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Osiagledknarf
05-18-2010, 12:43 AM
He is truly one of my favorite players on the Duke team, and certainly one of the guys that has the most potential on this team to be an impact player on this team. Some things I want some thoughts about

- His lack of bulk.. He seems to be extremely thin and does not have the bulk which is sorta necessary to be able to cover big 3's and smaller 4's. I see this as a need this offseason in order to be able to compete on the defensive end more affectively.

- What role do you think he will be used in? I think he will be the primary backup at the 3, sometime at the 2 and get some big minutes at both, if not start a couple games if Coach put Singler at the power forward spot.

What do you think his ceiling is this year and in future years? I think he has the talent/ ability to be a middle of the first round pick or high lottery depending on how he does from here on out of course, but that's how I feel of him of right now.. Could change either way.

Dukefan4Life
05-18-2010, 01:13 AM
I think Andre coming in a year early and the minutes that he has given he did pretty well. I think he has a very good jumper but i would like to see him take it to the rack a little more. He Will be good for us coming of the bench and giving us a spark on offense. He needs to Get better on the defensive side to earn more minutes though..

Coballs
05-18-2010, 01:23 AM
He is truly one of my favorite players on the Duke team, and certainly one of the guys that has the most potential on this team to be an impact player on this team. Some things I want some thoughts about

- His lack of bulk.. He seems to be extremely thin and does not have the bulk which is sorta necessary to be able to cover big 3's and smaller 4's. I see this as a need this offseason in order to be able to compete on the defensive end more affectively.

- What role do you think he will be used in? I think he will be the primary backup at the 3, sometime at the 2 and get some big minutes at both, if not start a couple games if Coach put Singler at the power forward spot.

What do you think his ceiling is this year and in future years? I think he has the talent/ ability to be a middle of the first round pick or high lottery depending on how he does from here on out of course, but that's how I feel of him of right now.. Could change either way.

He'll be a key contributor next year and eventually a starter in future seasons. I see instant offense coming off the bench, and a dangerous deep threat...especially when he gets more run and becomes more confident with his stroke. But what makes you think he will ever need to guard big 3's or smaller 4's? He's a 2.

ElSid
05-18-2010, 08:46 AM
Defense will determine.

What he offers that none of our other guards do is relatively good height at the 2 spot. At 6'4" he's at least 2" taller than Smith, Curry or Irving and he can jump. I expect to see him used more for this reason when match ups make sense.

I don't think we'll need him taking it to the rack much. He should have that in his back pocket, but there will be three players on the team better than he is at dribble drive and kick...and he is probably one of the best on the team to be on the receiving end of the kick...that didn't come out right, but you get the idea.

I hope his attitude is in the right place because it's going to be a fight for minutes for some time. Loaded next year. If Rivers commits and Irving stays, loaded the year after that. By his senior year, though, he could be a major offensive go-to guy. I would hate to see him discouraged and transfer. Don't know the stats, but I would bet that the rate of transfer for freshman who are part of a national championship team is very low.

Reddevil
05-18-2010, 09:28 AM
He is truly one of my favorite players on the Duke team, and certainly one of the guys that has the most potential on this team to be an impact player on this team. Some things I want some thoughts about

- His lack of bulk.. He seems to be extremely thin and does not have the bulk which is sorta necessary to be able to cover big 3's and smaller 4's. I see this as a need this offseason in order to be able to compete on the defensive end more affectively.

- What role do you think he will be used in? I think he will be the primary backup at the 3, sometime at the 2 and get some big minutes at both, if not start a couple games if Coach put Singler at the power forward spot.

What do you think his ceiling is this year and in future years? I think he has the talent/ ability to be a middle of the first round pick or high lottery depending on how he does from here on out of course, but that's how I feel of him of right now.. Could change either way.

Wow, I thought Andre was as beefy a freshman guard as you'll see. I know I'm dating myself, but freshman used to be pretty scrawny, and part of the joy being a fan was watching them grow through the years. Andre is a pretty big guy. I think he will be one of those guys that contribute more each year, and his playing time will be commensurate with his defensive prowess. I see him as one of those yearly progression guys (don't nitpick - they all are, but you know what I mean) that will benefit from all the talent around him. The sooner he can become a lock down defender, and I think he eventually will, the more he can assert himself as a factor. Fresh legs in the backcourt all game long is what he can offer, which is not to be underestimated.

Tim1515
05-18-2010, 09:46 AM
I also think Andre has a good build for college ball...especially for a freshman.

IMO Dawk is getting overlooked going into this season. Obviously there is a lot of hype around Irving and Curry...not to mention big minutes for the Plumlees....but....before this kid's life took an unfortunate turn he was building into a legit scorer. I wouldn't be surprised if Andre is the player who most outperforms expectations next year.

dukeballboy88
05-18-2010, 10:24 AM
I think Andre is gonna be a better Trajan Langdon. If you watch him on you tube he is much more than a shooter. he can create and post and he can flat out dunk on you if you are in the way. I cant wait to see the total package.

Osiagledknarf
05-18-2010, 10:43 AM
He'll be a key contributor next year and eventually a starter in future seasons. I see instant offense coming off the bench, and a dangerous deep threat...especially when he gets more run and becomes more confident with his stroke. But what makes you think he will ever need to guard big 3's or smaller 4's? He's a 2.

He is a 2/3, and if we go small in games he may very well have to guard a 3 or a 4 in that set. I just would like to beef up a little bit and with his athletic ability would be to guard them in that set which I think we will be going to a lot this season.

I agree with you on his role this year. I think this season he could be similar to what Danny Green was for UNC in his junior/senior season. Very solid player who will be able to contribute on both end of the floor, mostly as an offensive weapon.

jv001
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
He is a 2/3, and if we go small in games he may very well have to guard a 3 or a 4 in that set. I just would like to beef up a little bit and with his athletic ability would be to guard them in that set which I think we will be going to a lot this season.

I agree with you on his role this year. I think this season he could be similar to what Danny Green was for UNC in his junior/senior season. Very solid player who will be able to contribute on both end of the floor, mostly as an offensive weapon.

Andre is big enough for the 2/3 position. What he needs is to get stronger. Not so much that he hurts his pure shooting form, but muscle up somewhat. As another poster stated, he really came to Duke a year early(academically). Dre got better defensively as the year went on and that helps him with pt. If he can regain that shooting touch he showed at the beginning of the year, he will play a lot. Go Duke!

Big Pappa
05-18-2010, 11:08 AM
He is truly one of my favorite players on the Duke team, and certainly one of the guys that has the most potential on this team to be an impact player on this team.

- His lack of bulk.. He seems to be extremely thin and does not have the bulk which is sorta necessary to be able to cover big 3's and smaller 4's.

Although I agree that he could have a break-out year it will certainly be difficult with the other weapons we have.

I do disagree that he has a lack of bulk. He is one of the most cut freshman guards I remember seeing at Duke in awhile. His size is actually his biggest asset IMO. He is virtually the only one that allows us to move Kyle to the four while he is at the three because of his size. Against a normal sized team we just cannot play 3 guys on the perimeter under 6'2". At 6'4" or 6'5" (depending on where you look) he gives us the option to play Kyle at the 4 because he will be able to guard a 6'6" or 6'7" SF much better than Seth or Nolan.

He will also see time at the 2 where he can play his more natural position of shooting guard. I see Dre as a guy who could go for 20 any night, but will average around 8-10 for the season.

airowe
05-18-2010, 11:25 AM
His size is actually his biggest asset IMO.

More than his shot?!?

CameronBornAndBred
05-18-2010, 11:44 AM
He's bulkier than Kelly. Ryan is the one that I want to see put on some muscle.

Devil Spawn
05-18-2010, 11:45 AM
6'4", 190 pounds isn't that small. He's fairly barrel chested. Remember that dribble drive dunk he did mid-season? (Can't remember who we were playing). He went straight down the lane, skied, and slammed hard, real hard. It was almost Danté Jones/Gerald Henderson-esque. He seems plenty strong to me.

He's just young and needs development. Nice kid and I hope his tragedy doesn't hold him back. I can't imagine what he's gone through and he's had to study and play ball as well. That's a big load.

-bdbd
05-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Although I agree that he could have a break-out year it will certainly be difficult with the other weapons we have.

I do disagree that he has a lack of bulk. He is one of the most cut freshman guards I remember seeing at Duke in awhile. His size is actually his biggest asset IMO. He is virtually the only one that allows us to move Kyle to the four while he is at the three because of his size. Against a normal sized team we just cannot play 3 guys on the perimeter under 6'2". At 6'4" or 6'5" (depending on where you look) he gives us the option to play Kyle at the 4 because he will be able to guard a 6'6" or 6'7" SF much better than Seth or Nolan.

He will also see time at the 2 where he can play his more natural position of shooting guard. I see Dre as a guy who could go for 20 any night, but will average around 8-10 for the season.

I agree with Big Pappa, with maybe the exception of the "bulk is his greatest assest" comment - Airowe is right that nothing trumps 'dre's shooting. But he really is a more important cog in next year's team than most reealize. K likes to play "his best 5", and that means we'll use our tremendous quality/depth at guard a lot. So 3-guard sets are essentially a given, with frequency dependent on several things including opponents' size, speed and other strengths. Positionally, maybe our weakest spot will be at the 3, insofar as we lack a true classic SF in the Grant Hill mode (6'6" - 6'8" athletic and quick), and could have difficulty matching up with that sort of a player. Kyle may fill that void some by starting at the 3 (I personally think we're overall stronger with him at the 4), but we will need 'dre and maybe some Felix (and Hairston?) to guard the HB's of the world.

I think that it is also in 'dre's interewst to bulk up as, there may be a bit less competition at the 3 for playing time (vs. the 2 ....Curry, Smith, some Irving).

I can't wait to see the "Mad Chemist" (K) at work with this particular combination of players. Should be a fun year to watch develop.



:D

Saratoga2
05-18-2010, 11:56 AM
There have been numerous posts speculating on PT, with lots of opinions. My own is the Plumlees will get 25 each, with Smith getting around 32 and Singler around 34. Both Smith and Singler could get more but will probably be rested some with Duke up by double digits in many games. I feel the point guard role will fall to Irving for around 25 while Curry and Smith and even Thornton could get some time at point. In addition, Curry might well sub in for Smith. Singler may spend some time at the 4 although I doubt if it exceeds 5 minutes, since both Kelly and Hairston look capable of filling that need. That leaves about 10 minutes at the 3 and perhaps a few minutes of PT at the 2. That is what Dawkins is likely playing for and I have not as yet mentioned Carrick, who is probably going to see time at the 3, if his defense is as good as billed.

Injuries may change PT during the year, as well as performance of individual players. I just think it is so hard for the coaches to find PT for so many talented individuals. Hope that no one gets frustrated with the available PT.

badgerbd
05-18-2010, 12:06 PM
He's got a long way to go, IMO. He's easy to root for and has a sweet shot, but...

He has to learn to move without the ball and play defense. He was way way below par wrt both of those last year.

Duke of Nashville
05-18-2010, 12:09 PM
6'4", 190 pounds isn't that small. He's fairly barrel chested. Remember that dribble drive dunk he did mid-season? (Can't remember who we were playing). He went straight down the lane, skied, and slammed hard, real hard. It was almost Danté Jones/Gerald Henderson-esque. He seems plenty strong to me.

He's just young and needs development. Nice kid and I hope his tragedy doesn't hold him back. I can't imagine what he's gone through and he's had to study and play ball as well. That's a big load.

The one that I remember was for the ACC championship game. GT.

DukieInBrasil
05-18-2010, 12:10 PM
IMO Dawk is getting overlooked going into this season. Obviously there is a lot of hype around Irving and Curry...not to mention big minutes for the Plumlees....but....before this kid's life took an unfortunate turn he was building into a legit scorer. I wouldn't be surprised if Andre is the player who most outperforms expectations next year.

I agree about outperforming the expectations, Andre was averaging 10+ ppg in the OOC, which was pre-tragedy, and then took a while to find himself again in the ACC schedule. He had a handful of moderately impressive performances late in the year, which makes me think that he'll be able to make improvements on his game going into the defense of our National Championship.
I tend to agree withe others in saying that I don't see Andre playing the 4 at all, and only occasionally at the 3. No need for Andre to bulk up, strength is always good and would help him finish in the lane, but a) that's not Andre's strong suit and b) that's not what the team needs most from him.

ChicagoCrazy84
05-18-2010, 01:47 PM
Andre has the potential to become the X-Factor for this team. Either him or Carrick Felix because of their athleticism. What I want to see from Andre is a little more energy on the court and constant movement. A poster earlier said he needs to learn to move without the ball and this is absolutely true! He can't stand in the corner and wait for someone to create an open shot for him. He needs to be the aggressor and once he has the confidence to do that, he will be so much better. Also, no one really mentioned his ball handling, but this was another area that he needs improvement in. He doesn't need to be KI or anything, but if he can learn to handle the ball better (in traffic) he will be a tough matchup. I would love for Andre to become a starter/6th man and I think he'll use this summer wisely because he knows what's up. He hasn't been living in a cave or anything so he knows the talent we have coming back and I know he is aware of his weaknesses.

