James McAdoo to pull Andre Dawkins move?

[cbnaylor]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/

This could be huge for UNC. He would have to take three classes this summer to pull the same thing that Andre Dawkins did. This would give Carolina another inside threat a year early.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/

This could be huge for UNC. He would have to take three classes this summer to pull the same thing that Andre Dawkins did. This would give Carolina another inside threat a year early.


That's really funny, I was talking about the upcoming season with my boss over the weekend and we were talking about UNC and I had said "unless they have a miracle and James McAdoo comes early or something, I don't think they'll be that much better."

Now Im eating my words!! Arrgh! Come on James, you wanna go to your senior prom, right!?!?!

[Bluedog]

Three weeks ago:


“I talked to Coach Roy,” said McAdoo, who is ranked No. 13 in the HSH national top 50. “I’m not going to be coming early. I’m 100 percent sure about that.”

But could he?

“Yes, I could,” said McAdoo. “I’d have to take three summer courses. But I won’t.”

http://www.highschoolhoop.com/recruiting-news/2010/05/mcadoo-denies-unc-rumors/

Roy must be putting on the pressure...

[billyj]

Good for him. Would love to see him play for the UNC next year.

[kong123]

McAdoo now seriously considering early enrollment at UNC to play this fall.

“It’s definitely something that’s been known for a while,” McAdoo said of the rumors. “With the Wear Twins just now leaving people are starting to talk about it. Me and my family sat down and talked about it and it’s a high possibility. I’m considering it but its nothing set in stone yet.”

He only has to take 3 classes in summer school to graduate.

The reason for his change of heart? McAdoo wants to make the best decision possible for his long-term future. He’s got his sights set on playing professional basketball one day and this option may help him improve as a player.

“It’s way better than playing against high school competition," he said of the college game. "Even if I did go I could red-shirt, maybe put on some pounds and develop my game. But, there are so many things that could change. If I stay at Norfolk Christian we’d have a tough schedule but I don’t know if that would be the best for helping me get to my end goal.”

[devildeac]

McAdoo now seriously considering early enrollment at UNC to play this fall.

“It’s definitely something that’s been known for a while,” McAdoo said of the rumors. “With the Wear Twins just now leaving people are starting to talk about it. Me and my family sat down and talked about it and it’s a high possibility. I’m considering it but its nothing set in stone yet.”

He only has to take 3 classes in summer school to graduate.

The reason for his change of heart? McAdoo wants to make the best decision possible for his long-term future. He’s got his sights set on playing professional basketball one day and this option may help him improve as a player.

“It’s way better than playing against high school competition," he said of the college game. "Even if I did go I could red-shirt, maybe put on some pounds and develop my game. But, there are so many things that could change. If I stay at Norfolk Christian we’d have a tough schedule but I don’t know if that would be the best for helping me get to my end goal.”

Justin Knox/Justin Time may turn into Justin Who? Wear? What bus will their most recent recruit be under as he is "recruited over?":rolleyes:;)

[Lord Ash]

Darn. That is a HUGE get for Carolina... they will be very, very, very good this year, and SERIOUS competition for the ACC title for us.

[Class of '94]

Here we are a year later; and it appears that Carolina is doing everything it can to try and emulate what we did last year in regards to bringing in a player a year early. I can still remember all the grief my Carolina friends were giving me about Dawk coming in last year and how desperate we were. It's funny how so much can change in a year; but of course our Tarheel associates will try to spend this to a positive if McAdoo does come eventhough a few weeks earlier, UNC folks were saying how positive it was for him to stay and enjoy prom and the McDonald's AA game. :)

[MisterRoddy]

Darn. That is a HUGE get for Carolina... they will be very, very, very good this year, and SERIOUS competition for the ACC title for us.

Well, if I'm correct, it's not official just yet. Yes, it would be a big addition for this year's Carolina team but remember, this kid is still relatively undersized for his position and underaged at the collegiate level. I could see him playing a similar role that Josh Hairston/Ryan Kelly will play on the team in terms of impact (not necessarily playing style). He's a big time player that would no doubt a big impact of many games for the Heels but remember, he's young and will undoubtedly go through growing pains.

[CampbellBlueDevil]

At first I was glad to hear the news that he would MAY be coming to college early, but then I found out he would have to stay in college two years before he was eligible for the draft.

So instead of having a really good freshmen year, if he comes next year he will have a decent freshmen year (which will help UNC even more with their depth) and a monstrous sophomore year. I definitely hope he stays in high school, if not it looks like UNC will be more than fine next year.

[Class of '94]

Darn. That is a HUGE get for Carolina... they will be very, very, very good this year, and SERIOUS competition for the ACC title for us.

I might be really downplaying this; but I don't see Carolina being in strong contention for the ACC with us. Yes, they will be talented; but they've always been talented. Talent was never the problem; it's their chemistry and coaching. This is still the team that will be coming off a substandard year and had played in the NIT. Are they going to be better, of course! But are they going to make a Kentucky 1 year turnaround, my answer is no.....I don't see it. McAdoo is nice but he will have a learning curve and adjustments to make (similar to Dre). I wish McAdoo all the best; but I don't think he's going to have a huge impact on next year's team if he decides to come a year early.

[BD80]

Justin Knox/Justin Time may turn into Justin Who? Wear? What bus will their most recent recruit be under as he is "recruited over?":rolleyes:;)

I would call it beig recruited "through." It is as if Justin didn't exist.

Of course, Justin CAN'T be surprised, because ol' roy, the honest man that he is, certainly told Justin about this possibility before Justin signed with unc for his ONLY remaining year. I am sure Justin realized that he might never see the court again in his career.

What? roy DIDN'T tell him? I'm too shocked for words.

McAdoo, he would be missing team USA competition this summer. But who cares about commitment to one's country? Oh him, he coaches the National Champions :D

In my mind, the more disgruntled players in baby puke blew, the better. I'll take a group of fully gruntled Dukies any day.

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I say let him come in early. The sooner he comes to Carolina the sooner he can leave IMO. Id like to think we'd still have an edge over their front court :)

[Duvall]

I say let him come in early. The sooner he comes to Carolina the sooner he can leave IMO. Id like to think we'd still have an edge over their front court :)

Interestingly, that isn't true. I mean it's a little true, in that he would be a better player and NBA prospect as a sophomore in 2012 than he would as a freshman in 2012. But because of his age, he can't leave earlier than the 2012 Draft no matter what he chooses.

[CampbellBlueDevil]

I wish McAdoo all the best; but I don't think he's going to have a huge impact on next year's team if he decides to come a year early.

The thing is though he would be making an impact and the following year his impact will be even greater than if he came into college a year later.

[Class of '94]

The thing is though he would be making an impact and the following year his impact will be even greater than if he came into college a year later.

I agree; but that's true for any talented player. I expect Dre to have a much greater impact and role on this year's team then what he had last year. Again, I could be short sided and arrogant; but I say bring McAdoo on. I just don't see him hurting us anymore this upcoming year or the year after then if he decides to stay in HS. I feel that the 2010-11 Duke squad is still head and shoulders above the Heels; and with the recruits we're going after for 2011 and 2012, we're going to be just fine in comparison to McAdoo's or anyone else's impact and growth.

[kong123]

I was as surprised as anyone to read this. I do not believe this impacts Knox at all. Knox was brought in to spell Zeller. I think this is a great move. He is more athletic than the Wears and he is a better scorer as well. It isn't a done deal.... but things are looking up. Will this team be able to gell? If so, will they be able to compete for the ACC? I would say that we are quicker and more athletic all the way around. I think having great perimeter ability will also help us be a more well-rounded team. Will McAdoo have an HB type impact? No, but will he provide more impact than Dawkins? I think so. Roy plays lots of guys and then tightens his lineup later in the season. By the end of the year, we may have lots of options. No doubt, we are loaded with talent!

[Lord Ash]

I might be really downplaying this; but I don't see Carolina being in strong contention for the ACC with us. Yes, they will be talented; but they've always been talented. Talent was never the problem; it's their chemistry and coaching. This is still the team that will be coming off a substandard year and had played in the NIT. Are they going to be better, of course! But are they going to make a Kentucky 1 year turnaround, my answer is no.....I don't see it. McAdoo is nice but he will have a learning curve and adjustments to make (similar to Dre). I wish McAdoo all the best; but I don't think he's going to have a huge impact on next year's team if he decides to come a year early.

The problem is that it is NOT that team. It is that team minus some of the guys who folks felt were connected to the friction in the locker room, but with the addition of a very good point guard, a great shooting guard, possibly a top 10 overall recruit center, and the best high school player in the country coming in. That is almost a new starting five... and then you add a reliable fifth year senior on top of it. They are going to be very, very good if they can get McAdoo there.

[yancem]

I don't really have strong feelings either way. If he comes this year I expect him to play and contribute but I would think his impact would be similar to Dawkins last year. Given that Henson and Zeller aren't as good as Scheyer and Smith McAdoo will probably get more minutes but I expect most of unc's scoring to come from the perimeter. People make decent point about him making a larger impact in '11-'12 until we know how the rest of '11 and '12 recruiting winds up it too difficult to tell if that will have much of an impact on head to head matchups.

If he waits until next year to join unc's team then we probably won't see him play with Barnes or Henson so unc will most likely very young (or at least their most talented players). The counter to the "12 sophomore concern is that if waits a year and still sticks around for 2 seasons, he will be even better in '13.

Taking basketball affiliation out of the picture, I hope that he stays in high school and gets to experience being a senior, going to the prom and playing in the McDonalds AA game. There seems to be too much pressure for kids to grow up too fast. Life becomes a whirling dervish when you become and adult. I say stay a kid as long as your parent will let you.

[whirlieduke4]

No doubt, we are loaded with talent!

Hmmm...I think I've seen this before in reference to a Carolina team of recent memory...:)

[yancem]

Oh and by the way, I think that things a little more interesting when unc is competitive. Just as long as Duke is better and goes further in the tournament!

