Where's Waldo--I mean the Indiana University basketball program?

[House G]

For a good part of my life, the Indiana Hoosiers have been one of the dominant programs in men's college basketball. They have won five national championships, twenty Big Ten championships, and are one of the winningest programs of all time. The plight of their program since the latter years of Bob Knight and his dismissal in 2000 has not been pretty. The struggles of Mike Davis and the problems under Kelvin Sampson are well-chronicled. Tom Crean took over in April of 2008 and they were 6-25 in 2008-09 with a 1-17 record in the Big Ten and last year were 10-21 and 4-15.

I really haven't given their program much thought in recent years because they have been such a non-factor. I recently ran across the following blog written during this year's NCAA tournament. It was interesting to me to see one (? paranoid) Indiana fan's perspective about their program on many levels: comparing Indiana's current situation to the Baylor and Kentucky programs, the concerns about the success of in-state rivals Butler and Purdue, the inability to recruit nationally but also in-state, etc. I found it amusing when he previewed the Duke-Purdue game. He was afraid of what a Purdue win would do for their (Purdue's) program but was also concerned about a Duke win and a possible 4th national championship (one behind Indiana). Of course he talks about Duke getting all the calls and having the easiest draw ever. (He failed to mention the non-call against Jared Jeffries against Carlos Boozer).

http://cbbtruth.wordpress.com/

I'm sure Indiana will turn their program around at some point--these things tend to go through cycles. In some ways it reminds me of Notre Dame football. I expect them to be good again but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Any thoughts?

[CEF1959]

I'm sure Indiana will turn their program around at some point--these things tend to go through cycles. In some ways it reminds me of Notre Dame football. I expect them to be good again but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Any thoughts?

If they're just in a down cycle, it's a long cycle. NC State and UNLV are on similar cycles. What goes up must come down, but the reverse is not always true. But it's an all American program, so I wish them well.

[JG Nothing]

I'm sure Indiana will turn their program around at some point--these things tend to go through cycles. In some ways it reminds me of Notre Dame football. I expect them to be good again but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Any thoughts?

Enjoy the K era while we have it. You never know how things will go after he retires.

[hedevil]

I was thinking the same thing as to when K leaves. The key will be who comes next. If the next Duke coach takes over a talented team, and is able to make a smooth transition while having the success Duke fans are accustomed to (winning), then we should be alright. For some reason, I really feel that coach K and the staff will be very careful as to how they handle that when the time comes.

But that's 20 years away. One can dream, right?:D

[DukeCO2009]

I was thinking the same thing as to when K leaves. The key will be who comes next. If the next Duke coach takes over a talented team, and is able to make a smooth transition while having the success Duke fans are accustomed to (winning), then we should be alright. For some reason, I really feel that coach K and the staff will be very careful as to how they handle that when the time comes.

But that's 20 years away. One can dream, right?:D

I don't think that's too far-fetched. Although realistically I expect K to stay +/- 10 more years, I could see him staying 15 or so (which would put him at age 78). He's in great shape and is as enthusiastic and active (see: Olympic team, book tours, etc.) as ever. One can certainly dream, though--of a bionic, ageless K ;).

[devildeac]

I don't think that's too far-fetched. Although realistically I expect K to stay +/- 10 more years, I could see him staying 15 or so (which would put him at age 78). He's in great shape and is as enthusiastic and active (see: Olympic team, book tours, etc.) as ever. One can certainly dream, though--of a bionic, ageless K ;).

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I am sure Penn State has a mandatory retirement age as well ... seems not to be affecting JoePa.

[77devil]

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

The rules for tenured faculty may have changed. My favorite professor, Harold Parker, officially "retired" at 72 but continued to teach. John Hope Franklin was a professor in the Law School until 77. Nevertheless, I doubt there is mandatory retirement for the basketball coach, nor do I think it would be legal, unless it was agreed to by contract. (proviso: I am not an employment lawyer.) Didn't Nan and Coach K ink his contract for life?

