Cheaters

[Olympic Fan]

Today, reading the front page update on the Eric Bledsoe case, I was struck by the phrase:

"This of course would be a singular accomplishment for coach John Calipari, who would have a nearly insurmountable lead when it comes to truly screwing different schools."

It made me think about the competition -- who are the guys he is competing against for all-time status as a widespread cheat (just to be clear, we're not talking about the WORST cheaters, but the most widespread)?

Here's my current top 5, counting down from No. 5 (and giving Calipari the benefit of the doubt on the Kentucky charges at the moment):

5 (tie) Hugh Durham -- FSU/Georgia -- Durham was such a notorious cheater at FSU that when he played in the 1972 Final Four, Coach Jerry Tarkanien complained that it was a black mark on college coaches that he was there. But he doesn't rank higher because he never got caught at FSU ... he did get caught at Georgia, earning probation and having his 1985 NCAA appearance vacated.

5. (tie) Kelvin Sampson, Oklahoma/Indiana -- Earned sanctions (but no postseason ban) at Oklahoma, then wrecked an Indiana program to the extent that they are still trying to recover (which is what they deserve for hiring a cheater, then turning him loose).

4. Larry Brown, UCLA/Kansas -- Managed to get UCLA's 1980 Final Four appearance vacated, then got Kansas put on probation for violations committed after winning the 1988 national title. Left two schools on probation. Special credit for screwing two of the five greatest programs of all time. Too bad he didn't get the UNC job when Guthridge retired (Dean wanted to hire him), then Brown could have made it three out of five.

3. John Calipari, UMass/Memphis -- managed to get Final Fours at both schools vacated. Note -- if the Bledsoe case blows up on him, he will obviously move up.

2. Jim Harrick, UCLA/Rhode island/Georgia --He was fired at UCLA for lying to his boss about expenses -- the reason that was important is that he was violating NCAA rules by paying for dinner for excess players at dinner during a recruiting visit. Harrick claims he has a letter from the NCAA exonerating him for any recruiting violations, but his actions clearly set back the UCLA program. At Rhode Island, he was charged with sexual harrassment and during the pre-trial investigation of that case, several NCAA violations came to light ... to shut that investigation down, the school made a generous settlement in the suit. Again, no penalty but he clearly damaged that program in a terrible way. At Georgia, he earned probation and national scorn for his son's involvement in a phony coaching class.

1. Jerry Tarkanien Long Beach State/UNLV/Fresno State -- What can you say -- the trifecta. Tark the Shark earned four NCAA probations at three schools (two at UNLV, although he got the first of those overturned by a sympathetic judge who was a UNLV season ticket holder). Even so, he left all three schools where he worked on probation. That's an accomplishment that's going to be hard to top, even if Calipari does get nailed at Kentucky.

This is off the top of my head. I must be missing two or three guys at least who screwed up at two or more schools. Help me out! We ought to be able to come up with a top 10 list.

PS Special mention to Bear Bryant, who accomplished the remarkable feat of getting Texas A&M BASKETBALL on probation while he was the FOOTBALL coach there. Now that takes talent!

[roywhite]

Good topic and good list so far.

I nominate Jim Calhoun and the UConn gang. From laptop theft to assault charges to recruiting violations, Calhoun has attracted kids who didn't belong in college, and skirted the rules.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Cheating can occur in a variety of ways. So far, this discussion seems to be focusing primarily on more recent occurrences. Let's go back a few more decades to the sort of cheating which was the center of a major scandal. Think back to college basketball in the fifties..... point shaving, pay for play.

[jimsumner]

Dana Kirk and Tates Locke have got to figure in here somewhere, despite the one-school limitation in the OP. Pure chutzpah has to be recognized.

[Heelkiller1]

Seeing all these scandals as of late makes me proud to be a fan of a consistently winnig program that does it "by the book" . It is truely a testament to a great coach and a respectable program. GO DUKE .

[Newton_14]

Can't remember his name but the coach at Baylor has to make the top ten list for trying to cover up a murder conspiracy.


Also, I assume this list in only for basketball coaches?

[tbyers11]

Can't remember his name but the coach at Baylor has to make the top ten list for trying to cover up a murder conspiracy.


Also, I assume this list in only for basketball coaches?

Dave Bliss. Who is now the head coach at a prestigious Texas prep school (http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2010/05/11/dave-bliss-hiring-stirs-emotions-for-school-friend-of-patrick/) less than a 100 miles from Waco.

Who the heck made that hire?

[Newton_14]

Dave Bliss. Who is now the head coach at a prestigious Texas prep school (http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/2010/05/11/dave-bliss-hiring-stirs-emotions-for-school-friend-of-patrick/) less than a 100 miles from Waco.

Who the heck made that hire?

Thanks for the assist and link. I am with you, how does anyone hire this man to coach youngsters after what he did? Unbelievable.

It appears from this quote in the article that Bliss would be ranked Number 1 on our list if the author of the piece was voting...


BRYAN, Texas -- Dave Bliss, arguably the most disgraced college basketball coach to ever walk a sideline, has never been far away from basketball since his forced resignation at Baylor in 2003.

[Olympic Fan]

Guys,

You're trying to hijack the thread.

If you want a list of the WORST cheaters, then fine -- guys like Kirk and Bliss have to be on it. Indeed, Bliss -- for trying to cover up a murder (and telling his players to smear the name of the murder victim) -- is clearly No. 1.

Nothing John Calipari or Jerry Tarkanien ever did was close to that bad.

But the point of the thread is to come up with guys whose failings screwed multiple schools. I would submit that Harrick and Tarkanien are the only three-time losers I can think of. Calipari in on the verge of joining them (but he's not there yet) The other guys -- Larry Brown and Sampson did major damage to at least two schools. I probably shouldn't have included Durham ... although he cheated like heck at FSU, he never got the school in trouble, so Georgia is the only school he screwed.

I guess I could mention NC State's Everett Case. He got NC State on probation twice and also the Frankfurt (Ind.) Hot Dogs on probation twice, so that's a rare college/high school double play.

And in Calipari's case, you could include his racist remarks with the New York Nets that blew that pro franchise up ... so you could credit him for a pro/college double play.

[miramar]

I don't think anyone should criticize Jim Harrick unless he has passed his son's official Basketball 101 test. This article confirms that everyone who took the class received an A, and includes a link to the final (and only) exam:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1750279

BTW, since we are on the subject of cheating, I will give you a couple of answers: 19A, 20D.

