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View Full Version : Hayward officially staying in draft



DukieBoy
05-05-2010, 03:21 PM
Link (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100505/SPORTS0605/100505020/Butler-s-Gordon-Hayward-to-stay-in-NBA-draft)

Duvall
05-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Link (http://www.indystar.com/article/20100505/SPORTS0605/100505020/Butler-s-Gordon-Hayward-to-stay-in-NBA-draft)

Is it too late to cancel the game, or did we put a non-refundable deposit down on the IZOD Center?

Big Pappa
05-05-2010, 03:32 PM
Is it too late to cancel the game, or did we put a non-refundable deposit down on the IZOD Center?

Those Bulldog fans will be looking longingly at Kyle the whole game, wishing their big, white stud had decided to stay. But honestly I think they each made the best decision for their respective situations.

MCFinARL
05-05-2010, 03:58 PM
Well, this sounds a little more certain than what we already knew, but it's still "according to sources," with a formal announcement to come Friday, so I'm not sure it counts as "official."

camion
05-05-2010, 03:59 PM
I think they each made the best decision me. :)

I also hope they each made the best decision for their respective situations.

Eckster
05-05-2010, 04:15 PM
Is it too late to cancel the game, or did we put a non-refundable deposit down on the IZOD Center?

It's gonna be a great game even without Hayward. They're a solid and scrappy team with a good coach. It'll be a great out of conference game for Duke.

Big Pappa
05-05-2010, 04:38 PM
It's gonna be a great game even without Hayward. They're a solid and scrappy team with a good coach. It'll be a great out of conference game for Duke.

No doubt they are a solid team but Hayward is a game changer. They won't be nearly as good without him.

SCMatt33
05-05-2010, 04:44 PM
No doubt they are a solid team but Hayward is a game changer. They won't be nearly as good without him.

They won't be as good. They could have been top 5 with him. But I still expect them to be in the 15-20 range without him, and possibly 10-15 if they're playing well to start the year.

Jderf
05-05-2010, 05:00 PM
They won't be as good. They could have been top 5 with him. But I still expect them to be in the 15-20 range without him, and possibly 10-15 if they're playing well to start the year.

Yea, it should still be a tough game. Remember, Hayward didn't play all that well against us in the title game (which we won!!!!!!!!!). He got to the line a lot in the second half, but otherwise he was pretty ineffective from the field (see: Kyle's monstrous D). And in spite of that, they still gave us a seriously tough game. It should still be tight, though it's definitely not as hype-able as if he had stayed.

Eckster
05-05-2010, 05:39 PM
Yea, it should still be a tough game. Remember, Hayward didn't play all that well against us in the title game (which we won!!!!!!!!!). He got to the line a lot in the second half, but otherwise he was pretty ineffective from the field (see: Kyle's monstrous D). And in spite of that, they still gave us a seriously tough game. It should still be tight, though it's definitely not as hype-able as if he had stayed.

All good points. They aren't the same without him but still a really good team. It's true that he didn't have a monster game in the title match (and thankfully missed his last two shots) but they most likely wouldn't have been there at all without him.

Still, these tough non-conference matchups have become a staple of scheduling for Duke and I think really help prepare the team for late season games, in addition to boosting the computer rankings for non-conf SOS (take notice VA Tech) and TV rankings! I like the "neutral" court too for this game ;)

David
05-05-2010, 06:53 PM
This news makes me all the more grateful to Kyle for deciding to spend one more year at Duke. Kyle outplayed Hayward in the championship game and he could have reached a similar decision regarding his pro prospects. Kyle is the man!

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-05-2010, 06:56 PM
So Duke and MST, are the top tier teams and everyone else is behind them?

houstondukie
05-05-2010, 07:07 PM
They had no significant contributions from their freshman last year, they are not bringing in any significant recruits, and they lose 2 starters (Hayward 6'9 210, Veasley 6'3 205) and another key bench player (Jukes, 6'8 215).

R. Nored - Junior - 6’0 175
Z. Hahn - Senior - 6’1 175
S. Mack - Junior - 6’3 215
S. Vanzant - Senior - 6’6 235
M. Howard - Senior - 6’8 230

They will be an even smaller team than last year, and they will have zero bench.

