going to be granting any releases.

If they haven't started school there wouldn't be a transfer. They can be released from the LOI with no penalty - but that is USC's choice.

If they have started school, I think they are stuck under the transfer rules.

[cspan37421]

Great. More kids/staff who had nothing to do with the incident suffer b/c of actions they had nothing to do with and weren't even around when they occurred.

Yep, see Amaker, Tommy and his time at Michigan.

[4decadedukie]

Let's assume a secondary school athlete knowingly and intentionally commits actions such as academic dishonesty (cheating, plagiarism) and/or falsification of SAT scores (having another individual sit for his examinations) to meet the NCAA's and the university's qualifications for admission, scholarship and intercollegiate competition. He receives something of value (scholarship, and potentially a good deal more) under fraudulent pretenses.

Why isn't this prosecutable as felony fraud? Why aren't those who assist him charged as accessories and/or co-conspirators?

If we really want this to stop -- and to teach gifted young athletes that they are required to comply with the same laws, regulations and policies as are all other citizen -- maybe the solution is to treat these matters criminally.

What's a five-years "ride" at Kentucky (Bledsoe) or USC (Mayo, Bush) worth? If I obtained that much through deceit, I would certainly be prosecuted. Why are such individuals treated differently?

[SCMatt33]

Let's assume a secondary school athlete knowingly and intentionally commits actions such as academic dishonesty (cheating, plagiarism) and/or falsification of SAT scores (having another individual sit for his examinations) to meet the NCAA's and the university's qualifications for admission, scholarship and intercollegiate competition. He receives something of value (scholarship, and potentially a good deal more) under fraudulent pretenses.

Why isn't this prosecutable as felony fraud? Why aren't those who assist him charged as accessories and/or co-conspirators?

If we really want this to stop -- and to teach gifted young athletes that they are required to comply with the same laws, regulations and policies as are all other citizen -- maybe the solution is to treat these matters criminally.

What's a five-years "ride" at Kentucky (Bledsoe) or USC (Mayo, Bush) worth? If I obtained that much through deceit, I would certainly be prosecuted. Why are such individuals treated differently?

I'm not sure from a legal view, but one possible reason is that cheating in high school usually occurs before he turns 18. In certain cases it does happen. Didn't Myron Piggie go to jail for defrauding Duke and others (I don't remember exactly who)

[Dukeface88]

From what I've been hearing, these kids who are already on campus and in summer school and working out, etc., would need releases from USC to avoid having to sit out a year. They signed LOI's, so they're attached to USC. Same goes for the upperclassmen. And something tells me that that old warm, cuddly teddy bear Mike Garrett is not going to be granting any releases.

I figured that might be ture of the recruits but wanted to check. As far as the upperclassmen, part of the sanctions are that they can transfer without penalty; I don't think USC has any say there. There are also a couple of recruits who apparently haven't signed their LOIs yet, including the number one ranked OT.

Assuming all of that is true, then there are 47 players now on the market (22 rising juniors, 23 rising seniors and 2 recruits). That's an enormous amount of talent

Many will stay put, and I'd guess that most who do transfer out will stay somewhere on the West Coast. Still, there are at least a few teams with oppurtunities to fill major roster holes. For a major example in our neck of the woods, Clemson probably just lost their QB to the MLB, and USC just happens to have one on the list.

[smvalkyries]

I seriously doubt that any USC upperclassman we could recruit could live up to Duke's academic standards. USC doesn't have the greatest academic reputation as it is and at that it is extremely overrated due to its significant and wealthy alumni influence. We in SoCal have learned not to hire USC grads if we can possibly avoid it-and most of us learned that the hard way LOL.

[Bluedog]

I seriously doubt that any USC upperclassman we could recruit could live up to Duke's academic standards. USC doesn't have the greatest academic reputation as it is [...]

USC's academic reputation has actually improved considerably in the last ten years. The quality of students that it gets at least has gotten consistently better. This may be because they give huge merit scholarships to all National Merit Semifinalists. That and its football and fundraising prowess certainly haven't hurt. But I wouldn't say that USC's reputation is poor at all...There are far worse schools that are football powerhouses; USC's business school is particularly strong as well. I'd agree that money is the driving factor for the increase in applicants/higher quality matriculants.

