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JasonEvans
05-01-2010, 02:03 PM
According to this article (http://www.bruinsnation.com/2010/5/1/1453846/hoops-roundup-terrence-jones-wear), the Wear twins are considering transferring from Carolina to UCLA.

Maybe it is true, maybe not. I've got nothing more than that article and a bunch of internet chatter that is as often wrong as it is right.

--Jason "just wanted all of ya'll to be alerted to this possibility" Evans

BattierBattalion
05-01-2010, 02:14 PM
I don't buy it. It's like the Larry Drew II transfer rumors.

Besides, the Wear twins will be very important next year considering that after Zeller's annual injury, Carolina will only have them and Henson for the 4 & 5.

Devilsfan
05-01-2010, 02:21 PM
Whether it's true or not I like it. I often wondered why they would want to play for williams in chapel hill rather than the storied program in beautiful brentwood. Then I saw them play. Coming East where no one knows them well they can be perceived as 5 star athletes until they finally step on the court. Then reality steps in and a 20 loss season for the heels is in sight. Go heels! Win the NIT next year!

airowe
05-01-2010, 02:22 PM
I hope they don't.

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-01-2010, 02:47 PM
Without them, they have no inside game, with them they have little inside game.

COYS
05-01-2010, 02:48 PM
With out them, they have no inside game, with them they have little inside game.

With them, they also have fewer scholarships to use on better players. I don't care if they stay.

BD80
05-01-2010, 02:56 PM
Without them, they have no inside game, with them they have little inside game.

Without them, Barnes must spend more of his one year in college playing the post, rather than "maximizing" his draft position at the "3."

Of course, I am just guessing that ol' roy promised HB that he would not have to play the post, that he would be playing on the perimeter.

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 02:57 PM
With them, they also have fewer scholarships to use on better players. I don't care if they stay.

Without them, they have at least one more scholarship offer available for Austin Rivers.

roywhite
05-01-2010, 03:05 PM
Without them, they have at least one more scholarship offer available for Austin Rivers.

Wears going will not affect where Austin goes.

Duvall
05-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Without them, Barnes must spend more of his one year in college playing the post, rather than "maximizing" his draft position at the "3."

Of course, I am just guessing that ol' roy promised HB that he would not have to play the post, that he would be playing on the perimeter.

Of course, he promised the same thing to Henson, who now might be playing power forward, with Barnes his only backup.

I don't see this happening though. The Wears got plenty of playing time last year when healthy (maybe too much), and look to get even more next year with Davis and Thompson gone. Still, it wouldn't be the first time a California player got homesick for the West Coast.

gumbomoop
05-01-2010, 03:10 PM
As this thread refers to plural transfers, I'll go beyond Wears to speculate about Leslie McDonald's future over there.

Maybe he loves Roy, his teammates, and his chosen university, and is in whole hog for 4 - maybe 5? - years. I will be very surprised if LM neither transfers nor redshirts at some point. As I gather, UNC fans expect Bullock to be second only to HB in reviving their dream. I assume Graves and Strickland are ahead of LM on the depth chart. He seems such a good shooter, but will he stay there playing 10-12 mpg next year, and no guarantee of ever playing a major role? He can play, but at UNC, much, ever?

Wheat? kong123? shoutingncu? anyone? anyone? [Ben Stein, "Ferris Bueller," Smoot-Hawley tariff....]

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 03:21 PM
Wears going will not affect where Austin goes.

As of right now, UNC has no scholarship offer available for Rivers, if the Wears transfer, that gives them more than enough space to comfortably offer Rivers a scholarship. I say comfortably because theres no telling what some of these coaches will do to open up a scholarship for the #2 player in the nation.

Duvall
05-01-2010, 03:25 PM
As of right now, UNC has no scholarship offer available for Rivers, if the Wears transfer, that gives them more than enough space to comfortably offer Rivers a scholarship. I say comfortably because theres no telling what some of these coaches will do to open up a scholarship for the #2 player in the nation.

Well, maybe. They would also have a roster with two post players for 2011 and three for 2012, and six shooting guards in 2012 when Rivers would arrive. Sure, some of those guards stink, but it still wouldn't make sense.

If the Wears left, UNC would need to use those scholarships on big men.

airowe
05-01-2010, 03:26 PM
As of right now, UNC has no scholarship offer available for Rivers, if the Wears transfer, that gives them more than enough space to comfortably offer Rivers a scholarship. I say comfortably because theres no telling what some of these coaches will do to open up a scholarship for the #2 player in the nation.

roywhite knows what he's talking about. The Wears leaving or staying do not affect where Austin Rivers goes to college.

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 03:28 PM
roywhite knows what he's talking about. The Wears leaving or staying do not affect where Austin Rivers goes to college.

There's no doubt that RoyWhite knows what he is talking about.

I am just wondering, how am I wrong. I am going strictly off of facts...can you enlighten me? lol

gumbomoop
05-01-2010, 03:33 PM
There's no doubt that RoyWhite knows what he is talking about.

I am just wondering, how am I wrong. I am going strictly off of facts...can you enlighten me? lol

I'm guessing that roywhite and airowe believe that no matter how many schollies UNC does or does not have, AR will not attend UNC. They believe, I believe [in both senses], that AR will matriculate elsewhere.

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 03:37 PM
I'm guessing that roywhite and airowe believe that no matter how many schollies UNC does or does not have, AR will not attend UNC. They believe, I believe [in both senses], that AR will matriculate elsewhere.

Oh, well I don't believe Rivers is going to UNC either but it's just nice to have some assurance that there's no possible way Rivers can go there.

airowe
05-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Regardless of how it affects Austin, it is my opinion that I would rather have David and Travis Wear be on Carolina's basketball team than some of the other bigs out there in '11 and '12. I don't see them as much of a threat in the future.

ScreechTDX1847
05-01-2010, 04:13 PM
I don't know how much UNC basketball you guys watched this year but the Wears were hardly in post at all. Most of their points came off jump shots.

airowe
05-01-2010, 04:16 PM
I don't know how much UNC basketball you guys watched this year but the Wears were hardly in post at all. Most of their points came off jump shots.

How do you define a basketball player's position?

Duvall
05-01-2010, 04:21 PM
I don't know how much UNC basketball you guys watched this year but the Wears were hardly in post at all. Most of their points came off jump shots.

Given their offensive limitations, that's not saying much.

Last year's UNC team was more stocked with post players than next year's team will be, or the year after. The Wears will play in the post because the Heels won't have too many other options.

roywhite
05-01-2010, 04:25 PM
Given their offensive limitations, that's not saying much.

Last year's UNC team was more stocked with post players than next year's team will be, or the year after. The Wears will play in the post because the Heels won't have too many other options.

The Heels would be very thin in the post, quite literally when you're talking about Zeller and Henson.

budwom
05-01-2010, 04:30 PM
Regardless of how it affects Austin, it is my opinion that I would rather have David and Travis Wear be on Carolina's basketball team than some of the other bigs out there in '11 and '12. I don't see them as much of a threat in the future.

I wholeheartedly agree. I hope they continue to occupy roster spots for years to come.

Duvall
05-01-2010, 04:32 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I hope they continue to occupy roster spots for years to come.

I can't believe you guys are talking this way about the most fundamentally sound big men to ever matriculate at UNC.

JohnGalt
05-01-2010, 04:33 PM
i can't believe you guys are talking this way about the most fundamentally sound big men to ever matriculate at unc.

and they're mcdonald's all-americans for crying out loud!

Cockabeau
05-01-2010, 04:55 PM
What is weird about Leslie Mcdonald is that he kind of sealed his own fate.

He recruited HB to come to UNC with Reggie Bullock already committed...
Imo, not to bright of a kid. He turned down atleast 3 years of good PT at Duke to sit on the bench and possibly transfer for UNC

miramar
05-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Leaving or staying won't solve their basic problem: the Wears may have been Mickey D's, but the so-called experts didn't rank them very high (they were 58/59 on Rivals and 55/56 on Scout). Even with the kind of team Carolina had this year, they only played about 10 minutes each, with Travis at 3.5 points and 2.2 rebounds and David at 2.9 and 1.7, so the experts had a point.

More importantly for us, the Wears may have done Duke a favor since ole Roy doesn't have any big men coming in next year, presumably because he expected a lot from Henson (who will be gone next year if history repeats itself) and the Wares.

Ironically, a lot of people expected huge things from UNC's freshman class, yet the "Big 5" only scored about 21 PPG as a group, or 12 points less than Wall and Cousins at Kentucky.

Worse yet, a lot of people seemed to think that this group of recruits was final proof that ole Roy had overtaken Coach K as a recruiter and coach. What a difference a season makes.

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 05:00 PM
What is weird about Leslie Mcdonald is that he kind of sealed his own fate.

He recruited HB to come to UNC with Reggie Bullock already committed...
Imo, not to bright of a kid. He turned down atleast 3 years of good PT at Duke to sit on the bench and possibly transfer for UNC

Not too sure how much PT he wouldve gotten at Duke either.

ncexnyc
05-01-2010, 05:05 PM
I was under the impression that Justin Watts was more likely to move on than McDonald.

As for the Wear twins, I find it amazing how people can downplay what they offer to the heels after just one season. Exactly what did Lance and Brian bring to the table their Freshman year? It seems way to often that if a kid doesn't light it up their 1st year they are ruled a bust.

DukeSean
05-01-2010, 05:07 PM
Well, honestly all you need to know about the Wears' "game" can be summed in this picture:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/varsitytimesinsider/images/2008/01/04/wear.jpg
intimidating aren't they?

MisterRoddy
05-01-2010, 05:13 PM
I was under the impression that Justin Watts was more likely to move on than McDonald.

As for the Wear twins, I find it amazing how people can downplay what they offer to the heels after just one season. Exactly what did Lance and Brian bring to the table their Freshman year? It seems way to often that if a kid doesn't light it up their 1st year they are ruled a bust.

Nobody called these 2 kids a bust. We just have to look at these two for what they are...Role players that probably won't ever put up big numbers but could be solid their jr and sr years as role players. Pretty much similar to Lance and Zoubek. We would just rather them taking up roster spots for the next 4 years rather than a couple of 5* bigs that UNC would undoubtedly target in the near future.

SupaDave
05-01-2010, 05:37 PM
I recall the Wears BOTH shooting a few three pointers last year. One of them is definitely better than the other but they both bring hustle to the court. A year of strength training and learning some new teammates with bigger roles and we could see some very productive games out of the Wear twins.

But airowe is right in the sense that neither one of them have "superstar" written all over them. I seriously doubt they've reached their ceiling but I'd much rather UNC keep those roster spots full.

airowe
05-01-2010, 05:42 PM
Remember too that one of them has a torn labrum that will require surgery this Summer (maybe it already has been done, I don't really know.)

There was recently some talk that the recovery would at least push into the late Summer, possibly early Fall, with some murmurs of the injury being career-threatening.

The other one battled injuries off and on as well last year...

Olympic Fan
05-01-2010, 05:57 PM
I recall the Wears BOTH shooting a few three pointers last year.

Well, your are correct -- they both shot "a few" 3-pointers last season.

Travis took 104 shots in 330 minutes of playing time -- six of them were 3-pointers (he hit two).

David took 71 shots in 280 minutes of playing time -- 16 of them were 3s ... and he hit 8.

It's true that UNC currently has 13 scholarships committed for the 2011-12 season: Zeller, Drew and Watts will be seniors that year; Henson, Strickland, McDonald, T. Wear and D. Wear will be juniors; Barnes, Bullock and Marshall will be sophomores; McAdoo and Hairston will be freshmen.

But, realistically, several of those guys won't be there -- decent chance Barnes is one-and-done and that Henson goes pro after next year. Very likely they will have a transfer or two -- Watts and McDonald are candidates, along with the Wears. I doubt all four of them leaves, but at least one and maybe two will (especially by the end of next year).

My point is, there may be other reasons UNC doesn't land Rivers (or Cook), but I don't think the scholarship limit will be a problem for them.

The transfer stuff is interesting. All the hoopla about Larry Drew leaving was not made-up stuff. He seriously considered it. Roy Williams was ready to pull the trigger on an offer from Ray McCallum (he would have gotten him too) so he would have another PG on the roster. That deal only fell through at the last minute when Drew decided to return.

Question of the day: Would you rather see junior Larry Drew or freshman Ray McCallum on the UNC roster next season?

BTW -- transfers rarely announce anything until after their exams are over and they head back home. Too tough to announce you're leaving then to face your friends and teammates for the days, weeks before the end of the semester. It happens occassionly, but usually later in May or June (I know Elliot Williams bailed after classes were over)

Travi_K
05-01-2010, 09:12 PM
June 24 is when the announcement came out to the public that Elliot was transferring. I still remember because it was announced on my birthday. That one kind of hurt. However, a National Title takes away all pain!!

diveonthefloor
05-01-2010, 09:37 PM
It happens occassionly, but usually later in May or June (I know Elliot Williams bailed after classes were over)

I know you didn't probably mean it in that way, but "bailing" is a tough way to discuss Elliot's departure.

The kid's mom had been diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. He and his mom are very close. He made a life-altering very hard decision to try to spend as much time with his mom as possible. U of Memphis granted him a waiver of their rule that players live in on-campus dorms. Elliot has been living at home with his folks so he can help during her illness.
He's declared for the draft to help with the bills. He and his agent are trying like heck to figure out how to get Memphis to accquire his draft rights....otherwise the family will move with him when he goes.

Bailing is just not the right descriptor.

Newton_14
05-01-2010, 10:47 PM
I know you didn't probably mean it in that way, but "bailing" is a tough way to discuss Elliot's departure.

The kid's mom had been diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer. He and his mom are very close. He made a life-altering very hard decision to try to spend as much time with his mom as possible. U of Memphis granted him a waiver of their rule that players live in on-campus dorms. Elliot has been living at home with his folks so he can help during her illness.
He's declared for the draft to help with the bills. He and his agent are trying like heck to figure out how to get Memphis to accquire his draft rights....otherwise the family will move with him when he goes.

Bailing is just not the right descriptor.

Hey, thanks for this post. This is the first time that I have seen this level of detail in the Eliot transfer story. I agree "bailed" is not a good word for that situation but I doubt Olympic meant anything negative there.

I wish Eliot well and really hope they find a way to get him to the Grizzlies.

Big Pappa
05-01-2010, 11:02 PM
Of course, he promised the same thing to Henson, who now might be playing power forward, with Barnes his only backup.

I don't see this happening though. The Wears got plenty of playing time last year when healthy (maybe too much), and look to get even more next year with Davis and Thompson gone. Still, it wouldn't be the first time a California player got homesick for the West Coast.

I'm not exactly sure what this means but HB will be backing up no one.

Duvall
05-01-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm not exactly sure what this means but HB will be backing up no one.

I was imagining Barnes playing the 3 when Henson was in the game, and moving to the 4 when Henson was out.

It's almost certainly moot, because I don't see the Wears transferring.

Big Pappa
05-01-2010, 11:12 PM
I was imagining Barnes playing the 3 when Henson was in the game, and moving to the 4 when Henson was out.

It's almost certainly moot, because I don't see the Wears transferring.

Ok just making sure. IMHO I think the ACC POY possibly even the NPOY will come to HB and Kyle.

UrinalCake
05-01-2010, 11:12 PM
I skimmed the article referenced by the OP and didn't see any mention of REASONS the Wears would have for transferring. Several people seem to assume that playing time is the issue, as it often is, but there could be many other reasons (assuming the rumor is true to begin with)

camion
05-01-2010, 11:20 PM
I believe he thinks HB will move from the 3 and take over the 4 duties when Henson comes out for a rest during a game, if the Wears leave.

Jderf
05-01-2010, 11:23 PM
I skimmed the article referenced by the OP and didn't see any mention of REASONS the Wears would have for transferring. Several people seem to assume that playing time is the issue, as it often is, but there could be many other reasons (assuming the rumor is true to begin with)

If the problem was the lack of playing time last season, it seems an odd time to transfer now that their playing time is likely to be on the rise in light of certain departures.

Kedsy
05-01-2010, 11:36 PM
As for the Wear twins, I find it amazing how people can downplay what they offer to the heels after just one season. Exactly what did Lance and Brian bring to the table their Freshman year? It seems way to often that if a kid doesn't light it up their 1st year they are ruled a bust.

While I agree it's hard to judge a player based on his freshman year, Lance started 18 games and played 15 minutes a game his freshman year. That's a significantly greater contribution than Wears, who started 3 games and played 16 minutes per game combined.*



* my minutes per game calculations count DNPs as zero (0) minutes.

camion
05-01-2010, 11:49 PM
While I agree it's hard to judge a player based on his freshman year, Lance started 18 games and played 15 minutes a game his freshman year. That's a significantly greater contribution than Wears, who started 3 games and played 16 minutes per game combined.*

* my minutes per game calculations count DNPs as zero (0) minutes.

You must remember that Lance started as a freshman because there was no real alternative. This past year's UNC team was much more talented than that Duke team so the Wears were subs.