[kong123]

Oh and by the way, I think that things a little more interesting when unc is competitive. Just as long as Duke is better and goes further in the tournament!

1 out of the last 5 or 6 years isn't bad

[whirlieduke4]

1 out of the last 5 or 6 years isn't bad

82-50 isn't too shabby either.

[Duvall]

Oh and by the way, I think that things a little more interesting when unc is competitive.

One year. One frigging year. Duke fans...

[yancem]

1 out of the last 5 or 6 years isn't bad

That's some pretty interesting math. Aren't you forgetting about '06? Duke went 32-4, won the acc regular season and tournament and got to the sweet sixteen. Where did unc finish that year? Oh yeah, they finished 23-8, lost in the first round of the acc tournament, and in the second round of the ncaa tournament. And if you choose a less random sample size like say 10 years, ('01-'10) Duke has 2 nc's top unc's 2 nc's and 3 final fours to unc's 3 and I count 6 out of 10 seasons where Duke was better.

[yancem]

One year. One frigging year. Duke fans...

Um, did you not see the part where I said as long as Duke is BETTER! I unlike some Duke fans appreciate it a little more when we beat them when they are highly ranked then when they stink. Now don't get me wrong I love the occasional unc train wreck season like this past season. I just don't wish for that to be the norm. If we blow them out every year then the rivalry will devolve into unc vs ncsu!

[Jeff Frosh]

Is McAdoo a super quick point guard? No? Then there still is no reason to think Roy will know what to do no matter how talented the rest of his "team" is.

[MarkD83]

http://northcarolina.scout.com/

This could be huge for UNC. He would have to take three classes this summer to pull the same thing that Andre Dawkins did. This would give Carolina another inside threat a year early.

You could also look at this with a "dark-blue" shade of glasses. Roy lost the Wear twins and is looking at Henson and Zeller and seeing little possiblity of improvement in their games and is getting really desperate.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm not sure it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be. In all honesty, I don't know if we can say if Andre Dawkins or Duke benefited on a great scale from his early presence.
Before I get totally shot down (I will regardless) here are my thoughts, and then a comparison.
Excluding the tragedy that befell him and his family (which is very hard to exclude) he and the staff both admitted that he wasn't putting out the effort needed for court time. This was happening before his tragic loss, which is why I add it. I think a lot of his attitude and effort in practice (which related to lessened minutes) was due to maturity..or lack thereof. Not saying that as an individual he didn't do a nice job for his situation, but I think it was still a bit of an overwhelming experience. As the season went on he saw more minutes, and he improved..but I think if he came a year later he would have excelled that much more for the length of the season. I think by the time he leaves Duke, he will be an awesome player, but I can't help but think this was a lost season for him. Once again, his family's loss does play a part, it has to, but the writing was on the wall before that event.
I can't help but wonder the same about McAdoo...if he comes it will be telling to see how he handles it. I can easily picture him not having near as much an impact as we or heels' fans imagine.

[Newton_14]

I'm not sure it's as big a deal as people are making it out to be. In all honesty, I don't know if we can say if Andre Dawkins or Duke benefited on a great scale from his early presence.
Before I get totally shot down (I will regardless) here are my thoughts, and then a comparison.
Excluding the tragedy that befell him and his family (which is very hard to exclude) he and the staff both admitted that he wasn't putting out the effort needed for court time. This was happening before his tragic loss, which is why I add it. I think a lot of his attitude and effort in practice (which related to lessened minutes) was due to maturity..or lack thereof. Not saying that as an individual he didn't do a nice job for his situation, but I think it was still a bit of an overwhelming experience. As the season went on he saw more minutes, and he improved..but I think if he came a year later he would have excelled that much more for the length of the season. I think by the time he leaves Duke, he will be an awesome player, but I can't help but think this was a lost season for him. Once again, his family's loss does play a part, it has to, but the writing was on the wall before that event.
I can't help but wonder the same about McAdoo...if he comes it will be telling to see how he handles it. I can easily picture him not having near as much an impact as we or heels' fans imagine.

Not going to shoot you down buddy as I agree with a lot of what you wrote here. One point of contention though is I heard the attitude/effort issues came after the tragedy which I can give him a break on if that is true.

In some ways it was a lost season for Andre as like you I do believe that had he come in this year on a normal schedule and had the benefit of the very valuable summer season where the newbies get integrated both academic (huge) and basketball (also huge) wise, he would have had a better individual freshman year.

However, that said, I am very much convinced that had Andre not come in, we may not have the hardware we now have. His play in the ACC Title game was huge and I am not sure we win that game without him. Not only did he provide a scoring punch in that first half that was sorely needed, Nolan was saddled with foul trouble and possibly fouls out if Andre's play does not keep him safely on the bench in that first half.

I am even more convinced that his 2 Three's in the Baylor game were so big we might not win that game without him either.

Looking back I am very glad Andre came early and I agree he will be a darn good player in his 4 years. We have just seen a wee little bit of what he is capable of.

[Vincetaylor]

James McAdoo. Big deal. I could care less. Good for UNC. It won't make them that much better next year. I love watching Roy trying to scrape together a front line next year to avoid finishing 3rd in the ACC.

[Kedsy]

I was as surprised as anyone to read this. I do not believe this impacts Knox at all. Knox was brought in to spell Zeller. I think this is a great move. He is more athletic than the Wears and he is a better scorer as well. It isn't a done deal.... but things are looking up. Will this team be able to gell? If so, will they be able to compete for the ACC? I would say that we are quicker and more athletic all the way around. I think having great perimeter ability will also help us be a more well-rounded team. Will McAdoo have an HB type impact? No, but will he provide more impact than Dawkins? I think so. Roy plays lots of guys and then tightens his lineup later in the season. By the end of the year, we may have lots of options. No doubt, we are loaded with talent!

I agree. It would be a great move for UNC. And Knox will still get his minutes and with Knox and McAdoo they're better off than with two Wears. As far as competing for the top spot in the ACC, if you thought they were there before the Wears left then they'd be there again with Knox/McAdoo. If not, then not (and personally I happen to be in this latter camp, but it's just my opinion). But I'd say either way with McAdoo they probably leapfrog VaTech and State as the 2nd best team in the conference.

As far as McAdoo's impact vs. that of Dawkins, I understand why you mention them in the same sentence, but I don't understand why their relative impact would matter.

[Dev11]

Regarding Dre, we also can't ignore that he was another relatively quick body in practice who is at least physically capable of driving and jumping at the hoop (though he needed work actually getting the ball in, but I'm sure that's coming soon). Before Andre decided to come early, we were talking about Davidson getting about 5-7 solid mpg to spell Jon and Nolan, so this had to be an improvement, especially in practice, since only one of Jon and Nolan could match up against Seth. There's no telling how the games would have played out without Dre. Think about how much more responsibility Nolan realized he had to take up on both sides of the ball with G's departure, you would think he would understand not having a reliable backup behind him and embrace the challenge, though there's no way to know how it would have ended up. I'm certainly happy with the result we got :).

McAdoo may well provide that same practice depth. I don't really know much about his game and how he compares to the starters Zeller and Henson, but it certainly can't hurt Carolina as a team to have that extra athlete around. Like most people here, I think its probably a positive development for Carolina to get McAdoo early, but probably not a great choice for McAdoo. Coming from an NBA pedigree, I imagine his family will do their homework on figuring out which decision improves his pro stock, which is certainly not something you can blame the kid for.

[BattierBattalion]

Could there be anymore Deja Vu here? One team wins the national championship and is heavily favored for the next year. Rival team loses players and scraps together a team with early matriculation from a recruit. Just saying...

Let's be realistic, guys. UNC was already going to be a very, very good team next year, and they add the one type of player they need (if you discount a speedy point guard), a low post banger (as opposed to Zeller and Henson who are more face up guys).

If Larry Drew puts it together, Barnes and Bullock provide the impact and upgraded need from the 2 & 3 position, and the low post plays to their strengths and stays healthy, then well you have a legitimate NC contender. After all, no one (including most of us) gave us a chance late '09. Why make the same mistake twice?

[Newton_14]

As far as McAdoo's impact vs. that of Dawkins, I understand why you mention them in the same sentence, but I don't understand why their relative impact would matter.

I agree because realistically, if McAdoo does come early, unless unc wins the ACC Reg & Tourney, and the National Title, would you not have to conclude that no matter what kind of numbers he puts up, he would have had less impact than Andre?

At best McAdoo could match the impact Andre had, but unless I am missing something, he cannot possibly surpass the impact Andre had.

The unfortunate part is like some of us figured, losing the Wears is going to end up helping the heels this coming season.

[roywhite]

Could there be anymore Deja Vu here? One team wins the national championship and is heavily favored for the next year. Rival team loses players and scraps together a team with early matriculation from a recruit. Just saying...

Let's be realistic, guys. UNC was already going to be a very, very good team next year, and they add the one type of player they need (if you discount a speedy point guard), a low post banger (as opposed to Zeller and Henson who are more face up guys).

If Larry Drew puts it together, Barnes and Bullock provide the impact and upgraded need from the 2 & 3 position, and the low post plays to their strengths and stays healthy, then well you have a legitimate NC contender. After all, no one (including most of us) gave us a chance late '09. Why make the same mistake twice?

That's a number of "if" questions.

And there are probably more:
If Roy Williams can connect with his players...
If team chemistry is drastically improved...
If perimeter defense improves significantly...
If an effective rotation is determined that works for the team and keeps the many McD types happy...

[Big Pappa]

Let's be realistic, guys. UNC was already going to be a very, very good team next year, and they add the one type of player they need (if you discount a speedy point guard), a low post banger (as opposed to Zeller and Henson who are more face up guys).


I very much disagree with you here. I think they will be pretty good (without McAdoo), but nowhere near "very, very good". It really all depends on how good HB really is and if he can dominate the way UNC fans think he can. McAdoo of course makes a big difference, but even if he does come I wouldn't consider them a "very, very good team."