And here is an interesting list of cheaters, which dovetails nicely with the Calipari thread:

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/feature/college-basketball-history-2009

[Tommac]

How about SMU and the death penalty they were dealt? I can't recall the specifics, but I don't think SMU has ever fully recovered in football since then. Does anyone recall why their football program was killed?

[Dunkin]

Here is a link that mentions violations that occurred at SMU in their basketball program while Dave Bliss was coach there. Articles that I have read in the past substantiate what this article says about the investigation being stopped at SMU by the NCAA because SMU was already being punished after being dealt the death penalty in football. Bliss was allowed to quietly resign at SMU and go on to coach at New Mexico.

http://www.kbtx.com/sports/headlines/93137494.html

So Dave might qualify as a 2 time cheater except that the violations at SMU were not pursued by the NCAA.

SMU received the death penalty due to violations that involved their recruitment of Eric Dickerson, one of the members of their duo called The Pony Express. The school had already been put on probation two other times under two other coaches before the Dickerson violations and the NCAA imposed the Death Penalty in 1987 when the 3rd round of violations occurred under Ron Meyer.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/barron/7015313.html

I have paid attention to this because I went to SMU undergrad. They now have Football Coach June Jones who took them to a bowl game in 2009. He seems to be turning the program around. No other coach has been able to do as well since the death penalty was imposed in 1987.

Unfortunately the SMU basketball coach is Matt Doherty, but that's another story.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/2010/03/if_smu_has_grown_tired_of_matt.php

[Johnboy]

Here is a link that mentions violations that occurred at SMU in their basketball program while Dave Bliss was coach there. Articles that I have read in the past substantiate what this article says about the investigation being stopped at SMU by the NCAA because SMU was already being punished after being dealt the death penalty in football. Bliss was allowed to quietly resign at SMU and go on to coach at New Mexico.

http://www.kbtx.com/sports/headlines/93137494.html

So Dave might qualify as a 2 time cheater except that the violations at SMU were not pursued by the NCAA.

SMU received the death penalty due to violations that involved their recruitment of Eric Dickerson, one of the members of their duo called The Pony Express. The school had already been put on probation two other times under two other coaches before the Dickerson violations and the NCAA imposed the Death Penalty in 1987 when the 3rd round of violations occurred under Ron Meyer.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/barron/7015313.html

I have paid attention to this because I went to SMU undergrad. They now have Football Coach June Jones who took them to a bowl game in 2009. He seems to be turning the program around. No other coach has been able to do as well since the death penalty was imposed in 1987.

Unfortunately the SMU basketball coach is Matt Doherty, but that's another story.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/2010/03/if_smu_has_grown_tired_of_matt.php

The man who became President of SMU and cleaned up the place after their death penalty was none other than Duke's Chancellor (and one of the best professors I ever had) - the late, great Kenneth Pye (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/12/obituaries/a-kenneth-pye-62-smu-president-who-restored-sports.html), who left us at the too-young age of 62.

[Indoor66]

The man who became President of SMU and cleaned up the place after their death penalty was none other than Duke's Chancellor (and one of the best professors I ever had) - the late, great Kenneth Pye (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/12/obituaries/a-kenneth-pye-62-smu-president-who-restored-sports.html), who left us at the too-young age of 62.

Ken Pye was also Dean of the Duke Law School in the 60's - succeeding Hodge O'Neal (O'Neal on Close Corporations) who succeeded the great E. R. Latty as Dean.

[SharkD]

Tom Penders -- high-tailed it out of Austin, leaving NCAA violations in his wake.

He brought his loose style of ethics to GWU, thanks to his best friend, GWU AD Jack Kvancz, which resulted in:

Penders attempting to cover up the criminal acts of an as-yet-ineligible transfer, Attila Cosby, who was charged with nine misdemeanors for on-campus sexual assault, on-campus weapons violations and theft;

Pender's son, an Assistant Coach, racking up $1,400 in personal phone calls on a University phone card, and then providing it to student athletes, for another $500-600 in personal call charges, earning GW an NCAA violation;

Standout sophomore SirValiant Brown failing to pass any of his classes, thus losing all eligibility.


I'm just waiting for Houston to announce an NCAA investigation, earning Penders the trifecta.

[james]

Even more interesting to note are the schools that are repeaters: UCLA and Georgia have hired two of your top five most notorious cheaters. What does that say about those programs?


Today, reading the front page update on the Eric Bledsoe case, I was struck by the phrase:

"This of course would be a singular accomplishment for coach John Calipari, who would have a nearly insurmountable lead when it comes to truly screwing different schools."

It made me think about the competition -- who are the guys he is competing against for all-time status as a widespread cheat (just to be clear, we're not talking about the WORST cheaters, but the most widespread)?

Here's my current top 5, counting down from No. 5 (and giving Calipari the benefit of the doubt on the Kentucky charges at the moment):

5 (tie) Hugh Durham -- FSU/Georgia -- Durham was such a notorious cheater at FSU that when he played in the 1972 Final Four, Coach Jerry Tarkanien complained that it was a black mark on college coaches that he was there. But he doesn't rank higher because he never got caught at FSU ... he did get caught at Georgia, earning probation and having his 1985 NCAA appearance vacated.

5. (tie) Kelvin Sampson, Oklahoma/Indiana -- Earned sanctions (but no postseason ban) at Oklahoma, then wrecked an Indiana program to the extent that they are still trying to recover (which is what they deserve for hiring a cheater, then turning him loose).

4. Larry Brown, UCLA/Kansas -- Managed to get UCLA's 1980 Final Four appearance vacated, then got Kansas put on probation for violations committed after winning the 1988 national title. Left two schools on probation. Special credit for screwing two of the five greatest programs of all time. Too bad he didn't get the UNC job when Guthridge retired (Dean wanted to hire him), then Brown could have made it three out of five.

3. John Calipari, UMass/Memphis -- managed to get Final Fours at both schools vacated. Note -- if the Bledsoe case blows up on him, he will obviously move up.

