Scandal Brewing at Kansas?

[roywhite]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AsaRfGVPidIyD8hn8BDxWq45nYcB?slug=ys-kutickets052610

From the article:


LAWRENCE, Kan. – A high-ranking member of the University of Kansas athletic department and the father of a prominent Jayhawks’ athlete allegedly made more than $800,000 in a ticket scalping operation that was orchestrated by college basketball power brokers David and Dana Pump, Yahoo! Sports has learned.

[Indoor66]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AsaRfGVPidIyD8hn8BDxWq45nYcB?slug=ys-kutickets052610

From the article:

Smoke, fire and all that stuff, this does not look good. It will be interesting to follow this one. A lot of money, a lot of influence.

[Duvall]

David Freeman, a Lawrence real estate developer who said he participated in the scheme, told Yahoo! Sports that he, former Kansas director of ticket operations Rodney Jones and high-profile alum Roger Morningstar – the father of Jayhawks guard Brady Morningstar – were following the instructions of the Pump brothers when the trio made hundreds of thousands of dollars scalping tickets during the 2002 and 2003 NCAA tournaments.

What did Roy know, and when did he know it?

[MChambers]

Anything featuring the "Pump brothers" sounds juicy.

[JasonEvans]

Seems to be more about adminstrators than players. Still, Roy was around when it happened so you can never tell who is going to try to rope him in.

--Jason "this is about money, not winning, so I think the cheating stench is not as bad" Evans

[sandinmyshoes]

Some of this goes on in every single D1 school of consequence. And yes, I mean the entire ACC.

Let's just hope that it is much less organized in our environs than it appears to have been in Kansas.

[cbnaylor]

That's really interesting about Roy Williams. I wasn't thinking about that while reading the article. Sometimes coaches leave for a reason. Hmmmm so maybe that's while Roy left after saying he had no interest in Carolina. Do you really think that Self and Williams knew about this?

[OldPhiKap]

Do you really think that Self and Williams knew about this?

No.

Absent evidence that any AD knew about this type of activity and turned a blind eye, I see this as individual criminal activity and not anything associated with any particular program. If the NCAA takes any action, it will only be because it wanted to make the money instead of some poor schmoe who tried to flip some tickets.

[theAlaskanBear]

No.

Absent evidence that any AD knew about this type of activity and turned a blind eye, I see this as individual criminal activity and not anything associated with any particular program. If the NCAA takes any action, it will only be because it wanted to make the money instead of some poor schmoe who tried to flip some tickets.

I agree with your characterization that the NCAA protects its own financial interests. However, calling these scalpers "poor shmoes" goes to far. What kind of "poor shmoe" definition are you using????

[DukieInKansas]

KU will have a press conference at 1:30 CDT to announce the results of their internal investigation.

[Duvall]

Seems to be more about adminstrators than players. Still, Roy was around when it happened so you can never tell who is going to try to rope him in.

--Jason "this is about money, not winning, so I think the cheating stench is not as bad" Evans

Well, maybe. Then again, we may only be looking at one side of the transaction. We know that Kansas provided the Pump brothers with tickets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on the secondary market, and we know that Kansas has had a fair amount of success in recruiting players affiliated with the Pump brothers over the years, both under Williams and Self.

Is there a connection? It's too early to tell.

[sagegrouse]

Seems to be more about adminstrators than players. Still, Roy was around when it happened so you can never tell who is going to try to rope him in.

--Jason "this is about money, not winning, so I think the cheating stench is not as bad" Evans

If the father of a Jayhawk athlete is making hundreds of thousands of dollars out of scalping tickets in connivance with a member of the athletic department, this is a really, really big deal.

sagegrouse

[Cockabeau]

I wonders how this effects Josh Selby?

[BD80]

I wonders how this effects Josh Selby?

His dad won't get as many tickets, nor will they be as valuable as they would have been :(

[airowe]

Well, maybe. Then again, we may only be looking at one side of the transaction. We know that Kansas provided the Pump brothers with tickets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on the secondary market, and we know that Kansas has had a fair amount of success in recruiting players affiliated with the Pump brothers over the years, both under Williams and Self.

Is there a connection? It's too early to tell.

And, in turn, the Pump Bros couldn't make money selling KU's NCAA Tourney tickets if the Jayhawks weren't in the tourney. It would make sense for them to send their best players to the program that was facilitating their money-making scheme so as to keep it vital.

