NBA Finals Game 7: Lakers 83, Celtics 79

[pfrduke]

Since there are no remaining Devils who are likely to see minutes in the finals (barring, perhaps, Kendrick Perkins' seventh technical of the playoffs), thought I'd get a separate thread going for the Celtics-Lakers finals. I'm a native Southern Californian, and although far from a diehard Lakers fan, geography is enough to have my rooting edge go in that direction. Kobe was ridiculous during the Suns series, and it will be interesting to see if he can hold that performance against a Celtics team that is physically much tougher (and will beat Kobe up any time he comes within 5-10 feet of the hoop). Similarly, it will be interesting to watch whether Ron Artest can slow down Paul Pierce, who was so instrumental in beating the Lakers (thanks to torching VladRad and Vujacic) in 2008.

Finally, one of the more ridiculous statistics in sports could be on the line if the Lakers win tonight - Phil Jackson has never lost a series in which his team has gone up 1-0; he's an astounding 47-0 in such situations. On the whole, a Jackson-coached team has only once lost after getting a series lead - 2006 in the first round to Phoenix, when they lost game 1, won 2-4, and then lost 5-7.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

WOW thats an outstanding stat about Phil Jacksons record when winning the 1st game. I think the teams are pretty evenly matched but i Give Boston the PG edge in Rondo playing out of this world lately!
But i honestly think Kobe is out for blood because of what happened to the favored Lakers in 2008. If you figure in that the Lakers dont have to win in Boston and Boston has to win atleast on in LA id give the Lakers a slight edge with having home court advantage

I got Lakers in 6 :D

LAKERS AND DUKE GOING BACK TO BACK BABY!

[superdave]

The Lakers have out hustled the Cs tonight. Cs looked lethargic at times.

Gasol and Garnett have basically traded for the other's 2008 Finals level of dominance, giving LA a big edge this year.

[DukieBoy]

It looked like the Lakers wanted it more tonight. Like they were embarrassed by the C's last time they played in the Finals or something

[Osiagledknarf]

This game was a complete and utter disgrace.

The Celtics came out with no intesty, Ray Allen getting into early foul trouble really killed whatever they had going on the offensive end, and the Lakers length was a huge factor in the middle shutting down Kevin Garnett and Glen Davis off the bench.

The have one of these stinkers in the 3 rounds, like game 3 vs. the Cavs at home and game 5 in Orlando. If they have any chance of winning this series they gotta take Game 2 or this is done, coput, over, whatever expression you can use.

They need to use Rasheed Wallace more, period. You have Andrew Bynum with a bad knee and they were not making him move at all tonight... They need to have KG and Rasheed in the game at the same time to allow them to free up the lane for Rondo, and when he is the game Tony Allen to drive to the cup.

They need to get tougher around the glass as well. Perkins with 3 rebounds is totally and completely unacceptable.. KG might as well taken a trip to Mailbu tonight because he looked like Joe Forte tonight and was as tough as a pillow.

They don't win game 2, you can kiss the series goodbye.

[superdave]

I think the Cs foul trouble was due to lack of intensity. If you are not urgent and quick, you're a step slow and you reach.

They are also banged up a bit, which seemed to keep Rondo from atatcking. He can get into the lane any time he wants, and he ought to be a one man fast break at times. But not last night...

Wallace and Garnett are just old compared to Gasol, Odom and Bynum. They basically have to pull their man out of the lane and hit their jumpers, which didnt happen.

I think we will see more Big Baby and Nate Robinson in this series than expected because they are quick enough to put pressure on the Lakers.

Artest is a really bad matchup for Pierce. He brings out the worst in Pierce - pressing and pettiness, one on one mentality, pushing/grabbing. Pierce needs clearouts and to get the ball on the move. But it's hard to do that when your defender is out-muscling you and your PG is not creating well.

Lastly, Gasol has increased his playoff averages by 4 and 2 since the 2008 playoffs. I suspect Garnett's #s have gone in the opposite direction. That's a big deal.

If the Lakers win Game 2, it's going to be a 5-6 game cakewalk...sadly.

[Osiagledknarf]

I think the Cs foul trouble was due to lack of intensity. If you are not urgent and quick, you're a step slow and you reach.

They are also banged up a bit, which seemed to keep Rondo from atatcking. He can get into the lane any time he wants, and he ought to be a one man fast break at times. But not last night...

Wallace and Garnett are just old compared to Gasol, Odom and Bynum. They basically have to pull their man out of the lane and hit their jumpers, which didnt happen.

I think we will see more Big Baby and Nate Robinson in this series than expected because they are quick enough to put pressure on the Lakers.

Artest is a really bad matchup for Pierce. He brings out the worst in Pierce - pressing and pettiness, one on one mentality, pushing/grabbing. Pierce needs clearouts and to get the ball on the move. But it's hard to do that when your defender is out-muscling you and your PG is not creating well.

Lastly, Gasol has increased his playoff averages by 4 and 2 since the 2008 playoffs. I suspect Garnett's #s have gone in the opposite direction. That's a big deal.

If the Lakers win Game 2, it's going to be a 5-6 game cakewalk...sadly.

I have to disagree with you about Artest and Pierce. This isn't the Paul Pierce of 2004 or 2005 when he was by far the best defender in the league with Bruce Bowen. Paul Pierce can create offense against him.. He had some open looks last night that he just didn't knock down.. Paul Pierce will be a factor going forward.

Glen Davis matches up horribly with this Lakers team. He isn't big enough to defend against this Lakers front line, and would have a nightmare of a time scoring against them. He did not get much playing time in the 2008 finals because of this and really struggled last night because of this... He will not be a factor at all in this series.

Do you really expect KG to be as bad as he was last night? He didn't hit the jumpers he usually hits and had his worst game with the Celtics by far. Gasol got the best of him last night, but I don't think it will be as nearly as lopsided going forward. Gasol has improved since 2008 and one of the better post players in the league, but Garnett has been very effective for most of these playoffs.

I think this series will still go 6 or 7 and be very competitive. The Celtics have one of these stinkers once every playoff series. I wouldn't call this over quite yet.

[superdave]

Does anyone else think that Gasol is Laettner 2.0 or 3.0 or something like that? They have similar skill sets but Gasol is a much better athlete.

Rondo is more aggressive tonight which means we may have a real Finals.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Does anyone else think that Gasol is Laettner 2.0 or 3.0 or something like that? They have similar skill sets but Gasol is a much better athlete.

Rondo is more aggressive tonight which means we may have a real Finals.

"much better athlete" .... are you kidding? Please tell me that you are too young to have seen Laettner in person since at best their athleticism is a push. I don't even think that can be argued.

[jipops]

OUCH! TERRIBLE play by Shelden at the end of the half (or just great play by Kobe). Lakers right back in it. We may not see Shelden back on the floor in the 2nd half.

[superdave]

"much better athlete" .... are you kidding? Please tell me that you are too young to have seen Laettner in person since at best their athleticism is a push. I don't even think that can be argued.

Disagree. Laettner had great footwork but was not a great athlete.

[Osiagledknarf]

Sugar Ray lighting up!! All I can say is wow.

[DukieBoy]

If I wasn't a Lakers fan, I'd love Ray Allen's performance a lot more. I respect it, but absolutely hate it

[moonpie23]

i hate both of these teams....so whoever wins, i get to love that one of them lost...

[superdave]

Rondo took over with 5 minutes to go. I thought Kobe would have. 16-3 C's run to close it out.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I didn't watch the whole game, but from what I watched the officiating was very poor tonight. Bad calls going both ways.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Disagree. Laettner had great footwork but was not a great athlete.

What are your criteria for this comparison?

Foot speed ... both of them relatively slow moving but good enough to run the floor

Jumping ... seems about even to me

Hand-Eye coordination ... Laettner clearly the better outside shooter, Gasol a better back to the basket player (Ky game in 1992 notwithstanding :), neither one is taking many off the dribble

What else might you compare to judge athleticism?

[Big Pappa]

What are your criteria for this comparison?

Foot speed ... both of them relatively slow moving but good enough to run the floor

Jumping ... seems about even to me

Hand-Eye coordination ... Laettner clearly the better outside shooter, Gasol a better back to the basket player (Ky game in 1992 notwithstanding :), neither one is taking many off the dribble

What else might you compare to judge athleticism?

I have to agree that Laettner was the better athlete. Gasol has great feet, but watching him go by guys like Perkins, Big Baby, and an older and slower KG is no way to judge him.

[superdave]

I have to agree that Laettner was the better athlete. Gasol has great feet, but watching him go by guys like Perkins, Big Baby, and an older and slower KG is no way to judge him.

Did you guys see Gasol take a hard dribble under the basket last night and dunk one-handed on the other side of the rim?

Laettner never did that. I dont think he had that kind of lift.

L.A. should start running their offense through Gasol in the high post. I dont think the C's front line can handle him. He almost fouled out a couple guy last night.

[CDu]

Did you guys see Gasol take a hard dribble under the basket last night and dunk one-handed on the other side of the rim?

Laettner never did that. I dont think he had that kind of lift.

L.A. should start running their offense through Gasol in the high post. I dont think the C's front line can handle him. He almost fouled out a couple guy last night.

Gasol is one of the most talented big men in the game today. His array of skills around and away from the basket and his combination of height and athleticism are just amazing. He's gone largely under the radar in his career, partly because he spent much of his career in purgatory (Memphis) and the other part playing second fiddle to Bryant in LA.

LA has two dominant offensive players in this series (Bryant and Gasol). They should use both of them as much as possible. When they get both of those players going, they're really hard to stop.

[greybeard]

What was with Doc's running out on the floor to force the game's being stopped. Why not just give the guy a whistle. Was that within the rules, if anyone knows?

Seems to me it was a possible game changer. If it wasn't within the rules, and please if there is a divinity tell me it was not, then does David do anything about this? Probably not, ratings and all that.

[muzikfrk75]

What was with Doc's running out on the floor to force the game's being stopped. Why not just give the guy a whistle. Was that within the rules, if anyone knows?

Seems to me it was a possible game changer. If it wasn't within the rules, and please if there is a divinity tell me it was not, then does David do anything about this? Probably not, ratings and all that.

Doc will probably get a warning from Stern, but that's about it.

[superdave]

Doc will probably get a warning from Stern, but that's about it.

Doc was trying to call a timeout and eventually got it. I dont see anything wrong because the refs granted the timeout pretty quickly, as in before he was on the court. It's not like he got in a player's way.

Shoot, Gary Williams is often Maryland's 6th man...

[Big Pappa]

What was with Doc's running out on the floor to force the game's being stopped. Why not just give the guy a whistle. Was that within the rules, if anyone knows?


Should have just pulled a Jason Kidd:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB8KtMOnGvY

[DukieBoy]

What was with Doc's running out on the floor to force the game's being stopped. Why not just give the guy a whistle. Was that within the rules, if anyone knows?

Seems to me it was a possible game changer. If it wasn't within the rules, and please if there is a divinity tell me it was not, then does David do anything about this? Probably not, ratings and all that.

As a Laker fan, I was livid about this. Is it not illegal for a coach to run onto the floor?

[superdave]

As a Laker fan, I was livid about this. Is it not illegal for a coach to run onto the floor?

Depends on when exactly the timeout was granted. Seeing as how the refs granted the timeout and did not seem to think twice about it, I guess it was ok.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

As a Laker fan,

May the LORD have mercy upon your soul.

[theAlaskanBear]

May the LORD have mercy upon your soul.

I don't think they will even except him in hell...not enough circles for that.

[superdave]

Only the two most storied pro teams ever and crickets on this board. Wake up people.

Derek Fisher played his heart out tonight, which is currently putting LA over the top. KG's big night not enough to overcome Ray Allen's 0-fer.