Frankly, Duke's football academic standards aren't very high. It's basically the NCAA minimum if you are super elite - we don't practice Stanford-like admissions when it comes to football for whatever reason. Very top recruits (like those that are recruited by USC) can get to Duke at the NCAA minimum ... I believe our football SAT average is around 1000 Math + Verbal based on the last time the stats were published. There are cetainly notable outliers and high-achieving students on the football team. And even those who come in without the greatest academic credentials have proven that they typically work hard in the classroom and graduate in large numbers.

[kexman]

I don't know much about the culture of the USC football team, but any school that accepted OJ Mayo deserves whatever punishment they were handed!!!

Same goes to any school (Kentucky) that hires Calipari!!!

Why only let the upperclassman out of the LOI at USC? Let all of the players bolt and watch USC start a bunch of walk-ons as punishment.

I think the bans should hit the coaches that are still in college football. Tough to hit Carroll when he is in the pros. In his interview tonight he was "shocked" at the punishment. Not so shocked to have bailed on USC a few months before the sanctions hit of course:)

[SilkyJ]

What's a five-years "ride" at Kentucky (Bledsoe) or USC (Mayo, Bush) worth? If I obtained that much through deceit, I would certainly be prosecuted. Why are such individuals treated differently?

Well I don't know about that. I've never heard of someone being prosecuted for cheating on their SATs, athlete or not, so not sure why you assume you would be.

[4decadedukie]

Well I don't know about that. I've never heard of someone being prosecuted for cheating on their SATs, athlete or not, so not sure why you assume you would be.

I expressed my thought poorly, for which I apologize. By "that much," I meant something of that dollar-value. To illustrate, if five-years at USC is worth $250K (tuition, room, board, books incidentals, fees) and an SAT or academic cheater's duplicity enabled him to revive this "package" of considerable value, why shouldn't he be prosecuted for felony fraud, as anyone else would be who fraudulently obtained $250K?

[SilkyJ]

I expressed my thought poorly, for which I apologize. By "that much," I meant something of that dollar-value. To illustrate, if five-years at USC is worth $250K (tuition, room, board, books incidentals, fees) and an SAT or academic cheater's duplicity enabled him to revive this "package" of considerable value, why shouldn't he be prosecuted for felony fraud, as anyone else would be who fraudulently obtained $250K?

Totally get your point, and it makes sense to me (no legal background, tho) but I've just never heard of such a precedent in this case. Where's the PP board when you need it?!

[bennett]

I would find it crazy if they took away Reggie Bush's Heisman. Regardless of if he wasn't supposed to be there, he still had a spectacular season on the field, a season unlike ones we've seen before. He deserved the Heisman that year, and it shouldn't be taken away from him.

[4decadedukie]

I would find it crazy if they took away Reggie Bush's Heisman. Regardless of if he wasn't supposed to be there, he still had a spectacular season on the field, a season unlike ones we've seen before. He deserved the Heisman that year, and it shouldn't be taken away from him.

With respect, I entirely -- and empathically -- disagree. Although I concur that Bush's on-field performance was spectacular and merited the Heisman, the simple fact is he was not (based on yesterday's decision) a legitimate, authorized, NCAA-sanctioned student-athlete. The Heisman honors and recognizes only student-athletes, and Bush simply was not one, any more than a pretender who carries a police badge is a cop or a want-to-be who obtains military medals is a hero.

This may seem unforgiving, so please allow me to explain further. Let us assume there is an honor that recognizes only US citizen. An individual clearly deserves this honor, but it is discovered that he is not a citizen. Therefore, despite his performance, he is precluded from receiving the award.

With this said, I very much doubt if Bush’s Heisman will revoked.

[BD80]

Looks like USC will at least lose a Heisman Trophy winner - Mike Garrett:

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/delusional-usc-ad-gone-at-end-of-the-summer-28510

When your AD stiffarms reporters (figuratively, bordering on the literal) you have issues.

Garrett is the one that let this whole mess happen, and he still doesn't seem to have a clue. Still says the rest of the world is just envious of SC.