2. Jim Harrick, UCLA/Rhode island/Georgia --He was fired at UCLA for lying to his boss about expenses -- the reason that was important is that he was violating NCAA rules by paying for dinner for excess players at dinner during a recruiting visit. Harrick claims he has a letter from the NCAA exonerating him for any recruiting violations, but his actions clearly set back the UCLA program. At Rhode Island, he was charged with sexual harrassment and during the pre-trial investigation of that case, several NCAA violations came to light ... to shut that investigation down, the school made a generous settlement in the suit. Again, no penalty but he clearly damaged that program in a terrible way. At Georgia, he earned probation and national scorn for his son's involvement in a phony coaching class.

1. Jerry Tarkanien Long Beach State/UNLV/Fresno State -- What can you say -- the trifecta. Tark the Shark earned four NCAA probations at three schools (two at UNLV, although he got the first of those overturned by a sympathetic judge who was a UNLV season ticket holder). Even so, he left all three schools where he worked on probation. That's an accomplishment that's going to be hard to top, even if Calipari does get nailed at Kentucky.

This is off the top of my head. I must be missing two or three guys at least who screwed up at two or more schools. Help me out! We ought to be able to come up with a top 10 list.

PS Special mention to Bear Bryant, who accomplished the remarkable feat of getting Texas A&M BASKETBALL on probation while he was the FOOTBALL coach there. Now that takes talent!

[sagegrouse]

SMU received the death penalty due to violations that involved their recruitment of Eric Dickerson, one of the members of their duo called The Pony Express. The school had already been put on probation two other times under two other coaches before the Dickerson violations and the NCAA imposed the Death Penalty in 1987 when the 3rd round of violations occurred under Ron Meyer.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/barron/7015313.html

I have paid attention to this because I went to SMU undergrad. They now have Football Coach June Jones who took them to a bowl game in 2009. He seems to be turning the program around. No other coach has been able to do as well since the death penalty was imposed in 1987.

Unfortunately the SMU basketball coach is Matt Doherty, but that's another story.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/2010/03/if_smu_has_grown_tired_of_matt.php

The fact that the 'Death Penalty' essentially ruined SMU's football program for over 20 years means that it won't be applied again unless the NCAA decides to put the offending school out of competition forever in that sport.

sagegrouse
'"Death is dead," in A Generous Man, Reynolds Price (1966) on the fate of a snake named Death that escaped from a carnival'

[blueprofessor]

Ken Pye was also Dean of the Duke Law School in the 60's - succeeding Hodge O'Neal (O'Neal on Close Corporations) who succeeded the great E. R. Latty as Dean.

Ken was dean 1968-70 (left to become Duke Chancellor) and 1973-76 (when Dean Joseph Sneed left to become Deputy Attorney General). Sneed (who died in 2009,IIRC) had a daughter,former HP head Carly Fiorina.

The Duke Law faculty of the 1950s through the mid 1970s had numerous leading scholars and was among the top 3 or 4 in the country.

Jack Latty (dean 1987-66) created the concept of "piercing the corporate veil" in a law review article (Columbia, I believe) around 1939.

Pye was the perfect man to clean up SMU--he was a no-nonsense Marine who was as honest as he was honorable.

Needless to say, if the late Ken Pye were president of Kentucky, Cal would never have been interviewed.

Too many college presidents are easy riders who will not rock the boat---a real barrier to maintaining integrity in college athletics.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[DukieBoy]

5. (tie) Kelvin Sampson, Oklahoma/Indiana -- Earned sanctions (but no postseason ban) at Oklahoma, then wrecked an Indiana program to the extent that they are still trying to recover (which is what they deserve for hiring a cheater, then turning him loose).

Not sure the punishment was fair here in terms of what we've went through. I never liked the hiring of Sampson, but IU still isn't out of the hole of Sampson and it's been 2 years, going on 3.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Good topic and good list so far.

I nominate Jim Calhoun and the UConn gang. From laptop theft to assault charges to recruiting violations, Calhoun has attracted kids who didn't belong in college, and skirted the rules.

You're right. Kids who make mistakes at the age of 19 and 20 should never be allowed to go to college. College is for those who are perfect...

(FYI - sarcasm light bulb should be going off right now)

[BD80]

You're right. Kids who make mistakes at the age of 19 and 20 should never be allowed to go to college. College is for those who are perfect...

(FYI - sarcasm light bulb should be going off right now)

Nobody said they shouldn't go to college, they should just be disciplined like other college students. I am certain any other student at uCon caught stealing laptops from other students would have retained their scholarships and would have been allowed to continue classes.

That light bulb should still be burning bright.

If I recall, the benchwarmer took the brunt of the blame, so that the starter could play after missing a few nonconference games.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

"You're right. Kids who make mistakes at the age of 19 and 20 should never be allowed to go to college. College is for those who are perfect...

(FYI - sarcasm light bulb should be going off right now) "

Seriously, you really were not outraged at two people stealing laptops from their fellow students? Not really, really outraged? That a couple of kids (who happen to be on scholarship to play basketball) had so little regard for their fellow students as to take their laptop which undoubtedly had all kinds of their academic work on it that they may or may not have backed up? If it were my alma mater, I would want them expelled instantaneously with no possibility of return. That is not a mistake. That is a clear indication of a lack of a moral compass. If another school wants to admit them, that is the other school's prerogative. If that act is not a "line in the sand" act, I really don't know what is.

[4decadedukie]

The man who became President of SMU and cleaned up the place after their death penalty was none other than Duke's Chancellor (and one of the best professors I ever had) - the late, great Kenneth Pye (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/12/obituaries/a-kenneth-pye-62-smu-president-who-restored-sports.html), who left us at the too-young age of 62.

Ken Pye was a wonderful academic leader: brilliant, fair and very approachable. He was an absolute luminary among Dukie many outstanding deans and senor administrators, many of who shared leadership with the equally superb Terry Sanford!

[DukieInKansas]

Ken Pye was a wonderful academic leader: brilliant, fair and very approachable. He was an absolute luminary among Dukie many outstanding deans and senor administrators, many of who shared leadership with the equally superb Terry Sanford!

I believe his main claim to fame is being the father of the wearer of green shorts and the source of one of my favorite Cameron cheers!

What was his son's name? Does anyone know?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I believe his main claim to fame is being the father of the wearer of green shorts and the source of one of my favorite Cameron cheers!

What was his son's name? Does anyone know?
Henry? Class of '92

[blueprofessor]

I believe his main claim to fame is being the father of the wearer of green shorts and the source of one of my favorite Cameron cheers!

What was his son's name? Does anyone know?

Henry,IIRC. His mother stayed in bed about 6 1/2 months so she could carry him to term.