I don't think we've heard even the tip of the iceberg of this story and how much roy knew. It seems as though this real estate developer is ready to sing.

[roywhite]

Well, maybe. Then again, we may only be looking at one side of the transaction. We know that Kansas provided the Pump brothers with tickets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on the secondary market, and we know that Kansas has had a fair amount of success in recruiting players affiliated with the Pump brothers over the years, both under Williams and Self.

Is there a connection? It's too early to tell.

This story is barely causing a ripple at Inside Carolina. Honestly, I hope it doesn't spill over to Ole Roy. I'd rather see him get smacked around on the court by the Devils than get dragged through some Kansas mud.

[BD80]

... I'd rather see him get smacked around on the court by the Devils than get dragged through some Kansas mud.

Why not both?

[cbnaylor]

Airowe is right! I think this is just the beginning of a story that is about to unfold. I'm sick and tired of people getting their hands on basketball programs that has no reason to stick their noses in it. Wide World Wes, the Mr. Clifton, and others such as these guys.

[stickdog]

Well, maybe. Then again, we may only be looking at one side of the transaction. We know that Kansas provided the Pump brothers with tickets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars on the secondary market, and we know that Kansas has had a fair amount of success in recruiting players affiliated with the Pump brothers over the years, both under Williams and Self.

Is there a connection? It's too early to tell.

Far be it from me to cast aspersions, but it appears that the Pumps were Roy's pimps.

[G man]

We need to not forget that these guys were getting donations for the program which supposedly helped them get favorable spots in line for tickets. It makes one wonder what else the boosters did to help move their way up the line. Maybe help push recruits to certain AAU teams managed by people who could help KU in the recruitment. I think everyone is right this is only the beginning. I for one hope it does not get swept under the rug I am tired of this crap affecting programs i want to see people getting in trouble for messing up the game.

[Reisen]

Seems to be more about adminstrators than players. Still, Roy was around when it happened so you can never tell who is going to try to rope him in.

--Jason "this is about money, not winning, so I think the cheating stench is not as bad" Evans


Absent evidence that any AD knew about this type of activity and turned a blind eye, I see this as individual criminal activity and not anything associated with any particular program. If the NCAA takes any action, it will only be because it wanted to make the money instead of some poor schmoe who tried to flip some tickets.

Yeah, gotta say no matter how generously you look at this with respect to the Kanasa program, there's no way to say it was just isolated scalping. The article does a good job of laying it out, but the underlying connections run waaaaay too deep.

A member of the staff scalping tickets... fine. A player's father involved... ok. A player's father and prominent boosters involved.... ok. A player's father, and prominent boosters, who just happen to run AAU teams that repeatedly steer prominent recruits to KU?

This is going to blow up in Kansas' face. Big time.

[Jderf]

This is going to blow up in Kansas' face. Big time.

I sure hope you guys are right. The off-season is long, and I am in desperate need of entertainment. That story about the 22 year-old highschool player was nice, but really just a blip on the radar. This, however, could turn out to be long and drawn out, and it could go in a million different directions. And the slightest possibility (even if unlikely) that this could turn around and affect UNC (through Roy) is absolutely tantalizing. Here's to hoping things heat up. :D

[SoCalDukeFan]

is the influence that guys like World Wide Wes, the Pumps and others have on college basketball.

They are able to influence and control many many elite high school players. Because of that influence they get preferential treatment from college coaches. Coaches and assistants either get or used (not sure if the NCAA changed the rules) to get Final Four tickets. They would give or sell them at face value to the Pumps who would scalp them. Now the Pumps provide a headhunter service for college coaches - see Bruce Pearl at UTenn. ADs have to ask themselves if they don't use the Pumps will the Pumps then steer players away from their school. They are also associated with shoe companies - Pumps with Adidas and Wes with Nike.

I have met David Pump several times and have talked with him for several hours. He claims that a few years ago he took a large group, 10 or 12 I don't remember exactly, to Duke for the UNC game and had no trouble getting tickets.

The NCAA limits the contact between coaches and high school players. This creates a void for some elite players and the void is filled by Wes, the Pumps and probably others.

The whole story needs to come out. I know that there is much more to this than I know.

SoCal

[4decadedukie]

Yeah, gotta say no matter how generously you look at this with respect to the Kanasa program, there's no way to say it was just isolated scalping. The article does a good job of laying it out, but the underlying connections run waaaaay too deep.