[SCMatt33]

I would find it crazy if they took away Reggie Bush's Heisman. Regardless of if he wasn't supposed to be there, he still had a spectacular season on the field, a season unlike ones we've seen before. He deserved the Heisman that year, and it shouldn't be taken away from him.

I also have to disagree here. There are so many instances where there is absolutely no way to punish the actual guilty party and athletes who are left behind that did nothing wrong take the fall. Reggie Bush needs to feel the effect of his actions and there needs to be some kind of deterrent. Taking away his Heisman would seem like one of the easy no brainers in his case. If you want to cry for someone, cry for the juniors and seniors on USC who were never even there at the same time as Bush, yet will pay for his actions.

[SilkyJ]

I also have to disagree here. There are so many instances where there is absolutely no way to punish the actual guilty party and athletes who are left behind that did nothing wrong take the fall. Reggie Bush needs to feel the effect of his actions and there needs to be some kind of deterrent.

100% agree. Taking his Heisman is basically the only way to punish anyone who was actually guilty of something in all this.

So I guess that means he'll probably keep it and all the innocent kids on scholly right now will suffer. And all his teammates who did things right and went to class and worked hard, they'll have their nat'l championships revoked, but Reggie, he'll get to keep his Heisman.

[SCMatt33]

If you want to cry for someone, cry for the juniors and seniors on USC who were never even there at the same time as Bush, yet will pay for his actions.

So I just heard on Sportscenter that these guys apparently will not have to pay for Bush if they don't want to. All Juniors and Seniors are eligible to transfer WITHOUT sitting out a year. They even went as far as allowing other schools to now actively recruit juniors and seniors by initiating contact with them. This seems to be a fair way to punish the program without preventing individuals from having their last shot or two at a bowl game.

[Kewlswim]

So I just heard on Sportscenter that these guys apparently will not have to pay for Bush if they don't want to. All Juniors and Seniors are eligible to transfer WITHOUT sitting out a year. They even went as far as allowing other schools to now actively recruit juniors and seniors by initiating contact with them. This seems to be a fair way to punish the program without preventing individuals from having their last shot or two at a bowl game.

Hi,

One can never have too many linemen. I think I want to amend that: One can never have too many of many other positions too. So, Men of Troy, I know of this place in Durham, NC where the football is being played at a high level. YOU can help bring Duke back to a bowl game and beyond (high national rankings). Furthermore, not that I am biased or anything, but that Duke ring on your finger after graduation would be something to be proud of too!

GO DUKE!

[Dukefan1.0]

So is Auburn or OU the 2004 national champs or are they Co-Champs?

[SCMatt33]

So is Auburn or OU the 2004 national champs or are they Co-Champs?

Neither. The BCS, which has not yet stripped USC of the title because of a procedural matter, has stated that if they do take such action, the title will remain vacant.

The AP has not yet taken action. I know they can revote if they want, but I don't know if they can just make the title vacant.

[A-Tex Devil]

I would find it crazy if they took away Reggie Bush's Heisman. Regardless of if he wasn't supposed to be there, he still had a spectacular season on the field, a season unlike ones we've seen before. He deserved the Heisman that year, and it shouldn't be taken away from him.

VY would disagree :-). Reggie won the Heisman on that cutback on the sideline against Fresno St. People stopped paying attention after that.

[Double DD]

Neither. The BCS, which has not yet stripped USC of the title because of a procedural matter, has stated that if they do take such action, the title will remain vacant.

The AP has not yet taken action. I know they can revote if they want, but I don't know if they can just make the title vacant.

The AP has said that they will let the title stand since Southern Cal was allowed to play the games at the time and their ranking is based on what happens on the field only.

[smvalkyries]

Bluedog- I am sure USC academic reputation has improved especially on the east coast- I also exclude the graduate schools from my stated opinion.
I assure you I am not just colored by the sample of O.J.'s literary prowess witnessed in his televised trial- my opinion is based upon many years of experience working with USC grads in many capacities although I must admit I haven't worked with the any USC alumni who graduated within the last 7 or 8 years. My opinion is not restricted to USC athletes in any way and extends to the entire undergrad constituency. Honestly this place is on a academic par with Mike Grosso's USC (which we found ACC unacceptible 40 years ago).