Best--Blueprofessor:)

[Indoor66]

Henry,IIRC. His mother stayed in bed about 6 1/2 months so she could carry him to term.

Best--Blueprofessor:)

His son is named Henry.

[DukieInKansas]

Henry? Class of '92

Thank you. I never realized he ended up attending Duke. I just remember his half time game while I was there many moons ago and he was a youngster. (elementary school, I think)

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Thank you. I never realized he ended up attending Duke. I just remember his half time game while I was there many moons ago and he was a youngster. (elementary school, I think)

He graduated from Duke in 1992 and went on to earn an MBA and JD from SMU in 1997.

[K>Roy]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ol' Roy yet.

[-jk]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Ol' Roy yet.

For what?

-jk

[gumbomoop]

For what?

-jk

Presumably for something related to the title of the thread. Have to wait and see.

[MartyClark]

The Bliss family moved to Colorado after his disgraceful conduct at Baylor. They had some Colorado connection through marriage, I believe Dave Bliss' daughter married Jeff Fosnes who was SEC player of the year at Vanderbilt in the 1970's. Dave Bliss was initially the assistant coach for his son's team but, once that was publicized, had to resign because of intense public outcry.

It's a very interesting issue, bigger than basketball. How and when does one obtain forgiveness for a truly despicable act?

[gumbomoop]

It's a very interesting issue, bigger than basketball. How and when does one obtain forgiveness for a truly despicable act?

Much bigger, and yes, interesting.

I'm no ethicist, nor unusually ethical, but as a working rule, I'd say:

1. The person who committed a truly despicable act must be contrite, convincingly so.

2. Must then, after several public expressions of contrition, go away for awhile, years probably, disappear from public spotlight.

3. If person's family suffers, person must not use that as excuse for seeking to re-enter prematurely the profession to which the despicable act is linked.

4. After some years - I don't know, 5, 10, not just 1 or 2 - person may seek to work back up to mid-level of profession, but should start in low-profile position, and not assume that s/he would ever, ever regain full acceptance.

5. For if the person is truly and forever contrite, s/he would understand that full forgiveness is neither likely nor, perhaps, justified.

[K>Roy]

For what?

-jk

For a lot of things. Maybe not a cheater per se, but crooked? You bet.

Remember DeShawn Stevenson? Was going to play ball for Roy at Kansas, but things didn't work out. His SAT magically went from a 450 the first time he took it to an 1150 the second time. The Educational Testing Service thought this was fishy, as was the fact that Stevenson, a Californian, took the test in North Carolina. The ETS had him take it again, and Roy started crying about Stevenson had worked hard to improve his academics, etc. Stevenson made a 650 his next go-round; the NCAA minimum is, IIRC, 800, so he went pro instead of playing in Lawrence.

He accepted Lester Earl to Kansas after Early had taken money from LSU boosters and put the Tigers on probation. He also accepted as a transfer a kid who flunked out of Texas, and the Michael Copeland thing was sketchy as all hell. So much for the academic integrity he always preaches.

Also, the way he's handled the McAdoo and Wear stories remains very, VERY shady and the Kansas ticket scandal reeks of Ol' crooked Roy.

[blueduke59]

Couldn't agree more. Let's not forget Roy making a recruiting pitch to David Padgett on national television after leaving Lawrence for Chapel Hill. "It's unfair that poor David is stuck out there". It was just fine if David would have been "stuck out there" if you were still in Lawrence, eh Roy? The man is fraud

[Big Pappa]

The Bliss family moved to Colorado after his disgraceful conduct at Baylor. They had some Colorado connection through marriage, I believe Dave Bliss' daughter married Jeff Fosnes who was SEC player of the year at Vanderbilt in the 1970's. Dave Bliss was initially the assistant coach for his son's team but, once that was publicized, had to resign because of intense public outcry.

It's a very interesting issue, bigger than basketball. How and when does one obtain forgiveness for a truly despicable act?

Fun fact: Dave Bliss is in my parent's Sunday School class in my home church in the Austin area.

[DevilDJ]

He also accepted as a transfer a kid who flunked out of Texas,

Luke Axtell. Here's Roy saying that he can't recall who he spoke with but whoever it was,well,they said the gifts were ok.....

Williams reported that he checked with someone on the compliance staff and was told that it would be permissible because it would be similar to them receiving money for playing in barnstorming tours. Based on Williams' approval, Anderson, and then Morgan and Edwards, provided gifts to several departing men's basketball student-athletes.

Williams reported that, "I can't tell you that I checked with Richard Konzem. I can't tell you that I checked with Janelle Martin or Bob Frederick. But I know that I had some conversation just to make sure that it was alright. And again, I emphasize to the person (providing the gift) that you know, that I don't want this to be any humongous check for playing basketball...it is a graduation gift and it is something that doesn't, uh, you know, that, uh, that's not advertised. It's not talked about. It's not promised."

Neither former compliance director Janelle Martin nor the former associate director of athletics for compliance Richard Konzem recalled ever having a conversation with Williams about the permissibility of a student-athlete who has exhausted his eligibility receiving gifts from a supporter of the program. According to Konzem, he believes that if asked that question now, he does not believe it is permissible, so his instinct tells him that he would have said no to the question if asked several years ago. Martin reported that she knows that you cannot provide benefits to student-athletes after the completion of their eligibility so if asked she would not say anything different. Both Martin and Konzem reported that at the very least, if asked about this issue, they would have called the NCAA membership services office or the Conference compliance person to learn if that arrangement would be permissible.

Roy Lied (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/genrel/071505aan.html)

[PADukeMom]

Bobby Bowden/FSU Football & the 90% Dillards discounts.

[K>Roy]

It appears that McAdoo will be pursuing his GED rather than graduating if he chooses to enroll early at carolina. Strange, because chapel hill REQUIRES a high school diploma from an accredited institution and states that it does NOT accept GED's. Crooked Roy strikes again.

BTW, funny how this thread died right after I brought up Ol' Roy. Don't tell me people at the DBR of all places are afraid to dig up dirt on a chapel hill guy...

