How does the NCAA Championships in Basketball and Lacrosse Help Us....

[NYC Duke Fan]

In that award, ( forgot the name ), that Stanford always wins year in and year out .

[4decadedukie]

The NACDA's Learfield Sports Directors' Cup , I believe. Duke always fairs well n this competition; however, yesterday's Men's Lax Title will certain result in a higher standing this year, since points are awarded based on finishing order in NCAA Championships.

[CrazieDUMB]

I've always been curious about how Stanford (and I believe Texas is in the discussion as well) collects so many NCAA championships. Do they have better funding? If it's about offering non-revenue athletes better education, we should be right up there with them. I know it's probably a complicated answer, but how are they so good in so many sports?

[tallguy]

I've always been curious about how Stanford (and I believe Texas is in the discussion as well) collects so many NCAA championships. Do they have better funding? If it's about offering non-revenue athletes better education, we should be right up there with them. I know it's probably a complicated answer, but how are they so good in so many sports?

Stanford's athletic scholarships are almost fully endowed, so they are able to offer a full complement of scholarships in every non revenue sport without worrying about funding. Grant Hill, among others, is trying to start a similar program at Duke. Stanford also benefits from being in California, home of a ton of talent in all sports. Texas's athletic department is the wealthiest AD in the nation by far, and also is THE school in a talent rich state.

[JBDuke]

As of April 29th, Duke was in 11th place overall, 4th in the ACC behind UNC (7th), UVA (8th), and Florida State (10th). Note that Duke and Stanford were the only private schools in the top 25.

April 29th standings here: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/D1april29releasestands.pdf

An update is due out on Thursday (June 3rd), which will take into consideration the Lacrosse championships, among others. Duke should move up, and with less than 50 points between them and the Heels, they might move into first place in the ACC.

[fan345678]

Stanford's athletic scholarships are almost fully endowed, so they are able to offer a full complement of scholarships in every non revenue sport without worrying about funding. Grant Hill, among others, is trying to start a similar program at Duke. Stanford also benefits from being in California, home of a ton of talent in all sports. Texas's athletic department is the wealthiest AD in the nation by far, and also is THE school in a talent rich state.

I would imagine that the full endowment of athletic scholarships frees up a lot of funds and fundraising for facilities, training, coaching, etc. I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have a major metropolitan area-- and thus a large alumni base-- within close proximity to campus, where they can easily attend, say, a women's water polo match or a men's volleyball match.

[sagegrouse]

I would imagine that the full endowment of athletic scholarships frees up a lot of funds and fundraising for facilities, training, coaching, etc. I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have a major metropolitan area-- and thus a large alumni base-- within close proximity to campus, where they can easily attend, say, a women's water polo match or a men's volleyball match.

Duke made a big push to endow athletic scholarships starting about 20 years ago IIRC. There is even a large display in the Cameron lobby with names of endowment sponsors. As the attached article (http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&KEY=&ATCLID=152116) from the Iron Dukes web site indicates, very few of the endowed scholarships are fully funded. I believe the initial gifts then were about $250 thousand, and without a huge growth in principal would fund only a fraction of the $51 thousand cost per year of a Duke athletics scholarship.

WRT Stanford, it, even more than Berkeley, was the impetus for Silicon Valley -- Palo Alto, Sand Hill Road, Google, etc. Both the university affiliation and the location of these companies on the San Francisco peninsula has had a huge effect on athletics fund-raising for the Cardinal.

sagegrouse

[blueprofessor]

Duke made a big push to endow athletic scholarships starting about 20 years ago IIRC. There is even a large display in the Cameron lobby with names of endowment sponsors. As the attached article (http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&KEY=&ATCLID=152116) from the Iron Dukes web site indicates, very few of the endowed scholarships are fully funded. I believe the initial gifts then were about $250 thousand, and without a huge growth in principal would fund only a fraction of the $51 thousand cost per year of a Duke athletics scholarship.