Now you'll probably counter that this year's UNC team had a worse record than that Duke team. My response, "That's true. Duke has a coach." :)

Indoor66
05-02-2010, 08:25 AM
Ok just making sure. IMHO I think the ACC POY possibly even the NPOY will come to HB and Kyle.

That is a rather huge projection when talking about a freshman vs a senior.

BattierBattalion
05-02-2010, 09:32 AM
Now you'll probably counter that this year's UNC team had a worse record than that Duke team. My response, "That's true. Duke has a coach." :)

I laughed out loud at this. Heck this year's UNC team might be more talented than this year's Duke team.

To stay on topic, all of these rumors seem completely unsubstantiated. The Wear twins are in all likelihood staying.

oldnavy
05-02-2010, 09:44 AM
Like several of you have said. I kind of liked this past years team and wish they all could stay!

My tarheel friend who I love to debate, keeps talking about how good the Wear boys are going to be. I just don't see it. We both are a little :p biased about our teams, but neither David or Travis have shown me anything other than solid, not great big men, who play pretty poor defense and make a lot of mistakes on offense with shot selection. That can all be improved, but neither of them appears to be very worrisome to me. Put me in the camp that the only true pleasure I would get if they did transfer would be to toss some of that nonsense I hear from UNC fans about how K is runs players off because he is a vile and horrible man only in it for himself and not the players.

BTW, anyone remember the last time you heard a tarheel fan complain about how horrible it was that K cussed? :rolleyes:

roywhite
05-02-2010, 09:58 AM
I believe he thinks HB will move from the 3 and take over the 4 duties when Henson comes out for a rest during a game, if the Wears leave.

That would be an interesting development. I doubt HB thought he would be playing inside very much.

MisterRoddy
05-02-2010, 10:05 AM
If you guys remember, HB wanted to play the 2-guard in college and that guy has a plan, so I doubt that he will be playing the 4.

oldnavy
05-02-2010, 10:11 AM
If you guys remember, HB wanted to play the 2-guard in college and that guy has a plan, so I doubt that he will be playing the 4.

I just hope that he "gets it" by the 54th practice, so Ol Roy won't have to call him out in the press....

SupaDave
05-02-2010, 12:31 PM
That is a rather huge projection when talking about a freshman vs a senior.

And for a freshman vs. the rest of the nation that has mucho talent returning at schools like MSU, Butler and Baylor.

He's no Kevin Durant - let's get that straight first. Bigger, faster, stronger players are coming to eat his lunch.

SupaDave
05-02-2010, 12:37 PM
Oh yeah - and more experienced. And just as talented. I look forward to seeing him and CJ Leslie go at it.

chrisheery
05-02-2010, 12:42 PM
I would be shocked if Harrison Barnes won NPOY. He's good, but he's not that good. I also don't think you can take Kyle against the rest of the field and feel great about it. NPOY is just too hard to predict.

Duvall
05-02-2010, 12:45 PM
And for a freshman vs. the rest of the nation that has mucho talent returning at schools like MSU, Butler and Baylor.

Unless Hayward changes his mind in the next five days or so, Butler won't have anyone better than Barnes, even as a freshman. And if Hayward does change his mind, they still may not have anyone better. And it's hard to imagine Lucas having a much better year than he did last year, when he wasn't a serious candidate for NPOY. Lacedarius Dunn? Maybe, but he'll have a lot less help this year.

You have to keep in mind the media's deep and abiding love for all things UNC. If Barnes puts up good numbers for a UNC team that overcomes adversity by returning to the top 25 with a paltry nine HS All-Americans, he'll get consideration for NPOY.


He's no Kevin Durant - let's get that straight first. Bigger, faster, stronger players are coming to eat his lunch.

Like who? There's Singler, and Chris Singleton, and who else in the league?

devildeac
05-02-2010, 01:57 PM
Like several of you have said. I kind of liked this past years team and wish they all could stay!

My tarheel friend who I love to debate, keeps talking about how good the Wear boys are going to be. I just don't see it. We both are a little :p biased about our teams, but neither David or Travis have shown me anything other than solid, not great big men, who play pretty poor defense and make a lot of mistakes on offense with shot selection. That can all be improved, but neither of them appears to be very worrisome to me. Put me in the camp that the only true pleasure I would get if they did transfer would be to toss some of that nonsense I hear from UNC fans about how K is runs players off because he is a vile and horrible man only in it for himself and not the players.


BTW, anyone remember the last time you heard a tarheel fan complain about how horrible it was that K cussed? :rolleyes:

It's been quite a few freakin'/frakken/frickin' months, IIRC.:D

devildeac
05-02-2010, 01:58 PM
That would be an interesting development. I doubt HB thought he would be playing inside very much.

That's what the tarheel faithful/players/coaches apparently told him would happen if he went to Duke:rolleyes:.

wilko
05-02-2010, 05:02 PM
As long as the UNC players wake up in nightsweats from the relentless Duke onslaught, have low self esteem/confidence issues and deep regrets about their college choice... I dont care wether they transfer or not.

Just that they suffer. ;-)

SupaDave
05-02-2010, 06:11 PM
Unless Hayward changes his mind in the next five days or so, Butler won't have anyone better than Barnes, even as a freshman. And if Hayward does change his mind, they still may not have anyone better. And it's hard to imagine Lucas having a much better year than he did last year, when he wasn't a serious candidate for NPOY. Lacedarius Dunn? Maybe, but he'll have a lot less help this year.

You have to keep in mind the media's deep and abiding love for all things UNC. If Barnes puts up good numbers for a UNC team that overcomes adversity by returning to the top 25 with a paltry nine HS All-Americans, he'll get consideration for NPOY.



Like who? There's Singler, and Chris Singleton, and who else in the league?

You are correct in the fact that the media will hype the guy up unbelievably.

And by mentioning those teams I'm talking experienced tourney teams that will hardly be intimidated by a hot shot freshmen.

In the league who will stop him? Oh I'm sure plenty will step up. On our team alone I feel we have at least FOUR people who can step up and shut him down depending on the situation and match-up, b/c we will be switching on him regardless.

I hope for UNC's sake that they come together as a team b/c running iso plays for Barnes will not work for long.

ForkFondler
05-02-2010, 09:37 PM
I hope for UNC's sake....

FTLOG, why would you do THAT????

amat1129
05-02-2010, 09:45 PM
i hope the wears don't transfer, i really look forward to them underachieving the next few years

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-02-2010, 09:48 PM
i hope the wears don't transfer, i really look forward to them underachieving the next few years I hope they witness the Plummee dunking service a lot these next couple of years.

left_hook_lacey
05-03-2010, 09:27 AM
While I agree it's hard to judge a player based on his freshman year, Lance started 18 games and played 15 minutes a game his freshman year. That's a significantly greater contribution than Wears, who started 3 games and played 16 minutes per game combined.*



* my minutes per game calculations count DNPs as zero (0) minutes.

You also have to consider though, Coach K didn't have a whole lot of options in Lance's freshman year as far as size on the inside. It was Lance, McRoberts, and Zoubek as far a truly "big" guy options. And I think Zoub was down a big part of that year with injury? Can't remember for sure.

johnb
05-03-2010, 09:34 AM
Ok just making sure. IMHO I think the ACC POY possibly even the NPOY will come to HB and Kyle.

For HB to win NPOY, UNC would probably have to win 30 games. I'd give them both of those accomplishments as long as we end the year with a one-point victory. Seems fair.

left_hook_lacey
05-03-2010, 09:37 AM
You are correct in the fact that the media will hype the guy up unbelievably.

And by mentioning those teams I'm talking experienced tourney teams that will hardly be intimidated by a hot shot freshmen.

In the league who will stop him? Oh I'm sure plenty will step up. On our team alone I feel we have at least FOUR people who can step up and shut him down depending on the situation and match-up, b/c we will be switching on him regardless.

I hope for UNC's sake that they come together as a team b/c running iso plays for Barnes will not work for long.

I feel like the amount of success UNC has a team will have a direct impact on how Harrison Barnes' season is viewed as an individual player. He is going to be a media-dariling from the start, but if UNC doesn't put together more ACC wins than it did last year, Barnes will be just another player by season's end. However, if he puts up player-of-the-year type numbers, and UNC is in the runnning for the ACC, Barnes will be seen as the savior and his name will be mentioned for every award know to college basketball.

PADukeMom
05-03-2010, 09:40 AM
For HB to win NPOY, UNC would probably have to win 30 games. I'd give them both of those accomplishments as long as we end the year with a one-point victory. Seems fair.

I think 2 of our guys are going to have something to say to HB about obtaining that title.

Lord Ash
05-03-2010, 09:42 AM
I do think Barnes will be in contention... as long as he puts up low 20s in points on average (which I don't think is too crazy, considering how few genuine offensive options they have and how good he is, and accounting for the early season cupcakes) and UNC improves greatly (impossible NOT to do) he should be discussed. It is a shame, though... put Nolan or Kyle on that UNC team and they would have a FANTASTIC chance of winning individual awards.

Kedsy
05-03-2010, 09:45 AM
As for the Wear twins, I find it amazing how people can downplay what they offer to the heels after just one season. Exactly what did Lance and Brian bring to the table their Freshman year? It seems way to often that if a kid doesn't light it up their 1st year they are ruled a bust.


While I agree it's hard to judge a player based on his freshman year, Lance started 18 games and played 15 minutes a game his freshman year. That's a significantly greater contribution than Wears, who started 3 games and played 16 minutes per game combined.


You also have to consider though, Coach K didn't have a whole lot of options in Lance's freshman year as far as size on the inside. It was Lance, McRoberts, and Zoubek as far a truly "big" guy options. And I think Zoub was down a big part of that year with injury? Can't remember for sure.

The original poster said we shouldn't judge the Wears based on their freshman year performance, saying Lance and Brian didn't contribute so much their freshman year and they turned out OK. I agreed with him that you can't judge a player on his freshman year performance, but disagreed that Lance brought little to the table his freshman year.

So whether the Wears would have contributed as much as Lance if they'd had favorable circumstances is not really relevant to my point, which was that using Lance in that context was a poor example.

Kedsy
05-03-2010, 09:56 AM
I do think Barnes will be in contention... as long as he puts up low 20s in points on average (which I don't think is too crazy, considering how few genuine offensive options they have and how good he is, and accounting for the early season cupcakes) and UNC improves greatly (impossible NOT to do) he should be discussed.

In 2005-06, UNC had so few offensive options that their #2 and #3 scorers were Reyshawn Terry and David Noel, but freshman Tyler Hansbrough only scored 18.9 ppg, and was not anywhere close to the NPOY discussion. It would be surprising on next year's UNC team if Barnes would beat Hansbrough's individual contributions.

Put another way, UNC doesn't figure to play at a super-fast pace with the PGs they'll have, and the Heels don't figure to be a top flight defensive team either, so if Barnes dominates the shots enough to score 20+ ppg, the rest of their team will be so pathetic offensively that it's hard to imagine the team winning very many games.

Having said all that, if he scores 16 to 18 ppg and UNC does win a lot of games then he may be in the discussion. I'd be shocked if he won, but he might be in the discussion.

SupaDave
05-03-2010, 10:15 AM
I do think Barnes will be in contention... as long as he puts up low 20s in points on average (which I don't think is too crazy, considering how few genuine offensive options they have and how good he is, and accounting for the early season cupcakes) and UNC improves greatly (impossible NOT to do) he should be discussed. It is a shame, though... put Nolan or Kyle on that UNC team and they would have a FANTASTIC chance of winning individual awards.

I understand everyone being high on Barnes - but averaging 20 points a game??!?!??!?! LMAO! It's not gonna happen. Ask Derrick Favors (11.2ppg). Ask Sylven Landesberg (17.8ppg).

Folks like Tyler Hansborough and Toney Douglas have done it but they were mature players by the time they accomplished 20ppg.

This year? Malcolm Delaney and Greivis Vasquez. A Jr and a Sr. Durand Scott is the only other frosh in the top 20 and he's tied for last at 11.2 ppg.

UNC's potential transfers could prove to be addition by subtraction b/c if you guys expect Barnes to see 20ppg he's gonna need to take a lot of shots and as evidenced by those listed above - he would have to DOMINATE the ball.

To dominate the ball for Barnes would mean that a lot of Mickey D's aren't touching the ball.

Considering that a big chunk of the league's top scorers are leaving I expect Barnes to make the top 20 but just keep in mind that they had no one this year.

ncexnyc
05-03-2010, 12:24 PM
The original poster said we shouldn't judge the Wears based on their freshman year performance, saying Lance and Brian didn't contribute so much their freshman year and they turned out OK. I agreed with him that you can't judge a player on his freshman year performance, but disagreed that Lance brought little to the table his freshman year.

So whether the Wears would have contributed as much as Lance if they'd had favorable circumstances is not really relevant to my point, which was that using Lance in that context was a poor example.

So basically Lance was a warm body that K was forced to play, because there weren't any viable alternatives. His numbers for his freshman year are 4.0 PPG and 2.5 RPG. Travis Wear posted 3.5 PPG and 2.2 RPG and David posted 2.9 PPG and 1.7 RPG, fairly close numbers to those put up by Lance his first year.

If bringing something to the table means he was the 5th player on the court, then yes you're absolutely right, but somehow I get the feeling you're trying to say he was more than that.

I'm not looking to get into a Lance vs the Wears debate here. What I'm talking about and what really bothers me is how some folks are so quick to write kids off, because they aren't making a huge impact their first year.

A number of people on this board have gone out of their way to pat our team on the back for having won the Championship "the right way", by having players stick around for four years. Part of the process involves players improving over that time and getting better and better each year as we saw with Brian, Jon, and Lance. If the Wears can get better each year and become solid contributors to the heels by their senior year, I'm sure they will have the talent to be a lot better than they were last year.

Kedsy
05-03-2010, 12:32 PM
I'm not looking to get into a Lance vs the Wears debate here. What I'm talking about and what really bothers me is how some folks are so quick to write kids off, because they aren't making a huge impact their first year.

And I've said twice that I agree with you on your main point. What really bothers me is people being quick to write off solid contributors based on scoring averages. If that's not what you intended when you seemed to dismiss Lance as a "warm body," then I apologize. Otherwise I feel compelled to say Lance was a much more significant contributor in 2006-07 than the Wears were in 2009-10.

wilko
05-03-2010, 12:37 PM
If the Wears can get better each year and become solid contributors to the heels by their senior year, I'm sure they will have the talent to be a lot better than they were last year.

Pardon me while I hope for the opposite.

Not that they are bad guys... they are prolly more committed to their church, organ donors, assist the elderly and do all sorts of wonderful deeds that make them much better human beings than me.

However, I reserve the right to judge them for their poor wardrobe choice and will do so as long as they continue to a juvenile pastel.

No hard feelings. JJ gets bashed for less. So geese and ganders and all that.

ncexnyc
05-03-2010, 01:16 PM
I realize refering to Lance as a warm body is cold, but let's be honest it's the truth. Do you honestly believe he would have played as much as he did his first year if the other big men who left the program had stayed?

So was his contribution to Duke as a Freshman more significant than those of the Wears? Absolutely you're right on that account, but it was due more to necessity than ability.

If you disagree with me fine, but a quick review of threads dealing with Lance and his impact on the team his first three years paints a far different picture than the one we see now, with Lance the graduating Senior.

Lord Ash
05-03-2010, 01:20 PM
I may indeed be over-estimating Harrison's pt total average (and I knew it was high when I said it) but again, I do think he will be option 1, 2, and 3 on that team, and I think he is an awful good player. I may be wrong, of course:)

kong123
05-03-2010, 01:50 PM
HB did average over 20 pts per game in all of the all-star games, plus he was the MVP of each game, so if there is a player than can average over 20 pts per game as a freshman, then he is as likely as any.

My guess is he will average 15 to 20 points in conference and probably more before conference play begins.

As far as the Weirs go, they need to learn how to play and when they do, they will be solid contributors. Both Weirs averaged 10 minutes each, with Travis averaging 3.5 pt/gm and 2.2 reb/gm. David averaged 2.9 pt/gm and 1.7 reb/gm. Combined, they play 20 minutes and their stats are comparable to LT's. LT is a senior and those kids are freshman playing on a team that had a horrible year. I would say that their upside is much better than LT's upside is or was. Now, LT did many things on defense that do not show up on the stat sheet and who knows whether or not the Weirs will become a defensive force in their 4 years. They will be much better on the offensive end.

airowe
05-03-2010, 01:59 PM
HB did average over 20 pts per game in all of the all-star games, plus he was the MVP of each game, so if there is a player than can average over 20 pts per game as a freshman, then he is as likely as any.


There will be more defense played in unc's season opener than there was in any of those All-Star games.