Osiagledknarf
05-18-2010, 01:54 PM
He's got a long way to go, IMO. He's easy to root for and has a sweet shot, but...

He has to learn to move without the ball and play defense. He was way way below par wrt both of those last year.

I think he improved on both of these as the year progressed last year. He gave us great minutes in the Baylor game and came off a couple of screens and hit a couple of 3's with that sweet stroke. I think this is an area we gotta watch as well, but he is not as far behind as you are saying.

As far as defensively, he needs to gain some more lateral quickness. He seems to get beat often because of this. He certainly has the athletic ability to be a good defender, but lacks that quickness and footwork to be an affective player at this time. This I saw slight improvement with as the season went on, but not to the point where I would say that it is one of his assets.

gumbomoop
05-18-2010, 04:06 PM
I agree with Big Pappa, with maybe the exception of the "bulk is his greatest assest" comment - Airowe is right that nothing trumps 'dre's shooting. But he really is a more important cog in next year's team than most reealize. K likes to play "his best 5", and that means we'll use our tremendous quality/depth at guard a lot. So 3-guard sets are essentially a given, with frequency dependent on several things including opponents' size, speed and other strengths. Positionally, maybe our weakest spot will be at the 3, insofar as we lack a true classic SF in the Grant Hill mode (6'6" - 6'8" athletic and quick), and could have difficulty matching up with that sort of a player. Kyle may fill that void some by starting at the 3 (I personally think we're overall stronger with him at the 4), but we will need 'dre and maybe some Felix (and Hairston?) to guard the HB's of the world.

There's a solid consensus on this [emboldened phrases] D issue, to which I dissent, if only mildly.

While I do believe KS will play the 4 in [but only in] close late-game situations, I believe that our 3-guard lineup will, 30+ mpg, include KS at 3. But KS will surely get a bit more rest this season, so, given 3-guards, who guards the opposing 3, who, say, is 6'5-7", among NS, SC, and KI. [Note that for purposes of dissenting from this D-problem, I accept that it looks like a problem when we play 3 relatively small guards. It might still be a problem when DD is among the 3-guards, less so when CF is the 3. But even for purposes of my mild dissent, I grant a "worse case scenario."]

But even when, for the relatively few mpg that we have a small perimeter-D, few teams will be able to exploit us, because:

1. It takes good coaching and smart playing. These teams aren't NBA-exploit-every-mismatch-every-time-down-court.
2. Not lots of mismatch-exploitation generally in college ball, and opposing coaches sure won't be able to game-plan this momentary weakness as their central D-plan v. Duke. They better have more than this to beat Duke.
3. Any opposing player who does in fact seek to mismatch v. a shorter D-guard had better be a good interior passer, because he will be subject to MP-stuffs from help-side every time a mismatch is attempted. I'm tempted to say we should welcome this "problem" for a few minutes each game, just to anticipate the MP-stuffs.

airowe
05-18-2010, 04:16 PM
Our biggest weakness is at the SF position? Where we have the FF MOP and Preseason All-American?

I'm down with that.

Osiagledknarf
05-18-2010, 06:02 PM
I agree with Big Pappa, with maybe the exception of the "bulk is his greatest assest" comment - Airowe is right that nothing trumps 'dre's shooting. But he really is a more important cog in next year's team than most reealize. K likes to play "his best 5", and that means we'll use our tremendous quality/depth at guard a lot. So 3-guard sets are essentially a given, with frequency dependent on several things including opponents' size, speed and other strengths. Positionally, maybe our weakest spot will be at the 3, insofar as we lack a true classic SF in the Grant Hill mode (6'6" - 6'8" athletic and quick), and could have difficulty matching up with that sort of a player. Kyle may fill that void some by starting at the 3 (I personally think we're overall stronger with him at the 4), but we will need 'dre and maybe some Felix (and Hairston?) to guard the HB's of the world.

I think that it is also in 'dre's interewst to bulk up as, there may be a bit less competition at the 3 for playing time (vs. the 2 ....Curry, Smith, some Irving).

I can't wait to see the "Mad Chemist" (K) at work with this particular combination of players. Should be a fun year to watch develop.



:D


Do you watch the games? Do you follow Duke Basketball? Our 3's next year will be Singler, who will most likely be a preseason ACC and first team All American national team. Andre Dawkins who has incredible offensive skills and is a very good athlete who I believe will come in with better lateral quickness on the defensive end, and mind you, he really didn't get going last year due to his sister dieing and having to deal with trauma in his life along with trying to keep up with his school life as well. He will be more knowledge of coach K's system etc.. We also have Carrick Felix as our 3rd SF who is super athletic and is very good defensively... He is a good prospect and would be the primary 6th or 7th man on a lot of teams.

So our 3 is nowhere the weakness of this team. Depth wise, it is the 5 by far.

fan345678
05-18-2010, 06:17 PM
More than his shot?!?

I'm not sure airowe is very far off here. Scheyer was helped greatly on both ends of the floor by being 6'5". If Andre is consistently guarded by smaller players and vice versa, it'll give him a lot of advantages over our other, shorter guards.

BD80
05-18-2010, 07:22 PM
... I believe that our 3-guard lineup will, 30+ mpg, include KS at 3. ...

Kyle is NOT a guard. A three guard line-up, by definition, does not include Kyle at the 3.

I am confident we will often see three guards in the game at once, meaning three of Kyrie, Nolan, Seth, Dre and Tyler. Coach K really likes an overplaying defense and three guards can really apply pressure - which will generate offense. That means that Kyle will often be a post defender. It also means that the Plumlees won't just inherit the post minutes, they will have to earn minutes and play team defense and get back on defense.

I agree that much of the issue will be defense, and believe that Andre can earn PT at the "3" with on the ball pressure, overplaying passing lanes and QUICK help-side rotation. With a pressure defense it is CRITICAL that the off-ball defenders be ready and able to rotate to help if the on-ball defender gets beat. Good anticipation and quick feet are essential. Dre really showed improvement throughout the year on his anticipation and on rotating to help, and he has for the first time a summer to work on his fundamentals with the Duke staff.

I think that against most teams Kyle will be a more effective post defender than wing defender. Kyle can be the team-unifying kind of defender that we had in Lance. Unless and until Mason and Miles learns to rotate to help from the weak side by getting in position to cut off the ball handler with their hands straight up (rather than always trying to block from behind), Kyle will be the better option in the post on defense. I see the Plumlees getting plenty of PT: there will always be at least one in the game and they will both be in when Kyle gets a rest and they will get some minutes together with Kyle at the 3 (quite likely the starting line-up).

Kyle coming back gives us senior leadership that will be very beneficial to Miles and Mason. Kyle has serious incentive to get the brothers to play defense, which will keep them on the court together and give Kyle the best chance to play on the perimeter where he wants to be (and win back-to-back 'ships). Even when Kyle is a post defender, he will be a primary scoring threat from the wing.

My point is that Andre can readily earn PT as he has the most size of the "guards," giving him an advantage over Nolan or Seth defending the "3," and has shown enough promise on defense to earn a spot in the three guard lineup.

Newton_14
05-18-2010, 07:38 PM
Our biggest weakness is at the SF position? Where we have the FF MOP and Preseason All-American?

I'm down with that.

That was the confusing part to me as well. I kind of thought we had the best SF in the country on our team who just played roughly 36 mpg the entire year at that spot on a 35-5 National Championship team. And late in the year drew the other team's best player as his defensive assignment. How we went from having the best SF in the country to having that spot be our biggest weakness is beyond me? Is Singler sick or something? Hurt?

gumbomoop
05-18-2010, 07:48 PM
Kyle is NOT a guard. A three guard line-up, by definition, does not include Kyle at the 3.

I am confident we will often see three guards in the game at once, meaning three of Kyrie, Nolan, Seth, Dre and Tyler. Coach K really likes an overplaying defense and three guards can really apply pressure - which will generate offense. That means that Kyle will often be a post defender. It also means that the Plumlees won't just inherit the post minutes, they will have to earn minutes and play team defense and get back on defense.

Para 1, tag quote: You're right, I'm wrong. Allow me to try to recover by saying that KS was in '09-'10 and will be in '10-'11 for most of his mpg, a wing. So, though not a guard, as a wing, he was, and I predict, contra your view, will be, a perimeter player, mostly.

Which leads to our disagreement re your para 2: If it's true - as we now agree - that KS is not a guard, then we simply disagree about how much time KS will spend at 4 on D, maybe O. This involves, among other things, how much improvement [including avoiding foul trouble] we'll see in MPs, how much PT RK and/or JH get, etc. Because I anticipate both a bust-out year from both MPs, and real PT for RK, I naturally think KS will not "often" be a post defender.

But I do see your position, acknowledge that it is shared by others. And the more I think about it, I can certainly see that KS may defend in the post a bit more than I've previously thought. Indeed, I agree with you to this extent [and have posted this explicitly]: in close, late-game situations, I think KS may well play the 4 on both O and D. But as I don't actually anticipate lots of "close late-games," I don't think this will lead to KS being "often" a post defender.

Our disagreement involves the fascinating issue of how K will strategize on O and D, given a plethora of talented options.

BD80
05-18-2010, 08:12 PM
... I don't actually anticipate lots of "close late-games," ...

Our disagreement involves the fascinating issue of how K will strategize on O and D, given a plethora of talented options.

Agree and agree.

Big leads will get Ryan, Tyler, Josh, Felix and Andre regular PT, throwing off all those PT predictions!

Big Pappa
05-18-2010, 09:57 PM
More than his shot?!?

Sorry I wasn't around to clarify. Obviously his shooting is his biggest asset to the team, but in my post I was defending him against what the previous poster had said about his (lack of) bulk hurting him on defense. His bulk is his greatest asset to us on the defensive end of the floor.

I also have no idea how the 3 is our weakest position. I agree that the 5 with Miles and Josh probably is at this point.

Cameron
05-19-2010, 12:58 AM
Andre Dawkins who has incredible offensive skills and is a very good athlete who I believe will come in with better lateral quickness on the defensive end, and mind you, he really didn't get going last year due to his sister dieing and having to deal with trauma in his life along with trying to keep up with his school life as well. He will be more knowledge of coach K's system etc..

100% agree.

If Andre's play against Wisconsin last December was any indication -- a game in which Dawkins drilled four consecutive cold-blooded triples in a hostile Kohl Center to bring the Blue Devils back from a double digit deficit and nearly win the game -- we had only just begun to see what type of season was in store for No. 20 before his sister tragically lost her life a couple of weeks later.

Despite this obvious plateau in Andre's development around Christmas time, he still battled through the traumatic season and all of its dark valleys to shine when it counted most, in the ACC and NCAA Tournaments. The seven-point burst against Georgia Tech in the ACC title game was a game-changer and the dunk that capped it pretty much mythic.

And what else can be said of Andre's pair of 25-footers against Baylor as the Bears appeared to be ready to put us away for good in the South Regional finals? Without those shots, order remains unrestored and Cameron with one less banner.

Jim3k
05-19-2010, 02:15 AM
He [Andre] has to learn to move without the ball and play defense. He was way way below par wrt both of those last year.

Both of these observations are not quite accurate. Andre often did not move without the ball, particularly during the tournaments. That was by design. Coach wanted him available at a 3-pt spot. And, you saw what happened in the Baylor game.

As for his defense, his minutes were not very high, but at the end of the season he was as good as anybody with regard to his close guarding. But that was done in short minutes and he was not asked to guard any major opponent -- though once in a while rotations led to that.

I'm not at all worried about his moving without the ball as his playing time increases. H knows the offense and will make it work. And, of course, he's had year to learn the defensive responsibilities. He has the physical tools.

I'm not worried in the slightest.

flyingdutchdevil
05-19-2010, 06:21 AM
I've read a lot of posts that Andre needs to bulk up. Really? He looks pretty buff to me. I am not in the loop, so I'm just speculating. Is this true? Or does he have some baby fat and hence it looks like muscle.

I thought Andrew had a great basketball body, but many seem to disagree.

chrisheery
05-19-2010, 10:49 AM
Agreed. I don't think he needs to bulk up at all. The main thing I would ask him to work on is ballhandling and quickness of his first move. Triple threat, prepared to shoot, ball fake, blow by. He should be able to use his jumper to get into the lane at will. He is a great athlete with good size and excellent strength for a freshman. If he can work on his handle and first step, he would be a pretty unstoppable force on offense.

I think his defense improved a lot as the year went on and I am confident he will be ready to defend at a high level by next year.

COYS
05-19-2010, 11:32 AM
Agreed. I don't think he needs to bulk up at all. The main thing I would ask him to work on is ballhandling and quickness of his first move. Triple threat, prepared to shoot, ball fake, blow by. He should be able to use his jumper to get into the lane at will. He is a great athlete with good size and excellent strength for a freshman. If he can work on his handle and first step, he would be a pretty unstoppable force on offense.

