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NYC Duke Fan
05-22-2010, 03:29 AM
Does Duke get a pass next year? I am not talking about an UNC type year, but let's say barring injuries, a Sweet 16 appearance and a loss, or a second round NCAA loss.

After the Giants unexpectantly won the Super Bowl, I think that the media and many fans gave them a pass the following year. Is college basketball the same or are the expectations so high next year that a repeat performance or at least a Final 4 appearance is what we as Duke fans will only be satisfied with?

ice-9
05-22-2010, 06:06 AM
New season, new team.

Just as a bad season doesn't raise expectations for a new one, nor should a good season lower expectations.

This team is capable of repeating and a Final Four is a realistic goal. I would be happy with an Elite Eight or better, but would be proud regardless of the outcome as long as this team puts in their best.

CameronCrazy'11
05-22-2010, 06:47 AM
People are still going to be bummed if we lose our last game next year.

David
05-22-2010, 08:03 AM
Does Duke get a pass next year? I am not talking about an UNC type year, but let's say barring injuries, a Sweet 16 appearance and a loss, or a second round NCAA loss.

After the Giants unexpectantly won the Super Bowl, I think that the media and many fans gave them a pass the following year. Is college basketball the same or are the expectations so high next year that a repeat performance or at least a Final 4 appearance is what we as Duke fans will only be satisfied with?

Think back to Duke's tourny losses in 2002 and 1993. Most fans were pretty bummed and the media didn't cut those teams much slack either. A 'grace period' sounds great in theory, but I don't think it works in practice all that often.

As an aside, I am surprised to learn the NY Giants fans and media gave them a pass following their super bowl win. Boston teams have won championships in the NBA, NFL and MLB since I moved here and their fans have not cut the teams much slack the following year. I wonder if the Giants' pass had something to do with injuries or maybe the upset nature of their super bowl win?

Ultrarunner
05-22-2010, 10:41 AM
New season, new team.

Just as a bad season doesn't raise expectations for a new one, nor should a good season lower expectations.


While I agree that it is a new season/team, this is Duke. Expectations are always high rather than realistic and, if we include the press, excessive. For evidence you don't need to look any further than the Duke "slump" - Duke had impressive seasons, played to their potential and consistently made the NCAA's. In short, it wasn't a slump at all except by the inflated standards to which Duke is held.

And this was despite the adjustment to the early entry/1&done world, transfers and injuries. Each contributed to the lack of FF seasons and help build the narrative of a slumping Duke.

Having won the NCAA banner this year - I do so like that, especially with a team that lacked the "athletes" to compete but understood so well that basketball is a team game - Duke has re-established the propostion that they belong at the top of the BB world. Not near the top but at the top. You can expect that anything less than a FF appearance will be considered a "down" year for the team despite breaking in a freshman point guard, having serious questions in the post and intergrating the other freshmen and Seth. If everything else breaks perfectly, as it did this year, the team can win it all again (I don't like repeat in this case as an important core of the team has graduated - the current Devils will need to win their own ring).

I agree with jyuwono, all I want is to see them play to their abiltiy and to continue the Duke tradition of playing with honor, courage and class.

But I'm not counting on getting a pass from anybody. We're Duke - we don't get "passes" - and we don't want one.

yancem
05-22-2010, 11:00 AM
For me personally, I would be less critical of an early exit from the tournament next season because of the NC this year. I was much less bummed by the Penguins loss to the the Canadians a week ago because of the Stanley Cup they won last year.

That being said, I think I am in the minority. Most fans have huge expectations for next year (I admittedly to as well) and are looking at next season as chance to truly shut up the critics. An early exit would bring the naysayers back to the forefront and therefore annoy us Duke fans.

The media won't cut Duke any slack either. Why? Because most of them think that this season was a fluke and that we didn't deserve the championship. An early exit next season would give them ammunition to say see, last year doesn't count, Duke is still not the same program they were a decade ago.

