Men's LAX NCAA Championship: Duke 6, Notre Dame 5 (OT)

[licc85]

A football school meets a basketball school for the national lacrosse championship. Should be a great match up. Max Quinzani is a beast. GO DUKE!!

[roywhite]

One interesting note is the presence of Jake Tripucka on the Duke roster.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=25941&SPID=2027&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204889368&Q_SEASON=2009

His father Kelly played basketball at Notre Dame and was on the 1978 Irish team that played Duke in the Final Four. You know, the Final Four appearance (only one for Notre Dame) that Digger talks so much about.

[4decadedukie]

You know, the Final Four appearance (only one for Notre Dame) that Digger talks so much about.

I will never forgive -- or forget -- Phelps' arrogance and flagrant disrespect for Duke (and for the ACC in general) during Notre Dame's ONLY Man's Basketball Final Four. Listening to his self-proclaimed "insights" each season on ESPN, and understanding how frequently he is badly wrong and how much obvious derision he receives from his pundit peers, only intensifies my conviction that Digger is a blowhard, with very limited perceptiveness or intellect.

[30scheyer]

It is tough to score on that beast of a ND goalie. Cornell made some nice adjustments at halftime on Sat. and were more successful with fakes.

Perhaps Zoubs or Mason can make it to Baltimore today to give the team opportunities shooting at a goal filled by a goalie...

[Oriole Way]

If anyone would like to meet up before the game, let me know.

[DukieBoy]

Anyone find it weird that Duke is playing a private Indiana school for a national title?

Coincidence?

Let's hope this one ends like the last one

[weezie]

Anyone find it weird that Duke is playing a private Indiana school for a national title?

Coincidence?

Let's hope this one ends like the last one

With one caveat: pound the leprechaun and pound him good. No last seconds of anxiety!
No mercy. Beat those golden helmets into tiny shards of plastic and then make the shards into cheap trinkets that fall out of pinatas.
I mean beat them bad!!!!!

[Newton_14]

Calling all of the Lacrosse experts! Can you guys enlighten those of us that are not as knowledged about the sport? What are our chances in the title game tomorrow? Is this finally our year?

I have watched most of the games the last couple of times they made the Final Four but confess to not knowing the game very well. Any insight on tomorrow's game would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Go Duke

[DevilWearsPrada]

Will be at the Championship game!!! Lets go Duke!!!

[-bdbd]

Calling all of the Lacrosse experts! Can you guys enlighten those of us that are not as knowledged about the sport? What are our chances in the title game tomorrow? Is this finally our year?

I have watched most of the games the last couple of times they made the Final Four but confess to not knowing the game very well. Any insight on tomorrow's game would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Go Duke

Not an expert, but on TV (ESPN) immediately after the UVA game the ESPN desk analyst seemed to be saying that Duke should be favored to win on Monday. However, ND does have the hot goalie and that can make all the difference. Duke has been so hot for the season's second half and tournament. It is a story of a top-tier and hot offense (Duke's) versus a very solid D with the nation's hottest Goalie (ND's).

Anything can happen, but don't bet against the Devils in this one.

:confused:





P.S. Duke's seed in the tournament is #5 after playing in the incredibly strong ACC this year ( ACC had FOUR (!??) of the top five NCAA seeds), while ND was unseeded - i.e. not in the top eight in a 16 team field, and probably woulda fallen in the 10-14 seed range. Of course seeds are irrelevant now...

[roywhite]

Here's an interview with Coach Danowski prior to the Final Four.

http://ondemand.duke.edu/video/22396/lax-coach-john-danowski-previe

I think his tournament experience gives Duke an advantage. I thought Coach D was a little tentative going against Hopkins in the 2007 final, and Duke lost by one goal. I expect to see the team play aggressively this time around.

[MCFinARL]

Calling all of the Lacrosse experts! Can you guys enlighten those of us that are not as knowledged about the sport? What are our chances in the title game tomorrow? Is this finally our year?

I have watched most of the games the last couple of times they made the Final Four but confess to not knowing the game very well. Any insight on tomorrow's game would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Go Duke

There is a fair amount of analysis (decent in the official posts and ranging from very astute to very silly in the comments) on the Inside Lacrosse website, www.insidelacrosse.com, if you want to get a better feel for some of the issues. In the broadest possible terms, Duke likes to pay an uptempo game with a lot of running and looks for opportunities to score in transition when they can. We are also very solid on defense except at goalie, where we have a freshman who probably didn't expect to be the starter this season (the likely starter was dismissed from the team at the beginning of the season for unacceptable conduct of some kind) and seems to get a bit overwhelmed at times. Notre Dame likes a slower paced, half-field game. They are careful on offense--working to extend possessions and take quality shots--and extremely strong on defense. They focus especially on trying to shut down transition scoring, both by collapsing on defense and by working hard to avoid the kinds of mistakes than can start fast break situations in the first place, and their goalie is both huge (at 6'4", 254 lbs., he covers a lot more of the goal than most goalies) and playing extremely well right now. It's an intriguing match up and it's not at all obvious who will win, or even who "should" win, though if we can win face offs, avoid sloppy mistakes on clearing (like the ones we made Saturday) and find ways to score on their goalie, I think our chances are pretty good. Those are big ifs, though.

[hurleyfor3]

A football school meets a basketball school for the national lacrosse championship.

Wait, one of these schools is good in football?

[blazindw]

Just got back from the USA-Turkey soccer match in Philly, and I will be in M&T tomorrow to cheer on our boys!

[Gewebe14]

Wait, one of these schools is good in football?

Have you never heard of David Cutcliffe?

[blueprofessor]

There is a fair amount of analysis (decent in the official posts and ranging from very astute to very silly in the comments) on the Inside Lacrosse website, www.insidelacrosse.com, if you want to get a better feel for some of the issues. In the broadest possible terms, Duke likes to pay an uptempo game with a lot of running and looks for opportunities to score in transition when they can. We are also very solid on defense except at goalie, where we have a freshman who probably didn't expect to be the starter this season (the likely starter was dismissed from the team at the beginning of the season for unacceptable conduct of some kind) and seems to get a bit overwhelmed at times. Notre Dame likes a slower paced, half-field game. They are careful on offense--working to extend possessions and take quality shots--and extremely strong on defense. They focus especially on trying to shut down transition scoring, both by collapsing on defense and by working hard to avoid the kinds of mistakes than can start fast break situations in the first place, and their goalie is both huge (at 6'4", 254 lbs., he covers a lot more of the goal than most goalies) and playing extremely well right now. It's an intriguing match up and it's not at all obvious who will win, or even who "should" win, though if we can win face offs, avoid sloppy mistakes on clearing (like the ones we made Saturday) and find ways to score on their goalie, I think our chances are pretty good. Those are big ifs, though.
Good summary,MCFinARL .
Another way of explaining ND's style is that they play a lot like Hopkins did in those semi or championship games when the Jays beat us by 1 goal .
That is a very frustrating style for a team like Duke that thrives in games with high numbers of possessions.

I do believe this Duke edition is very strong mentally and has more patience---team qualities that win this sort of game.
Can our defense prevent the close shots that our goalie appears to have little chance of stopping?
We have a tremendously talented, versatile, and athletic defense (goaltending excepted) --they may just win this game for Duke.

I expect an exciting game because ND goalie Scott Rodgers is fearless and quick meeting close-in shots--- he won the Cornell game by stopping the talented Pannell and Hurley several times on point-blank shots. Cornell could easily have had a 5-0 1st quarter lead. He is formidable in saving high, corner shots. Maybe we'll see Duke attacking thebottom corners ---perhaps a more difficult stop for a huge goalie.

Go, Duke! Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[MisterRoddy]

It's game time Dukies! Tune into ESPN

[Big Pappa]

Not a bad half (3-2 Duke), especially good on defense. Our offense looks out-of-sync and a little sluggish from the game Saturday. Notre Dame is controlling the tempo which worries me, but I think a little rest at half will help our offense.

[Bluedevil114]

Need to win faceoffs and take better shots. Too much in a rush first half. Notre Dame is playing stall ball so you have to win faceoffs to speed up the game to our tempo.

Go Duke!!

[4decadedukie]

Pros:
- Duke leads 3 to 2
- Our (not between the pipes) defense has been aggressive and largely effective
- Our offense has been "satisfactory"

Cons:
- Their goaltender has been superb, while ours continues to struggle
- Notre Dame has driven the tempo to "their game" denying Duke its best-in-Division I uptempo attack
- Too many Duke turnovers
- Too few Duke face-off victories at the X

In the second half, we must:
- Take more shots, but not "desperation" low percentage attempts
- Continue to be proactive in defense, forcing turnovers and precluding shots
- Dominate face-offs
- Move the game to our proven, successful uptempo offensive style

[juise]

Does anyone else notice that this feels like a basketball game we watched a few months ago?

[Bluedevil114]

Does anyone else notice that this feels like a basketball game we watched a few months ago?

Hopefully as time is ticking down they have to shoot from mid field to tie the game. Then we see Zoubek jump up and down as the goal makes the save.

[uh_no]

this game is like exhibit a as to why i don't like lax

ND can just throw the ball around for like 5 minutes and nothing happens.....its very difficult to steal the ball.....and so duke can't do anything if the other team plays slow.....5 minutes of playing keepaway is not interesting......


so go duke....but these are just about the only games i'll watch all year

[SCMatt33]

We've had so many chances. We gotta put something in!!!

[WordLife565]

so stressed.

[SCMatt33]

14 secs, lucky break on the violation. One more chance...

[SCMatt33]

ot. let's go faceoff!

[Son of Mojo]

Gooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllll l!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[WordLife565]

Champions!!!

[Deslok]

WOW

What a way to end it. Duke, National Champs!

[WiJoe]

Way to go fellas!

[chadlee989]

What a great game. Great time to be a duke fan. First basketball now Lax. Champs!!!!!!

[juise]

Congratulations, Duke... especially the seniors!

[MisterRoddy]

Great Play by CJ and we are the National Champs, Again! :)

As to the celebration...obviously they didnt see that Angels game a few days back lol.

[killerleft]

Whew! So nervewracking! Congratulations Champs!

[3rd Dukie]

I don't know Jack about LAX, but this was unbelievable!

Congrats, guys!

[Bluedevil114]

Congrats Duke!! 2010 National Champions!! With the walk-off face off!! Incredible victory, great game!!

[cspan37421]

What a quick finish in OT!

Great year to be a Dukie. Next year, do we hit a record low in acceptance rate?

[terrih]

I am really liking the sound of that. What a goal to win it! Awesome.

[SCMatt33]

First ever year with two titles for Duke! They would both be right up there if you could hand pick two as well! WOOHOO!!!!

[TampaDukie]

As to the celebration...obviously they didnt see that Angels game a few days back lol.
LOL! I turned my head for a few second and when I looked up, we'd scored the winning goal. I had to rewind the TiVo to catch it again. What an exciting finish. And, yes, glad that no one suffered a broken leg in the pile up. ;)

Go Devils! I was just visiting campus this past weekend, and my mom asked me, after we left the bookstore, if anyone still bought Duke Lacrosse merchandise. I told her lots of people. I'm sure there will be many more people now.

[PDDuke85]

Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

What a fantastic play at the end! I look forward to watching it being replayed over and over!

[AZLA]

Did that just happen?!!!

I don't know hardly anything about lacrosse -- but wow -- Number #9, winning a faceoff -- outsprinting everyone straight up the pitch, through all the defenders, and scoring up top to win the Championship was absolutely incredible!

[sandinmyshoes]

They dictated the pace, but our guys beat 'em at their own game. My finger nails usually grow back following basketball season. This has set me back a month or two!

[sandinmyshoes]

And the ACC rules LAX. :D

[duke09hms]

What a quick finish in OT!

Great year to be a Dukie. Next year, do we hit a record low in acceptance rate?

F--- yeah!! Justice is served, DUKE STYLE baby!!

and p.s. that was this year, acceptance rate dropped to record low 14%

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Congrats LAX!!!!!

[Devilsfan]

Finally, justice. One question though. Why didn't they show D. Broadhead at the game? I saw Kevin W. How nice for his guys to beat his old school. Great win guys! Go Duke!

[DukeCO2009]

Justice!!!

[SCMatt33]

Maybe we can find Mike Nifong and hire him to polish it for us!!!!

[godukerocks]

Finally, justice. One question though. Why didn't they show D. Broadhead at the game? I saw Kevin W. How nice for his guys to beat his old school. Great win guys! Go Duke!

I wonder if Mike Pressler was at the game?

Champs!!

[DukieInKansas]

With one caveat: pound the leprechaun and pound him good. No last seconds of anxiety!
No mercy. Beat those golden helmets into tiny shards of plastic and then make the shards into cheap trinkets that fall out of pinatas.
I mean beat them bad!!!!!

Tell us how you really feel, Weezie!

I'm happy with the 1 goal victory.

[CBDUKE]

Anybody know when the shirts and hats will be available?

[Mike Corey]

Thrilling win for Coach Danowski and Co.

Those guys truly, truly deserved it. After the heart-wrenching losses of the past few seasons--the unfortunate imbroglio of '06 notwithstanding--this was a long-time comin'.

Hope these guys enjoy meeting the president in a few months, and every other perk that comes with being NCAA Champion.

Thanks for all you've done. Enjoy it.