As Roy said there are many questions about UNC and while McAdoo may answer a couple, there are still many, many more.

[DevilHorns]

I think its better to have UNC sans Ed Davis and the Wear twins than with McAdoo and Knox...

McAdoo has incredible talent, but lets me honest, the jump from Junior year of H.S. to the ACC is pretty damn steep. Expect many growing pains if this happens.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Could there be anymore Deja Vu here? One team wins the national championship and is heavily favored for the next year. Rival team loses players and scraps together a team with early matriculation from a recruit. Just saying...

Let's be realistic, guys. UNC was already going to be a very, very good team next year, and they add the one type of player they need (if you discount a speedy point guard), a low post banger (as opposed to Zeller and Henson who are more face up guys).

If Larry Drew puts it together, Barnes and Bullock provide the impact and upgraded need from the 2 & 3 position, and the low post plays to their strengths and stays healthy, then well you have a legitimate NC contender. After all, no one (including most of us) gave us a chance late '09. Why make the same mistake twice?


First off, I don't think MOST OF US gave us no chance of winning it all. We were playing great basketball at the end of the year and Singler was playing incredibly so don't downplay what our expectations were of us last year. Second, exactly what do you mean by if Larry Drew puts it together? Becomes a better ball handler and decision maker? A better shooter? A better mentality? There's a lot the kid could improve upon and Roy's patience with him is already running out. Third, their low post presence playing to their strengths has anything to do with it IMO. Their low post was great last year and they lost 2 first rounders. Will they impact the team? Of course, but Zeller's fragility and Henson's lack of strength will impact them as well. Foul trouble will be an issue for them. There's still a lot of question marks about this team and they're a ways away from being NC contenders.

[Kedsy]

Could there be anymore Deja Vu here? One team wins the national championship and is heavily favored for the next year. Rival team loses players and scraps together a team with early matriculation from a recruit. Just saying...

Let's be realistic, guys. UNC was already going to be a very, very good team next year, and they add the one type of player they need (if you discount a speedy point guard), a low post banger (as opposed to Zeller and Henson who are more face up guys).

If Larry Drew puts it together, Barnes and Bullock provide the impact and upgraded need from the 2 & 3 position, and the low post plays to their strengths and stays healthy, then well you have a legitimate NC contender. After all, no one (including most of us) gave us a chance late '09. Why make the same mistake twice?

Well, it's funny to find myself agreeing with a Heel (in my previous post) and disagreeing with someone named after Shane Battier. UNC was in no way "heavily favored" last year, at least if you're talking about the ACC or NCAA championships. The press thought they were essentially co-favorites in the league with Duke, but people who saw through the championship cloud knew that was just blowing smoke. Most people saw them as a solid top two team in the ACC with a chance to finish first. Personally I didn't think they were that good.

McAdoo would give UNC frontcourt depth, which is similar to Andre giving us backcourt depth last year, but the comparison ends there. I can't say that last year I saw a national championship in Duke's immediate future, but I was fairly confident in a 2010 Final Four appearance, starting whenever you wish to start counting in 2009, and I wasn't alone. We had five upperclassmen out of the top seven in our likely rotation.

Going into 2010-11, UNC was going to be a good but not any better team, even with the Wears. Their biggest needs were experience, outside shooting, and a PG who could run Roy's system. Once the Wears transferred, you could add frontcourt depth to their list of inadequacies and, yes, McAdoo (and Knox) would address that. Barnes and Bullock may (or may not) address the outside shooting, and they're still sitting without the PG or the experience. With McAdoo they'd be a little bit ahead of where they were with the Wears, but not significantly better than "good," much less "very, very good." They could make a little noise, but they are not "legitimate NC contender[s]." And I think I can say that and still be "realistic."

Also, nothing I've read suggests McAdoo would be a "low post banger." Even compared to Zeller and Henson. Most of the reports I've seen list him at 205, just a few pounds more than Henson.


First off, I don't think MOST OF US gave us no chance of winning it all. We were playing great basketball at the end of the year and Singler was playing incredibly so don't downplay what our expectations were of us last year.

Well, even though I said what I said above, your statement is incorrect and the OP's statement is true: most of us did in fact give us very little or no chance of winning it all. Before we started marching through the NCAAs, the consensus on the boards seemed to be split between Sweet 16 and Elite 8. Sure there were some of us (but certainly not most) who said Final Four, but very few were talking national championship going into the postseason. To say otherwise is revisionist history.

[DreAllDay]

If McAdoo enrolls early it will obviously help the Heels a bunch and put the Heels as the clear cut ACC preseason #2 team and a top 15 ranking imo.

Henson and Barnes will be very tough next year folks, and the holes are going to be hungry... with the addition of McAdoo that gives them a four man rotation of quality big men(Henson, Zeller, Knox, McAdoo) and that's the same type of formula we used on our way to the national title this year.

As far as the Dre comparisons, let's keep in mind that Dre enrolled early and was also just still very physically immature as well. I mean the kid had/has braces for crying at loud and his nickname is baby face! McAdoo on the other hand is more built and likely more mature; this could help him make more of an impact than Dre did, if he does come early.

I'd like to see McAdoo come early, it would certainly make for an even more epic Duke-UNC matchup.

[airowe]

As far as the Dre comparisons, let's keep in mind that Dre enrolled early and was also just still very physically immature as well. I mean the kid had/has braces for crying at loud and his nickname is baby face! McAdoo on the other hand is more built and likely more mature; this could help him make more of an impact than Dre did, if he does come early.

This is just incorrect, really. Andre was a fourth year Junior in High School and was pretty physically developed for a shooting guard, regardless of how many braces he had on his teeth and what his nickname was.

At 6'4", 190 lbs, Andre was 4 inches shorter but only 15 lbs lighter than James McAdoo. While he may be "banger" in high school, the physicality of players in college is much different than the guys he goes up against playing for Norfolk Christian. Not to mention, Andre's success as a shooter wasn't nearly as predicated on his bulk as McAdoo's will be tied to his.

I'm not saying McAdoo won't be a talented player at some point this year, I'm sure he will. But to think he'll be averaging 20.1 mpg and 10.1 ppg for the first 10 games I think is a little off-base. He'll give unc another post player and allow Prince Harry to not have to play in the post.

If this happens, it will be a win-win for the heels, but to say Andre was physically immature and McAdoo is more built and more mature is simply not true...

[ricks68]

Note: Opinion is not directed to last poster, but to the general tone of the thread.

Where is the comparison of experience and coaching acumen in the aforementioned equation?

I mean, like we went into last season with 3 starting seniors and 2 juniors. How can anyone consider comparing a very young and inexperienced 'hole next year's team, with Roy Williams coaching them, to the quality of our well-coached and mature team from last year?

Also, if you think that the Wear twins were the core of the inability of the 'holes coach to produce a cohesive unit, then you don't know jack, Jack. (Just an expression not meant to put anyone down or insult anyone's bball knowledge.)

A more sensible comparison might be to compare the next year 'hole team to maybe last year's Kentucky team or the Memphis team from the recent past. I am saying this from the perspective of the reliance of youth and incoming player rankings. The questions I believe that need to be considered, I think, should be centered around Roy's ability (or lack of) to get this unit to jell as an experienced and well-coached team.

Was Roy able to get the high school "star" players to work together effectively last year? No, he obviously couldn't. So, what has changed for this upcoming year for the 'holes? Maybe, not a lot. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Let's just see if '(h)ole Roy has the knowledge and ability to pull it off, as he is just bringing in more young, inexperienced, "star" high school players again.

Oh, and by the way, if Roy insists on still emphasizing offense over defense--------and, still keeps bringing in players that are expecting to be the center of attention, how does he get them to work together as a "fist?"

JMHO

ricks

[BattierBattalion]

First off, I don't think MOST OF US gave us no chance of winning it all. We were playing great basketball at the end of the year and Singler was playing incredibly so don't downplay what our expectations were of us last year. Second, exactly what do you mean by if Larry Drew puts it together? Becomes a better ball handler and decision maker? A better shooter? A better mentality? There's a lot the kid could improve upon and Roy's patience with him is already running out. Third, their low post presence playing to their strengths has anything to do with it IMO. Their low post was great last year and they lost 2 first rounders. Will they impact the team? Of course, but Zeller's fragility and Henson's lack of strength will impact them as well. Foul trouble will be an issue for them. There's still a lot of question marks about this team and they're a ways away from being NC contenders.

To answer your first point, by late '09, I meant early in the basketball season. I can't remember anyone giving us a significant chance going into the season.

As far as your second point, yes to all of that. Larry Drew has all of the physical tools to be an elite point guard, maybe not Ty Lawson or Raymond Felton, but a FF-caliber one. You're right about Roy's patience but you never know about him either. Maybe Roy will get it too...

One of the biggest problems last year with the low post was that they only had one true banger (Deon Thompson), so other teams could essentially double team him off the other low poster because Zeller would usually drift outside and Henson/Davis had less developed offensive games. I think if Zeller, Henson, and McAdoo can all work effectively inside (aka not shy away), then it goes a long way for their offense.




That's a number of "if" questions.

And there are probably more:
If Roy Williams can connect with his players...
If team chemistry is drastically improved...
If perimeter defense improves significantly...
If an effective rotation is determined that works for the team and keeps the many McD types happy...

Agree with you. Consider that two poisons from UNC's locker room are gone (Ed Davis and Marcus Ginyard) though.


In sum, UNC has a really good team. You guys are all right in that there are still more questions than there are answers. Let's just not downplay what they're capable of if certain variables go their way.

[wilko]

Personally, I hope it doesnt come to pass.
I enjoyed their aroma far too much last year to wish it away.
May it continue for 10k years.. We aint bulletproof and shouldnt wish for our competition to get a bigger a gun to use against us.


However, if it DOES happen.... I will get immense joy in calling the Holes a bunch of copycats and deride them as much as possible for Roy following K's lead again.