I think his defense improved a lot as the year went on and I am confident he will be ready to defend at a high level by next year.

He also did not have the benefit of a summer in Durham last year in addition to missing out on a year of physical and skill development by skipping his last year of high school eligibility. Add to that his family tragedy and you've got the deck stacked against the kid. I'm not exactly sure how many minutes he'll get next year but I am completely certain that we've only seen glimpses of the player he will become. With better defensive movement and better ballhandling on O, he'll be able to be a big contributor next season. I do think he'll be coming off the bench, but he has the potential to be a big spark plug when he is in the game. Last year, due to the makeup of our team, he wasn't in a position to be in attack mode off the bench. This coming season, I think that will change. I definitely think we'll see a few runs next season where Dawkins outscores the opposing team himself over the course of 3-4 minutes as he hits a few threes and drives past his defender a time or two for the score as the opposition tries to cover up Singler, Smith, Mason and the other scoring threats we'll have on the floor.

Big Pappa
05-19-2010, 12:10 PM
He also did not have the benefit of a summer in Durham last year in addition to missing out on a year of physical and skill development by skipping his last year of high school eligibility. Add to that his family tragedy and you've got the deck stacked against the kid. I'm not exactly sure how many minutes he'll get next year but I am completely certain that we've only seen glimpses of the player he will become. With better defensive movement and better ballhandling on O, he'll be able to be a big contributor next season. I do think he'll be coming off the bench, but he has the potential to be a big spark plug when he is in the game. Last year, due to the makeup of our team, he wasn't in a position to be in attack mode off the bench. This coming season, I think that will change. I definitely think we'll see a few runs next season where Dawkins outscores the opposing team himself over the course of 3-4 minutes as he hits a few threes and drives past his defender a time or two for the score as the opposition tries to cover up Singler, Smith, Mason and the other scoring threats we'll have on the floor.

Good point here. I believe it was Ga Tech in the ACC tourney last year when he pumped and went right by his defender to throw it down with authority. He also had just hit a big three. When he threw that dunk down I thought to myself... this kid is going to be a player.

MCFinARL
05-19-2010, 12:51 PM
Andre often did not move without the ball, particularly during the tournaments. That was by design. Coach wanted him available at a 3-pt spot.

I wondered about this myself--he often seemed so still that if Coach K had wanted him to be moving, I think he might have been taken out of the game. Do you actually know this was by design, or are you speculating?

Osiagledknarf
06-02-2010, 08:42 PM
I wondered about this myself--he often seemed so still that if Coach K had wanted him to be moving, I think he might have been taken out of the game. Do you actually know this was by design, or are you speculating?

I think it was design. They needed him to be on the perimeter to be able to help pick the outside game, which is what they were looking for from him. Expect more of him using his ability to drive to hoop.

Sandman
06-02-2010, 08:57 PM
I love Andre, as a person, as a passionate Duke man, and as a beautifully smooth jump shooter. Remember, Andre was originally coming as a freshman this fall. My question is: do the DBR knowledgeable fans think Andre will be better this year because of his freshman experience at Duke, or would he have been better served to have that extra year of high school game experience and leadership responsibility?

mgtr
06-02-2010, 08:58 PM
Remember that this summer is Andre's first summer at Duke. Playing in pickup games, learning what he can do and others can do will make a huge difference. I think he will make important contributions this year, and of course even bigger in future years.

Greg_Newton
06-02-2010, 09:08 PM
I love Andre, as a person, as a passionate Duke man, and as a beautifully smooth jump shooter. Remember, Andre was originally coming as a freshman this fall. My question is: do the DBR knowledgeable fans think Andre will be better this year because of his freshman experience at Duke, or would he have been better served to have that extra year of high school game experience and leadership responsibility?

Interesting question. I think it greatly depends on whether he can reshape his body to allow him to finish with contact, but I don't see anyway he wouldn't be more advanced.

What was he originally ranked in his class? 10-15? I wonder what our expectations would be of him going into this year if he hadn't come early...

Bo_Spice
06-02-2010, 09:09 PM
I love Andre Dawkins, everyone keeps talking about his shooting stroke, but one thing he didn't show much of last year, he's a great athlete with major bounce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSBQaskzA0

dukelifer
06-02-2010, 09:25 PM
I love Andre, as a person, as a passionate Duke man, and as a beautifully smooth jump shooter. Remember, Andre was originally coming as a freshman this fall. My question is: do the DBR knowledgeable fans think Andre will be better this year because of his freshman experience at Duke, or would he have been better served to have that extra year of high school game experience and leadership responsibility?
I would argue he will be better next year as a result of being part of the team (winning and NC) and understanding what is expected of him from the coaching staff on both ends of the court. If he was a freshman coming in this year- he would be fighting for playing time and Duke is deep in the backcourt. This year- he will be experienced and ready to contribute. He now knows what he needs to do to be successful at this level.

Kedsy
06-02-2010, 09:35 PM
My question is: do the DBR knowledgeable fans think Andre will be better this year because of his freshman experience at Duke, or would he have been better served to have that extra year of high school game experience and leadership responsibility?

Yes, he will be a lot better because of his freshman experience. He understands how the Duke defense works, which he never would have otherwise, and he has a whole year of playing at the speed of college basketball, which is huge.

The thing that's hard to say is whether he would have been better as a sophomore in 2011-12 than he will be as a sophomore in 2010-11. On the other hand, I don't think we would have won the 2010 championship without him, so I don't care about the other stuff so much.

CameronBornAndBred
06-03-2010, 01:23 AM
I love Andre Dawkins, everyone keeps talking about his shooting stroke, but one thing he didn't show much of last year, he's a great athlete with major bounce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSBQaskzA0
I can't remember the specific game, I think it was in the ACC tourney. Dawkins made a drive and dunk to the basket that almost shocked the snot out of me it was so unexpected. He proved then he has the skills to break inside, he just never showed them that often. I'm guessing we'll be seeing more drives like that next year.

MisterRoddy
06-03-2010, 01:50 AM
I can't remember the specific game, I think it was in the ACC tourney. Dawkins made a drive and dunk to the basket that almost shocked the snot out of me it was so unexpected. He proved then he has the skills to break inside, he just never showed them that often. I'm guessing we'll be seeing more drives like that next year.

I believe you are referring to the ACC Championship game against Georgia Tech. IIRC, I think that was part of a span in which Andre scored 7 straight points for us.

basket1544
06-03-2010, 07:42 AM
I think it is pretty clear that Kyrie will mostly be backed up by Seth/Tyler, Nolan will be backed up by Andre/Seth, Kyle will be backed up by Andre/Ryan, Miles will be backed up by Ryan/Josh, and Mason will be backed up by Josh/Ryan.
Andre will play wing positions depending on the size of the opponent. If Kyle is guarding someone 6'4"-6'6" then Andre can; if the opponent is 6'7"-6'9" it makes more sense to put Ryan on them. Either way, (knowing K's style and Kyle's work ethic) Kyle's only going to rest for a couple of plays every game.
Andre is going to have to be better defensively to play the backup 2/3 position. I'm sure he's working on that this summer so I'm not worried about him. Mason on the other hand... that's another thread I'm sure.

Saratoga2
06-03-2010, 08:02 AM
I think it is pretty clear that Kyrie will mostly be backed up by Seth/Tyler, Nolan will be backed up by Andre/Seth, Kyle will be backed up by Andre/Ryan, Miles will be backed up by Ryan/Josh, and Mason will be backed up by Josh/Ryan.
Andre will play wing positions depending on the size of the opponent. If Kyle is guarding someone 6'4"-6'6" then Andre can; if the opponent is 6'7"-6'9" it makes more sense to put Ryan on them. Either way, (knowing K's style and Kyle's work ethic) Kyle's only going to rest for a couple of plays every game.
Andre is going to have to be better defensively to play the backup 2/3 position. I'm sure he's working on that this summer so I'm not worried about him. Mason on the other hand... that's another thread I'm sure.

I agree with your synopsis at the guard position, however, I think we will need to use Ryan inside, with the Plumlees and Hairston. Typically, bigs don't play as many minutes due to foul accumulation and just their need to catch their breath. If the Plumlees each get 25 minutes, then there will be 30 minutes for Hairston and Kelly with perhaps a little of Kyle filling in at times. I think Andre will be the primary backup at the 3 and also get some time at the 2.

Injuries and illness should be expected, so it is good the team is deep.

CDu
06-03-2010, 08:19 AM
I think it is pretty clear that Kyrie will mostly be backed up by Seth/Tyler, Nolan will be backed up by Andre/Seth, Kyle will be backed up by Andre/Ryan, Miles will be backed up by Ryan/Josh, and Mason will be backed up by Josh/Ryan.
Andre will play wing positions depending on the size of the opponent. If Kyle is guarding someone 6'4"-6'6" then Andre can; if the opponent is 6'7"-6'9" it makes more sense to put Ryan on them. Either way, (knowing K's style and Kyle's work ethic) Kyle's only going to rest for a couple of plays every game.
Andre is going to have to be better defensively to play the backup 2/3 position. I'm sure he's working on that this summer so I'm not worried about him. Mason on the other hand... that's another thread I'm sure.

I don't know that I'd say Hairston will back up both Plumlees. He appears to be a smaller/lighter guy (built more like Thomas). I'd see him more as a backup 4, with The Plumlees sometimes playing together but otherwise rotating at the 5 spot. Kelly, Hairston, and Singler would then fill in the rest of the minutes at the 4 (I'm guessing there'd be ~30-35 minutes per game to be had at the 4 with the Plumlees taking 45-50 minutes per game at the 4-5 spots.

And I don't really expect Kelly to back up at the 3 next year. I think Singler will play the majority of the minutes there, with Dawkins getting the back up minutes (and maybe Curry/Smith in a small lineup against the right opponent).

gumbomoop
06-03-2010, 08:57 AM
I don't know that I'd say Hairston will back up both Plumlees. He appears to be a smaller/lighter guy (built more like Thomas). I'd see him more as a backup 4, with The Plumlees sometimes playing together but otherwise rotating at the 5 spot. Kelly, Hairston, and Singler would then fill in the rest of the minutes at the 4 (I'm guessing there'd be ~30-35 minutes per game to be had at the 4 with the Plumlees taking 45-50 minutes per game at the 4-5 spots.

And I don't really expect Kelly to back up at the 3 next year. I think Singler will play the majority of the minutes there, with Dawkins getting the back up minutes (and maybe Curry/Smith in a small lineup against the right opponent).

Put me down for 100% of this analysis. Esp the point about MP2 being alternate 5 when MP1 sits for rest or foul problems. Actually the ability of the MPs [and RK - see below] to keep up with much faster pace and to avoid foul problems will probably be most telling factors in minutes distribution next season. If MPs can each play 25 mpg [MP1's 25 at 5, MP2's split between 4/5], that leaves plenty of minutes for RK and possibly JH to get at 4. I think RK's a player, so if he can keep up, he'll get lots of minutes. If not, and if JH isn't quite ready, then KS gets a few more minutes at outside-in 4 than he and K [and NBA scouts] would prefer.

Will DD be aggressive, confident, and in best shape of his life? He better be, for he's going to have to fight SC for wing minutes. I continue to believe it's better to think of K's 2-3s as wings rather than as..... uh..... 2-3s.

airowe
06-03-2010, 09:26 AM
How many mpg at the SF position do you guys really think there will be for anyone not named Singler? I'll put the over/under at 7.

yancem
06-03-2010, 09:41 AM
How many mpg at the SF position do you guys really think there will be for anyone not named Kingler? I'll put the over/under at 7.

I think that this depends mostly on the Plumlees. If they have difficulty staying out of foul trouble, I think that we will see Singler play 5-10 minutes a game at the 4 which automatically frees up minutes at the 3.

If the Plumlees mature defensively and cut out the silly fouls and the blow rotations then Singler will stick primarily to playing the 3. If that's the case however, we should be getting better low post scoring than previous years and with Smith, Irving and Curry scoring on the perimeter, Single will be able to rest more than last year.

It is my hope that none of the starters average more than 32-33 minutes a game next season and I do believe that Singler will play at least 2-4 minutes at the 4 each game. So I will take the over but probably not ny a lot.

CDu
06-03-2010, 09:54 AM
How many mpg at the SF position do you guys really think there will be for anyone not named Kingler? I'll put the over/under at 7.

Yeah, the only way the number is higher than that would be if Singler plays some of his ~33-35mpg at the 4. But I don't anticipate him playing THAT much at the 4. So I can't see the number being more than 12-15 mpg (depending on foul trouble for the bigs), and could be as few as 5 or so (barring injury, of course).

nyr484
06-03-2010, 10:40 AM
I can't remember the specific game, I think it was in the ACC tourney. Dawkins made a drive and dunk to the basket that almost shocked the snot out of me it was so unexpected. He proved then he has the skills to break inside, he just never showed them that often. I'm guessing we'll be seeing more drives like that next year.