Seriously, this is intense basketball of the highest level. Wake up DBR.

[Greg_Newton]

Only the two most storied pro teams ever and crickets on this board. Wake up people.

Derek Fisher played his heart out tonight, which is currently putting LA over the top. KG's big night not enough to overcome Ray Allen's 0-fer.

Seriously, this is intense basketball of the highest level. Wake up DBR.

I find myself not really caring about this series whatsoever. I don't really like either team, and there's not really an interesting storyline on either side. They're both veteran teams with entitled fan bases who have won a championship in the past 2 years.

I like watching Rondo and Kobe, but... meh...

[Big Pappa]

I find myself not really caring about this series whatsoever. I don't really like either team, and there's not really an interesting storyline on either side. They're both veteran teams with entitled fan bases who have won a championship in the past 2 years.

I like watching Rondo and Kobe, but... meh...

I agree and I don't really like being told to wake up. Sure it's good basketball, they are professional basketball players. I really can't stand either one of these teams, and I get no pleasure out of watching Sheed and Ron jaw at each other while Big Baby flexes for the crowd after making a layup.

[-jk]

Only the two most storied pro teams ever and crickets on this board. Wake up people.

Derek Fisher played his heart out tonight, which is currently putting LA over the top. KG's big night not enough to overcome Ray Allen's 0-fer.

Seriously, this is intense basketball of the highest level. Wake up DBR.

So rather than just telling everyone to "wake up", how 'bout giving us a compelling argument and convincing us we should care?

-jk

[superdave]

Here's a few reasons, as if basketball fans need to be talked into watching basketball.

A- Next Duke basketball game will be in November so this could be the filler to your lump crab meat.

B- Lakers vs. Celtics is a storied rivalry. And the intensity has been pretty good in games 1-3.

C- Kobe is a top 10 all time player; Garnett, Pierce and Allen are likely top 50 players.

D- It's basketball and this is a basketball board.

[Billy Dat]

superdave - I am with you, the series has been great and I have been enjoying the heck out of it. There are many college hoops fans who don't like the pro game for myriad reasons, and vice versa. If someone is an NBA fan, they are watching the Finals so I think they'll weigh in on this thread eventually.

Fisher was great last night, as was KG. The Lakers should win the series on youth and talent, but Boston's D and cagey veteran skills really make it a toss up. The Celtics just couldn't get that bucket they needed last night down the stretch...kind of like Butler never taking a lead down the stretch in the NC game.

Once Big Baby was checking Gasol, they very wisely kept getting him the ball and let him go to work. He had some big hoops down the stretch, but it was clearly Fisher's game. While I am rooting for the Lakers by default out of dislike for all Boston sports teams, I hope the Celtics win Thursday to extend the series. If Shelden were getting any run, my rooting interest might be different.

[SilkyJ]

Here's a few reasons, as if basketball fans need to be talked into watching basketball.

A- Next Duke basketball game will be in November so this could be the filler to your lump crab meat.


Who likes filler in their crabcakes?

College ball is way different than pro, and most around here prefer the former. Go figure.

[theAlaskanBear]

I've watched every game so far...but because they end so late, I just dont have the energy for posting...

I was really pulling for the Celtics to win one after stealing a win in LA...now the advantage is decidedly in the Lakers favor.

As good as Ray Allen was on Sunday, he was that bad last night. Unlike the Magic...the C's won't win with just ONE player having a good game while the others are mediocre...they need at least 2 of the stars clicking in every game to have a chance...and the Celtics came out the beginning of the game just beautifully...too bad.

[DukieBoy]

Derek Fisher is one classy guy. For those that didn't see, he scored 11 points in the fourth quarter (he was only averaging somewhere around 8 for the playoffs) and had a very emotional post-game interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVQdy-jPBV8)

[greybeard]

KG had a great game, only he missed several snow birds, one down the stretch when it really hurt, heck, they all hurt. So how does a player of KG's stature miss such shots, the easiest shots in basketball. Because he really does not know how to take them, is how.

Now, before you get your underwear or bunched up, hear me out. Five years ago those "shots" would have been flushed, dunked, bamb over. But, KG is five years older and his legs were tired and he had to chose something else. He was relatively straight on to the basket and he chose what seemed to him the most logical course--just loof it over the rim. Only that shot is a very tough one, especially if one's legs are tired, and the much more reliable shot, even from straight on in front of the rim, is off the backboard.

Why is the shot off the backboard much more reliable? Simple, you have a much broader range of force to operate within. Slam it hard and it will go in, loft it soft and it will go in. With tired legs, the backboard is your friend. Just ask Fisher. But, KG, for all his experience, for all his greatness, for all his will to win, did not know that. He therefore was left to rely on tired legs and then on a hair-trigger muscle in his forearm to try to pull off what all of a sudden becomes a very tough shot.

By the way, there are any number of other pros who do not have access to the backboard from square in the middle. One who comes immediately to mind is Howard, what with that jump hook of his. Compare that shot to Russell's hooks with either hand coming to the front of the rim from the side of the lane, and there is no comparison.

I'd have to see, but I doubt that Walton took a single shot in that perfect game against Memphis that did not touch the backboard unless he literally dropped it in from just outside and way above the rim.

The difference between the two teams is one team's scorer in that game, Fisher, knew how to use the backboard and the other team's scorer, KG, sadly didn't.

[muzikfrk75]

Derek Fisher is one classy guy. For those that didn't see, he scored 11 points in the fourth quarter (he was only averaging somewhere around 8 for the playoffs) and had a very emotional post-game interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVQdy-jPBV8)

Fisher had some killer plays in the 4th quarter last night. The talk of Rondo being the best PG in the league has quieted down, as it should. I think Boston wins on Thursday.

Side note: I'm not a fan of the 2-3-2 format.

[MChambers]

I'd have to see, but I doubt that Walton took a single shot in that perfect game against Memphis that did not touch the backboard unless he literally dropped it in from just outside and way above the rim.
Almost perfect. He was 21 of 22.

[greybeard]

Side note: I'm not a fan of the 2-3-2 format.

Now that you mention it, me neither.

[MChambers]

Now that you mention it, me neither.

It makes no sense to use a 2-2-1-1-1 format for the rest of the playoffs, then switch to 2-3-2. I guess they do it for tradition, but I don't like it.

[CDu]

It makes no sense to use a 2-2-1-1-1 format for the rest of the playoffs, then switch to 2-3-2. I guess they do it for tradition, but I don't like it.

It's not even all that traditional. The NBA switched to the 2-3-2 format for the Finals in the mid-80s.

[Cali-Duke]

It's not even all that traditional. The NBA switched to the 2-3-2 format for the Finals in the mid-80s.

I'm pretty sure the rationale was to limit travel time. In earlier rounds it is west vs west or east vs east so travel isn't too bad. But if you are traveling for west vs east in a 2 2 1 1 1 format, players may just be tired from going back and forth across the country so often

[greybeard]

I'm pretty sure the rationale was to limit travel time. In earlier rounds it is west vs west or east vs east so travel isn't too bad. But if you are traveling for west vs east in a 2 2 1 1 1 format, players may just be tired from going back and forth across the country so often

They could space the games but that would take away from the dramatic development, the theater of the Championship round I suppose. In the semis, there is a game every night or just about because there are two seven game series going on. They'd probably lose some viewership with longer spacing.

[Newton_14]

I'm pretty sure the rationale was to limit travel time. In earlier rounds it is west vs west or east vs east so travel isn't too bad. But if you are traveling for west vs east in a 2 2 1 1 1 format, players may just be tired from going back and forth across the country so often

Bingo. That is the exact reason they switched to the 2-3-2 format. To cut down on travel costs and save the players from the effects of jet lag. It makes sense, but it does seem to give a slight edge to the team without homecourt advantage.

Especially given that in 7 game series, Game 5 is a critical game. In fairness the team with homecourt advantage should have the homecourt in Game 5.

I doubt they change it though.

[Jderf]

College ball is way different than pro, and most around here prefer the former. Go figure.

Just wondering, is there a thread on NBA vs. NCAA basketball? I'm sure it's been discussed around here before, and I'd like to see what people think, but the search engine just hasn't been working for me.

[DukieBoy]

Now that you mention it, me neither.

The team with home-court advantage could lose one game at home and be screwed like this year's Lakers. Get a bad road team against a good home team and it's entirely unfair.

But the Lakers won and Paul Pierce looks like an idiot with his "We're not coming back to LA" declaration to the Staples Center on Sunday.

Although, the Lakers could win the next 3 and they won't return to the Staples Center :)

[pfrduke]

Just wondering, is there a thread on NBA vs. NCAA basketball? I'm sure it's been discussed around here before, and I'd like to see what people think, but the search engine just hasn't been working for me.

I recall such a thread from way back in the day, but I'm not sure there's been one since this incarnation of the boards (i.e., since 2/07).

[muzikfrk75]

So....who wins tonight? I think that the Celtics will bounce back. Pierce and Allen will play better. However Kobe may play better than last game as well...

[Osiagledknarf]

So....who wins tonight? I think that the Celtics will bounce back. Pierce and Allen will play better. However Kobe may play better than last game as well...

I do as well. To think about how bad the Celtics were offensively the other night and yet were in the game speaks volumes. I think they bounce back with a double digit win tonight and then go in a make or break game 5.

[DukieBoy]

I do as well. To think about how bad the Celtics were offensively the other night and yet were in the game speaks volumes. I think they bounce back with a double digit win tonight and then go in a make or break game 5.

This whole series defies logic. Allen goes 7-7 in the first half and sets a Finals record for shooting and the Lakers have the lead with 5 minutes left

Allen and Pierce forget to show up in game 3 and it's a 1 point game with about 3 minutes left.

[DukieInBrasil]

Celtics win, Shelden doesn't play at all, for the 3rd time in 4 games. Big Baby had a big game tho', so it's not a surprise that Shel didn't play.

[Billy Dat]

This series has been great so far, every night it is a different story. Last night, the Celtics second team of Big Baby, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen and Rasheed, along with Ray Allen, took a tie game at the start of the 4th quarter and pushed out to a 10+ lead and held that lead, even against the Lakers starters, until there were 3 minutes left in the game. The Celtics kind of reminded me of this year's Duke team in that they were owning the offensive boards. Plus, their bigs couldn't contain Big Baby and their guards couldn't stay in front of Nate. I think Ric Bucher made an interesting point via Tweet...since Bynum is banged up, the match-up is eerily similar to 2008 and we know how that turned out. Great series so far!

[bennett]

LEt's hear what you have to say about this year's NBA Finals here.

[superdave]

LEt's hear what you have to say about this year's NBA Finals here.

If Odom plays 35 minutes and Bynum the remaining 13, then the Lakers advantages inside are gone. Kobe would have to return to Gold Medal Game Kobe to win this series.

Sadly the level of performance has been sloppy and has not matched the intensity. All the big names seem too old to play more than 10-15 great minutes at a time.

[SilkyJ]

The Celtics' bench was clearly the story last night, but I can't help but notice one small thing that JVG keeps bringing up: the way KG rebounds with one hand. He is going after the ball with one hand every time trying to tip it to himself or a teammate and he ends up losing that battle 75% of the time.

I'm telling you, watch KG rebound in the next couple games, and watch how many time he goes for it with one hand and does not secure it. Its killing his team right now.

[hq2]

....and as for our man Shelden, not much to say right now. He didn't help himself in game 2 with that stupid pass that Kobe turned into a 3 pointer right before half time. I still think we may see him, however, since both Perk and Rasheed are one technical foul each from having to sit a game. I'd say even money one or the other gets one in the next one or two games. In that case, Shelden would get 15 minutes or more.