Big crock of #$@#% but that is what will be said. Hopefully, things come together and Duke can at least get back to the F4 if not repeat. But if they don't, I still have my NC shirt from this year and the media can't take it away from me!

DreAllDay
05-22-2010, 12:02 PM
It would be one thing if we lost 5 starters and we were going to be young and inexperienced next year, then you could justify an early tourney exit. That's simply just not the case, we'll have a deeper and more talented lineup next year and not to mention the F4 MOP returning, a rarity in today's game. Given this and the fact that Coach K has repeated before, expectations should be through the roof... Winning it all last year was phenomenal, but let's not be too satisfied... we want another!

Devilsfan
05-22-2010, 12:06 PM
Someone above got it exactly right. I for one will be "bummed" if we lose our last game next year. We might lose a few before that but NOT our last game. We will miss the basketball I.Q. of Scheyer (it's in his genes), but gain a terrific new point guard, and a redshirt with a preety good basketball heritage.

jimsumner
05-22-2010, 12:33 PM
I'm reasonably certain that the 2010-11 Duke men's basketball program will be subject to the high expectations to which it has become accustomed.

HaveFunExpectToWin
05-22-2010, 12:42 PM
I'm not sure I completely understand the original question, but I'm pretty sure that Duke hasn't been given a pass by anyone (especially the press) anytime recently.

G man
05-22-2010, 12:44 PM
A jayhawk fan and I were talking about this just the other day. While I think we will not get slack from the media or other fans what about us? Where are expectations? He said that after a national title we as fans are not allowed to complain about the team for five years. He thought after that length of time it is fair game. I would argue that a bit. Now if you were a team like florida who just one back to back, and then spent a couple of seasons playing in the NIT I would be unhappy, but until that happens which it won't everything is all good in the hood.

moonpie23
05-22-2010, 01:05 PM
one of the great lessons learned (and taught) this past year was that each team is unto itself.....yes, duke has an incredible legacy, but each team will rise and fall from it's on make up...

2010 team had THIER own identity...



that being said......i am stoked about next year...:D

kingboozer
05-22-2010, 05:15 PM
As long as we beat UNC, contend for or win the ACC Tournament, and get past at least the 2nd round of the tournament, I'll be a happy camper. This title will absolutely tide me over for a while, but if they wanted to repeat, who am I to stop them??:D

Jarhead
05-22-2010, 05:31 PM
As long as we beat UNC, contend for or win the ACC Tournament, and get past at least the 2nd round of the tournament, I'll be a happy camper. This title will absolutely tide me over for a while, but if they wanted to repeat, who am I to stop them??:D
I'll be happy as long as we avoid the UNC collapse, and I predict that we may not repeat as champions, but we will rattle lots of cages, and add to Coach K's legacy. I have no right to demand any more than that, or even that.

gumbomoop
05-22-2010, 05:56 PM
You can expect that anything less than a FF appearance will be considered a "down" year for the team despite breaking in a freshman point guard, having serious questions in the post and intergrating the other freshmen and Seth. If everything else breaks perfectly, as it did this year, the team can win it all again.

I certainly agree with much of your good post, so have excerpted only the short section from which I dissent. I am not oblivious to the possible contradiction - mine, not yours - in agreeing with the spirit of your overall post, but disagreeing with some of the key rationales underlying your viewpoint.

1. frosh guard - True, literally, but misguided in this particular: KI is not any 'ol frosh PG, nor even a merely very good one. He's real deal, enough that K has already publicly admitted to the KI-Wow! factor.

2. serious ?s in post - Can't disagree with you that among the very few ?s next year concern MPs; but every team in America would kill to have MPs as their post "problems." Virtually every one, maybe literally no exceptions.

3. integrating frosh - KI, see #1 above. As for JH, TT, and even transfer CF, true again, not clear how quickly they'll get up to speed, but virtually all posters would have those 3 among players 8-11 in depth chart. So if only one of them, say, by late season, is contributing, that the others haven't fully integrated would not cause serious problems.