Dawkins can definitely take it hard to the hoop. Here's that play...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l0pXd5s0g#t=2m52s

Also worth a watch -- Dre dunking at CTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ES76QLaZDk

Kedsy
06-03-2010, 11:38 AM
How many mpg at the SF position do you guys really think there will be for anyone not named Singler? I'll put the over/under at 7.

I'm taking the over. As others have said, I don't expect Kyle to average more than 32 or 33 minutes, and my guess is 5 to 8 of them come at the 4, depending on the opponent. So in my mind we're looking at 12 to 16 non-Singler minutes at the 3.

airowe
06-03-2010, 12:07 PM
I'm taking the over. As others have said, I don't expect Kyle to average more than 32 or 33 minutes, and my guess is 5 to 8 of them come at the 4, depending on the opponent. So in my mind we're looking at 12 to 16 non-Singler minutes at the 3.

I can be down with that. I think it will be a little less, but not by much. How many of those minutes do you see going to Andre? I'm thinking most of them (7-8) with the rest divied up by Curry and Hairston. I think Josh will get more than Seth, height liabilities being the reason. Andre should pull some minutes at the two as well, IMO.

I could see a substitution pattern where Seth and Andre come in for Kyrie and Nolan at the same time, as long as Seth shows well at the point. Then, when one of the guards reenters the game, Kyle comes out and Andre slides over to the 3. We have a lot of versatility with our backcourt this year so I'm excited to see what the staff does with it.

Kedsy
06-03-2010, 01:47 PM
I can be down with that. I think it will be a little less, but not by much. How many of those minutes do you see going to Andre? I'm thinking most of them (7-8) with the rest divied up by Curry and Hairston. I think Josh will get more than Seth, height liabilities being the reason. Andre should pull some minutes at the two as well, IMO.

I could see a substitution pattern where Seth and Andre come in for Kyrie and Nolan at the same time, as long as Seth shows well at the point. Then, when one of the guards reenters the game, Kyle comes out and Andre slides over to the 3. We have a lot of versatility with our backcourt this year so I'm excited to see what the staff does with it.

I agree with almost all of what you say here, except I don't think Josh will be playing much "3" this year, unless he shows a lot more ability to guard on the wing than I expect. I think Andre will get 16 to 20 minutes total, split about even between the 2 and the 3 (and thus, as you say, getting most of the non-Kyle minutes at the 3), with the rest going to Seth, for 3 or 4 minutes of full-court pressing or half-court zone trapping to knock the other team off-balance.

airowe
06-03-2010, 02:15 PM
I agree with almost all of what you say here, except I don't think Josh will be playing much "3" this year, unless he shows a lot more ability to guard on the wing than I expect. I think Andre will get 16 to 20 minutes total, split about even between the 2 and the 3 (and thus, as you say, getting most of the non-Kyle minutes at the 3), with the rest going to Seth, for 3 or 4 minutes of full-court pressing or half-court zone trapping to knock the other team off-balance.

I think he'll play mainly at the 4, but some 3 in there as well. Here's some info on K's plans for Josh:


Speaking of weight, where are you measuring out now? What’s your ideal weight for when you’re in college?

This is something I’ve talked about with Coach K a lot. I think when I get to Duke, we’re looking to have me play at around 230-235. I’m at a solid 220 right now, and it’s really good weight too. I do a lot of agility and ball-handling stuff almost everyday here, and Coach K is wanting me to be a versatile player when I get to Duke, kind of like Kyle Singler and Shane Battier played for Duke.

Here's some more on Josh from last year, before he began playing at Montrose and working a ton on his ball handling and outside shooting to become more of a small forward/power forward combo:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Josh-Hairston-5710/

This obviously fits into more of what you see him as.

Here's a more recent article:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/042010/04192010/542030/index_html?page=2


Biancardi said Hairston should be able to find a niche with Duke immediately.

That's because Hairston improved his outside shooting at Montrose.

Hairston said he expects to play small forward or power forward at Duke.

Kedsy
06-03-2010, 02:35 PM
I think he'll play mainly at the 4, but some 3 in there as well. Here's some info on K's plans for Josh:

Here's some more on Josh from last year, before he began playing at Montrose and working a ton on his ball handling and outside shooting to become more of a small forward/power forward combo:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Josh-Hairston-5710/

This obviously fits into more of what you see him as.

Here's a more recent article:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/042010/04192010/542030/index_html?page=2

I think ultimately where you see him is where he'll be. But I think in 2010-11, he'll be part of the big man rotation. Like Kyle his freshman year. For Kyle it was because we had too few inside players. For Josh it will be because the perimeter is just too crowded. In addition, most freshmen aren't quite ready for the speed of the college game, so it's easier for them to guard a little bigger than they are than it is to guard a little quicker than they are. The fact that K wants him to play at 235 seems to support this, at least that's what it looks like to me.

Also, just because Josh would be guarding 4s doesn't mean he won't be able to show off those ballhandling and shooting skills and play some on the perimeter on offense. You can bet Ryan Kelly will be utilizing his outside skills but I doubt he'll be playing any "3." I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a great deal of 4-out, 1-in sets for the Devils next year.

gumbomoop
06-03-2010, 02:55 PM
You can bet Ryan Kelly will be utilizing his outside skills but I doubt he'll be playing any "3." I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a great deal of 4-out, 1-in sets for the Devils next year.

Yes on RK. Double yes on 4-out-1-in, because we have several potentially very good, not to mention tall, high post passers - RK, MP2, KS - and some enticing mismatches when KS posts up. RK to MP1 or MP2 pretty promising, too.

Cockabeau
06-03-2010, 03:01 PM
He is truly one of my favorite players on the Duke team, and certainly one of the guys that has the most potential on this team to be an impact player on this team. Some things I want some thoughts about

- His lack of bulk.. He seems to be extremely thin and does not have the bulk which is sorta necessary to be able to cover big 3's and smaller 4's. I see this as a need this offseason in order to be able to compete on the defensive end more affectively.

What do you think his ceiling is this year and in future years? I think he has the talent/ ability to be a middle of the first round pick or high lottery depending on how he does from here on out of course, but that's how I feel of him of right now.. Could change either way.

I am more concerned about Andre's lack of a handle and lateral quickness

BD80
06-03-2010, 04:35 PM
I think he'll play mainly at the 4, but some 3 in there as well. Here's some info on K's plans for Josh:


... Coach K is wanting me to be a versatile player when I get to Duke, kind of like Kyle Singler and Shane Battier played for Duke.

Here's some more on Josh from last year, before he began playing at Montrose and working a ton on his ball handling and outside shooting to become more of a small forward/power forward combo:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Josh-Hairston-5710/

...

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/042010/04192010/542030/index_html?page=2

I don't think Shane ever played the "3" at Duke. He played a "4" in that he defended PFs, but he was certainly an outside threat and handled the ball on the perimeter. I wouldn't say he penetrated much or created off the dribble, which is what I would consider a "3." Key in my mind is that there generally were not 2 other "post players" when Shane was on the floor.

Josh would be the same way. To play the "4" for Duke, he will still need strong shooting and ball-handling skills. I don't see him playing with 2 other post players, thus making him the "3."

Since this has devolved into another starting line-up / minutes thread, I can't believe the number of fans who ignore 25 years of history with Coach K. If he has three or more REALLY talented guards/wing players, he is going to have those players on the floor constantly. He will go with speed and ballhandling over height at the "3" every time. There will NEVER be a time (short of mop up time) when Kelly or Hairston will play the three. The best players will be on the court the most, even if that means Kyle at the "4." Kyle, Nolan and Kyrie are the best players. After that there is Seth and Mason. To get them each in the game the most, they will often play together. Miles will probably start, and the substitutions will allow Seth (our sixth starter) in a lot. Andre will earn minutes, as much at Miles' or Mason's expense as at the expense of the other backcourt players. Ryan and Josh will be post players, giving the brothers a rest or play due to foul trouble, but primarily when we need to stay big.

This scenario has played out time and time again. By the end of the conference schedule we will have the six players playing the lion's share of the minutes, Andre less than half of the minutes averaged by the other six, and Ryan and Josh getting a few minutes a game.

hq2
06-03-2010, 04:55 PM
Andre's still trying to find his role. I think it will change some next year as he develops, especially his ability to drive to the basket. I'd like to see him play more in a three-guard offense with the Plumlees, Irving, and Nolan Smith; I think that would give him a chance to show more of what he can do. But don't write off his minute total yet; he has the ability to get hot and really take over a game when he's on. He'll get plenty of minutes.

yancem
06-03-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't think Shane ever played the "3" at Duke. He played a "4" in that he defended PFs, but he was certainly an outside threat and handled the ball on the perimeter. I wouldn't say he penetrated much or created off the dribble, which is what I would consider a "3." Key in my mind is that there generally were not 2 other "post players" when Shane was on the floor.

Josh would be the same way. To play the "4" for Duke, he will still need strong shooting and ball-handling skills. I don't see him playing with 2 other post players, thus making him the "3."

Since this has devolved into another starting line-up / minutes thread, I can't believe the number of fans who ignore 25 years of history with Coach K. If he has three or more REALLY talented guards/wing players, he is going to have those players on the floor constantly. He will go with speed and ballhandling over height at the "3" every time. There will NEVER be a time (short of mop up time) when Kelly or Hairston will play the three. The best players will be on the court the most, even if that means Kyle at the "4." Kyle, Nolan and Kyrie are the best players. After that there is Seth and Mason. To get them each in the game the most, they will often play together. Miles will probably start, and the substitutions will allow Seth (our sixth starter) in a lot. Andre will earn minutes, as much at Miles' or Mason's expense as at the expense of the other backcourt players. Ryan and Josh will be post players, giving the brothers a rest or play due to foul trouble, but primarily when we need to stay big.

This scenario has played out time and time again. By the end of the conference schedule we will have the six players playing the lion's share of the minutes, Andre less than half of the minutes averaged by the other six, and Ryan and Josh getting a few minutes a game.

I definitely agree about your analysis of Battier and the likely use of Hairston and Kelly. I also think that a lot of people are misjudging how much time Singler will spend at the 4.

That being said, I disagree with your last statement. If you go back and look at the 30 (not 25) years of Duke basketball under K, you will see that he is just as prone do run his bench 9-10 deep as he is to shorten it to 6-7. He hasn't done that as much recently because we haven't had the depth but if yo go back and look at the 80's and 90's, Duke regularly had 9 players averaging 10+ minutes. Additionally most of the starters on those teams averaged 28-31 minutes not the 32-37 minutes that we have seen occasionally the past couple of seasons.

jjh1080
06-03-2010, 05:33 PM
Dawkins time will depend on Kyle's time at the 4.

Coach K will play a motion offense so having Kyle and 3 guards on the floor at one time will not be an issue. The issue comes down Kyle being able to guard the opponents PF. He did it in the past but last year he slimmed down to play the SF position, his pro position. For him to guard the opps PF he'll need to muscle up and that tends to affect ones outside shooting touch.

Thus, Duke's success next season comes down to how Coach K plans to use Kyle or how he can use Kyle on the defensive end. Kyle is no Shane thus I would not compare the two.

airowe
06-03-2010, 05:43 PM
Dawkins time will depend on Kyle's time at the 4.

Coach K will play a motion offense so having Kyle and 3 guards on the floor at one time will not be an issue. The issue comes down Kyle being able to guard the opponents PF. He did it in the past but last year he slimmed down to play the SF position, his pro position. For him to guard the opps PF he'll need to muscle up and that tends to affect ones outside shooting touch.

Thus, Duke's success next season comes down to how Coach K plans to use Kyle or how he can use Kyle on the defensive end. Kyle is no Shane thus I would not compare the two.

How does adding muscle affect one's shooting touch? Kyle's time at the 4 depends on the 3rd guard's ability to guard the opposing 3. If Andre can do that effectively, he will see more time. If not, he will play less.

Big Pappa
06-03-2010, 09:43 PM
How does adding muscle affect one's shooting touch? Kyle's time at the 4 depends on the 3rd guard's ability to guard the opposing 3. If Andre can do that effectively, he will see more time. If not, he will play less.

This is the obvious point. We just won't play very much with three guys 6'2" or shorter on the floor, so if Dre can defend the opposing 3 effectively he will be on the floor. His height gives him the edge at the 3 over Seth, although I think Seth will see plenty of time at the 2 and 1.

Newton_14
06-03-2010, 10:16 PM
How many mpg at the SF position do you guys really think there will be for anyone not named Singler? I'll put the over/under at 7.

I agree. Kyle will play the Lion's Share of minutes at the 3 backed up mainly by Andre who I expect to make a big jump from what we saw last year. I think we may be selling Andre short on how good he really can be. He will get his minutes on the wing be it at the 2 or the 3 but mostly at the 2 with Kyle at the 3.