A member of the staff scalping tickets... fine. A player's father involved... ok. A player's father and prominent boosters involved.... ok. A player's father, and prominent boosters, who just happen to run AAU teams that repeatedly steer prominent recruits to KU?

This is going to blow up in Kansas' face. Big time.


"This is going to blow up in Kansas' face. Big time."

I suspect you are correct, although none of us know even a fraction of the facts. However, what is particularly alarming is KU's stature as one of the “clean” and traditionally outstanding programs. With no tangible reasons for fear, I am apprehensive that this could eventually lead to other, storied Division I programs and could therefore badly tarnish men's college basketball.

[cbnaylor]

So a press conference was suppose to take place at 1:30 CDT according to one of the post. I was just wondering what was said? Anybody. Anybody. Anybody.

[airowe]

The Pumps (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jo-pumps040108)

[DevilHorns]

http://www.doublepump.com/CBConference/agenda10.html

The Pumps run a yearly basketball conference with a long list of former and present college coaches including.... Bill Self.

[Mal]

Thanks for the link, airowe. Maybe I'm just clueless, but I had no idea these brothers even existed.

Why does collegiate sports need people like this, again? What positive service are they providing? Their mere existence is an indictment of the entire enterprise. That's regardless of whether or not this alleged ticket-scalping thing occurred, and if so, what the seedy details of it were. That two guys make millions annually by essentially business-brokering in "amateur" athletics is really, really discouraging. Call me naive. I mean, the mask has been off in terms of the whole student-athlete thing for awhile, and we all know college hoops is big business, but, still. When it's gotten to the point of spawning multiple incredibly lucrative parasite businesses, which is exactly what these guys and Worldwide Wes are running, well, wow.

[roywhite]

http://www.doublepump.com/CBConference/agenda10.html

The Pumps run a yearly basketball conference with an long list of former and present college coaches including.... Bill Self.

So far, no mention of Coach K as being part of the "Pump network."

I suppose it's possible some link will surface, but that doesn't seem like Coach K's style.

This is real sausage making stuff.

[cbnaylor]

This is becoming real comical now. This is coming from ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5223151

The university said it will take immediate measures to prevent future wrongdoing within the ticket office. It is also working with federal authorities investigating the allegations.

I can't believe they said that.

[CameronBlue]

So far, no mention of Coach K as being part of the "Pump network."

I suppose it's possible some link will surface, but that doesn't seem like Coach K's style.

This is real sausage making stuff.

I hope you're right; I 'd be shocked if Coach K is within these punks' sphere of influence although SoCal's post in this thread is a little troubling.

Roy may well have to put up with some annoying questions during the coming season. Press conferences for him should be fun.

[DukieInKansas]

So a press conference was suppose to take place at 1:30 CDT according to one of the post. I was just wondering what was said? Anybody. Anybody. Anybody.

Link to the Star: http://www.kansascity.com/

There is a link on that page for the press conference and various stories. Of course the story may not stay on the front page for long. Apparently it involved over $1m in tickets - football included.

Link to specific story: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/26/1972836/ku-report-6-individuals-diverted.html

[Jeffrey236]

As an aside, the pints system that Lew Perkins devised is the same system that he implemented at UConn, incurring the rage of long-time loyal UConn supporters. Whjy do i think that this thread may take us to Storrs?

[RoyalBlue08]

Thanks for the link, airowe. Maybe I'm just clueless, but I had no idea these brothers even existed.

Why does collegiate sports need people like this, again? What positive service are they providing? Their mere existence is an indictment of the entire enterprise. That's regardless of whether or not this alleged ticket-scalping thing occurred, and if so, what the seedy details of it were. That two guys make millions annually by essentially business-brokering in "amateur" athletics is really, really discouraging. Call me naive. I mean, the mask has been off in terms of the whole student-athlete thing for awhile, and we all know college hoops is big business, but, still. When it's gotten to the point of spawning multiple incredibly lucrative parasite businesses, which is exactly what these guys and Worldwide Wes are running, well, wow.

This kind of sums up how I feel about it all as well. However, I don't really know what the solution is. As long as we all care about college basketball as much as we do, there is going to be a lot of money in it. If there is a lot of money in it, there is going to be a lot of people trying to get at that money.