[theAlaskanBear]

It makes no sense to use a 2-2-1-1-1 format for the rest of the playoffs, then switch to 2-3-2. I guess they do it for tradition, but I don't like it.

My problem is not the format, but the amount of time between games!! If teams dont have to travel, then there should only be ONE day between games. Traveling: 2 days.

[hurleyfor3]

The 2-3-2 format was first used in the 1985 NBA World Championship after Red Auerbach complained about the travel during the 1984 series. I guess Red should have been careful what he asked for, although the Lakers probably would have won in '85 anyway. The travel for 2-2-1-1-1 is really an issue only when the Finals has teams on both coasts.

[Big Pappa]

This whole series defies logic. Allen goes 7-7 in the first half and sets a Finals record for shooting.

And hasn't hit one since.

[Indoor66]

And hasn't hit one since.

Actually he went 8 for 9 in that game. His more recent failures can be attributed to better defense and dealing better with the picks set for Allen. He ain't getting the same shots he got.

[Osiagledknarf]

Actually he went 8 for 9 in that game. His more recent failures can be attributed to better defense and dealing better with the picks set for Allen. He ain't getting the same shots he got.

I disagree here.. I think he had some very good looks in Game 3 and 4 and haven't knocked them down. I have seen this from Ray Allen before. He is like a lot of shooters, hot and cold. If the Celtics are going to win this series, they will need him and Paul Pierce to contribute more at the offensive end. Pierce has been outstanding defensively, but has been non existence on the offensive end at times. This will have to change for them to win this series. Let's hope Shrek and Donkey can do there thing again tonight and give the Celtics a 3-2 series lead going back to LA.:D

[greybeard]

Bynum and how the game is refereed in that order. If Bynum is functional, the refs matter a lot less. If he isn't, I'm not sure even if LA gets the refereeing it wants, it wins, but, if it doesn't, it has little chance. (I think that this hangs together.)

[Newton_14]

Question to the experts..

Why is the NBA opposite of college in that the teams offensive end in the first halve is in front of their bench, rather than being on offense in front of your bench in the 2nd halve?

Not a big thing but I would prefer being on offense in front of my bench in the 2nd halve.

Side note: That was a horrible call of the foul on Pierce on the 3 point attempt by the 68 year old Fisher...

[jipops]

With Bynum reduced to a nearly non-functioning role with his knee, Boston seems to have a grip on this series. The Lakers have zero ability to defend them now and their only offense is for Kobe to make a string of his impossible shots.

Kobe may be another in a long line of Lakers who cannot beat the Celtics.

[muzikfrk75]

Kobe's third quarter was one for the ages.

[moonpie23]

Kobe's third quarter was one for the ages.

too bad there was a 4th qtr to play....

[Duke79UNLV77]

It appears that they have botched 2 calls in the series now despite taking the time to review instant replay. The Gasol-Garnett tipping the ball out of bounds play and the shot clock violation.

[DukieBoy]

It appears that they have botched 2 calls in the series now despite taking the time to review instant replay. The Gasol-Garnett tipping the ball out of bounds play and the shot clock violation.

Both are calls that swayed towards Celtics and led to Celtic victories. Yet LA gets all the calls

[jipops]

It appears that they have botched 2 calls in the series now despite taking the time to review instant replay. The Gasol-Garnett tipping the ball out of bounds play and the shot clock violation.

The shot clock violation (or non-violation) was un-reviewable by NBA rule - obviously a terrible rule with review-ability in effect.

[hurleyfor3]

Why is the NBA opposite of college in that the teams offensive end in the first halve is in front of their bench, rather than being on offense in front of your bench in the 2nd halve?


Partial answer: In college the visiting team chooses which basket to shoot towards in the first half. It's happened in Cameron where the visiting coach chose to shoot in front of his own bench in the first half.

Let's make this a trivia question: Who knows one such instance during the K era, when we shot *away* from our bench in Cameron in the second half? Has definitely happened at least once.

[Billy Dat]

The Celtics turnaround from the last 15 games of the season to being on the brink of a title is amazing. Their run reminds me a little of Duke's run because (A) it was kind of unexpected (not based on the pre-season rankings but based on how they looked in April) and (B) they are really cleaning up on the offensive boards. Pierce is a great closer and he definitely smells blood. I think he'd love to close out the Lakers back in his hometown of LA.

[superdave]

Bynum last night - 32 minutes, 3-6 FGs, 1 rebound (!), -12 in the +/- category. Ouch.

Bynum's immobility seems to be swinging the series in a big way.

In game 4, Bynum was 12 minutes, 1-2 FGs, 3 rebounds and a +1.

Both were Celtic victories.

[LSanders]

I guess this is the best place to ask this question ...

For those more learned than I regarding NBA post play, why has Shel basically disappeared in the League? He seemed to be off to a decent start in Atlanta. Then ... The door closed.

Now, it seems that if he ever does get in a game, he's only a step or two in front of the guys with the big brooms. Why has he had such a difficult time taking his game to the next level?

[allenmurray]

My own (admittedly unlearned) observation is that he is behind guys with either more experience or better offensive moves. He should not have taken career advice from Dave Loggins.

[DukieBoy]

Bynum last night - 32 minutes, 3-6 FGs, 1 rebound (!), -12 in the +/- category. Ouch.

Bynum's immobility seems to be swinging the series in a big way.

In game 4, Bynum was 12 minutes, 1-2 FGs, 3 rebounds and a +1.

Both were Celtic victories.

Bynum's +/-

Game 1 - +11 (Lakers win)
Game 2 - +1 (Celtics win)
Game 3 - 0 (Lakers win)
Game 4 - +1 (Celtics win)
Game 5 - -12 (Celtics win)

It's not very consistent, but up until last night, Bynum had a positive result every game.

[superdave]

I guess this is the best place to ask this question ...

For those more learned than I regarding NBA post play, why has Shel basically disappeared in the League? He seemed to be off to a decent start in Atlanta. Then ... The door closed.

Now, it seems that if he ever does get in a game, he's only a step or two in front of the guys with the big brooms. Why has he had such a difficult time taking his game to the next level?

My take is that Shelden's game is basically that of a traditional center, but at 6'9'' and 250 he's only the size of a power forward. And for a PF he's lacking a solid face-up game, consistent jumper and leaping ability. I think he can get his jumper to be more consistent and eventually crack a team's 8-man rotation because he is very skilled defensively.

[Duke Mom]

Celtics played a fantastic game last night. Great on offense and defense. Kobe made a valiant effort, but didn't get enough scoring help from his teammates. Pierce and Rondo (who I keep calling Rolando!) were outstanding, heck - all the Celtics were. So exciting to watch.

[Jeff Frosh]

I would be happy to see Shelden become the 3rd Blue Devil to win an NBA championship ring (regardless of his participation, or lack thereof, in playoff games), but I find it virtually impossible to root for Rasheed Wallace's team.

[allenmurray]

I would be happy to see Shelden become the 3rd Blue Devil to win an NBA championship ring (regardless of his participation, or lack thereof, in playoff games), but I find it virtually impossible to root for Rasheed Wallace's team.

It is a real dilema. It was weird to root for a team (I was rooting for the Celtics) while at the same time rooting against one of their players.

[Jeff Frosh]

It is a real dilema. It was weird to root for a team (I was rooting for the Celtics) while at the same time rooting against one of their players.

That is why I really wanted the Suns to win it!

[greybeard]

Phil seems to have taken action out of integrity with the central strength of his power to positively influence men to play like a team and it might be costing the Lakers big time. Bill Cartright is quoted in Sacred Hoops that what distinguished the Bulls from other teams was that on the Bulls, even defensive specialists like I believe the guys name was Meyers were expected to shoot and shoot again if the other teams left them. Bill said that that was the single empowering force, a one-for-all-and-all-for-one type thing, that distinguished the Bulls and lead them to Championships.

It seemed that that mindset lead to players to be proactive and step up in extraordinary ways throughout Jackson's run--Kerr's last-section championship shot when he was 0 for something like 100 up until that point. It also seemed to me that that precise principle of empowerment has been at play throughout LA's run this season. Fisher's remarkable 11 point fourth quarter in game 3, and, now here is the point of it, Artest's rebound of Kobe's miss to win it all against the Suns. For those of you who do not recall, Artest had just seconds before stepped into a pass from I think it was Gasol who had just rebounded an Artest miss and let fly with a 3.

People went nuts, said Artest was an idiot. However, the clock was going to give the Suns another possession and Artest had decided that he was going to step up and make a play that would end it. Exactly the type of mindset that allows Phil's teams to perform remarkably. In fact, it was exactly that same mindset that lead Artest a moment or so later to have the presence of mind to keep an eye on the ball and run to the short-side on Kobe's miss while the rest of the players on the court were all watching and even though 90 percent of rebounds from the spot Kobe shot from come off on the long, not the short, side.

It is obvious that Phil, in a breach of faith with not just Artest but with the ethos that drives the bus, has shut Artest down. No more shots from outside, don't even look to work for them because that is not what we want from you appears to have been the directive from on high.

Phil now has a guy who perhaps feels betrayed by the principles that might have lead him to LA in the first place and genuinely appears completely adrift in his play. Artest can guard no one and is doing nothing on either end. I do not think he is pouting. I think that he is lost, and that it ain't his fault.

The Zen Master has finally met his match as a builder of men's souls, as the maker of wholeness that allows men, in the context of surrendering parts of themselves to the good of the team, only to come out as the complete individuals, if only for the moments on the court, that we all strive to be. Yeap, the Zen Master has met his match and that person is He.

Rivers is the better team builder this series and has emerged to my mind the better coach. Hail the new Zen Master. Quite a job, Doc, quite a job.

[sagegrouse]

Rivers is the better team builder this series and has emerged to my mind the better coach. Hail the new Zen Master. Quite a job, Doc, quite a job.

And now, Zen Master, one more task if you please. It concerns your son....

sagegrouse

[Billy Dat]

Another way to look at it is that Bynum was hurt in 08 (Celtics win), Garnett was hurt in 09 (Lakers win) and Bynum is hurt again this year (Celtics?).

[Newton_14]

Phil seems to have taken action out of integrity with the central strength of his power to positively influence men to play like a team and it might be costing the Lakers big time. Bill Cartright is quoted in Sacred Hoops that what distinguished the Bulls from other teams was that on the Bulls, even defensive specialists like I believe the guys name was Meyers were expected to shoot and shoot again if the other teams left them. Bill said that that was the single empowering force, a one-for-all-and-all-for-one type thing, that distinguished the Bulls and lead them to Championships.

If they indeed end up losing (it is not over yet) my thoughts are the Lakers lost this series last summer. Bringing on Artest, and losing the young kid (I believe it was Ariza?) has back fired imo. Last year Phil went to Odom for long stretches late in the game over Ariza. This year he has Odom sitting while Artest makes a mess. Not having a healthy Bynum is hurting but, sitting Odom in favor of Artest is killing them to me.

But I am all for it as I am pulling for the Celtics... I confess that the finals is the first time I have watched an entire game start to finish all year, but dang I am impressed with Rondo. Dude is a freakin magician with the basketball. I would love to see him play with healthy, young, athletic wings and bigs, compared to with the old men he's currently running with. He might would average 20 assists a game with youngun's running with him.

Unreal. Prettiest NBA play of the year has to be the end bounds play at the end with KG to Pierce to Rondo for the slashing layup. Sweet

[Duke Mom]

Unreal. Prettiest NBA play of the year has to be the end bounds play at the end with KG to Pierce to Rondo for the slashing layup. Sweet

That was sensational!!!!!

Every aspect of it was fantastic - perfectly timed and coordinated. The strength and accuracy of Garnett's long pass to Pierce, who caught that ball like it was a football pass. Even loved the way Rondo's speed took him out of bounds, yet he was able to turn, look, and see the ball go in! Doesn't get much better than that.