Who's the last SF Freshman to average 15-20 ppg under roy?

kong123
05-03-2010, 02:29 PM
Because I am not a KU fan, I cannot comment on his players there, but I would guess Pierce. As far as UNC players go, Hansbrough is the only player in the Williams era that has averaged 15+ pts his freshman year. I understand that he was a PF and not a SF, but he was our big recruit that year. This year, our big recruit is HB and he is a real scorer. We haven't had a real scorer in that sort of position since Rashaad McCants was here. Both Ellington and Lawson could get their own shot, but HB's size and skill set will present problems for many teams. I imagine he will play very much the same game that KS plays, except HB is a more explosive athlete. Like I said, I think he will average 15 pts/game and we will need double digits from the player that wins out at the 2 spot as well. I think Reggie Bullock is capable of providing that. In the end, its a complete toss up after last year. Will they contribute or won't they, that is the question.

moonpie23
05-03-2010, 02:35 PM
I would say that their upside is much better than LT's upside is or was.

way to sell Lance short.......you be sure and ring us up when EITHER of the twins is a player in the title game that, without their play, there IS not a title game, or the title....

Duvall
05-03-2010, 02:39 PM
way to sell Lance short.......you be sure and ring us up when EITHER of the twins is a player in the title game that, without their play, there IS not a title game, or the title....

I enjoy mocking the Wears as much as the next guy, but they really are capable of becoming solid contributors by their senior year. They could certainly win a title as role players on a team that surrounds them with elite talent at the other spots.

airowe
05-03-2010, 02:43 PM
Because I am not a KU fan, I cannot comment on his players there, but I would guess Pierce. As far as UNC players go, Hansbrough is the only player in the Williams era that has averaged 15+ pts his freshman year. I understand that he was a PF and not a SF, but he was our big recruit that year. This year, our big recruit is HB and he is a real scorer. We haven't had a real scorer in that sort of position since Rashaad McCants was here. Both Ellington and Lawson could get their own shot, but HB's size and skill set will present problems for many teams. I imagine he will play very much the same game that KS plays, except HB is a more explosive athlete. Like I said, I think he will average 15 pts/game and we will need double digits from the player that wins out at the 2 spot as well. I think Reggie Bullock is capable of providing that. In the end, its a complete toss up after last year. Will they contribute or won't they, that is the question.

The reason I asked about SFs is because roy's system does not and hasn't ever featured them. He has shown little to no flexibility in changing the way his system is run, so I'd venture to say that Hansbrough's usage as a Freshman will be much, much greater than Barnes' will be. I wouldn't be surprised to see Barnes average in double digits, but to act like he'll have no problem scoring 15-20 and then more against ACC competition is setting him up failure IMO.

Also, can you show me how Barnes is a more explosive athlete than Kyle Singler? I was wondering what your metric was on that or if it was just an opinion...

kong123
05-03-2010, 02:50 PM
way to sell Lance short.......you be sure and ring us up when EITHER of the twins is a player in the title game that, without their play, there IS not a title game, or the title....

you know just as well as I do that I wasn't bashing LT. What I said is... according to the stats, LT was not a big contributor, but because of his defense he was a significant contributor. I then said that I hoped the Weirs could be equally as effective as LT was on the defensive end. Because of the Weir's offensive ability, they will one day contribute much more on the offensive end which gives them a greater upside.

Don't just read something I write and assume that I am bashing your team!

kong123
05-03-2010, 02:55 PM
Also, can you show me how Barnes is a more explosive athlete than Kyle Singler? I was wondering what your metric was on that or if it was just an opinion...

again, it is my opinion, but watching him in those all-star games and in all of the video released over the year, he looks to be a higher jumper than KS is. I have also seen him do a few spin moves in the lane with great ball control and then make an athletic finish, much like a Kobe, Wade, LB. Now before I get blasted for that, I do not think HB is that caliber of player, but his ability to create and finish in traffic is similar. I would say he will be more like Gerald Henderson than KS in athletic ability but play more of KS's game.

moonpie23
05-03-2010, 03:00 PM
I enjoy mocking the Wears as much as the next guy, but they really are capable of becoming solid contributors by their senior year. They could certainly win a title as role players on a team that surrounds them with elite talent at the other spots.

that's precisely what i'm talking about.......lance did not have ANY elite (lottery picks) on his team and certainly wasn't SURROUNDED by them...

I know a little about "houses of cards".......my world revolves around them.

this "house of cards" that became the 2010 champs was exactly that. .......if you add to, or remove from that house of cards, there's a good possibility it doesn't turn out that way...

you take lance off this team and i'd say there's a good chance it doesn't happen.......let's see if we can say the same about either of the twins...

El_Diablo
05-03-2010, 03:06 PM
Is this the part of the year when fairweirther UNC fans start coming back into the fold? It seems a little early for that...

moonpie23
05-03-2010, 03:06 PM
you know just as well as I do that I wasn't bashing LT. What I said is... according to the stats, LT was not a big contributor, but because of his defense he was a significant contributor. I then said that I hoped the Weirs could be equally as effective as LT was on the defensive end. Because of the Weir's offensive ability, they will one day contribute much more on the offensive end which gives them a greater upside.

Don't just read something I write and assume that I am bashing your team!

i didn't assume you were bashing our team.....you WERE selling lance short by referencing stats, giving a small kudo to his defensive contributions and then saying you thought the twins were going to be better. (or more "upside" as you put it.)


i respectfully disagree.

you can't put a value on lance's contributions without first asking the question "what if those contributions (however you want to describe them") aren't there at all.

all i'm saying is, i don't think either of the twins will be the missing piece of the puzzle for a unc title

kong123
05-03-2010, 03:20 PM
Is this the part of the year when fairweirther UNC fans start coming back into the fold? It seems a little early for that...

far from fairweather my friend, I have been here through the low spots of this season and I will be here through the highs and lows of next years season...

kong123
05-03-2010, 03:26 PM
all i'm saying is, i don't think either of the twins will be the missing piece of the puzzle for a unc title

before Duke won the championship, I didn't think he would be the missing piece of anything. I imagine, while you loved him because he played for your team, you were probably disappointed that he never turned out to be the player he was projected to be. But, you won a championship this year and now his contributions are etched in stone. Guess what, there have been players like him since the beginning of the NCAA's that do the little things to help their team win. You know where they are now? They are playing in Europe or they went professional in something other than a sport. What I simply meant was, one of the Weirs may be able to play in the NBA one day if they improve. Lance is at the end of the college career and he will not be given a chance in the NBA. While I respect his role on the 2010 NCAA Championship team, his role is not what I was talking about.

moonpie23
05-03-2010, 03:34 PM
Lance is at the end of the college career and he will not be given a chance in the NBA.

we shall see.....we shall see......saving this quote along with my "chris duhon will never be on an nba team" nugget...

allenmurray
05-03-2010, 03:39 PM
What I simply meant was, one of the Weirs may be able to play in the NBA one day if they improve.

Or play guitar for the Greatful Dead. ;)

airowe
05-03-2010, 03:40 PM
again, it is my opinion, but watching him in those all-star games and in all of the video released over the year, he looks to be a higher jumper than KS is. I have also seen him do a few spin moves in the lane with great ball control and then make an athletic finish, much like a Kobe, Wade, LB. Now before I get blasted for that, I do not think HB is that caliber of player, but his ability to create and finish in traffic is similar. I would say he will be more like Gerald Henderson than KS in athletic ability but play more of KS's game.

Fair enough, it just sounded like were very sure about it, like you had some sort of evidence to back it up. I've heard that Barnes' strong suit is not his athleticism, but rather his overall skill level and polished game. In fact, I think if you were to rank his strong suits, athleticism would be towards the bottom. I figured you would know more about that than me...

gumbomoop
05-03-2010, 03:40 PM
I may indeed be over-estimating Harrison's pt total average (and I knew it was high when I said it) but again, I do think he will be option 1, 2, and 3 on that team, and I think he is an awful good player. I may be wrong, of course:)

I agree that HB is very likely to lead Heels in ppg. Assuming you were being hyperbolic re HB as "option 1, 2, and 3," but imo Heels have lots of decent options on O beyond HB: Zeller, Drew, Graves, Strickland, Bullock, Henson, McDonald [still think he's a likely transfer sooner or later], with Wears fairly low on O-options-depth-chart.

Heels could have a bunch of guys at 8-12 ppg/each, with HB breaking out of pack to hit 16-18.

airowe
05-03-2010, 03:41 PM
Or play guitar for the Grateful Dead. ;)

Hopefully, not with the short shorts...

kong123
05-03-2010, 03:44 PM
Duhon and Lance Thomas are completely different basketball players.

this is his line from Wikipedia

He left as the only Atlantic Coast Conference player to record 1,200 points, 800 assists, 475 rebounds, 300 steals, and 125 three-point shots.

Chris Duhon almost out-rebounded Thomas!

cbnaylor
05-03-2010, 03:49 PM
again, it is my opinion, but watching him in those all-star games and in all of the video released over the year, he looks to be a higher jumper than KS is. I have also seen him do a few spin moves in the lane with great ball control and then make an athletic finish, much like a Kobe, Wade, LB. Now before I get blasted for that, I do not think HB is that caliber of player, but his ability to create and finish in traffic is similar. I would say he will be more like Gerald Henderson than KS in athletic ability but play more of KS's game.

Well I don't know what games you have been watching, but Harrison doesn't look like G! I've been actually surprised that he can't drive to the lane like Wade or Kobe. Can he.....maybe but I haven't seen what you are talking about. This guy can shoot though and is one heck of a rebounder but I believe you might be climbing a little to high when you say he can drive in the lane like LB, Kobe, or Wade. Just to let you know though.......Duke has somebody that can.........Irving!

roywhite
05-03-2010, 03:49 PM
Or play guitar for the Greatful Dead. ;)

Okay, time to work in one of my favorite stats.

Bill Walton is said to have attended more Grateful Dead concerts (650 or more) than the number of NBA games in which he played (468 regular season + 49 playoff = 517).

Throw it down, big fella!

CDu
05-03-2010, 03:49 PM
The reason I asked about SFs is because roy's system does not and hasn't ever featured them. He has shown little to no flexibility in changing the way his system is run, so I'd venture to say that Hansbrough's usage as a Freshman will be much, much greater than Barnes' will be. I wouldn't be surprised to see Barnes average in double digits, but to act like he'll have no problem scoring 15-20 and then more against ACC competition is setting him up failure IMO.

Also, can you show me how Barnes is a more explosive athlete than Kyle Singler? I was wondering what your metric was on that or if it was just an opinion...

To be fair, I think it's reasonable to expect 15+ ppg from Barnes next year. Given UNC's tempo (which is usually one of the faster tempos in the country - even last year when they didn't have good PG play it was 27th nationally), they'll get plenty of possessions. And he's likely to be the #1 option next year, so he should get his looks. And Roy's system doesn't really de-emphasize any particular position. It emphasizes players who can shoot and play up-tempo. Barnes can do both of those things really well.

Now, one of the posts said 20+ ppg, and I think that's probably unreasonable. I'm not saying he'd average 15-20 with no problem, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least 15 ppg from him next year.

I also don't think Barnes will be a likely candidate for National Player of the Year unless UNC completely rebounds and is among the elite teams again. There'll be enough star players on elite teams that a 15-20 ppg season from Barnes on a top-25 level UNC team wouldn't get it done.

Duvall
05-03-2010, 03:49 PM
I agree that HB is very likely to lead Heels in ppg. Assuming you were being hyperbolic re HB as "option 1, 2, and 3," but imo Heels have lots of decent options on O beyond HB: Zeller, Drew, Graves, Strickland, Bullock, Henson, McDonald [still think he's a likely transfer sooner or later], with Wears fairly low on O-options-depth-chart.


No, and God no. Those two will hardly see the court next year.

El_Diablo
05-03-2010, 03:50 PM
far from fairweather my friend, I have been here through the low spots of this season and I will be here through the highs and lows of next years season...

Then perhaps you would know that it's "Wear" and not "Weir" if you were really following your team as closely as you always had. ;)

MChambers
05-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Because of the Weir's offensive ability, they will one day contribute much more on the offensive end which gives them a greater upside.

I just have to point out that I once knew someone whose last name was "Weir", and one of my co-workers got so frustrated with him that he later said that the "d" was silent.

The UNC players are named "Wear", I think.

CDu
05-03-2010, 03:57 PM
Well I don't know what games you have been watching, but Harrison doesn't look like G! I've been actually surprised that he can't drive to the lane like Wade or Kobe. Can he.....maybe but I haven't seen what you are talking about. This guy can shoot though and is one heck of a rebounder but I believe you might be climbing a little to high when you say he can drive in the lane like LB, Kobe, or Wade. Just to let you know though.......Duke has somebody that can.........Irving!

Based on a sample size of two (and yes, I realize that this is not a reasonable sample size) and based on the scouting reports (none of which gush about his athleticism), I'd agree that the Henderson comparisons aren't at all apt. Barnes didn't look like an explosive athlete in either of the all-star games I saw.

Instead, from what I've seen, he's looked very smooth in transition, with a tremendous shooting touch and a knack for getting rebounds. I haven't seen much to suggest he's great at creating/attacking off the dribble in the two games I saw. That's not to suggest that he doesn't have those attributes. But I wouldn't say it based on what I've seen. And I'm guessing that Kong hasn't been to too many of Barnes's other games in Iowa to have a good idea on this.

gumbomoop
05-03-2010, 04:01 PM
No, and God no. Those two will hardly see the court next year.

Well, having expressed on several occasions my perplexity that rumors about an impending McDonald transfer are not already swirling, I can hardly totally disagree with "God no." Not totally. Still, if LM sticks around and doesn't redshirt [maybe "hardly see the court" refers to that possibility, for either??], he'll play 7-10 mpg. Strickland, I'd think a bit more.

Are you saying now that they don't need Strickland to play backup PG, his true worth[lessness??] will be revealed? Roy's got lots of interchangeable parts on wing. I assume HB [talent extraordinaire] and Graves [experience and 3-bombs] will play a lot, with depth from Bullock, Strickland, and McDonald.

Given Roy's frequent substitutions, absent redshirting for either "No" or "God no," I say they both play some. We'll see. Until then, we'll argue. From a position of enhanced-by-NC-serenity.

kong123
05-03-2010, 04:01 PM
Sorry guys, guess I am a bad fan. I rarely read their name and just associated it with Mike Weir, the golfer.

MChambers
05-03-2010, 04:21 PM
Sorry guys, guess I am a bad fan. I rarely read their name and just associated it with Mike Weir, the golfer.
Count me in the camp that thinks the Wears are decent, but not great, players. Hard to say how they develop. They could turn out to be quite good, and even play in the NBA someday.

Of course, I used to think that Jason Evans might be right when he said Shavlik Randolph's jersey would hang from the rafters some day. ;)

JohnGalt
05-05-2010, 03:35 AM
Count me in the camp that thinks the Wears are decent, but not great, players. Hard to say how they develop. They could turn out to be quite good, and even play in the NBA someday.

Of course, I used to think that Jason Evans might be right when he said Shavlik Randolph's jersey would hang from the rafters some day. ;)

Poor, Shav. He really was the best player on the court in the '04 game against UCONN...before the refs took over the game (both ways). I really was looking forward to seeing him fully fit the following year...

I think the Wears show plenty of promise to develop into very servicable players in the future. The sibling rival tendency and 3 years of development will turn them into solid contributors, although I'm not sure the Carolina faithful will be satisfied with 'solid contributors.'

Either way, the PlumTrees > The Wears...

oldnavy
05-05-2010, 06:50 AM
Poor, Shav. He really was the best player on the court in the '04 game against UCONN...before the refs took over the game (both ways). I really was looking forward to seeing him fully fit the following year...

I think the Wears show plenty of promise to develop into very servicable players in the future. The sibling rival tendency and 3 years of development will turn them into solid contributors, although I'm not sure the Carolina faithful will be satisfied with 'solid contributors.'

Either way, the PlumTrees > The Wears...

I have scanned this post, and I do not remember seeing anyone say that the twins will not be solid contributors. I think they can be at some point. Role players yes, stars doubtful.

Let's not forget one of UNC major issues last year was team scoring. We held them in the 50's both games, and a lot of that had to do with their poor team chemistry, that resulted in poor decision making (shot selection), poor shooting and turnovers. Our our great defense was a major factor, but they struggled in most other games as well. Just because guys like Harrison can put the ball in the basket, doesn't mean that this will fix those problems. Ball pressure on the point and good defensive rotation will be a tough adjustment for the frosh at UNC, it is for almost every frosh everywhere. I would temper my expectations until I see how this team plays together. Some of you may remember me coming down hard on UNC early last year after UNC wins over some poor competition. I could see in those games that they did not seem to click like teams of the past. How will HB and RB and KM affect that? Who knows? Remember, they still have Roy... and he did not do such a great job molding last years team into a cohesive unit...

wilson
05-05-2010, 11:19 AM
Bill Walton is said to have attended more Grateful Dead concerts (650 or more)...I'm pretty sure he lost count.;)

CameronBornAndBred
05-05-2010, 11:43 AM
I'm pretty sure he lost count.;)
Ha! I bet he has a recording of every show he went to. (Plus all of the ones he missed).
Back on topic, I'm really surprised that the heels will be back relatively intact next year. I doubt the Wears go .

Nugget
05-05-2010, 01:06 PM
I think the Wears will end up being very serviceable ACC-level players. Despite all of Carolina's injury troubles last year that severely hampered their development of a coherent rotation (and what we now know to be a highly disfunctional locker room), they looked at least as ready to play as freshmen as did Ryan Kelly or Lance Thomas.