I think they will be top 15-25, but only because I think next year will be another relatively "down year" in college basketball.

CDu
05-05-2010, 07:15 PM
Yea, it should still be a tough game. Remember, Hayward didn't play all that well against us in the title game (which we won!!!!!!!!!). He got to the line a lot in the second half, but otherwise he was pretty ineffective from the field (see: Kyle's monstrous D). And in spite of that, they still gave us a seriously tough game. It should still be tight, though it's definitely not as hype-able as if he had stayed.

Don't discount the effect that his presence had on the game, even on a tough night. We had to put one of our best defenders on him, and that defender had to stay completely focused on him. In addition, the rest of the defense had to be wary of him.

Without Hayward, that offense looks VERY pedestrian. I'm sure they'll still play tough defense. But I don't see them as any real threat to us next year unless we're also substantially weaker.

Eckster
05-05-2010, 07:47 PM
This news makes me all the more grateful to Kyle for deciding to spend one more year at Duke. Kyle outplayed Hayward in the championship game and he could have reached a similar decision regarding his pro prospects. Kyle is the man!

If Hayward is told 10-20 range in the draft, makes me wonder (again) what Kyle was told his actual draft position would likely be. Same range? Some have suggested lower. Are they really looking at similar prospects and coming to different decisions? Don't know if this is a fair comparison.

MChambers
05-05-2010, 08:05 PM
If Hayward is told 10-20 range in the draft, makes me wonder (again) what Kyle was told his actual draft position would likely be. Same range? Some have suggested lower. Are they really looking at similar prospects and coming to different decisions? Don't know if this is a fair comparison.

In the NBA's mind (oxymoron?), it's all about "upside", and the scouts think that Hayward has more than Kyle, despite the fact that Kyle outplayed Hayward in the title game.

To be fair, I think Hayward is a better ball handler, and the scouts think his other skills (shooting and rebounding, for example) will come along.

Personally, I'd take Kyle.

gumbomoop
05-05-2010, 08:13 PM
So Duke and MST, are the top tier teams and everyone else is behind them?

Absolutely yes, preseason and on paper. One might argue that Purdue could be the logical #3 if both Johnson and Moore withdraw from the draft.

I'm very sorry to see Hayward leave early. Butler is losing a fine, fine player. Can't blame him, and I can certainly see why he's likely lottery, but neither his game nor his body is quite NBA-ready. He's gonna get beat up some. But as many posters have said, it's all potential, he's got it, and he's gettin' his while he can.

NBA sucks [except for Grant, JJ, Boozer, etc.].

OZZIE4DUKE
05-05-2010, 08:14 PM
I said before Hayward left that we're going to beat them by 25 next December. Now, maybe more.

MCFinARL
05-05-2010, 08:35 PM
In the NBA's mind (oxymoron?), it's all about "upside", and the scouts think that Hayward has more than Kyle, despite the fact that Kyle outplayed Hayward in the title game.

To be fair, I think Hayward is a better ball handler, and the scouts think his other skills (shooting and rebounding, for example) will come along.

Personally, I'd take Kyle.

Yeah, the "upside" thing may be overvalued; generally the NBA would rather take a chance on maybe 8, maybe 4 than a certainty of 6 (I chose the numbers randomly, before anyone asks me what they mean). I read somewhere, though, that one reason Hayward is considered to have more upside (in addition to the fact that he is a year younger) is that he grew a lot recently--so he may be still adjusting to playing at his current height.

Duvall
05-05-2010, 08:46 PM
Absolutely yes, preseason and on paper. One might argue that Purdue could be the logical #3 if both Johnson and Moore withdraw from the draft.


If Johnson and Moore both withdraw and Hummel recovers fully from his injury, I have a hard time seeing how Purdue can be rated behind Michigan State. They were certainly better than MSU last year while they still had Hummel.

gumbomoop
05-05-2010, 09:00 PM
If Johnson and Moore both withdraw and Hummel recovers fully from his injury, I have a hard time seeing how Purdue can be rated behind Michigan State. They were certainly better than MSU last year while they still had Hummel.