[MChambers]

5 (tie) Hugh Durham -- FSU/Georgia -- Durham was such a notorious cheater at FSU that when he played in the 1972 Final Four, Coach Jerry Tarkanien complained that it was a black mark on college coaches that he was there. But he doesn't rank higher because he never got caught at FSU ... he did get caught at Georgia, earning probation and having his 1985 NCAA appearance vacated.
I grew up in Florida in the 60s and 70s, so remember Durham well. Before he hit it big at FSU, he had some not-so-great teams. One of my father's friends played on an early Durham team. Once, they were playing one of the better teams on their schedule, and were leading at halftime. Durham told his team, "That's what happens when a good team doesn't play hard", or words to that effect. FSU promptly got creamed at the beginning of the second half.

[blueduke59]

It appears that McAdoo will be pursuing his GED rather than graduating if he chooses to enroll early at carolina. Strange, because chapel hill REQUIRES a high school diploma from an accredited institution and states that it does NOT accept GED's. Crooked Roy strikes again.

BTW, funny how this thread died right after I brought up Ol' Roy. Don't tell me people at the DBR of all places are afraid to dig up dirt on a chapel hill guy...

Nothing like a kid with a 3.9 GPA leaving high school early to pursue a GED. If unc accepts him it will be hard to defend:

http://www.stateuniversity.com/universities/NC/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Chapel_Hill.html


Academic Excellence

There’s no set formula for success, but a demonstrated record of academic excellence is a must to score an admissions offer from carolina. The university requires—not suggests— that students have pursued college-preparatory work in high school, and the Admissions Office recommends that students take as many Advanced Placement or International Baccalaureate courses as possible. Carolina requires a high school diploma from an accredited institution and will not accept a GED or other high school equivalency degree for freshman admission.

[K>Roy]

Nothing like a kid with a 3.9 GPA leaving high school early to pursue a GED. If unc accepts him it will be hard to defend:

http://www.stateuniversity.com/universities/NC/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Chapel_Hill.html

It should be hard to defend. In reality, chapel hill won't have to defend it AT ALL because the media (and apparently DBR) won't touch it. If Cal tried to engineer such a blatant circumnavigation of school policy people would be going nuts. If K did it? Fuhgeddaboudit.

Roy? *Crickets*

All that glitters* is not gold.

EDIT: *Or, rather glittered.

[77devil]

It appears that McAdoo will be pursuing his GED rather than graduating if he chooses to enroll early at carolina.

Can you supply substantiation from a reputable source?

[K>Roy]

Can you supply substantiation from a reputable source?

I can indeed. (http://www.nbebasketball.com/w3/2010-0607/james-mcadoo-update-2010-enrollment-more-likely/)

[greybeard]

Cheating can occur in a variety of ways. So far, this discussion seems to be focusing primarily on more recent occurrences. Let's go back a few more decades to the sort of cheating which was the center of a major scandal. Think back to college basketball in the fifties..... point shaving, pay for play.

Hey, those guys didn't dump any games. In fact, CCNY was undefeated, and the coach had nothing to do with the shaving. So, where's the beef--the bookies got hurt by the guys who bought the line?

[greybeard]

Including Larry Brown among a "most wanted" list is a bit too far.

He took a moribund UCLA team to within a game of the national title and boom goes the dynamite. Suddenly, the NCAA looks into Sam Gilbert and finds, to its shock, after years and years of his intimate connection to whe Wizard of Westwood's players, that "there is gambling going on here."

You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows and there were clearly some people who had had enough of Sam and UCLA if UCLA was going to be a player on the National scene.

Really, there was something to stick around for.

Brown beat one of the most powerful sports programs in America for a National Championship when his team was being lead by the third best player on the Court that evening. He coached the pants off Oklahoma and stole a championship from them.

The violations the ensuing year were Brown reports he had been told by an NCAA official before he left no big deal. What Brown himself had done was to buy a plane ticket for a player whom he had signed and courted apparently over several years. What was the plane ticket for? To go to his grandmother's funeral. The investigators discovered two more payments, one for $350 which was needed by the player to have his aunt's phone turned back on, and $180 for another plan ticket.

For this there was talk of imposing the death penalty on Kansas.

Pardon me if I believe that the penalty imposed on Kansas had less to do with those violations, then with Kansas's National Championship which Brown had bought by hiring Danny Manning's father as an assistant coach. That hiring, which left many on tobacco road furious, was perfectly legal and not without precedent but when it lead to a national championship, boom goes the dynamite.

You do the math.

Brown got more from his players, including Danny Manning, then any coach in the business and his successes were punished disproportionately after the fact, in the first instance for the sins of the Wizard, and in the second for doing less than LSU did to get another Wizard to play for it.

I think that Brown's name needs to be stricken from the list of ignominity. :rolleyes:

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Hey, those guys didn't dump any games. In fact, CCNY was undefeated, and the coach had nothing to do with the shaving. So, where's the beef--the bookies got hurt by the guys who bought the line?

I'm not talking about CCNY! There were some other places where serious questions were raised, some right along Tobacco Road back about the time Frank McGuire was in charge of recruiting in one location and the Old Gray Fox was in charge in another location.

[K>Roy]

It's truly alarming that anyone associated with chapel hill gets a free pass around here. LB not a cheat? You're serious?

[jimsumner]

Going undefeated and shaving points are not mutually inconsistent.

[blueduke59]

Including Larry Brown among a "most wanted" list is a bit too far.

He took a moribund UCLA team to within a game of the national title and boom goes the dynamite. Suddenly, the NCAA looks into Sam Gilbert and finds, to its shock, after years and years of his intimate connection to whe Wizard of Westwood's players, that "there is gambling going on here."

You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows and there were clearly some people who had had enough of Sam and UCLA if UCLA was going to be a player on the National scene.

Really, there was something to stick around for.

Brown beat one of the most powerful sports programs in America for a National Championship when his team was being lead by the third best player on the Court that evening. He coached the pants off Oklahoma and stole a championship from them.

The violations the ensuing year were Brown reports he had been told by an NCAA official before he left no big deal. What Brown himself had done was to buy a plane ticket for a player whom he had signed and courted apparently over several years. What was the plane ticket for? To go to his grandmother's funeral. The investigators discovered two more payments, one for $350 which was needed by the player to have his aunt's phone turned back on, and $180 for another plan ticket.

For this there was talk of imposing the death penalty on Kansas.

Pardon me if I believe that the penalty imposed on Kansas had less to do with those violations, then with Kansas's National Championship which Brown had bought by hiring Danny Manning's father as an assistant coach. That hiring, which left many on tobacco road furious, was perfectly legal and not without precedent but when it lead to a national championship, boom goes the dynamite.