And they will no doubt play significant minutes this year (and probably next year too) as the primary backups at the 4 and 5 for Zeller and Henson, and no other bigs coming in until McAdoo two seasons from now. Transferring would be silly for them.

Strickland also impressed me a great deal last year -- I think he has potential to be very good and play a lot, irrespective of Marshall and Bullock coming in.

McDonald seems the most likely candidate to get lost in the shuffle. It really would make sense for him to transfer.

roywhite
05-05-2010, 01:14 PM
I think the Wears will end up being very serviceable ACC-level players. Despite all of Carolina's injury troubles last year that severely hampered their development of a coherent rotation (and what we now know to be a highly disfunctional locker room), they looked at least as ready to play as freshmen as did Ryan Kelly or Lance Thomas.

And they will no doubt play significant minutes this year (and probably next year too) as the primary backups at the 4 and 5 for Zeller and Henson, and no other bigs coming in until McAdoo two seasons from now. Transferring would be silly for them.

Strickland also impressed me a great deal last year -- I think he has potential to be very good and play a lot, irrespective of Marshall and Bullock coming in.

McDonald seems the most likely candidate to get lost in the shuffle. It really would make sense for him to transfer.

Don't mind making fun of the Where? twins, but they're not bad players and could certainly improve as they go along.

Agree with you about McDonald being down the list, but I really wonder about Strickland. What's his position? Do they try to make a PG out of him? Wouldn't he be behind both Drew 2 and Marshall? If he's more of a shooting guard, he's got to compete with Graves, Bullock and Barnes (to some extent at this position) for playing time. Strickland certainly has speed and showed some flashes last year, but was mistake-prone and didn't shoot consistently.

Devilsfan
05-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Davis was the only real talent that the rest of the ACC needed to be aware of. I hope nobody transfers as they are all average at best and they made their bed now I want them to enjoy playing under "unc bsketball is all about me" roy williams.

Duvall
05-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Strickland certainly has speed and showed some flashes last year, but was mistake-prone and didn't shoot consistently.

His shooting was consistent - it was just consistently poor. I'm not sure what's impressive about a turnover-prone combo guard with no outside shot.

chrisheery
05-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Don't mind making fun of the Where? twins, but they're not bad players and could certainly improve as they go along.

Agree with you about McDonald being down the list, but I really wonder about Strickland. What's his position? Do they try to make a PG out of him? Wouldn't he be behind both Drew 2 and Marshall? If he's more of a shooting guard, he's got to compete with Graves, Bullock and Barnes (to some extent at this position) for playing time. Strickland certainly has speed and showed some flashes last year, but was mistake-prone and didn't shoot consistently.

Isn't this the same question we used to ask about Nolan. At this point, though, who cares what his position is. Further, he has learned to play point as he has adjusted to the speed of the game in some ways. While I don't think he is a pure PG, he has refined his handle and could be a scoring PG in the NBA. So, Strickland has more than enough time to grow into a similar role as a PG/SG combo guard for the heels. I suspect he'll have a similar role but with more minutes in the coming year. He certainly is more talented than LDII. I would have him working to become a PG and he should want to because he won't be an NBA player as a 2 guard.

airowe
05-05-2010, 01:42 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what a tranfer is. Similar to a transfer?

JohnGalt
05-05-2010, 02:45 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what a tranfer is. Similar to a transfer?

The way I understand it is that a 'tranfer' doesn't become a 'transfer' until there is substance behind the rumor...

airowe
05-06-2010, 01:05 AM
The way I understand it is that a 'tranfer' doesn't become a 'transfer' until there is substance behind the rumor...

Is this substance?

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html


Freshman basketball forwards David and Travis Wear - McDonald's All-Americas and Best in the West selections as seniors at Mater Dei High - will not be returning to the University of North Carolina, their father told the Press-Telegram tonight.
Dave Wear said he discussed the decision with Tar Heels' coach Roy Williams earlier in the evening by telephone and that he hoped that his sons would be released from their scholarship agreements with the school ``as early as Thursday".

Duvall
05-06-2010, 01:30 AM
Is this substance?

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html

Cali kids. Whattaya gonna do?

Will Graves, backup center.

Welcome2DaSlopes
05-06-2010, 01:47 AM
They have no frontcourt, guess HB will be playing the 4 most of the game.

pfrduke
05-06-2010, 02:17 AM
Is this substance?

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html

Wow. I have to say I'm surprised - they would have been able to be successful four year players at UNC, I think.

Duvall
05-06-2010, 02:29 AM
Wow. I have to say I'm surprised - they would have been able to be successful four year players at UNC, I think.

This is a very troubling situation. Should Dick Baddour insert himself into the basketball program at UNC?

Greg_Newton
05-06-2010, 02:38 AM
I am guessing Harrison Barnes is expected to play significant minute at the 4, thus Wears leaving?

Switch the two halves of that sentence around, and you'll arrive at the hilariously ironic truth!

Oh, karma. :D

CampbellBlueDevil
05-06-2010, 03:07 AM
Now if Zeller breaks his wrist brushing his teeth in the offseason... UNC will be in dire straits. Can you imagine a Drew/Strickland/Bullock/Barnes/Henson line up haha

ElSid
05-06-2010, 03:18 AM
this one seems real.

UNC is going to be a joke under the basket next season. Zeller, Henson, and Barnes better bulk up and stay healthy. It's all they got. Right?

This is gonna force Barnes to play out of position a lot next year. Sigh. I almost feel bad. I'd rather beat them senseless when they're at full strength.

uh_no
05-06-2010, 04:32 AM
this one seems real.

UNC is going to be a joke under the basket next season. Zeller, Henson, and Barnes better bulk up and stay healthy. It's all they got. Right?

This is gonna force Barnes to play out of position a lot next year. Sigh. I almost feel bad. I'd rather beat them senseless when they're at full strength.

ESPN blogged about it.....lending it some credibility...i'm sure we'll here more tomorrow once the brothers are done with exams

flyingdutchdevil
05-06-2010, 04:45 AM
I'm really excited about Henson playing the 5 when Zeller gets into foul trouble (or, by seeing his history, injured). As I'm sure the Brothers Plumlee will get even bigger, it will be really interesting to see how Henson holds his own.

UNC next year could very well be like Duke a few years back when we didn't have a reliable frontcourt and teams punished us for it multiple times.

flyingdutchdevil
05-06-2010, 05:03 AM
First time I've done this - went to IC and read on the transfer. They are mad, confused, and irritated.

My favorite quote from the thread: "Oh, and everyone give the finger to the [euphemism for Duke fans] reading this."

Stay classy UNC, stay classy.

roywhite
05-06-2010, 06:54 AM
Where, oh Wear, has all that UNC frontcourt depth gone?

I'm curious about how this news is received at the Barnes home in Ames, Iowa. Surely his role will not be what he expected. Instead of roaming the perimeter looking for points, HB will need to play inside for the most part.

BattierBattalion
05-06-2010, 07:16 AM
Does Roy have an opportunity to get another uncommitted High school big guy (or two)? Are there any good ones left?

JasonEvans
05-06-2010, 07:22 AM
First of all, WHO TOLD YA THIS WAS COMING?!?!?! That's right, sportsfans! ME!!!

Second, Roy will adopt a "run or die" gameplan where they try to take height out of the equation by moving up and down the floor so fast. It may work ok for him against some teams and allow Carolina to be good enough to make the dance and perhaps even be in the top 25 at times. I am not sure how more running will fit with Drew II and Marshall's style of play. It could be turnover central again, that's for sure. Even with the perimeter talent and a commitment to pick up the pace and make size less of a factor, I have a hard time seeing them really competing with the best teams in the land next season.

I also expect Roy to comb the landscape for a juco or some remaining uncommitted big man recruit. I bet phone calls have already been made to Kadeem Jack (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4189106) , Luke Cothron (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3867285) (who was once involved with NC State), and Papa Samba Ndao (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3532545) (who was headed to BC before Skinner left and is now a free agent).

--Jason "wow, even though I posted it could happen a few days ago, I did not really believe it" Evans

roywhite
05-06-2010, 07:22 AM
How will Roy portray the double-Wear transfer? Woe is me?

It's probably not on the order of a Haiti earthquake, but surely this is as bad as the Tennessee floods or that oil slick thing in the Gulf?

IBleedBlue
05-06-2010, 07:24 AM
When some one from our team transfers, Coach K is blamed by the media and UNC fans alike for running the players out of Durham. This happened with EWill although it's a common knowledge that he had a strong medical reason to do so.

Now what, should we pile on Roy Williams for running (ruining) Wear twins out of hill? I thought they were the most fundamentally sound of all the freshmen that came in last year on UNC team.

JasonEvans
05-06-2010, 07:26 AM
How will Roy portray the double-Ware transfer? Woe is me?

It's probably not on the order of a Haiti earthquake, but surely this is as bad as the Tennessee floods or that oil slick thing in the Gulf?

POTD!!

oldnavy
05-06-2010, 07:39 AM
When some one from our team transfers, Coach K is blamed by the media and UNC fans alike for running the players out of Durham. This happened with EWill although it's a common knowledge that he had a strong medical reason to do so.

Now what, should we pile on Roy Williams for running (ruining) Wear twins out of hill? I thought they were the most fundamentally sound of all the freshmen that came in last year on UNC team.

Started a thread on this subject... It will be interesting to see the difference in perceptions.

devildeac
05-06-2010, 07:46 AM
this one seems real.

UNC is going to be a joke under the basket next season. Zeller, Henson, and Barnes better bulk up and stay healthy. It's all they got. Right?

This is gonna force Barnes to play out of position a lot next year. Sigh. I almost feel bad. I'd rather beat them senseless when they're at full strength.

I am happy to beat them senseless anytime: morning, afternoon, evening, full/half/quarter strength, etc.

airowe
05-06-2010, 08:07 AM
Three things.

1) Zeller hasn't shown that he is able to play an entire season without injury. If he can't stay healthy, an already thin front court will be really tHen, son.

2) tHenson got pulled out of almost every close game last year in the last 6-8 minutes either because he was such a liability on the free throw line or he just didn't have the stamina to play an entire game. I wonder if he can play those crucial minutes down the stretch this year when the Heels are trying to close a 8 point gap against Rutgers in MSG.

3) My how the tables have turned. Karma is a beyotch.

MChambers
05-06-2010, 08:07 AM
Second, Roy will adopt a "run or die" gameplan where they try to take height out of the equation by moving up and down the floor so fast. It may work ok for him against some teams and allow Carolina to be good enough to make the dance and perhaps even be in the top 25 at times. I am not sure how more running will fit with Drew II and Marshall's style of play. It could be turnover central again, that's for sure. Even with the perimeter talent and a commitment to pick up the pace and make size less of a factor, I have a hard time seeing them really competing with the best teams in the land next season.

I also expect Roy to comb the landscape for a juco or some remaining uncommitted big man recruit. I bet phone calls have already been made to Kadeem Jack (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4189106) , Luke Cothron (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3867285) (who was once involved with NC State), and Papa Samba Ndao (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3532545) (who was headed to BC before Skinner left and is now a free agent).


I wonder if Neil Fingleton has any eligibility left? (Roy: hint, he's living in Durham, England.)

That's a very small roster. Luckily, UNC has a coach who can adapt his system to any kind of roster . . .

I agree that Roy will have them play up tempo, but of course he always does. Playing Barnes at the 4 will definitely create match up problems for the other team. I wonder how this roster will fit into Carolina's defensive scheme.

Still, it's a team with 7 McDonald's all Americans, at least for now.

Lastly, let me remind you that about a year ago we were all wondering how Duke would survive with only three perimeter players, one of whom had not really played on the perimeter much during his college career. Look how that worked out!

wilko
05-06-2010, 08:14 AM
Lastly, let me remind you that about a year ago we were all wondering how Duke would survive with only three perimeter players, one of whom had not really played on the perimeter much during his college career. Look how that worked out!

We both know Roy aint K, (especially after last yr) so Im not overly worried at the moment about that, not now anyway. I just kinda doubt he has been struck by divine inspiration to stitch everything together overnite, in light of last years performance...

What really concerns me... is wether or not Cal takes a Pro job, leaving his UK players to be scooped up by somone.... not a fan of that scenario.

After soo much recent success and listening to light blue blow hards.... they are due for some pain and misery.

CDu
05-06-2010, 08:29 AM
Three things.

1) Zeller hasn't shown that he is able to play an entire season without injury. If he can't stay healthy, an already thin front court will be really tHen, son.

2) tHenson got pulled out of almost every close game last year in the last 6-8 minutes either because he was such a liability on the free throw line or he just didn't have the stamina to play an entire game. I wonder if he can play those crucial minutes down the stretch this year when the Heels are trying to close a 8 point gap against Rutgers in MSG.

3) My how the tables have turned. Karma is a beyotch.

On the other hand, this now eliminates that pesky scholarship situation with regard to Rivers... ;)

If this is true, then UNC will be REALLY small next year. I'd have to expect Graves and Barnes to see quite a bit of time at the 4, with Henson playing at the 5 a lot too. That's not ideal. It'll put a lot of pressure on pretty much everyone. I'm sure Williams will try even harder to push tempo, as he'll only have two bigs (unless something shocking happens last-minute) and both would prefer to play up-tempo anyway.

The one cloud over this is that it does open the door for UNC with regard to recruiting for the 2011-12 freshman class, whomever they may be able to get.

whereinthehellami
05-06-2010, 08:31 AM
LMAO. So the question is did Roy run them out because they are role players or did they want off the sinking USS Roy? Neither seems to really make sense to me so maybe its a combo, they found each other severely lacking. That scenario works for everyone including myself.

Channing
05-06-2010, 08:46 AM
i wonder if Roy makes a late push for a JC kid, or even Marcus Thornton. I think Thornton is waiting around to hear from Kentucky if Terrence Jones decides on Washington - Roy may make a call to him.

SMO
05-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Second, Roy will adopt a "run or die" gameplan where they try to take height out of the equation by moving up and down the floor so fast. It may work ok for him against some teams and allow Carolina to be good enough to make the dance and perhaps even be in the top 25 at times. I am not sure how more running will fit with Drew II and Marshall's style of play. It could be turnover central again, that's for sure. Even with the perimeter talent and a commitment to pick up the pace and make size less of a factor, I have a hard time seeing them really competing with the best teams in the land next season.

I REALLY like this scenario. In addition to being turnover city again he could run his only two bigs into the ground on a regular basis.

sandinmyshoes
05-06-2010, 09:01 AM
Sounds to me like UNC got Shav'd. When you see that it was the Wears' father who called Williams. And that the UNC basketball players seem caught by surprise (from the Henson tweet). But poppa Wear topped poppa Shav, because he got in a two-for. :D

miramar
05-06-2010, 09:19 AM
DeCourcy announces that the Wears will not be returning, but right under a CONGRATS DUKE! ad for championship gear.

Nothing could be finer...

http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2010-05-06/wear-twins-will-not-return-north-carolina

left_hook_lacey
05-06-2010, 09:21 AM
I also expect Roy to comb the landscape for a juco or some remaining uncommitted big man recruit. I bet phone calls have already been made to Kadeem Jack (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4189106) , Luke Cothron (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3867285) (who was once involved with NC State), and Papa Samba Ndao (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3532545) (who was headed to BC before Skinner left and is now a free agent).

--Jason "wow, even though I posted it could happen a few days ago, I did not really believe it" Evans

I agree. While we're all speculating at the probable lack of depth in the front court next season, let's not forget that there are some big men still looming out there and we are all aware of Williams' track record of landing last minute recruits. This transfer gives him two more scholarships to offer that he didn't have yesterday. I feel like he's already on a plane to go visit to some undecided big somewhere to give him an offer. Will he be able to land an instant contributor, probably not, but something is better than nothing in this case. He will need another big body and 5 more fouls if Henson has to spend a lot of time at center, especially when they're facing bigger teams.

yancem
05-06-2010, 09:27 AM
I can't see how this does not reflect poorly on Ol' Roy. Playing time would not have been a problem for the Wears next season and they would have had plenty of opportunity to prove themselves for the following season when McAdoo and whoever else Ol' Roy could bring in were to arrive. There are only two logical explanations that I can come up with 1) the Wears looked into the mirror and didn't think they measured up to play at unc (and let's be honest, how often has an athlete ever come to that conclusion) or 2) Ol' Roy looked into his crystal ball and saw a mediocre season at best next year and decided to run the Wears out of town so that he could secure the studs in the '11 class to put the program back on the right path.

One thing I think that Duke fans need to keep in mind is, Duke was in a similar situation just a few years ago and even though the future looks oh so bright at the moment, things can change in a hurry. Remember just 8 months ago unc was coming off a NC, was ranked in the top 5 and had just signed Barnes. They looked to be on top of the world. Then their world cam crashing down around Ol' Huck. Laugh too hard about unc's plight and karma may come back to bite us as well. (It's hard not to giggle a little though!)

Olympic Fan
05-06-2010, 09:29 AM
First of all, WHO TOLD YA THIS WAS COMING?!?!?! That's right, sportsfans! ME!!!