WRT Stanford, it, even more than Berkeley, was the impetus for Silicon Valley -- Palo Alto, Sand Hill Road, Google, etc. Both the university affiliation and the location of these companies on the San Francisco peninsula has had a huge effect on athletics fund-raising for the Cardinal.

sagegrouse

Two names: Bill Hewlett and David Packard. Between their lifetime, estate, and foundations gifts, Stanford has received over 800 millions. A lot has gone to athletics.:)
Stanford athletics program is the platinum standard--- helped greatly by loyal engineering/business school billionaires and a huge population.
Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[NYC Duke Fan]

I could be mistaken here, but I remember reading somewhere that it was one individual who donated most of the money to fully fund all of Stanford's athletic scholarships and it was not either Mr. Hewlett or Mr. Packard. However, I do not recall who it was.

[ricks68]

Texas even has producing oil wells deeded to the school's endowment. It overtook Harvard a number of years ago as the most heavily endowed school. I do not know its ranking since the economic downturn. You might think, however, that Texas may have opened the gap even more.

The big difference in where the money goes, when comparing Texas to other schools, is that a disproportionate amount goes to athletics (primarily football, the national sport of Texas) rather than substantially emphasizing academics, when compared to other schools.

Another aspect is the tremendous size of the school itself. I think that Texas has won something like 31 NCAA championships (could be much more, but I think that's what I read before the Alabama disaster. Maybe someone could correct that, if needed). If you take the number of NCAA championships we have and multiply them by the ratio of Texas' student population to our student population, I think that we would crush them.:p

Of course, that's a ridiculous way to compare things. I think you need to add in the vast monetary advantage, state size, and state school vs private school advantage. Oh, that would make it even more in our favor. ("Never mind", as Roseanne Rosannadanna used to say.);)

ricks

[sagegrouse]

Texas even has producing oil wells deeded to the school's endowment. It overtook Harvard a number of years ago as the most heavily endowed school. I do not know its ranking since the economic downturn. You might think, however, that Texas may have opened the gap even more.

The big difference in where the money goes, when comparing Texas to other schools, is that a disproportionate amount goes to athletics (primarily football, the national sport of Texas) rather than substantially emphasizing academics, when compared to other schools.

ricks

Here is some useful data, Ricks. Referenced here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_St ates_by_endowment) is a table of university endowments. The state-wide U. of Texas System weighs in at around $12 billion behind Harvard at $25+B, Yale at $15B and about even with Princeton and Stanford.

But UT gets only about one-half the dough, as this passage in Wikipedia indicates:


"The university has an endowment of $7.2 billion, out of the $16.11 billion (according to 2008 estimates) available to the University of Texas. This figure reflects the fact that the school has the largest endowment of any public university in the nation.


"30% of the university's endowment comes from Permanent University Fund (PUF), with nearly $15 billion in assets as of 2007.[70][71] Proceeds from lands appropriated in 1839 and 1876, as well as oil monies, comprise the majority of PUF."

Anyway, the PUF owns zillions of acres of land, a portion dating from the founding days of the Texas Republic, and some of which turned out to have oil.

sagegrouse
'Duke has an endowment of $4.4 billion, ranking 13th or so. This excludes the $2.5 billion Duke Endowment, based in Charlotte, which was the historic financial underpinning of Duke U. Duke receives sizable funding from the Endowment so, maybe about one-third. Counting this, Duke moves up a few notches'

[pratt '04]

I could be mistaken here, but I remember reading somewhere that it was one individual who donated most of the money to fully fund all of Stanford's athletic scholarships and it was not either Mr. Hewlett or Mr. Packard. However, I do not recall who it was.