[DevilHorns]

I hope you're right; I 'd be shocked if Coach K is within these punks' sphere of influence although SoCal's post in this thread is a little troubling.

Roy may well have to put up with some annoying questions during the coming season. Press conferences for him should be fun.

Well being on the conference speaker list may not necessarily mean involvement in shady practices... right? There are some very reputable people on that list (including Bill Russell and Jerry West on the 2009 list to name a few).

I think this list just shows that the Pumps have as far a reach in the basketball world as any and implies nothing more. That said, I'm guessing not everyone on these speaker lists are squeaky clean...

Regardless, K is not connected to the Pumps from what I could find on their website.

ESPN's article is weak. No way KU loses $3 million in ticket revenue over a several year period without some top-down involvement in the administration.

[gumbomoop]

This kind of sums up how I feel about it all as well. However, I don't really know what the solution is. As long as we all care about college basketball as much as we do, there is going to be a lot of money in it. If there is a lot of money in it, there is going to be a lot of people trying to get at that money.

"Money doesn't talk, it swears."

- famous American poet/songwriter/comic genius

[airowe]

Internal report:

http://www2.ljworld.com/documents/2010/may/26/ku-report-investigation-ticket-scandal/

$1 Million worth of tickets were sold improperly.

[Duvall]

So far, no mention of Coach K as being part of the "Pump network."

I suppose it's possible some link will surface, but that doesn't seem like Coach K's style.

Well, yeah. The Pump brothers work with Adidas, and Coach K is affiliated with Nike.

[mgtr]

Dad gum it! Them boys told me it wouldn't never come out!

[Reisen]

Thanks for the link, airowe. Maybe I'm just clueless, but I had no idea these brothers even existed.

Why does collegiate sports need people like this, again? What positive service are they providing? Their mere existence is an indictment of the entire enterprise. That's regardless of whether or not this alleged ticket-scalping thing occurred, and if so, what the seedy details of it were. That two guys make millions annually by essentially business-brokering in "amateur" athletics is really, really discouraging. Call me naive. I mean, the mask has been off in terms of the whole student-athlete thing for awhile, and we all know college hoops is big business, but, still. When it's gotten to the point of spawning multiple incredibly lucrative parasite businesses, which is exactly what these guys and Worldwide Wes are running, well, wow.

I think there are a whole lot of dynamics, fairly specific to college basketball (shoe companies/contracts, AAU circuits, the fact that basketball teams are so much smaller than other sports, socioeconomic backgrounds, affiliations with inner cities, etc., etc., etc.) that create a breeding ground for this kind of stuff.

Not that corruption or scandal doesn't happen in other sports (Hello USC), but it seems especially ridiculous in college basketball.

[sagegrouse]

Internal report:

http://www2.ljworld.com/documents/2010/may/26/ku-report-investigation-ticket-scandal/

$1 Million worth of tickets were sold improperly.

No mention here of the Pump bros. or any parents in the published Executive Summary. But it is a damning report on some real thieves in the athletic department and related entities.

This will lead to audits at a bunch of other schools, I suspect.

sagegrouse

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Pretty funny, I work for StubHub here in Chicago and a broker we work with here was saying that in one of the Regionals back in 2003, Dana was trying to buy all of his seats and he told him no, so David Pump was trying to swing deals with him because all he had was premium stuff. Small world.

It's funny because Im reading this and I say to myself, it doesn't sound all that bad. Jones provided them unsold inventory from their allotment (not illegal) and they paid for it. Now obviously he exceeded the amount he shouldve provided them, but if it was going to go unsold (maybe it wouldn't have), who cares? They then re-sold them for extra which I know the NCAA prohibits, but it still happens. I know there is some back door stuff with the mob that I don't really know much about, but the ticketing scheme to me sounds more funny than anything.

[Indoor66]

Pretty funny, I work for StubHub here in Chicago and a broker we work with here was saying that in one of the Regionals back in 2003, Dana was trying to buy all of his seats and he told him no, so David Pump was trying to swing deals with him because all he had was premium stuff. Small world.

It's funny because Im reading this and I say to myself, it doesn't sound all that bad. Jones provided them unsold inventory from their allotment (not illegal) and they paid for it. Now obviously he exceeded the amount he shouldve provided them, but if it was going to go unsold (maybe it wouldn't have), who cares? They then re-sold them for extra which I know the NCAA prohibits, but it still happens. I know there is some back door stuff with the mob that I don't really know much about, but the ticketing scheme to me sounds more funny than anything.