I also expect Roy to comb the landscape for a juco or some remaining uncommitted big man recruit. I bet phone calls have already been made to Kadeem Jack (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4189106) , Luke Cothron (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3867285) (who was once involved with NC State), and Papa Samba Ndao (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3532545) (who was headed to BC before Skinner left and is now a free agent).



Good call, Jason ...

As for the emergency replacemernts, I would not be surprised to see Roy try to bring in one more big body (which would essentially negate the mistake of giving two 'ships to the same mediocre player, which is what he did with the Wear twins).

I thought Cothran had committed to Auburn ... has he not signed his LOI? He was committed to State for about six months, but backed off when it started to look like State was going to get Leslie. He has academic issues too.

Marcus Thornton would be an interesting late get -- and IMHO an upgrade on the Wears. He's 6-7, 250 and Mr. Basketball in the state of Georgia. They could use his bulk. But Kentucky is also trying to get in on him late and UNC would be starting from scratch.

Thornton is probably the most-prized unsigned big man out there, unless you count the hopelessly confused Terrence Jones, who is more of a combo forward.

Not sure of the juco scene ... but it's awfully late. Hey, maybe Roy can pull an Andre Dawkins and get James McAdoo -- his great big man recruit for 2011 -- to come in a year early!

FWIW, I just realized that UNC and Kentucky are -- as of this moment -- actually very similar next season. Kentucky has the very promising freshman big man Kanter and a senior big man who has never played. Their next "post" plahyer is Miller -- a slender 6-7 wing shooter. UNC has Henson and Zeller -- after that, they go to Barnes and Graves.

It's going to be interesting ... and the exodus from Chapel Hill may not bhe over -- I keep hearing that Watts and/or Leslie McDonald are transfer possibilities.

airowe
05-06-2010, 09:29 AM
Unc players taking after their coach's lead and throwing teammates under the bus:

LDrew2 #theyleftbecause they found out they would have to room with zeller...again 3 minutes ago

LDrew2 #theyleftbecause I still couldn't tell them apart 6 minutes ago

left_hook_lacey
05-06-2010, 09:30 AM
How will Roy portray the double-Wear transfer? Woe is me?

It's probably not on the order of a Haiti earthquake, but surely this is as bad as the Tennessee floods or that oil slick thing in the Gulf?

I'm thinking the riot in Greece will be more accurate portrayal.

CameronBornAndBred
05-06-2010, 09:31 AM
I'm really surprised that the heels will be back relatively intact next year. I doubt the Wears go .
Well, so much for that. :D

jdj4duke
05-06-2010, 09:32 AM
Nothing like early morning schadenfreude to sweeten up the coffee. It would almost be worth going to IC to see the fiery threads that must be there, especially in view of the fact that a couple of months ago there was a string about 20 pages long about Andre Dawkins and the certainty of his leaving, having been used abused and all that.

It would probably take more laptop power to process the spin that is going on now over in the Hill.

CLT Devil
05-06-2010, 09:37 AM
There's speculation that MacAdoo might try to come out a year early, much like Dawkins did (What a copycat Roy) but I don't know if this is evern an option.

Like an earlier poster said: The day HWSNBN committed and broke some hearts UNC was coming off a Natty Champ year. Things at Duke were at a low, at least according to some; People were quetioning K's recruiting, Olympic Coaching, style of play, etc.

Now look at us; Coming off Natty Champ year, Singler returning, got a ton of talent coming in, including a potentially great PG and a shoting guard in Curry that can apparently light it up...basically going 10 deep next year. Upper class leadership.

I know the tide can change, but today is a GREAT day to be a Blue Devil. Aw shucks, Roy!!!

miramar
05-06-2010, 09:46 AM
Sounds to me like UNC got Shav'd. When you see that it was the Wears' father who called Williams. And that the UNC basketball players seem caught by surprise (from the Henson tweet). But poppa Wear topped poppa Shav, because he got in a two-for. :D

It does seem strange that the two players were on campus taking a final, but the father had to convey the news long distance. Was the exam on the other side of campus from the Dean Dome, or did another Tar Heel injury keep them from walking over? Maybe they didn't want to see a grown man cry (again).

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html

sdotbarbee
05-06-2010, 09:51 AM
I agree. While we're all speculating at the probable lack of depth in the front court next season, let's not forget that there are some big men still looming out there and we are all aware of Williams' track record of landing last minute recruits. This transfer gives him two more scholarships to offer that he didn't have yesterday. I feel like he's already on a plane to go visit to some undecided big somewhere to give him an offer. Will he be able to land an instant contributor, probably not, but something is better than nothing in this case. He will need another big body and 5 more fouls if Henson has to spend a lot of time at center, especially when they're facing bigger teams.

Yeah but could he really land someone that was better then the twins? I know they didn't put up stellar numbers but they were going to be a year older and I think could have improved greatly. IMO roy can't go out right now and land anyone that would contribute more then the twins.

moonpie23
05-06-2010, 09:55 AM
i'm not laughing, i would never laugh at roy or the program.....


but silent observation tells me that everything runs in cycles and no one is bullet proof.....


a newcomer to the triangle was talking about how strong the rivalry was and asked me (and others present) when it started. Some of my friends delved into history but i said, "it became an "issue" when duke started BEATING carolina, and an ARCH RIVALRY when K said "f-you dean"


after that night.....it was never the same...

Duke of Nashville
05-06-2010, 09:55 AM
This is terrible for the rivalry. I am not looking forward to a season of excuses and watching players get thrown under the bus left and right. Last season (along witht the 30 point beatdown) made up for the past four years. I hope the Bulls offer Roy Williams so that their officials can start over from the gates of hell.

Go Duke.

GTHC

Atlanta Duke
05-06-2010, 10:02 AM
There's speculation that MacAdoo might try to come out a year early, much like Dawkins did (What a copycat Roy) but I don't know if this is evern an option.

Like an earlier poster said: The day HWSNBN committed and broke some hearts UNC was coming off a Natty Champ year. Things at Duke were at a low, at least according to some; People were quetioning K's recruiting, Olympic Coaching, style of play, etc.

Now look at us; Coming off Natty Champ year, Singler returning, got a ton of talent coming in, including a potentially great PG and a shoting guard in Curry that can apparently light it up...basically going 10 deep next year. Upper class leadership.

I know the tide can change, but today is a GREAT day to be a Blue Devil. Aw shucks, Roy!!!

Was planning to post the same thoughts and you beat me to it - it can all turn quickly - in 2009 Carolina's plan for permanent world or at least ACC hegemony appeared to have been achieved (one Roy to rule them all) - for all I know a year from now Duke may be facing early outs and issues on how minutes were allocated in a stacked backcourt, so I will enjoy the Tar Heels problems while I can

WiJoe
05-06-2010, 10:11 AM
ESPN blogged about it.....lending it some credibility...


You need to get out more. ESPN < credibility

Billy Dat
05-06-2010, 10:17 AM
We all know Carolina isn't down for the count, and the rivalrly ebbs and flows....so forget karma. It's our time to crow until it's our time to eat crow! Cockadoodle do!!!!!!!!!

Of the many things to respect about K, his ability to take a punch is one of them. Early in his career, the mid 90s, the World Championship loss in 06 and the 07-10 title stretch were times of intense scrutiny. Each time, he emerged better and better. The guy has tremendous character, and a lot of it was forged in those 3 crucibles.

Now, Roy is in his own crucible. The UNC program has shown it can take a few blows and bounce back (Doherty, etc.) Let's see if Roy can take a few to the jaw and keep moving forward.

CrazieDUMB
05-06-2010, 10:23 AM
It does seem strange that the two players were on campus taking a final, but the father had to convey the news long distance. Was the exam on the other side of campus from the Dean Dome, or did another Tar Heel injury keep them from walking over? Maybe they didn't want to see a grown man cry (again).

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html

They probably had to call him because he's in Arizona

http://deadspin.com/5529643/later-roy-williams-told-a-masseuse-that-the-gulf-oil-catastrophe-was-nothing-compared-to-his-sunburn

billyj
05-06-2010, 10:29 AM
This may not be that great of a news (correct me if I am wrong). Does this mean Roy can now offer Austin Rivers a scholarship which he couldn't have before?

Scorp4me
05-06-2010, 10:41 AM
It took surgery for K to have a "down cycle". Sure you don't have great years, but the last guy to do this at Carolina was ole Doherty. Now based on his record at Kansas I'd like to think Roy has more in common with Dean than Doherty, but there have been other coaches who have flamed out once they moved up the ladder. If you can't think of any just ask a UNC fan, they'll be happy to name any of a number of K protege's who have. But this is more than a cycle.

I've gotta think Harrison Barnes is regretting his decision, but I also think he'll stick to it and make the best of it. And it's a good thing. I could be wrong, but that line-up does not look imposing. I guess I hadn't seen it all together til today when the DBR posted it. And now Henson's size looks even worse with less back-up and more time down low.

I don't know how Roy got UNC to this point, I'm betting he doesn't either. But another year or two of this and things will not be pretty. I mean I'm used to hearing "wait til next year" from them, but they usually have good reason to be upbeat about next year.

And last, as much as I'd like to be civil in the hopes that Carolina fans will be civil in return should the foot ever be on the other shoe, it ain't happening so as others have said you might as well enjoy it! I've said this is more than a down year cycle, but Carolina will rise again sometime in the future. All of this has happened before and it will all happen again.

UrinalCake
05-06-2010, 10:54 AM
I don't know how Roy got UNC to this point, I'm betting he doesn't either.

I see it as a combination of

a.) Recruiting misses - Drew, McDonald, and Strickland have not developed as well as expected. Sometimes this just happens, and isn't necessarily the fault of the persons evaluating the players in high school. It has happened to us as well (not going to mention any names here but you get my point).

b.) Injuries - Especially this past year, but in 2009 Zeller also missed a lot of time which hindered his development. Say what you will about all teams having injuries, but UNC in 2010 really did have a ton to deal with.

c.) Chemistry - Also a hard thing to predict. The team just hasn't jelled, and part of that is definitely Roy's responsibility.

d.) Coaching - As we all love to point out, Roy sticks to his run-and-gun style even when he doesn't have the personnel to match. To be fair, Coach K has principles that he sticks to as well, such as man-to-man defense, but he's shown far more ability to adapt and tweak his system. Roy has always had elite talent, and 2010 might be an indicator of how well he does without it.

Again, these things go in cycles. The class of Hansbrough, Lawson, and Ellington exceeded their rankings and also stuck around a year longer than expected, which covered up a lot of deficiencies. UNC will be back, but for now I'm loving it!

airowe
05-06-2010, 10:54 AM
This may not be that great of a news (correct me if I am wrong). Does this mean Roy can now offer Austin Rivers a scholarship which he couldn't have before?

Roy has offered Austin a scholarship. But he will not accept it.

Big Pappa
05-06-2010, 10:56 AM
Roy has offered Austin a scholarship. But he will not accept it.

Is this just your opinion?

BD80
05-06-2010, 10:57 AM
In news that may be related, ol' roy has lost his Coke endorsement contract, but will now be schilling for Cymbalta and Prilosec.

It will be fun to watch the "running heels" next year. Problem is, the three fastest guys down the court will be the post players. With their conditioning and frenetic pace, ol' roy will have to rotate his three post players. Barnes being a post player. The heels simply don't have the depth to play Zeller, Henson and Barnes together for significant amounts of time - particularly if he wants to go up-tempo. So Barnes in the post. That amuses me.

The transfers aren't really surprising, given the evidence that ol' roy completely lost the team last year. I feel badly for many of the players, but revel in the thought that ol' roy's facade may be crumbling.

Duvall
05-06-2010, 10:57 AM
Roy has offered Austin a scholarship. But he will not accept it.

Well. He doesn't plan to accept it.

I understand that people close to the Duke basketball program expect Rivers to commit to Duke. But it isn't done until it's done.

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:00 AM
I'm curious about how this news is received at the Barnes home in Ames, Iowa. Surely his role will not be what he expected. Instead of roaming the perimeter looking for points, HB will need to play inside for the most part.

On the other hand, he'll never have to leave the court. HB's going to average around 39.7 mpg (assuming they don't play a lot of OT games, in which case that guess might be low).

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:07 AM
Unc players taking after their coach's lead and throwing teammates under the bus:

LDrew2 #theyleftbecause they found out they would have to room with zeller...again 3 minutes ago

LDrew2 #theyleftbecause I still couldn't tell them apart 6 minutes ago

Actually, this is kind of funny stuff from LDII.

Bluealum
05-06-2010, 11:09 AM
Two ways to paint the same picture…

Woe is me…

Carolina coming off its worst season in recent memory has only two players over 6-8 neither of whom provide a physcially intimidating presence on the court. They return a much maligned point guard and a newcomer who was highly sought after and ‘talented’ but does not appear to match Roy Williams break-neck style. Their lone scholarship senior is a head-case and their best leader is likely to be a freshmen in the hot-glare of a spotlight that will be all the brighter for the unexpected defections and travails of the prior season. They aren’t in the conversation with their cross-town rivals coming off a national championship, with their best player returning for his senior season and a wealth of incoming talent (two with collegiate experience). Furthermore, their fellow public institution (NCSU) is on the rise , with dramatically improved talent, significant experience at both the point and the pivot, and a coach who appears to be gaining confidence and coaching acumen after the rough start that almost all great coaches appear to have in their first major college coaching years.

Painting the above picture provides a few things:
1.) Removes any pressure for immediate success
2.) Provides focus and concentration for an unappreciated team
3.) Provides a great back story if the team achieves anything above average success during the season, and a truly epic story if the team finishes in the top 3 in the ACC.
4.) Provides pressure to both in state rivals to be notably better than the Tar Heels in order to garner any positive exposure regarding the efforts of their young, hard working student atheletes who get absolutely nothing handed to them because a bunch of overweight writers labled them ‘talented’ and ‘favorites’.

The other story…

Carolina has a hall of fame coach with two National titles in half a dozen years. They have one of the only athletic and coordinated 7 foot centers in the county. This young man has a world of potential with excellent touch and footspeed for a man his size. With experience and a focus on his health, he is ready for a breakout season. Carolina also has one of the most celebrated high school stars who will man his natural power-forward position all year. He is freakishly long and athletic, has great hands, and is a natural shot blocker with excellent timing and the look of a leader. Carolina also brings in the most celebrated new freshman in the country at the small forward position. He is touted as a game changer, leader, and NBA ready player who is perhaps only stopping by college because of the NBA imposed freshmen ineligibility rule. They will have perhaps the longest and most atheletic front court in the nation at 7-1, 6-11, 6-8 which is certainly from a high-school perspective, the most celebrated and ‘talented’ trio that any team can sport as a starting front court. To add to this trio, their veteren senior wing, a burly 6-6 Will Graves who has the experience and physicallity to guard bigger players down low and shoot over those players on offense can play either of the forward positions, a more natural fit than the shooting guard postion he was often forced to play in last years front-court laden team. Carolina’s backcourt is loaded with depth. They have a veteren point guard that has been through the rigors of 2 ACC seasons, has shown a decent shooting touch despite the extra focus other teams have given with with last years dearth of shooters. He handles the ball well and his experience and better supporting cast are sure to have a notably positive impact on his playmaking In the coming year. Alongside him they bring back Leslie McDonald and Dexter Strickland, speedy athletes who appeared to only lack the good decision making that comes with experience, as well as two highly touted big freshmen guards in Reggie Bullock, who brings noticible swagger to the team, and Kendall Marshall who had a great high school reputation and purported leadership skills.

With the enthusiasm and confidence of Bullock, Barnes, Henson and Marshall and the cool headed experience of Zeller and Drew, along with the firey Graves the chemistry is sure to be better than the privious team with the sulking, emotionless Ed Davis, and the gritty but overmatched Wear twins occuping minutes and coaching attention. The lack of excessive depth will be a boon to a coach who tends to overuse his bench to the detriment of developing team chemistry and identity.

With a plethora of all americans and as little pressure as is possible for such a collection of talent, coaching, institutional support, large fan base and fawning media, the team is poised to vastly exceed artificially low expectations and gain further energy from a misplaced ‘underdog rising’ story.

SO…. If you were a writer/UNC journalism school alumnus who writes for a paper in NC (Virtually all of the writers…it seems follow this bio). Which story would you write? The one that sets your team up for the 'Phoenix rising' byline…or the one that sets expectations appropriately but risks incurring a fan backlash on the team, adding pressure to the players, and questioning your alma mater’s celebrated coach if things fall apart again.

I am guessing you will read a whole lot of the ‘Woe is me’ version. I like the other story… where we talk about the Hall of Fame coach and all the Mickey D’s … and we beat them 3 times after graduating 3 starters including two of our great leaders and the biggest Blue Devil in history.

BD80
05-06-2010, 11:09 AM
They probably had to call him because he's in Arizona

http://deadspin.com/5529643/later-roy-williams-told-a-masseuse-that-the-gulf-oil-catastrophe-was-nothing-compared-to-his-sunburn

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2010/05/500x_roywilliams.jpg

"If I close my eyes tight enough, maybe this will all have been a dream and the heels will still be reigning champions"

"I'm not in Kansas anymore"

CameronBornAndBred
05-06-2010, 11:10 AM
Well. He doesn't plan to accept it.