[sagegrouse]

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

Policies and rules for tenured faculty have absolutely nothing to do with the length of service of the basketball coach. All universities have had a problem tenured faculty to retire and open up slots for younger, more productive scholars.

Coach K has a "contract" that would supersede any of the rules and policies, unless they are specifically referenced. The fact that the contract has a "term of service" would make a mandatory retirement age irrelevant. Perhaps I should say, IMHO, since I am not a lawyer, although I have seen a number of employment contracts.

OTOH, age 70 is getting up there for a position as demanding as head basketball coach at Duke. I would guess that in 4-5 years K will have to address the issue of his future tenure on the recruiting trail.

sagegrouse

[Atlanta Duke]

One of the toughest decisions in sports is knowing when to say goodbye - John Wooden and Al McGuire had the good fortune to go out on top, but sad situations such as how Bobby Bowden departed are more often how a careeer winds up

It will be a sad day when he steps down, but my bet is K has enough interests outside of coaching that he will be not coaching into his 70s.

[devildeac]

Policies and rules for tenured faculty have absolutely nothing to do with the length of service of the basketball coach. All universities have had a problem tenured faculty to retire and open up slots for younger, more productive scholars.

Coach K has a "contract" that would supersede any of the rules and policies, unless they are specifically referenced. The fact that the contract has a "term of service" would make a mandatory retirement age irrelevant. Perhaps I should say, IMHO, since I am not a lawyer, although I have seen a number of employment contracts.

OTOH, age 70 is getting up there for a position as demanding as head basketball coach at Duke. I would guess that in 4-5 years K will have to address the issue of his future tenure on the recruiting trail.

sagegrouse

Heck, as far as I am concerned, he can sit on a 3 or 4 legged stool on the sidelines of an elevated court or two until he's 90, considering the result we had this year;).

Seriously, that is probably a reasonable time frame to expect. And, just to keep it on topic, maybe he can go revive the IU program after he is finished his "tenure" at Duke (jk).

[Cockabeau]

K is a legend/god.

IMO, he will coach atleast 10 more years. Duke basketball is a part of K's family and vice versa. With the fourth ring, K has little to prove to anyone. The pressure valve is released so to speak. Although he will never do it, he can almost coach in a more laid back mode. K at 40% is better than most coaches...

[sandinmyshoes]

Indiana will be back. Basketball is still so much a part of the state's culture from high school on up that it's bound to happen.

As for Coach K, it's hard to imagine him doing anything else. There will come a point though where his age will be used against him in recruiting. There is also the real possibility that the nature of college basketball will become so different that he just doesn't want to be a part of it.

Dean Smith and John Wooden both alluded to that sort of thing happening to them. I think with Smith he said that he loved coaching the game itself, but all the "other stuff" sapped his enjoyment of the job. By other stuff I assume he meant recruiting, the media spotlight and so on.

Coach K may be creating the template for dealing with that. Duke haters point to his not doing half time interviews. They joke us about his "bunker mentality" and so forth, claiming that he is arrogant or whatever. But really, I think he is wisely insulating himself from some of the stuff that irritated coaches like Smith, Wooden and Knight.

[DukieBoy]

Being a student at IU, it was surprising to me how optimistic and passionate all the students were for Indiana basketball. I grew up in Indiana, so basketball runs in my blood. I was anxious to see the basketball team this year, and I was joined by about 10,000 other kids on campus.

The team started off decent, but hit a huge losing skid in the middle of conference play. Regardless, I won't forget the IU-Purdue game at Assembly Hall this year. It was my first time seeing the rivalry in person (which, I must add, is one of the most underrated rivalries in all of sports) and, despite IU having a below .500 record, Assembly Hall was sold out. And IU stayed in the game the whole time, even holding a lead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rM-klBYG88) with under 6:00 minutes left (1 minute mark in link).

As the year went on, the team obviously lost support from fans, but in the last home game, which IU won, the building was still 80-85% full. The support has been and probably always will be there. It's not completely on the team and coach to produce. This upcoming season might be one of the most talked about seasons at IU in a long time. Everyone in Bloomington is anxious for that basketball team to get to it's high level again.