You seem to have an unusual sense of humor. It sounds to me like possible fraud and scalping, in potential violation of possibly numerous statutes.

[Lennies]

The article seemed to say that Jones sold tickets for a lot more than the value the university would have recieved and it's unclear if the university was reimbursed for the tickets. That also made the tickets unavailable for alumni to buy and I'm sure Jones did everything he could to enlarge his pool of saleable tickets (behind the mysterious points system) rather than providing them to alumni.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

The article seemed to say that Jones sold tickets for a lot more than the value the university would have recieved and it's unclear if the university was reimbursed for the tickets. That also made the tickets unavailable for alumni to buy and I'm sure Jones did everything he could to enlarge his pool of saleable tickets (behind the mysterious points system) rather than providing them to alumni.


Yeah, that's the fraudulent part. He basically created his own demand. I am not condoning it by any means, but it's all on this Jones guy, not so much KU. It'll get straightened out financially and he'll be exiled. What if any consequences will the team itself be assessed? I'd say none.

[Greg_Newton]

I'm kind of surprised this hasn't created a bigger splash. It seems as if most schools in BCS conferences are likely involved in this in some way or another... right? The source said he dealt with msot of the Big 12, and I doubt the system would be isolated to them.

I mean, is anyone going to do anything about this? For the love of all things holy, is it too much to ask the NCAA to grow a pair, just once? Heck, even ESPN?

ESPN's most recent CBB blog is about Kansas... but it's about Self being impressed with Selby. Their story on the scandal makes it seem like it was isolated to the ticket sales department. It's so frustrating to see the bigger picture ignored when it's so obvious what is going on.

[DukieInKansas]

The article seemed to say that Jones sold tickets for a lot more than the value the university would have recieved and it's unclear if the university was reimbursed for the tickets. That also made the tickets unavailable for alumni to buy and I'm sure Jones did everything he could to enlarge his pool of saleable tickets (behind the mysterious points system) rather than providing them to alumni.

Lew Perkins didn't come until 2003, I believe, and that is when the point system came into place. This appears to have started prior to that time.

I'm pretty sure all of KU's allotment could have been sold to students and alumni - especially for Big 12 tournaments in Kansas City. Even if they didn't sell them, the leftover tickets would most likely not have been the best seats in the allotment. Under the current point system, not every member of the Williams Fund received an opportunity to buy Big 12 tourney tickets this year and they weren't given an opportunity to get on a wait list in case all of the Tier 1 folks didn't buy the available tickets.

I really hope this doesn't go beyond the ticket office. OK - I wouldn't mind if Lew Perkins were involved in some way but I hope no coaches/team managers/players are involved.

[stickdog]

Yeah, that's the fraudulent part. He basically created his own demand. I am not condoning it by any means, but it's all on this Jones guy, not so much KU. It'll get straightened out financially and he'll be exiled. What if any consequences will the team itself be assessed? I'd say none.

Except the Pumps are AAU power brokers who have been accused of directing some of their players to the highest bidder. So you have to admit that there is at least the potential for a quid pro quo going on here at a level way above Jones.

[Eckster]

IIRC, a couple of years ago, 60 minutes did a piece on the Pump Brothers and their influence in college basketball. In particular, their ability to influence the placement of college coaches and players was covered. At the time, the bros seemed to me of questionable character and this story seems to support that. I'm not surprised to learn that perhaps there was some illegal activity associated with these guys. It will be interesting to see this play out.

[Duvall]

I'm kind of surprised this hasn't created a bigger splash. It seems as if most schools in BCS conferences are likely involved in this in some way or another... right?

I think you just answered your own question.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I would guess that almost every Division I coach has some relationship with the Pumps. For one thing, you and/or your assistants are going to want to evaluate players on their travel team and at their camp.

According to their web site Mike Dunleavy Jr. is an alumni of the Pumps elite travel team, and DeMarcus Nelson and Carolos Boozer attended their camp.

You are a Division I coach or assistant. You get your Final Four tickets which you are not supposed to resell. Your team is not in the FF and you really don't need to go to the games. So you give your tickets to a Pump, building the relationship. While nothing is said you have improved your relationship with some very influential people in college basketball.

SoCal

[weezie]

OK, all right....now you're scaring me.