[DukieInKansas]

Anybody know when the shirts and hats will be available?

I don't know but I look forward to buying one! I may need to replace my flag - it has been up since bball Final Four and is just a bit ragged.

Congratulations, Duke Lacrosse. I'm so glad they were able to win for the guys that kept their commitment to come for the 2006-2007 academic year and for the freshman from the 2005-2006 academic year.

[grossbus]

outstanding!!! i didn't watch, because we always lose when i do. hope to get some replays of the key plays.

[77devil]

I kept asking myself for most of the game why is CJ taking the faceoffs instead of Payton? That's why Danowski's the coach. Rodgers was a vacuum cleaner.

[grossbus]

please point me to a replay of the winning goal. :)

[summerwind03]

That was a nailbiter. Congrats to the Men's Lacrosse Team.

[FireOgilvie]

That was fantastic! The Notre Dame defenders never stepped up to challenge Costabile and he just slammed it into the goal. Awesome. I like that it only took us 5 seconds to win it in OT, but we couldn't score for something like 17 minutes at one point.

[Mike Corey]

Championship clothing available here (http://www.shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS/form=cat.html&cat=366&store=?KEY=&DB_OEM_ID=4200&DB_LANG=&IN_SUBSCRIBER_CONTENT=).

[SCMatt33]

Gotta give credit where credit is Due. Give Dan Wigrizer a ton of credit for stepping up in the second half and getting 4 saves (he only had 1 at halftime) including a huge one to keep Duke within 1 during the fourth quarter. He had taken a lot of heat during the tourney, and really made some big stops in the last 30 minutes (plus 5 seconds!).

[DukieInKansas]

please point me to a replay of the winning goal. :)

I have it taped - come on over!

[Eckster]

What a fantastic play at the end! I look forward to watching it being replayed over and over!

I have already watched it over and over and it is still so sweet! Awesome! Go Duke!

[Devil07]

Wow what a spring! So happy for the team and for Coach Danowski. So fitting that we'd win what I believe I heard is the lowest scoring championship game in NCAA lacrosse history. It took longer than I think most of us expected, but the team finally got that story book ending it deserves. And a huge thank you to Coach Danowski. This must just be so satisfying for him. He took a serious risk to take this job when he did and gave up a lot for Duke. I was on campus during the entire ordeal and to see how far the program has come is just amazing. What a great day for Duke and what a great year it's been!

[cspan37421]

and p.s. that was this year, acceptance rate dropped to record low 14%

Perhaps, but my point is that I would not be surprised if the number drops further next year. I suspect the acceptance rate for this year was determined before the Butler game, certainly before the Notre Dame game.

[calvindog]

About as an extraordinary ending as you could ever have in a championship game. Perfection.

[weezie]

We're the Number One-est Number One!
We're Super Number One!!!!

Congrats Lax Blue Devils!!!

[cspan37421]

We're the Number One-est Number One!


Number one squared? Or number one to the "oneth" power?

Any way you cut it, we come out ahead, 6 to 5!

"We tip off / our hats to / old Notre Dame,
having / just beat them / at their own game...."

[blueprofessor]

We beat ND at their game. I think it was lowest scoring NCAA championship lacrosse game ever.

Costabile's shot was the fastest ever in OT in NCAA lax history.

If you had been told Duke scored 5 goals in regulation, would you have assumed a loss?
All credit to our guys' mental strength--a slowdown game with their having a hot goalie (15 saves and MOP of tourney) and ,yet, we won.

Four Devils on the all-tourney team: Max, Manley, Howell (a true,though unlisted, all-America), and Costabile. http://insidelacrosse.com/news/2010/05/31/mens-lacrosse-2010-ncaa-all-tournament-team-announced

A great win that will slam the door on negative recruiting that we are not well-coached and, hence, cannot win the championship.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[gumbomoop]

Perhaps, but my point is that I would not be surprised if the number drops further next year. I suspect the acceptance rate for this year was determined before the Butler game, certainly before the Notre Dame game.

If it drops to 13%, I sure hope Austin Rivers gets in.

As to the game, the score and overall pace would seem clearly to have favored ND. Lots of tension. That breakaway on the faceoff reminds me of the occasional soccer goal within 10-15 seconds of kickoff. Always stunning. That it happened in OT of NC is ultra-stunning.

Amazing story last several years. Interesting to see how media play it. Nice reference to LT's friendship with several players, and LT's joy on campus. Now they can all share.

[Duke1994]

Championship clothing available here (http://www.shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS/form=cat.html&cat=366&store=?KEY=&DB_OEM_ID=4200&DB_LANG=&IN_SUBSCRIBER_CONTENT=).
Whomever was doing the advanced mock-ups of the Duke lax championship shirts was expecting a high-scoring Duke-Cornell final -- see the DukeStores link:

http://www.shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS/this_category=58&store=106&item_number=10767&form=shared3/gm/detail.html&design=106#

[CrazyNotCrazie]

What a way to end it after a relatively uninspiring 60 minutes of regulation. Their goalie was really impressive, but ours stepped up as necessary. After all of the near misses over the past few years, this was particularly enjoyable. This win wasn't just for the guy son the field, but all the Duke lax players who came before them.

Great job by Coach Danowski. Go Duke! And as much as I dislike Notre Dame, kudos to their team as well.

[burnspbesq]

please point me to a replay of the winning goal. :)

Check espn.com and insidelacrosse.com in an hour or so. Or wait for SportsCenter - it's sure to be a top play.

Would love to see a shot chart. The ND defense played lights-out, but so did the Duke defense, forcing ND to fire from outside and from bad angles. I'm betting that less than a third of ND's shots were actually on net.

Edit: ND was on target on 10 of 31 shots (5 goals, 5 saves). Duke was on target on 21 of 33 (6 goals, 15 saves).

[blueprofessor]

Check espn.com and insidelacrosse.com in an hour or so. Or wait for SportsCenter - it's sure to be a top play.

Would love to see a shot chart. The ND defense played lights-out, but so did the Duke defense, forcing ND to fire from outside and from bad angles. I'm betting that less than a third of ND's shots were actually on net.

Yes, our longsticks protected our goalie well in the first half---only 3 of ND's 19 shots were on-goal.

Game totals: Harassed by our defenders, ND only had 10 shots on goal of 31 total shots (our goalie saved 5) , while Duke had 21 shots on goal of 33 total shots (Rodgers saved 15).
Who would have thought that our defense would win this game?

Costabile's goal was the fastest ever to start an OT in NCAA lacrosse history.

Best--Blueprofessor:)

[calvindog]

I couldn't help but think watching the game that it reminded me of the Duke/Butler BB championship game. Excrutiating to watch...slow game played at our opponent's pace.

[Bastogne]

Congratulations to the Duke Lacrosse Team and to the Duke Lacrosse Family, and a huge thanks to Coach Danowski for guiding this program through a terrible storm and bringing it out stronger on the other side. Right guy at the right time, without a doubt. But maybe we should start framing it as right guy at any time.

This is an enormously proud moment for Duke University, and hope it is viewed as such by the broader community and administration. Even my Tarheel wife (I know, I know) was happy for those kids today, which is the first time in her life she has been happy to see Duke win anything (which I can respect, if not admire). "Wow. Good for them," she said. "Lord knows, they earned it."

Indeed. On and off the pitch. Well done. Enjoy this.

[dukejim1]

What should the City of Durham do to honor this championship

[doctorhook]

Anybody have a link to the winning goal?

[30scheyer]

outstanding!!! i didn't watch, because we always lose when i do. hope to get some replays of the key plays.

check out espn news...the shot is in the rotation of highlights

anybody see notice of espu replaying the game? please let me know as I was working during the game....

[burnspbesq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oty-GAM-NEI

[miramar]

Coach Danowski, his staff, and his players deserve all the credit in the world, but especially the fifth-year seniors who went from the worst of times to the best of times. We need to play those private Indiana schools more often.

[burnspbesq]

"Clean win by Costabile" goes right next to "There's the pass to Laettner" in the library of great Duke sound-bites.

We have a kitty named Laettner. I guess the next one we adopt has to be named "CJ."

[Mike Corey]

Whomever was doing the advanced mock-ups of the Duke lax championship shirts was expecting a high-scoring Duke-Cornell final -- see the DukeStores link:

http://www.shopdukestores.duke.edu/ePOS/this_category=58&store=106&item_number=10767&form=shared3/gm/detail.html&design=106#

That's very funny. :)

[BD80]

great play in goal today. We needed 50% saves and we got it. Rodgers at over 70% was amazing.

We lose 17 seniors (an enlarged group because many are 5th year seniors that got an extra year of eligibility because the 2006 team was Nifonged.

Wonder how long it will be before we hear the griping that we only won because our 5th year seniors got the extra year?

We do return a goalie who won the NC as a FRESHMAN, and has three years of eligibility remaining.

Great job Devils!

It's good to be king!

[Billy Dat]

Congrats Duke!! 2010 National Champions!! With the walk-off face off!! Incredible victory, great game!!

WALK OFF FACE OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BlueDevil14 - get the trademark and make the tshirts. I'll buy one. I hope, somehow, those 2006ers feel good about this one.

[Johnboy]

Wonder how long it will be before we hear the griping that we only won because our 5th year seniors got the extra year?


I guess we'll just have to repeat!

[chrishoke]

WALK OFF FACE OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BlueDevil14 - get the trademark and make the tshirts. I'll buy one. I hope, somehow, those 2006ers feel good about this one.

Put me down for a dozen.

How sweet it is.

[peloton]

Congrats to the men's lacrosse team and Coach Danowski! Although I wasn't able to watch the entire game (such is the life of the homeowner in the 'burbs) I was able to catch the 2nd half. Pretty tense and exciting to say the least...just great that the Devils brought home the NCAA Div I lacrosse championship, and obviously all the sweeter after having won the roundball championship not long ago! Wait to go guys!

[Deladev]

Absolutely. It was a very exciting Final Four!

[blazindw]

Got back from the game a little while ago...MAN, what a game! I definitely felt like I did when we were in the final 3 seconds against Butler. But, that was a great play to end it...the guy just decided "I'm finished playing with you Fighting Irish...time for me to ring that championship bell!" When we beat Johns Hopkins, I had a feeling that we had overcome our lacrosse tournament demons and that we would have the confidence to stay in games till the end and emerge victorious. How right my intuition was.

So glad for the team, for Coach Danowski (who has been nothing short of incredible since he took over the team) and especially for the seniors who have been through so much. Definitely well deserved, and I was glad to be there to witness it!

[killerleft]

What should the City of Durham do to honor this championship

I think a parade down Buchanan would be great! Everybody could beat pots and pans or something.:rolleyes:

[DoubleDuke Dad]

I just got back from the game. What a great ending! We started off the season by beating the national team and ended the season by winning the National Championship. How sweet it is!

[30scheyer]

9pm eastern
espnu is replaying the natl championship game

[4decadedukie]

An amazing Championship victory against an excellent Notre Dame team (with the best goaltender I have ever seen, combined with excellent riding/checking defense that was able to control tempo and therefore to undermine Duke's fast, agile and extremely potent offense) . . . until OT, where -- in five seconds -- we were able to play our game-style and achieve a long-stick midfielder power goal directly from the face-off X.

CONGRATULATIONS to the team, the coaches, the die-hard fans, and to Duke's Men's Lacrosse program.

I have awaited this seminal National Championship for MANY years, and I now revel in it.

[DST Fan]

I kept asking myself for most of the game why is CJ taking the faceoffs instead of Payton? That's why Danowski's the coach. Rodgers was a vacuum cleaner.

In his two years, CJ has shown he can win faceoffs and score goals. He did some nice work on faceoffs last year against Shane Walterhofer of UNC in the ACC championship game. CJ won 10 of 17, and scored three goals, one or two of which came on faceoffs. Three goals in a game is extraordinary for a longsticker and, as a result, CJ was the ACC tournament MVP last year.

[budwom]

I couldn't help but think watching the game that it reminded me of the Duke/Butler BB championship game. Excrutiating to watch...slow game played at our opponent's pace.

Ah yes, more than a few parallels.
We beat a private school, from Indiana, which had Cinderella status, in a gruesome defensive struggle decided on a last second shot.
The sports guys are liking us, let's hope their largesse continues in recruiting.

[wolfpackdevil]

Order has been restored.....again

[Oriole Way]

Congrats to Duke and the entire team and staff on finally achieving redemption for the 2006 season, as well as the past three seasons which saw talented Duke teams fell short. Duke's basketball team went through a similar post-season progression before winning their first national title. I hope the guys who were on the 2006 team feel some vindication.

I was at the game and it was well-played and close throughout. Worried that the tempo favored Notre Dame, and I was nervous before overtime at the thought of trying to beat their brick wall of a goalie. C.J Costabile's faceoff charge and goal will certainly go down as one of my favorite sporting event moments ever.

[Devilsfan]

I hope there's a special page of congratulations taken out and signed by faculty members in the school paper. Indy restored order and Baltimore second the motion.

[semper phi 78]

One interesting note is the presence of Jake Tripucka on the Duke roster.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=25941&SPID=2027&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204889368&Q_SEASON=2009

His father Kelly played basketball at Notre Dame and was on the 1978 Irish team that played Duke in the Final Four. You know, the Final Four appearance (only one for Notre Dame) that Digger talks so much about.