4. Seth - all evidence - call it rumor if you prefer, but the info comes substantially from comments made by 3 or 4 of the guys who faced him every day in practice - suggests that Seth is already half-integrated. Biggest debate on this board has not concerned whether Seth will fit in quickly enough, but whether he will start or be 6th man.

5. break perfectly - I'd say things broke close to perfectly in '09-'10; but for '10-'11 the end-season will require some breaks, but not so many.

On the overall issue of house money metaphor, yes, I'd admit that my expectations are FF. I'd personally be utterly inconsistent otherwise, as I was high on the '09-'10 version from preseason on, became more convinced that they were "weirdly" good by mid-late-season, was pushed even further toward optimism by KenPom aficionados, predicted/suggested in a post right after UVa game that they'd end up 35-5. Given all that, and the end result, it seems just obvious to me that, on paper, Duke is among the 3 preseason favorites to get to Houston [which, btw, was the site of Duke's regional wins over Purdue and Baylor - a "sign" of NCAA "bias" in favor of Duke already. I'm kidding. But Duke-Haters won't be, when they awaken to this latest conspiracy].

To any poster who finds my optimism re '10-'11 over the edge, ok, fair enough, but you really need to be concerned about airowe, who's flying way out there ahead of me. Either that or airowe is just trying - so far unsuccessfully, as far as I can tell - to push somebody's buttons. [Wait: somebody's buttons other than mine.....]

Kedsy
05-22-2010, 06:06 PM
Considering the unprecedented success we Duke fans have been able to enjoy over the past 25+ years with Coach K, we should feel like we're "playing with house money" every year.

Ultrarunner
05-22-2010, 08:20 PM
I certainly agree with much of your good post, so have excerpted only the short section from which I dissent. I am not oblivious to the possible contradiction - mine, not yours - in agreeing with the spirit of your overall post, but disagreeing with some of the key rationales underlying your viewpoint.

We don't really disagree that much. I'm cautiously optimistic and you're irrational exuberant. We both think that Duke has an excellent shot at winning the whole shebang again next year.


1. frosh guard - True, literally, but misguided in this particular: KI is not any 'ol frosh PG, nor even a merely very good one. He's real deal, enough that K has already publicly admitted to the KI-Wow! factor.

No disagreement here except that he's yet to play a college game. Freshman point guards to not have a long history of winning the NCAA. I think that Kyrie has an exceptionally high ceiling. He does need to improve his defense.


2. serious ?s in post - Can't disagree with you that among the very few ?s next year concern MPs; but every team in America would kill to have MPs as their post "problems." Virtually every one, maybe literally no exceptions.

I'm expecting both the MP's to step up big (I think Miles is better than he is given credit for and that little jumper of his from the elbow can be a really interesting offensive weapon). Ryan hopefully has added some strength and will be able to fill in with quality minutes which will add a very interesting dimension to the team. Josh appears to have a great attitude and, if he can help on defense, will be an asset right away. On paper, the frontline looks good but they have to prove it on the court, 40 minutes every game.


3. integrating frosh - KI, see #1 above. As for JH, TT, and even transfer CF, true again, not clear how quickly they'll get up to speed, but virtually all posters would have those 3 among players 8-11 in depth chart. So if only one of them, say, by late season, is contributing, that the others haven't fully integrated would not cause serious problems.

Player #8 on the 2009-2010 team played a huge role in the Baylor game at the end of the first half. Without Andre, there's an excellent chance we lose that game. At some point, we'll need some of these guys to step up. Someone gets injured (and we were very lucky in this regard last year!), they move up in the rotation. Since Coach K has a history of bringing in quality people, I have high expectations for these young men to buy into the team concept. That's not always the case at other programs. :D


4. Seth - all evidence - call it rumor if you prefer, but the info comes substantially from comments made by 3 or 4 of the guys who faced him every day in practice - suggests that Seth is already half-integrated. Biggest debate on this board has not concerned whether Seth will fit in quickly enough, but whether he will start or be 6th man.