And one other thing I've noticed. In his time at IU, Crean has won less than 30 games (not sure of the exact total), but everyone at IU loves him. I'm not sure what it is about him, but no one seems to be upset with him. It might be his passion for the game or the fact he's a very public figure (I personally have seen him at numerous football and baseball games with his family). Whatever it is, it's not something I expected towards a coach with an awful coaching record.

But I'm just hoping Crean begins to follow in K's footsteps and bring IU back into the national spotlight

[m g]

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

Duke has many professors over 70... there is no policy like this. Unless your friend's dad was one of the visiting professors/guest lecturers who were not asked back because of the financial crisis, he's not being straight with you.

[devildeac]

Duke has many professors over 70... there is no policy like this. Unless your friend's dad was one of the visiting professors/guest lecturers who were not asked back because of the financial crisis, he's not being straight with you.

I wonder then if the medical faculty are treated differently as he was likely a full professor there for over 30 years. Didn't want to go into too many details for his privacy but I'll ask him next time I see/talk with him.

[cspan37421]

Heck, as far as I am concerned, he can sit on a 3 or 4 legged stool on the sidelines of an elevated court or two until he's 90, considering the result we had this year;).

Upon reading this quote, did anyone else think of Jeremy Bentham, and then, "why stop at 90?"

"Present but not coaching."

[tecumseh]

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

There really is no longer mandatory retirement in most professions
http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/ger-econ.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act

Although at many places there is a strong tradition of people retiring at a certain age. This is a BIG problem in academia, let's face it the job of a tenured college professor is pretty cushy, teach a few classes you know by heart, nod off in a few meetings, go to what is an awesome athletic club by any standard, attend a few cultural and or musical events. Why retire. That is the problem once mandatory retirement went out in the early 90s our college faculty has become increasingly geriatric.

[ElSid]

Blah. Coach K can coach as long as he wants. Frankly, I don't see the demise of Bobby Bowden or Joe Pa as that inglorious. It is what it is. They have had a few decent seasons as octogenarians. Coach K, I think, can probably do this for another 5-10 years, no sweat. If he wants to be a Joe Pa figure, he can do that, too. Having Wojo and Collins and James basically running a lot of the operational aspects of the program means that K can essentially be a strategy consultant and a figurehead, which is great for the program.

BUT, as for Indiana Basketball, I think it will come back. Crean is a very competent coach who really just needs a signature recruit or two, a la Dwayne Wade, to get the wheels turning again. There is limitless money to support the effort. I think they need to give Crean a couple more years. Would hate to see them can him prematurely, like Iowa did Lickliter...who, by almost all accounts, wasn't the charismatic personality that Crean is.

Now, Iowa basketball. There's a depressing thread. It'll be a long long time before that phoenix rises.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Blah. Coach K can coach as long as he wants. Frankly, I don't see the demise of Bobby Bowden or Joe Pa as that inglorious. It is what it is. They have had a few decent seasons as octogenarians. Coach K, I think, can probably do this for another 5-10 years, no sweat. If he wants to be a Joe Pa figure, he can do that, too. Having Wojo and Collins and James basically running a lot of the operational aspects of the program means that K can essentially be a strategy consultant and a figurehead, which is great for the program.

BUT, as for Indiana Basketball, I think it will come back. Crean is a very competent coach who really just needs a signature recruit or two, a la Dwayne Wade, to get the wheels turning again. There is limitless money to support the effort. I think they need to give Crean a couple more years. Would hate to see them can him prematurely, like Iowa did Lickliter...who, by almost all accounts, wasn't the charismatic personality that Crean is.

Now, Iowa basketball. There's a depressing thread. It'll be a long long time before that phoenix rises.


Oh man, Iowa is in a world of hurt right now. What a mess. You are probably right with Indiana, but man does Tom Crean annoy me. I don't know why, but the guy is just a little too animated for me. He is always pacing the sidelines up and down, up and down, always looks stressed. It's like the guy can't sit still. He just doesn't seem like a very chill guy that players would relate to. Maybe I am totally wrong, but he is not my cup of tea.