Another father-son connection is with ND Coach Kevin Corrigan. His father (Gene Corrigan, Duke ’52) started 4 years for Duke Lacrosse. Gene’s career included serving as AD at both UVA and Notre Dame. Kevin played at UVA.

http://www.vshfm.com/hall/induct_corrigan.html

[cspan37421]

seems to me that one way of defusing the argument over an extra year is to ask, "how many NCAA tournaments were these guys allowed to play in?" If they answer "five", then you get to correct them and point out that there was no "extra year", just a restored one.

[WiJoe]

or, just reply, "Sour grapes, aina?"


:D

[-bdbd]

Congratulations Duke Lacrosse - 2010 National Champions.

And a special 'thank you' to Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty, and David Evans - whose own blood and sacrifices cannot be forgotten in contributing to Duke's first Lax National Championship. I sincerely hope they feel a part of this. They deserve to. (As does their old coach, Mike Pressler.)

Wahoo!! Somebody pinch me - Duke wins unexpected National Championsips in successive moths for MBB and LAX, while UCONN is under serious NCAA investigation, NC@CH has a .500 season - its worst in almost a decade - amid coach and fanbase meltdowns, UK has a NCAA meltdown of its own and loses about 20 players to the NBA... This can't all be happening all at once -- I MUST be dreaming!!! What's next, a FB National Championship??!

Just 'wow!'

:D :D :D

[burnspbesq]

Inside Carolina is, as always, morbidly amusing after a Duke success.

Some idiot is talking about the Heels having the best attackman in the ACC coming back next year. Bitter is an enormous talent, but whether due to injury or something else, he underachieved massively in 2010. I'd say he was no better than the #7 attackman in the league this year, behind our three starters, Stanwick and Bocklet of Virginia, and Grant Catalino of Maryland.

Carolina will have more talent than anyone next year. The challenge for Breschi is to get all that talent on the same page. It sure didn't happen this year.

[devildeac]

Inside Carolina is, as always, morbidly amusing after a Duke success.

Some idiot is talking about the Heels having the best attackman in the ACC coming back next year. Bitter is an enormous talent, but whether due to injury or something else, he underachieved massively in 2010. I'd say he was no better than the #7 attackman in the league this year, behind our three starters, Stanwick and Bocklet of Virginia, and Grant Catalino of Maryland.

Carolina will have more talent than anyone next year. The challenge for Breschi is to get all that talent on the same page. It sure didn't happen this year.

Sad, isn't it.

BWAHAHAHA

[buddy]

I have finally cooled down from the inferno that was Baltimore. I still can't believe that I was there for both Laettner and Costabile. Those shots will continue to live forever in Duke history, and in ESPN promos. Congratulations to the team for persevering.

[greybeard]

Duke won this thing straight up and doing everything you could ask of a team. They beat an incredibly talented UVa team which had them beat only the game wasn't over, and beat ND playing their game and completely, as I saw it, dominating the final quarter which wasn't reflected in the score.

What I thought most impressive was how Duke turned a usually secure and careful ND team over, again and again, on clears, on plays in which a Duke player might have made a careless play and given it up, only to have a long stick come back and make a spectacular swipe and then Duke emerge with the ball from a scrum. Oh, one other thing, against my guys, that would be Cornell, ND's shooters got to the middle of the field to shoot. Duke took that away, period. Oh, ND might have gotten there a few times and I think one, maybe two of its scores came from between the hash marks and were the shots that ND wanted, but, for the most part, that took what the Duke defense allowed, which really wasn't very much, not very much at all.

Watching that fourth quarter, I had the feeling that ND was hanging on by its finger nails, even while its athletes were playing great, created some decent chances, turned Duke over, and its goalie, well, props to him. But Duke was the superior team in my mind throughout that fourth quarter.

Nos 35 and 39 did their things on Duke's stars with no help, but did not stop other scorers, and, like I said, Duke was able to grind with the best of the grinders. And, hey, as others have mentioned, the goalie stood firm against some rockets that could easily have gotten by; even one down the stretch, and there were several, had it gotten by, it might have been bye bye.

So, hats off to a team that walked through the front door, took on all comers, and took what it had earned. And, yes, if those guys from the year that the sky fell did not feel that they were out there with them, many fair-minded lacrosse fans of all stripes did. Well, done gentlemen, a championship well earned. Grey

[Deslok]

Herald Sun story headline...

Duke lacrosse gets happy ending

Ya know, you just might want to rephrase that just a bit, especially given the papers headlines a few years back relating the team to another activity that uses that term...

[SoCalDukeFan]

I am a Duke Alum who knows little about lacrosse. I have watched most of the tournament games involving Duke that have telecast the last few years.

First of all congratulations on a great win. Very tense game. Super play at the end.

Question 1. It would seem to me that you want a big guy as goalie to take up more space. The shots can be so fast from such a short distance that there is not much reaction. Not knocking our goalie who did make some big plays, but would you not want a bigger person in goal.

Question 2. How often does a player win the face off (if that what it is called) run down and score? It appeared to me to be an amazing play that caught Notre Dame by surprise.

This is a very sweet win. Obviously the team has been through a lot with Nifong and two one goal losses in the NC game. Maybe the very tough journey makes the final reward that much better.

SoCal

[DevilWearsPrada]

Easter weekend, I was in Indy for the Final 4 and still riding on a high from that National Championship. Then went to Baltimore (Memorial Weekend) for the Lax Championship. I was saying during the game yesterday, that it reminded me of Duke-Butler. Back and forth, and fighting for every possession and goal. When there was 14 seconds left in the match, yesterday, I said "We are going to win this Title, because this team will duplicate the Basketball team, and crank out a classic title." The overtime had everyone on their feet. CJ was so awesome!!! Absolutely wonderful to spend Holiday long weekends winning National Championships!!! What a fabulous last 2 months! Congrats to the Duke Lacrosse team. So glad I was there for "Their Shining Moment." GO DUKE !!!

[4decadedukie]

I am a Duke Alum who knows little about lacrosse. I have watched most of the tournament games involving Duke that have telecast the last few years.

First of all congratulations on a great win. Very tense game. Super play at the end.

Question 1. It would seem to me that you want a big guy as goalie to take up more space. The shots can be so fast from such a short distance that there is not much reaction. Not knocking our goalie who did make some big plays, but would you not want a bigger person in goal.

Question 2. How often does a player win the face off (if that what it is called) run down and score? It appeared to me to be an amazing play that caught Notre Dame by surprise.

This is a very sweet win. Obviously the team has been through a lot with Nifong and two one goal losses in the NC game. Maybe the very tough journey makes the final reward that much better.

SoCal


SoCal,

I am a Duke alum, raised on Long Island’s North Shore, where – even in the early/mid-1960s – lacrosse was a very popular sport. To attempt to answer your questions:

Q1: It would seem to me that you want a big guy as goalie to take up more space. The shots can be so fast from such a short distance that there is not much reaction. Not knocking our goalie who did make some big plays, but would you not want a bigger person in goal.
A1: All other things being equal, you are right. However, “big and nimble” are always an easy-to-achieve combination, and the optimal balance between agility/athleticism and size is critical. In addition, the goalkeeper frequently acts as a quarterback of sorts for the terminal defense team; this requires intelligence, communications, leadership and a real sense for the game. FYI, Notre Dame’s Scott Rogers (I saw him three times this year) played about as fine a game between the pipes yesterday as you will ever be privileged to see.

Q2: How often does a player win the face off (if that what it is called) run down and score? It appeared to me to be an amazing play that caught Notre Dame by surprise.
A2: It happens, perhaps every other game on excellent offensive teams; Duke has been successful with long-stick midfielders driving in for goals several times this year. Obviously, the key is to win the faceoff and then to drive immediately from the X to the crease, before the defense is established. I suspect that Notre Dame loaded the area proximate to the X, understanding that in “sudden death” the first possession is crucial and wanting to maximize their possibility of winning that OT faceoff. A reasonable comparison is a “coast to coast” point guard drive – in transition, especially after a steal – in basketball.

Thanks for your interest.

[VaDukie]

I was in Baltimore for the game yesterday. Almost unbearably hot, but the Iron Dukes had a great tailgate and sitting through 90 degree heat is a small price to pay to see a game like that. A special congrats should go to the player's parents, especially the seniors, for sticking with the program through tough times.

Great game, great win, great team, great year. Go Duke!

[Carlos]

Herald Sun story headline...

Duke lacrosse gets happy ending

Ya know, you just might want to rephrase that just a bit, especially given the papers headlines a few years back relating the team to another activity that uses that term...

My guess is that the Herald Scum doesn't want to rephrase that at all and it was just another cheap shot at the lax team.

[devildeac]

My guess is that the Herald Scum doesn't want to rephrase that at all and it was just another cheap shot at the lax team.

Unless they're too dumm (sic) to realize another meaning. There's also a beer by that name. But I can't mention it here.

[Billy Dat]

I have watched the OT face-off approximately a million times now and still can't believe C.J. Costabile emerged, toting that huge stick, like he was shot out of a canon. That is one of the most remarkable championship winning plays I have ever seen.

[MCFinARL]

And, hey, as others have mentioned, the goalie stood firm against some rockets that could easily have gotten by; even one down the stretch, and there were several, had it gotten by, it might have been bye bye.


Your analysis sounds right to me generally--and I want to especially add some props for Dan Wigrizer, who did indeed make some crucial saves in a game where a two-goal lead for either team would have been almost insurmountable. Watching from the stands, we actually were surprised to learn later that he only had 5 saves--probably because, in addition, he reeled in some balls that weren't "on goal", and as a result, Duke got the ball instead of Notre Dame recovering on an out of bounds shot. Given the relentless focus among lax experts leading into the weekend on goalie play as Duke's main weakness, I'm guessing it took a lot of character and mental toughness for him to play as well as he did yesterday.

[soccerstud2210]

what a great game! edge of my seat the whole game!

congrats to the boys! they deserved this after the heartbreaks against J.H.!

i kinda like crushing the glass slipper of the cinderella stories :)

[greybeard]

Your analysis sounds right to me generally--and I want to especially add some props for Dan Wigrizer, who did indeed make some crucial saves in a game where a two-goal lead for either team would have been almost insurmountable. Watching from the stands, we actually were surprised to learn later that he only had 5 saves--probably because, in addition, he reeled in some balls that weren't "on goal", and as a result, Duke got the ball instead of Notre Dame recovering on an out of bounds shot. Given the relentless focus among lax experts leading into the weekend on goalie play as Duke's main weakness, I'm guessing it took a lot of character and mental toughness for him to play as well as he did yesterday.

After watching from the club level end zone in its match up against Cornell, I can't tell you how stunning it was to watch the finals on TV and see how determined and effective Duke was to keep ND's mids and attackmen out of the middle of the field. They succeeded wildly, which was a key since that is where ND really wanted the ball.

Only 5, it did seem like more. The kid really stood up, they all did on both sides.

A cornell buddy of mine who helps id guys for Tambroni had his eye on the kid who scored the winner. Said his dentist put him on to the kid. My friend is from Manhassett, LI, where, if you don't know lax, apparently you can't even fix teeth.

Arthur, who knows goalies (he represented Ken Dryden) says that all his goalie friends tell him that stopping those type shots from long poles is a fearsome task.

Heck of a play, but, for my money, Duke was dominant in that fourth quarter. Momentum has a way of carrying over into OT in this game, more so than others. The entire OT system in lax seems structured for all out aggressive play, so if, as was the case here, the mo seems to be with one side, it can and often does end quick. Even so, this was a stunner.

[MB in MD]

Arthur, who knows goalies (he represented Ken Dryden) says that all his goalie friends tell him that stopping those type shots from long poles is a fearsome task.


I thought of this but hadn't seen that brought up here. I can well imagine that Rogers was terrified watching CJ come roaring straight at him flayling his long pole. I am sure that shot came off at an angle that was different from what he'd been used to blocking all afternoon.

As great as Duke's defensive performance was, and as clutch as Wigrizer was, Rogers put on a performance most of us are unlikely to see again; I had no quibble whatsoever with his MOP award. Had his save percentage been merely an outstanding 60% instead of an otherworldly 70% we would have won by 3 in regulation.

And it was an otherworldly weekend for me, getting to experience the win in person. Was surrounded mostly by UVa types, which of course was a ND section yesterday, and the silence at the end was priceless. Except it wasn't really silence as I was screaming my head off.

[weezie]

I thought of this but hadn't seen that brought up here. I can well imagine that Rogers was terrified watching CJ come roaring straight at him flayling his long pole.

I have a hard time believing that Rogers is afraid of anything! Maybe shocked at how fast Costabile was moving past the rest of the frozen ND defensive guys, but certainly not really comprehending what was going on until that ball sailed past him into the net. A brilliant coaching decision, simply marvelous and with a miraculous stroke of luck. Yowsa.

[blueprofessor]

I have a hard time believing that Rogers is afraid of anything! Maybe shocked at how fast Costabile was moving past the rest of the frozen ND defensive guys, but certainly not really comprehending what was going on until that ball sailed past him into the net. A brilliant coaching decision, simply marvelous and with a miraculous stroke of luck. Yowsa.