Now, for real, skeezy bottom suckers running the show.

Please, please...no involvement for Duke.....

[dukeballer2294]

personally knowing the pump brothers, i think until full reports come out it is unwarranted to throw them under the bus regardless of the "sleezy aau" type that these power guys seem to have. they are selfless people off the court who hold one of the biggest sporting events of the year with all proceeds going to either cancer research or their local hospital. K has been an honoree at one of these events and has said positive things about the pumps

[BD80]

This sounds like it will end up being HUGE:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/13443367/kansas-says-six-staffers-linked-to-1m-inappropriate-ticket-sale?tag=globalNav.collegebasketball;headlines

This is a report of the KU report:


Details of the scam were outlined Wednesday in a report that ... said five Kansas athletics staffers and a consultant ... sold or used at least 17,609 men's basketball tickets, 2,181 football tickets and a number of parking passes and other passes for personal purposes. The report showed over $887,000 in basketball tickets and more than $122,000 worth of football tickets were involved. ...

Because investigators did not have subpoena power, the amounts could climb as high as $3 million ... it's also possible the scam could have started much earlier since accurate records were only kept back to 2005.

Investigators were unable to determine what portion of the $1 million in tickets were sold directly to ticket brokers. Distribution of the tickets were disguised by department employees as complimentary and inventory tickets, or other categories with limited accountability.

... According to [David] Freeman, the ticket scam began in 2002 when the Pumps contacted Roger Morningstar and asked how to obtain extra Kansas postseason basketball tickets. ...

Three points,


they couldn't subpoena records and still found $1 million in ticket fraud
the records available only go back to 2005, but the fraud began in 2002 or earlier
the $1 million is FACE value, they probably sold MUCH higher


Frankly, I think it is very relevant to find how many of the tickets went to the Pumps. They are more mainstream now, but they were true hustlers ten years ago. If memory serves, their ticket reselling was their main source of income way back when. I think KU / ol' roy got some recruits through the Pumps.

[airowe]

"it's also possible the scam could have started much earlier since accurate records were only kept back to 2005."

Interesting that accurate records didn't start to be kept until after roy left...

[Jeffrey236]

What is interesting and quite ironic is that, as anyone who bought tickets to the Final Four from the NCAA through their lottery knows, the tickets arrive from the NCAA with a message that if you're caught trying to re-sell the tickets at more than face, they will ban you from being eligible to buy them in the future. They go on to say that if you have to unload them, you must sell them back to the NCAA - who then re-resells them at a marked-up price.

[left_hook_lacey]

You seem to have an unusual sense of humor. It sounds to me like possible fraud and scalping, in potential violation of possibly numerous statutes.

Violation of statutes that goes happens at 90% of colleges in this country. Any college, in any sport that has a large fan base sees this happen every year, almost every game. Sure, this may be on a larger scale, but it's still the same thing.

Not saying it's right, but does anyone really think this is the first time this has happened? Or that it doesn't happen every year for that matter?

[Olympic Fan]

What is interesting and quite ironic is that, as anyone who bought tickets to the Final Four from the NCAA through their lottery knows, the tickets arrive from the NCAA with a message that if you're caught trying to re-sell the tickets at more than face, they will ban you from being eligible to buy them in the future. They go on to say that if you have to unload them, you must sell them back to the NCAA - who then re-resells them at a marked-up price.

This was a big deal in Indy last month. The Indy paper had several articles about the outrage by buyers and sellers for, first, the inefficiency of the system (the designated NCAA buy and resell locations were undermanned and generated long lines) and the unfairness -- the NCAA repurchased them at face value and resold them at a 300 percent markup.

The NCAA system almost demanded that you deal with the illegal scalpers, who offered much better prices and MUCH less wait time. There is licensed scalping in Indy, so even though the scalping violated NCAA rules, it was legal in the city.

Overall for this scandal, I think we all better take a breath and wait and see what develops -- first to make sure Duke isn't involved (God, I hope not) and second to see if Roy actually did anything wrong before we condemn him.

I'd rather not be like the UNC fans and other haters who smear Coach K on things like Maggette and Duhon's Mom without knowing the facts of either case.