You do the math.

Brown got more from his players, including Danny Manning, then any coach in the business and his successes were punished disproportionately after the fact, in the first instance for the sins of the Wizard, and in the second for doing less than LSU did to get another Wizard to play for it.

I think that Brown's name needs to be stricken from the list of ignominity. :rolleyes:

LB coached 2 college programs and left both on probation and he's not a cheater????? You kidding me????

[77devil]

LB coached 2 college programs and left both on probation and he's not a cheater????? You kidding me????

Hey, what did you expect. It's Greybeard and he's out of his element since it's not lacrosse. ;)

In that case, like Kornheiser, he's totally conflicted.

[Indoor66]

Hey, what did you expect. It's Greybeard and he's out of his element since it's not lacrosse. ;)

Actually, IRRC, Greybeard grew up with Larry Brown and considers him a part of his Long Island homies.

[Shammrog]

You're right. Kids who make mistakes at the age of 19 and 20 should never be allowed to go to college. College is for those who are perfect...

(FYI - sarcasm light bulb should be going off right now)

Ehhhh... I don't know that many of these were typical 19 and 20 year-old "mistakes." UConn has pretty steadily evolved from kids for whom basketball provides an opportunity to attend college into kids for whom basketball provides an opportunity to stay out of prison.

[Shammrog]

LB coached 2 college programs and left both on probation and he's not a cheater????? You kidding me????

Brown was/is a phenomenal coach. But, sorry, a cheater. It is a fair bet that (ala Al Capone) his list of questionable practices went far beyond what he was actually nailed for ;)

Another phenomenal coach - Jerry Tarkanian. Love him or hate him, that guy (like Brown) is flat-out a basketball genius.

[greybeard]

I'm not talking about CCNY! There were some other places where serious questions were raised, some right along Tobacco Road back about the time Frank McGuire was in charge of recruiting in one location and the Old Gray Fox was in charge in another location.

Edie Gard, whom Larry Brown credits for helping him more than anyone understand the nuances of the passing game of the 50s, was a delightful man who played for CCNY before the scandals and was the go-between for the mobster who had the dough and the players who received it. Gard went to jail.

At least in the early 60s, he played every weekend on a court on the South Shore of LI with several others stars from the 50s. Everyone who was anyone came to that court and that would have to have included your boy Arthur, as in Heyman.

There were, I believe, rumors about some of McQuire's guys having had contacts with the guy Gard had been a go-between for, and it might well be that the likes of Rosenbluth and Moe played basketball with Gard and perhaps hung with him, which might have been the source of the rumors.

One of the guys who regularly played on Gard's side was Alan Seidman, St. John's first team All American, '56. Until his death, friends of Seiden's said it was his friendship with Gard, whom he apparently loved like a brother, that kept Seiden out of the pros. Many close to Seiden apparently had urged him to dump his friendship with Gard when he graduated St. John's, but Seiden refused.

I can tell you first hand that Gard made the game a joy, in contrast to Seiden but that is another story, and one can understand how his brilliance at the game, and he was brilliant, attracked the best of the best to want to hang with him.

I wasn't around that court in the early 60s but a friend of mine whose old man had practically adopted Brown as a third son was, and he is the one who told me that Brown thought of Gard as a genuis. No way that Joe Glass would have let Brown get messed up in any nonsense, none. I doubt that Gard was involved in any shaddiness either through that era. We just didn't present in that fashion when I encountered that same game in the late 60s-early 70s.

Postscript, when SI did a cover story on Wally Szczerbiach as a senor in high school, he was quoted as saying that he learned most of what he knew about the passing game from going to CW Post with his old man, quite a player in his own right by the way. He mentioned Al Seiden as among the guys he learned from. The only thing anybody could have learned from Seiden was how to gun. It must have been Edie.

[greybeard]

Actually, IRRC, Greybeard grew up with Larry Brown and considers him a part of his Long Island homies.

Never met the man. Only saw him play once in person, Olympic tryouts, which were held my Senior year at St. John's. I went with a bunch of teammates to see the college All Stars, not the Goodyear team that Brown played for. Heard about Brown from the guy who sat next to me on the bench my senior year, Brent Glass, who went to the game with his entire family because they had all but adopted Brown several years earlier, as I learned that day.

I learned much more about the Larry the summer after I graduated when Larry was on the Olympic team and my best friend was recruited to be a counselor at Camp Keeyuma and play on the counselor team coached by Herb Brown. I visited a couple of times that summer or the next and got an earful about how great Larry was. Herb too, who word was was a better Xs and Os guy then Larry was, but did not have Larry's genuis as a teacher.

Didn't learn about Larry's perspectives about Gard until the year the Sixers made their run. I was sitting in my office listening to Kornheiser on the radio when he introduces Brent Glass as a guest. Brent then was the head of historic preservation for Pa and was on to chat about a project the State had completed honoring Wilt's 100 point game. I hopped in a cab and got to the ESPN Zone to see my old teammate. In talking about old times and our ball playing experiences I mentioned how during the summers after I had graduated high school I had found my way to this outrageous game in a neighboring town and described Gard's play. Brent then told me that "Larry" used to take him to that court to play and related how Larry had said that that guy, whom Brent said was named Edie Gard, had showed him more about how street ball could be played then anybody he had ever met.

So, it ain't like Larry and me are exactly tied at the hip. In fact, I got no connection to the guy, except that Brent's old man, who is a great, great guy who I haven't seen in 46 years, represents him and two guys I know, one, T, much better than the other, love him.

Finally, I repeat, Larry don't belong on your list and you guys would admit THAT it if he wasn't a UNC guy and you weren't from Duke. ;)

[blueduke59]

The man coached at 2 schools and left both on probation. I guess the world just had it in for him.:rolleyes:

[greybeard]

The man coached at 2 schools and left both on probation. I guess the world just had it in for him.:rolleyes:

Nope, the NCAA had enough of Sam and, after the Wizard retired, would not allow a UCLA team to ascend to prominence for sins that went "unnoticed" when the Wizard of Westwood reigned. One has to wonder, as I pointed out on another thread, exactly how the Wizard (which was a name given Wooden by two LA sports reporters for just this reason) skated by all those years. Indeed, somewhat mystically, Wooden got off with a simple, "Maybe I had tunnel vision" admission well after the fact, even while the relationship between all his players and Sam went uninvestigated during his many Championship years. And, Sam remained a fixture around the program even after Wooden retired, even when several former Wooden stars took their turns at the helm with no success.