Rodgers was not ready for that winning shot---meaning he may have thought Duke would hold the ball longer or that Costabile would pass to Crotty to start the offense. Or ,as in hockey, he may have been screened a bit or influenced by the depth of movement going out 14 yards.
Rodgers made a number of more difficult and closer-shot saves during the game--and some saves , unlike the winning shot, were extreme corner (top and bottom ) shots.
I think Rodgers was as he was throughout the game--focused, but never nervous, afraid, or anxious.

Costabile showed a great deal of guts on that shot. A Rodgers save and ND would have held the ball until they got an excellent shot and, given the fact that our freshman goalie Dan Wigrizer had no more than 2 or maybe three difficult saves out of his 5 for the game, ND would have had a better than even chance to win the game on their next possession.

The defense took as much pressure off of Wigrizer as they could by pressuring ND shooters so that ND had only 10 shots on goal the entire game out of 31 shots. Dan stopped half (a 50% save rate---a fine job).
If ND had just 2 more shots on goal, probably one would have been a goal and we would have lost.
Rodgers stopped 15 of 21 on goal shots--against a Duke or UVA with a stellar collection of scorers(in other words, the attempt can come from Crotty, Max, Howell, or other deadeye scorers), that is a remarkable achievement.
Best:)--Blueprofessor

[greybeard]

I have a hard time believing that Rogers is afraid of anything! Maybe shocked at how fast Costabile was moving past the rest of the frozen ND defensive guys, but certainly not really comprehending what was going on until that ball sailed past him into the net. A brilliant coaching decision, simply marvelous and with a miraculous stroke of luck. Yowsa.

That shot almost always goes down. I have to think that Rogers was looking for that and was frozen solid by Costabile's failure to "show" in any manner that that was where he was going, which of course it wasn't. So, he might not have been scared stiff, but he definitely was too frozen to even think about trying to make a play, which I think was the point here.

[yancem]

First off, congratulations to the team. What a great and well deserved victory. Secondly, I read in one of the articles linked by DBR that Duke is the first, first time champion, since 1992. That's incredible and shows how top heavy lacrosse is at the ncaa level. That being said, now that the monkey is off Duke's back (so to speak), history would seem to indicate that the second championship should be much easier to come by!

[Eckster]

My son plays lax with a D-pole. Those long-pole shots on goal are some of the hardest for the goalie to judge because they're not used to it. They come from different angle and differ significantly from what the goalie usually sees coming out of the pocket of the shooter. True that it seems most of these shots hit the ground en route to goal to confuse the goalie and force him to judge the bounce and respond quickly. Perhaps Rogers was expecting that but I think everyone on the ND side was just caught off guard by the speed at which CJ took the ball up the field and took that shot (fastest in history of overtime NCAA Lacrosse!). Watching the replay a bunch of times, you can see the guys battling at each of his sides just to catch up to him, finally diving to just get a hit on his stick as he took the winning shot, to no avail. Awesome!

[blueprofessor]

My son plays lax with a D-pole. Those long-pole shots on goal are some of the hardest for the goalie to judge because they're not used to it. They come from different angle and differ significantly from what the goalie usually sees coming out of the pocket of the shooter. True that it seems most of these shots hit the ground en route to goal to confuse the goalie and force him to judge the bounce and respond quickly. Perhaps Rogers was expecting that but I think everyone on the ND side was just caught off guard by the speed at which CJ took the ball up the field and took that shot (fastest in history of overtime NCAA Lacrosse!). Watching the replay a bunch of times, you can see the guys battling at each of his sides just to catch up to him, finally diving to just get a hit on his stick as he took the winning shot, to no avail. Awesome!

That shot often travels at 100 mph because of the leverage of the extra length of the stick. Think Nolan Ryan with a 5 feet longer arm.
The reason the shot from longsticks usually hits the ground as pointed out by Eckster is that these players are not skilled in shooting.

After watching two replays of the game,and it gets better every time,it is obvious that there is no shot that goes in most of the time against Rodgers.
He stuffed several of the best scorers in college lacrosse throughout the semi and final games from closer-in despite the attacker's dazzling moves.

To stop the winning shot,Rodgers needed to move considerably less distance than on numerous other saves.

He simply looks like he was not expecting the shot from Costabile or from Duke right then. Why?

Costabile had not scored a goal the entire season before the NCAA tourney. He had taken only 5 shots w/o a goal during the regular season. He was always a pass-first player.
Rodgers, having gone over the scouting report, would have been aware of that fact.
Of course, thank goodness for the exception: a shot by a longstick that was over the goalie's shoulder, not on the ground, and a shot that was taken by someone who was 0 for 5 during the regular season at a crucial time in the match.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[Spy]

That shot often travels at 100 mph because of the leverage of the extra length of the stick. Think Nolan Ryan with a 5 feet longer arm.
The reason the shot from longsticks usually hits the ground as pointed out by Eckster is that these players are not skilled in shooting.

Yes, the shots do tend to be a bit faster with a pole, but not 100. More like mid-upper 90s. And coaches actually tell d-poles to bounce it because that just makes the shot even less predictable, and because if they try to hit the corners, they're more likely to miss entirely.

[roywhite]

I've watched that final shot a dozen times and enjoyed it.

Two analogies occur to me:

1. Going back a ways, but Franco Harris broke a TD from about 20 yards up the middle against the Cowboy in SB XIII; just ran right by the Dallas defenders who could do little more than lunge in his general direction. Like Franco, Costabile is a big guy who surprised them with his speed and the bold nature of the play.

2. A PG going the length of the court right to the rim, straight through the opposing defense with no one able to stop him.

Two national championships with two amazing finishes.

[greybeard]

Not ready. The guy was charging at him with the ball in his stick. How could Rogers have been caught off guard. Nope, he was frozen. Why? The Duke kid made a great play. Rogers had to think bounce and had to stay down. Just like in basketball, a defender can stay down so much that he can't move. That was Rogers becuase the Duke kid gave no tell. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

By the way, ND's defense kept Duke's best from seriously challenging Rogers all game, that would be Crotty and the other guy, we'll call him Q. 20 beat him with two incredibly well-placed shots down and away from Roger's stick-side, shots that came from up high and over-the-top deliveries that gave Rogers no chance. The next to the last goal was the most open look Duke had all day, came off a blown defensive switch, one guy switched to the screener, the screener's defender stayed at home. You give a shooter that much space from like 15 and he'll kill you which T did.

I thought that Rogers did well in the goal but that his defenders kept Duke's potent offense away from the spots that they like best. Nearly everything that Duke shot, except for the three mentioned above, and one come-from behind goal by Howell on which the defender somehow got lost, I mean he was nowhere in sight, was contested, and hotly.

Rogers did really well on the three successive shots in a flurry in front of the goal in the 4th quarter, but neither of the first two had anything on them and the third simply was not on goal. Rogers did well not to over commit early on the first two shots, but they were not the best shots that someone that close could produce. Again, the ND defenders left Duke's shooters with little time and room to maneuver and had them rushing even when they perhaps might have had a tad more time, as in the flurry in front of the goal.

To me, ND's three defenders and no 28 were awesome athletes with real size, real smarts for the game, and tremendous, tremendous focus. They to me were what kept ND in that contest, that allowed them to give ND a real chance to win. Rogers did his job well, but those four guys to me were the story on the other side of the ball.

Player of the game, in my mind a very difficult choice, but I'd have to say it was the defender or a mid on the left side of Duke's defense. I think his number might have been 35. Or maybe it was a collection of guys on that side. He, they, kept 28 at bay in the second half when they needed to, kept ND from getting to the middle or busting lose going right on a charge, and man did they cause ND guys to put the thing on the floor and then outfight ND for it time and again, at least at crucial times as I saw it. Those turnovers cost ND because that is so not their game, and I think had them a tad scared, tentative, going down the stretch, the last 10 minutes.

I'm not hatin on Rogers, but I thought that Duke's defense, particularly left of the goal, that was the story.

[MB in MD]

After watching two replays of the game,and it gets better every time,it is obvious that there is no shot that goes in most of the time against Rodgers.
He stuffed several of the best scorers in college lacrosse throughout the semi and final games from closer-in despite the attacker's dazzling moves.

Costabile had not scored a goal the entire season before the NCAA tourney. He had taken only 5 shots w/o a goal during the regular season. He was always a pass-first player.
Rodgers, having gone over the scouting report, would have been aware of that fact.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)



I'm with Blueprofessor for the first part. While for most pieces I defer to Greybeard"s lacrosse knowledge (and have enjoyed reading his posts), I really I don't think the ND defense forced Duke exclusively into bad shots--yes, it limited opportunities and cut off plays that, against other defenses, led to open scoring chances. But if some of the shots were a mite too fine it was Rogers himself forcing them to be that way. He did the same thing to Cornell and to MD before Duke in the tourney. Sure, some of the saves were routine because the shots were routine, but there were enough of the spectacular variety that I still say he made OT even possible for his team.

As to Blue's second point, here I differ. Though Costabile had no goals in the regular season he did the same thing to UNC and UVa, and surely the ND coaches would have pointed this out.

And finally, back to my original post where I used the word "terrified", which some took issue with. Of course a 6'4 250 lb goalie isn't terrified of anything. But CJ charging at him most definitely put him out of his comfort zone; dealing with that scenario was not in the big robot's program. And I say robot with all due respect.

[77devil]

Just watched parts of the UVA game. Besides seeing myself in the crowd :D, I watched Costabile score a similar goal to the championship game winner that I hadn't realized while watching live. With Duke leading 9-8, he comes in from the wing on the faceoff, scoops the ball off the ground at midfield and takes it all the way to the goal. Not quite the straight charge to beat ND but quite similar.

I wonder how it influenced his decision/instincts on the final play?

[MCFinARL]

Not ready. The guy was charging at him with the ball in his stick. How could Rogers have been caught off guard. Nope, he was frozen. Why? The Duke kid made a great play. Rogers had to think bounce and had to stay down. Just like in basketball, a defender can stay down so much that he can't move. That was Rogers becuase the Duke kid gave no tell. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

By the way, ND's defense kept Duke's best from seriously challenging Rogers all game, that would be Crotty and the other guy, we'll call him Q. 20 beat him with two incredibly well-placed shots down and away from Roger's stick-side, shots that came from up high and over-the-top deliveries that gave Rogers no chance. The next to the last goal was the most open look Duke had all day, came off a blown defensive switch, one guy switched to the screener, the screener's defender stayed at home. You give a shooter that much space from like 15 and he'll kill you which T did.

I thought that Rogers did well in the goal but that his defenders kept Duke's potent offense away from the spots that they like best. Nearly everything that Duke shot, except for the three mentioned above, and one come-from behind goal by Howell on which the defender somehow got lost, I mean he was nowhere in sight, was contested, and hotly.

Rogers did really well on the three successive shots in a flurry in front of the goal in the 4th quarter, but neither of the first two had anything on them and the third simply was not on goal. Rogers did well not to over commit early on the first two shots, but they were not the best shots that someone that close could produce. Again, the ND defenders left Duke's shooters with little time and room to maneuver and had them rushing even when they perhaps might have had a tad more time, as in the flurry in front of the goal.

To me, ND's three defenders and no 28 were awesome athletes with real size, real smarts for the game, and tremendous, tremendous focus. They to me were what kept ND in that contest, that allowed them to give ND a real chance to win. Rogers did his job well, but those four guys to me were the story on the other side of the ball.

Player of the game, in my mind a very difficult choice, but I'd have to say it was the defender or a mid on the left side of Duke's defense. I think his number might have been 35. Or maybe it was a collection of guys on that side. He, they, kept 28 at bay in the second half when they needed to, kept ND from getting to the middle or busting lose going right on a charge, and man did they cause ND guys to put the thing on the floor and then outfight ND for it time and again, at least at crucial times as I saw it. Those turnovers cost ND because that is so not their game, and I think had them a tad scared, tentative, going down the stretch, the last 10 minutes.

I'm not hatin on Rogers, but I thought that Duke's defense, particularly left of the goal, that was the story.

35 would be Parker McKee, a second-team All-American and a fine defenseman. There's also number 37, Mike Manley, a third-team All-American who was named to the All-Tournament team. McKee had 4 ground balls on Monday and Manley 3, but neither is credited officially with a caused turnover (Costabile had two and a few other players each had one). I'm not sure who you were watching but I'd agree they all did a good job.

You may be interested to hear what Rodgers had to say about the winning goal: (from insidelacrosse.com) “You don’t really know what you are going to get. They are coming at you with a 6-foot pole and they can choose to go low or high. We had two guys chasing back on that last play and that isn’t what a goalie wants to see. Our game wasn’t lost on one play though; it’s lost throughout the game.”

[greybeard]

I'm with Blueprofessor for the first part. While for most pieces I defer to Greybeard"s lacrosse knowledge (and have enjoyed reading his posts), I really I don't think the ND defense forced Duke exclusively into bad shots--yes, it limited opportunities and cut off plays that, against other defenses, led to open scoring chances. But if some of the shots were a mite too fine it was Rogers himself forcing them to be that way. He did the same thing to Cornell and to MD before Duke in the tourney. Sure, some of the saves were routine because the shots were routine, but there were enough of the spectacular variety that I still say he made OT even possible for his team.

As to Blue's second point, here I differ. Though Costabile had no goals in the regular season he did the same thing to UNC and UVa, and surely the ND coaches would have pointed this out.

And finally, back to my original post where I used the word "terrified", which some took issue with. Of course a 6'4 250 lb goalie isn't terrified of anything. But CJ charging at him most definitely put him out of his comfort zone; dealing with that scenario was not in the big robot's program. And I say robot with all due respect.