[Reisen]

personally knowing the pump brothers, i think until full reports come out it is unwarranted to throw them under the bus regardless of the "sleezy aau" type that these power guys seem to have. they are selfless people off the court who hold one of the biggest sporting events of the year with all proceeds going to either cancer research or their local hospital. K has been an honoree at one of these events and has said positive things about the pumps

Then we can throw the Pump brothers in with Hamas, Hezbollah, Bernie Madoff, the Jamaican drug lord, and countless other figures in history who used charitable acts to keep people from paying attention to their day to day activities, and how they generate cash flow... It doesn't matter what they do with their money, but where it comes from.

I just want to be clear, for the few people trying to minimize the story in this thread:

Giving millions of dollars worth of tickets to power brokers (in exchange for, maybe a small fraction of their value, with corrupt administrators siphoning off much of that) is not ok, whether or not anyone can actually prove it was a bribe in exchange for the commitment of the recruits they coach.

Put differently, I can't just hand the Pumps a suitcase full of cash every year to go along with the handshake we exchange at AAU events. Jim Calhoun used to be able to hand them a check for $30,000, to go along with the wink and the nod, in exchange for an exhibition game, but at least there was some argument there. Whether I'm handing them a suitcase full of actual cash, or something they can sell in exchange for millions of dollars, it makes little difference. There's absolutely no defense here... The fact that the NCAA system is flawed and favors the NCAA has little relevance.

So many rules and ethics were broken... The only way Kansas keeps this from blowing up is to do what they're doing, and claim this was an isolated incident by a half dozen rogue administrators, make them sacrificial lambs, and hope no one can trace it back to anyone else at the U.

Unfortunately, as we're seeing with the original canary here, people have a hard time keeping their mouth shut when faced with the prospect of jail time.

[Chicago 1995]

Except the Pumps are AAU power brokers who have been accused of directing some of their players to the highest bidder. So you have to admit that there is at least the potential for a quid pro quo going on here at a level way above Jones.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ys-kutickets052610

"Since Jones, Freeman and Roger Morningstar allegedly engaged in scalping tickets through the Pump brothers in 2002, summer traveling teams financed by the Pump brothers have featured at least nine players who went on to play for the Jayhawks. Among them were nationally recruited players Mario Chalmers, David Padgett, Omar Wilkes, Tyrel Reed, Elijah Johnson, Jeff Withey, Travis Releford and Brady Morningstar."

Seems like Chalmers was a pretty important player for them.

Pagdett, you'll recall, was charmed by the guy 8 miles down the road so much he wanted a release from KU to go to UNC when Roy left KU.

[stickdog]

The Wear twins and Larry Drew played for the Pump-n-Run Elite AAU squad.

There was a supposed "scandal" about colleges (including Duke) paying $600 each for a recruiting newsletter published by the Pumps. While this was the typical non-starter (AAU organizations trying to shake down major college athletic departments for a little change), it is interesting to note who the Pumps used to cloak themselves with propriety when asked about the practice (http://www.newsobserver.com/2009/05/31/88705/ncaa-studying-scouting-services.html).

Dana Pump said Roy Williams, for example, has been using his service since he was an assistant coach under Dean Smith recruiting Harold Miner in the late 1980s. Pump said nobody holds Williams hostage over a recruit and disputed the idea that club coaches are routinely charging subscription fees to colleges in exchange for access to players.

"I don't see that going around much at all," Pump said. "There are so many bigger issues right now."

[SoCalDukeFan]

You are a Division I coach and you get more FF tickets that you can use. You agree not to resell them for more than face value.

Which of the following do you find unethical:

1. You give them to a relative who goes to the games.

2. You help out a friend/relative who needs money. You give him the tickets knowing full well that he will resell them for a profit.

3. You help out a friend/relative who needs money. You sell him the tickets at face value knowing full well the will resell them for a profit.

4. You sell the tickets to the Pumps for face value.

The NCAA creates this problem by distributing valuable tickets to coaches at less than their market value. It used to be at Final Fours the Pumps would walk around and basically collect tickets from coaches. Augusta National has the same issue with Masters Tickets.

The LA Times has the story today Link (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-pump-brothers-ucla-20100527,0,4358779.story)

Ben Howland seems to really like the Pumps.

Howland said Wednesday that he could recall giving the Pumps a small number of his Final Four tickets in 2008 because "they're among my good friends. … I've known them for 25 years; really good people, and they have my full support."

SoCal

[airowe]

You are a Division I coach and you get more FF tickets that you can use. You agree not to resell them for more than face value.