It was only after Larry's stellar coaching performance threatened to bring UCLA back to prominence that the NCAA discovered Sam was doing favors for UCLA ball players. Jezz, some guys have all the luck I guess.

As for the Kansas thing, if you think that the plane ticket for the kid to go to his grandmother's funeral, which Brown admitted and said he would do again even after learning it was against NCAA rules, makes Brown a cheat, you are a Dukie and I'm not.

I have to think that the probation sanction imposed after Brown left was due more to Brown's hiring of Manning's pops to win a recruiting war and then outcoach the world in beating a superior Oklahoma team in the national championship game--it is not good to make Oklahoma and UNC mad--then that plane ticket and the two similar acts of largesse an assistant did for the same player. In fact, they really were chump change, even by the standards of that era, and, when you think about it, are not a whole lot different than allowing Eliot Williams to transfer without consequence to care for his sick mother.

Brown obviously had his fill of the NCAA and its "even-handed" rule applications. He has not returned to college ball since although there have been many stops along his coaches road since.

To equate him to the likes of Calipari is flat wrong in my opinion. I dissent from your insistence that he belongs on a list of college balls worst cheats and believe that I have the way stronger position.

[jimsumner]

"The man coached at 2 schools and left both on probation. I guess the world just had it in for him. "

Well, not exactly. He didn't leave Davidson on probation. Of course, that may be because he anticipated that the NCAA would have it in for him and left Davidson for the pros after a month.

Who does that? Seriously.

[Big Pappa]

The latest Cheaters: USC.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5272615

NCAA sanctions on USC includes a 2-year bowl ban and loss of 30 football scholarships. They also have to vacate all their 2005 wins in football including the BCS National Championship win against Oklahoma.

[greybeard]

"The man coached at 2 schools and left both on probation. I guess the world just had it in for him. "

Well, not exactly. He didn't leave Davidson on probation. Of course, that may be because he anticipated that the NCAA would have it in for him and left Davidson for the pros after a month.

Who does that? Seriously.

Larry Brown ain't perfect, he changes his mind, likes to roam, is not about building dynasties and having buildings named after him. He is a basketball coach who helps everyone he coaches improve dramatically and better understand and appreciate the sport that they love. That's what he does and he is among the best in the world at it.

So, he left Davidson at the alter, after deciding better of living the life of a college coach after having gotten burned twice. Seems to me that colleges don't exactly treat their coaches in a way that deserves a whole lot of loyalty to begin with. And, from everything you guys say about him, and everything he's accomplished, it seems difficult to argue that he didn't make a pretty damn good choice.

Fun argument, but you guys are wearing me out. Put him on your most wanted list. See if I care. :o

[K>Roy]

Larry Brown ain't perfect, he changes his mind, likes to roam, is not about building dynasties and having buildings named after him. He is a basketball coach who helps everyone he coaches improve dramatically and better understand and appreciate the sport that they love. That's what he does and he is among the best in the world at it.

So, he left Davidson at the alter, after deciding better of living the life of a college coach after having gotten burned twice. Seems to me that colleges don't exactly treat their coaches in a way that deserves a whole lot of loyalty to begin with. And, from everything you guys say about him, and everything he's accomplished, it seems difficult to argue that he didn't make a pretty damn good choice.

Fun argument, but you guys are wearing me out. Put him on your most wanted list. See if I care. :o

It's not we who have to put him there, greybeard; he did that on his own.

[greybeard]

It's not we who have to put him there, greybeard; he did that on his own.

I surrender! Well done, that's not easy.

[jimsumner]

"So, he left Davidson at the alter, after deciding better of living the life of a college coach after having gotten burned twice"

Actually, he left Davidson long before "getting burned" at UCLA or Kansas. He simply decided that he liked another offer better.

[greybeard]

"So, he left Davidson at the alter, after deciding better of living the life of a college coach after having gotten burned twice"

Actually, he left Davidson long before "getting burned" at UCLA or Kansas. He simply decided that he liked another offer better.

So what, he is still one of the best ball coaches ever, whom you seem hell bent on demonizing as a college coach which he don't do anymore and hasn't for many years.

However, when he did, he took the two teams he coached to the pinnicle of the game, which ain't, contrary to what you say, all bad, at least in my book.

T says his boy has a vunderlust to a fault and does not apologize for it. It's how he rolls, and, when you are as good as he is at what you do, you get to roll as you want. Live with it. He went to UNC, played (I think actually started) on a gold metal Olympic team even though he was 5' 9" tall, if that, coached a college team to an NCAA title that had alluded it for years, coached a pro team to the only NBA title it ever won, left every player on every team he coached a much more effective and smarter player than before he arrived, and you didn't.

[77devil]

So what, he is still one of the best ball coaches ever, whom you seem hell bent on demonizing as a college coach which he don't do anymore and hasn't for many years.

However, when he did, he took the two teams he coached to the pinnicle of the game, which ain't, contrary to what you say, all bad, at least in my book.

T says his boy has a vunderlust to a fault and does not apologize for it. It's how he rolls, and, when you are as good as he is at what you do, you get to roll as you want. Live with it. He went to UNC, played (I think actually started) on a gold metal Olympic team even though he was 5' 9" tall, if that, coached a college team to an NCAA title that had alluded it for years, coached a pro team to the only NBA title it ever won, left every player on every team he coached a much more effective and smarter player than before he arrived, and you didn't.

Talk about rationalization. Good(not great-to be great you win without cheating) coach, lousy human being. Take your pick. We can only wish UNC had hired him instead of Roy. He was passed over twice. Maybe El Deano new something,

[greybeard]

Actaully, we'll have to exclude the Knicks from that list, and maybe the Olympic team. Zeke kinda undermined him on the Knicks, you think, and Dumars didn't exactly press the three Detroit stars whom Brown had just coached to a championship to show up for their country. Excluding that, you played for Larry, you grew as a player. Period.

"Just when I thought I was finally out, they sucked me back in." Michael, Godfather III, mimicked in the second episode of the Sopranos by Sil. Enough, no mas. You win jimsummer, you win, whatever facts you have about the terrible things that Brown has done, don't matter to me, or the world. Really, they don't.

[jimsumner]

Greybeard,

Your response to my post bears absolutely no relationship to my post.