Two videos of the same play, scroll down for the second one:
http://www.redsarmy.com/home/2010/06/garnett-to-pierce-to-rondo-ftw.html

[DukieBoy]

Another way to look at it is that Bynum was hurt in 08 (Celtics win), Garnett was hurt in 09 (Lakers win) and Bynum is hurt again this year (Celtics?).

I'm not sure either team has actually played at 100% full strength. Would be fun to see. Might have happened in the first game of the regular season this year, and that was at Boston and Kobe put in a shot with like 8 seconds left to win it

[greybeard]

Another way to look at it is that Bynum was hurt in 08 (Celtics win), Garnett was hurt in 09 (Lakers win) and Bynum is hurt again this year (Celtics?).

That is a given. I said earlier I doubted that LA could win if Bynum stayed injured, which he has. That said, there is something deeper going on in LA, and I think we are seeing the last of Phil. No, nobody's firing him. I think he rides off into the sunset after this; something is very unright, or the dude has changed.

[muzikfrk75]

So....who wins tonight? I'm pretty sure the Celtics are looking at this game as Game 7 even though they technically have 2 cracks at it. Doc Rivers needs to borrow Pat Riley's philosophy in 2006 when the Heat plays the Mavs on the road in Game 6: 'I packed 1 suit, 1 pair of shoes, 1 tie'...

[superdave]

So....who wins tonight? I'm pretty sure the Celtics are looking at this game as Game 7 even though they technically have 2 cracks at it. Doc Rivers needs to borrow Pat Riley's philosophy in 2006 when the Heat plays the Mavs on the road in Game 6: 'I packed 1 suit, 1 pair of shoes, 1 tie'...

Kobe woke up in the 2nd half the other night. I'm assuming the C's want no part in that. I just dont see the C's winning a game 7 in LA, so they either win tonight or lose the series in my opinion.

Isnt Ray Allen due?

[DukieBoy]

Kobe woke up in the 2nd half the other night. I'm assuming the C's want no part in that. I just dont see the C's winning a game 7 in LA, so they either win tonight or lose the series in my opinion.

Isnt Ray Allen due?

I'm thinking Ray left his jumper in the locker room in Staples Center.

And I also think the Lakers win tonight. But the C's are a great road team. The C's are going to look at this as an absolute must win. I sure hope the Lakers match that intensity

[muzikfrk75]

Yeah, I think Ray Allen will hit about 4 3-pointers tonight. I also predict Kobe will start gunning if the rest of his team starts off poorly.

[Duke Mom]

So....who wins tonight? I'm pretty sure the Celtics are looking at this game as Game 7 even though they technically have 2 cracks at it. Doc Rivers needs to borrow Pat Riley's philosophy in 2006 when the Heat plays the Mavs on the road in Game 6: 'I packed 1 suit, 1 pair of shoes, 1 tie'...

I'm rooting for the Celtics, but I can't imagine that the Lakers won't do everything in their power not to lose face at home tonight. Kobe just won't stand for it. That said, I do love the Riley quote, but just in case, maybe Doc should pack an extra pair of boxers (or briefs).

[Billy Dat]

I think that the Celtics are going to win the title tonight. To me, Paul Pierce is the heart and soul of the team. He came alive last game, and LA is his hometown. I think he, and the whole Celtic team, smell blood in the water. They are a champion team and know how to close. I think that the veteran big 3, Pierce/KG/Allen will play out of their minds with an incredible hunger. I think you'll see the same from Kobe, but I think that Bynum/Odom aren't as hungry and I think Artest is just too crazy, to match the Celtics organized focus. Plus, in more concrete terms, Boston's defense is so much better than LA's that it is laughable. If the Celtics cut down their turnovers, they'd have won the last game by 20. I hope I am wrong, I want the Lakers to win in 7, but my gut tells me that the Celtics close this out tonight. Watching this series, I am convinced that, if KG had been healthy last year, the Celitcs would be going for a 3-peat.

[mgtr]

I think that the Celtics are going to win the title tonight.

I don't watch a whole lot of NBA, but if the Celtics play as they did when they trampled the Magic, I don't see how they can lose.

[DukieInBrasil]

That is why I really wanted the Suns to win it!
this is what I've been saying since the beginning. It's hard for me to pull for the Celtics to win b/c Shelden hasn't played anything more than being a passing mention in this series. He is essentially inconsequential to the Celtics in the playoffs.

[Big Pappa]

I think that the Celtics are going to win the title tonight. To me, Paul Pierce is the heart and soul of the team. He came alive last game, and LA is his hometown. I think he, and the whole Celtic team, smell blood in the water. They are a champion team and know how to close. I think that the veteran big 3, Pierce/KG/Allen will play out of their minds with an incredible hunger. I think you'll see the same from Kobe, but I think that Bynum/Odom aren't as hungry and I think Artest is just too crazy, to match the Celtics organized focus. Plus, in more concrete terms, Boston's defense is so much better than LA's that it is laughable. If the Celtics cut down their turnovers, they'd have won the last game by 20. I hope I am wrong, I want the Lakers to win in 7, but my gut tells me that the Celtics close this out tonight. Watching this series, I am convinced that, if KG had been healthy last year, the Celitcs would be going for a 3-peat.

Fair points, but I disagree with you. To me, you left out the most important key to the Celts winning and that is Rondo. If he plays well, they have a good chance. I just don't see Kobe getting close out, at home, in Game 6. You also left out the most important player (aside from Kobe) for the Lakers and that's Gasol. He had a very forgettable game in Game 5, but he always plays better at home and I see him dominating KG tonight as he did in Games 1 and 2.

[Bluedog]

Shelden finally gets in...and immediately misses a dunk. :mad:

[arydolphin]

Worse outcome imaginable for someone like me, a Duke alum and Celtics fan: Lakers come out on fire, Kendrick Perkins suffers what looks like a serious knee injury, Shelden Williams comes into game and promptly misses a dunk. Yes, that sums up the first half tonight.

[muzikfrk75]

Shelden finally gets in...and immediately misses a dunk. :mad:

His NBA days are numbered...

[Newton_14]

Shelden finally gets in...and immediately misses a dunk. :mad:

Saw that. At least KG had the confidence to feed Shelden in the post. With Perkins hurt, Shelden gets his chance to make a mark. Let's hope he takes advantage.

[Duke Mom]

Rooting for the Celtics, but this game is ugh leeeee.
At least in game 5 Lakers kept within reach.

[diveonthefloor]

Each time Stuart Scott speaks, he ruins the game analysis for me. Like fingernails on the blackboard.

[superdave]

Pierce/Allen/Garnett: 8/13/8 respectively.

That's 29 of 31 Celtic points. It will take 3rd and 4th Qs like the Celtic's Game 4 4th Q to win this thing. Poor effort.

[Billy Dat]

I clearly did not see this outcome coming. I knew Kobe would show up, but didn't expect the contributions of Artest, Bynum, Vujacic, Farmar and Shannon Brown. I did not think Gasol would be as tough. I didn't think the Lakers had this kind of defensive and rebounding game in them.

I am happy I was wrong.

[Billy Dat]

Looks like Shel is about to play the whole 4th Q. Doc throwing in the towel.

[superdave]

0-7 tonight. All you haters can commence hating.

As a bonus, Rasheed got T-d up as well.

[superdave]

The last time Shelden and Josh Powell saw meaningful minutes was in college. Both got in during important first half minutes.

[billyj]

I think it takes skills to miss a dunk have two turnover and fouls while maintaining a +7 on the stats sheet. :rolleyes:

[Duke Mom]

Couldn't wait for that game to be over - Celtics probably felt the same way.
Lakers bench is so much stronger than Celtic's. At least we will get to see a 7th game.

[DukieBoy]

As a bonus, Rasheed got T-d up as well.

Sheed didn't get T'd up tonight.

But what more could you ask for. Game 7 between Boston and LA. I'm excited

[Jderf]

Lakers bench is so much stronger than Celtic's.

Not what people were saying after game 4. I guess opinions change quick in sports.

[CampbellBlueDevil]

I have yet to see Sheldon make a valuable contribution when given the playing time... other than provide a big body to roam around the paint.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

aw man. sports guy kills Shelden.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=5285343

maybe start scrolling a little above half way.

[Duke Mom]

Not what people were saying after game 4. I guess opinions change quick in sports.

True, but certainly seemed so tonight. Perhaps the big deficit from the get-go deflated Celtics' confidence. Who knows, in any case, a weak game from Celtics starters and bench. Lakers played very well. Great energy.

[Billy Dat]

greybeard - looks like Big Chief Triangle's metaphysical approach does pay some dividends. Sacred Hoops, indeed:

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5291620

"Luke Walton said the Lakers had a meditation session Tuesday morning, allowing the team to find the zone that it hadn't found since that Game 6 in Denver last year, when it was able to turn what had been a tug-of-war series into a laugher.

Odom likened the meditation to a form of prayer."

[superdave]

Sheed didn't get T'd up tonight.

But what more could you ask for. Game 7 between Boston and LA. I'm excited

I guess all the talk of Rasheed getting his 7th tech had me thinking he got one last night.

Magic was elated talking about game 7 on Espn this morning - said he won one and lost one during his career. One of the announcers said the Nba finals has only gone to game 7 twice in 20-some-odd years. I think the Spurs beat the Pistons in 2005 in 7 and maybe the Rockets beat the Knicks in 2005 (the OJ Simpson Memorial Finals). Is that all? Really?

[Big Pappa]

aw man. sports guy kills Shelden.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=5285343

maybe start scrolling a little above half way.

Scorch yes, totally inaccurate - sadly no.

[Jeff Frosh]

I guess all the talk of Rasheed getting his 7th tech had me thinking he got one last night.

Magic was elated talking about game 7 on Espn this morning - said he won one and lost one during his career. One of the announcers said the Nba finals has only gone to game 7 twice in 20-some-odd years. I think the Spurs beat the Pistons in 2005 in 7 and maybe the Rockets beat the Knicks in 2005 (the OJ Simpson Memorial Finals). Is that all? Really?

Yes, Magic lost game 7 to Celtics in 1984, won game 7 over Pistons in 1988 and made sure there was no game 7 a few other times, including legendary game 6 performance in 1980 in Philly.

[Jeff Frosh]

It is interesting that after his big performance in game 4, Big Baby scored exactly 0 points in game 5 and game 6.

[cato]

maybe the Rockets beat the Knicks in 2005

1994. And please don't remind me (or Doc Rivers) about it.

[jipops]

Couldn't wait for that game to be over - Celtics probably felt the same way.
Lakers bench is so much stronger than Celtic's. At least we will get to see a 7th game.

And that has been one of the main keys to this series. Whoever has the productive bench comes up with the W. In games 4 and 5 Boston's bench looked far superior to the Lakers. Home court advantage seems to affect the bench and role players far more than the goto guys.

[jipops]

aw man. sports guy kills Shelden.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=5285343

maybe start scrolling a little above half way.

The speed of the NBA game, or the NBA playoffs rather, just looks way too fast for Shelden. All his reactions appear slow. He just doesn't have the quickness nor the height to offset it. He appears in over his head out there.

[jipops]

The speed of the NBA game, or the NBA playoffs rather, just looks way too fast for Shelden. All his reactions appear slow. He just doesn't have the quickness nor the height to offset it. He appears in over his head out there.

I feel like I should qualify, some of this could be corrected with more playing time. It can't be easy to have been sitting on the bench over a series of games and then be thrust into the NBA finals with meaningful minutes in the 4th quarter. Big Baby has the advantage of having been a part of the rotation this entire time so he already has a feel for the pace.