Not too concerned about Seth. He's had a year to adapt into the system. We still need to get him into the rotation. I am very excited to see him finally step onto the court for us.


5. break perfectly - I'd say things broke close to perfectly in '09-'10; but for '10-'11 the end-season will require some breaks, but not so many.

On the overall issue of house money metaphor, yes, I'd admit that my expectations are FF. I'd personally be utterly inconsistent otherwise, as I was high on the '09-'10 version from preseason on, became more convinced that they were "weirdly" good by mid-late-season, was pushed even further toward optimism by KenPom aficionados, predicted/suggested in a post right after UVa game that they'd end up 35-5. Given all that, and the end result, it seems just obvious to me that, on paper, Duke is among the 3 preseason favorites to get to Houston [which, btw, was the site of Duke's regional wins over Purdue and Baylor - a "sign" of NCAA "bias" in favor of Duke already. I'm kidding. But Duke-Haters won't be, when they awaken to this latest conspiracy].

To any poster who finds my optimism re '10-'11 over the edge, ok, fair enough, but you really need to be concerned about airowe, who's flying way out there ahead of me. Either that or airowe is just trying - so far unsuccessfully, as far as I can tell - to push somebody's buttons. [Wait: somebody's buttons other than mine.....]

I'm not completely rational so I'll join you there on the edge. I expect to see Duke in Houston. But it's going to take a lot of hard work, the team playing team ball (that's where I expect Nolan and Kyle to shine - leading the way for the team) and a few lucky breaks for them to end next season with a win.

Last year's team was a very special group of young men who had more character than talent (and they are very talented) and had enormous trust in each other. That is hard to replicate. They are my favorite of all the Duke teams in the 30 years or so that I've been a fan. Other Duke teams had more talent (including some that didn't win the championship) but none matched the heart shown by the 2009-2010 Blue Devils.

OldPhiKap
05-22-2010, 08:36 PM
No one gave the Heels a pass this year. Why would we expect one?

If the team stays healthy and gives every ounce of effort, I'll be satisfied regardless of the results. And we have been very fortunate at Duke to have a coach that seems to get maximum effort in almost every game and every possession.

Most rational Carolina fans I have talked to were not so bummed at the losses as the fact that the team just gave up and did not progress (until the NIT). It seems that is the measuring stick by which I judge our team, and I have rarely seen a Duke team fail to scrap for everything they could. As far as wins and losses in the tourney -- there is a lot of luck involved no matter how good the team.

cptnflash
05-22-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm reasonably certain that the 2010-11 Duke men's basketball program will be subject to the high expectations to which it has become accustomed.

And then some. Most people on this board are taking an ACC title for granted and talking about the Final Four, and possible NC. Andy Katz has us as the projected preseason #1. Heck, even Pat Forde, who has demonstrated a fairly consistent anti-Duke bias, has us at #2. Does anyone really think that if we don't win the ACC, or we get eliminated in the first or second weekend of the NCAA's, that the hand-wringing and face scrunching and "what's wrong with Duke" chatter won't be long and loud, from us and everyone else?

The whole thing about not being able to complain for five years after your team wins a title came from ESPN writer Bill Simmons, a lifelong Red Sox fan. It was written before the Sox won the World Series in 2004. At that point, Red Sox nation was so desperate for a title that it seemed inconceivable not to offer the team a grace period afterwards.

But Duke is not the Red Sox (thank God!). There will be no grace period, expectations for next year are already higher than they've been in at least a decade, and as soon as we lose a couple the crisis watch will begin. The only place expectations are probably in reasonably good shape is in the locker room, because K is there.

gumbomoop
05-22-2010, 11:15 PM
Does anyone really think that if we don't win the ACC, or we get eliminated in the first or second weekend of the NCAA's, that the hand-wringing and face scrunching and "what's wrong with Duke" chatter won't be long and loud, from us and everyone else?