[kong123]

I think chemistry on the court was a big issue because there wasn't a leader on the court, will HB be the leader or will LD take that roll? Also, chemistry takes a nosedive when a team isn't capable of consistently scoring on offense or defense. I believe we will improve next year with incoming recruiting class as well as the improvement of last years remaining freshman. One thing you cannot deny, our front court is more capable of scoring than Dukes front court was last year. I haven't looked up the stats, but I would say that Zeller and Henson averaged more points together than the four post players Duke had last year. I think both Duke and UNC will be more balanced offensively next year. The more you guys bag on next years UNC team, the more it will hurt next year when and if they prove you wrong. I expect that next years rivalry game in Chapel Hill will decide the number one see in the ACC tournament.

[Bob Green]

One thing you cannot deny, our front court is more capable of scoring than Dukes front court was last year. I haven't looked up the stats, but I would say that Zeller and Henson averaged more points together than the four post players Duke had last year.

This isn't a true statement. I did look up the stats; Zeller and Henson averaged 15 points and 9 rebounds per game, while Duke's four player front court averaged 19.3 points and 20.6 rebounds per game.

[kong123]

Like I said, I wasn't sure. But, if you look at the last 12 or so games of the season for Henson, his pt/gm doubled as did his rebounds. Also, Zeller was hurt for much of the season and when he got back, his minutes were limited. Neither started until halfway through the season and they accomplished those stats in far less minutes. If you were to break down pts per minute I think there would be a large difference. 19 pts split between 4 players that total 80 minutes per game and 2 players averaging 15 pts per game in 35 minutes per game, there is a big difference in offensive output.

[CrazieDUMB]

Airowe touched on this before, but remember that generally speaking bigs take longer to develop anyway. Guards like Dawkins (and Scheyer as a freshman) can step in right away, but it sounds kind of risky to bring in a big that isn't fully mature, especially if there arent any heavy bangers that can push him around in practice. I say bring it on. We're loaded next year with players that don't just have potential but proven success. I fear no sheep.

[Duvall]

I expect that next years rivalry game in Chapel Hill will decide the number one see in the ACC tournament.

I dunno. I think there's a pretty good chance that Duke will have more than a one-game lead on Virginia Tech going into its regular season finale, so the number one seed may already be decided.

[MChambers]

I do not believe this impacts Knox at all. Knox was brought in to spell Zeller. I think this is a great move. He is more athletic than the Wears and he is a better scorer as well.
He may be a better scorer than the Wears would have been, but I think it's pretty debatable. You're talking about an inside player who only made 44% of his two pointers last year and averaged something like 6 points on a team, in a weak conference, that could have used some offense. Now I've never seen Knox play, so maybe I'm missing something, but I don't expect to see Knox score much at all next year.

On the positive side, Alabama finished at #60 in Pomeroy, one spot below UNC, so I think he'll be able to fit in. :)

[brickey]

That's a number of "if" questions.

And there are probably more:
If Roy Williams can connect with his players...
If team chemistry is drastically improved...
If perimeter defense improves significantly...
If an effective rotation is determined that works for the team and keeps the many McD types happy...


Here's one more:

If John Henson can put on (and maintain) 30 or so lbs. and improve his FT shooting.

Dude shot 43% from the stripe last year. Without improvement, hack-a-stick might be a common phrase next year.

Were I a hole, I'd also worry about the durability of my starting front-court (especially WRT to Tyler, given his injury history).

Back on topic, I do think McAdoo would give them a bit more depth/flexibility at the 3 and 4 spots --he's rumored to shoot it pretty well from outside-- although I concur with Airowe/CD that the learning curve for forwards is usually much steeper than for guards.

[Kedsy]

One thing you cannot deny, our front court is more capable of scoring than Dukes front court was last year.

Well, this is true, but your backcourt is far less capable. Comparing next year's UNC team to this past year's Duke team is an apples and oranges situation. The key is experience and PG play.

[Bob Green]

If you were to break down pts per minute I think there would be a large difference.

There are several different ways to look at scoring. Let's compare Points Per Shot:

Brian Zoubek: 1.58
Miles Plumlee: 1.39
Ty Zeller: 1.31
Lance Thomas: 1.23
Mason Plumlee: 1.18
John Henson: 1.17

[airowe]

If John Henson can put on (and maintain) 30 or so lbs. and improve his FT shooting.

Dude shot 43% from the stripe last year. Without improvement, hack-a-stick might be a common phrase next year.


Whack-A-Pole?

FWIW, I asked Henson how much he weighed on Friday night @ the TOC. He said he was up to 209. Still less than McAdoo though. ;)

I'm wondering, who was the last guy to skip his Sr. Year of High School and score a point in the ACC the next year?

[Slackerb]

On a sidenote:

What is up with all the entitlement about guys reclassifying?

Was Andre Dawkins the first player to reclassify ever?

Why is it pulling an Andre Dawkins? Between this thread and the front page article that claims Roy is "inspired" by K....

And people round here wonder why Duke fans are generally regarded as snobby and self-entitled.

[kong123]

There are several different ways to look at scoring. Let's compare Points Per Shot:

Brian Zoubek: 1.58
Miles Plumlee: 1.39
Ty Zeller: 1.31
Lance Thomas: 1.23
Mason Plumlee: 1.18
John Henson: 1.17

Duke front court, 4 players= 75 minutes per game and averaged 19 pts/game
Henson and Zeller combined for 35 minutes per game and averaged 15

You can argue and spin it all you want, but your front court wasn't your offensive strength last year and it will not be this year. While Duke will be a bit more balanced this season, Smith and Singler will still average 18 pt a piece and KI will be close. The brothers will pick up the rest when there isn't a jump shot available, a KI penetration, or after a rebound. They will be more productive than last years Duke front court because of KI.

Our frontcourt will not be as strong as it has been in the last few years, but we are still talented. Offensively, I believe UNC will be more talented in the frontcourt.

[Kedsy]

Offensively, I believe UNC will be more talented in the frontcourt.

Do you get extra points for that?

[kong123]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/North-Carolina-may-get-a-boost-from-an-early-enr;_ylt=Avt29XluH0STn6Y0rV3lICbevbYF?urn=ncaab,24 4992

[MisterRoddy]

Duke front court, 4 players= 75 minutes per game and averaged 19 pts/game
Henson and Zeller combined for 35 minutes per game and averaged 15

You can argue and spin it all you want, but your front court wasn't your offensive strength last year and it will not be this year. While Duke will be a bit more balanced this season, Smith and Singler will still average 18 pt a piece and KI will be close. The brothers will pick up the rest when there isn't a jump shot available, a KI penetration, or after a rebound. They will be more productive than last years Duke front court because of KI.

Our frontcourt will not be as strong as it has been in the last few years, but we are still talented. Offensively, I believe UNC will be more talented in the frontcourt.

This isn't reliable info as Duke had the big 3 scoring most of their points, therefore there not being a need for much frontcourt scoring, whereas UNC was strugglig looking for points the whole year and would take them anywhere they can get them. Not to mention Zeller not even playing for a healthy portion of the season.

[kong123]

Do you get extra points for that?

no, but a month ago when the Wears left, it looked like UNC's frontcourt was in a lot of trouble

[kong123]

This isn't reliable info as Duke had the big 3 scoring most of their points, therefore there not being a need for much frontcourt scoring, whereas UNC was strugglig lookin for points the whole year and would take them anywhere they can get. Not to mention Zeller not even playing for a healthy portion of the season.

those are the stats, again, we will all spin them in a way that suits our interests. do you really think that Duke will be an inside out team next year? Smith and Singler will take as many shots next year as they took this year. That only leaves Jon's hand-me-downs for KI and the rest of the team.

[Bob Green]

You can argue and spin it all you want, but your front court wasn't your offensive strength last year and it will not be this year...

...Our frontcourt will not be as strong as it has been in the last few years, but we are still talented. Offensively, I believe UNC will be more talented in the frontcourt.

I'm neither arguing nor spinning, I am engaging in discourse while looking at statistics from a different angle. Points Per Shot reflects offensive efficiency. We can also look at Field Goal Percentage:

Brian Zoubek: .638
Miles Plumlee: .561
Ty Zeller: .521
John Henson: .486
Mason Plumlee: .462
Lance Thomas: .439

I also believe the rebounding numbers are extremely important. Do you remember all the second chance 3-pointers Duke's perimeter players knocked down off of offensive rebounds?

[MisterRoddy]

those are the stats, again, we will all spin them in a way that suits our interests. do you really think that Duke will be an inside out team next year? Smith and Singler will take as many shots next year as they took this year. That only leaves Jon's hand-me-downs for KI and the rest of the team.

I never said Duke would be an in-out team. No doubt that Kyle and Nolan will get their shots up but I highly doubt that Kyrie's driving and feeds to Seth, Andre, Plumlee's, etc. would be counted as "hand-me-downs."

[Mike Corey]

Without someone to drive Roy Williams' Awshucksmobile, the Heels will remain a step behind.

[kong123]

I'm neither arguing nor spinning, I am engaging in discourse while looking at statistics from a different angle. Points Per Shot reflects offensive efficiency. We can also look at Field Goal Percentage:

Brian Zoubek: .638
Miles Plumlee: .561
Ty Zeller: .521
John Henson: .486
Mason Plumlee: .462
Lance Thomas: .439

I also believe the rebounding numbers are extremely important. Do you remember all the second chance 3-pointers Duke's perimeter players knocked down off of offensive rebounds?

I would also say that the UNC players were creating their own offense most of the time while the Duke players were mostly putbacks after rebounds. Rebounding is important too, but UNC had Davis, Thompson, Zeller, and Henson. They averaged almost 25 rebounds combined last year.

It really doesn't matter. Its all in the past. It will be interesting to see Duke morph into a more balanced team next year and it will be interesting to watch UNC try to redeem themselves. I think UNC will compete at a high level next year.