[Billy Dat]

Shelden didn't really play any meaningful minutes in the 4th quarter as there really were no meaningful minutes in the 4th quarter. Had he flushed, instead of flubbed, the dunk as soon as he entered the game in the second quarter, I think he'd have relaxed. Instead, everytime he touched the ball, he basically looked around frantically until he could get it out of his hands. I agree that we can't judge him considering the fact that he has barely played in the playoffs. Still, I wonder if he is doing everything he can to keep his place in the league ala JJ? He has added a famous wife and baby since he graduated - JJ, on the other hand, has added a dribble drive, much enhanced defensive skills, several degrees of quickness, and dropped lots of body fat. The results don't seem to back up the Landlord having that same fire in the belly to get better.

[DukieBoy]

I feel like I should qualify, some of this could be corrected with more playing time. It can't be easy to have been sitting on the bench over a series of games and then be thrust into the NBA finals with meaningful minutes in the 4th quarter. Big Baby has the advantage of having been a part of the rotation this entire time so he already has a feel for the pace.

My thoughts exactly. You can't expect a guy who has sat for a majority of the playoffs to come in during the NBA Finals and have a positive impact

[superdave]

Looks like Lakers are 7 point favorites tonight.

Boston is 26-15 on the road while LA is 34-7 at home.

Boston is 7-0 in Finals game 7s!!
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/john_schuhmann/06/16/game7.facts/index.html

[MisterRoddy]

Looks like Lakers are 7 point favorites tonight.

Boston is 26-15 on the road while LA is 34-7 at home.

Boston is 7-0 in Finals game 7s!!

Well, after that game 6 performance and the loss of Kendrick Perkins, I expect that record to drop to 7-1.

[cspan37421]

Boston is 7-0 in Finals game 7s!!


And Phil Jackson has won 47 out of 47 seven-game SERIES in which his team wins game 1.

I don't know what'll happen. I'm just sayin' ...

[Duke Mom]

Lakers have the psychological momentum and the home crowd. I believe I read that the Lakers have won 85% at home this season. Ya gotta believe - but, for Celtics, this will be as tough as trying to beat this past Duke team in Cameron.

Celtics now a long shot - they will need to diggg veryyyy deeeeep.

[hq2]

They were at the beginning of the playoffs too. They still have the big four, and the talent to do it. Losing Perk will hurt, but Bynum isn't much of a factor anymore, so not as much as a few games ago. We'll see. The Lakers will probably win, but the C's will put up a fight. Hope Bill Russell is in the locker room to give the pregame talk about '69!

[LSanders]

Who would have thought that Fate could be cruel enough to create a situation in which I have to root for 'Sheed to play significant minutes; play tough, smart defense; and have a zero-meltdown, zero-headupthebutt game in order for my team to win Game 7?

Wonder if there's still enough time to tap into my home equity so I can buy enough alcohol to force myself to roots for the Lakers?! :eek:

[Newton_14]

My thoughts exactly. You can't expect a guy who has sat for a majority of the playoffs to come in during the NBA Finals and have a positive impact

I will add one more factor: Confidence. Confidence is so key in sports. I felt sad watching Shel the other night because of the many times I saw a confident Shelden Williams play. Different level, sure, but confidence matters and it matters a lot, to any player.

We saw it first hand this season with Zoubs. Once he figured out he could play and believed in himself, we saw a totally different player. By the time the title game rolled around, Zoubs had developed the kind of confidence that Kyle and Jon have. It made a world of difference in his play.

Like someone else opined, I am not sure how much Shelden wants it, but the talent is there. There is no valid reason why he can't be a normal rotation guy playing in every game. He should take a cue from his college running mate.

As for the game tonight, I fear the Celtic's are done. Losing Perkins hurts really bad, and LA seems to have their mojo back. 3 of the 4 of Rondo, Pierce, Allen, and KG will have to bring their A+ games tonight for the men in green to have a chance.

[MisterRoddy]

Well, it's halftime and the Celts are up by 6. It's been a defensive struggle for both teams and the Lakers have crushed on the boards, unfortunately for them, the Celts defensive performance has been so solid, they haven't really been bake to capitalize.

For the second half, I see the the pace pick up a little in the 3rd but the Celts keep the advantage and then Kobe picks it up in the 4th and elevates the Lakers to the title game victory, submitting himself as one of the games true, all-time greats.

What do you guys think?

[moonpie23]

i think the celts are looking pretty good right now...

[Newton_14]

Well, it's halftime and the Celts are up by 6. It's been a defensive struggle for both teams and the Lakers have crushed on the boards, unfortunately for them, the Celts defensive performance has been so solid, they haven't really been bake to capitalize.

For the second half, I see the the pace pick up a little in the 3rd but the Celts keep the advantage and then Kobe picks it up in the 4th and elevates the Lakers to the title game victory, submitting himself as one of the games true, all-time greats.

What do you guys think?

So far so good. Allen needs to step it up. The craziest thing I just heard was Magic at halftime saying "it was a blessing for the Celtics that Perkins is out":eek:, say what? Is he smoking the funny weed off camera?

I love the defense Boston is playing and if they keep it up they just might pull this thing out. As long as the role players for LA stay quiet Boston is in a good spot. But good grief Ray Allen, make a freakin shot dude!:D

[dukemsu]

This game is burning out my retinas. Terrible basketball.

dukemsu

[MisterRoddy]

So far so good. Allen needs to step it up. The craziest thing I just heard was Magic at halftime saying "it was a blessing for the Celtics that Perkins is out":eek:, say what? Is he smoking the funny weed off camera?

I love the defense Boston is playing and if they keep it up they just might pull this thing out. As long as the role players for LA stay quiet Boston is in a good spot. But good grief Ray Allen, make a freakin shot dude!:D

Agreed, if the Celtics wants to win, Ray Allen needs to step it up.

[NM Duke Fan]

If the Lakers keep shooting like they did in the first half, the Celtics will have a great chance of taking the trophy home. Boston played really good team ball at times, when they rebounded and then quickly pushed it up court. If the Lakers don't get all those offensive boards then it would be out of hand already.

[dukemsu]

Just once, I'd like to see of Kobe's teammates slap him right across the face during one of the curseout sessions Bryant routinely drops on members of his supporting cast.

dukemsu

[dukelifer]

If the Lakers keep shooting like they did in the first half, the Celtics will have a great chance of taking the trophy home. Boston played really good team ball at times, when they rebounded and then quickly pushed it up court. If the Lakers don't get all those offensive boards then it would be out of hand already.

Lakers are going to lose this game-just shooting too poorly. Kobe will take a lot of heat for this loss.

[DevilHorns]

Its so hard not to like Rondo. Man I wish he wasnt a wildcat.

[MisterRoddy]

Its so hard not to like Rondo. Man I wish he wasnt a wildcat.

I'd argue the opposite.

[DevilHorns]

I'd argue the opposite.

I like his game. He plays hard. Doesn't whine about crap. Seems to be a good floor general, and keeps tempers under control.

Man Kobe is eating it tonight. The thing is, if any of the lakers could make FTs they would be leading this monstrosity of a game.

[Duke Mom]

Its so hard not to like Rondo. Man I wish he wasnt a wildcat.

He's amazing and still so young - can he get even better?

Hold on Celtics, hold on....so close.

[Duke Mom]

Oh, well - could have gone either way :(

Congrats to Lakers and their fans.

I could be wrong, but I believe Artest just made an NBA first - he thanked his psychiatrist.

[MisterRoddy]

Congrats to the 2010 NBA Finals Champion LA Lakers.

Now that the Finals are over, maybe Doc can finally help his son decide that Duke is the best place for him :)

[BattierD12]

That game just felt like Duke-Butler all over again. From the tough times getting offense to the excellent defense, the parallels are there. Hell, even Vujacic's free throws at the end were eerily similar to zoubs (except not missing the 2nd haha).

Most exciting NBA game I've ever seen.

[uh_no]

That game just felt like Duke-Butler all over again. From the tough times getting offense to the excellent defense, the parallels are there. Hell, even Vujacic's free throws at the end were eerily similar to zoubs (except not missing the 2nd haha).

Most exciting NBA game I've ever seen.

when the offense doesn't flow...you get offensive rebounds....thats what the lakers did tonight

they won that game duke style

[DevilHorns]

Most exciting NBA game I've ever seen.

It was an exciting game, but uh... I'm guessing you don't watch a lot of NBA. :D

Congrats to Lakers fans. Tough tough game for them to pull out.

Should this really count as championship though? I mean they played a team that barely made it to the playoffs for the championship? Talk about easiest road!!! :)

[mgtr]

Should this really count as championship though? I mean they played a team that barely made it to the playoffs for the championship? Talk about easiest road!!! :)

Right, the Lakers get all the breaks!!!!:D

[WiJoe]

That game set basketball back about 40 years. It was brutal. It was awful. It was gory.

It was 71-68 with 2:47 left.

61-60 with 7:29 to go (that's pretty close to the final score of the college kids' championship game) :D

Look the at the box. Gross.

[MisterRoddy]

That game set basketball back about 40 years. It was brutal. It was awful. It was gory.

It was 71-68 with 2:47 left.

61-60 with 7:29 to go (that's pretty close to the final score of the college kids' championship game) :D

Look the at the box. Gross.

That's also the score that was up with about 40 minutes past. (according to what you have)

...and the correlations continue....

[BattierD12]

It was an exciting game, but uh... I'm guessing you don't watch a lot of NBA. :D

Congrats to Lakers fans. Tough tough game for them to pull out.

Should this really count as championship though? I mean they played a team that barely made it to the playoffs for the championship? Talk about easiest road!!! :)

I've been an NBA regular since 1995 (I mean, I'm only 20), so in that respect, I didn't see the Magic-Bird days. Bulls-Jazz Game 6 in 98 was my fav till now, followed by Reggie's 8 pts in 8 seconds back in 95. This game just had drama, intensity, a terrific comeback with a star player struggling like nothing else. There was just play after play in those final minutes. And we're talking a GAME 7 in the Lakers-Celtics rivalry. Epic.

[Big Pappa]

It was an exciting game, but uh... I'm guessing you don't watch a lot of NBA. :D

Congrats to Lakers fans. Tough tough game for them to pull out.



I have to agree. Although I don't like many of the players in this series, (Sheed, Big Baby, KG, Artest, etc.) I continue to be impressed with Gasol. He is so much tougher and stronger than he was last year. His offensive rebound that led to Kobe's two free throws was the biggest play of the game in my mind. 19 pts, 14 boards, 4 assists, 2 blocks and only 1 to. That's big time, especially in a Game 7.

[Bluedog]

Gasol should have gotten MVP over Kobe, in my opinion. Kobe really got bailed out tonight by some great plays by Artest, Gasol, and Fisher. I really wanted both teams to lose, but unfortunately that couldn't happen. A Suns-Magic finals would have been much more to my liking...Still undecided if I'm happy the Lakers won or not...The parallels to the Duke-Butler game were there but the Lakers (the winning team) LIVED on the free throw line, while we barely ever made it to the charity stripe (Butler had far more). So, Lakers get all the calls and Duke does not! ;)

[cnote]

do you guys feel any connection to Kobe since he has often stated he would have been a blue devil had he gone to school?

[Billy Dat]

The game WAS ugly, but it was tremendously riveting, entertaining, and brutally fought. What an exciting end to a worthy, if bizarre, championship series.

Watching the game, it did feel like the Lakers got most of the whistles. The 4th quarter free throw shooting disparity was glaring, but they were being much more aggressive taking it to the hole.

Kobe's play was similar to Laettner in the first half of the 1992 title game. Considering that Kobe continued to play that way up until about 8 minutes left in the game, I am guessing Bobby Hurley wasn't there to chew him out at halftime.