I'd have no major argument with you here. I'd give edge to Purdue, if based on each team's best 3 players, but an edge to MichSt on depth, overall experience, and better incoming frosh. Maybe OhioSt needs to be in this picture, too; top 3 in Big 10 [if Purdue returns.....] look easily top 5 nationally.

Although I can [almost] imagine someone "cleverly" picking one of those 3 as #1, maybe even more "cleverly" sliding Duke down to #3-4, that'd be nuts. On paper, it's Duke, straight up.

SCMatt33
05-05-2010, 09:34 PM
If Johnson and Moore both withdraw and Hummel recovers fully from his injury, I have a hard time seeing how Purdue can be rated behind Michigan State. They were certainly better than MSU last year while they still had Hummel.

I think you nailed the key word there in fully. When the preseason rankings come out and the season starts, it will be just about 8 months since Hummel's injury. This is usually the minimum amount of time that an athlete takes to get back to playing after an acl tear, and it sometimes takes longer. Usually it takes time playing again for the player to be fully healed. I would expect Hummel to reach or at least nearly reach full strength as the season goes on, but I suspect that he will be limited during preseason practice and at the start of the year. While this shouldn't affect how far they can go, it will affect how they're rated in the preseason.

Jackson
05-06-2010, 05:42 AM
They won't be as good. They could have been top 5 with him. But I still expect them to be in the 15-20 range without him, and possibly 10-15 if they're playing well to start the year.

With him, Butler is a potential National Champion. Without him, Butler is Gonzaga, capable of making noise but not of winning it all. Much less hype about the rematch without him.

greybeard
05-06-2010, 09:25 AM
I think that the guy who stirred the drink for them was their center. Their center was key to their entire offense. His ability to score the ball inside almost at will against bigger/stronger defenders put tremendous pressure on the exterior defenders to help. His ability to distribute it inside out was perhaps the best in the college game. If he is back, so are they.

Points on the exterior and in transition can and will be replaced. They have a great pivot to play around which, in my opinion, was what made their offense so potent. Sure they will miss H but the center makes them the team that they are, in my view.

We'll see.

pfrduke
05-06-2010, 10:12 AM
I think that the guy who stirred the drink for them was their center. Their center was key to their entire offense. His ability to score the ball inside almost at will against bigger/stronger defenders put tremendous pressure on the exterior defenders to help. His ability to distribute it inside out was perhaps the best in the college game. If he is back, so are they.

Points on the exterior and in transition can and will be replaced. They have a great pivot to play around which, in my opinion, was what made their offense so potent. Sure they will miss H but the center makes them the team that they are, in my view.

We'll see.

Howard is back, but the one thing that will now be even more crucial for him is avoiding fouls. I don't know what their recruiting class looks like, but the one guy who backed him up (Jukes) graduated, and the other biggest player (Hayward) is leaving. Matt Howard spent almost every NCAA tournament game in foul trouble, and on the season he committed 3.5 fouls a game, fouling out of 9 games. If he keeps himself off the floor again this year, Butler will struggle.

MChambers
05-06-2010, 10:36 AM
Howard is back, but the one thing that will now be even more crucial for him is avoiding fouls. I don't know what their recruiting class looks like, but the one guy who backed him up (Jukes) graduated, and the other biggest player (Hayward) is leaving. Matt Howard spent almost every NCAA tournament game in foul trouble, and on the season he committed 3.5 fouls a game, fouling out of 9 games. If he keeps himself off the floor again this year, Butler will struggle.

And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

greybeard
05-07-2010, 10:43 AM
And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

Agree completely. I should add that I do not expect Butler to be day-in-and-day-out as good without Hay (I can't believe I'm blocking on how to spell his name). That said, I think that the pressure of a Championship run is terrifically difficult to replicate, terrifically difficult, and without a player of Hay's quality the ability to get it done game-in and game-out, well, I don't expect it to be there.

But, here's the rub. This is a small school which will have a terrific basketball team next year. The Butler faithful will have a blast watching and rooting for them, even if they make no meaningful run in the dance, or even if they should miss it. If they are like the fans that we had when I was at Cornell, did I tell you guys that when my boyz played no. 3 Kentucky we burried em, no one will care. They will enjoy the heck out of the season, going to games without having to sleep out and watching some terrific ball, even if on occasion it is not that terrific. At least that is my hope for them; that there is still a place for that in college.