Maybe I didn't watch Duke that carefully, not the case but I'll allow that perhaps, but I was at the Cornell game, sat behind to the left side of the goal, and I can tell you (1) Cornell's all america attackman was completely shut down by 35, the shots that he got on goal were from terrible angles and had nothing on them and could only have been on goal in a tiny space inside the short side which is where Rogers logically was waiting.

No Cornell guy got to pull the trigger from between the hash marks and most all the shots were rushed with a body either flying at or leaning on the shooter. The only guy who got inside the defense was 26, Cornell's Q., and he did it only maybe 3 times, scoring twice and getting nothing the third time.

Lang, the sole mid with size and speed and a hold over from last year's team, got a rocket off for the first goal on a great charge but after that I do not think a Cornell guy beat anybody on a dodge from out front the rest of the way. Not once.

Rogers made saves but almost all were from terrible angles and the rest had nothing on them. ND's defenders, including its defensive mids, manned up and needed no help. Occasionally, Cornell's clever passing game was finished by a close-in move by no. 6, who had two nice goals from in close.

Most all of Cornell's shots from decent spots were blocked before they ever got to Rogers, and, like I said, the others were from guys whom I'd have to believe the TV announcers were saying "never got their hands free."

ND's defenders were that good playing man up defense.

Duke did somewhat better than Cornell but only marginally so. The real difference was Duke's defense, which took away the middle of the field from the ND attack, took away charges down the right side of the offensive zone, and made ND shoot from terrible angles all day. The biggest difference came from that, after closing off dodges or passes to between the hash marks, Duke defenders particularly on the left side made ND put it on the floor and then took the ball away. Like I said, that seemed to happen a couple, three or four times in the last quarter which to me made Duke dominant. At least one of those takeaways came on a failed clear, which is a real back breaker because it kept a tired defense on the field sucking wind, while Duke's defenders stayed fresh.

Cornell lost the manto-man match ups on both sides of the ball; Duke didn't and in fact got the better of the defensive play in the crucial fourth quarter, at least as I saw it. And, like I said, Duke's goalie handled a couple of shots that had real zip on them in the fourth quarter, shots that were hotter than anything that Rogers was asked to handle except for the tying goal which went through the five hole (between his legs).

ND played awesome ball all weekend'; it was outplayed defensively in the crucial fourth quarter in my opinion, which was where the Championship was really won. Like everyone who is a fan of this game knows, playing Championship ball does not make it so, but in this case it did.

I do not think that ND had it in it to hang with Duke in OT. I had exactly the same feeling when Cornell lost to Princeton in the Ivy Championship. Princeton had come back on Cornell, went ahead, Cornell managed to tie in regulation and limp into OT. It won the faceoff, Cornell's all america tried to win it on a full court charge but got caught, the ball turned over, and Princeton came back down and scored on a run out, all of which took less than a minute. I think ND was done, and that the shot that put them away reflected who hd won the last quarter in Championship fashion and by how much.

[burnspbesq]

Number 35 for ND is Kevin Ridgway, a junior defender. He was tremendous all weekend. If you shut down Panell on Saturday and Crotty on Monday, you have earned major respect. I heard Coach Corrigan say that Ridgway tends to be overlooked by A-A selectors because he's not a great stick-handler, all he does is shut down the other team's biggest offensive threat. He's certainly not going to fly under the radar any more.

[blueprofessor]

You may be interested to hear what Rodgers had to say about the winning goal: (from insidelacrosse.com) “You don’t really know what you are going to get. They are coming at you with a 6-foot pole and they can choose to go low or high. We had two guys chasing back on that last play and that isn’t what a goalie wants to see. Our game wasn’t lost on one play though; it’s lost throughout the game.”

I enjoy the variety of opinions on this board, especially from so many who are true supporters of Duke lacrosse here and elsewhere.

Roywhite's comment is instructive and he uses an appropriate adjective I was searching for:bold. Roywhite wrote that Costabile "surprised them with...the bold nature of the play."
MCinFarl's post included Rodger's own words above. A lot was going on and he was noticing much, while thinking that if the shot were to come it could be high or low.

As brilliant as he is, Rodgers, in the face of surprise by a bold move and his indecision of whether a shot is coming and whether it will be low or high, did not appear ready. That is merely one opinion, but it is supported by the circumstances, especially the audacity of an unexpected attacker and the sudden nature of that attack. As Virgil wrote, "Fortune favors the bold."

As far as Rodgers' play in the tourney, he obviously impressed those knowledgeable people who award the Most Outstanding Player of the tourney with the high quality and the wickedly high rate of saves against formidable opponents. Rodgers,losing goalie= MOP.

Best regards--Blueprofessor of Ethics:)

[MB in MD]

Most all of Cornell's shots from decent spots were blocked before they ever got to Rogers, and, like I said, the others were from guys whom I'd have to believe the TV announcers were saying "never got their hands free."



Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I read somewhere that after Cornell's first quick goal they had 8 more shots in the first quarter, every one of which was on goal and saved! I don't remember them that well, and didn't go back to watch the game, and maybe they were weak shots because of the defense, but you would think that if that were the case there would have been some misses. After that, I agree, Cornell's offense was not nearly as effective, but how much of that was because of ND's defensive adjustments, and how much because the goalie made them squeeze their sticks a bit tighter I really can't say.

Not that NDs defense wasn't excellent. They held our shots way down and I remember a lot of our same dodges and picks that led to scoring opportunities against UVa coming up empty against ND. But it sure is easier to play suffocating defense when you know what you have behind you.

[greybeard]

I enjoy the variety of opinions on this board, especially from so many who are true supporters of Duke lacrosse here and elsewhere.

Roywhite's comment is instructive and he uses an appropriate adjective I was searching for:bold. Roywhite wrote that Costabile "surprised them with...the bold nature of the play."
MCinFarl's post included Rodger's own words above. A lot was going on and he was noticing much, while thinking that if the shot were to come it could be high or low.

As brilliant as he is, Rodgers, in the face of surprise by a bold move and his indecision of whether a shot is coming and whether it will be low or high, did not appear ready. That is merely one opinion, but it is supported by the circumstances, especially the audacity of an unexpected attacker and the sudden nature of that attack. As Virgil wrote, "Fortune favors the bold."

As far as Rodgers' play in the tourney, he obviously impressed those knowledgeable people who award the Most Outstanding Player of the tourney with the high quality and the wickedly high rate of saves against formidable opponents. Rodgers,losing goalie= MOP.

Best regards--Blueprofessor of Ethics:)

I enjoy so much your posts on this and other matters I really shouldn't quibble, but Rodgers did not say he was surprised that the kid shot, just that he couldn't decide "high or low."

That exact play happens pretty frequently in lax, when a faceoff guy with offensive skills comes clean with the ball going to the other side's goal. I think we saw the same play at least several times in this tournament.

The "experts" in this sport are all promoters of the run-and-shoot game; that is where ESPN, and therefore the money, is. You sometimes can access these experts on insidelacrosse.com. Ask any of them if they have ever seen a defender take on two first-team All Americans like Cornell's 3 and Duke's Crotty without a stitch of help and shut both out? Ask him if they've ever seen a defense play so effectively with no "slides," that is, no help on the ball to speak of thoughout a tournament. Ask them whether they have ever seen a defense knock down as many shots on goal as in the Cornell game.

I'm not taking anything away from Rodgers, but the strength of that team was its defense, starting not with Rodgers but with the 3 in the back and mids who out front stayed in front of their guys no matter what.

What are the heads to make of that. What normal lax speak, that is a relatively new deal, talking one's way through a lax game instead of just watching and soaking in amazing play, can do justice to that type play and when do you run out of words. You say the ND defenders and defensive mids stay in front of their guys and do not slide and boom goes the dynamite, you're done.

Crotty was the hands-on choice for the MVP until the last game when 35 shut him down. What to do then? How to explain that all your expert spots about how to dodge (well done by Danowski, by the way) or shoot (not so well I thought) has no meaning in the game ND created.

That left these guys with the need to create a single hero, and they chose Rodgers because there were stats to back them up. If I chose one player on ND, it was 35, who played the most impressive defense in any sport I have ever seen game after game shutting down the best scorer/assist attackers in the nation. But, he don't do that unless they other defenders play without needing slides, which is a game with which they are unfamiliar.

So, Rodgers played well on a ND team that dictated play against the best team in the nation, at least in this tournament which is a pretty rigorous test. In this tournament the MVP had to come from the team that won it all. I'd give it to all of them that were on that field that fourth quarter, which is when the Champion of the tournament clearly emerged.

[blueprofessor]

I enjoy so much your posts on this and other matters I really shouldn't quibble, but Rodgers did not say he was surprised that the kid shot, just that he couldn't decide "high or low."


Thanks, but I never quoted Rodgers as saying he was "surprised."

Rodgers did indicate a lot was going on and many factors ,including CJ's bold move ( appropriately characterized by roywhite), the sudden jeopardy seconds after face-off, whether an unexpected attacker would shoot or pass, and Rodgers' fatigue (over 100 degrees on the field--recall what Lombardi said about the effects of fatigue) could have led to indecision, rendering him not completely ready for that heater.

I am always impressed by the computer-fast calculations of goalies; sometimes there is a short circuit!

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[greybeard]

Thanks, but I never quoted Rodgers as saying he was "surprised."

Rodgers did indicate a lot was going on and many factors ,including CJ's bold move ( appropriately characterized by roywhite), the sudden jeopardy seconds after face-off, whether an unexpected attacker would shoot or pass, and Rodgers' fatigue (over 100 degrees on the field--recall what Lombardi said about the effects of fatigue) could have led to indecision, rendering him not completely ready for that heater.

I am always impressed by the computer-fast calculations of goalies; sometimes there is a short circuit!

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

On a fast break, you have the ball you go to the middle and if a defender does not come out and stop you, you take it to the goal. I don't care the sport. Basketball, hockey, soccer, lacrosse.

The "best" shot if you are a long pole in that situation is down. Why? Because down puts it on goal no matter whether the ball goes where you want or not. You ain't missing the ground. Also, you can shoot down but the goalie has to wait because he might see it waist high.

So, I'm sticking with my original statement. Rodgers was thinking down, he waited for the kid's tell to determine when to commit and how far down, and was incapable of reacting up. A daring play by the offensive guy but not for the reasons you suggest. "Up" and it gets away a tad early and it goes three feet over the goal. Risky. One on nothing on the goalie and in front of 44 thou in the stands and on behalf of not just your current teammates, but all of Duke lax for this latest era, and you whiff when you are one-on-one. You risk that and make a play that Rodgers had no chance on, because he has to defend down and be focused on when the beginning of the delivery will tell him something about the bounce.

If the kid gives the ball up with no one coming off either of the guys set on either side of the net he is, for all the lax world, a choker, a kid who at the moment of truth was unwilling to make the play that the sport, as I said every sport, requires. You take it to the hole, to the net. He did, making the most risk/reward choice of a shot that there was and the reward was a championship. Heck of a play. He stone cold beat the tournament MVP by making the choice that the MVP had to give him and had to bet that he would not have the stones to try.

Like I said, my friend Arthur had been hearing about the kid from across the pond, that would be Long Island Sound, well before his high school days were up, had heard he was really something. Turns out he is.

[DukieInKansas]

I just have to say that seeing this thread every day just makes me smile!

Thank you to the entire team and staff for a fantastic season and representing the University so well. Congratulations!

[greybeard]

35 would be Parker McKee, a second-team All-American and a fine defenseman. There's also number 37, Mike Manley, a third-team All-American who was named to the All-Tournament team. McKee had 4 ground balls on Monday and Manley 3, but neither is credited officially with a caused turnover (Costabile had two and a few other players each had one). I'm not sure who you were watching but I'd agree they all did a good job. ”

Thanks for the info. Who was it who ran down a ND guy after ND had turned Duke over in Duke's offensive zone and turned ND over (I think the ball went out of bounds) in the fourth quarter? I thought that that was a huge play. Also, I thought I saw 35 just before or just after that play come up with a ground ball and take off with it, not only clearing to the offensive end but putting real pressure on the ND defenders.

On another point, ND's mids were forceful with the ball and Cornell could not keep them out of the middle. Duke's mids took inside positions on these guys when they came up the side and would not give up the middle. At the same time, they kept the mids from charging the outside lane for a shot. At the same time, it seemed that the long sticks made ND's attackers go real wide and then still work hard in order to receive a pass. Then, the Duke mids did a wonderful job defending against from-behind feeds to the middle of the field, and gave ND very few open looks even from very wide angles.

None of these things were easy. From watching ND against Cornell, these are the keys to ND's offensive game and they grind with forceful offensive players until one of them becomes available. Cornell did a credible job but in the end seemed to wear down and give up something on many possessions. Duke just hung tough, causing ND to play catch and then take something weak because they could not get anything that they wanted.

Thanks for the details. I thought I saw more forced mishandles by ND then there were.

By the way, Crotty to his credit did not force anything but trusted others to initiate offense if he didn't see something open for him. His pass to Hurley that lead to a goal was a tad behind Hurley but put it in a place where only Hurley could catch it and had to use all his skill to make the catch and convert. (It just occurred to me that that might have been a goal in the first half against UVa, but what's the diff, right.) That to me is when passing-catching games are at their best. When the passer sees the possible which asks for the best from a receiver who then makes a play that is less defined by the current connotation of "athletic" but is very much what sport is all about, using one's mind to see the possible, create the movements that allow for the connection (reception) and then go to the advantage that two ball players saw and created almost as one.