Artest and Gasol were great. During Artest's post-game interview, my friend texted me, "Sign of the Times: The Shrink has replaced God". A large reason why I wanted the Lakers to win was to see that very Artest post championship interview and he didn't dissapoint.

Boston just ran out of steam.

Also dissapointed that the Buss boys didn't handle the trophy ceremony/speech after last year's unintentional comedy gem.

Can't wait for the World Championships!!!

[DevilHorns]

do you guys feel any connection to Kobe since he has often stated he would have been a blue devil had he gone to school?

I think some people "claim" that connection but IMO he is not a Devil since he never suited up, and thats that. We discredit our actual players if we start claiming players just because of their NBA credentials.

[CrazieDUMB]

Man I thought that was such a horrible game. I hope my feeling about that game isn't how others feel about Duke's championship. Duke's was low scoring, but it had great defense and contested shots all around, as well as a slow pace. In game 7, both teams shot horribly, the best player on the floor played the worst, both teams couldn't rebound free throws or keep from turning it over, and offenses never made the extra pass. I'll give the NBA credit that at least it was exciting.

Here's the biggest part though - at one point Ron Artest was 6/17 and I thought to myself "wow he's really winning it for the Lakers."

I like watching Kobe play, but seeing him try to force it as much as he did was horrible. He stunk it up, and wouldn't realize he was stinking it up and still tried to take off-balance, contested shots after not making a single pass in the whole possession. Unbelievable he was the MVP, but I guess the rest of his performance through the series is what did it.

[moonpie23]

Artest should have been MVP.....without him last night, LA goes down...

kobe gets his 5th without being kobe....

[Billy Dat]

It's certainly worth mentioning that the injury to Perkins seems to have made a huge difference. From the moment he went down in Game 6, the series changed. The rebounding figures alone tell a big part of that story. But, as K would extol, no excuses.

I found it pretty funny that Sheed tried to talk to the refs to compliment them after the game and was surprised when no one would talk to him because they thought he was going to argue with them. Why would they think that?

[moonpie23]

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5300375

[NSDukeFan]

That game just felt like Duke-Butler all over again. From the tough times getting offense to the excellent defense, the parallels are there. Hell, even Vujacic's free throws at the end were eerily similar to zoubs (except not missing the 2nd haha).

Most exciting NBA game I've ever seen.
I wouldn't call it the most exciting NBA game, just because the offensive execution wasn't spectacular and there were a lot of missed shots. I do agree that it was a very exciting game though and the defensive intensity reminded me of the Duke-Butler game as well.

when the offense doesn't flow...you get offensive rebounds....thats what the lakers did tonight

they won that game duke style
Agreed, Lakers (as they did much of the series) pounded the offensive glass so that even when shots weren't falling, they still got enough scores to keep them close.

It was an exciting game, but uh... I'm guessing you don't watch a lot of NBA. :D

Congrats to Lakers fans. Tough tough game for them to pull out.

Should this really count as championship though? I mean they played a team that barely made it to the playoffs for the championship? Talk about easiest road!!! :)
The Western Conference's 8th seed won 50 games this year. I don't know how you would get an easy road from that.

I have to agree. Although I don't like many of the players in this series, (Sheed, Big Baby, KG, Artest, etc.) I continue to be impressed with Gasol. He is so much tougher and stronger than he was last year. His offensive rebound that led to Kobe's two free throws was the biggest play of the game in my mind. 19 pts, 14 boards, 4 assists, 2 blocks and only 1 to. That's big time, especially in a Game 7.
Gasol has really proven himself to be one of the best big men in the league. He was a monster on the boards and has such smooth post moves.

Gasol should have gotten MVP over Kobe, in my opinion. Kobe really got bailed out tonight by some great plays by Artest, Gasol, and Fisher. I really wanted both teams to lose, but unfortunately that couldn't happen. A Suns-Magic finals would have been much more to my liking...Still undecided if I'm happy the Lakers won or not...The parallels to the Duke-Butler game were there but the Lakers (the winning team) LIVED on the free throw line, while we barely ever made it to the charity stripe (Butler had far more). So, Lakers get all the calls and Duke does not! ;)
I agree with almost everything you said, though I would say Kobe may have had a better overall series than Gasol, but it would certainly be close. Gasol never seems to do anything to hurt the team (except maybe miss the odd free throw.) Just seems like a solid, smart player. I also would have much preferred a Suns-Magic series. I wonder if Kobe does feel relief at how much his teammates carried the team to the championship while he was having a rough shooting game. This should reinforce to him how important it to trust and get his teammates involved.

The game WAS ugly, but it was tremendously riveting, entertaining, and brutally fought. What an exciting end to a worthy, if bizarre, championship series.

Watching the game, it did feel like the Lakers got most of the whistles. The 4th quarter free throw shooting disparity was glaring, but they were being much more aggressive taking it to the hole.

Kobe's play was similar to Laettner in the first half of the 1992 title game. Considering that Kobe continued to play that way up until about 8 minutes left in the game, I am guessing Bobby Hurley wasn't there to chew him out at halftime.

Artest and Gasol were great. During Artest's post-game interview, my friend texted me, "Sign of the Times: The Shrink has replaced God". A large reason why I wanted the Lakers to win was to see that very Artest post championship interview and he didn't dissapoint.

Boston just ran out of steam.

Also dissapointed that the Buss boys didn't handle the trophy ceremony/speech after last year's unintentional comedy gem.

Can't wait for the World Championships!!!
I agree there did seem to be a bit of a foul disparity and it seemed like Pierce didn't get any calls on drives the last couple games of the series. I like Pierce, though and it was a physical series where the refs let a lot go, so that may be just a biased opinion. I guess I should reluctantly give some credit to Artest.
I also liked listening to Jeff Van Gundy doing the analysis. He seems very knowledgeable and makes a lot of great points.
The Lakers reminded me of Duke in some games this year, in that they didn't have to shoot well to win as there was a stretch near the end of the game where Boston just could not get a good shot against the Lakers D. If Bynum could ever stay healthy, they would be ridiculously tough.

[Jderf]

do you guys feel any connection to Kobe since he has often stated he would have been a blue devil had he gone to school?

I'm pretty sure that was just a rumor - a popular rumor, but still a rumor. Actually, though I don't have a link, I think I remember seeing somewhere that he said he actually would have been a tarheel. If so, I think he made a wise decision. Does anyone have a quote of Kobe saying one way or the other?

[jipops]

I thought that was a fantastic game, I loved it. Sure it was low scoring but it was all due to terrific defense. Neither D was giving the offense anything. For me it was truly a joy to watch.

Kobe didn't shoot well but his work on the boards, especially in the 3rd and 4th quarters was huge. His drives into the lane to draw fouls were big as well. I thought the man in this game was Artest though.

Did anybody catch Artest thank his psychiatrist after the game? Wow, the modern athlete...

[jipops]

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5300375

I have a hard time believing that the NBA's leader in technical fouls took a path to the ref's locker room just to offer his sweet goodbyes.

[cspan37421]

I'm pretty sure that was just a rumor - a popular rumor, but still a rumor. Actually, though I don't have a link, I think I remember seeing somewhere that he said he actually would have been a tarheel. If so, I think he made a wise decision. Does anyone have a quote of Kobe saying one way or the other?

There are a few quotes floating around; I'd give it about a 7 out of 10 for definitiveness, but would knock it down if you could find similar quotes for other schools. goduke.com quotes Kobe thus:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1153901

Often times Duke fans wonder if Kobe Bryant had not gone directly to the NBA out of high school if he “maybe” would have attended Duke and been a part of that team.

“There’s no maybe about it,” Bryant says. “Every time I turn on the TV and see Cameron Indoor Stadium, see everybody in Krzyzewskiville and see the Crazies jumping up in down with the intensity and the building almost shaking, I wonder what it would have been like to play there with Corey [Maggette] and Elton [Brand] and all those guys."

And USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/basketba/2002-05-08-bryant.htm

Bryant says he wouldn't change the path he took, bypassing college. He admits, however, that he has daydreamed about the NCAA career he might have had.

"Sometimes, out of curiosity, I think about that," he says. "My mind starts drifting a little bit, wondering what I'd look like in a Duke uniform."

So there does seem to be something to it - unless he just says that about other schools too. But I would not claim him - we didn't mold him, though Coach K finally did get to coach him on the USA national team.

Tangent: BTW, does anyone think that the fact that Coach K could coach professional players in the Olympics helped to keep him as our coach? That it sated the curiosity he had about coaching "at the next level" ?

I am kind of surprised that, for a time, he strongly considered it, because of how different it is to lead guys who are more prone to tuning you out, and over whom you have so little control.

[cspan37421]

BTW, on the Finals, I side with those who thought it was terrible basketball, and not similar at all to the NCAA title game except in score. There were a LOT of unforced errors in that game, relative to "winning plays."

[Billy Dat]

A brief synopsis of the Doris Burke/Artest post game interview:

Burke asks a specific question which Ron Ron ignores and proceeds with the following:

-Shout out to his hood, actually shocked that he didn't say "Queensbridge" specifically
-Shout out to his family
-Shout out to his psychiatrist
-Exclamation - "I hit that big 3!" followed by mentioning how tense he's been during the finals adding another thank you to the shrink who told him he could manage that stress and hit that 3
-A shout out that his new record, titled "Champion" was going to drop shortly
-A bear hug for Doris Burke coupled with a "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" in regards to his inability to conduct a standard interview at that moment.

Completely classic. The fact that he hit that final 3 still boggles my mind.

[Duke Mom]

I found it pretty funny that Sheed tried to talk to the refs to compliment them after the game and was surprised when no one would talk to him because they thought he was going to argue with them. Why would they think that?

Although, Doc Rivers was very complimentary about Wallace's performance (Was it really so great? Rebounding was good, but it seemed like he missed most of his shots), that guy needs to tag along with Artest to his next shrink appointment. Something is seriously off kilter with that one.

Rondo, Pierce, Garnett so impressive during this series. If just a few more of Ray Allen's shots had gone in during this last game...who knows. The clock just ran out, and so did the Celtic's steam. Those guys looked tired.

This game was far from perfect - but it was great. A tough, hard fought battle.

[kong123]

Although, Doc Rivers was very complimentary about Wallace's performance (Was it really so great? Rebounding was good, but it seemed like he missed most of his shots), that guy needs to tag along with Artest to his next shrink appointment. Something is seriously off kilter with that one.

Rondo, Pierce, Garnett so impressive during this series. If just a few more of Ray Allen's shots had gone in during this last game...who knows. The clock just ran out, and so did the Celtic's steam. Those guys looked tired.

This game was far from perfect - but it was great. A tough, hard fought battle.

You can hate on Sheed all you want, but Sheldon sat on the bench while a newly activated Scalabrine got PT over him. When Sheldon was on the court, he was the best player on the Laker's. What's funny is the way the homepage stated that it was the "Landlord" and the Celtics against the Laker's. That is laughable and also a great indication of how rare it is to see a Duke player compete for a NBA title. Sheldon was a huge disappointment.
Instead of hating on a guy that played 15 years in the league, one a championship with Detroit, and made the all-star game four times, own up to Sheldon's poor play.

[Duke Mom]

You can hate on Sheed all you want, but Sheldon sat on the bench while a newly activated Scalabrine got PT over him. When Sheldon was on the court, he was the best player on the Laker's. What's funny is the way the homepage stated that it was the "Landlord" and the Celtics against the Laker's. That is laughable and also a great indication of how rare it is to see a Duke player compete for a NBA title. Sheldon was a huge disappointment.
Instead of hating on a guy that played 15 years in the league, one a championship with Detroit, and made the all-star game four times, own up to Sheldon's poor play.