John Arrillaga (http://articles.sfgate.com/2001-02-25/sports/17584722_1_stanford-sears-directors-cup-athletic-board)

[bill brill]

duke will almost surely finish in the top ten for the third time in school history, which is difficult because teams get to count men's and women's indoor track as well as outdoor track, which used to count as just one (the best of the two). since it's the same team and coaches, I view it as double dipping. a team gets 100 points for winning a title. all points are from post-season. unc won the first title, stanford has dominated ever since with its all-endowed programs (31 sports). team counts its best 10 in men and 10 in women. not all duke sports are funded (no scholarships) and this was kevin white's dream when he came to duke, that has been delayed by recession. he'd like every sport fully funded, which would take 45 more grants (at $51K plus). duke does great in both basketball's, obviouisly, as well as golf (women have five titles), tennis (women won last year) and lacrosse (men won this year). duke has won men's soccer in past. almost all funded sports do well and the reality is that athletes like becca ward (fencing olympian) and curtis beach (men's freshman decathalon who is hurt and can't participate) prove (to me) that school can recruit in areas where it has grants. duke finished fifth in 2005, only year ahead of unc. is close to having second-best year ever and again will be second among all private schools. virginia, which now fully funds all sports, is a rapidly rising popwer. it will finish ahead of unc and just won rowing while being no. 1 in four other sports, including baseball, where it is still competing. in fact, uva is now good in everything but football and basketball, which is all fans ar many schools care about. duke is obviously trying to build football and baseball, where I believe they have the perfect coaches.

[roywhite]

Here is some useful data, Ricks. Referenced here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_St ates_by_endowment) is a table of university endowments. The state-wide U. of Texas System weighs in at around $12 billion behind Harvard at $25+B, Yale at $15B and about even with Princeton and Stanford.

But UT gets only about one-half the dough, as this passage in Wikipedia indicates:


"The university has an endowment of $7.2 billion, out of the $16.11 billion (according to 2008 estimates) available to the University of Texas. This figure reflects the fact that the school has the largest endowment of any public university in the nation.


"30% of the university's endowment comes from Permanent University Fund (PUF), with nearly $15 billion in assets as of 2007.[70][71] Proceeds from lands appropriated in 1839 and 1876, as well as oil monies, comprise the majority of PUF."

Anyway, the PUF owns zillions of acres of land, a portion dating from the founding days of the Texas Republic, and some of which turned out to have oil.

sagegrouse
'Duke has an endowment of $4.4 billion, ranking 13th or so. This excludes the $2.5 billion Duke Endowment, based in Charlotte, which was the historic financial underpinning of Duke U. Duke receives sizable funding from the Endowment so, maybe about one-third. Counting this, Duke moves up a few notches'

Maybe Duke can catch up with the Milton Hershey School in Hershey, PA at some point.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/09/milton_hershey.html


Milton and Catherine Hershey, unable to have children of their own, established the Hershey Industrial School, now the Milton Hershey School, 100 years ago this Nov. 15....Milton Hershey bequeathed his entire fortune, some $60 million, to the school.
That original endowment has grown over the years to an estimated $6.3 billion -- roughly seven times greater than the endowment held by Penn State University.


Chocolate pays better than tobacco?

[jdj4duke]

Chocolate pays better than tobacco?

Clearly not a serious question, as I always found (especially on East Campus back in the day) gifts of chocolate to produce more results than presents of cigarettes.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

The new standings are out and we are now #4.

http://www.nacda.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/dcupd1june3

As mentioned above, this likely won't hold up as it looks like we might get a few points from men's golf and that's it while other schools will score in baseball, track, etc. However, this is still a very impressive showing, and we should easily stay in the top 10.

[SCMatt33]

The new standings are out and we are now #4.

http://www.nacda.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/dcupd1june3

As mentioned above, this likely won't hold up as it looks like we might get a few points from men's golf and that's it while other schools will score in baseball, track, etc. However, this is still a very impressive showing, and we should easily stay in the top 10.