I understand that people close to the Duke basketball program expect Rivers to commit to Duke. But it isn't done until it's done.
Those same people were expecting Barnes to commit as well.

JohnGalt
05-06-2010, 11:17 AM
Is this substance?

http://www.insidesocal.com/frankburlison/2010/05/wear-twins-not-returning-to-un.html

Man, talk about irony. That was like 12 hours later...

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:19 AM
It took surgery for K to have a "down cycle". Sure you don't have great years, but the last guy to do this at Carolina was ole Doherty. Now based on his record at Kansas I'd like to think Roy has more in common with Dean than Doherty, but there have been other coaches who have flamed out once they moved up the ladder. If you can't think of any just ask a UNC fan, they'll be happy to name any of a number of K protege's who have. But this is more than a cycle.

I've gotta think Harrison Barnes is regretting his decision, but I also think he'll stick to it and make the best of it. And it's a good thing. I could be wrong, but that line-up does not look imposing. I guess I hadn't seen it all together til today when the DBR posted it. And now Henson's size looks even worse with less back-up and more time down low.

I don't know how Roy got UNC to this point, I'm betting he doesn't either. But another year or two of this and things will not be pretty. I mean I'm used to hearing "wait til next year" from them, but they usually have good reason to be upbeat about next year.

And last, as much as I'd like to be civil in the hopes that Carolina fans will be civil in return should the foot ever be on the other shoe, it ain't happening so as others have said you might as well enjoy it! I've said this is more than a down year cycle, but Carolina will rise again sometime in the future. All of this has happened before and it will all happen again.

It is exactly the way a down cycle looks. What I see is next year being kind of like 2005-06 for UNC. They had one good freshman and one really good freshman but didn't have any depth and didn't look like they were going to do much, but they had a surprisingly good year, albeit a year ended by George Mason in the NCAAT 2nd round. The following season they added the pieces they were missing and they did OK for themselves.

I doubt HB regrets his decision at all. Look for him to play more than one season in Chapel Hill and have some success. UNC will be back, unfortunately.

BD80
05-06-2010, 11:24 AM
Where are we in the recruiting cycle?

I don't think ol' roy can fly to visit potential recruits right now. The heels may be able to host potential recruits, and roy may be able to call.

Poor roy, this is really going to mess with his tanning cycle. Or maybe he won't let it interfere.

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:25 AM
They have one of the only athletic and coordinated 7 foot centers in the county.

Yeah, but Orange County just isn't all that big. ;)

MChambers
05-06-2010, 11:26 AM
It is exactly the way a down cycle looks. What I see is next year being kind of like 2005-06 for UNC. They had one good freshman and one really good freshman but didn't have any depth and didn't look like they were going to do much, but they had a surprisingly good year, albeit a year ended by George Mason in the NCAAT 2nd round. The following season they added the pieces they were missing and they did OK for themselves.

I doubt HB regrets his decision at all. Look for him to play more than one season in Chapel Hill and have some success. UNC will be back, unfortunately.

No need to be so pessimistic!

Troublemaker
05-06-2010, 11:30 AM
From a cutthroat point of view, the Wears transferring is actually great news for UNC long-term, and I don't think it hurts them that much short-term, if at all. Instead of two scholarship albatrosses hanging around the neck, UNC can now go recruit two better players than the Wears.

My hope is that UNC goes the "emergency class of '10 big man" route as speculated by others above, but the prudent thing for UNC to do would be to save these two schollies and try to use them on actual studs in the '11 and '12 classes instead of some fringe ACC player in '10.

Congratulations to UNC fans. They must be thrilled today.

ice-9
05-06-2010, 11:31 AM
The other story…

Carolina has a hall of fame coach with two National titles in half a dozen years. They have one of the only athletic and coordinated 7 foot centers in the county. This young man has a world of potential with excellent touch and footspeed for a man his size. With experience and a focus on his health, he is ready for a breakout season. Carolina also has one of the most celebrated high school stars who will man his natural power-forward position all year. He is freakishly long and athletic, has great hands, and is a natural shot blocker with excellent timing and the look of a leader. Carolina also brings in the most celebrated new freshman in the country at the small forward position. He is touted as a game changer, leader, and NBA ready player who is perhaps only stopping by college because of the NBA imposed freshmen ineligibility rule. They will have perhaps the longest and most atheletic front court in the nation at 7-1, 6-11, 6-8 which is certainly from a high-school perspective, the most celebrated and ‘talented’ trio that any team can sport as a starting front court. To add to this trio, their veteren senior wing, a burly 6-6 Will Graves who has the experience and physicallity to guard bigger players down low and shoot over those players on offense can play either of the forward positions, a more natural fit than the shooting guard postion he was often forced to play in last years front-court laden team. Carolina’s backcourt is loaded with depth. They have a veteren point guard that has been through the rigors of 2 ACC seasons, has shown a decent shooting touch despite the extra focus other teams have given with with last years dearth of shooters. He handles the ball well and his experience and better supporting cast are sure to have a notably positive impact on his playmaking In the coming year. Alongside him they bring back Leslie McDonald and Dexter Strickland, speedy athletes who appeared to only lack the good decision making that comes with experience, as well as two highly touted big freshmen guards in Reggie Bullock, who brings noticible swagger to the team, and Kendall Marshall who had a great high school reputation and purported leadership skills.

With the enthusiasm and confidence of Bullock, Barnes, Henson and Marshall and the cool headed experience of Zeller and Drew, along with the firey Graves the chemistry is sure to be better than the privious team with the sulking, emotionless Ed Davis, and the gritty but overmatched Wear twins occuping minutes and coaching attention. The lack of excessive depth will be a boon to a coach who tends to overuse his bench to the detriment of developing team chemistry and identity.

With a plethora of all americans and as little pressure as is possible for such a collection of talent, coaching, institutional support, large fan base and fawning media, the team is poised to vastly exceed artificially low expectations and gain further energy from a misplaced ‘underdog rising’ story.


Right on my friend. The other story is exactly what's on my mind. Folks, this UNC team is still going to be good. They won't have much post depth, which may limit how far they can go in the tournament, but their starting five will be among the most talented and possibly one of the best in the nation. And they will have depth on the perimeter.

C: 7'1 Zeller - #18
PF: 6'10 Henson - #5
SF: 6'8 Barnes - #1
SG: 6'6 Bullock - #10
PG: 6'3 Marshall - #19

UNC could easily start a lineup with an average height of 6'8 and an RSCI ranking of #10.6 -- folks, that's no joke.

This team should easily make the NCAA tournament and I wouldn't bat an eyelash to see them finish top three in the ACC.

There is a TON of talent there and it's WAY too early for us to gloat.

JohnGalt
05-06-2010, 11:34 AM
C: 7'1 Zeller - #18
PF: 6'10 Henson - #5
SF: 6'8 Barnes - #1
SG: 6'6 Bullock - #10
PG: 6'3 Marshall - #19

UNC could easily start a lineup with an average height of 6'8 and an RSCI ranking of #10.6 -- folks, that's no joke.

This team should easily make the NCAA tournament and I wouldn't bat an eyelash to see them finish top three in the ACC.

There is a TON of talent there and it's WAY too early for us to gloat.


Unfortunately, talent doesn't necesarily translate to success.

(see Season - 2009-2010)

ice-9
05-06-2010, 11:41 AM
Unfortunately, talent doesn't necesarily translate to success.

(see Season - 2009-2010)

It usually does though.

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:50 AM
Right on my friend. The other story is exactly what's on my mind. Folks, this UNC team is still going to be good. They won't have much post depth, which may limit how far they can go in the tournament, but their starting five will be among the most talented and possibly one of the best in the nation. And they will have depth on the perimeter.

C: 7'1 Zeller - #18
PF: 6'10 Henson - #5
SF: 6'8 Barnes - #1
SG: 6'6 Bullock - #10
PG: 6'3 Marshall - #19

UNC could easily start a lineup with an average height of 6'8 and an RSCI ranking of #10.6 -- folks, that's no joke.

This team should easily make the NCAA tournament and I wouldn't bat an eyelash to see them finish top three in the ACC.

There is a TON of talent there and it's WAY too early for us to gloat.

Well, thing is, that lineup looks good from a high school recruiting ranking standpoint, but to me it's not really a winning lineup. They have a shot-blocking presence, but both of their big men should be relatively easy for anyone of bulk to push around. With those two plus three starting freshmen, they are going to have major defensive problems.

Assuming a timeshare between Marshall and LDII, their other depth is essentially Strickland and Graves, unless McDonald can suddenly become a player. Personally, I don't think Marshall is going to start over LDII, but either way the problem with UNC's talented lineup is they don't have the right PG to take advantage of the strengths of their other players. With those two running the point and without frontcourt depth it's going to be difficult to maintain the running style which is really their only hope to overachieve.

I think NC State is now clearly better than UNC. The Heels will be fighting to finish in the middle of the pack in the ACC.


No need to be so pessimistic!

There, did I make up for it?

slower
05-06-2010, 11:52 AM
I think NC State is now clearly better than UNC.

Easy there, big fella.

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Easy there, big fella.

First of all, I really do believe State is better than UNC next year. I thought it before the Wears transferred.

Second, I was trying to make up for being too nice to Carolina in a previous post, and being called out about it (by MChambers). It's all in fun, anyway, right?

calvindog
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Right on my friend. The other story is exactly what's on my mind. Folks, this UNC team is still going to be good. They won't have much post depth, which may limit how far they can go in the tournament, but their starting five will be among the most talented and possibly one of the best in the nation. And they will have depth on the perimeter.

C: 7'1 Zeller - #18
PF: 6'10 Henson - #5
SF: 6'8 Barnes - #1
SG: 6'6 Bullock - #10
PG: 6'3 Marshall - #19

UNC could easily start a lineup with an average height of 6'8 and an RSCI ranking of #10.6 -- folks, that's no joke.

This team should easily make the NCAA tournament and I wouldn't bat an eyelash to see them finish top three in the ACC.

There is a TON of talent there and it's WAY too early for us to gloat.

I agree that it's a pretty good team as Zeller is certainly a decent player, Henson will be very good and presumably Barnes is the real deal. Drew is a more than competent PG at this stage and Graves can occasionally fill it up. Add in a presumably decent to good freshman in Bullock and the team looks ok. Will they lose a lot nevertheless? Absolutely. Should we beat them twice? Yes. Nolan and Kyle will be the best two players on the floor when we play them with Kyrie not far behind.

DukieInBrasil
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
was glee - wow, UNC is gonna suck next year. But after some reflectificating, I don't think that this really hurts them and may in fact be a positive for 2010-11. The Wears didn't show too much flash and would probably average a combined 10pts or less per game, with 8 or fewer rebs etc. Those aren't bad numbers for So., but they would get used if available, cuz they need the depth in the post, and would dilute the overall talent of the roster.
Ol' Roy may or may not be able to adjust to the roster that he has, but there is plenty of talent over there, just not a lot of depth at the 4 and 5 spots. I'm sure HB would rather play more of a SF game, but he's (presumably) got the talent to play the 4 as well.
My big doubt for them is: how will they deal with no frontcourt depth. They could and maybe should start all 3 of their big'uns, but how are they gonna handle the total lack of subs for the 4 and 5? i guess they'll kind of be the anti-2010 National Champions (that would be us), who had 3 guards and lots of frontcourt depth...

DukeSean
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
Right on my friend. The other story is exactly what's on my mind. Folks, this UNC team is still going to be good. They won't have much post depth, which may limit how far they can go in the tournament, but their starting five will be among the most talented and possibly one of the best in the nation. And they will have depth on the perimeter.

C: 7'1 Zeller - #18
PF: 6'10 Henson - #5
SF: 6'8 Barnes - #1
SG: 6'6 Bullock - #10
PG: 6'3 Marshall - #19

UNC could easily start a lineup with an average height of 6'8 and an RSCI ranking of #10.6 -- folks, that's no joke.

This team should easily make the NCAA tournament and I wouldn't bat an eyelash to see them finish top three in the ACC.

There is a TON of talent there and it's WAY too early for us to gloat.

Talent is there for sure, you can't deny that. Anyone who does is not seeing things correctly. That being said, the experience obviously isn't there to translate to late season success. Zeller would be the most experienced of the 5, and how much real experience does he have, given all his injuries?

Anyways, this could be a top 25 team on talent alone, but as the season wears on and the team wears down (did you like that?), they won't be getting too far.

Duvall
05-06-2010, 12:13 PM
Assuming a timeshare between Marshall and LDII, their other depth is essentially Strickland and Graves, unless McDonald can suddenly become a player.

Right. They have only one frontcourt player to back up Zeller, Henson and Barnes, and that player is only Will Graves. Not much margin for error.

And starting two freshmen and Larry Drew won't do much for their turnover problems.

DukieInBrasil
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Will they lose a lot nevertheless? Absolutely. Should we beat them twice? Yes. Nolan and Kyle will be the best two players on the floor when we play them with Kyrie not far behind.

I agree re Kyle and Nolan being better than anyone on UNC's roster, I have no opinion on Kyrie vs. HB as I have never seen them play, but you think Kyrie is better than the Anointed Best Freshmen In the Country? As pointed out earlier in Kyrie's thread, I think KI may very well end up having a better profile by the end of next year simply by playing on a) a better team and b) on a team that will allow him to play to his strengths.
HB is playing w/o any excellent guards to get him the ball and is now playing with no frontcourt depth so he'll end up playing out of position on occasion.
Kyrie on the other hand is a PG and will play PG, not out of position. He also has, literally, tons of people to pass the ball to for high-percentage shots.

DukieInBrasil
05-06-2010, 12:18 PM
Talent is there for sure, you can't deny that. Anyone who does is not seeing things correctly. That being said, the experience obviously isn't there to translate to late season success. Zeller would be the most experienced of the 5, and how much real experience does he have, given all his injuries?

Anyways, this could be a top 25 team on talent alone, but as the season wears on and the team wears down (did you like that?), they won't be getting too far.

NIT-bound again you think?

BTW, i like the puns...

CLT Devil
05-06-2010, 12:34 PM
I really enjoyed watching the movie "The Silence Of The Rams" last year, and I hear they might have a sequel, although they are rarely as good as the first ones.

3rd Dukie
05-06-2010, 12:35 PM
This is terrible for the rivalry. I am not looking forward to a season of excuses and watching players get thrown under the bus left and right. Last season (along witht the 30 point beatdown) made up for the past four years. I hope the Bulls offer Roy Williams so that their officials can start over from the gates of hell.

Go Duke.

GTHC

I, for one, am VERY much looking forward to it.

slower
05-06-2010, 12:35 PM
Oh, how I desperately wish that one of the Wears was named Waldo!

Lord Ash
05-06-2010, 12:36 PM
Has anyone else seen the twitter chatter after this? Henson and a few others were really talking badly about the Wears... saying they were glad they were gone because now they could get some real players, saying they left because they couldn't find a place to park their pickup truck, saying they couldn't tell them apart anyway... Deon actually twittered at the other guys to knock it off, it wasn't funny.

Check out The Devils Den or even Inside Carolina for some pretty long posts about it.

The chemistry on that team is just abysmal, and I don't know if the Wears were part of the problem, or are leaving because of it.

-bdbd
05-06-2010, 12:39 PM
Right. They have only one frontcourt player to back up Zeller, Henson and Barnes, and that player is only Will Graves. Not much margin for error.

And starting two freshmen and Larry Drew won't do much for their turnover problems.

Upon reading of the Wears' departure my first thought was, "...like rats off of a sinking ship." Apparently players don't seem to have as much fun over there when constantly losing. :rolleyes: Lots of departures. Is this it? Any more?

It isn't so much the height as the heft, as NC@CH has I think ONE player over about 215 lbs (and that's a 6'4" guard!). Not sure what HB weighs in at these days, but frosh usually can add strength/bulk. This team is going to get pushed around inside badly, and when they start helping from the perimeter - which is inevitable - then good outside shooting teams (such as Duke) will make them pay. I don't see this being more than an average defensive squad, especially with all of the youth.

If either of their 2 bigs gets injured the year, or in foul trouble, then they are in serious trouble. Combine that with the dearth of leadership & experience and you have a recipe for another disappointing season down the road. I don't expect another .500 regular season, but these guys are no slam dunk (excuse pun) to make the NCAAT. I peg them at #4-#5 in ACC preseason. Teams are much more than just adding up recruiting rankings of individual players. This year NC@CH fans are better off watching footbal than BB (when'd you ever think you'd hear that??).

As stated above by Ash, "The chemistry on that team is just abysmal, and I don't know if the Wears were part of the problem, or are leaving because of it." That's one aspect that the IC faithful seem to think Ole Huck is just going to wave his magic wand over and make it go away. That won't happen easily or, I expect, quickly.

BTW, Roy better pray that HB is "the real deal" b/c his best bet is probably going to be to just roll the ball out to HB and see how much he can carry the team. You kinda hafta wonder if Harrison is thinking to himself, "Man, this isn't what I signed up for..."