[BlueThru&Thru]

Aw Shucks, it looks like the Phoenix may be rising from the ashes

[BD80]

Well, this is true, but your backcourt is far less capable. Comparing next year's UNC team to this past year's Duke team is an apples and oranges situation. The key is experience and PG play.

I would suggest it is more like comparing apples (Duke) to road apples.

[Duvall]

Aw Shucks, it looks like the Phoenix may be rising from the ashes

Not too many directions to go from 82-50.

[Kedsy]

no, but a month ago when the Wears left, it looked like UNC's frontcourt was in a lot of trouble

I agree. If McAdoo goes through with it they are back to Wear they were (so to speak), and probably a little bit ahead. The question, of course, is how good is being back to where they were?

In the past, it usually took a few years to recover after a disaster season like the one UNC suffered through. It used to take freshmen-dominated teams a year or two before they could gel into Final Four contenders. These days teams don't have that much time, but it remains to be seen how quickly the UNC team can jump from one place to another. They'll be good, but I'd be surprised if they can take the quantum leap before 2011-12.

[BlueThru&Thru]

I'm with you brother, but it might be 33

[JohnGalt]

Whack-A-Pole?

I'm wondering, who was the last guy to skip his Sr. Year of High School and score a point in the ACC the next year?

Andre was frosh in high school twice, but never a senior, right?


Not too many directions to go from 82-50.

Not bad for 3k, Duvall.

[yancem]

Duke front court, 4 players= 75 minutes per game and averaged 19 pts/game
Henson and Zeller combined for 35 minutes per game and averaged 15

You can argue and spin it all you want, but your front court wasn't your offensive strength last year and it will not be this year. While Duke will be a bit more balanced this season, Smith and Singler will still average 18 pt a piece and KI will be close. The brothers will pick up the rest when there isn't a jump shot available, a KI penetration, or after a rebound. They will be more productive than last years Duke front court because of KI.

Our frontcourt will not be as strong as it has been in the last few years, but we are still talented. Offensively, I believe UNC will be more talented in the frontcourt.

This conveniently leaves Singler out of our front court. While he primarily played the sf position he often scored in the paint and at 6'8", 230 lbs is a more accomplished low post threat than either Zeller or Henson. Our other front court players didn't score very much because Singler was a primary scorer. Also, Zeller is know to float around the perimeter from time to time and Henson's low post scoring comes primarily from put backs not from post moves.

I think that the Plumlees will be as offensively effective as Hensen and Zeller will be next year. You have to imagine that bulk of unc's offense will come from Barnes, Bullock, Drew and Strickland on the perimeter with Hensen and Zeller cleaning up rebounds and the occasional alley oop or fast break dunk.

I might be selling Zeller a little short, he certainly has some skills, but I think many are selling the Plumlees short also. Miles has a nice little jump hook and 10-12 ft set shot, while Mason has solid face up skills and can also hit the 3.

[BlueThru&Thru]

I might be selling Zeller a little short, he certainly has some skills...

If Zeller learns to play like a 7 footer and develop post skills thatdon't include bringing the ball down for others to swat away or block, he could have a big impact.

[Bob Green]

I might be selling Zeller a little short, he certainly has some skills, but I think many are selling the Plumlees short also. Miles has a nice little jump hook and 10-12 ft set shot, while Mason has solid face up skills and can also hit the 3.

I agree with you on both points. Zeller is skilled and posters on DBR tend to overemphasize his injuries. He definitely has the potential to have a breakout season if he can stay healthy. It is easy to look to Zoubek's senior season as an example of Zeller's potential as an upperclassman.

In regard to the Plumlees, I believe Miles and Mason will both be stronger performers this coming season.

[BlueThru&Thru]

With regard to being a skilled post player, in 2 partial seasons, I can't remember Zeller being dominant. Both he and Henson have to develop strength and polish to be effective enough to make the team a contender. If McAdoo goes early, I have to wonder, despite his talent, whether he can step into the college game and make a big difference. Any bodies help but, I think their future lies in how good HB and company really are and, above all, whether Drew makes significant improvements over the past year.

[sagegrouse]

WRT the various posts here, I don't know if it is more fun to argue with a Duke fan, with whom I disagree, or with a UNC fan. Probably the latter, because I expect us to be on separate sides.

WRT to UNC next year in the front court, I never thought it was a matter of talent or stats between the comparable big men on Duke and UNC. It was the hazard UNC faced relying on the brittle Zeller and the ectomorphic Henson as the only true front court players. That seemed worse than Duke's prospective reliance this year, and prior to Andre, on just Scheyer and Smith as proven performers in the back court. They had more experience and had proven durable during their careers.

Now UNC has added some depth and should get needed minutes out of Justin Knox and perhaps McAdoo (although I have totally lost track in this thread of the status of his decision). That would or might reduce the need to rely on the muscular Graves or the freshman Barnes for major minutes at the 4.

Duke has much more depth in the front court with the Plumlees, who all optimists like me expect to make major strides over the summer; the talented but thin Ryan Kelly, and the strong but unproven Josh Hairston. Kyle, of course, can play the 4 very effectively; heck he played the 5 at times his freshman and sophomore years.

The other factor is the ease with which new players transition into college and the Duke or UNC systems. At Duke, freshmen were seldom a major factor, unless the cupboard was bare and they had to play, as in 1983 and 2000. The system under K, especially the requirements on defense, were so far beyond what new freshmen could handle that it took time to adjust and get PT. I can't say about UNC, because I haven't followed the program: so I don't know if Knox and/or McAdoo will adjust fast enough to make a contribution independent of being practice players and emergency substitutes.

sagegrouse

[gumbomoop]

.... by late '09, I meant early in the basketball season. I can't remember anyone giving us a significant chance going into the season.

A minor dissent here. In the lead-up to '09-'10 season, there was of course a debate about where Duke should be ranked preseason, or about how deep [or shallow] might be Duke's run in the '10 NCAAT.

I and several others took the position that, given the likely relative weakness of the top-tier NCAA teams overall - compared, specifically, to UNC, UConn, and Pitt going into the '08-'09 season - that the 2d-tier teams - i.e, Duke and others in the 7-10 preseason range - had every reason to be optimistic that they could challenge for a FF birth. Anyone who predicted Duke could certainly challenge the not-much-better-top-tier teams was also certainly affording Duke a "significant chance going into the season." [As this constitutes patting myself on the back, I hasten to admit that I also had high expectations for the Heels, and was among the very last to see how bad they'd become. Further, I assumed that MP2 would be great, and had not the faintest clue about Z's ...... Z-ness.]

More impressive, however, were several posters who actually predicted that Duke would be in Indy. One might go back to 9/21-22/09 threads and find, for example, that Sandman said, "Duke WILL be there" . I think flyingdutchdevil predicted a FF, maybe NC. Jumbo ended one thread by asserting that Duke would be "very, very good." Now Heaven knows Jumbo needs no overweening praise from me [and I do not encourage any of you to praise Jumbo for any reason......, well, except on "Retire Scheyer"......], and "very, very good" is hardly explicit, but the phrase was implicitly a rebuff to those who feared an early exit from NCAAT in '10.

But most impressive to me, looking back, was airowe, who predicted on 9/22/09 that we'd "get to Indy." Even more impressive, airowe's signature that day - remember, that day was 9/22/09 - was "One for the thumb in 2011." Get it? Well, [I]airowe sure got it. [Unless..... unless somehow airowe hacked into that thread and changed the signature. Fess up, airowe, you Devil you.]

On 3/1/10, when Duke's record was 25-4, I predicted [yes, used the word "prediction"] that Duke would end at 35-5. One would need to review our late-season schedule and ACCT possibilities to figure out what scenarios were implied in this prediction. Whatever those scenarios [davekay1971 played one of them out to have Duke winning NC over UK.....], they all involved Duke in NC, and 75% of them had Duke as NC. Too bad my crystal ball wasn't nearly that clear 5 or 6 months earlier.

But Sandman, and probably flyingdutchdevil and Jumbo, and probably a few others, and definitley airowe - all of them get some credit for giving Duke a "significant chance" from the beginning.

[DukieInBrasil]

The system under K, especially the requirements on defense, were so far beyond what new freshmen could handle that it took time to adjust and get PT. I can't say about UNC, because I haven't followed the program: so I don't know if Knox and/or McAdoo will adjust fast enough to make a contribution independent of being practice players and emergency substitutes.

sagegrouse

While Knox will have to adjust to UNC's system, he'll be coming in as a Sr., if I'm not mistaken, so I think that it's pretty reasonable to expect him to be able to at least come close to or surpassing the performance he had last year. Roughly 6pts and 4 boards per game. While not shabby, it's hardly the level of a savior. I definitely agree about McAdoo though, if he does decide on trying to graduate early. He'll still be a year behind everybody in terms of physical development.

[Gthoma2a]

You really think that the Plumlees will have a problem being an option on the inside when the defense is spread out so much by our perimeter? Inside outside just means that they can take on one guy. Both of them are dangerous on the inside and with the outside threats we have, we will have the spacing for them to go to work on the perimeter. Our bigs were busy last year screening for our perimeter. We didn't have enough athleticism, but guess what... we fixed that and then some. The Plumlees will have threats on the outside that allowed their talents to shine and in case you didn't notice, offensive rebounds to open threes were already a strength last year without the ability to space the floor that we will have this year. We had that with Lance out there as a rebounder only. Typical UNC fan to forget that our bigs were a large part of our success last year and that our personel this year lends itself to running and in the halfcourt we won't have to screen to make up for athleticism (our bigs will play on the inside as bigs).

[El_Diablo]

But most impressive to me, looking back, was airowe, who predicted on 9/22/09 that we'd "get to Indy." Even more impressive, airowe's signature that day - remember, that day was 9/22/09 - was "One for the thumb in 2011." Get it? Well, airowe sure got it. [Unless..... unless somehow airowe hacked into that thread and changed the signature. Fess up, airowe, you Devil you.]

When you edit your signature, it edits the signature for all of your previous posts.