I am looking forward to Crotty's acceptance speech when he receives the Tewaartan. He handles himself well.

[blueprofessor]

Who was it who ran down a ND guy after ND had turned Duke over in Duke's offensive zone and turned ND over (I think the ball went out of bounds) in the fourth quarter?

Costabile,at about the 2:15 mark in the 4th quarter, made a great trail check on a ND player. Duke regained possession. Very big play.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[4decadedukie]

I am looking forward to Crotty's acceptance speech when he receives the Tewaartan. He handles himself well.

It is my understanding that the Tewaaraton Trophy will be presented tomorrow night; however, I have seen no fromal announcement that Ned Crotty will receive this year's men's award. I believe he deserves it (and my armature analysis of the finalists suggests he is the favorite). Do you have any definitive information?

[blueprofessor]

It is my understanding that the Tewaaraton Trophy will be presented tomorrow night; however, I have seen no fromal announcement that Ned Crotty will receive this year's men's award. I believe he deserves it (and my armature analysis of the finalists suggests he is the favorite). Do you have any definitive information?

No info released yet. It is customary for all finalists to be invited. The ceremony will be held at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, which has an exhibit on the Indian roots of the game. Tickets were still available 1 1/2 weeks ago,

Best-- Blueprofessor:)

[roywhite]

No info released yet. It is customary for all finalists to be invited. The ceremony will be held at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, which has an exhibit on the Indian roots of the game. Tickets were still available 1 1/2 weeks ago,

Best-- Blueprofessor:)

nice touch

[blueprofessor]

nice touch

The winner is announced at the banquet.

No defenseman has ever won--only attackmen and middies.

Without fallout from the NCAA's 5 year ruling, Crotty would be a strong favorite, as 2 of the 5 finalists are pure defensive players.

Crotty has credentials based on a great 2010 season,as well as an outstanding career. He also was the only one to get to the championship game in which he had only 1 assist.

However, coaches vote and we know the sentiments of opinion makers like the UVA and Hopkins coaches.

Best-- Blueprofessor:):)

[MCFinARL]

Costabile,at about the 2:15 mark in the 4th quarter, made a great trail check on a ND player. Duke regained possession. Very big play.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

Thanks! I thought I remembered it was Costabile--it was a huge play--but I was too excited/anxious/heat-exhausted at the time to be sure that my memory was correct.

[greybeard]

It is my understanding that the Tewaaraton Trophy will be presented tomorrow night; however, I have seen no fromal announcement that Ned Crotty will receive this year's men's award. I believe he deserves it (and my armature analysis of the finalists suggests he is the favorite). Do you have any definitive information?

Nope. But it usually goes to the nominee who is on the Championship team.

Last year was an exception, when Lowe's award winner Max Seibald received the award, as everyone expected he would going in, even though Matt Abbott from Syracuse, the Champion, was a total class act and terrific lax player and teammate.

Crotty is in my view a shoe in for the award. His body of work over a stellar career alone argues for it, given Duke's Championship season. More particularly, Crotty is a multi-year nominee whose steady, generous and prolific play as this team's quarterback, especially considering how Duke came together and gained momentum through the second half of the season to become a team that could and did take on and beat the best on the Big Stage, well, let's just say I'd be shocked. I really don't think that there is any chance that I will be.

[BD80]

Costabile,at about the 2:15 mark in the 4th quarter, made a great trail check on a ND player. Duke regained possession. Very big play.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

It was a great check at a crucial moment.

At first it appeared to me that, after the check, he was closest to the sidelines shielding the ND player from the ball and that he flipped the ball between his legs and off the ND player's leg and it rolled out of bounds. Kind of like a common basketball play. Spectacular play in lax.

I think a commentator noted that Costabile had the clock on his side, that ND had 20 seconds to clear midfield. So instead of trying to knock to ball out of bounds off the ND player, he was just trying to keep from being pushed out of bounds with possesion (which would turn it over), and thus milk the clock to force a turnover. Still a great play.

[blueprofessor]

It is my understanding that the Tewaaraton Trophy will be presented tomorrow night; however, I have seen no fromal announcement that Ned Crotty will receive this year's men's award. I believe he deserves it (and my armature analysis of the finalists suggests he is the favorite). Do you have any definitive information?

Okay, just got feedback from a son of friends who plays D-1 lax and another who will be transferring to play (at a D-1 school) next year.

They say,w/o hesitation, that Ned will win it---pointing out that he is a Duke captain,team-oriented, good guy (UVA's Clausen complains it is difficult to dislike him because he won't answer smack with smack), nation's leader in points and assists,very solid through the tourney, the guy that made the great assist to Quinzani for the game winner in the UVA game, a leader of the Duke team that finally won it all, and a senior who used to be a middie (the last year Greer and Danowski played together). All the lacrosse world loves middies.

Bet the house, uh, garage, on it!

Best regards--Blueprofessor:D

[greybeard]

I was gonna go last year to see my boy Max win it (same high school and college) but got hung up at work and didn't make it. I'm almost tempted to slide by tomorrow evening, but the evening belongs to you guys in Blue.

If you're in town, Blue Professor, take my advice and go. After missing it last year, I ended up deciding to travel to Annapolis Md. when the Outlaws were playing just to pay my respects to Max's family, who I figured would be there and were. No, I really did. Sports, they make kids of us all.

Congrats to all my Duke friends. It should be a great evening--a way to celebrate a Championship and the accomplishments of a young man in a sport still driven almost entirely by the love of playing. Cheers!

[4decadedukie]

Okay, just got feedback from a son of friends who plays D-1 lax and another who will be transferring to play (at a D-1 school) next year.

They say,w/o hesitation, that Ned will win it---pointing out that he is a Duke captain,team-oriented, good guy (UVA's Clausen complains it is difficult to dislike him because he won't answer smack with smack), nation's leader in points and assists,very solid through the tourney, the guy that made the great assist to Quinzani for the game winner in the UVA game, a leader of the Duke team that finally won it all, and a senior who used to be a middie (the last year Greer and Danowski played together). All the lacrosse world loves middies.

Bet the house, uh, garage, on it!

Best regards--Blueprofessor:D

I agree with every word; the reasons I thought Ned was "close to a certainty." Warm regards.

[burnspbesq]

Anyone know what the story is with Sean Brady, who was projected to be our starting goaltender this year? I thought I had read at the beginning of the season that he was academically ineligible, but more recent stories have said that he has been "dismissed" from the team.

Is he still in school? Is this one of those mysterious, Lindsey Harding-type deals where he did something that nobody wants to talk about, but he'll be back in the program next year? Or is he gone for good?

[MCFinARL]

Anyone know what the story is with Sean Brady, who was projected to be our starting goaltender this year? I thought I had read at the beginning of the season that he was academically ineligible, but more recent stories have said that he has been "dismissed" from the team.

Is he still in school? Is this one of those mysterious, Lindsey Harding-type deals where he did something that nobody wants to talk about, but he'll be back in the program next year? Or is he gone for good?

I don't have any inside info, but it was reported in Jan. that he was suspended from the team for the season for "conduct unbecoming a member of the team." No announcement was made about whether he would be in school (which might violate his FERPA rights?). Later I saw a quote from Danowski that said he might be allowed to come back, though it didn't sound like any sort of guarantee. You can still find his contact info in the online Duke directory, but I don't imagine that necessarily means he has been in school this semester.

Based on my kids' knowledge (happily, not their personal experience--I'm a Duke parent), things that can get somebody suspended from Duke (the school, not a team) for a semester include plagiarism/cheating, DUI on campus, and maybe being caught with drugs on campus (though the person they knew who was suspended for that was, I think, a repeat offender). But there could be others, and I have no clue what happened with Sean Brady. Whatever it was, I'm guessing it didn't involve outside law enforcement or it probably would have been tracked down and reported after he was dismissed from the team. If he has, in fact, been in school, maybe it was something more team-specific.

[Bluedog]

Crotty officially wins Tewaaraton Trophy! Congrats!

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204954915

[DukieInKansas]

Crotty officially wins Tewaaraton Trophy! Congrats!

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204954915

YEAH! Congratulations, Ned!

[blueprofessor]

Crotty officially wins Tewaaraton Trophy! Congrats!

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204954915
Well-deserved, Ned Crotty!:D

The entire Tewaaraton Award Ceremony was taped for television and will premiere on CBS College Sports on Thursday, June 10 at 7:30 p.m. EST.

Best regards-- Blueprofessor:)

[4decadedukie]

Deeply felt congratulations to Ned Crotty, obviously for winning the Tewaaraton, but more important for being the precise type of leader, student-athlete, undergraduate, and all around fine human being we are all very proud to have as a Duke alumnus. This is one instance where selection committee got it right.

[greybeard]

Deeply felt congratulations to Ned Crotty, obviously for winning the Tewaaraton, but more important for being the precise type of leader, student-athlete, undergraduate, and all around fine human being we are all very proud to have as a Duke alumnus. This is one instance where selection committee got it right.

Interesting, is the something behind this beyond a slip of the pen?

[buddy]

Brady was not in school last semester, and it was not the result of a law enforcement matter. 'Nuff said.

Congratulations to Ned. Many thought he hurt his chances last year when he announced he would return for a 5th year. (The team's wipe out in the semis didn't help.) He played his game all year, including in the final when he couldn't get much going, but was content to let other guys (Schoeffel, Howell, Turri) carry the load. Duke's offense was so loaded this year that it was impossible to kill it by cutting off one or two guys. Great ending to a memorable season and career.

[MCFinARL]

Brady was not in school last semester, and it was not the result of a law enforcement matter. 'Nuff said.


Agreed--thanks. I already felt bad about speculating on possible reasons without having any information. Next time I don't know anything (likely to be often) I'll remember to keep my mouth shut. :(

[4decadedukie]

Interesting, is the something behind this beyond a slip of the pen?

In my opinion, the recent Men’s Lacrosse All American selections were not entirely "insightful."

[blueprofessor]

In my opinion, the recent Men’s Lacrosse All American selections were not entirely "insightful."

Yes, not insightful with Bitter taking 1st team all-America over Quinzani (second team) and the omission from any team or honorable mention designation for Howell and Turri.

IIRC, Syracuse placed 10 players.

Ridiculous.
Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[roywhite]

Question...what sort of professional lacrosse opportunities are available for top players like Crotty and Quinzani after graduation? Enough to make a living or just a sideline?

Don't know specificially player by player, but I get the impression that this year's lax seniors have achieved well in the classroom and have good opportunities job-wise and grad school. Just curious what's available if they want to stay connected to lacrosse.

[CoBlueDevil]

Question...what sort of professional lacrosse opportunities are available for top players like Crotty and Quinzani after graduation? Enough to make a living or just a sideline?

Im pretty sure Quinzani has a job lined up with JP Morgan or something in NY city. The announcers kept mentioning it during the final four.

And I would bet that Crotty is good enough to go pro if he so desired. Not sure how handsomely professional lacrosse players are paid but that probably is an option for him.

[Bluedog]

Question...what sort of professional lacrosse opportunities are available for top players like Crotty and Quinzani after graduation? Enough to make a living or just a sideline?

Don't know specificially player by player, but I get the impression that this year's lax seniors have achieved well in the classroom and have good opportunities job-wise and grad school. Just curious what's available if they want to stay connected to lacrosse.

Being an average player in the MLL is not close to enough to make a good living. Luckily, it's only a weekend job during the summer. The players get paid by the league PER GAME with all expenses paid for airfare/hotel. Most players don't actually live in the city that the team they play for is. They are only allowed to practice once a week with the team (Friday before the game). In other words, pretty much everybody has a full time job on top of the MLL. You do get a team bonus for winning the whole league (and extra money for making playoffs since paid per game), which I think is split among everybody. A lot of players work for lacrosse companies as their full time job such as Warrior and Brine. A select few have endorsement deals with them to bring in extra cash. And some play in the NLL in the winter, but a lot of the top players don't as some consider it more the XFL of lacrosse (more dangerous, showy, not as classic, etc.) Being a professional lacrosse player is not a lucrative career. You do it for the love of the game.

[greybeard]

Question...what sort of professional lacrosse opportunities are available for top players like Crotty and Quinzani after graduation? Enough to make a living or just a sideline?

Don't know specificially player by player, but I get the impression that this year's lax seniors have achieved well in the classroom and have good opportunities job-wise and grad school. Just curious what's available if they want to stay connected to lacrosse.

Pro Lacrosse players, except probably for a very, very, very elite few, Paul Rabil might actually be the list, but maybe guys like Danowski and Cornell's Max Seibald can be included too, cannot come close to making a living by playing. I think that they are on a lower pay scale than entry level MLS soccer players, which is pretty darn low. In addition, I doubt that there are any benefits attached (that would include no healthcare benefits of course) or that salaries, such as thet are, are in anyway guaranteed for the average player.

Championship weekend, I had a brief chat with former Cornell star John Glynn, which fortified that impression.

In MLS, entry level players often coach club teams, run clinics and hold down off season jobs to get by. I recollect that, going into this season, MLS and the players union were trying to bang out a new agreement with little success and that entry-level issues presented a huge impediment.