[amat1129]

i couldn't be happier about this, i really hope ucla is able to scoop up a bunch of players in the aftermath of this and swing the power in los angeles.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Bluedog- I am sure USC academic reputation has improved especially on the east coast- I also exclude the graduate schools from my stated opinion.
I assure you I am not just colored by the sample of O.J.'s literary prowess witnessed in his televised trial- my opinion is based upon many years of experience working with USC grads in many capacities although I must admit I haven't worked with the any USC alumni who graduated within the last 7 or 8 years. My opinion is not restricted to USC athletes in any way and extends to the entire undergrad constituency. Honestly this place is on a academic par with Mike Grosso's USC (which we found ACC unacceptible 40 years ago).

I find your comments to be both ridiculous and untrue.
USC's admission standards today are at a par or tougher than UCLAs.
Many USC graduates are world famous - Frank Gehry, George Lucas, etc etc etc.

I have worked with and for USC graduates who were outstanding.

I think that the real problem is that there is a total disconnect between the rest of the school and athletics. While it is okay for athletes to be serious students (and some are) it is also okay for athletes not to care about school (and many don't care). My guess is that any football player who is transferring over the sanctions is transferring solely to play football and would not consider Duke.

SoCal

[roywhite]

Won't kick you while you're down, SoCal. I know you've been a loyal fan.

How is this going down in LA and with the local media? Reactions from Kiffin, Carroll?

[SoCalDukeFan]

Won't kick you while you're down, SoCal. I know you've been a loyal fan.

How is this going down in LA and with the local media? Reactions from Kiffin, Carroll?

I was out of town when the news broke so am a little out of touch.

The UCLA people seem to think it is great. My USC friends seem to be silent.

There is a certain arrogance held by many (but certainly not all) USC fans. Basically they seem to think that since no one at USC gave Bush anything and USC got no benefit from what was given to Bush and his family, then the penalty should be light. I think that they talked to each other so much over the years that they believed it. Pete Carroll created an atmosphere that this was the best place to play college football. You had Snoop Dog on the sidelines for example. The home football games were fun for players and fans. They were on TV all of the time. They went to bowl games every year. etc

To me there are a couple of major problems. One is the disconnect between the players and academics. Certainly not all players. I know of some who were very good students and some that roomed with kids of friends of mine. They were good college kids. However many were not. The fact that many of the players had no apparent academic interest is of no concern to many alumni. They just want to win. Another problem is that AD Mike Garrett is regarded as an arrogant jerk by many(including a friend of mine who is a major major contributor.) Garrett evidently does not get involved and seems to be oblivious. I mean, if you were under investigation would you hire Lane Kiffin?

For the last 10 years of so USC has had a great President who has done much for their academic standards, fund raising etc. But he has seems to have let Garrett run the athletic department. And remember, many of the alumni want to win win win and are very happy if standards are high for 98% of the student body as long as they don't affect the 2% who are winning football games.

General feeling is that Garrett has got to go.

I should see some more alums in the next few days and will let you know if I hear anything different.

SoCal

[cspan37421]

And remember, many of the alumni want to win win win and are very happy if standards are high for 98% of the student body as long as they don't affect the 2% who are winning football games

SoCal

That is a very interesting statement - I imagine it is true at most universities. But it's sobering to let that sink in and dwell on the meaning of it.

[roywhite]

That is a very interesting statement - I imagine it is true at most universities. But it's sobering to let that sink in and dwell on the meaning of it.

You know if you look back at the history of college football, I mean the beginning of it in the late 1800's...controversy erupted almost immediately about teams using "ringers" or non-students. And these were schools like Harvard, Yale, and Rutgers.

College and high-level football are odd bedfellows, but more than a century later, they're still together. Every so often, things get too far out of balance and some cheaters get punished.