Although I might dispute part of this - on grounds of exactly when in the NCAAT Duke might lose - I will instead use the spirit of your point to say something else. I say the following with a smile in my heart, hoping to point out a "gotta see the humor in this" phenomenon.

Re chatter among us that agonizes, after virtually any loss, about what went wrong, what amazes me is the friendly fire even when things are going swimmingly our way. We pride ourselves, I think appropriately, for the fairness and relative calm and civility of the atmosphere on this board.

Still, in the glowing aftermath of as delightful a NC as is imaginable, we, including me, have fairly gone out of our way to chide each other in ways profound and petty. We gotta see the humor in this, for it's nuts. Hilariously nutty, so long as we - fanatics all - appreciate our collective obsession.

[Nothing in the above paragraphs should be interpreted as a promise to behave in a fashion other than fanatically obsessed and self-confidently boorish.]

MarkD83
05-23-2010, 11:23 AM
Every year there are several things I put on my wish list as a fan of Duke basketball.

1. Beat UNC
2. Win the ACC regular season
3. Win the ACC Tournament
4. Sweet 16
5. Final Four
6. National Championship

However, I don't set my expectations until January 1. At that time we can see how the talent on the team meshes together and how other teams in the ACC and the nation might match up against Duke.

For 2010-11, on paper Duke looks good but until they play a few games I won't set expectations.

As far as giving them a pass for a few years, you have to look at this from a player's perspective. Nolan and Kyle have one more chance to acheive the 6 items on the list above. I don't think either of them are "taking a year off".

gumbomoop
05-23-2010, 01:24 PM
Every year there are several things I put on my wish list as a fan of Duke basketball.

1. Beat UNC
2. Win the ACC regular season
3. Win the ACC Tournament
4. Sweet 16
5. Final Four
6. National Championship

Your post reminds me to ask something I'm curious about. Namely, what's at the very top of posters' wish lists, beating UNC or winning NC? I have a feeling this has been asked before, but I couldn't find a thread using the Search function.

I'll ask it this way. If in any particular season [not referring specifically to '10-'11, just any generic season, which by definition means both Duke and UNC are top-10 teams] the bball gods gave you [any poster who cares to answer] the following agonizing choice, which would you choose?

- beat UNC 3 times, but not win NC

OR

- lose to UNC 3 times, but win NC

Of course this is all hypothetical, just a game. I pose it this way to get to a joy v. pain question: Would winning a NC compensate for the galling dismay of losing multiple times to the Heels? Or would a season that includes beating the Heels 3 times be the most joyous imaginable, no matter what else happens?

Was 82-50 more joyous than 52-50? Or maybe that doesn't count, as this year's Heels were just not ....... you know.

basket1544
05-23-2010, 01:29 PM
For me, the National Championship is more important, but the UNC win is sweeter and more fun. National Championship is cake; UNC win is icing.

ricks68
05-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Is college basketball the same or are the expectations so high next year that a repeat performance or at least a Final 4 appearance is what we as Duke fans will only be satisfied with?

I think that, as a true Duke fan, I am satisfied when our team puts forth it's finest effort, no matter what the outcome. I would surely be very disappointed, but I would still be satisfied.:)

ricks

mgtr
05-23-2010, 06:40 PM
[/I]

I think that, as a true Duke fan, I am satisfied when our team puts forth it's finest effort, no matter what the outcome. I would surely be very disappointed, but I would still be satisfied.:)

ricks

Well said, sir, well said indeed. I think that some of us may still underestimate the abilities and contributions of Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek.
I was always a big Scheyer fan, but very late to the party on Thomas and Zoubek. Replacing the role of those three will be beyond difficult. KI is a great point guard. Will he be able to replace Scheyer? Questionable in the first year.
Can the Plumlees step up from role players to first line defenders? I don't know. Can anyone provide the intangibles that Thomas did? I would say no, but then I didn't think that Thomas could do that either.
I am ready for the season to start! Oh, yeah, first we have to hear how fantastic all the new guys are in pickup games. That will drag on for a long, long time.

davekay1971
05-24-2010, 08:22 AM
Duke is going into the season with high expectations, based on the combination of returning players, incoming talent, and the fact that we're Duke. The media will treat our performance accordingly. Duke-haters will, per routine, overemphasize every failure and dismiss every success. None of that will be much different simply because we won the NC this year.