Hmmmmm.


P.S. And yes, I too pick NCSU above NC@CH.

CameronBornAndBred
05-06-2010, 12:39 PM
Instead of two scholarship albatrosses hanging around the neck, UNC can now go recruit two better players than the Wears.

Recruiting better players will not always translate into actually landing better players.

3rd Dukie
05-06-2010, 12:45 PM
(couldn't help stealing that Bushism)

I find myself actually wishing the Heels a better season next year than this season.

I hope they actually WIN the NIT next year!!

InSpades
05-06-2010, 12:45 PM
They seemed like good kids to me. Maybe not the most talented but when they were in the game they worked hard. I can see why they wouldn't want to stay in that environment :D.

While I realize they weren't the 2 most talented kids... a program can really use those sorts of players. I'm sure there were people who would've said "they weren't that good anyway" if Lance or Zoubs had left after their freshman years. Look how that turned out? How about a guy like McClure... what would people have said if he transfered? I don't know but I do know Duke was better off having a guy like that stick around.

You need continuity to build a consistent team that competes for titles every year. What is UNC going to do in a year when Barnes and Henson are declaring early after UNC had a decent but not great year? They are going to need some big things to go their way in recruiting over the next 12 months.

TampaDukie
05-06-2010, 12:48 PM
Has anyone else seen the twitter chatter after this? Henson and a few others were really talking badly about the Wears... saying they were glad they were gone because now they could get some real players, saying they left because they couldn't find a place to park their pickup truck, saying they couldn't tell them apart anyway... Deon actually twittered at the other guys to knock it off, it wasn't funny.

Check out The Devils Den or even Inside Carolina for some pretty long posts about it.

The chemistry on that team is just abysmal, and I don't know if the Wears were part of the problem, or are leaving because of it.
This has been the most interesting aspect of this transfer story for me. It's pretty evident there were cliques on that team, and the Wears seemed to be on the outside looking in. Henson's tweets, in particular, would disturb me if I were a Carolina fan. *shudder* That young man should grow up (and learn the difference between "their" and "there").

Anyway, maybe the team chemistry will be better with the Wears gone, but all the talent in the world can't overcome bad chemistry, IMO. Suddenly, last season is making a lot more sense.

NYDukie
05-06-2010, 12:53 PM
IMO, UNC is the big swing team in the ACC and the national map next year. In the end, I believe Duke will still hold the upper hand but before we dismiss them let's look at few different aspects of their team.

1. Team chemistry was a big "cloud" over them this past year that was repeated over and over. Seems that a few of the rumored reasons now may be gone in Davis, Thompson and the Wears. To what extent each affected team chemistry is debatable but it appears some combo of those four contributed to it.

2. Some are quick to say they have no frontcourt depth and as a result they should be dismissed to the NCAA bubble or the NIT once more. Wasn't this past year's Duke team questioned for the same reason in the backcourt? Yes, Scheyer and Nolan were a more reliable duo but no one for sure knew Nolan would have the huge uptick in his contributions as he did while Andre would provide some insurance and make some big shots in his limited playing time. I understand Duke had other reliable options also, such as Kyle but who is to say that neither one of Zeller or Henson turns the corner and becomes a 15/8 player while the other is solid contributor. In addition, Barnes could spell them occassionally upfront.

3. Though freshman, Barnes and Bullock do provide them the possible outside perimeter shooting they lacked. Again, freshman are violatile in production so this can also go many ways but at they do provide UNC more options.

4. UNC's major issue to me still will be PG and that to me will be what ultimately drags them down. I think Drew got bashed unfairly but at the same time he was miscast for UNC's system. Whether Marshall is the answer remains to be seen as it seems his stock has dropped.

All I'm saying, and "I'm just sayin" is lets not gloat too much here as some have. I'm not including everyone here as some are more cautious in their opinions of UNC's situation. There is talent over there and sometimes things just need to be added or taken out and stirred back up to get it right. Maybe it works for UNC, maybe it doesn't but from the shade of blue, it will be interesting to see how it goes over there. Do they beat the Duke team next year? I don't think so but they will be a player in my opinion next year.

jipops
05-06-2010, 12:59 PM
I don't see this development affecting UNC very much, if at all. They're still stacked with talent (a minimum of 4 future draft picks in the starting 5) and more experience in the back court. I would bet on them being in the top 4 of the ACC, maybe even top 2, and a very difficult match-up for most teams with the size of their wings and tremendous athleticism.

There should be no breakdown from Roy here. There is still a ton of talent to work with here that pretty much every other college program would love to have. No doubt, this team will be a lot better than last years'.

UrinalCake
05-06-2010, 12:59 PM
If either of their 2 bigs gets injured the year, or in foul trouble, then they are in serious trouble.

Not only that, but the lack of frontcourt depth will make it tough for Roy to run his preferred run-and-gun style. You can't ask two big guys to sprint back and forth across the floor for an entire game. So does Roy slow things down in order to limit the number of possessions (as we did this year)? Or does he have Barnes play extended minutes at the 4? If Zeller and Henson play 30 minutes each (which is a lot), then that leaves 20 minutes for Barnes to play the 4. And 10 of those minutes will be with Henson at the 5.

There are plenty of teams in college who play without much size (Purdue comes to mind) and without much depth (Butler?)... we're just unaccustomed to seeing it at Carolina.

Nugget
05-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Wow. Shows what the heck I know.

Having said that, I bet Roy won't mind it too much, as Carolina's best chance for success next year is to run, run, run.

Kedsy
05-06-2010, 01:04 PM
IMO, UNC is the big swing team in the ACC and the national map next year. In the end, I believe Duke will still hold the upper hand but before we dismiss them let's look at few different aspects of their team.

1. Team chemistry was a big "cloud" over them this past year that was repeated over and over. Seems that a few of the rumored reasons now may be gone in Davis, Thompson and the Wears. To what extent each affected team chemistry is debatable but it appears some combo of those four contributed to it.

2. Some are quick to say they have no frontcourt depth and as a result they should be dismissed to the NCAA bubble or the NIT once more. Wasn't this past year's Duke team questioned for the same reason in the backcourt? Yes, Scheyer and Nolan were a more reliable duo but no one for sure knew Nolan would have the huge uptick in his contributions as he did while Andre would provide some insurance and make some big shots in his limited playing time. I understand Duke had other reliable options also, such as Kyle but who is to say that neither one of Zeller or Henson turns the corner and becomes a 15/8 player while the other is solid contributor. In addition, Barnes could spell them occassionally upfront.

3. Though freshman, Barnes and Bullock do provide them the possible outside perimeter shooting they lacked. Again, freshman are violatile in production so this can also go many ways but at they do provide UNC more options.

4. UNC's major issue to me still will be PG and that to me will be what ultimately drags them down. I think Drew got bashed unfairly but at the same time he was miscast for UNC's system. Whether Marshall is the answer remains to be seen as it seems his stock has dropped.

All I'm saying, and "I'm just sayin" is lets not gloat too much here as some have. I'm not including everyone here as some are more cautious in their opinions of UNC's situation. There is talent over there and sometimes things just need to be added or taken out and stirred back up to get it right. Maybe it works for UNC, maybe it doesn't but from the shade of blue, it will be interesting to see how it goes over there. Do they beat the Duke team next year? I don't think so but they will be a player in my opinion next year.

While I agree UNC should be an NCAA team next year, and also agree one of UNC's biggest issue is a lack of a PG who can run Roy's high octane system, there is a big difference between having no frontcourt depth and having no backcourt depth: foul trouble. It's a lot easier for opposing teams to draw fouls from an interior defender than a perimeter defender.

Which is why the reason that next year's UNC team will not be an elite team is they will be a poor defensive team. Their frontcourt will have to be wary of foul trouble and their perimeter players are freshmen, sophomores who haven't played that much, or players who have not shown a predilection for bearing down on the defensive side of the court.

Kewlswim
05-06-2010, 01:05 PM
Hi,

"Roy Williams." If he can get the players he has to play like a team and make good use of their talents the Tar Heels will (unfortunately) be fine. If he coaches like last season and tries to shove square pegs into round holes--I think the Heels will have another long season.

Why are these UNC threads so long anyway? I would rather talk about our kids and what Duke will do next year.

GO DUKE!

greybeard
05-06-2010, 01:10 PM
Henson, I think, is enormously talented. Better upside than anyone who has played at UNC than the Jamison days. In my view, much bigger upside than Davis.

You put him and HB up front and you have a formidable half court and full court game. Drew will be more than competent as a lead guard with those two out there. Zoller gives Carolina a three-man big rotation that is not to be underestimated.

Both Henson and Barnes will be terribly difficult to guard in the half court, especially inside, especially off of controlled breaks in which they catch in the middle without help defense set.

I haven't given any thought to what else Carolina has but both these guys are likely to be dynamite on the college level, probably next year. It won't take much else.

sandinmyshoes
05-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Now there is rumor that UNC might take a look at Kadeem Jack. He's a mobile power forward or even center in a pinch. He was a late bloomer, who can run the floor and rebound despite being thin. Supposedly he was thinking of going prep so that he could maybe catch some offers from elite programs. UNC might be exactly what he's looking for without having to prep a year.

If they pick up this kid, and get to use the other Wear scholarship next year... that will possibly be more than a little annoying.

God forbid they should get Terrance Jones somehow, the Jacks kid would be bad enough.

Jderf
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
No doubt, this team will be a lot better than last years'.

Will it be? I mean, I'm not saying it won't. There's the potential for them to be better. Who knows how this will play out? Maybe Roy will comb the country for a passable replacement and they will excel next year. Maybe he won't and they will suffer in late-game scenarios because of it. Or maybe he won't find someone and they'll still be better or he will find someone and they'll be worse. But this transfer (these transfers?) puts a gigantic question mark in the middle of their frontcourt. They could still improve, or this could be the beginning of a long and deep slide (let's hope so). Losing four players for two positions in one off-season is not easily replaced.

gumbomoop
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
While I agree UNC should be an NCAA team next year, and also agree one of UNC's biggest issue is a lack of a PG who can run Roy's high octane system, there is a big difference between having no frontcourt depth and having no backcourt depth: foul trouble. It's a lot easier for opposing teams to draw fouls from an interior defender than a perimeter defender.

Which is why the reason that next year's UNC team will not be an elite team is they will be a poor defensive team. Their frontcourt will have to be wary of foul trouble and their perimeter players are freshmen, sophomores who haven't played that much, or players who have not shown a predilection for bearing down on the defensive side of the court.

Among many insightful posts in this thread, I nominate Kedsy's for some follow-up praise and/or commentary, as most have not said much about defense.

Including me. I've posted several times recently that I still have Heels at ACC #2, but on "IC funny" thread, I admitted to "wobbling" at latest news. Kedsy's point wobbles me ever more, as it's a big ?-mark. Henson is certainly a shot blocker, but fundamentally sound D? Doubtful. Roy able/willing to coach fierce D? Doubtful. Graves willing to play every play on D? Doubtful. Marshall able to defend opposing PGs of big-time talent? Doubtful.

Allow me also to commend, for those of you who won't read every post on this schadenfreuede-filled thread, post #169 by Bluealum. Very thoughtful.

CDu
05-06-2010, 01:30 PM
While I agree UNC should be an NCAA team next year, and also agree one of UNC's biggest issue is a lack of a PG who can run Roy's high octane system, there is a big difference between having no frontcourt depth and having no backcourt depth: foul trouble. It's a lot easier for opposing teams to draw fouls from an interior defender than a perimeter defender.

Which is why the reason that next year's UNC team will not be an elite team is they will be a poor defensive team. Their frontcourt will have to be wary of foul trouble and their perimeter players are freshmen, sophomores who haven't played that much, or players who have not shown a predilection for bearing down on the defensive side of the court.

I agree with that, assuming that UNC doesn't find a last-minute recruit that is a decent third big. However, I'll say a couple of things:

1. There is always the chance that they find a last-minute recruit to be an adequate third big, which would alleviate some of the foul concerns.
2. One of the knocks on Williams is that he is too liberal with the use of his bench (basically the opposite of Coach K). If he has bodies, they'll play, even if it means fewer minutes for the better players. By removing the Wears from the equation, he'll have to go with his two big guys for extended minutes.

Point #2 may mean that UNC is that much more likely to win games in which Henson/Zeller don't get in foul trouble. Of course, your point stands that they are that much less likely to win games in which those two do get in foul trouble.

And of course, any frontcourt injuries would be devastating to them.

SCMatt33
05-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Not only that, but the lack of frontcourt depth will make it tough for Roy to run his preferred run-and-gun style. You can't ask two big guys to sprint back and forth across the floor for an entire game. So does Roy slow things down in order to limit the number of possessions (as we did this year)? Or does he have Barnes play extended minutes at the 4? If Zeller and Henson play 30 minutes each (which is a lot), then that leaves 20 minutes for Barnes to play the 4. And 10 of those minutes will be with Henson at the 5.

There are plenty of teams in college who play without much size (Purdue comes to mind) and without much depth (Butler?)... we're just unaccustomed to seeing it at Carolina.

I actually think that the opposite is true. It will be much easier for Roy to run his fast-paced system with this lineup. Presumably, he will play a smaller lineup at least some of the time. As you said, you could see Barnes at the 4 for up to half of the game. With this lineup, the last thing Roy would want is to slow the game down. With that lineup, they will have a speed advantage on most teams despite being undersized (especially in the bulk part of size). A slow game would become more of a physical contest, which UNC would lose almost every time.

Look at Duke '08 for an example. Duke basically had 3 big guys, two of which were undersized in the bulk department. Could you imagine that team trying to play a slowdown type of game. It wouldn't have worked. Ultimately, that team didn't have the right blend of skills to keep it up into the tourney. I actually think the Duke '08 team might be a good comparison team. Both will have a center who hasn't shown his potential because of injuries. Both have a star freshman who may be forced to play out of position at the 4. Both have a starting pg who has struggled in the past backed up by a freshman. Both have a slashing type 2-guard. Both have a 6-6 forward who could steal minutes at the 4 if he has to and both have a pf who is too thin and may have to play some center. There are a few differences. UNC will have some of these guys be more offensive and perimeter oriented compared to their Duke counterparts (Graves/Henson) compared to (McClure/Thomas). Having the more offensive oriented guys might actually help in this type of system. Both teams have only one senior, but Duke's (Nelson) played a position that was easier to be a leader on the court from than UNC's (Graves). Almost forgot, both lost an underachieving, highly rated F/C to the draft. I know a couple of comparisons aren't quite perfect, but considering all of the circumstances, this might be a good bar for which to compare next year's UNC team. Duke was 11/13 in the preseason polls, and I wouldn't be surprised to see UNC start the year out in a similar position.

BD80
05-06-2010, 01:35 PM
(couldn't help stealing that Bushism)

I find myself actually wishing the Heels a better season next year than this season.

I hope they actually WIN the NIT next year!!

With the NCAA field expanding by 3, I am sure the heels will have a higher seed in the NIT next year.


Recruiting better players will not always translate into actually landing better players.

Better players does not mean better people ...


Has anyone else seen the twitter chatter after this? Henson and a few others were really talking badly about the Wears... saying they were glad they were gone because now they could get some real players, saying they left because they couldn't find a place to park their pickup truck, saying they couldn't tell them apart anyway... Deon actually twittered at the other guys to knock it off, it wasn't funny.

Check out The Devils Den or even Inside Carolina for some pretty long posts about it.

The chemistry on that team is just abysmal, and I don't know if the Wears were part of the problem, or are leaving because of it.

This is the truly encouraging part of the saga ... It sounds like there is something still rotten on the hill. The guys that are left (Deon - apparently the voice of reason in the locker room is leaving) are into "talent," which means they consider themselves to have "talent" and to be above those whom they consider to have "less talent." Sounds like this is a team of individuals who are looking out for their draft prospectus.

Should be fun for ol' roy to get this group to play together, or to listen to him talk about sacrifice for the team.

chrisheery
05-06-2010, 01:37 PM
If UNC is the second best team in the ACC next year, it is only because the rest of the ACC is not good. This team, at least on paper, should be not very good. Yes, Barnes and Henson are tough to guard, but who will they guard? Barnes is a good rebounder, but you can't really expect him to rebound with 6'10 and 6'11 guys at the same rate. Carolina still has the same issue at PG they had last year. They want to run, but their PG can't do it effectively. For LD II, it is because of decision making. For Marshall, at least from what we have all heard, he just isn't a fast, push the ball type of PG. They get a major upgrade in talent on the wing, but they lose a ton in rebounding and post presence. I don't see why everyone thinks they will be much much better next year. I think they will be better, top half of the ACC, but certainly not a team I would expect to beat us. Anything can happen in a given game, but if I were betting, I'd bet heavily on Duke to win in both Cameron and Dean Dome by >10 points.

MChambers
05-06-2010, 01:38 PM
1. Team chemistry was a big "cloud" over them this past year that was repeated over and over. Seems that a few of the rumored reasons now may be gone in Davis, Thompson and the Wears. To what extent each affected team chemistry is debatable but it appears some combo of those four contributed to it.