[Newton_14]

One thing you cannot deny, our front court is more capable of scoring than Dukes front court was last year. I haven't looked up the stats, but I would say that Zeller and Henson averaged more points together than the four post players Duke had last year. I think both Duke and UNC will be more balanced offensively next year.

You see Kong, the problem is this. You make the same mistake over and over again in this post, in this thread, and in most threads when talking about last year and next year. It is the same sad mistake your coach makes over and over again as well.

You base "front-court strength" 100% on offense. That is why you cannot understand that Duke's front-court this past season was superior to unc's front-court. It is not even up for debate. Duke's front-court was dominant over unc's in terms of defense, defensive rebounding, and offensive rebounding. To add insult to injury Bob Green showed you with stats that your front-court offense was not a heck of a lot better than Duke's either, and Duke's front-court were not even asked to score a lot.

In the end, unc's 2009/10 back-court/wing play was atrocious and the front-court that was lauded as "Best In The Country", actually was not very good. They were soft, injury-prone, and terrible defenders. The loss of Lawson was great, but the loss of Hansflop was equally damaging.

[gumbomoop]

When you edit your signature, it edits the signature for all of your previous posts.

Thanks for the info. I am relieved to know that airowe is mortal, prediction-wise. Still gets credit for saying we'd get to Indy.

[ThePublisher]

I don't doubt he will come a year early. You know hs is being pressured by Ol' Roy and he says he wants to better develop his game.
This will make unc the 2nd best team in the acc, and may hurt our chances or running the table on them again next year. This guy is very good.
We still have the beat all to pieces in the back court and also do in the front court, especially as far as banging around goes.

They'll still have issues though. Look at the recent tweets they have made about not being able to be themselves (drew2, henson and bullock i think). This is a team full of guys who feel they are due a certain amount of wins just b/c they are on the unc team. They are more focused on living it up on campus and partying on boats drinking underage than they are at playing ball. It is going to take someone to step up (harrison barnes) and take over as leader of the team. Barnes is probably going to do it. This team should be leaps and bounds better than last year. They still wont be amazing though. Barnes will probably be there 3 years, so over that time watch for them to be excellent. Probably the 2011-2012 season. But so will we.

[RoyalBlue08]

Am I the only one that is loving this McAdoo news because it is giving UNC fans hope? I don't want them getting too emotionally detached going into the season. It's way more fun to beat them when they have high expectations.

[gumbomoop]

If (1) McAdoo comes, and (2) Justin Knox doesn't try to go elsewhere [I have to believe he'd have chosen GaT had this McAdoo situation occurred 2 weeks ago], and (3) the UNC 10-man depth chart looks like this............

C - Zeller, Knox
PF - Henson, McAdoo
SF - Barnes, Graves
SG - Strickland, Bullock
PG - Drew, Marshall................

then (4) is McDonald once again way down the list for PT, and (5) a possible redshirt or transfer? Will McDonald accept 5-8 mpg, if that, yet again?

[Duvall]

If (1) McAdoo comes, and (2) Justin Knox doesn't try to go elsewhere [I have to believe he'd have chosen GaT had this McAdoo situation occurred 2 weeks ago], and (3) the UNC 10-man depth chart looks like this............

C - Zeller, Knox
PF - Henson, McAdoo
SF - Barnes, Graves
SG - Strickland, Bullock
PG - Drew, Marshall................

then (4) is McDonald once again way down the list for PT, and (5) a possible redshirt or transfer? Will McDonald accept 5-8 mpg, if that, yet again?

If Dexter Strickland is starting by the middle of next season, something has gone wrong for UNC. If Leslie McDonald is getting as much as 5-8 mpg by the middle of next season, something has gone horribly wrong.

[gumbomoop]

If Dexter Strickland is starting by the middle of next season, something has gone wrong for UNC. If Leslie McDonald is getting as much as 5-8 mpg by the middle of next season, something has gone horribly wrong.

I think I understand you to say:

(1) Strickland might start early in season, but Bullock is likely to start ahead of him by midseason. Actually it's possible/likely Barnes and Graves will start at wings, and both Bullock and Strickland come off bench.

(2) Your "as much as" seems roughly the same as my "if that [much]," so I'm with you there. But that still begs the question, will McDonald "accept" being 11th man, with no clear prospect even of many more mpg his junior year [PJ Hairston, etc]?

[dchen09]

(2) Your "as much as" seems roughly the same as my "if that [much]," so I'm with you there. But that still begs the question, will McDonald "accept" being 11th man, with no clear prospect even of many more mpg his junior year [PJ Hairston, etc]?

Well PJ Hairston doesn't seem to be a program changing recruit that Barnes seem to be. If Mcdonald sticks with it and Barnes does leave after his freshmen year, I don't really see Hairston playing over Mcdonald. I liken it to the situation of Dawkins being the first guard off the bench over Elliot Williams had Email stayed.

[kong123]

You see Kong, the problem is this. You make the same mistake over and over again in this post, in this thread, and in most threads when talking about last year and next year. It is the same sad mistake your coach makes over and over again as well.

You base "front-court strength" 100% on offense. That is why you cannot understand that Duke's front-court this past season was superior to unc's front-court. It is not even up for debate. Duke's front-court was dominant over unc's in terms of defense, defensive rebounding, and offensive rebounding. To add insult to injury Bob Green showed you with stats that your front-court offense was not a heck of a lot better than Duke's either, and Duke's front-court were not even asked to score a lot.

In the end, unc's 2009/10 back-court/wing play was atrocious and the front-court that was lauded as "Best In The Country", actually was not very good. They were soft, injury-prone, and terrible defenders. The loss of Lawson was great, but the loss of Hansflop was equally damaging.

I appreciate your condescending tone, I simply cannot get enough of it on this board.

First, let me state that UNC's frontcourt last year was soft. They had the ability to score- but they didn't have the intensity and fierceness to defend. Your frontcourt did. Congratulations on that! Now, lets look forward to next season cause Z and Thomas are gone. Your returning players were backups last year to players who were far less skilled and athletic than the P's.The reason, the P's didn't play defense the way K wanted them too. Also, on offense, K didn't need the interior guys to do anything more than rebound and tip the rebounds back out to the guards. Mason isn't the most intelligent defensive player. He reaches all the time and unless he wises up, he will spend a bunch of time on the bench next season in foul trouble. I know, I know, you expect huge improvements from your frontcourt this year but somehow dismiss our players ability to improve. In fact, you dismiss everything that could possibly be good at UNC. You feel that you are superior beings and that nothing can compare to Duke's way of doing things. Thats fine, knock yourself out. This is the reason people dislike Duke.

Henson will be a beast next year. You saw glimpses of it last year and you know a year of strength training and improving his skills will make him even better. You know that HB is gonna make a big impact. You know that our perimeter offense will improve as well. Or guard play will be better with Drew having more options to pass to. He averaged 6 assists on a team that had no consistent perimeter scoring threat. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that he averages 10 assists next year? Probably, but UNC will have more weapons on the perimeter that will give the interior guys more room to score.

Most importantly, I believe/hope we will be better defensively. I think it starts with the ability to place pressure on the ball. Will LD and KM stop penetration better? Will Roy change up his style of defense to stop his guards from leaving their man to stop penetration? Who knows? I am sure everyone here will say that Roy doesn't change and that he will still coach the same style of basketball he has always coached. That's fine with me. He has been pretty darn successful for a long time. I think Bullock and Barnes will be great defensively.

So go ahead and dismiss everything I say. Call me a typical UNC fan and remind me how you guys beat us in Cameron. I will take it like a man- just like I have taken it so far. I know our dominance of Duke from 05 to 09 was tough for you guys, just like last season was tough on me. What goes around comes around and I have a feeling you will be eating a bit of crow next season.

[ks1ks2]

However, if it DOES happen.... I will get immense joy in calling the Holes a bunch of copycats and deride them as much as possible for Roy following K's lead again.

This statement to describe unc obtaining a player, mcadoo, early and that unc is following duke's lead is only partially accurate. Unc obtained brad daugherty early back in the 80s. Brad was 16 when he entered unc and went on to play center for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Coach k was coaching at duke when this happened. So unc is not following duke's lead on this one.

[camion]

However, if it DOES happen.... I will get immense joy in calling the Holes a bunch of copycats and deride them as much as possible for Roy following K's lead again.

This statement to describe unc obtaining a player, mcadoo, early and that unc is following duke's lead is only partially accurate. Unc obtained brad daugherty early back in the 80s. Brad was 16 when he entered unc and went on to play center for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Coach k was coaching at duke when this happened. So unc is not following duke's lead on this one.

I'll see your Brad Daugherty and raise you a Mike Gminski.

[kong123]

but the G man wears a big hoop earring in his ear like a pirate.

[Indoor66]

but the G man wears a big hoop earring in his ear like a pirate.

That us because he sails with the Pilot.

[Bob Green]

That us because he sails with the Pilot.

Thanks for the flashback. ACC Game of the Week sponsored by Pilot Life - those were the good ol' days!

[Bob Green]

I know, I know, you expect huge improvements from your frontcourt this year but somehow dismiss our players ability to improve....Henson will be a beast next year. You saw glimpses of it last year and you know a year of strength training and improving his skills will make him even better. You know that HB is gonna make a big impact. You know that our perimeter offense will improve as well. Or [sic] guard play will be better with Drew having more options to pass to. He averaged 6 assists on a team that had no consistent perimeter scoring threat. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that he averages 10 assists next year? Probably, but UNC will have more weapons on the perimeter that will give the interior guys more room to score.

Henson will benefit from the standard freshman to sophomore learning curve. I do not believe posters on DBR are ignoring this fact, while I do believe posters on DBR make too much of Zeller's past injuries. In regard to Drew, his performance is most likely key to Carolina's success, or failure, in 2010-11 as point guard is such a critical position for any team and especially for Coach Roy Williams coached teams. I believe Drew must start and put together a season of consistent performances if Carolina is going to be successful. The average Carolina fan, and I routinely discuss basketball with some very knowledgeable basketball fans who wear that funny shade of blue with pride, has unrealistic expectations for Kendall Marshall. I do not see freshman Marshall beating out junior Drew as the starting point guard so Drew must be the man at pg next season.