While I agree completely about the overall landscape, I have to give some love to the track team. Duke did qualify six people (3 men and 3 women) for the NCAA championships. If any of them finish in the top 8 of their respective events, they will earn a spot in the meet standings for Duke and a minimum of 5 Directors cup points. There are separate men's and women's standings, so one man and one women placing 8th would likely earn 10 directors cup points. It is far from guaranteed that anyone will do this, but there is a significant chance that someone could earn points. It likely won't affect our place in the final standings by much, but It's good to acknowledge every team's contribution.

[roywhite]

While I agree completely about the overall landscape, I have to give some love to the track team. Duke did qualify six people (3 men and 3 women) for the NCAA championships. If any of them finish in the top 8 of their respective events, they will earn a spot in the meet standings for Duke and a minimum of 5 Directors cup points. There are separate men's and women's standings, so one man and one women placing 8th would likely earn 10 directors cup points. It is far from guaranteed that anyone will do this, but there is a significant chance that someone could earn points. It likely won't affect our place in the final standings by much, but It's good to acknowledge every team's contribution.

Thanks for the reminder, Matt. Track program was pretty good in the early 1970's before the scholarship landscape changed. Both men's and women's programs seem to be coming on now.

Question if you know---what is the status of Curtis Beach? Did he get hurt at some point in the ACC Championships? Back sometime soon? I'm wondering if he might actually be a better middle distance (800m in particular) guy than decathlete?

[Rich]

The new standings are out and we are now #4.

http://www.nacda.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/dcupd1june3

As mentioned above, this likely won't hold up as it looks like we might get a few points from men's golf and that's it while other schools will score in baseball, track, etc. However, this is still a very impressive showing, and we should easily stay in the top 10.

Is there another Duke? Why does the article repeatedly refer to us as "Duke (N.C.)"? It doesn't refer to Stanford as "Stanford (CA)".

[jimsumner]

Why does the article repeatedly refer to us as "Duke (N.C.)"?

Maybe it refers to National Champions. :)

[Olympic Fan]

Okay,

I have a question.

Duke is currently in fourth place, essentially 13 points behind No. 3 Virginia and 12 points ahead of North Carolina.

If I'm reading things right, we should add points in men's golf and could add points in track and field.

On the other hand, both UNC and Virginia are among the 64 teams in the baseball tournament. Neither should get out of the regionals, but they'll still add points for making the field. Not sure how they project in track and field, but UNC usually gets something there. Are they in the golf mix?

I'm just wondering if anybody can make an educated guess how Duke will end up vis a vis UVa and UNC in the final standings. Any reasonable chance to move up ... or at the very least hold off the Heels?

[SCMatt33]

Okay,

I have a question.

Duke is currently in fourth place, essentially 13 points behind No. 3 Virginia and 12 points ahead of North Carolina.

If I'm reading things right, we should add points in men's golf and could add points in track and field.

On the other hand, both UNC and Virginia are among the 64 teams in the baseball tournament. Neither should get out of the regionals, but they'll still add points for making the field. Not sure how they project in track and field, but UNC usually gets something there. Are they in the golf mix?

I'm just wondering if anybody can make an educated guess how Duke will end up vis a vis UVa and UNC in the final standings. Any reasonable chance to move up ... or at the very least hold off the Heels?

We will finish behind UNC and UVA. UNC finished second in their softball regional which puts them in the 17-32 category and will give them 50 points. They are also guaranteed 25 points for just making the field in baseball. Duke will likely earn just under 50 points for golf, and likely no more than 10 or so for track (its hard to predict, but its not likely that Duke will do more than have 1 or 2 people sneak a couple of points in). We won't even be close to Virginia, who won a national title in rowing that hasn't been counted yet. That's 100 points right there. They are also in the golf tournament so should match us there. We won't stay where we are now, but this seems to be a low scoring year at the top, much like 2005 was. We won't do as well as that year, but have a good chance to stay in the top ten for the first time since 2006 when we were 8th.

[devildeac]

Why does the article repeatedly refer to us as "Duke (N.C.)"?