We will have a nice 4 man rotation for the two big man spots, with all 4 having uniquely different skill sets. I believe we will see Miles, Mason, and Kelly manning the 5 spot with Mason, Kelly, and Hairston manning the 4 spot. In times when we go small ball, Kyle will see some minutes at the 4, but not enough minutes where it would require him to change his body back to where it was when he played the 4 exclusively.

Dukefan4Life
06-03-2010, 10:36 PM
Dawkins time will depend on Kyle's time at the 4.

Coach K will play a motion offense so having Kyle and 3 guards on the floor at one time will not be an issue. The issue comes down Kyle being able to guard the opponents PF. He did it in the past but last year he slimmed down to play the SF position, his pro position. For him to guard the opps PF he'll need to muscle up and that tends to affect ones outside shooting touch.

Thus, Duke's success next season comes down to how Coach K plans to use Kyle or how he can use Kyle on the defensive end. Kyle is no Shane thus I would not compare the two.

I think our success comes down mostly to the Plum brothers. I think they have to step in where Z left off. Mason has to develop some post moves and continue to be aggressive. Miles get better on D and step up on the boards

Osiagledknarf
07-24-2010, 04:42 PM
I know this is in the Pro AM thread, but Andre scored 36 in the Pro Am on Thursday Night. I like how he has progressed throughout the Pro Am after being outplayed by a Ncsu kid in his first game. I really like this kid going forward and should be able to make a solid contribution at the backup 2/3 next season. With him, Curry, Smith and Singler filling out the wing spots, we have tons of great depth there.

_TheFakeJWill_
07-24-2010, 05:00 PM
I think Dawkins will get his minutes cause he is the only man who can legitly play the 2 and 3 spot.

hq2
07-24-2010, 05:18 PM
I think Andre's been kind of overlooked in the big hoopla over Kyrie and Seth. Folks, Andre last December showed that he has the potential to be a first rate ballplayer. He just needed to work on his defensive positioning more and get more in the flow of the offense. Now, with a year to understand the system, and get his head together (plus bulk up a little) I think he's really going to start showing us what he can do. With that smooth textbook jumper and his leaping ability, I think he has the potential to have 15 and 20 point games on a regular basis when he gets it going. Look for him to have big games against slower wing players. You ain't seen nothing yet!

ACCBBallFan
07-24-2010, 07:29 PM
Not that Pro-Am is the greatest indicator, but if we are going to factor in Dre's success there, might as well do same for Ryan.

Quoting hq2 and substituting Ryan Kelly's name for Dre and similar edits " I think Ryan's been kind of overlooked in the big hoopla over the Plumlees. Folks, Ryan showed that he has the potential to be a first rate ballplayer. He just needed to work on his defensive positioning more and get more in the flow of the offense. Now, with a year to understand the system, and bulked up a lot to 234 or perhaps 240 by ACC play, I think he's really going to start showing us what he can do. I think he has the potential to have 15 and 20 point games on a regular basis when he gets it going. Look for him to have big games against slower forwards. You ain't seen nothing yet!"

I see 5 tiers of PT

30 MPG for Kyle and Nolan (sum 60)

25 MPG for Kyrie and one Plumlee - which oine may vary by opponent and foul trouble (sum 110)

20-25 MPG for Seth/Dre (not sure which one yet) and the other Plumlee (sum 155)

15 MPG for other of Dre/Seth and Ryan (sum 185)

5-10 MPG for Josh and Tyler (sum 200)

Not sure which of Seth and Dre gets most MPG but together they get about 35-40 MPG, perhaps 20 each if they are that close.

When I talk PT it is over the course of the season. So in OOC and versus weaker ACC teams it may be more bunched than this around 20 MPG each

and versus stronger ACC teams and in latter rounds of NCAA, it may be an 8 man rotation with those 15 MPG at bottom going 5 each to Nolan, Kyle and Kyrie

and perhaps less time for Ryan and Dre or Seth if Plumlees, Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle are not in foul trouble.

In general, the three primary bigs the Plumlees and Kelly will get as many MPG as their tendency to foul permits, and probably sum to about 60-65 MPG.

If Ryan has really progressed, all three may be about 20 MPG with one getting 25 MPG rather than Kelly only getting 15 MPG, one Plumlee 20-25 MPG and the other Plumlee 25MPG.

I know the 6th man getting starter minutes thing is usually not plural, but hard to separate Seth, Dre and Ryan from the starters most posters are projecting, until we see them in real games rather than glorified pick up NCCU Pro Am games.

MarkD83
07-24-2010, 07:42 PM
For those that can think back 15 years, does Andre remind you of Thomas Hill?

Kedsy
07-24-2010, 08:33 PM
For those that can think back 15 years, does Andre remind you of Thomas Hill?

Not really. I think Andre is a much better shooter than T Hill and I think T Hill was a stronger defender. Although I assume Andre's defense will improve from last year.

In the end, I see Andre as a future NBA player, and Thomas Hill never really got to that level.

Big Pappa
07-24-2010, 09:28 PM
In the end, I see Andre as a future NBA player, and Thomas Hill never really got to that level.

That's a good point. The biggest difference I see is the shooting ability. I'm excited to see how many minutes Dre will play in clutch situations where we need a big bucket. With Nolan, Kyle, KI, Seth, and Dre in a situation where we need a 3 - who shoots it? The nice thing is that it will most likely be whoever has the best look instead of having one of our guys force a bad shot because he has nobody else around him.

Osiagledknarf
07-24-2010, 09:45 PM
Not really. I think Andre is a much better shooter than T Hill and I think T Hill was a stronger defender. Although I assume Andre's defense will improve from last year.

In the end, I see Andre as a future NBA player, and Thomas Hill never really got to that level.

Completely agree. I think Andre is much more of an explosive athlete, shooter and a downright more dangerous then Hill was. I would give Hill a little bit of edge defensively, but Andre's overall talent level is through the roof. I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a low lottery pick or late teen's pick when it is all set and done at Duke. I think he has the high of ceiling.

NSDukeFan
07-24-2010, 10:42 PM
Not really. I think Andre is a much better shooter than T Hill and I think T Hill was a stronger defender. Although I assume Andre's defense will improve from last year.

In the end, I see Andre as a future NBA player, and Thomas Hill never really got to that level.

I am posing this more as a question than doubting your assessment, but what kept Thomas Hill from playing in the NBA? I don't doubt that Andre's shooting is better, but Hill was bigger, from my recollection, at least as good an athlete, a solid defender, good rebounder as a wing, team player. I really liked him as a player and when I go back can see that he was all-ACC more than once and was drafted in the second round, but never made it. I would have thought there would have been a place in the league for him. I am hoping there will be for Andre and look forward to watching his progress for the next 3 years.

Cockabeau
07-24-2010, 10:51 PM
Andre's lack of bulk is not what bothers me. I am worried about lack of lateral quickness and ball handling skills, I love the kid, but be honest....there are big holes to his game.

ice-9
07-24-2010, 11:21 PM
I don't understand why so many people are ready to place Seth in a certain tier, and then Kelly in another. We've never seen Seth in the Duke system, and the sophomore jump tends to be the biggest one -- and what does "best" mean anyway? I don't claim to know any better, but I'm willing to bet money that Ryan will get more than just "a few minutes" a game. I'm willing to bet he will average more than 10 minutes a game over the course of the season.

Kedsy
07-24-2010, 11:35 PM
I am posing this more as a question than doubting your assessment, but what kept Thomas Hill from playing in the NBA? I don't doubt that Andre's shooting is better, but Hill was bigger, from my recollection, at least as good an athlete, a solid defender, good rebounder as a wing, team player. I really liked him as a player and when I go back can see that he was all-ACC more than once and was drafted in the second round, but never made it. I would have thought there would have been a place in the league for him. I am hoping there will be for Andre and look forward to watching his progress for the next 3 years.

Well, he was third-team all-ACC a couple times. I think Thomas Hill's problem is he didn't have an NBA position. He wasn't a good enough offensive player to play the 2 (was a decent but not outstanding shooter, couldn't get his own shot in the NBA, and couldn't blow by an NBA 2-guard ang get to the hoop), not big enough to play the 3, and didn't have anywhere near good enough handle to play the 1. And while there may be a few with similar resumes who have made it to the League, almost all of them have crazy hops like Dahntay and G. Thomas Hill just wasn't the type of player who can make an NBA team.

Greg_Newton
07-24-2010, 11:40 PM
Andre's lack of bulk is not what bothers me. I am worried about lack of lateral quickness and ball handling skills, I love the kid, but be honest....there are big holes to his game.

I actually agree with you here. People see that he can a) shoot three lights out, and b) dunk, and tend to assume that means he is c) very athletic overall, and is on the verge of being an offensive force.

The reality is that he's not particularly quick for a shooting guard, and isn't a particularly good ballhandler for a guard either. I was hoping he could live in the weight room this summer and transform his body into more of an fast-twitch athlete by shedding some body fat, but it doesn't like that's really happened yet.

I love the kid, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if he's more than a shooter off the bench next season.

hq2
07-25-2010, 10:11 AM
That's why he should be playing small forward, if his d improves, or playing in a 3 guard offense.

Osiagledknarf
07-25-2010, 10:20 AM
That's why he should be playing small forward, if his d improves, or playing in a 3 guard offense.

Yes but the only problem with that for this season is Kyle will be playing the for around 30 minutes most nights. In order to get Andre minutes, you will have to play him at the 2 for him to give moderate minutes. Curry will be the backup PG this season, so when he is in, he will get time playing at the 2, and when Kyle is either sitting or playing the 4, he will get time at the 3. That's how it will work this year barring injury. I expect him to average about 15-20 minutes this year.

gumbomoop
07-25-2010, 10:31 AM
[Andre] isn't a particularly good ballhandler for a guard.

IMO, ballhandling adeptness is the single most important physical skill in bball. Not more important than all other skills combined, but just overall the single most important. For perimeter players, especially, it must be at or near the very top of their needed skill-set.

Based on his limited PT last season, Andre didn't seem to have a good handle. Possibly he just didn't yet have confidence, and dribble-drive wasn't his role, but he has yet to show good handle.

I'd have to agree tentatively with G_N, and loosely speculate that Andre's career in the game will depend on his developing good handle. That and learning from JJ how to use perimeter screens to square his body and get off quick and accurate 3-bombs.

peblnh8
07-25-2010, 02:19 PM
where was dawkins ranked in his class before showing up early?

Thanks,

Duvall
07-25-2010, 02:34 PM
where was dawkins ranked in his class before showing up early?

Thanks,

Around #15 overall. In the 10-20 range, five-star prospect.

gumbomoop
07-25-2010, 02:34 PM
where was dawkins ranked in his class before showing up early?

Thanks,

Hard to find him, now, in the various rankings for class of '10, as once he arrived early, he disappeared from those lists, but was never added to class of '09 rankings.

Anyhow, my vague recollection is that he was roughly in the overall player #15-25 range, and top 3-4 SG. Maybe others have better memory on this.

Osiagledknarf
07-25-2010, 02:44 PM
where was dawkins ranked in his class before showing up early?

Thanks,

He was ranked as the 10th overall player for the 2010 and had a 97 grade. He was ranked higher then Reggie Bullock at the time. He was ranked as the 35th overall player in the 2009 class and had a 95 grade.

So he would likely be a top 20 recruit or better coming out this year.

_TheFakeJWill_
07-25-2010, 03:49 PM
big Dawkins fan here! the 1 thing i would love to see him work on more than anything is to STOP STANDING AROUND ON OFFENSE! If he can keep his stamina up on both ends, and come off of screens and move w/o the ball well his ballhandling skill wouldnt have to improve that much.... though it would def help.

gep
07-25-2010, 03:58 PM
If I recall correctly, there was discussion of Andre standing around on offense... and that maybe that's what he was told to do when he was in the game, based on who else was on the floor at the time? In any case, the one game with the drive through the lane and the dunk was great, and I hope we get to see more of it this year.

hq2
07-25-2010, 09:46 PM
Yes but the only problem with that for this season is Kyle will be playing the for around 30 minutes most nights. In order to get Andre minutes, you will have to play him at the 2 for him to give moderate minutes. Curry will be the backup PG this season, so when he is in, he will get time playing at the 2, and when Kyle is either sitting or playing the 4, he will get time at the 3. That's how it will work this year barring injury. I expect him to average about 15-20 minutes this year.

That's probably about right, but remember Kyle can play 3 or 4. That means that K may swing Kyle to 4 for 10-15 minutes/game, and give some of RKs minutes to Andre, which might give him as many as 25 in some games. I think it will depend a lot on individual game matchups as to how the minutes shake out. Also, I would look for the team to run different offensive sets depending on who's playing and who they're playing against.