It is simply my observation that Wallace's behavior, evidenced by his record of technicals and his dramatics on the court (potentially risking game suspension) seems unbalanced, none of which is related to his alma mater or to Shelden Williams.

[Billy Dat]

kong123 - Love the passion brother. Personally, I thought Sheed played well, especially considering his unexpected increased minutes due to Perkins' injury. I was laughing at his surprise that the refs wouldn't want to talk to him after the game. I also think his professionalism as far as conditioning this year was suspect, an issue covered quite thoroughly in this article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100407&sportCat=nba

Then again, as I've posted earlier, I don't get the impression that Shelden has shown the fire in the belly to improve himself that someone like Redick has. But, I don't really know, I can only guess based on his lack of improvement.

The "UNC players are better in the NBA" argument has a slippery downslope. I don't think anyone would argue that Sheed is a much more talented player than Shelden so he should be a better pro. But, if you want to make the argument that UNC grads are better pros, then you can also argue that Duke is the better program because, in the modern era, it has done more with less talent.

[toooskies]

1-- You only have to go back 2 pages to see discussion about Shelden playing poorly in the only game he'd gotten double-digit minutes since mid-April.

2-- You'd have seen the correct way to spell his name there.

3-- Sheed fouled out without any depth on the bench, and the foul line was where the Lakers beat the Celtics. Also, he only got 8 rebounds as the starting center in a game where there were only 93 rebounds, and didn't slow Gasol down at all (18 boards). Having not watched the game, I looked briefly for "got screwed by the refs" commentary and didn't find any and don't see any here, so I imagine that he actually committed all those fouls, and in that case I don't think he played up to how good his contract says he should be.

[Big Pappa]

Gasol should have gotten MVP over Kobe, in my opinion.


Artest should have been MVP.....without him last night, LA goes down...


The award is the "NBA Finals MVP" not the "NBA Final Game MVP"

Here are their stat lines for the 7 games (points and rebounds):
Kobe – 23,15 26,11 38,5 33,6 29,7 21,5 30,7 = 28.6pts, 8rpg
Gasol – 19,18 17,13 12,12 21,6 13,10 25,8 23,14 = 18.6pts, 11.6rpg
Artest – 20,5 15,6 7,2 9,7 2,3 6,5 15,4 = 10.6pts, 4.6rpg

He deserved it.

[Spret42]

Man I thought that was such a horrible game. I hope my feeling about that game isn't how others feel about Duke's championship. Duke's was low scoring, but it had great defense and contested shots all around, as well as a slow pace. In game 7, both teams shot horribly, the best player on the floor played the worst, both teams couldn't rebound free throws or keep from turning it over, and offenses never made the extra pass. I'll give the NBA credit that at least it was exciting.


That game last night was horrible. It was an ugly game to watch and players of that caliber should have performed better than that. They honestly looked tired and beat up. Other games in the series and in the playoffs were much better. Last night was an example of two teams who have been staring at each other for 3 plus years. Each guy on the floor knows the moves, style and capability of his counterpart to frightening detail. Combine that with refs that let them play and it just turned into a bit of an ugly fight.

That is the nature of a league with 30 teams and maybe 7 guys per team who play significant minutes. And do so year after year after year. Game 7's can tend to be like that.

The NCAA final was not an aesthetically pleasing game. I had no dog in that fight so I understand if you were connected to it you felt it was really well played and wonderful etc. There was defense yes, but there weren't many finishers on the floor which made the defenses look more effective and better than they were in reality. Would either of those teams held the other to those scores if the other had a combination of the college versions of Kirk Heinrich and Carmelo Anthony on the floor. What if Duke rolled on to the floor with a backcourt of Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook, who are both technically supposed to be juniors ( Ithink) . You can't honestly say yes.

The game was a wonderful example of good solid college basketball players playing good solid basketball. But honestly, not very many if any were NBA level players, never mind starters on playoff level teams.

I know this will get misconstrued as bashing the game and the players..but I assure you, that isn't the intent.

[DevilHorns]

The "UNC players are better in the NBA" argument has a slippery downslope. I don't think anyone would argue that Sheed is a much more talented player than Shelden so he should be a better pro. But, if you want to make the argument that UNC grads are better pros, then you can also argue that Duke is the better program because, in the modern era, it has done more with less talent.

I posted this in another thread:

http://dimemag.com/2010/06/carolina-blues-the-nbas-underachiever-factory/

"But the facts are right there: Twenty first-round picks from North carolina in the last 21 drafts, and only four of them reached an All-Star level in the League. And of those four, three of them (Vince, Rasheed, Antawn) have become infamous for underachieving given their amazing talent."

Fact is, Michael Jordan's greatness has completely clouded the true UNC legacy from the view of the public. Does UNC really "make" good pros, or is Jordan the outlier? Shoot, do programs really "make" pros, or do they happen to recruit players that either have the NBA goods or don't... I would argue a mix. Duke has taken many players that do not fit the NBA mold (Battier, Redick, etc) and has set them up for careers in the NBA. I don't think that can be said of UNC.

And I for one am incredibly pleased that players like Rasheed Wallace have not attended Duke during the K era. We simply do not offer players that carry that sort of baggage. To hold the record for technical fouls.... what a baby. How seflish can a player be to show a continuous lack of emotional control for all those years. How many points has he given away due to his tantrums? How many times has he cost his team victory? He is a disgrace to professional sports, and a sore to any franchise that signs him. Check out that Bill Simmons article on ESPN from earlier this year, and don't let a semi-decent game yesterday cloud your vision of his legacy. He is Rasheed Wallace, the ultimate black hole.

[moonpie23]

The award is the "NBA Finals MVP" not the "NBA Final Game MVP"

Here are their stat lines for the 7 games (points and rebounds):
Kobe – 23,15 26,11 38,5 33,6 29,7 21,5 30,7 = 28.6pts, 8rpg
Gasol – 19,18 17,13 12,12 21,6 13,10 25,8 23,14 = 18.6pts, 11.6rpg
Artest – 20,5 15,6 7,2 9,7 2,3 6,5 15,4 = 10.6pts, 4.6rpg

He deserved it.

so, you're saying that if the lakers had lost last night, kobe would have still been MVP?

[MisterRoddy]

so, you're saying that if the lakers had lost last night, kobe would have still been MVP?

No, he's basically saying that the best player on the winning team will get the Finals MVP and based on those stats, Kobe was the best player throughout the series (on the winning team).

[Newton_14]

You can hate on Sheed all you want, but Sheldon sat on the bench while a newly activated Scalabrine got PT over him. When Sheldon was on the court, he was the best player on the Laker's. What's funny is the way the homepage stated that it was the "Landlord" and the Celtics against the Laker's. That is laughable and also a great indication of how rare it is to see a Duke player compete for a NBA title. Sheldon was a huge disappointment.
Instead of hating on a guy that played 15 years in the league, one a championship with Detroit, and made the all-star game four times, own up to Sheldon's poor play.

Dude, taking shots at our DBR "Mom's" is not cool. Not cool at all.

Shelden is the 3rd string center. It is up to him to play his way out of that. However, if you watched any games at all, Shelden was always the first one up supporting his teammates at timeout's, after big plays etc. He showed class and maturity, and did not pout over not getting minutes. What is laughable is trying to defend the antics of Rasheed Wallace. Even in very limited minutes throughout the playoffs, Wallace was 1 Technical away from a ban. Given that his skills have now eroded, it will be harder to justify keeping him around and putting up with the baggage that comes with him.

Shelden may never be a normal rotation player. Again, only he can do something to change that. He will never, though, be on the verge of getting the boot from a playoff game for inability to control his temper.

Meanwhile down in Orlando, there is another heel with eroding skills and baggage. There is a Devil lying in wait in that situation though....

[hq2]

When Sheldon was on the court, he was the best player on the Laker's. What's funny is the way the homepage stated that it was the "Landlord" and the Celtics against the Laker's. That is laughable and also a great indication of how rare it is to see a Duke player compete for a NBA title. Sheldon was a huge disappointment.

ShedEN didn't do much in this series to show he'll ever be much of an NBA player. Even when they desperately needed rebounding, he didn't play, and that says a lot. Hard to say if he will be back in Boston next year. My guess is he will (he played O.K. in a lot of the regular season) but only as low budget big man injury insurance. If only he had a consistent mid-range jump shot...

[Big Pappa]

so, you're saying that if the lakers had lost last night, kobe would have still been MVP?

No, but he is obviously much more deserving than Ron Artest, who you said should win it. The Finals MVP is almost always from the winning team.

Trivia - Only one time in history has the Finals MVP been from the losing team. When and who?

[Duke Mom]

Jerry West 1969
Lakers LOST to Celtics

good trivia, so timely, too.

[moonpie23]

i protest... !!!!

i say the MVP of the finals is the guy that KEEPS YOU FROM LOSING......

that was ron artest...


i also think zoubs was mvp for duke......no zoubs? no ring ....

agreed that the guy who keeps you IN the finals is "the guy"......but bottom line......artest was the mvp...(imho)

[DevilHorns]

i protest... !!!!

i say the MVP of the finals is the guy that KEEPS YOU FROM LOSING......

that was ron artest...


i also think zoubs was mvp for duke......no zoubs? no ring ....

agreed that the guy who keeps you IN the finals is "the guy"......but bottom line......artest was the mvp...(imho)

Thats very subjective though. You are assuming Zoubs took us over the top because you are also expecting the standard great play from the likes of Kyle, Nolan, and Jon.

No Kyle, no ring. No Nolan, no ring. No Jon, no ring.

I do agree with the general sentiment regarding Kobe. Talk about laying an egg in the most important game of the season. Bailed out by the biggest character in the NBA.

[Duke Mom]

ShedEN didn't do much in this series

SheLden (yours is obvioulsly just a typo, lol, but...) I'm sure his mom never anticipated all these spelling challenges.

[Jderf]

There are a few quotes floating around; I'd give it about a 7 out of 10 for definitiveness, but would knock it down if you could find similar quotes for other schools. goduke.com quotes Kobe thus:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1153901

Often times Duke fans wonder if Kobe Bryant had not gone directly to the NBA out of high school if he “maybe” would have attended Duke and been a part of that team.

“There’s no maybe about it,” Bryant says. “Every time I turn on the TV and see Cameron Indoor Stadium, see everybody in Krzyzewskiville and see the Crazies jumping up in down with the intensity and the building almost shaking, I wonder what it would have been like to play there with Corey [Maggette] and Elton [Brand] and all those guys."

And USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/basketba/2002-05-08-bryant.htm

Bryant says he wouldn't change the path he took, bypassing college. He admits, however, that he has daydreamed about the NCAA career he might have had.

"Sometimes, out of curiosity, I think about that," he says. "My mind starts drifting a little bit, wondering what I'd look like in a Duke uniform."

So there does seem to be something to it - unless he just says that about other schools too. But I would not claim him - we didn't mold him, though Coach K finally did get to coach him on the USA national team.

Tangent: BTW, does anyone think that the fact that Coach K could coach professional players in the Olympics helped to keep him as our coach? That it sated the curiosity he had about coaching "at the next level" ?

I am kind of surprised that, for a time, he strongly considered it, because of how different it is to lead guys who are more prone to tuning you out, and over whom you have so little control.

Hmm, well there ya go. Interesting, I could have sworn I saw a quote going the other way but maybe I'm just imagining things. I've been known to do that from time to time. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Big Pappa]

i protest... !!!!

i say the MVP of the finals is the guy that KEEPS YOU FROM LOSING......

that was ron artest...


i also think zoubs was mvp for duke......no zoubs? no ring ....

agreed that the guy who keeps you IN the finals is "the guy"......but bottom line......artest was the mvp...(imho)


Thats very subjective though. You are assuming Zoubs took us over the top because you are also expecting the standard great play from the likes of Kyle, Nolan, and Jon.