Maybe it refers to National Champions. :)

That can't be it because it would have to be N.C.x2 or N.C. squared.;>))

[pfrduke]

On the other hand, both UNC and Virginia are among the 64 teams in the baseball tournament. Neither should get out of the regionals, but they'll still add points for making the field.

Not to needlessly quibble, but it's hard to say that UVA should not get out of the regionals. First of all, they're the host school for the regional, and all host schools are pretty much favored. More importantly, they're a consensus top-3 team nationally, top 2 in all the polls except ESPN, and 3rd in the baseball RPI. They're favored not only to get out of the regional round, but to make it all the way to Omaha. None of that means that they certainly will, but there aren't many teams more likely to advance than Virginia is.

[jimsumner]

"On the other hand, both UNC and Virginia are among the 64 teams in the baseball tournament. Neither should get out of the regionals, but they'll still add points for making the field"

I'm sorry but Virginia may have the best college baseball team in the country. It would be a major upset if they don't make it out of their regional.

And don't expect many points for Duke in men's golf. It's not going well.

[SCMatt33]

And don't expect many points for Duke in men's golf. It's not going well.

They will get significant points no matter what their finish is. The director's cup awards points to everyone who made regionals and uses a 64-team breakdown. Since Duke can do no worse than 30th, they are guaranteed at least 44 points. I just checked and they are tied for 27th, and I'm pretty sure this is it as far as team standings for anyone who doesn't make match play (outside the top 8). This would give them 46.5 points. This would bring the team total to 982.75 points. I'd like to see us get over the 1000 mark, but given how few athletes we have that qualified for track and fewer still have a real chance to earn points (top 8), I'd say that it's possible, but not likely for us to get there. It's interesting to note that no school has placed in the top ten with less than 1000 points since 2006, and there is little relationship between actual points and ranking. It all depends on how the teams at the top do. For example, Duke scored about 850 points in 2006 and placed 8th, and in 2007, we scored about 990 and finished 11th. We seem to be taking advantage of a low scoring year this year (unless a bunch of teams near the top ten explode in the last few sports).

[Acymetric]

They will get significant points no matter what their finish is. The director's cup awards points to everyone who made regionals and uses a 64-team breakdown. Since Duke can do no worse than 30th, they are guaranteed at least 44 points. I just checked and they are tied for 27th, and I'm pretty sure this is it as far as team standings for anyone who doesn't make match play (outside the top 8). This would give them 46.5 points. This would bring the team total to 982.75 points. I'd like to see us get over the 1000 mark, but given how few athletes we have that qualified for track and fewer still have a real chance to earn points (top 8), I'd say that it's possible, but not likely for us to get there. It's interesting to note that no school has placed in the top ten with less than 1000 points since 2006, and there is little relationship between actual points and ranking. It all depends on how the teams at the top do. For example, Duke scored about 850 points in 2006 and placed 8th, and in 2007, we scored about 990 and finished 11th. We seem to be taking advantage of a low scoring year this year (unless a bunch of teams near the top ten explode in the last few sports).

You mentioned track, but what about field? One of our freshman football players was setting school records earlier this season (I want to say for discus or possibly shotput). Do we look to get any points from him, or is he still not good enough to score directors cup points?

[tecumseh]

Stanford had a pretty amazing week in tennis
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2010/06/03/bohm-what-a-week-for-stanford-tennis/

I have to say I was pulling for the Stanford guy over the Dukie. Not to sound jingioistic but mens tennis in the NCAA is over run with foreign ringers including one at Duke. Nice for American tennis see some home grown talent win.

[SCMatt33]

You mentioned track, but what about field? One of our freshman football players was setting school records earlier this season (I want to say for discus or possibly shotput). Do we look to get any points from him, or is he still not good enough to score directors cup points?