[CEF1959]

Looks like USC will at least lose a Heisman Trophy winner - Mike Garrett:

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/delusional-usc-ad-gone-at-end-of-the-summer-28510



If you read Leung's entire blog entry, which is linked in the above, the attitude of the USC Athletic Department is pretty skanky. The oozing self-righteousness and attitude of denial suggest that USC still doesn't get it.

If the purpose of sanctions is to change future behavior, these sanctions were not even close to severe enough for these arrogant ay-wholes.

[Kfanarmy]

What coach really wants Mustain? He left Arkansas because he thought the offense should focus around his passing arm when the team had Darren McFadden and Felix Jones!!! His unhappiness and subsequent transfer caused a rift in the fanbase that eventually prompted a fan to file a FOI request for Houston Nutt's cellphone records, which revealed his suspicious contacts with a comely female reporter at all hours of the night. The controversy diminished Nutt's goodwill and he was eventually driven from the program.

Unless you want all your jumpoffs revealed, stay away from Mustain! :D

The other part is that Nutt hired the kid's HS coach and recruited his two best friends, then promised the Razorbacks would go to the spread if Mustain signed. Mustain signed, Nutt discovered McFadden, and changed his mind on the spread. Mustain and parents fealt they were lied to ....and they were.

[smvalkyries]

SoCal Duke Fan- I wish I had the good experience of which you speak- I have not- I am sure there must be a few excellent USC grads out there along with the monied legacy matriculators, the vast number of JC transfers (not all unqualified) and the subsidized national merit scholars. I know for a fact that USC students know how to party and party and party...
I will say that USC has one of the most loyal and powerful alumni presences I have seen and for that reason is one of the better schools in the country for average students to attend. I will also admit that USC has more than its fair share of absolutely gorgeous women- proportionately even more of those than Mike Grosso's USC. All in all a wonderful and fun place for some young people to attend. I just don't want to hire any more of them LOL.

[SoCalDukeFan]

SoCal Duke Fan- I wish I had the good experience of which you speak- I have not- I am sure there must be a few excellent USC grads out there along with the monied legacy matriculators, the vast number of JC transfers (not all unqualified) and the subsidized national merit scholars. I know for a fact that USC students know how to party and party and party...
I will say that USC has one of the most loyal and powerful alumni presences I have seen and for that reason is one of the better schools in the country for average students to attend. I will also admit that USC has more than its fair share of absolutely gorgeous women- proportionately even more of those than Mike Grosso's USC. All in all a wonderful and fun place for some young people to attend. I just don't want to hire any more of them LOL.

that most of my good experience was with grads who went there because they got full (or almost full) academic scholarships.

SoCal

[4decadedukie]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5290160

Coach Carroll’s whining polemic to ESPN can be accessed through the foregoing hyperlink. The crux of his statement is:
1. We didn’t know, we could not have known;
2. The NCAA’s sanctions are terribly harsh;
3. My departure for the Seahawks was coincidental, having nothing to do with the NCAA’s investigation and impending sanctions.

I was stunned by Carroll’s shamelessness. He was accountable for establishing an environment of ethics compliance and for knowing – and leading – his players and assistant coaches. It is obvious, he failed in these critical responsibilities. Due to his failures, innocent current student-athletes will suffer. There’s no contrition for that and none for his unwillingness/inability to make character development and ethical conduct major elements of his program – on a par with on-field performance. IMHO, that is disgraceful, although unsurprising.

[BlueandWhite]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5290160

Coach Carroll’s whining polemic to ESPN can be accessed through the foregoing hyperlink. The crux of his statement is:
1. We didn’t know, we could not have known;
2. The NCAA’s sanctions are terribly harsh;
3. My departure for the Seahawks was coincidental, having nothing to do with the NCAA’s investigation and impending sanctions.

I was stunned by Carroll’s shamelessness. He was accountable for establishing an environment of ethics compliance and for knowing – and leading – his players and assistant coaches. It is obvious, he failed in these critical responsibilities. Due to his failures, innocent current student-athletes will suffer. There’s no contrition for that and none for his unwillingness/inability to make character development and ethical conduct major elements of his program – on a par with on-field performance. IMHO, that is disgraceful, although unsurprising.


Agree totally, 100%. The USC football program over the past several years has been all about money and winning at all costs - they have been LA's pro football team, really. That's all there is to be said.