No Kyle, no ring. No Nolan, no ring. No Jon, no ring.

I do agree with the general sentiment regarding Kobe. Talk about laying an egg in the most important game of the season. Bailed out by the biggest character in the NBA.


Exactly. The Finals MVP goes to the player who had the best series on the winning team. Most likely, they wouldn't have won the final game without Artest, but who's to say that someone else couldn't have stepped up and played well (like Ariza last year or Odom this year) while Kobe was struggling shooting. The certainly wouldn't have won a single game in the Finals without Kobe, nor would they have even been there.

I have to disagree about Kobe "laying an egg" though. He certainly didn't have his best shooting night, but take a look at his stats from Game 7:

23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 10 points in the 4th quarter.

Getting 23 and 15 in the biggest game of the year is hardly "laying an egg" IMO.

[DevilHorns]

Exactly. The Finals MVP goes to the player who had the best series on the winning team. Most likely, they wouldn't have won the final game without Artest, but who's to say that someone else couldn't have stepped up and played well (like Ariza last year or Odom this year) while Kobe was struggling shooting. The certainly wouldn't have won a single game in the Finals without Kobe, nor would they have even been there.

I have to disagree about Kobe "laying an egg" though. He certainly didn't have his best shooting night, but take a look at his stats from Game 7:

23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 10 points in the 4th quarter.

Getting 23 and 15 in the biggest game of the year is hardly "laying an egg" IMO.

Stats tell one story, and thats true, from the looks of it, he did have a "good" game. However, watching the game, you have to admit that he pretty much took the worst selection of shots in his career for 3/4s of the game. He almost single-handedly put them in a hole first half with his stubborn effort to simply put the ball in the air. I will commend him on his rebounding effort. Indeed, he was excellent there. His fourth quarter play also got him to the foul line, where he was able to pad his numbers. I still insist that he did lay an egg for the majority of the game, and then became adequate as a team player in the 4th quarter. He never ever turned it "on," and for a player of his caliber, in a game this important, that is laying an egg.

All I'm saying is if Kobe's wife gets a multi-million dollar ring, then Kobe better go on a shopping spree buying all of the Artest CDs he can find :)

[moonpie23]

23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal and 10 points in the 4th quarter.

Getting 23 and 15 in the biggest game of the year is hardly "laying an egg" IMO.

i agree he did not lay an egg.....i think that because the teams were so evenly matched (not counting perkins being out) that a lot of folks were looking for kobe to totally dominate the game with flashes of unthinkable offense....

when it didn't materialize, it "seemed" that kobe wasn't a factor as much..

his defense in the 4th was excellent......

artest kept the lakers in the game when kobe seemed to be struggling to "flip the switch"......"boo-ya-chick"s stone cold free throws weren't bad either..

[superdave]

I kept waiting for the Kobe who took over the last few minutes in the Gold Medal game vs. Spain to appear. Never happened and I was really surprised. That sort of put a ceiling on Kobe's career historically, probably in the Oscar Jerry West range. If Kobe had a couple of big 4th Quarters and led the Lakers to victories then he might have been pushing into Magic and Larry territory. But as it stands now, Kobe is a great player but not a top 5 guy.

As an aside, would Dwyane Wade's career have a higher/lower/similar trajectory to Kobe's had he been thrust into the league in LA with Shaq then Gasol rather than in Miami (granted with an aging Shaq)? Wade and Kobe are very similar players.

As for discussion of Shelden's play, this board in this thread was very open about his shortcomings in his few Finals minutes. But he's a good guy and he's our guy, so we're going to cheer him regardless. We dont need to get into a comparison of who is a better guy because the evidence is so overwhelming!

[greybeard]

i agree he did not lay an egg.....i think that because the teams were so evenly matched (not counting perkins being out) that a lot of folks were looking for kobe to totally dominate the game with flashes of unthinkable offense....

when it didn't materialize, it "seemed" that kobe wasn't a factor as much..

his defense in the 4th was excellent......

artest kept the lakers in the game when kobe seemed to be struggling to "flip the switch"......"boo-ya-chick"s stone cold free throws weren't bad either..

Kobe did throw the ball to Artest for a 3-ball with the Championship on the line, just like MJ had done to others several times before. The stuff that Championships are made of--""the strength of the pack is in the wolf (alfa) and the strength of the wolf is in the pack.'" Phil oft quoting RK.

Boston has a terrific, terrific defensive coach who apparently decided that Kobe was not going to beat them. This to me threatened the Lakers' ability to play championship ball.

It seemed to me that in the middle passage, Phil, completely out of integrity with his ethos, told Artest not to shoot and that that breach of trust took Artest out of his game, he went completely south. Meanwhile, an extremely long, talented, and experienced Boston team at the direction of an extraordinary defensive specialist deployed in ways that gave Kobe an extremely difficult time, kept deploying, probably in different ways, that precluded Kobe from ever "figuring it out," which is a phrase that Phil and Kobe are fond of using.

Somehow, Phil reintegrated Artest into the offense and he did have the best two games of anyone in the entire Championship series in my opinion. He could not have done it if somehow Phil did not convince him and his teammates of the old Kipling addage and win, lose, or draw, they needed, wanted, all players on the court to play all aspects of the game with complete confidence that they belonged. That is the story behind the story at least the one that I like to believe.

There is something about the type of pass that Kobe made to Artest, that MJ made to Paxton and Kerr, that Zoubs made to whomever, that helps the shooter enormously, almost as if the shooter is not alone in delivering the shot. I feel that that is the magical aspect of passing games like basketball, soccer and lacrosse--what makes them so appealing to play and to watch when the empowering pass, the empowering play, is in the last analysis what everyone is after, even while other things are going on all around. I know, I'm a romantic, what can I say.

Both teams played with that generosity of spirit. I give Doc enormous credit for his constant reminder in miked huddles, "look, you guys want it so much that you are forgetting that you cannot do this alone; keep the ball moving, the shots will appear," and thought that Boston put on a Championship worthy performance. Both teams did, and Kobe, as the leader of LA, competed mightily in that 7th game in every way he knew how. In the end, he gave it over to another member of the pack, which pushed his team over the edge.

This eries was a credit all around to the wonderous quality of basketball when it is played as the team game. The MVP? The wolf or the pack? I believe that in this series it has to be the pack, both of them.

[DukieBoy]

I think the important thing in this series is that Adam Morrison has now got payback against both Dukies (J.J. last year and Shelden this year) in the Finals. 2 rings to none. Poor Dukies :(

[Big Pappa]

I think the important thing in this series is that Adam Morrison has now got payback against both Dukies (J.J. last year and Shelden this year) in the Finals. 2 rings to none. Poor Dukies :(

Payback? He sat on the bench in street clothes.

[pfrduke]

Payback? He sat on the bench in street clothes.

Also, what payback did he owe Redick and Williams? They never played each other in college.

[moonpie23]

isn't there some "double secret probation" rule about a player having to actually PLAY in a finals game to actually get a ring?


or did i make that up in my head cause i like seeing jj playing and morrison not playing..?


just curious

[superdave]

Anyone see what Michael Jordan's (he of the Adolf moustache) son, Marcus, tweeted during Game 7?

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/69205/marcus_jordan_says_you_cant_compare_kobe_to_his_da d

I thought that was appropriate considering Kobe was like 2-15 on FGs at that point and finished 6-24 for the game. Not that anyone needs to defend Jordan (who I personaly hate with a passion, but he never would have thrown up a 6-24 in a Game 7).

[Acymetric]

Anyone see what Michael Jordan's (he of the Adolf moustache) son, Marcus, tweeted during Game 7?

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/69205/marcus_jordan_says_you_cant_compare_kobe_to_his_da d

I thought that was appropriate considering Kobe was like 2-15 on FGs at that point and finished 6-24 for the game. Not that anyone needs to defend Jordan (who I personaly hate with a passion, but he never would have thrown up a 6-24 in a Game 7).

I don't see how you can say that...it wasn't a game 7 but MU has had poor shooting performances in important finals games too...from the article you posted:


In 1996, Jordan was just 5-for-19 from the field, shooting just 26.3 percent

[DukieBoy]

Anyone see what Michael Jordan's (he of the Adolf moustache) son, Marcus, tweeted during Game 7?

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/the_sporting_blog/entry/view/69205/marcus_jordan_says_you_cant_compare_kobe_to_his_da d

I thought that was appropriate considering Kobe was like 2-15 on FGs at that point and finished 6-24 for the game. Not that anyone needs to defend Jordan (who I personaly hate with a passion, but he never would have thrown up a 6-24 in a Game 7).

Kobe did finish with 23 and 15. People focus on the shooting numbers too much. 23 and 15 from a SG? If not for those bad shooting numbers, he'd be getting tons of praise for stepping up with a huge double double in Game 7

[superdave]

24 shots to net 23 points is just plain inefficient any way you cut it. The Finals was there for Kobe's taking and he could not do it. His teammates got him over the hump. Gold Medal Game Kobe might not exist anymore.

[superdave]

Kobe shot 29% in the 7 4th quarters of the NBA finals. Ouch.

[gumbomoop]

Has this been posted elsewhere?

Check out para #5, re Sheed's final act.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5325404

[Edit: title should read "Sheed forever"]

[Big Pappa]

24 shots to net 23 points is just plain inefficient any way you cut it. The Finals was there for Kobe's taking and he could not do it. His teammates got him over the hump. Gold Medal Game Kobe might not exist anymore.


Kobe shot 29% in the 7 4th quarters of the NBA finals. Ouch.


Kobe did finish with 23 and 15. People focus on the shooting numbers too much. 23 and 15 from a SG? If not for those bad shooting numbers, he'd be getting tons of praise for stepping up with a huge double double in Game 7

I totally agree with DukieBoy. 23 points on 24 shots isn't great, but in the NBA many experts say that 1 point for every shot is what stars shoot for. Think about the defense he was facing, the double-teams, and the pressure that was on him. He shot poorly the final game, but he scored 10 points in the fourth that they started down 4 points. I usually make it a point not to use BR, but this is a really good article about it that includes a game by game breakdown:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/409583-kobe-bryant-is-the-2010-finals-mvp-for-a-reason

I'm getting really annoyed with people continually saying that Kobe didn't step up. They won the NBA Championship. How mad were we when people kept saying that we won the NC with "no great teams". We won it. End of story. It's very much the same for Kobe and the Lakers, they beat everyone who was in front of them including a very good (and defensive minded) Celtic team. The numbers really aren't even a good arguement, as you will see in the BR article.

[Duke Mom]

Ok, I hope I'm reading this correctly (confusing me because the web address says "2009"):

http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2009/nba_finals_stats.html

I'm no expert, but - seems to me the Celtics defense (especially Ray Allen) was all over Kobe like white on rice, forcing Kobe to take some very difficult shots (thus, the low scoring per cent?). Despite having to face the Celtics' intense defense, Kobe managed to score almost one third of the Lakers' total points for the 7 game series (Bryant 200 points, Lakers 634 points) and also scored 54% more than the second highest scorer, Gasol (130 points). So, not sure I understand, as someone said referring to Kobe, how his "teammates got him over the hump."

These numbers contrast with the Celtics, whose high scorer, Paul Pierce, had 126 points in 7 games, which only represents 20% of the Celtics' total. And comes very close, unlike Kobe's total points, to 3 other players - Garnett (107 pts.), Allen (102 pts.) and Rondo (95 pts.), illustrating again, Kobe's big contribution to the Lakers.

http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/2009/nba_finals_stats.html

Does that make sense?

(Did I mention I saw Doc Rivers, a few days ago, in a Boston restaurant?)