Osiagledknarf
07-25-2010, 10:36 PM
That's probably about right, but remember Kyle can play 3 or 4. That means that K may swing Kyle to 4 for 10-15 minutes/game, and give some of RKs minutes to Andre, which might give him as many as 25 in some games. I think it will depend a lot on individual game matchups as to how the minutes shake out. Also, I would look for the team to run different offensive sets depending on who's playing and who they're playing against.

I agree with you here. But then where to you play Mason? Mason I see as a starter at the 4 for about 25-30 next year at the 4, which means Singler will be playing the 4 for 5-10 minutes a game with 20 minutes at the 3. Which means Dawkins will get about 10 minutes at the 3 and another 5 or so at the 2. So I see him more around the 10-15 minute a game mark with sometimes playing in offensive sets with Irving, Curry, Smith, Singler and Dawkins on the floor at the same time. Yikes! Who do you double team? But for the most part, I see him as a 15-18 minute player for the most part.

COYS
07-25-2010, 11:09 PM
I agree with you here. But then where to you play Mason? Mason I see as a starter at the 4 for about 25-30 next year at the 4, which means Singler will be playing the 4 for 5-10 minutes a game with 20 minutes at the 3. Which means Dawkins will get about 10 minutes at the 3 and another 5 or so at the 2. So I see him more around the 10-15 minute a game mark with sometimes playing in offensive sets with Irving, Curry, Smith, Singler and Dawkins on the floor at the same time. Yikes! Who do you double team? But for the most part, I see him as a 15-18 minute player for the most part.

Jumping in on a new playing time discussion. Oh well, it's Sunday night and I'm relaxing after a busy weekend. I'd make the caveat that even some of the best post players in Duke history have failed to reach 30 mpg. Boozer, Williams through most of his career, Brand, etc . . . If Mason plays well enough to merit 30 min, something tells me we will have very few complaints. However, I think 23-27 is far more likely with 20-25 probably being the most likely range, in my opinion. I do think, however, that Ryan and Andre may be in more or less direct competition for minutes. I'm confident that the staff will stick to the post-season talk and start the Plumlees, Kyrie, Nolan, and Kyle. However, where Duke goes from there will be affected by both Andre and Ryan. Both players have immense potential on the offensive end but need to improve on the defensive end in order to merit large amounts of playing time. If Ryan improves on defense and is able to rebound and defend in the post, the added offense he provides on the court will warrant playing time. If Andre is able to improve his defense on the wing and his ball handling ability, a three guard lineup suddenly becomes more attractive with three threats from deep, a mismatch 4 who can rebound in Kyle, plus either Mason or Miles at the 5. Personally, I hope both scenarios play out and Ryan and Andre both demand minutes, meaning we can throw different looks at teams every single night without missing a beat.

oldnavy
07-26-2010, 07:00 AM
If I recall correctly, there was discussion of Andre standing around on offense... and that maybe that's what he was told to do when he was in the game, based on who else was on the floor at the time? In any case, the one game with the drive through the lane and the dunk was great, and I hope we get to see more of it this year.

I really do not see Andre's role as a dribble drive type of player. We have a couple of those already. I do agree that for him to take it to the next level he needs to work on movement and coming off screens (ala JJ). He only needs enough of a handle to make an escape dribble or on the rare occassion like in the ACC tourny last year when the lane completely opened up for him, to take it to the rim. I believe he already has that ability. I would not worry too much about the need for him to become a great ball handler to be effective in his role at Duke. Movement without the ball will serve him better than movement with the ball IMO.

DevilWolf
07-26-2010, 08:14 AM
I think the two most important things to consider with Dawkins is that ...

a) We won the national championship last year which takes SOME of the "weight of the world on your shoulders" pressure off of the incoming players

b) He is heads and shoulders better now heading into 2010-11 than he would have been after another year of high school basketball

We can afford to be patient with him to develop further, but he's so much farther along now than he would have been otherwise.

airowe
07-26-2010, 08:16 AM
I really do not see Andre's role as a dribble drive type of player. We have a couple of those already. I do agree that for him to take it to the next level he needs to work on movement and coming off screens (ala JJ). He only needs enough of a handle to make an escape dribble or on the rare occassion like in the ACC tourny last year when the lane completely opened up for him, to take it to the rim. I believe he already has that ability. I would not worry too much about the need for him to become a great ball handler to be effective in his role at Duke. Movement without the ball will serve him better than movement with the ball IMO.

Agreed. For 3 years, JJ sniped most of his points from around the perimeter and was crafty enough to get his shot up, even with pressure. Andre might not be able to get his shot off as quickly as JJ could, but it is nearly as pure. Its going to be difficult for teams to double any of our guys this year with so many weapons on the floor, so if Andre can be in the right spot on the floor and get even the slightest bit of separation from his defender using movement without the ball, he'll be able to shoot daggers just like we need him to.

hq2
07-26-2010, 09:10 AM
I agree with you here. But then where to you play Mason? Mason I see as a starter at the 4 for about 25-30 next year at the 4, which means Singler will be playing the 4 for 5-10 minutes a game with 20 minutes at the 3. Which means Dawkins will get about 10 minutes at the 3 and another 5 or so at the 2. So I see him more around the 10-15 minute a game mark with sometimes playing in offensive sets with Irving, Curry, Smith, Singler and Dawkins on the floor at the same time. Yikes! Who do you double team? But for the most part, I see him as a 15-18 minute player for the most part.

I'm not sure about Mason starting yet. I think he might for a few minutes, just for impact, but I don't see him playing beside Miles for much of the game for three reasons.

1. They're both foul prone. Giving them too many minutes early means a potential foul out/tire out later.

2. They both work better coming off the bench with fresh legs. Both are good full court players who haven't shown a lot of half court low post moves. Using them sequentially rather than together optimizes their utility.

3. Neiither is yet a consistent offensive threat. Having both on the floor removes a shooter. They're better on offense with RK in to space things and provide another scorer.

I'd say they mostly split the center position, with about 20 minutes a game each. That would still leave 20-25 at 3 for Andre, assuming RK gets about 20.

gumbomoop
07-26-2010, 09:25 AM
Agreed. For 3 years, JJ sniped most of his points from around the perimeter and was crafty enough to get his shot up, even with pressure. Andre might not be able to get his shot off as quickly as JJ could, but it is nearly as pure. Its going to be difficult for teams to double any of our guys this year with so many weapons on the floor, so if Andre can be in the right spot on the floor and get even the slightest bit of separation from his defender using movement without the ball, he'll be able to shoot daggers just like we need him to.

I also agree with you and oldnavy re what Duke needs most from Andre this season. In an earlier post [#84], responding to a comment re Andre's need for better handle, I claimed that his "career" would depend on his developing better handle...... and, a la JJ, doing the separation/dagger thing.

So, for the upcoming season, I'd especially agree with the point you and oldnavy make, for our other weapons are so numerous that Andre will probably literally not dribble the ball much. Literally.

Still, I hope either his handle will have marginally improved from last season, or, if all along a bit better than he was allowed [?] to display last season, we'll just see it occasionally.

And re his longer-term career prospects, JJ's total-game improvement might serve as a perfect model for Andre [and others], as it seems clear that JJ entered Duke as just a bomber, but now has a big contract because he's much more than that. I certainly wouldn't characterize JJ as a "dribble-driver," but he's sneaky good getting into the lane, or to the elbow. Not his bread-and-butter, but he's no longer to be found 100% of the time out beyond the line. My point about Andre's handle is, I guess, about his own long-term prospects, rather than the Devils' short-term needs. And even in the short term, we all want to see Andre blow-by to the basket for the occasional super-jam, just to keep the defense honest.

Osiagledknarf
07-26-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm not sure about Mason starting yet. I think he might for a few minutes, just for impact, but I don't see him playing beside Miles for much of the game for three reasons.

1. They're both foul prone. Giving them too many minutes early means a potential foul out/tire out later.

2. They both work better coming off the bench with fresh legs. Both are good full court players who haven't shown a lot of half court low post moves. Using them sequentially rather than together optimizes their utility.

3. Neiither is yet a consistent offensive threat. Having both on the floor removes a shooter. They're better on offense with RK in to space things and provide another scorer.

I'd say they mostly split the center position, with about 20 minutes a game each. That would still leave 20-25 at 3 for Andre, assuming RK gets about 20.

I am almost certain Mason will start. He has way too much talent not to start and what other option do you have the 4? Kyle can play it at times, but would you trust him playing full time there? The defense would suffer. So you would start Dawkins instead of Mason? I don't see that happening. I see him as a prime 6th or 7th man this year. Mason's athletic ability, his mid range game and his rebounding will be good to have in the 4 spot. I can almost guarntee you he starts at the 4.

Do Miles and Mason have to always play together? No they don't. I think that they both will start, but you will see sets where one is on the floor and one is on the bench and sets where both are on the floor. I do not think they have to be glued to each other on the floor at all times.

Mason is not a consistent offensive threat? Ryan Kelly average 1.5 ppg last season. Also, Kelly has shown to be poor on the defensive end and until Coach K and the staff seems more evidence of that, he will not get more time then Miles. I see him as a solid 15 minute guy off the bench, but I do not see him starting over either Mason or Miles.

How would Kelly starting affect Dawkins playing time at all? If he was playing at the 4, then it would, but as far as the center position goes, it will not. The only way I could see is if Kyle played the 4 more, which I don't see for more then 5-10 minutes a game.

hq2
07-26-2010, 10:44 AM
I am almost certain Mason will start. He has way too much talent not to start and what other option do you have the 4? Kyle can play it at times, but would you trust him playing full time there? The defense would suffer. So you would start Dawkins instead of Mason? I don't see that happening. I see him as a prime 6th or 7th man this year. Mason's athletic ability, his mid range game and his rebounding will be good to have in the 4 spot. I can almost guarntee you he starts at the 4.

Do Miles and Mason have to always play together? No they don't. I think that they both will start, but you will see sets where one is on the floor and one is on the bench and sets where both are on the floor. I do not think they have to be glued to each other on the floor at all times.


Mason may start, but I'm not convinced that both Plumlees will be playing together all that much. In the end, K usually plays whoever is playing better. If he gets more production with a small lineup and Andre at 3 and Kyle at 4, then he'll do that. If he gets more production with a big lineup and both Plumlees in, then he'll do that. It's still way too early to tell. And I don't see Kelly playing 5 much. He isn't a good enough shot blocker and defender to play D at 5, which means a Plumlee would be there almost all the time.

airowe
07-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I know this thread is about Andre Dawkins, but the last two posters said Ryan Kelly is not a strong defender and hq2, you said Ryan is not a very good shot blocker. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I believe he was either the best or second best shot blocker per minute last year.

Not sure where the notion comes from that Ryan is a poor defender either. If anything, that and interior passing were the two biggest assets he brought last season.

hq2
07-26-2010, 11:04 AM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

Indoor66
07-26-2010, 11:11 AM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

I believe everything published about Kelly (that I have seen) lists him at 6-10.

Channing
07-26-2010, 11:17 AM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

so this is more "I don't think he will be a good defender/shotblocker" and less "I know he isnt."

Kedsy
07-26-2010, 11:19 AM
I know this thread is about Andre Dawkins, but the last two posters said Ryan Kelly is not a strong defender and hq2, you said Ryan is not a very good shot blocker. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I believe he was either the best or second best shot blocker per minute last year.

Not sure where the notion comes from that Ryan is a poor defender either. If anything, that and interior passing were the two biggest assets he brought last season.

Blocks per 40 minutes (2009-2010):

Mason: 2.50
Ryan: 2.47
Z: 1.66
Miles: 1.59

So, you're right, Airowe, that Ryan was an outstanding shot blocker in limited minutes last year. I would go so far as to say he's a better shot blocker than Miles, even though he is shorter and is not as good a leaper, presumably because he has showed better timing and positioning than Miles. I'll agree with hq2 that Ryan may not be as intimidating under the basket as Miles, but that doesn't mean he can't block shots.

The thing about all the players we're currently discussing is we really don't know what we have with any of Andre, Ryan, Mason, or Miles. They all have a very good chance to be very different players from what we saw last season.

The Plumlees probably won't foul as much and hopefully will show better defensive positioning. They will both be much more consistent threats on offense, albeit mostly as recipients of drive-and-dish passes and alley-oop dunks. Andre will move more on offense, show more confidence, handle the ball better, and hopefully stick with his man better on defense. Ryan will be a completely different player, so much so that I'm betting people will be wondering why he played so little last year.