[WiJoe]

In his time at IU, Crean has won less than 30 games (not sure of the exact total), but everyone at IU loves him. I'm not sure what it is about him, but no one seems to be upset with him. It might be his passion for the game or the fact he's a very public figure (I personally have seen him at numerous football and baseball games with his family). Whatever it is, it's not something I expected towards a coach with an awful coaching record.

But I'm just hoping Crean begins to follow in K's footsteps and bring IU back into the national spotlight

I'm not going to go into great detail, but Crean is a fraud and a phony. Just the way he left his previous job, where his players found out on espn that he was leaving.

Your hopes should be directed as whomever follows Crean. I've heard if he has one more season like last season (not likely), he will be OUTTA THERE.

He can't recruit in state. He can't recruit out of state.

No players = no job.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

A friend's father recently retired from the Duke faculty at the age of 70. He told me it was a mandatory retirement. I'm not counting on seeing K on the Duke sidelines coaching for another 15 years:(.

Mandatory retirement rules are illegal for most jobs. In particular, mandatory retirement (at the age of 70) was abolished in 1994 for universities in the United States.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/7818161/Did-the-Elimination-of-Mandatory-Retirement-Affect-Faculty-Retirement

[roywhite]

I'm not going to go into great detail, but Crean is a fraud and a phony. Just the way he left his previous job, where his players found out on espn that he was leaving.

Your hopes should be directed as whomever follows Crean. I've heard if he has one more season like last season (not likely), he will be OUTTA THERE.

He can't recruit in state. He can't recruit out of state.

No players = no job.

Not sure what to make of Crean and his prospects of reviving the IU program:

Never heard exactly why Kyrie Irving and his family eliminated IU from recruiting consideration---there was something the family really did not like about the approach from IU.

While Kyrie (obviously) was a worthwhile target, seems to me the first approach for IU would have been to get the local kids, within the state of Indiana and neighboring states. That was the basis of Knight's original success, and more recently, look at what Butler has accomplished with local kids, some not highly touted on the recruiting lists.

Some Marquette fans have a real hostility towards their ex-coach Crean, using the nickname "Mr. Fake Bake" to refer to his year-around tan and general phoniness.

The Big10/11 is looking stronger of late. Can Crean and IU reach even the first division anytime soon?

[WiJoe]

Never heard exactly why Kyrie Irving and his family eliminated IU from recruiting consideration---there was something the family really did not like about the approach from IU.

Oh yeah. That, too.


The Big10/11 is looking stronger of late. Can Crean and IU reach even the first division anytime soon?

Doesn't appear likely.

[weezie]

Hey G House!

If I were you, I'd worry more about my twins! :p

weezie's got a new favorite Tiger!!! B-O-E-S-C-H! :D

[House G]

Hey G House!

If I were you, I'd worry more about my twins! :p

weezie's got a new favorite Tiger!!! B-O-E-S-C-H! :D

Is that because he is tall and nice-looking or because he is hitting .380? :rolleyes:

[hurleyfor3]

This is not strictly on topic, but in the past a professor at Duke would receive more money to retire (from his/her pension) than to keep teaching after a certain age. This was around age 65-67 in the early 1990s iirc and may still be the case. Point is no one was/is forcing a professor to retire but money is hard to argue with.

[MisterRoddy]

This is in response to the people saying "enjoy K while we still have him" and what not...Duke is a basketball power and having the Duke coaching job is pretty much like having an NBA coaching job...Great coaches would line up to get this job. I'm not saying that we are sure to get a great coach after K leaves, but its likely that we will get a very good one.

examples: UK and Cal (yes the guys dirty, but you cant deny that he gets his teams to the top)
UNC and Roy
Kansas and Self
you guys get the point.

[dukemsu]

I'm not going to go into great detail, but Crean is a fraud and a phony. Just the way he left his previous job, where his players found out on espn that he was leaving.

Your hopes should be directed as whomever follows Crean. I've heard if he has one more season like last season (not likely), he will be OUTTA THERE.

He can't recruit in state. He can't recruit out of state.

No players = no job.