[calltheobvious]

The other part is that Nutt hired the kid's HS coach and recruited his two best friends, then promised the Razorbacks would go to the spread if Mustain signed. Mustain signed, Nutt discovered McFadden, and changed his mind on the spread. Mustain and parents fealt they were lied to ....and they were.

Exactly right. What's really interesting is that at the time, everyone thought that Mustain was a prima donna and that Nutt had done exactly the right thing given the backfield of McFadden and F. Jones. But in hindsight there's very little reason to believe that that pair couldn't have been just as successful, if not moreso, if OC Gus Malzahn had been able to run the offense he was hired to run there.

The Right Reverend Nutt indeed pulled the rug out from underneath Mustain and Malzahn. Malzahn's career is much better for it (see Auburn, by way of Tulsa), but Mustain's was derailed.

Of course one could failry argue that Mustain outkicked his coverage by transferring to USC rather than another school at which an eventual starting position would have been a certainty.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Agree totally, 100%. The USC football program over the past several years has been all about money and winning at all costs - they have been LA's pro football team, really. That's all there is to be said.

My wife went to USC and we go to the home games. They are a lot of fun and are a lot more fun with Carroll than with say Paul Hackett.

I think that Carroll tried to create an atmosphere that set USC apart as special. He had movie stars and rap stars on the sidelines. They tried to play the best teams. His goal was at least a Rose Bowl every year. I really don't think it was about money and winning at all costs. The sins of commission charged to Carroll are, in my opinion, very minor. (He had a friend watch a kicker which meant that they had too many coaches. This is hardly win at all costs.) There are no allegations that USC or a USC booster gave a player anything "extra" to come to USC.

Having said that, the sin of omission was a failure to monitor what was given by potential agents to Reggie Bush and his family. It is easy and correct to say that you can not monitor the families of 100 players who may come from all over the country. However, you don't have to. You only have a few players that are going to be attractive to agents and marketers and you should be able to monitor them. There was a letter in the LA Times a few days ago. Basically a dentist noticed a car magazine in the waiting room that had Reggie Bush's picture on the cover with his tricked out vehicle. She asked herself - Where did he get the money? Pete Carroll and company must have seen the same magazine and should have asked themselves the same question. Maybe they did not want the answer.

The penalties are obviously strong. Looking at the particular offenses they are probably harsher than handed out to other schools. However, I think, in the context of the lack of institutional control, they are probably appropriate.

SoCal

[4decadedukie]

Having said that, the sin of omission was a failure to monitor what was given by potential agents to Reggie Bush and his family. It is easy and correct to say that you can not monitor the families of 100 players who may come from all over the country. However, you don't have to. You only have a few players that are going to be attractive to agents and marketers and you should be able to monitor them. There was a letter in the LA Times a few days ago. Basically a dentist noticed a car magazine in the waiting room that had Reggie Bush's picture on the cover with his tricked out vehicle. She asked herself - Where did he get the money? Pete Carroll and company must have seen the same magazine and should have asked themselves the same question. Maybe they did not want the answer.

SoCal,

I sincerely respect your honesty, perceptiveness and willingness to assess this broad issue (throughout the last week) from more than the USC perspective. Your statement (above) is exactly right. Ethical breaches frequently involve the "sins of omission," and they are obviously more difficult to recognize because they likely are not as blatant as "sins of commission." Nevertheless, they are failures of institutional governance. I nominate you for a seat on the USC Trustees.

[El_Diablo]

Seantrel Henderson, the nation's top OL, de-committed from USC and will be playing for the Miami Hurricanes instead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/sports/ncaafootball/10henderson.html?_r=1&src=mv

[mgtr]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5290160


I was stunned by Carroll’s shamelessness. He was accountable for establishing an environment of ethics compliance and for knowing – and leading – his players and assistant coaches. It is obvious, he failed in these critical responsibilities. Due to his failures, innocent current student-athletes will suffer. There’s no contrition for that and none for his unwillingness/inability to make character development and ethical conduct major elements of his program – on a par with on-field performance. IMHO, that is disgraceful, although unsurprising.