[Bluedog]

Just to back this up with some figures. MLL salary is reportedly less than $18,000/yr.


He and his teammates on the Rochester Rattlers of MLL make less than $18,000. In the National Lacrosse League, the top salary is about $25,000.

http://www.dailyorange.com/2.8655/professional-lacrosse-is-hardly-glamorous-1.1246124


With an average league salary of about $14,000, and first-year players making as little as $400 a game [...]

http://www.seattlepi.com/othersports/291498_lacrosse08.html

[MCFinARL]

As other posters have noted, most MLL players have another job. Some are coaches, some have non-sports jobs. I think there is a little bit of a lacrosse old boy network on Wall Street, and some of the guys who get jobs there may have flexible enough schedules to meet their MLL commitments (if you have to fly to another city for Friday practice, you'd probably need to take Fridays off.)

FYI, Quint Kessenich of ESPNU/Inside Lacrosse projects Ned Crotty to go first in the MLL draft this weekend (which would put him with Chicago) and Max Quinzani to be drafted third, by Boston (a good fit both because they apparently need another attack and because the team likes to build fan interest by using local players). Both players have said they want to play pro lacrosse--in fact, in his Tewaaraton interview Ned said he'd like to make a career in lacrosse (which would probably have to mean coaching eventually). But presumably they will both be doing something else as well. For the next couple of months, of course, Ned will be playing on the US Team.

[greybeard]

Yes, not insightful with Bitter taking 1st team all-America over Quinzani (second team) and the omission from any team or honorable mention designation for Howell and Turri.

IIRC, Syracuse placed 10 players.

Ridiculous.
Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

People were pretty surprised when Army took Syracuse out. Reminiscent of other surprising early exits from tournaments in lax and other sports. Arny played a spectacular game and Syracuse was terrible. I really am not familiar with them except for the defender named White who was all that, Jamison for obvious reasons, a terrific goalie, and some mids who got an awful lot pre season hype. Their entire defense was considered first rate going into the tournament, when everybody had Syracuse and Va, 1-2 or 2-1. You sure that they weren't as loaded as the chosers say? Me, I don't have a clue.

Duke did start off terribly this year, recovered midway such that some experts had them playing as the top team in the country as the regular season ended, but then they wobbled in the ACC tournament. Such things cost sometimes.

I thought the reference was to prior Tewaarton choices. As long as nobody was casting stones at my boy Max, have at em.

[blueprofessor]

People were pretty surprised when Army took Syracuse out. Reminiscent of other surprising early exits from tournaments in lax and other sports. Arny played a spectacular game and Syracuse was terrible. I really am not familiar with them except for the defender named White who was all that, Jamison for obvious reasons, a terrific goalie, and some mids who got an awful lot pre season hype. Their entire defense was considered first rate going into the tournament, when everybody had Syracuse and Va, 1-2 or 2-1. You sure that they weren't as loaded as the chosers say? Me, I don't have a clue.

Duke did start off terribly this year, recovered midway such that some experts had them playing as the top team in the country as the regular season ended, but then they wobbled in the ACC tournament. Such things cost sometimes.

I thought the reference was to prior Tewaarton choices. As long as nobody was casting stones at my boy Max, have at em.

4decadedukie was referring specifically to the all-A selections:"In my opinion, the recent Men’s Lacrosse All American selections were not entirely 'insightful'."
We will get to Max and whether he deserved the T last year next week! Heh,heh.

Best--Blueprofessor

[greybeard]

I think there is a little bit of a lacrosse old boy network on Wall Street.) m.

Glynn offered up during our little chat that he was into fixed-income securities.

Even when you're successful there ain't no money in it. My cousin was head coach for a team at the University of Arizona for 30 years, got the mayor of Tuson to hold an Honor Lacrosse Day, was a founding member of the West Coast Lacrosse League which named their MVP award after him, coached one of the teams that played an exhibition in I think it was the '95 Olympics, played in the first senior World Championship for USA, and I don't think earned a nickle doing any of it until U of A started playing him this year to lure him out of retirement to resurrect their sinking program which he has begun to do, making the WCLL Tournament for the first time since he retired. Some things you do for love.

Course, he ran camps and coached some club teams too, but mainly it was real estate and modeling (somebody needed the looks in the family, no).

Hopefully, Ned can parlay his Tewaraaton and the National Appearances into some side money. If he was Jewish, my boy Arthur would get him all the bookings he wanted signing pictures and what not at bar mitzvahs--you only think I'm kidding.

Professor, don't you even think about coming after my boy Max.

A-A selections a nice. But you guys had a great, great run, culmated by two terrific wins playing wildly different styles and beating two teams which were incredibly tough outs and then your boy gets crowned.

Like the song goes, "They can't take that away from you, no no, they can't take that away from you." Cheers, Greybeard

[DukeSean]

This might be a topic for a new thread, but I'm curious what people's forecast of what MLL will be in 5, 10, 20 years from now. What kind of popularity and TV coverage do you think the sport will ultimately get?

Personally, I love watching lacrosse. Back when I was in HS in TX in the late 90's, lax was just starting to catch on in our state, and I caught the fever too. In fact, our high school varsity and JV coaches were two lax brothers from Duke, Derek and Ross Thompson (I want to say they graduated in early 90's?). Anyways, it seems now that far more private and public schools in the state are fielding much more competitive teams. I think this is just the natural migration of its popularity from East coast to West coast, but these things do take time. It's helpful that commentators spend some time here and there explaining rules and strategies for those viewers new to the sport, but it'll be nice when one day that isn't as necessary anymore.

I, for one, would love to see MLL gain serious traction and become a major pro sport in the US. After all, it is distinctly an (Native) American sport.

[burnspbesq]

Ned, Max, and Parker go 1-3-4 in the first round, to Chicago, Boston, and Long Island respectively. Congratulations, gentlemen.

[greybeard]

This might be a topic for a new thread, but I'm curious what people's forecast of what MLL will be in 5, 10, 20 years from now. What kind of popularity and TV coverage do you think the sport will ultimately get?

I think that the college game is likely to grow substantially, and with it, the pros but not nearly so much.

Last year insidelacrosse.com named the most significant event in the sport Bill Tierney;'s move from Princeton to Denver. This year, outside territory around Durham, the story of stories is ND's emergence. The two presage a nationalization of what has been an eastern seaboard thing.

The game itself is the fastest growing sport in terms of participation in the US. It's appeal is that it is a terrific passing/catching team sport in which you don't have to weigh 3 bills or stand 6'7" plus to be considered a prospect for greatness.

As long as young men of reasonably normal stature have a shot at playing on the highest levels, I think that the big-time sports schools will need to deal themselves in.

I also think that, as the science catches up with just how injurious playing football as it currently is constituted is, and UNC is moving to do that even as we speak, the rules of that game will have to be wound back at least on the college level. Currently, UNC is using specially wired helmets and ensuing cat scans to measure the impact on the brain by helmet to helmet hits in practice that do not produce immediate symptoms that someone has been concussed.

When those results are in, the eyes will begin to open. The real hit will come to the sport when the proverbial "they" use the same technology to measure the impact and effects of hits to the backs or legs of receivers in the air, to quarterbacks on the ground, you know the kind, the ones that cause heads to snap back. Whether those heads hit the ground or not, the brains in them keep on going when the heads themselves are brought to abrupt stops, with the ouches buffered by helmets that do nothing to buffer the force of the brain on skull collisions.

When they start meauring such things, and there is enough of a critical mass charging into the issue of serious brain damage to participants in that sport that I would think that that ship will inexorably move forward, the changes to football on the high school and college level will diminish the fan following that those sports have. Oh, it will still lead the pack, but I think that the fall off will be discernible.

Lacrosse might well pick up on some of the fans that football looses, especially as lacrosse grows to the varsity level in the Big 10, SEC and Pac 10.

The pro sport, I don't know. I do not like the clock, which to me takes away some of the aspects of the game that I can actually relate to--passing and catching with those wild sticks, which looks like terrific fun. Has to be better than trying to hit a five iron, right? So, why speed things up--so more guys shoot more and make more forceful dodges to get looks. I don't know, I get a little dizzy watching. I don't like the product.

Hey, maybe the college lacrosse people will say, "Who needs the NCAA anyway, what have they done for us." Then, they can pay the kids real salaries, the kids who can really play will all get signed by a shoe or equipment company, not just the coaches, the TV revenue can be used, after expenses, to provide bonuses, and college sports can finally be in integrity with what most big time college sports have long been, which would be professional sports mascarading as something else. ;)

[roywhite]

I think that the college game is likely to grow substantially, and with it, the pros but not nearly so much.

Last year insidelacrosse.com named the most significant event in the sport Bill Tierney;'s move from Princeton to Denver. This year, outside territory around Durham, the story of stories is ND's emergence. The two presage a nationalization of what has been an eastern seaboard thing.

The game itself is the fastest growing sport in terms of participation in the US. It's appeal is that it is a terrific passing/catching team sport in which you don't have to weigh 3 bills or stand 6'7" plus to be considered a prospect for greatness.

As long as young men of reasonably normal stature have a shot at playing on the highest levels, I think that the big-time sports schools will need to deal themselves in.



While I don't have your knowledge and appreciation of lacrosse, I do like it, and recognize its growing popularity both from a participant basis and the attendance and popularity of the Final Four weekend.

Isn't growth on the college level constrained by:
Title IX considerations
Tighter athletic budgets in general

Certainly, women's lacrosse programs could be established to balance men's programs, but will schools add scholarship sports to any great extent?

I recognize your point about safety issues in football, but I don't see scholarship reductions in football being likely, as the sport is highly popular and a major revenue producer.

Is lacrosse really likely to grow quickly, or perhaps slowly?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I think the time has come for some sort of a shot clock in college men's lacrosse. I understand that playing keep away in lacrosse is not an easy task, particularly once a stall warning is put in place, but at the top Division 1 level, players should be able to do it. I consider myself more of a fan than the casual viewer, but to increase interest among casual fans, a shot clock is a must. Perhaps set it at a minute or something else relatively conservative. Watching teams play keep away just isn't very compelling. I think most would argue that basketball is much better since the implementation of the shot clock, and lacrosse would be similarly helped.

As suggested above, adding teams is difficult due to Title IX. The growth of women's lacrosse is largely a product of Title IX, but most schools are not in a position to add a men's team without also adding a women's team, and budgets are generally too tight these days to add two fully funded varsity teams. During the final four I was happy to hear more about players from outside the northeastern lacrosse hotbeds, but I just don't think it's realistic to expect a rapid expansion at the college level to other areas of the country.

[4decadedukie]

CrazyNotCrazie's points re costs and Title IX seem well founded to me. However, this creates a real problem -- with no obvious solution -- for the sport. At the secondary school level, lacrosse is almost certain to continue to grow dramatically, as it has during the last years. Currently, team rosters are limited to ~50 (if I remember correctly), which means an average of only 10 (for "red shirters") to 12 vacancies will occur on each of the 263 Division I, II and III NCAA teams; that's only ~2800 new collegiate players annually -- nationally and in all Divisions (note: I premise very few dropouts/academic disqualifications, which is consistent with the sport's collegiate history).

Thus, if the number of high/prep schools that have quality lacrosse programs continues to grow substantially, producing enhanced numbers of potentially excellent college players, while the number of universities that have teams (cost and Title IX, as CrazyNotCrazie suggested) increases at far more modest rates, what does this suggest? I offer three thoughts:
a) Many truly outstanding prospects will not be recruited by the traditionally strong programs (especially in Division I), because the number of coaches able to travel to "distant" high schools is also extremely constrained.
b) This provides a real advantage for candidates from long-established high/prep school lacrosse powers, because Division I coaches and players (current and former) are (and will be) well-connected with these secondary school programs and will receive critical preparatory recruiting input.
c) However, it is likely also to create an opportunity of emerging lacrosse powers (all NCAA Divisions) to recruit superb, winning players from high/prep schools that are not entirely "on the scope" for most big lax collegiate powerhouses, thereby increasing competitiveness.

[roywhite]

c) However, it is likely also to create an opportunity of emerging lacrosse powers (all NCAA Divisions) to recruit superb, winning players from high/prep schools that are not entirely "on the scope" for most big lax collegiate powerhouses, thereby increasing competitiveness.

I believe I read that Duke was only the 8th individual school to win an NCAA title; the sport has been dominated by Syracuse and Johns Hopkins especially.

Having some other schools get good talent and compete for championships sounds positive for the development of the sport.

[MCFinARL]

I think the time has come for some sort of a shot clock in college men's lacrosse. I understand that playing keep away in lacrosse is not an easy task, particularly once a stall warning is put in place, but at the top Division 1 level, players should be able to do it. I consider myself more of a fan than the casual viewer, but to increase interest among casual fans, a shot clock is a must. Perhaps set it at a minute or something else relatively conservative. Watching teams play keep away just isn't very compelling. I think most would argue that basketball is much better since the implementation of the shot clock, and lacrosse would be similarly helped.

As suggested above, adding teams is difficult due to Title IX. The growth of women's lacrosse is largely a product of Title IX, but most schools are not in a position to add a men's team without also adding a women's team, and budgets are generally too tight these days to add two fully funded varsity teams. During the final four I was happy to hear more about players from outside the northeastern lacrosse hotbeds, but I just don't think it's realistic to expect a rapid expansion at the college level to other areas of the country.