Crean is a force of nature as a personality, but the jury is certainly out on his ability to recruit and X and O in games.

He's also in an unbelievably bad position right now with Painter loading up at Purdue and Butler's rise to prominence. The biggest problem is the net that Matta has tossed around the AAU programs in Indianapolis. IU is now, in the eyes of many recruits, the fourth most prominent program in Indiana considering the Buckeye presence.

Crean is going to have to find players in a hurry-from somewhere. Stevens at Butler looms as a large shadow-no matter how many years he just signed for, it's not hard to fathom that he'd think seriously about the IU job if approached.

Still IU should be able to jump a couple of pegs and get back to 7-8 in the Big 10 this season, with Iowa being awful, Michigan losing the only two decent players they had, and Penn State being a one-man band (Battle).

dukemsu

[WiJoe]

Crean is going to have to find players in a hurry-from somewhere.

He has not shown the ability to do that. His career has been built on the back of Dwyane Wade. Simple as that. Course, Wade's a real charmer, too (google: wade divorce).

:D

[ElSid]

He has not shown the ability to do that. His career has been built on the back of Dwyane Wade. Simple as that. Course, Wade's a real charmer, too (google: wade divorce).

:D

True. I guess I think of him as competent mostly because he got Dwayne Wade and they liked each other. And he seemed charismatic in interviews.

If he can't recruit soon, he's definitely in trouble.

Bloomington is a pretty fun college town. Shouldn't be that hard to recruit there right?

[A-Tex Devil]

Kelvin Sampson almost singlehandedly killed this program. I think Crean can bring it back, but it's in the same boat as post-Valvano NC State and post-UNLV Tarkanian.

Sampson was bringing in some top flight recruits (didn't a couple of them end up on Xavier?). Indiana was going to be very good. But he's a cheater and an idiot cheater at that, he got canned, they lost the recruits, and had to start from literally scratch.

Indiana has more history than NC State or UNLV, but another poster was right -- they are losing their cache among high school athletes. 2002 was 8 years ago, and, frankly, they weren't that good that year. The apt comparison may be Kentucky when Pitino came in, and they recovered, but even his cupboard wasn't as bare as Crean's was in his first season.

[Atlanta Duke]

This is in response to the people saying "enjoy K while we still have him" and what not...Duke is a basketball power and having the Duke coaching job is pretty much like having an NBA coaching job...Great coaches would line up to get this job. I'm not saying that we are sure to get a great coach after K leaves, but its likely that we will get a very good one.

examples: UK and Cal (yes the guys dirty, but you cant deny that he gets his teams to the top)
UNC and Roy
Kansas and Self
you guys get the point.

I sure do

Duke and Bucky Waters after Vic Bubas stepped down

[MisterRoddy]

I sure do

Duke and Bucky Waters after Vic Bubas stepped down

That was 40 years ago...new time...different circumstances. Most coaches would kill to be the head coach at Duke, and yes, that includes the really good ones.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

I sure do

Duke and Bucky Waters after Vic Bubas stepped down

I was at Duke through that transition and it is hard to express just how great Bubas was and just how bad (but glib and convincing that he could do it) Bucky was.
It IS something to worry about.

[MisterRoddy]

I was at Duke through that transition and it is hard to express just how great Bubas was and just how bad (but glib and convincing that he could do it) Bucky was.
It IS something to worry about.

Well, anytime a great coach like Coach K exits the building you have to worry, but knowing what has happened recently and what historic basketball program Duke has, we are most likely going to get a very good coach and we really shouldn't worry that much. I'm not saying that theres no chance that we do get a dissapointing coach, anything can happen, but its highly likely. IMO, you can't take something that happened as a precedent and apply it to circumstances that would happen around 50 or so years later, the game has and will have changed too much.

The only way I can see us not almost guarenteed to get a very good coach is if we fall off in the next decade but I highly doubt that will happen.