I think Bullock and Barnes will be great defensively.

That's a bold statement to make about two incoming freshmen who have never played one second of college basketball. Perhaps you are right, however, we all know there is a steep learning curve between high school and college and the defensive learning curve is especially steep. I do not doubt Barnes and Bullock's ability to start and immediately contribute but I do doubt their ability to "be great defensively" as freshman.


What goes around comes around and I have a feeling you will be eating a bit of crow next season.

Maybe, maybe not. If Carolina is going to compete for the ACC and NCAA Championships next season, Coach Roy Williams is going to have to connect with his players, which is something he didn't accomplish last season when they quit on him.

[uh_no]

remind me how you guys beat us in Cameron.

Not only will I remind you about how we beat you by what 32? in cameron, but I also take great pleasure in reminding you that we beat you in the dean dome.....

Furthermore, I take greatest pleasure in reminding you that we won the national championship

Hope I jogged your memory a bit

[77devil]

I know our dominance of Duke from 05 to 09 was tough for you guys, just like last season was tough on me.

I'll concede that UNC dominated Duke from 07-09. Go ahead and delude yourself otherwise. The teams split the season series in 05-06, and Duke was the conference champion both years. Each was first in the regular season once, although the unbalanced schedule renders it much less meaningful than the tournament.

I realize that you consider the 2005 NC in your statement but how does that relate to 2006. Even with the NC, you can't make an objective argument that UNC "dominated" Duke in 05-06.

[sdotbarbee]

I appreciate your condescending tone, I simply cannot get enough of it on this board.

First, let me state that UNC's frontcourt last year was soft. They had the ability to score- but they didn't have the intensity and fierceness to defend. Your frontcourt did. Congratulations on that! Now, lets look forward to next season cause Z and Thomas are gone. Your returning players were backups last year to players who were far less skilled and athletic than the P's.The reason, the P's didn't play defense the way K wanted them too. Also, on offense, K didn't need the interior guys to do anything more than rebound and tip the rebounds back out to the guards. Mason isn't the most intelligent defensive player. He reaches all the time and unless he wises up, he will spend a bunch of time on the bench next season in foul trouble. I know, I know, you expect huge improvements from your frontcourt this year but somehow dismiss our players ability to improve. In fact, you dismiss everything that could possibly be good at UNC. You feel that you are superior beings and that nothing can compare to Duke's way of doing things. Thats fine, knock yourself out. This is the reason people dislike Duke.

Henson will be a beast next year. You saw glimpses of it last year and you know a year of strength training and improving his skills will make him even better. You know that HB is gonna make a big impact. You know that our perimeter offense will improve as well. Or guard play will be better with Drew having more options to pass to. He averaged 6 assists on a team that had no consistent perimeter scoring threat. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that he averages 10 assists next year? Probably, but UNC will have more weapons on the perimeter that will give the interior guys more room to score.

Most importantly, I believe/hope we will be better defensively. I think it starts with the ability to place pressure on the ball. Will LD and KM stop penetration better? Will Roy change up his style of defense to stop his guards from leaving their man to stop penetration? Who knows? I am sure everyone here will say that Roy doesn't change and that he will still coach the same style of basketball he has always coached. That's fine with me. He has been pretty darn successful for a long time. I think Bullock and Barnes will be great defensively.

So go ahead and dismiss everything I say. Call me a typical UNC fan and remind me how you guys beat us in Cameron. I will take it like a man- just like I have taken it so far. I know our dominance of Duke from 05 to 09 was tough for you guys, just like last season was tough on me. What goes around comes around and I have a feeling you will be eating a bit of crow next season.

First off Mason was a freshman who made freshman mistakes on defense, like reaching, he is extremely athletic and he just needs to play within himself and be the athlete he is. I also think that your front court players will improve but I don't think they will average what your front court averaged last year. The starting front court averaged 27ppg, 16rpg, and 4bpg which isn't too shabby.

As far as Barnes goes he is a beast but people are putting too much stock in Bullock and Marshall. Bullock likes to float around the 3 point line and take shots when he has the athletic ability to try and get to the rim, he seems hesitant sometimes. As far as Marshall goes and stopping penetration don't count on it, he is slow and not a very good finisher around the rim. He is a good passer but if you know he is not going to try and score you play him to pass (think Greg Paulus).

I honestly do not think you guys will be much better next year. It is very hard to count on freshmen and that is what you will be doing, and if I am wrong I will eat crow and say you were right but I like where we sit right now as opposed to unc.

[CrazieDUMB]

FWIW, I looked up ESPN's top 100 for our respective frontcourts

McAdoo - 98
Henson - 98
Zeller - 96

Ma Plumlee - 98
Ryan Kelly - 97
Mi Plumlee - 96
Hairston - 96

Note that Mason will have an extra year experience over McAdoo. I think it's reasonable to compare him to Henson's output next year. As for Zeller, he was rated the same as Miles coming in, but has a lot less experience due to injuries. I don't think this is quite as big of an issue as others do, but I'd say they match up production-wise, if we give Zeller the benefit of the doubt.

It comes down to whether you'd rather have the extra young McAdoo, or RK with a year on a championship squad and true freshman Hairston. It seems pretty obvious to me, but once again, that's just me. Remember that RK would have been much more effective last year if he didn't have four guys in the rotation above him.

Also, can we not characterize an opinion as dismissing everyone else's out of hand? We're all intelligent people talking about basketball. Don't take it personally.

[devildeac]

However, if it DOES happen.... I will get immense joy in calling the Holes a bunch of copycats and deride them as much as possible for Roy following K's lead again.

This statement to describe unc obtaining a player, mcadoo, early and that unc is following duke's lead is only partially accurate. Unc obtained brad daugherty early back in the 80s. Brad was 16 when he entered unc and went on to play center for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Coach k was coaching at duke when this happened. So unc is not following duke's lead on this one.

G man also graduated from HS a year early so he preceded Daugherty by a few years. Thank Bill Foster for that recruitment.

[devildeac]

That us because he sails with the Pilot.

One side of sign: Pilot Life
Other side of sign: ??

[devildeac]

but the G man wears a big hoop earring in his ear like a pirate.

And I'll bet he could get you to walk the plank...


ARRRRR!

[Kedsy]

FWIW, I looked up ESPN's top 100 for our respective frontcourts

McAdoo - 98
Henson - 98
Zeller - 96

Ma Plumlee - 98
Ryan Kelly - 97
Mi Plumlee - 96
Hairston - 96

Note that Mason will have an extra year experience over McAdoo. I think it's reasonable to compare him to Henson's output next year. As for Zeller, he was rated the same as Miles coming in, but has a lot less experience due to injuries. I don't think this is quite as big of an issue as others do, but I'd say they match up production-wise, if we give Zeller the benefit of the doubt.

It comes down to whether you'd rather have the extra young McAdoo, or RK with a year on a championship squad and true freshman Hairston. It seems pretty obvious to me, but once again, that's just me. Remember that RK would have been much more effective last year if he didn't have four guys in the rotation above him.

Well, I don't know. I agree Mason and Henson should be similar, although Henson was better last year, so you have to give them the small edge. I'm a Ryan Kelly fan, but McAdoo should be at least as good as Ryan and possibly better. He's a top 10 prospect with good athleticism, although as a high school junior his body is probably not all the way ready. Ryan's body is still a question mark at this point as well, although we all have high hopes that a summer in the weight room will fix that. If it does, great; if not, edge to UNC. As for Zeller vs. Miles, they may have been rated the same by ESPN but in the RSCI composite (which combines many reputable rating systems and is a more accurate gauge than ESPN), Zeller was #18 and Miles was #81. Plus, as much potential and athleticism as Miles shows, Zeller has looked like a better player during his time on the court. I'm sorry to say this is a solid edge to UNC. Finally, Knox vs. Josh Hairston -- I'd say Josh has a lot more upside, but Knox is a senior. This is either a wash or advantage UNC.

So, assuming McAdoo comes early, I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that in a vacuum the UNC frontcourt will be the better group of players. Fortunately the game isn't played in a vacuum, and our backcourt/wings will be a LOT better than theirs (Kyrie, Nolan, Seth, Andre, and Kyle vs. Drew, Marshall, Strickland, Bullock, and Barnes). With that big of a backcourt edge, the fact that we can even debate with a straight face which team will have the better frontcourt bodes well for the Blue Devils.

[gumbomoop]

I know our dominance of Duke from 05 to 09 was tough for you guys, just like last season was tough on me. What goes around comes around and I have a feeling you will be eating a bit of crow next season.

I agree with some, not all, of your post here, and may at a later moment re-enter this thread either to defend or, more likely, disagree with you. Depends on how others respond to you, and how you respond to them. Always lively, so keep posting. I am serious, or as serious as I am capable of being.

But for now, I choose to take off on your point re Duke fans' dismay at UNC's recent success. For I've thought that, historically, it was K's arrival to challenge Dean, and K's amazing success, that really, really sent tens of thousands - I do not exaggerate - of Heels over the edge.

Dean was a great, great coach. From late '60s to mid-'80s, Duke couldn't keep up. Bubas was gone, Dean emerged as a brilliantly creative X/O guy, superb recruiter, Heel Heaven, Devil Hell. The '78 youthful Duke surprise was amazing, but ended with disappointments in '79 and '80. Then, MJ, gack!. But then after calls for K's head, he turned it all around [Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson], got Duke to FF 5 years in a row, and 7 of 9 from 1986-1994. Amazing. Wooden-like, even. Continued success, though of course not as dramatically so. Still, K had challenged and now has exceeded Dean.