Re Title IX, this is obviously a problem--and I say this as someone who fully supports the spirit of Title IX. But the reality of the way the law has been enforced has meant that non-revenue men's sports are continually sacrificed to football, with its huge rosters and high scholarship numbers. Not sure what the solution is there beyond figuring out a way to "fix" Title IX.

Re the shot clock, having sat through the Duke-ND game in blazing heat I understand the impulse completely--but I'm not sure a shot clock is the best solution. There has been a lot of discussion of this on insidelacrosse.com, and there have been some fairly persuasive comments to the effect that a shot clock would simply prioritize dodging over passing and feeding--making lacrosse a less interesting one-on-one game. One solution some people have suggested is making the box smaller--so that when a team receives a stall warning, they must keep the ball within an even smaller area to avoid losing possession. Another interesting suggestion was that stick rules be changed to make it easier for defensemen to cause turnovers by hitting an attack's stick--with the refinements in sticks over the last several years, players can fall down, roll over, and get back up and somehow not lose the ball. But I don't know how likely it is that the NCAA would change stick requirements in a way that might irritate equipment manufacturers.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Another interesting suggestion was that stick rules be changed to make it easier for defensemen to cause turnovers by hitting an attack's stick--with the refinements in sticks over the last several years, players can fall down, roll over, and get back up and somehow not lose the ball. But I don't know how likely it is that the NCAA would change stick requirements in a way that might irritate equipment manufacturers.

Hey - they are still selling sticks - and everyone will need a new one that meets new regs.

[greybeard]

I believe I read that Duke was only the 8th individual school to win an NCAA title; the sport has been dominated by Syracuse and Johns Hopkins especially.

Having some other schools get good talent and compete for championships sounds positive for the development of the sport.

Actually, the dominant power was Princeton, with 6 titles in maybe 10 or so years.

I believe that lax can become a professional sport on the college level, bypassing entirely the NCAA and retaining club status, just as it is in the Western States, in the WCLL. I really think that the game is best suited to the college atmosphere, and that there is no reason why the players could not be paid, aka the pros.

That would be less than full rides in most non-state schools, but lax teams give out very few of those anyway--I recall reading that national champ Syracuse had 6 last year, divided up among more than six players.

Football, when the evidence about long term brain damage becomes irrefuttable, you will see players backing away and schools as well, unless the sport changes in ways that will make it less a specacle, and less a draw, then it currently is.

When you think about it, most all replays, except when somone busts one and goes free, involves what probably is a brain damaging hit. When they becomes documented, where will the sport go on the high school and college levels--there is only so much mushing around the double talkers will be able to do until some trial lawyers start putting togetherclass actions that will make athletic directors think twice.

It might take 10 years, but that sport's days are numbered, and rightly so.

Title IX advocates will have their day of reckoning much sooner as soon as this generation of athletes hit their 30s, and many are well into their 20s already. These women incurred torn ACLs in epidemic numbers and will be near cripples in their mid thirties. Once they start needing knee and hip replacements in droves, the drive to be like Mike will end, and sanity around women's sports might begin to return. At the very least, there will be a critical mass of former athletes and their friends and families pushing back against the title IX sports establishment that makes the current push on the pro football establishment, which is starting to make some noise, seem silent.

Title IX advocates will have some questions to answer such as why, as of today, there is 10 years of data of the epidemic of ACL and other serious leg injuries in women's sports, not to mention concussions, and no one is doing anything but "studying the problem" while the games these young women play more and more replicate men's games and produce ever greater injury risks. Nope, just at the time men's lax is hitting it's stride, the approach to women's sports will either embrace a new paridigm or the sports themselves will be revealed by former participants as the paradox of the feminist revolution that it currently is. Until those responsible for those sports do something to stem the incidence of serious injury in these contact games, their insistence that money be thrown at young women to induce them to play will be one of the saddest pages in sports history in this country. Since I see no evidence that anyone is taking this issue seriously--oh, every year there is a new theory about how a new training regimine really will work, yadayadayada--real change will only come in about 10 years when an army of former steller athletes hobble up to the Hill to talk about the havoc that their sports have wroght.

Yes, I think that men's lacrosse has a real future. I also think that women's lax is among the sanest women's sports there is, and that fielding a team will not be that costly as long as the men's game is put on a pro basis.

[burnspbesq]

Somehow, a way has to be found for MCLA Division 1 to be integrated into the NCAA. Some of those "clubs" have full-time coaches and facilities as good as the lower tier of D1.

If that happens, then you instantly have another 70-80 schools playing D1 men's lacrosse. The Pac-10, SEC, Big 12, Mountain West, and Big 10 become lax conferences. The ACC becomes a 12-team lax conference. The Big East adds two or three schools.

[burnspbesq]

Sorry, Graybeard, but if you think Title IX is going away, you really need a reality check. The epidemic of ACL injuries among elite women athletes is unfortunate, but it's no reason to deny women athletes equal opportunity. That. Just. Ain't. Happening. Nor should it.

I also think that regardless of what the science says, football isn't going away. I'm glad my kid was never interested in football - that way I didn't have to say no.

[MCFinARL]

The epidemic of ACL injuries among elite women athletes is unfortunate, but it's no reason to deny women athletes equal opportunity. That. Just. Ain't. Happening. Nor should it.


Agreed. I think it's important to remember that the point of Title IX is not just to allow more women to play sports, but to give women comparable opportunities to use sports as a way of getting access to higher education. It's one thing to argue that our culture overemphasizes sports as a path to higher education (or to success generally, for that matter)--I think it does. And one result of this is pushing young athletes to train too hard and specialize too early, which can lead to injuries (and probably lost opportunities to develop other interests and talents) for both males and females.

But it's another thing to argue that women should be "protected" from this by being denied scholarship opportunities, but men should not. Again--I'm not saying everything about the way Title IX has been implemented is wise. But the underlying principle is sound.

As for the ACL injuries, Greybeard is right that this is a growing problem for female athletes specifically--but injuries generally are a problem for athletes who play at an elite level (think of Zoubs with his broken feet, for example). I don't see why we should discourage one sex and not the other from playing sports at the highest level to avoid injuries instead of just continuing to work on figuring out the best way to avoid and/or treat injuries for both sexes.

[greybeard]

Sorry, Graybeard, but if you think Title IX is going away, you really need a reality check. The epidemic of ACL injuries among elite women athletes is unfortunate, but it's no reason to deny women athletes equal opportunity. That. Just. Ain't. Happening. Nor should it.

I also think that regardless of what the science says, football isn't going away. I'm glad my kid was never interested in football - that way I didn't have to say no.

You probably are right. I'm not sure I said that it's going away. What I think has to go away are the rules in contact games like soccer and basketball that are causing these injuries. You make the rules in those sports in line with the type of play that is safer for young women, and I believe that that must happen, then neither has anything to offer that lax doesn't; in fact, they have less, because, in basketball for example, I'm not sure that anything short of returning to old-style women's rules would do.

So, I see a place for women's lax as a premier and American game which, and I'm being gingoistic here, unlike soccer or field hockey, will not be built on offering scholarship money to young women from other countries, which as a national policy makes no sense to me.

Nor does converting the vast club sports world of lacrosse out West into NCAA teams. Clubs, at least my cousin's at U. of Arizona, are self-supporting. With the popularity of the sport, I shouldn't think that it is a huge leap for them to be revenue generating, at least to cover reasonable travel expenses and paid coaching staffs, maybe a little yank with admissions, and maybe even a little money around for the athletes, as quasi pros.

How a quasi or semi pro team affiliated with a university would intersect with Title IX law I do not know, but I should think that it operates outside the numbers game. If not, I'm one of the few men's lacrosse fans who find tremendous value in the women's game, in fact, if the truth be known, more value in the women's game for a variety of reasons than the men's.

I don't think that fielding a club women's team would be an expensive proposition. If schools would want to subsize them more than they need or are willing to subsize men's teams, terrific! As I said, in the upcoming years, I think that men's lax can become a revenue producer as long as competitions remain relatively local, which I think is part of the charm of the game. With cable and the equipment companies and the growth potential for selling product among the youth in those states, should be doable.

[dcdevil2009]

Re Title IX and lacrosse. I think it has helped the quality of play at the college level by preventing the talent pool from becoming diluted. More and more people are playing at the youth level, but the expansion to the college level has been limited and thus, the competition for the same number of slots has increased. This increased competition leads to a much higher quality of play. You'll notice this if you listen to any of the former players turned announcers talking about how there are fewer ground balls, turnovers, etc. This increased quality of play can only help the sport in the long run, as it will become more popular and be able to generate more revenue. You only need to look at all the down periods in other sports (NBA in the mid-90s, MLS in the mid-2000s, and NHL-the pre-strike years), which followed over-expansion and diluted talent pools to see how important it is to always be raising the quality of play in order to keep viewers interested.

[greybeard]

As for the ACL injuries, Greybeard is right that this is a growing problem for female athletes specifically--but injuries generally are a problem for athletes who play at an elite level (think of Zoubs with his broken feet, for example). I don't see why we should discourage one sex and not the other from playing sports at the highest level to avoid injuries instead of just continuing to work on figuring out the best way to avoid and/or treat injuries for both sexes.

It is not a growing problem, it is an epidemic problem in sports such as soccer and basketball that has been known for more than 10 years and only gets worse--the incidence of ACL tears requiring surgical repair is anywhere, depending on the statistics which are unreliable, from 8 to 11 times those of boys/men playing these same sports.

Year in and year out and all we hear from the people driving the bus behind these sports is, "Look at the action, just like the guys" or some such. Well, the NY Times Magazine had a cover story a year or two ago about this scurge, I believe Brian Gumble has done at least one piece on it, and yet the march to ever faster, more violent play continues, giving young women who wish to participate no choice but to put themselves at unconscionable risk or to forgo the opportunity.

Whatever and whomever the forces are beyond this nonsense, it seems to me that they will continue marching forward--their sisters' and daughters' bodies be damned--until there is a critical mass of injured former warriers who reach early middle age only to find themselves functional cripples for their age. When you have a bunch of beautiful 30-40 somethings having diffiiculty ambulating the way you now see young retired football players, the forces behind this insanity in women's sports will have a counterbalance that does not have to answer the nonsense about why should women not be given the same opportunities as men, a cannard if there ever was one.

If a young teenage woman with talent wants to play soccer and represent her school she has no choice: either she subjects herself to 8 to 11 times the likelihood of a life-altering knee injury than her male counterparts or she joins the debate club, and the feminist forces behind the so-called equality-insports movement know it and don't give a damn. They are not satisfied with young women to be given a chance to participate in sports on an equal footing as male counterparts, they are out to prove that women can do it the same as men, no matter what the cost in body parts to the former.

This has been going on for years, more than 10 when people started noticing and writing about what was correctly seen as a terribly important health issue but not by those who control the agenda and dictate the objective of performance equality that drives the bus in the Movement.

Should something be done to reduce the incidence of injury in sports that young men play? I have been an advocate for that for most all my adult life, even while the advent and perfection of ACL-repair and micro surgeries make horrific leg injuries that are commonplace in men's sports not much more than a statistic that does not even get the same play in the newspapers as running accounts of first downs or unassisted tackles.

As I've said, there is now a critical mass that is pressing for action in football on the pro level, but the focus of that critical mass is mainly on their own parochial interests--will the NFL and its union step up to help these men who should have but did not apprehend that their injuries portended for them. The research that has begun will soon get into addressing what everyone already knows but ignores--that the reality is that brain trauma and long term effects are interwined with all aspects of that sport that make the crowds roar and make the sport so appealing. Then, universities and high schools will have a real dilema that I do not think that they will be able to dance around.

But, the people driving the bus around the escalation of injury-causing play in women's sports will have their own constituents to answer to, and they will see in those women's eyes the young girls who years before were only so much fodder to them. I am sure that the bus drivers will have encouraging news about the latest training techniques that they are hopeful that will keep the daughters of the women before them from suffering a similar fate.

What is it about sports that drives all of us to care so much about them, to put so much into them, to make the play of children the business of adults, who not only make the rules for how kids play but insist that they know best how it is that these children should perform. What is it about sports that allows young people to suffer serious injury, ignore what doctors tell them, and go back for more? Why do I, a grown man well past the day that I can play any of the games I once enjoyed, still try to deal myself in by writing about that which I can no longer be an active participant in?

If you think I know, your crazier than me, but I have recently begun to find these and other related questions as important as they are haunting.

[MCFinARL]

What is it about sports that drives all of us to care so much about them, to put so much into them, to make the play of children the business of adults, who not only make the rules for how kids play but insist that they know best how it is that these children should perform. What is it about sports that allows young people to suffer serious injury, ignore what doctors tell them, and go back for more? Why do I, a grown man well past the day that I can play any of the games I once enjoyed, still try to deal myself in by writing about that which I can no longer be an active participant in?

If you think I know, your crazier than me, but I have recently begun to find these and other related questions as important as they are haunting.

All good questions. One possible insight into part of this: my kids once had a swim coach who liked to say that the rich race horses, while the middle class race their children. The baby boomers have been a pretty competitive generation, one way or another, and our children have often borne the brunt of it.
I still don't see feminism as the evil wizard behind the curtain, though--but we may just have to agree to disagree about that.