I simply pointed out that your timeline was wrong. Brown didn't leave Davidson because he had been burned at other college stops. Davidson was his first college stop. He took over in 1972, professing great love for Davidson and everything that it stood for. Then, a month later, he got an offer to coach the Carolina Cougars and couldn't get to the out door fast enough.

Yes, that bothers me. That's how I roll. ;)

I confess I do find your assertion that Brown can do whatever he wants just because he's good at it to be both disturbing and disingenuous. Apparently, so does the NCAA.

And would it kill you to at least try to correctly spell words and use standard syntax? Your last sentence is darn near unreadable.

[greybeard]

Talk about rationalization. Good(not great-to be great you win without cheating) coach, lousy human being. Take your pick. We can only wish UNC had hired him instead of Roy. He was passed over twice. Maybe El Deano new something,

Who said that Brown was better in college ball than the pros. He certainly didn't think so. If you are right and El Deano agreed, so apparently did Brown, who has stayed away nothwithstanding having made multiple moves since.

Wow, now its a "lousy human being." Really?

I never met the guy, and don't make such judgments about people I don't know, whose biggest crime by you was allowing the continuation of a practice the Wizard began, and giving a signed recruit a couple of plane tickets, one to bury his grandma. Pretty harsh there, dude, but, hey, it's a free country.

Me, I'm going with my man Brent whose own reputation is impecible and who thinks the world of Larry, as does his old man who has the respect of anyone who he ever dealt with, including Jerry West and Rick Barry, who named his son after Joe's.

"Lousy human being." You da man, dude, you da man!

[greybeard]

Greybeard,

Your response to my post bears absolutely no relationship to my post.

I simply pointed out that your timeline was wrong. Brown didn't leave Davidson because he had been burned at other college stops. Davidson was his first college stop. He took over in 1972, professing great love for Davidson and everything that it stood for. Then, a month later, he got an offer to coach the Carolina Cougars and couldn't get to the out door fast enough.

Yes, that bothers me. That's how I roll. ;)

I confess I do find your assertion that Brown can do whatever he wants just because he's good at it to be both disturbing and disingenuous. Apparently, so does the NCAA.

And would it kill you to at least try to correctly spell words and use standard syntax? Your last sentence is darn near unreadable.

I got your point but thought it inane. So, Brown chose to take a job with the pros instead of one he decided he shouldn't have taken in college. Big deal. How that relates to the theme of this thread--the biggest cheaters in the college game--misses me, but, hey, you are on a roll and want to stay on it.

The NCAA did not sanction Brown. I'd repeat that but what's the point. Brown chose not to come back to the college game over the years. You seem to think that that is a good choice; so do I. Recruiting kids is a sleezy business and the exploitation of college stars ain't too shinny either, at least in my view. Many people like myself think that they must be paid. They soon will be, in my opinion.

You think Brown was among the biggest cheats in the college game. I look at his college career and see an UNTAINTED national championship.

Sometimes writing poorly has its purposes. It reflects my feelings with respect to what I take as rude and intemperant comments directed at me. Glad you noticed. Exactly my target. bye.

[greybeard]

Before things go even more negative, why not shut it down. If there was any point to this thread, it has long since past. My bad in getting into it; can use your help in getting out. Thanks.

[mgtr]

Larry Brown was a terrific basketball player. Larry Brown is a terrific basketball coach. Larry Brown is a UNC product. Larry Brown is not a saint. Larry Brown probably drives well over the speed limit (but not enough to get caught) just like I do. (Hey, I was able to put myself in a sentence with Larry Brown!) However, Larry Brown is no John Calipari.
The NCAA seems to let serious problems go on for years, but crack down on trivial rule breaking -- ie, they behave just like a bloated bureaucracy.

[77devil]

Who said that Brown was better in college ball than the pros. He certainly didn't think so. If you are right and El Deano agreed, so apparently did Brown, who has stayed away nothwithstanding having made multiple moves since.

Wow, now its a "lousy human being." Really?

I never met the guy, and don't make such judgments about people I don't know, whose biggest crime by you was allowing the continuation of a practice the Wizard began, and giving a signed recruit a couple of plane tickets, one to bury his grandma. Pretty harsh there, dude, but, hey, it's a free country.

Me, I'm going with my man Brent whose own reputation is impecible and who thinks the world of Larry, as does his old man who has the respect of anyone who he ever dealt with, including Jerry West and Rick Barry, who named his son after Joe's.

"Lousy human being." You da man, dude, you da man!

Yes, really. Larry has demonstrated time in again during his coaching carousel that his first priority is always, uh, Larry. In the court of public opinion, he has rarely hesitated to openly disparage players and management, and his lack of loyalty when adversity or a better offer comes along is distasteful to most I imagine.

[-jk]

Please keep it civil, folks.

-jk

[allenmurray]

Before things go even more negative, why not shut it down. If there was any point to this thread, it has long since past. My bad in getting into it; can use your help in getting out. Thanks.

?????

It is not always easy to get out of a hole, but the first step is always the same - stop digging. If you want out, then just quit posting in the thread. Asking it to be shut down becase you can't exercise the necessary self-restraint to stop posting seems a bit over the top.

[JStuart]

"So, he left Davidson at the alter, after deciding better of living the life of a college coach after having gotten burned twice"

Actually, he left Davidson long before "getting burned" at UCLA or Kansas. He simply decided that he liked another offer better.

The story I always heard was that it took LB a month to realize that the Davidson admissions committee was serious about not giving him carte blanche on who he could recruit. As an undergrad at the time, though, they didn't clear everything through me. (But, Jim Thacker, of the Packer and Thacker announcing team for TV, would walk over and signal me to start the National Anthem in the old Charlotte Coliseum, as I was Pep Band director for a year or two...)

[greybeard]

?????

It is not always easy to get out of a hole, but the first step is always the same - stop digging. If you want out, then just quit posting in the thread. Asking it to be shut down becase you can't exercise the necessary self-restraint to stop posting seems a bit over the top.

Quite right, allenmurray, and very, very well put. Be assured that that thought did not escape me.

I suppose I just got caught up in the energy of times past, when my first basketball coach, Sonny Hertzberg, confronted such accusations in the early days of the NBA. I lied when I said Larry Brown is not one of my boyz. He is, in fact, the list among active particpants of note.

My apologies to DBR. I should never have gotten involved in this thread to begin with. Too sensative an area to be objective and collected. My bad.