[JG Nothing]

Well, anytime a great coach like Coach K exits the building you have to worry, but knowing what has happened recently and what historic basketball program Duke has, we are most likely going to get a very good coach and we really shouldn't worry that much. I'm not saying that theres no chance that we do get a dissapointing coach, anything can happen, but its highly likely. IMO, you can't take something that happened as a precedent and apply it to circumstances that would happen around 50 or so years later, the game has and will have changed too much.

The only way I can see us not almost guarenteed to get a very good coach is if we fall off in the next decade but I highly doubt that will happen.

All indications are that the next Duke coach will be someone who has sat on the bench beside K. The problem is that no one from K's coaching tree has yet achieved any sustained level of success.

It took North Carolina three hires to find the right person. Indiana is now in its third hire after Knight and the program is struggling. Kentucky hires Smith who wins a national championship his first year with Pitino's players and, then, fails to make the Final Four for the next ten years. Smith is run out of town; UK hires Gillespie who was a disaster; then they get Calipari who will leave them for the NBA, put them on probation, or both.

Coaching transitions are often not smooth, particularly at the elite level. Kansas was fortunate when it hired Self. Hopefully, Duke can have that kind of luck because I seriously doubt an elite coach like Izzo, Self, Boeheim, or Howland is going to be considered or even interested.

[MisterRoddy]

All indications are that the next Duke coach will be someone who has sat on the bench beside K. The problem is that no one from K's coaching tree has yet achieved any sustained level of success.

It took North Carolina three hires to find the right person. Indiana is now in its third hire after Knight and the program is struggling. Kentucky hires Smith who wins a national championship his first year with Pitino's players and, then, fails to make the Final Four for the next ten years. Smith is run out of town; UK hires Gillespie who was a disaster; then they get Calipari who will leave them for the NBA, put them on probation, or both.

Coaching transitions are often not smooth, particularly at the elite level. Kansas was fortunate when it hired Self. Hopefully, Duke can have that kind of luck because I seriously doubt an elite coach like Izzo, Self, Boeheim, or Howland is going to be considered or even interested.

I guess I could see someone on our bench replacing K. If we do this, hopefully, we will groom him into the job for when K knows his years in coaching are declinng and hopefully we can have a more graceful FSU football-like coaching transition (without them forcing him out and let him leave when he wants to but still have a coach in waiting as insurance)

I could also see them hiring a guy like Brad Stevens (if he wont have already taken over at a big program) or maybe a Mark Few-type...or any other proven coach thats willing to take the reigns as head coach at Duke

Either way, I like the chances that we find a very good coach to replace K with

[Indoor66]

I was at Duke through that transition and it is hard to express just how great Bubas was and just how bad (but glib and convincing that he could do it) Bucky was.
It IS something to worry about.

I think one of the difficulties was the changing times and changing attitudes of youth.

Vic left because he could not relate to the kids of the late 60's - who could? Bucky moved in with the same background as Vic and also could not relate to the new attitudes. He was bound to fail.

Unfortunately many of those kids now rule the roost and look a the mess we have today!

[77devil]

All indications are that the next Duke coach will be someone who has sat on the bench beside K.

What indications are these? To my knowledge, there has been no such information. If you are assuming that Coach K's well known, high value on loyalty will carry the decision, that is quite an extrapolation. There is no objective evidence yet that any of the former or current assistants will be the best replacement when Coach K retires.

I wrote yesterday in the UNC thread that picking from within without an exhaustive and objective external search would be a mistake.


One need only look at Duke's own experience replacing Bubas to appreciate how bad it can get by hiring from within. Coach K's replacement should be the outcome of a national search with Coach having considerable input.

Duke fans will have to moderate their initial expectations of the program when it comes time to replace the legend.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I wonder then if the medical faculty are treated differently as he was likely a full professor there for over 30 years. Didn't want to go into too many details for his privacy but I'll ask him next time I see/talk with him.
It's my dad that DD is talking about. He is now "retired" from Duke in that he is no longer doing research in his program affiliated with the medical center, but he is still working with med students and probably will be until he's 100. I'm assuming it's the hospital that boots you at 70. I loved his idea of retiring, he set up a smaller office right next to his old one. :) As far as the school itself goes, I know of at least one professor who is over 90, he teaches history.