Which of the following do you find unethical:

1. You give them to a relative who goes to the games.

2. You help out a friend/relative who needs money. You give him the tickets knowing full well that he will resell them for a profit.

3. You help out a friend/relative who needs money. You sell him the tickets at face value knowing full well the will resell them for a profit.

4. You sell the tickets to the Pumps for face value.

The NCAA creates this problem by distributing valuable tickets to coaches at less than their market value. It used to be at Final Fours the Pumps would walk around and basically collect tickets from coaches. Augusta National has the same issue with Masters Tickets.

The LA Times has the story today Link (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-pump-brothers-ucla-20100527,0,4358779.story)

Ben Howland seems to really like the Pumps.

Howland said Wednesday that he could recall giving the Pumps a small number of his Final Four tickets in 2008 because "they're among my good friends. … I've known them for 25 years; really good people, and they have my full support."

SoCal

We're talking about millions of dollars worth of tickets. Not helping out a friend. Big difference. One is a nice gesture and the other displays a lack of institutional control and various ethical, moral,and legal improprieties.

[Duvall]

The Wear twins and Larry Drew played for the Pump-n-Run Elite AAU squad.

Maybe Roy wasn't coughing up *enough* tickets.

[Reisen]

Maybe Roy wasn't coughing up *enough* tickets.

Bazinga!

[stickdog]

Ben Howland seems to really like the Pumps.


Coincidentally, UCLA always seems to get a lot of the Pumps' best AAU players.

[hurleyfor3]

This whole thing has to be called the "Pump-and-Dump" scandal, doesn't it?

[SoCalDukeFan]

We're talking about millions of dollars worth of tickets. Not helping out a friend. Big difference. One is a nice gesture and the other displays a lack of institutional control and various ethical, moral,and legal improprieties.

I agree that there is a big difference.

What I am aware of is the Pumps getting FF tickets from coaches. The coaches knew full well that the Pumps were reselling them at a profit. It was not one coach, it was lots of coaches. Collectively it becomes a big deal.

The Pumps may argue that they didn't know how the Kansas people got the tickets. However, just as the coaches know the Pumps were selling the tickets, the Pumps had to know that the Kansas people got them in a dishonest fashion.

SoCal

[stickdog]

It's one thing to pick up a handful of Final Four tickets from each D1 coach by trading on your "relationships." It's quite another to organize the systematic looting of the ticket office of major D1 program over an 9 year period to the tune of millions of dollars of tickets that were sold for perhaps tens of millions of dollars.

[Dukeface88]

It's one thing to pick up a handful of Final Four tickets from each D1 coach by trading on your "relationships." It's quite another to organize the systematic looting of the ticket office of major D1 program over an 9 year period to the tune of millions of dollars of tickets that were sold for perhaps tens of millions of dollars.

Exactly. IMO, the difference between your average scalpers and the Pumps is the difference between an office pool for the tourney (which most people here probably won this year), and a mob-run gambling ring. They're both illegal under the same statutes, but only one of them is going to concern law enforcement.

[4decadedukie]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5361510

ESPN is now reporting that two University of Kansas athletic department officials have been charged in the basketball ticket scalping scandal: "Two former University of Kansas athletics officials tied to a $1 million ticket scalping scandal at the school have been charged as part of a federal probe into the scheme, according to court documents made public Wednesday." For more information, please follow the hyperlink to ESPN's site.

[jjh1080]

First of all, if you are "given" tickets, you got them for free. If you sell them for $1 you made a $1 profit. It sounds like people think if the tickets "given" you normally cost $20 and you sold it for $25 you made a $5 profit. Wrong, it is a $25 profit.

Giving your tickets to a friend to help them out so they can sell them at a "profit" is fine by me. But giving them to a guy who you know will get probably hundreds of other tickets, you know it is all about making big bucks. If you do it year after year the friend probably isn't in a real need situation and if he is you probably should find him some real help, if you are a real friend.

I think the issue is just how many tickets does a coach get? The coach probably should be told how many they can request and then make the request. That will put the coach on the hot seat if he gives the tickets to people like the Pumps year after year. Why would you give a coach 10 tickets to the final four if his plans are to take his wife and a couple of good friends?

The whole system is flawed and the people giving out the excess tickets should also be held accountable. What the hell do you expect someone to do when they have tickets to such an event and they don't plan to use them. I'd go for the "profit' too.