I was just using track as short for track & field. The six athletes I mentioned included Austin Gamble. You were also correct that he throws discus. The directors cup points are based on the final team standings. To be included in those, you have to score at least 1 team point, which you get for an 8th place finish in any event. So if Austin finishes in the top 8, Duke will earn a minimum of 5 directors cup points, which are awarded to any team finishing below 64th.

EDIT: I just looked it up, and Austin is seeded 13th out of 24 qualifiers in the discus based on his performance in the regional round.

[SCMatt33]

Since it seems that there is some curiosity out there, I'm looking up how all of the Duke athletes are seeded, and how close they are to climbing into or falling out of the top 8 based on regional performances. Here are the links for the complete seed lists for both the men (http://web1.ncaa.org/track/eventFiles/d1moutR.txt) and the women (http://web1.ncaa.org/track/eventFiles/d1woutR.txt). I listed the Duke athletes' seeds and times/distances, as well as those of the first seed, the last (24th) seed, and the bubble seed (8th) for team scoring.

Men:
Austin Gamble, Discus - Seeded 13th with a throw of 55.13m.
- 24th: 53.13m
- 8th: 56.96m
- 1st: 58.70m

Cory Nanni, 1500m - Seeded 11th with a time of 3:43.52
- 24th: 3:51.91
- 8th: 3:43.08
- 1st: 3:37.52

Ryan McDermott, 3000m Steeplechase - Seeded 6th with a time of 8:44.36
- 24th: 8:54.26
- 8th: 8:46.07
- 1st: 8:34.87

Women:
Kate Van Buskirk, 1500m - Seeded 16th with a time of 4:19.23
-24th: 4:20.89
-8th: 4:18.74
-1st: 4:15.98

Juliet Bottoroff, 5000m - Seeded 12th with a time of 16:29.87
-24th: 16:42.27
-8th: 16:25.55
-1st: 16:14.52

Carly Seymour, 10000m - Seedes 19th with a time of 34:58.37
-24th: 35:25.97
-8th: 34:33.32
-1st: 34:23.64

If these seeds were to hold (which they won't, as they are based on just the regional round, and there is a lot of room for variance) Duke would fail to score in the women's meet, but score 3 points from Ryan McDermott in the men's meet. As a guideline, 3 points earned a 3-way tie for 56th at last year's championship. Ironically this would award Duke 17 directors cup points and give us a final total of 999.75 points. I really hope we can get just one place better, as I would find in infinitely frustrating to come up a quarter point short of 1000 on the year.

[bill brill]

most of the posters have got their facts correct. duke will get 46.5 points for golf. I had hoped for enough more so that this would be the second highest point total ever, which is currently 988. even with no points in t&f, quite likely, this will be the third best year. uva, which now fully funds every team and has surpassed unc as the strongest athletic program in the acc, will finish second. nobody has touched stanford since unc won the first year. they have 31 sports, all fully funded and endowed. in this competition, they get to pick their best 20 (10 men, 10 women). it would be almost impossible to ever catch them. but uva, which won seven acc titles (duke won 2 in basketball and 2 national titles; unc won just women's soccer but also won two ncaas, soccer and field hockey), finished 11th in golf, won rowing and should do well in baseball. kevin white wants all duke sports funded as soon as economically possible. I think if that ever happens, duke would be a top ten perennial and easily the no.2 private school virtually every year. curtis beach did get hurt -- leg, I think a hammy -- which cost points in ncaas but not enuf to make a difference. 2005 was the only year duke has finished ahead of unc, but uva has now surged past both of them.

[bill brill]

I just asked julie work, who handles the director's cup publications for NACDA, why duke was identified as duke, n.c. there is no rhyme or reason, especially since schools like auburn, wake forest, syracuse and harvard do not have their state listed. for whatever reason, princeton, n.j. does. she said she did not know the reason but that she would take it off. that means the final standings, in which duke will be passed by unc, florida and perhaps texas a&m, will finish seventh or eighth, but without the Duke, N.C.