One thing is certain: Coach K, his staff, and the team, will not in any way be satisfied with having won it last year.

For me, I desperately want Duke to win it all, for several reasons.
1) Kyle and Nolan came back, and I would love for them to accomplish their goal. Two really, really deserving guys.
2) Winning 5 national championships would further remove K from the rest of the pack and leave only he and Wooden in the discussion of best coach of all time.
3) It would tie us with that other program down the road in NCs, and then we could have the fun of watching Hole fans try to claim they're still one up because of that Helms Award. Always amusing.
4) I'm an insane Duke fan and want to win it all every year.

devildownunder
05-24-2010, 11:26 PM
Your post reminds me to ask something I'm curious about. Namely, what's at the very top of posters' wish lists, beating UNC or winning NC? I have a feeling this has been asked before, but I couldn't find a thread using the Search function.

I'll ask it this way. If in any particular season [not referring specifically to '10-'11, just any generic season, which by definition means both Duke and UNC are top-10 teams] the bball gods gave you [any poster who cares to answer] the following agonizing choice, which would you choose?

- beat UNC 3 times, but not win NC

OR

- lose to UNC 3 times, but win NC

Of course this is all hypothetical, just a game. I pose it this way to get to a joy v. pain question: Would winning a NC compensate for the galling dismay of losing multiple times to the Heels? Or would a season that includes beating the Heels 3 times be the most joyous imaginable, no matter what else happens?

Was 82-50 more joyous than 52-50? Or maybe that doesn't count, as this year's Heels were just not ....... you know.

Winning the national championship is an effective salve for the pain of finishing 0-for-X against UNC in any season. But I think it's probably the only effective salve. Primarily because it would necessarily happen long after those unc games had been played.

Time heals (most) wounds.

Thinking about it, i probably should say "unexpected tournament success" is an effective salve... If a team has a dominant season otherwise, comes into the tourney with high expectations and wins it all, I'll be thrilled, but still just a bit annoyed about losing to the 'holes. I wouldn't be complaining about it or calling out the team for it but whenever I thought back to the season, it would still stick in my craw. For example, I'm still a bit miffed that we didn't sweep unc in '91 or '92. Mind you, not criticising the program for that or anything, just really, really hate losing to those people.

Now, on the other hand, if we're having kind of an average season, get swept by UNC while they are "up", then go on an unexpected run to the title -- or even just the final four -- I'd be far too elated by the unexpected success to care about losing to unc waaaay back in the reg. season. Plus, winning it when they think they're going to do it and that we're out of the picture is almost like a victory over them anyway. :)

devildownunder
05-24-2010, 11:37 PM
I think it depends on how you define a pass. Most people will expect Duke to beat a lot of people very soundly next year. If we lose a few early, or even if we're just having a lot of reasonably close games (which i can see happening, with all the changed roles and new faces) there will be some heat. But I don't think people, outside of haters, will consider the season a failure if we don't win it all or make the Final Four. It's hard to say "K can't win in the tournament anymore" when he's sitting there with a 2010 NC ring.

gep
05-24-2010, 11:53 PM
... It's hard to say "K can't win in the tournament anymore" when he's sitting there with a 2010 NC ring.

and more so with an "alarmingly unathletic" team without a lottery pick:D

Kedsy
05-25-2010, 12:13 AM
Time heals (most) wounds.

Wait a minute. I thought time wounds most Heels?

devildownunder
05-25-2010, 01:17 AM
Wait a minute. I thought time wounds most Heels?


Nice.