Mason may start, but I'm not convinced that both Plumlees will be playing together all that much. In the end, K usually plays whoever is playing better. If he gets more production with a small lineup and Andre at 3 and Kyle at 4, then he'll do that. If he gets more production with a big lineup and both Plumlees in, then he'll do that. It's still way too early to tell. And I don't see Kelly playing 5 much. He isn't a good enough shot blocker and defender to play D at 5, which means a Plumlee would be there almost all the time.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if when you say "more production" you mean offensive production, I disagree. We're going to score a whole lotta points next year, no matter who's in there. Our lineup will be based on who K thinks will provide the best defensive combination.

calltheobvious
07-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

My money is on his added strength being more than sufficient to compensate for the added weight. And as his minutes increase, his reaction time on the court should improve as well. If Ryan's BPM doesn't improve this season, it's likely to be attributable to a change in team defense.

jv001
07-26-2010, 11:33 AM
Blocks per 40 minutes (2009-2010):

Mason: 2.50
Ryan: 2.47
Z: 1.66
Miles: 1.59

So, you're right, Airowe, that Ryan was an outstanding shot blocker in limited minutes last year. I would go so far as to say he's a better shot blocker than Miles, even though he is shorter and is not as good a leaper, presumably because he has showed better timing and positioning than Miles. I'll agree with hq2 that Ryan may not be as intimidating under the basket as Miles, but that doesn't mean he can't block shots.

The thing about all the players we're currently discussing is we really don't know what we have with any of Andre, Ryan, Mason, or Miles. They all have a very good chance to be very different players from what we saw last season.

The Plumlees probably won't foul as much and hopefully will show better defensive positioning. They will both be much more consistent threats on offense, albeit mostly as recipients of drive-and-dish passes and alley-oop dunks. Andre will move more on offense, show more confidence, handle the ball better, and hopefully stick with his man better on defense. Ryan will be a completely different player, so much so that I'm betting people will be wondering why he played so little last year.



I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if when you say "more production" you mean offensive production, I disagree. We're going to score a whole lotta points next year, no matter who's in there. Our lineup will be based on who K thinks will provide the best defensive combination.

The key word being defense. Miles, Mason, Ryan and Andre will all have a better understanding of Duke's defensive schemes this year. Which will mean less thinking and more reacting and the end result, more confidence in their games. We can really be very good this year. Go Duke!

CDu
07-26-2010, 11:36 AM
Blocks per 40 minutes (2009-2010):

Mason: 2.50
Ryan: 2.47
Z: 1.66
Miles: 1.59

So, you're right, Airowe, that Ryan was an outstanding shot blocker in limited minutes last year. I would go so far as to say he's a better shot blocker than Miles, even though he is shorter and is not as good a leaper, presumably because he has showed better timing and positioning than Miles. I'll agree with hq2 that Ryan may not be as intimidating under the basket as Miles, but that doesn't mean he can't block shots.

One additional difference that merits consideration is that Kelly played a lot of his minutes against inferior competition at the end of games. I don't know how many of his blocks came in mopup duty, but it should be noted that Kelly's minutes were not equivalent in terms of the quality of competition. So any differences in block rates may not solely be due to differences in skill in positioning and timing.


The thing about all the players we're currently discussing is we really don't know what we have with any of Andre, Ryan, Mason, or Miles. They all have a very good chance to be very different players from what we saw last season.

This a very important point. We have no idea exactly where these guys will be in terms of readiness to contribute next year. Any (or all) of them could make great strides over the summer and into the fall.

JasonEvans
07-26-2010, 11:44 AM
Mason may start, but I'm not convinced that both Plumlees will be playing together all that much. In the end, K usually plays whoever is playing better. If he gets more production with a small lineup and Andre at 3 and Kyle at 4, then he'll do that. If he gets more production with a big lineup and both Plumlees in, then he'll do that. It's still way too early to tell. And I don't see Kelly playing 5 much. He isn't a good enough shot blocker and defender to play D at 5, which means a Plumlee would be there almost all the time.

I know that the staff LOVES Mason and Miles on the floor at the same time and they will do their best to get them both out there a fair amount of the time. I do agree that it would appear to be difficult to have anyone other than Mason or Miles at the "5" though I won't be shocked if K sometimes goes really small and plays without either of those guys in the game.

It is my hope that out fast pace and firepower will have many games over by halftime, allowing us more luxury to experiment in the second half.

--Jason "shades of 1999 anyone?" Evans

oldnavy
07-26-2010, 12:24 PM
so this is more "I don't think he will be a good defender/shotblocker" and less "I know he isnt."
Shot blocking is more about timing and patience than pure leaping ability. Ryan is plenty tall enough and has more than enough hops to be a very effective shot blocker if he can master the timing issue.

jipops
07-26-2010, 12:50 PM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

Shelden Williams wasn't much of a leaper either, I'd bet his vertical is quite similar to Kelly's. But if memory serves me well, Shelden was pretty good at blocking shots. Something about a nickname "Landlord"...?

I wouldn't bet on Kelly being anything like Shelden as a shot blocker of course, but I think you're underestimating and undervaluing his defensive ability here.

roywhite
07-26-2010, 12:52 PM
No doubt that both Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins can be very productive players this season, and even better in years to come.

How many other teams have this kind of talent as potentially 7th and 8th men in the rotation?
...and, of course, they could play their way into more significant roles.

hq2
07-26-2010, 12:56 PM
At this stage, I think we're all just guessing. Alll of these players will be substantially different next year. However, if Chirs Burgess and Shavlik Randolph are any indications, the
extra bulk will clealry subtract from RKs leaping ability. I think when all is said and done, the Pllumlees will get the center minutes because they are better at 5.

flyingdutchdevil
07-26-2010, 01:00 PM
Of course we're just guessing - it's called speculation! It is darn fun though, that's for sure. I agree with you - IMO, either of the Plumlee's will get the vast, vast, vast majority of the 5 minutes. I think one of the only ways that Kelly plays the 5 is if we're up against a really, really good shot blocker who isn't that mobile and K wants to remove the defender from the post. Only then do I see RK playing the 5.

ACCBBallFan
07-26-2010, 01:12 PM
Nobody on Duke last year average more than 0.9 blocks per game.

IMO, blocks is overrated and the more valid measure altered shots is a misnomer in that it cannot be measured accurately. Some guys go for the charge and others for the block. The former is the better of the two since there is a definite change of possession whereas a blocked shot can still be retained by the team who was blocked.

Going overboard on either can result in a personal foul, versus just being in the vicinity to prevent gimme's.

I think the more important point is getting used to Duke's team concept on defense and if Duke is taking more chances to intercept passing lanes, bigs have to rotate to cover when that does not work.

Plus not sure what blocked shots have to do with Dre anyway, but such is the way posts ebb and flow.

flyingdutchdevil
07-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Nobody on Duke last year average more than 0.9 blocks per game.

IMO, blocks is overrated and the more valid measure altered shots is a misnomer in that it cannot be measured accurately. Some guys go for the charge and others for the block. The former is the better of the two since there is a definite change of possession whereas a blocked shot can still be retained by the team who was blocked.

Going overboard on either can result in a personal foul, versus just being in the vicinity to prevent gimme's.

I think the more important point is getting used to Duke's team concept on defense and if Duke is taking more chances to intercept passing lanes, bigs have to rotate to cover when that does not work.

While I agree that the block shot is an overrated statistic, there isn't a move in basketball that intimidates an opposing offense as much as a block (getting dunked on intimidates the defense). The charge is effective - especially in college where it is more coachable than the block - but it doesn't instil fear in opposing players.

I've always been partial to the block. As a tall, immobile guy, the block is a fun move - especially when the quicker players infuriate you with their steals.

roywhite
07-26-2010, 02:32 PM
.

I've always been partial to the block. As a tall, immobile guy, the block is a fun move - especially when the quicker players infuriate you with their steals.

Hmmm....tall, immobile, Dutch...

Serge Zwikker, is that you?

Big Pappa
07-26-2010, 02:53 PM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

It's amazing to me that people can just throw out statements like, "he isn't a good shot blocker" without checking statistics or seemingly even watching the games. In regard to the comment about bulk making his vertical shorter: Ryan did not sit on the couch and eat to gain wait this summer. He put on muscle while working on basketball related strength training - including jumping drills. His added bulk should help his vertical not hurt it. It seems to me the Dwight Howard is awful bulky and still seems to be able to jump up and block a shot every now and then.

MChambers
07-26-2010, 03:29 PM
It's amazing to me that people can just throw out statements like, "he isn't a good shot blocker" without checking statistics or seemingly even watching the games. In regard to the comment about bulk making his vertical shorter: Ryan did not sit on the couch and eat to gain wait this summer. He put on muscle while working on basketball related strength training - including jumping drills. His added bulk should help his vertical not hurt it. It seems to me the Dwight Howard is awful bulky and still seems to be able to jump up and block a shot every now and then.
Good point. Miles has gained some weight, but it doesn't seem to have hurt his jumping.

ACCBBallFan
07-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Of course we're just guessing - it's called speculation! It is darn fun though, that's for sure. I agree with you - IMO, either of the Plumlee's will get the vast, vast, vast majority of the 5 minutes. I think one of the only ways that Kelly plays the 5 is if we're up against a really, really good shot blocker who isn't that mobile and K wants to remove the defender from the post. Only then do I see RK playing the 5.Well, let's take a look at the ACC rosters at center.

If Ryan get sup to his goal of 240, he will be average in terms of height and in terms of weight for ACC centers, though some of these guys listed at last year's weight may have bulked up too as Miles has.

So need to stop thinking of him as too small to play the 5, and can also examine these guys for who would have mobility issues guarding Ryan Kelly.

Tracy Smith NC St 6' 08" 247
Tyler Zeller UNC 7' 00" 240
Jordan Williams MD 6' 10" 260
Josh Southern BC 6' 10" 250
Mason Plumlee Duke 6' 10" 230
Jerai Grant Clemson 6' 08" 220
Victor Davila VaT 6' 08" 245
Justin Knox UNC 6' 09" 240
Ty Walker WF 7' 00" 220
Miles Plumlee Duke 6' 10" 240
James Johnson UVA 6' 09" 212
Reggie Johnson Miami 6' 10" 295
Xavier Gibson FSU 6' 11" 240
Jon Kreft FSU 7' 00" 240
Assane Sene UVA 7' 00" 234
Catalin Baciu Clemson 7' 02" 245
Brad Sheehan GaT 7' 00" 235
Jordan Vandenberg NC St 7' 00" 230
Carson Desrosiers WF 6' 10" 210
John Brandenburg UVA 6' 11" 240
Cadarian Raines VaT 6' 06" 210

I think Duke needs to go with the bearded mountain man as primary center and then decide on Mason versus Ryan based on the competition and stage of the game.

hq2
07-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Well we know Ryan could probably play the 5. But can do it better than the Plumlees? Based on what we've seen so far, taking into account this year's improvement by all players, my
answer is no.

Greg_Newton
07-26-2010, 05:36 PM
I'll be glad to respond to that. Kelly is only 6-9, and he's not a good leaper. In fact, his hops will be reduced with the new extra bulk. That means he will not be either a shot blocker or intimidator under the basket. Don't get me wrong; he can stil play in the low post. But his natural position there is 4, not 5, where he can concentrate on defending his man (a shorter player) and rebounding.

I agree his natural position is the 4, but that's the only part of this I agree with. Kelly was recently quoted as saying he was 6'9-3/4" barefoot, which is roughly equivalent to a 6'11 listed height. He's also quite long and has shown terrific timing on shotblocking. He had the highest blocks per minute on our team last season along with Mason, and it wasn't just a function of getting low minutes - in the 7 games he played double digit minutes, he averaged 1.7 blocks, including 4 against Gonzaga. Miles and Mason are better athletes, but I would argue that he is the best natural shotblocker on our team.

COYS
07-26-2010, 06:22 PM
My money is on his added strength being more than sufficient to compensate for the added weight. And as his minutes increase, his reaction time on the court should improve as well. If Ryan's BPM doesn't improve this season, it's likely to be attributable to a change in team defense.

I strongly second this comment. By this logic Lebron James is no longer the leaper he was when he was 18 because he weighs too much more, now. This is simply not true. Too much bulk can undoubtedly hurt mobility and leaping ability. However, there is a happy medium where increaesed leg strength (the largest muscles and the muscles most responsible for significant weight gain) adds both bulk and strength for leaping. Plus, Gerald Henderson, DeMarcus Nelson, JJ Redick and many other guards in Duke's recent past have noticeably increased their strength, leaping ability, and agility while simultaneously bulking up.

JayBean
07-26-2010, 06:43 PM
Does anyone else see this argument as similar to the "Scheyer is a below average defender" threads we had a while back?