This is the real killer -- just like in basketball, the perp goes free, while innocent (probably innocent) kids not involved in the problems pay the penalty. There is no real way to punish the coach when he leaves for the pros. But you can sure punish the school -- if it really is about money, then fine USC $100 million. Or give them a choice -- no competitive athletics in any sport for three years, but they must maintain all current scholarships, plus any player in any sport can leave with no "sit out" year. Be interesting to see what a big time private sports college such as USC would do.
Our Secretary of State has said that sanctions against Iran should "bite" (they don't but thats another problem). I think sanctions against a school should be against a school, not against the players. I think $100 million would bite most schools right where it would hurt the most. The fine should be related to the total budget of the athletic department. Most schools would not see fines anywhere that big (except Kentucky, where the fine should be $ 1 billion!!!!)
Just a thought on how to clean up the games.

[4decadedukie]

Fundamentally, I agree; a -- perhaps the -- primary intercollegiate athletics function of senior university officials (the AD and above) and the various oversight boards (such as the trustees) is to ensure that the coaches and assistants hired have the appropriate integrity-orientation and to establish unambiguous educational/academic, character development and ethical objectives for teams and student-athletes. This is the precise reason why a clear NCAA "third-rail" offense is "lack of institutional compliance," the failure to establish and sustain an environment of doing the right thing notwithstanding the potentially adverse impact on Ws and Ls.

I do not know enough about Carroll's recruitment to comment; however, it seems obvious that at some point in his tenure as USC's head coach, his focus became so glitz-, Hollywood-, and victory-orientated that neither he nor the university were willing perform the "due diligence" required to ensure that USC's football ethical environment was sound.

When Kentucky is excoriated by the NCAA for Calipari's values and lapses, I hope (although I doubt) thoughtful alumni, fans, and citizens will understand that a good deal of the blame resides with those who decided to hire Cal -- KNOWING PRECISELY WHAT THEY WERE GETTING, based on his documented performance at UMass and Memphis (among others). They wanted UK to return to glory immediately, they were willing to endorse shortcuts to expedite their goal, and eventually they will -- and they should -- pay the price for their foolish lack of character and integrity.

[roywhite]

Garrett out as AD at Southern Cal (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/07/pat-haden-replacing-mike-garrett-as-athletic-director-at-southern-cal/1). Pat Haden in and bringing in his old pal J.K. McKay to help run things.

Way overdue, but could be a good step.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I talked to an influential supporter of USC over the week-end. He said that Garrett would not last the summer with the new President. He also thinks that the current penalties are "a little harsh." His big fear (and mine) was that Lane Kiffin would get them into even more trouble.

On the surface Haden is a great choice. He is an alum, quarterback, Rhodes Scholar, and announcer. He hired his friend to oversee football - son of a coach and also a former player. They are also returning the Bush's Heisman, unretiring his jersey, and removing murals of Reggie and also OJ Mayo.

My view is that with the old regime the President focused on improved USC academically (and did a a wonderful job). He let Mike Garrett run athletics and Garrett basically hired/fired coaches but then neither interfered nor supported them. Looks like lots have changed.

SoCal

[77devil]

I talked to an influential supporter of USC over the week-end. He said that Garrett would not last the summer with the new President. He also thinks that the current penalties are "a little harsh." His big fear (and mine) was that Lane Kiffin would get them into even more trouble.

On the surface Haden is a great choice. He is an alum, quarterback, Rhodes Scholar, and announcer. He hired his friend to oversee football - son of a coach and also a former player. They are also returning the Bush's Heisman, unretiring his jersey, and removing murals of Reggie and also OJ Mayo.

My view is that with the old regime the President focused on improved USC academically (and did a a wonderful job). He let Mike Garrett run athletics and Garrett basically hired/fired coaches but then neither interfered nor supported them. Looks like lots have changed.

SoCal

Agree that Hayden should be a great AD. There's a little irony in that the son of Mike Garrett's coach at USC is being brought in to help clean up the program.

Lot's of fond memories of going to the Coliseum to watch USC and Mike Garrett. Wish it had worked out better for him.