I sure hope so; otherwise, the kids in Ithaca better get on line for hockey tickets. Cheers!

roywhite
05-07-2010, 10:56 AM
. If they are like the fans that we had when I was at Cornell, did I tell you guys that when my boyz played no. 3 Kentucky we burried em, no one will care. They will enjoy the heck out of the season, going to games without having to sleep out and watching some terrific ball, even if on occasion it is not that terrific. At least that is my hope for them; that there is still a place for that in college.

I sure hope so; otherwise, the kids in Ithaca better get on line for hockey tickets. Cheers!

greybeard---do you go back to Ken Dryden days? Had a buddy that graduated from Cornell in 1972, who caught some of that. I visited Cornell, but never saw a hockey game; I recall a pretty lively bar scene in Ithaca back in the day.

Seems to me Hayward would have benefited considerably from an extra year in school and may not get much playing time initially in the League. He should be a good to very good player down the line IMO.

ScreechTDX1847
05-07-2010, 10:59 AM
I think this is a good move by Hayward. Regardless of what any of you think, I don't think Hayward is an NBA level talent at all and seriously doubt he will do anything to change that in the next two years.

I think he should take advantage of the Butler Final Four publicity and make some coin off of his very short lived (in my opinion) NBA career.

greybeard
05-07-2010, 12:28 PM
greybeard---do you go back to Ken Dryden days? Had a buddy that graduated from Cornell in 1972, who caught some of that. I visited Cornell, but never saw a hockey game; I recall a pretty lively bar scene in Ithaca back in the day.

Graduated 68; went to all the basketball games, hockey not so much, but did catch enough of em. My fraternity brother, Arthur Kaminsky, he was a real hockey nut. Became good friends with Dryden and ended up representing him and the entire, and I do mean entire, Miracle on Ice Team, including the coach. He and his roommate in the house, Alan Alschuler (first CFO of the Doris Duke Trust, small world, eh?), went to the Cornell-Kentucky game with Dryden.

My boy Tony used to be represented by Kaminisky and during the Tournament this year was telling Arthur what a "genuis" I was about the game, emphasizing my take on Duke, why they'd be such a tough out, when he asked Arthur to tell me that he, Tony, had been singing my praises to him. Now, Arthur is pretty inactive now but used to represent lots of talking heads including Al Michaels and T used to always tell me that I should be a head; I think he was trying to get Arthur to, you know, extend himself maybe. Well, Arthur was like among the smartest guys in old Tau Delta Phi and, to say the least, I wasn't. Never a man of many words, Arthur replied, "Tell him yourself." So, Tony did, every day on the radio and once or twice on PTI.

So recently, I'm talkin to Arthur about some Lax stuff, Arthur is super into LAX these days, and he tells me, "You know, I got Tony to give you a couple of shout outs on PTI." Brotherhood, you gotta love it.

Anyway, we at Tau Delt didn't need no stinkin bars. We had the best parties on the hill. We had the two best bands locked up (the Rachets, a Motown band, and Oz and the Ends, more Stones-like), had a great party room adjacent to great er lounging areas, partnered with some crazy partiers, usually the hockey players in Beta which was next door, and made up a garbage can full of purple passions (don't ask). Bars? You're kiddin right?

Like to tell ya about my baby
You know she comes around
She's about five feet four
From her head to the ground

You know she comes around here
At just about midnight
She makes me feel so good, Lord
She makes me feel all right

And her name is G-L-O-R-I
G-L-O-R-I-A (GLORIA)
G-L-O-R-I-A (GLORIA)
I'm gonna shout it all night (GLORIA)
I'm gonna shout it everyday (GLORIA)
Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

Later.

Eckster
05-08-2010, 08:10 AM
This from ESPN.com
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5171662

From this it doesn't sound as grim for Butler as some posters on the board believe.

Eckster
05-08-2010, 08:37 AM
And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

I agree with that and if the game had been called closer, he certainly would have fouled out. Still, watching him in other games, not hard to see how Howard was the Horizon League POY in 08-09. Tough kid. Wonder what he does after college? He got overshadowed by Hayward a bit this past year. In any case, he's gotta be a focal point for them next year.