AZLA
07-26-2010, 07:02 PM
Strength training is an extremely important component to minimizing opportunities for injury (as well as recovering from one) and a benefit sometimes overlooked. 'Bulking up' is entirely different than adding lean and more dense (thus heavier) muscle mass. If they gain muscle weight, it improves torque (or power). What these athletes are doing is the latter and under the guidance of expert trainers and dieticians with proven systems. It's amusing to see comments suggesting it would somehow diminish athletic ability. It's not like they are carbo-loading to become NFL linemen.

hq2
07-26-2010, 09:39 PM
Don't be silly. I never suggested strength training decreased leaping ability. Of course it helps, when done for leg strength. However, what I have heard is that Kelly has gained about 20 pounds, and a lot of that is upper body. Now, that's fine for rebounding, but it's extra weight to carry arround. Both Chris BUrghess and Sahvilik Randolph gained about 20 oounds of upper body strength, and both were noticeably slower and jumped less high, as they had to carry the extra weight around. With Burgess, the decline was particularly noticeable, but Shavlik didn't make the NBA until he lost it and got some of his quickness bac

Now. If RK has put on enough leg strength to counter carrying the extra arm weight, he'll be fine. If he hssn't then he'll be slower. 'nuff said.

jipops
07-26-2010, 11:59 PM
Don't be silly. I never suggested strength training decreased leaping ability. Of course it helps, when done for leg strength. However, what I have heard is that Kelly has gained about 20 pounds, and a lot of that is upper body. Now, that's fine for rebounding, but it's extra weight to carry arround. Both Chris BUrghess and Sahvilik Randolph gained about 20 oounds of upper body strength, and both were noticeably slower and jumped less high, as they had to carry the extra weight around. With Burgess, the decline was particularly noticeable, but Shavlik didn't make the NBA until he lost it and got some of his quickness bac

Now. If RK has put on enough leg strength to counter carrying the extra arm weight, he'll be fine. If he hssn't then he'll be slower. 'nuff said.

I'm not so sure Shav is a good argument here. Yes he did put on weight but his injury and health issues prevented him from a lot of conditioning to go with the weight gain. I would think this could result in the decline of quickness, not simply from just gaining weight. Not trying to make excuses for the guy, but the fact is he was rarely ever healthy in his time at Duke.

No amount of hops or quickness was going to enable Burgess to become a better ft shooter or scorer from 10ft in. Burgess had a number of areas that needed work, not much different than most guys. It's not like he was blessed with the quicks in the first place.

Now back to Dawkins, more than anything with Dre I'm intrigued about what type of defender he'll be.

AZLA
07-27-2010, 01:08 AM
I'm hoping Andre elevates and swats Bullock's shot all the way back to CH. And if he and RK lose their vertical from working out too much, they can ditche their trainers and call Jimmy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlrWnahTiMo&feature=related).

Osiagledknarf
08-12-2010, 11:39 AM
More Andre Dawkins highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNpy3f-Xtfs

CEF1959
08-12-2010, 12:19 PM
I'm reading a lot of posts suggesting that Dre is really just a dangerous jump shooter with limited athletic abilities beyond that role, limiting his potential contributions.

I disagree. His role last year was not that of an athletic 1 or 2. He wasn't needed for that. But he has those skills. I'm not sure this year will be his breakout year, with KI, Nolan, and Seth out front and Kyle handling the 3 slot most of the time. But if you've seen tape of what Dre can do athletically, you see more than a pure jump shooter. I doubt he'll be another JJ from outside, but he has the athleticism to contribute more slashing moves to the basket. I see his junior and senior years to be big.

ivduke
08-12-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm not sure what everyone's particular definition of "athletic" is, but I was at the NC Pro-Am semi-finals where in the waning seconds of the game Andre dribbled through the lane, tossed the ball off the backboard, and threw down a vicious 1 handed tomahawk dunk. From my angle he caught the ball at approximately the top of the box...... seems pretty "athletic" to me!

roywhite
08-12-2010, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure what everyone's particular definition of "athletic" is, but I was at the NC Pro-Am semi-finals where in the waning seconds of the game Andre dribbled through the lane, tossed the ball off the backboard, and threw down a vicious 1 handed tomahawk dunk. From my angle he caught the ball at approximately the top of the box...... seems pretty "athletic" to me!

It's not athleticism in terms of running and jumping that is an issue IMO. It's ball handling in the larger sense, dribbling and passing.

Would we feel comfortable with Andre as the second guard in a traditional lineup where the frontcourt guys were 6'6" or better? Granted, if his running mate is Kyrie Irving or even Nolan or Seth, we'd have a strong primary ballhandler. But the 2nd guard in such a lineup should still have the ability to move the ball around well, bring it up under some pressure, and even penetrate with the dribble. I can readily see Andre as the 3rd backcourt man or as a swignman SF/2G when two other guards are in the lineup.

To be fair to Andre, he may have developed in this area and do just fine. But I see his ball handling ability as the major question mark.

CDu
08-12-2010, 12:48 PM
It's not athleticism in terms of running and jumping that is an issue IMO. It's ball handling in the larger sense, dribbling and passing.

Would we feel comfortable with Andre as the second guard in a traditional lineup where the frontcourt guys were 6'6" or better? Granted, if his running mate is Kyrie Irving or even Nolan or Seth, we'd have a strong primary ballhandler. But the 2nd guard in such a lineup should still have the ability to move the ball around well, bring it up under some pressure, and even penetrate with the dribble. I can readily see Andre as the 3rd backcourt man or as a swignman SF/2G when two other guards are in the lineup.

To be fair to Andre, he may have developed in this area and do just fine. But I see his ball handling ability as the major question mark.

Exactly. I don't think that many people question Dawkins' athleticism. I think he certainly has the speed and leaping ability to attack off the dribble. It's more a question of whether he's gotten comfortable handling the ball to make those things happen. And further, it's a question of his ability to make good decisions after putting the ball on the floor (e.g., do I go to the rim, do I pull up, or do I look to pass). Those are areas in which we didn't see much from Dawkins last year. It's possible he's made great strides in that regard. If so, this is a non-issue. But that remains to be seen.

Kedsy
08-12-2010, 12:56 PM
To be fair to Andre, he may have developed in this area and do just fine. But I see his ball handling ability as the major question mark.

Personally I don't think his ballhandling will be a problem, so long as he's playing with a true point and not a combo-point. It's not like Trajan Langdon was a super ballhandler, and he did fine. I think the bigger question mark for Andre is defense.

The only other possible issue I can think of is we heard Andre didn't give a full effort in practice last year. Granted, he went through so many more personal issues than a typical freshman (or a typical anybody for that matter), so hopefully he'll be able to focus on his basketball and effort won't be a thing this year. Anybody who doesn't give maximum effort all the time on the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be in serious danger of losing minutes.

Osiagledknarf
08-13-2010, 04:42 PM
Personally I don't think his ballhandling will be a problem, so long as he's playing with a true point and not a combo-point. It's not like Trajan Langdon was a super ballhandler, and he did fine. I think the bigger question mark for Andre is defense.

The only other possible issue I can think of is we heard Andre didn't give a full effort in practice last year. Granted, he went through so many more personal issues than a typical freshman (or a typical anybody for that matter), so hopefully he'll be able to focus on his basketball and effort won't be a thing this year. Anybody who doesn't give maximum effort all the time on the 2010-11 Blue Devils will be in serious danger of losing minutes.

I think that had to mainly do with his mind being in another with his sister passing early during the season. All of our minds would be a different place if something like that happened to one of us.

I think Andre will be a lot more focused and ready this season. I expect him to be a very affective player off the bench for us. He should add some great shooting and good athletic ability.

I agree with you if he doesn't give full effort, he will be sitting at the end of the bench but I don't see that as an issue. I see him as the 3rd SG and the primary backup SF to Singler.

So I see it as this:

Irving/Curry/Thornton
Smith/Curry/Dawkins
Singler/Dawkins/Hairston
Mason/Kelly/Singler/Hairston
Miles/Kelly

Just get your popcorn ready people!!! It's gonna be a show!!!

Devilsfan
08-13-2010, 05:24 PM
Can't wait to see our "baby face" Dawkins not take a back seat to Nolan and Curry but respond to their pushing him for PT at the two. Also can't wait to see our young private school bigs grow up and bang inside like true ACC big men. We have enough outside fire power with Singler, Nolan, Dawkins and Curry. Zoubs inside play got us the fourth banner imo.

Osiagledknarf
09-06-2010, 01:04 PM
This is a video of Dre from his Junior Year: So athletic and smooth;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8z_H5i7Qx0&feature=related

Azdukefan
09-06-2010, 04:58 PM
I think we are all guilty of expecting too much from "a year early" freshman last year. Then with his sister's passing, you could see Andre just feeling like he was detached from the team. I can't say it enough, we owe Andre big time for coming in early and taking the spot EWill left open.

This year we will see more of that smooth stroke (see the UW game) and more of his athletic ability (see the dunk v. Ga Tech). But the reality is Andre's real breakout year will be next year 2011-2012.

Coming in Andre was dub a notch below JJ in shooting and a notch below G in athleticism. This type of raw talent only has no choice but to flourish. I look forward to seeing Andre progress.

*Did I mention he was one of my favorite Dukie's before he ever played his first game?

dcar1985
09-06-2010, 07:30 PM
Dre just posted on Twitter that he was going to visit his mommy who just moved to Durham...I think that might have a positive impact on him this year, jus from certain interviews and following him on Twitter he seems like a bit of a home body and that may help with some home sickness issues and make it easier to focus on improving his game and playing well....can't hurt to have mom right down the road

_TheFakeJWill_
09-06-2010, 07:37 PM
I think the 2 biggest surprises this year will be Dre and Kelly.... mark it down :D

I remembered how giddy i was when i heard Andre was coming in a year early... to think i was like "wow we actually might have a chance this year" to becoming NCAA Champions. Thanks Duke for humbling me :)

greybeard
09-06-2010, 11:46 PM
Strength training is an extremely important component to minimizing opportunities for injury (as well as recovering from one) and a benefit sometimes overlooked. 'Bulking up' is entirely different than adding lean and more dense (thus heavier) muscle mass. If they gain muscle weight, it improves torque (or power). What these athletes are doing is the latter and under the guidance of expert trainers and dieticians with proven systems. It's amusing to see comments suggesting it would somehow diminish athletic ability. It's not like they are carbo-loading to become NFL linemen.

Not to put too fine a line on it, but I think that this business that uber training reduces the incidence of injury is nonsense, and that quite the opposite is much more likely to be the case. Joints do get stronger, nor do ligaments. Muscles put more torque on both, people run faster/more powerfully, cut faster/more powerfully, push on each other with greater force and more mass, jump higher, and try to do things that they wouldn't otherwise try that have greater risk.

All and all, working out is required to keep up with the competition, as long as it don't put you out of commission first. It adds to the wow factor in sports, to the ESPNization of them, but puts more talented people down and ultimately detracts from the play, unless you are just thrilled to see the latest and greatest dunk or whatever.

Training sells pizzazz, which means it sells sports. Athletes pay the price. That's the list.

Bob Green
09-07-2010, 12:46 PM
It adds to the wow factor in sports, to the ESPNization of them....

I realize I'm straying off topic here, but kudos on a GREAT comment. With one word, you hit the nail on the head in regard to my frustration with the 21st Century sports environment! A basket where the ball is routinely laid in off the backboard counts for two points as does a backboard jarring thunder dunk. One play will be ignored while the other will be replayed on SportsCenter several dozen times.

mattman91
09-07-2010, 02:30 PM
I think Dre will break out next season. I mean really, Irving, Smith, Curry....thats a lot of talent. Next season smith will be gone, Irving should be gone and we may or may not get Rivers.

AZLA
09-07-2010, 06:10 PM
Not to put too fine a line on it, but I think that this business that uber training reduces the incidence of injury is nonsense, and that quite the opposite is much more likely to be the case. Joints do get stronger, nor do ligaments. Muscles put more torque on both, people run faster/more powerfully, cut faster/more powerfully, push on each other with greater force and more mass, jump higher, and try to do things that they wouldn't otherwise try that have greater risk.

All and all, working out is required to keep up with the competition, as long as it don't put you out of commission first. It adds to the wow factor in sports, to the ESPNization of them, but puts more talented people down and ultimately detracts from the play, unless you are just thrilled to see the latest and greatest dunk or whatever.

Training sells pizzazz, which means it sells sports. Athletes pay the price. That's the list.

You may be right and I certainly agree that there's been an emphasis placed on the wow factor that "uber" weight training ties into. I like the coining of term ESPNization.

As a former athlete (not basketball), that's what I was told by the strength and conditioning coaches along with an orthopedic surgeon and in rehab. I agree -- I'm not talking about intense weight training ("uber" as you put it), but more along the lines of strengthing and conditioning, which includes stretching (range of motion) -- and targeting smaller muscle groups.

It seems to be a prevelant philosophy. I remember when I saw a friend get thrown backwards in a wrestling match and land akwardly on his neck in a way that it appeared would break the average person's neck. At least that's what the coaches said, so wether or not its true, most athletes and coaches buy into it. I wouldn't necessarily chalk it up to nonsense.

AZLA
09-07-2010, 06:41 PM
Regarding joints -- the Mayo Clinic states,

"Strength training also helps you:

Reduce your risk of injury. Building muscle helps protect your joints from injury. It also contributes to better balance, which can help you maintain independence as you age."

Duke School of Medicine reports on DukeHealth.org:

"Weight training can play an important role in preventing athletic injuries as well as improving athletic performance. Weight training can serve to balance the strength in muscle groups around specific joints and reduce the risk of injury; consultation with an athletic trainer, physical therapist or sports medicine physician may help design such programs."