[sagegrouse]

Agree that Hayden should be a great AD. There's a little irony in that the son of Mike Garrett's coach at USC is being brought in to help clean up the program.

Lot's of fond memories of going to the Coliseum to watch USC and Mike Garrett. Wish it had worked out better for him.

Interesting career change for Pat Haden. He has been a partner in a Southern California private equity firm, Riordan Lewis Haden (http://blogs.wsj.com/privateequity/2010/07/20/rlh-loses-the-h-haden-heads-to-usc/) for 22 years. I know at least one of the companies it has invested in, and it seemed to be a first-rate outfit.

sagegrouse

[BD80]

Agree that Hayden should be a great AD. There's a little irony in that the son of Mike Garrett's coach at USC is being brought in to help clean up the program. ...

Ah, John McKay ...

We have got to pay homage to the best retort in the history of athletic competition:

Halftime interview: McKay, disgruntled about the sloppy performance thus far, is asked how he feels about his team's execution:

"I'm in favor of it"

[JasonEvans]

They are also returning the Bush's Heisman, unretiring his jersey, and removing murals of Reggie and also OJ Mayo.

I am somewhat confused by this. Did USC have possession of the trophy won by Reggie Bush or do they have a duplicate copy of it? Is there one trophy given to the player and one given to the school?

You have to admire the steps being taken by USC to make amends for their past. It will be interesting to see how Lane Kiffin's tactics of pushing the envelope on the rules (he had a ton of "minor" incidents at Tennessee in his short time there) will go with the apparent new attitude at USC regarding NCAA compliance.

--Jason "wanna bet that Kiffin would not have been the hire if the new regime had been in place?" Evans

[Duvall]

I am somewhat confused by this. Did USC have possession of the trophy won by Reggie Bush or do they have a duplicate copy of it? Is there one trophy given to the player and one given to the school?

The latter.


You have to admire the steps being taken by USC to make amends for their past. It will be interesting to see how Lane Kiffin's tactics of pushing the envelope on the rules (he had a ton of "minor" incidents at Tennessee in his short time there) will go with the apparent new attitude at USC regarding NCAA compliance.

--Jason "wanna bet that Kiffin would not have been the hire if the new regime had been in place?" Evans

It's hard to get too excited over painting over murals. (How will SC survive without monuments of the OJ Mayo era!) And I didn't see anything about removing reminders of the 2005 BCS championship, only Bush.

Admirable would be making a full break with the Carroll years by tossing out Kiffin now, instead of waiting for him to cheat. Again.

[roywhite]

Admirable would be making a full break with the Carroll years by tossing out Kiffin now, instead of waiting for him to cheat. Again.

Pete waves from Seattle in the general direction of L.A.

Had to chuckle at this rip on Pete from an ND fan. (http://houserockbuilt.blogspot.com/2006/11/if-you-dont-hate-pete-carroll-there-is.html)

[4decadedukie]

AP reports that USC has been stripped of the 2004 Grantland Rice Trophy, awarded annually by the Football Writers Association to the nation's top college football team.

[Lord Ash]

I was watching "Hard Knocks," and HBO show that is following the NY Jets training camp, and when one of the rookies from USC was having a hard time, one of the vets wondered if it was because the rookie had taken a pay cut.

Even the coaches laughed.

[left_hook_lacey]

I was watching "Hard Knocks," and HBO show that is following the NY Jets training camp, and when one of the rookies from USC was having a hard time, one of the vets wondered if it was because the rookie had taken a pay cut.

Even the coaches laughed.

I saw that too. I was watching with a couple of my neighbors as we were getting ready for our fantasy draft. Only my brother and I got it at first, but after explaining it to the others, it got a hearty laugh from the room including the only USC fan in the room.

How about the game they played......"King Ugly"

[SoCalDukeFan]

Evidently USC came in one spot above UCLA.

I do need to remind everyone that there have been no major allegations that Pete Carroll did anything wrong in recruiting. USC is located near Hollywood. It has a great film school with many famous alums, some of whom are fans of the team. I personally have no problems with PC exploiting that to his advantage. However providing access requires monitoring responsibility and that was missed.

SoCal