It's my view that Heels absolutely cannot get over K's surpassing Dean. They will never get over it. I've always thought that at least some Duke fans have a sort of twinkle in the eye when bugging Heels, whereas Heels are just wacko outraged at the impossible thought that Duke "is back." Duke has been "back" for 25 years, and Heels still cannot believe it.

So, '09-'10 simply reminded Heels, in an outrageous, absolutely unfair-world-gone-awry way, that K, apparently on verge of "irrelevance," is still a brilliant coach. The '09-'10 season was a double-disaster for Heels, and really a double-disaster-squared, for (1) Devil ?-marks all came up roses, (2) Heel ?s came up - in godawful-embarrassing ways - stinking hellishly, and (3) it showed that not only is the K-era not yet over, but it may last another 6-8 years.

Fans of both schools better not count the other one out. As for eating crow, true enough, someone's gonna have to do it. Pretty much every season. As Will Blythe says, "To Hate Like This Is to Be Happy Forever."

[superdave]

It's my view that Heels absolutely cannot get over K's surpassing Dean. They will never get over it.

Coach K passed Dean in 1992 when he won his 2nd title before Dean won his 2nd. Now, it's not even close.

It seems like McAdoo's presence would be a good step for UNC because it would help flush the memories and stinky personnel from last year out of the system. That team had very little character from top to bottom. New blood will be good for next year's team.

[UrinalCake]

Getting back on topic here, is anyone familiar with the deadlines involved in McAdoo making a final decision? If I recall correctly, in Andre's case he had to pass his summer courses before his enrollment at Duke could be made official, and that didn't happen until late July, right before the fall semester started. The school wasn't even allowed to comment on his status until after he had enrolled. Would this be the case for McAdoo as well? It seems to me that he's still kind of on the fence about whether he's going to come. And if he ultimately decides not to, I plan to head over to IC with a bag of popcorn to view the fireworks 8-)

[kong123]

For my part, it is obvious that K has accomplished more than Dean. At the same time, since K arrived in Durham, UNC has won as many titles as Duke. I will always think of Dean as the best coach ever and you will always think the same of K. Neither of us are wrong, its our own opinion. People either like Dean or they like K. Both coaches are probably more alike than they are different, they just coach different schools

What made our recent success so sweet was Duke's dominance before Roy arrived. Once Roy came back and we won 2 NC's, we felt that we had finally assumed our position back on top of the ACC. I imagine our fans were tough to deal with. Now, we are "down" again and Duke is back up. I realize you were never down in a way like we were last year, but in this rivalry, when the other team is doing better- our fans perceive it as being a down year.

[BlueThru&Thru]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)

[airowe]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)

You're assuming Coach K had a choice in the matter.

[m g]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)

the funny thing is, you definitely know about k's health problems that year. but yet, just like all other UNC fans who know it, you bring up that year and try to pretend K's health problems didn't happen ... as if somehow pretending will make him a bad coach???

[kong123]

I'm not sure if BlueThru is a heel fan or a Duke fan, so I am not speaking for him, but you are assuming that Coach K didn't have something to say about it as well.

Either way, I don't care about that season nor his win/loss record.

[kong123]

the funny thing is, you definitely know about k's health problems that year. but yet, just like all other UNC fans who know it, you bring up that year and try to pretend K's health problems didn't happen ... as if somehow pretending will make him a bad coach???

Roy had shoulder surgery:D

[gumbomoop]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)

I hadn't anticipated that the examples would come rolling in so quickly, but..... Heels absolutely cannot get over K's surpassing Dean. They will never [well, see below] get over it.

Blessed with a great state-flagship university, with a marvelous academic and bball tradition, for Heel fanatics it's just not satisfying. K has ruined Heel happiness for, I don't know, another 25-30 years. Hilarious, touching, a little troubling.

[devildeac]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)


You're assuming Coach K had a choice in the matter.

To make it even more clear, the NCAA determined that one, not K and not Duke.

[Duvall]

I'm not sure if BlueThru is a heel fan or a Duke fan, so I am not speaking for him, but you are assuming that Coach K didn't have something to say about it as well.

What does this even mean?

[roywhite]

I hadn't anticipated that the examples would come rolling in so quickly, but..... Heels absolutely cannot get over K's surpassing Dean. They will never [well, see below] get over it.

Blessed with a great state-flagship university, with a marvelous academic and bball tradition, for Heel fanatics it's just not satisfying. K has ruined Heel happiness for, I don't know, another 25-30 years. Hilarious, touching, a little troubling.

It just doesn't seem right to the Heels fans in NC particularly. I've lived here for over 20 years, and the Carolina folks regard the state somewhat as their private preserve, where light blue rules in the natural order of things.

This is a generalization, but many NC residents don't travel outside the state very much. They'll go west to the mountains or east to the coast, but are unlikely to venture much into other states, other than trips to the Myrtle Beach area. Seems to contribute to a parochial viewpoint.

They just have a hard time accepting the success of the infidel K and his charges.

[kong123]

wow Roywhite, I guess we are all a bunch of backwoods hicks? Are you comparing us to the people of the Muslim faith and Coach K as one of the people from the west that are more enlightened? That is ridiculous and a poor example. Come on man, you can do better!

[roywhite]

wow Roywhite, I guess we are all a bunch of backwoods hicks? Are you comparing us to the people of the Muslim faith and Coach K as one of the people from the west that are more enlightened? That is ridiculous and a poor example. Come on man, you can do better!

Sorry to offend you there, kong. I'm happy to be a resident of North Carolina.

Just commenting on the sense of entitlement and denial that is common among UNC fans here.

[-bdbd]

When comparing Dean and K, the '95 2-14 ACC record isn't counted on K's side of the ledger. Granted, Dean never had that bad of a team, but if he had, I am sure he would have taken ownership of it.:)

Hard to say, since Deano never had to deal with 2x hip replacement and serious back issues which landed him in a hospital for a significant portion of a BB season. We'll never know.

The heels fans always choose to ignore that when K left that team it had something like a 10-3 record - hardly "that bad" BTT. In fact, I think you demonstrate K's impact/importance. WITH K that team wins 66%, but once he leaves it wins like <20%. That team, which actually played not all that bad mostly, and certainnly continued to fight, unlike UNC this season (nor did it have 8 AA's...), simply lost an amazing number of close games at the wire. And that is exactly when K is known to work much of his magic - end game situations. But thank you BTT for pointing out K's tremendous value/impact.

Re the point about "both teams have won 4 NC's since K's arrival," it is a bit disingenuous as it leaves out a number of salient facts in comparing program success (unless you care to argue the NC's is the only metric available to measure program success over that timeframe). In fact, K-led teams haven't missed the NCAA in 25+ years, been to 10+ Final Fours, won many, many more ACC championships than NC@CH, averaged significantly more wins season-in and season-out. Also, when comparing, it's probably not fair to include a NC that Dean was gifted by Georgetown in K's first couple of years, having taken over a program nowhere near today's talent levels - gotta give the guy at least a few years to ramp it back up before starting any fair comparison. But the point is pretty much ANY independent, fair evaluator comparing the two schools over the last 30 years will tell you Duke's performance, IN TOTAL, has been much greater than UNC's. For a NC@CH fanbase well used, to use Kong's words, "to being on top," that sort of demotion is plain outrageous heresy. :D

We should be happy that we have two incredibly successful programs in such close proximity - it makes the rivalry so precious.

[kong123]

Sorry to offend you there, kong. I'm happy to be a resident of North Carolina.

Just commenting on the sense of entitlement and denial that is common among UNC fans here.

if you could turn your Duke bias off and read this forum, you would think the same of this board. We are all fanatical fans, nothing wrong with that. The issue with UNC fans and the State of NC might be that majority of the kids that go to Duke are not from the NC. So when an NC resident has a bias towards an NC school and against a private school in the heart of NC- where most of the students are from out of state, maybe you can understand a bit. Heck, you just got finished saying that we are all hicks! Do you not see that you are just as guilty? You may think we are hicks- we think you are snobbish pricks from the north? Is if fair either way? No, its not fair to generalize- generalizations only get you in trouble.

[kong123]

Hard to say, since Deano never had to deal with 2x hip replacement and serious back issues which landed him in a hospital for a significant portion of a BB season. We'll never know.

The heels fans always choose to ignore that when K left that team it had something like a 10-3 record - hardly "that bad" BTT. In fact, I think you demonstrate K's impact/importance. WITH K that team wins 66%, but once he leaves it wins like <20%. That team, which actually played not all that bad mostly, and certainnly continued to fight, unlike UNC this season (nor did it have 8 AA's...), simply lost an amazing number of close games at the wire. And that is exactly when K is known to work much of his magic - end game situations. But thank you BTT for pointing out K's tremendous value/impact.

Re the point about "both teams have won 4 NC's since K's arrival," it is a bit disingenuous as it leaves out a number of salient facts in comparing program success (unless you care to argue the NC's is the only metric available to measure program success over that timeframe). In fact, K-led teams haven't missed the NCAA in 25+ years, been to 10+ Final Fours, won many, many more ACC championships than NC@CH, averaged significantly more wins season-in and season-out. Also, when comparing, it's probably not fair to include a NC that Dean was gifted by Georgetown in K's first couple of years, having taken over a program nowhere near today's talent levels - gotta give the guy at least a few years to ramp it back up before starting any fair comparison. But the point is pretty much ANY independent, fair evaluator comparing the two schools over the last 30 years will tell you Duke's performance, IN TOTAL, has been much greater than UNC's. For a NC@CH fanbase well used, to use Kong's words, "to being on top," that sort of demotion is plain outrageous heresy. :D

We should be happy that we have two incredibly successful programs in such close proximity - it makes the rivalry so precious.

another issue that hasn't been mentioned would be the 3 coaching changes since Dean left. So when you talk about how consistent Duke has been over the years, don't forget that some of those years UNC was going through a shift in leadership that didn't go very well. Duke will have to go through that one day. Then, we will see if your program can return to prominence the way that UNC has.

[-jk]

I think this particular discussion has gone far enough off topic, and in a not very pleasant way.

-jk