I agree with all of your post, but just wanted to add Ginyard as a player who may have contributed to chemistry problems and is now gone.

chrisheery
05-06-2010, 01:42 PM
Also, what is Henson's problem? That is a really inappropriate thing to say about a teammate past, present or future. Its even worse to say it on a public forum. Is Roy Williams really ok with this? I can't imagine he would be.

I don't mean to insult Josh McRoberts, but is it possible that Henson is causing the problems that everyone said Josh caused for us? Bad attitude, stand-offish and leading to issues with recruiting and team chemistry? Just a thought.

ChicagoCrazy84
05-06-2010, 01:42 PM
We've been in this position with transfers, but I don't think any were of this significance, do you guys agree? I think maybe when Chris Burgess transferred to Utah leaving Brand? Boozer? I don't remember exactly, but I digress.

I think this is huge for them in a very negative way. Henson is solid and so is Zeller, but they have no depth and with Zeller's propensity to get injured, they could be in real trouble. It's possible that they can snag a big guy late sometime this summer, but I don't know who is left on the board that they would want to give a scholly to. Anyone know?

I feel badly for them a little, they get a huge commitment from Barnes and it is almost going to waste now because of this. They'll still probably get to the tournament, but with an early exit. Long live Duke's dominance!!

airowe
05-06-2010, 01:43 PM
Now there is rumor that UNC might take a look at Kadeem Jack. He's a mobile power forward or even center in a pinch. He was a late bloomer, who can run the floor and rebound despite being thin. Supposedly he was thinking of going prep so that he could maybe catch some offers from elite programs. UNC might be exactly what he's looking for without having to prep a year.

If they pick up this kid, and get to use the other Wear scholarship next year... that will possibly be more than a little annoying.

God forbid they should get Terrance Jones somehow, the Jacks kid would be bad enough.

They ain't getting Jack.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-05-06/sports/sfl-kadeem-jack-prep-school0505_1_prep-school-durand-scott-dwayne-collins

ncexnyc
05-06-2010, 01:53 PM
So Zeller is injury prone, couldn't the same thing have been said about Brian?
HB is the real deal and will be a major impact player for UNC. The only reason his ability is suddenly downplayed/questioned is because he decided to go to UNC instead of Duke. Henson is an extremely talented big, who made major strides once shifted to his natural position. The PG's will be solid, but as others have pointed out not really suited to Roy's style. The rest of the team has talent and the only question will be can they gel as a unit.

Frontcourt depth could be a problem, but then that was also said about our backcourt last year. Hanstravel managed to avoid foul trouble throughout his career and in Roy's system, which doesn't stress defense, their bigs should have little trouble avoiding fouls.

Will they challenge us? No, but they definitely won't stink up the court like they did last year.

I also wish Travis and David the best of luck and hope things workout for them.

Duvall
05-06-2010, 01:59 PM
They ain't getting Jack.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-05-06/sports/sfl-kadeem-jack-prep-school0505_1_prep-school-durand-scott-dwayne-collins

There's nothing stopping from changing his mind, though, is there?

Not sure a 6-9 210-lb. guy is what they need, though.

alteran
05-06-2010, 01:59 PM
Also, what is Henson's problem? That is a really inappropriate thing to say about a teammate past, present or future. Its even worse to say it on a public forum. Is Roy Williams really ok with this? I can't imagine he would be.

I don't mean to insult Josh McRoberts, but is it possible that Henson is causing the problems that everyone said Josh caused for us? Bad attitude, stand-offish and leading to issues with recruiting and team chemistry? Just a thought.

I apologize for repeating what I said in another thread, but it looks to me like this announcement was a surprise to everyone on the UNC team and they found out like we did-- friends, bulletin boards, and the news. A few not-so-ebullient "good lucks" and some catty remarks seem kind of par for the course in that situation.

But I like how you think. :D

3rd Dukie
05-06-2010, 02:01 PM
while most of the discussion and speculation in this thread has been, understandably, about the remaining talent at UNC, this transfer might be a symptom of a greater problem. Also, there seems to be at least some acceptance that the team might be better off now and that Williams wanted them to leave. If Williams has the sense that God gives a goat, he cannot like the timing here.

I look at this situation from a different perspective. From what I have read and heard, the Wear twins, talent aside, come from a pretty solid family background. Maybe the true significance of this event is that the Wears, including the Dad, are tired of Roy. What if this is indicative of further underlying tumult and chaos within the program? I have NO inside information and don't claim to, but I just get a feeling that things are worse in Hole Land than we might see. When allegedly good solid kids and their parents don't want to be associated with the program, my ears perk up.

Just my .02.

budwom
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
I think it's fair to say their success next year will be heavily dependent upon two things (since I agree they have a lot of talent):
1) no key injuries
2) ability of Marshall to run the offense. If he isn't a considerable improvement over DrooToo, they'll be in trouble. If he is, they could be very good, barring injury.

chrisheery
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Who downgraded Barnes? The point is that he isn't going to be enough to overcome their deficits.

Essentially the comparison is this:

Bullock compared to Ginyard (improvement, probably)
Barnes compared to Graves (improvement certainly)
Henson compared to Davis (I'd take Davis to play the 4)
Zeller compared to Thompson (even)

But, then you lose Zeller off the bench and Henson off the bench. So, now you have no backup. So, to say that they are clearly better is odd to me. I just don't see how. Their starting unit may be better on balance, but who is going to rebound if they are going to take advantage of their speed at each position? There is a reason that basketball has evolved to have 2 larger guys on the court on most teams to focus on rebounding. It works to space the court and keep defenses honest. Just not sure Carolina will be able to do that.

NYDukie
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
I agree with all of your post, but just wanted to add Ginyard as a player who may have contributed to chemistry problems and is now gone.

How could I forgot, the creme de le creme...LOL Thanks for the reminder! Just goes to show what type of impact Ginyard had on me.....NONE!!!!

chrisheery
05-06-2010, 02:06 PM
I look at this situation from a different perspective. From what I have read and heard, the Wear twins, talent aside, come from a pretty solid family background. Maybe the true significance of this event is that the Wears, including the Dad, are tired of Roy. What if this is indicative of further underlying tumult and chaos within the program? I have NO inside information and don't claim to, but I just get a feeling that things are worse in Hole Land than we might see. When allegedly good solid kids and their parents don't want to be associated with the program, my ears perk up.

Just my .02.

I agree with this. It seems to me that these were pretty good guys, hard workers, who wanted to be part of a great team. Instead, they appear to have been alienated and left when neither their teammates nor their coaches gave them any respect. On one hand, the players are the issue, but on the other hand, why has Roy not put an end to tweeting about teammates and the team in anything other than a good light?

Meaning, it was not the Wears who were making a problem with chemistry, it was the Wears who took the brunt of the problems created by poor chemistry.

Like 3rd Dukie, I am just speculating, but it just feels this way more than the other. Kinda reminds me of how Jason Williams felt playing for the Baby Bulls. He said they were so unprofessional and talked crap to him about being a goodie-two-shoes.

airowe
05-06-2010, 02:10 PM
There's nothing stopping from changing his mind, though, is there?

Not sure a 6-9 210-lb. guy is what they need, though.

You don't just go to prep school for no reason...

alteran
05-06-2010, 02:10 PM
I look at this situation from a different perspective. From what I have read and heard, the Wear twins, talent aside, come from a pretty solid family background. Maybe the true significance of this event is that the Wears, including the Dad, are tired of Roy. What if this is indicative of further underlying tumult and chaos within the program? I have NO inside information and don't claim to, but I just get a feeling that things are worse in Hole Land than we might see. When allegedly good solid kids and their parents don't want to be associated with the program, my ears perk up.

Wow. I REALLY like how you think. :D

I would imagine Roy's dramedy act had to be wearing a little thin to parents of the players, as he kept passive-aggressively (and sometimes not so passively) throwing them under the bus.

Doing some tea-leaf reading, this announcement seems to lack the smooth arc of a frictionless transfer. There may be quite a bit to what you are saying.

Still, I'm trying not to kid myself. Whatever UNC's current problems, Roy's won two titles, and good kids are going to play for him.

I'm going to enjoy the ride, however long it lasts.

dchen09
05-06-2010, 02:12 PM
Hi all, I've been reading this forum alot for awhile though this is my first time posting.

I thought the 11' UNC team is a little like West Virginia last year, little post depth but alot of length and size on the perimeter. A lineup of Marshall, Bullocks, Graves, Barnes and Henson/Zeller would give them alot of length/size. What do you all think?

sandinmyshoes
05-06-2010, 02:13 PM
There's nothing stopping from changing his mind, though, is there?

Not sure a 6-9 210-lb. guy is what they need, though.

Does make me curious what the NCAA rules are for preps, and prep commits changing their minds.

As for the 6-9 210... with Henson, Zeller and this Jack kid, UNC would look like a grandaddy-longleg tournament.

airowe
05-06-2010, 02:19 PM
Does make me curious what the NCAA rules are for preps, and prep commits changing their minds.

As for the 6-9 210... with Henson, Zeller and this Jack kid, UNC would look like a grandaddy-longleg tournament.

JAck has only been playing organized basketball for three years. If roy can find a way to get him qualified, they can have him. But I don't think he can, nor would he waste a scholarship on a project...

chrisheery
05-06-2010, 02:21 PM
Hi all, I've been reading this forum alot for awhile though this is my first time posting.

I thought the 11' UNC team is a little like West Virginia last year, little post depth but alot of length and size on the perimeter. A lineup of Marshall, Bullocks, Graves, Barnes and Henson/Zeller would give them alot of length/size. What do you all think?

I think they are coached by completely different coaches. Huggins is the type of coach that preaches defense first and can take a team of talented kids like that and teach them to give of themselves for the team. He teaches toughness and aggressiveness. I don't like some of the things he does off the court, but he is a tremendous coach.

On the other hand, Roy is sort of a "beautiful game" kind of coach. Like Brazil or Argentina in soccer (futbol). When you have all the best players at every position, it is the most amazing thing to watch. When you don't, it isn't so beautiful.

I have a hard time believing he is going to get the same sort of toughness out of a bunch of guys who acted like prima donnas this year plus three highly touted recruits, one of whom has a stated goal of being national player of the year and being number 1 in the NBA draft.

UrinalCake
05-06-2010, 02:22 PM
I actually think that the opposite is true. It will be much easier for Roy to run his fast-paced system with this lineup.

Interesting analysis and I agree that when Barnes is at the 4 they would like to run and play a 4-out type of offense. But they'll still need to pay attention to fatigue with their big guys. I guess Zeller and Henson will have to find a way to pace themselves throughout the game, much like Scheyer and Smith did for us, but it seems harder for an interior player to do that. I liked your comparison to Duke in 2006.

sandinmyshoes
05-06-2010, 02:23 PM
JAck has only been playing organized basketball for three years. If roy can find a way to get him qualified, they can have him. But I don't think he can, nor would he waste a scholarship on a project...

My UNC friends are now claiming that Williams has already called Jack and that there is mutual interest. Still, better him than UNC making a run at Terrance Jones. As for being qualified, my understanding is that Jack is already qualified.

DukieInBrasil
05-06-2010, 02:24 PM
I actually think that the opposite is true. It will be much easier for Roy to run his fast-paced system with this lineup. Presumably, he will play a smaller lineup at least some of the time. As you said, you could see Barnes at the 4 for up to half of the game. With this lineup, the last thing Roy would want is to slow the game down. With that lineup, they will have a speed advantage on most teams despite being undersized (especially in the bulk part of size). A slow game would become more of a physical contest, which UNC would lose almost every time.

Look at Duke '08 for an example. Duke basically had 3 big guys, two of which were undersized in the bulk department. Could you imagine that team trying to play a slowdown type of game. It wouldn't have worked. Ultimately, that team didn't have the right blend of skills to keep it up into the tourney. I actually think the Duke '08 team might be a good comparison team. Both will have a center who hasn't shown his potential because of injuries. Both have a star freshman who may be forced to play out of position at the 4. Both have a starting pg who has struggled in the past backed up by a freshman. Both have a slashing type 2-guard. Both have a 6-6 forward who could steal minutes at the 4 if he has to and both have a pf who is too thin and may have to play some center. There are a few differences. UNC will have some of these guys be more offensive and perimeter oriented compared to their Duke counterparts (Graves/Henson) compared to (McClure/Thomas). Having the more offensive oriented guys might actually help in this type of system. Both teams have only one senior, but Duke's (Nelson) played a position that was easier to be a leader on the court from than UNC's (Graves). Almost forgot, both lost an underachieving, highly rated F/C to the draft. I know a couple of comparisons aren't quite perfect, but considering all of the circumstances, this might be a good bar for which to compare next year's UNC team. Duke was 11/13 in the preseason polls, and I wouldn't be surprised to see UNC start the year out in a similar position.

Interesting analysis, though I would say Drew is a better PG than Paulus was (Paulus would have been a better 2G). I agree that having a more offense-minded club to start with might be a plus for them over the D oriented '08 squad. You mentioned it briefly but perhaps the biggest difference between these iterations is leadership. 2010-11 UNC won't have any and '08 Duke had a very good (reg. season at least) leader in Demarcus Nelson.

airowe
05-06-2010, 02:31 PM
My UNC friends are now claiming that Williams has already called Jack and that there is mutual interest. Still, better him than UNC making a run at Terrance Jones. As for being qualified, my understanding is that Jack is already qualified.

At UCONN and Arizona maybe...

sagegrouse
05-06-2010, 02:31 PM
I have long-accused posters here of looking for the dark cloud when there is already a silver lining. (The best example is the poster who wrote about Ted Roof: "I am afraid that if he has a winning season, some bigger program will come and hire him." As if that were the worst possible outcome.)

But along the same lines, I think UNC could be more dangerous next year without the Wear twins. I have always found Ol' Roy's substitution pattern to be helter-skelter and confusing. And I thought, at least in 2010, the team was confused as well. With depth approximating Duke this year (although guards instead of big men), UNC will have a predictable rotation, be more disciplined, and just possibly may play quite a bit better.

That's the cloud, but the silver lining has not disappeared.

Either Barnes or Graves will play the 4 one-half the time. This assumes that Zeller and Henson average 30 minutes a game, and one is always on the court. Then, one-half the time UNC will play a lineup of Zeller or Henson plus Barnes or Graves plus three guards. Now mind you, Zeller and Henson averaged 17.4 and 15.8 MPG respectively in 2010. And Zeller has been injured every year. So Barnes could have more minutes at the 4 than at the 3.

Other observations:


Looks like Ol' Roy is gonna get to prove he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

It also looks like each UNC guard will have ample to time on the court to display his abilities and inabilities.

I hope Wojo, Collins, and Nate are already working on plays to draw fouls on Henson and Zeller.


sagegrouse

MChambers
05-06-2010, 02:42 PM
“We are extremely disappointed that David and Travis are leaving the program,” says Williams. “I love both kids and they would have been very important parts of our team next season. It is a significant blow to our team as we had four post players and now we are down to two. They are quality kids and will be quality players.
“Their father called me last night and asked for their release, which came as a complete surprise. I met with both kids in mid-April for our typical end-of-year meetings and together we worked on their development plans for next season. Both David and Travis seemed to be excited about their futures at North Carolina.

“Our coaching staff will look at at whatever options are available but it’s hard to replace two quality players at this time."

Seems like one more case of Roy saying a lot more than he needs to. Does he really need to point out that the team is now down to 4 posts? Does he need to say it came as a complete surprise?

Rhetorical questions.

Dukeface88
05-06-2010, 02:48 PM
"Roy Williams."

You say that like it's a good thing.

BD80
05-06-2010, 02:54 PM
My UNC friends are now claiming that Williams has already called Jack and ... my understanding is that Jack is already qualified.


At UCONN and Arizona maybe...

And, of course, UK.

Wait, what is the cut-off to be "qualified" for a Cal coached program? 20 ppg?


... UNC will ... be more disciplined ...

Really?


...I hope Wojo, Collins, and Nate are already working on plays to draw fouls on Henson and Zeller.

sagegrouse

Why? Do you see either playing defense?

MChambers
05-06-2010, 03:05 PM
Other observations:


Looks like Ol' Roy is gonna get to prove he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

It also looks like each UNC guard will have ample to time on the court to display his abilities and inabilities.

I hope Wojo, Collins, and Nate are already working on plays to draw fouls on Henson and Zeller.


sagegrouse

Will Graves won't need to slim down in the off-season, because he will need those pounds to play in the post.

CLT Devil
05-06-2010, 03:08 PM
In that statement right there you see the difference between K and Roy. Prove me wrong, but K has never had an ill word about someone transferring, or even commented on it beyond calling him a good kid and wishing him the best. Roy just alkways seems to say a little more than he needs to. Down to only 2 players in the post? Is that a pre-emptive excuse for next year?

I agree that the main blow to UNC here is the ability to stop a team with a driving PG (Irving!!), as Henson is their lone shot blocker and foul trouble will be huge for them. When we play we will have the luxury of dictating the pace based on their personnel. If Hensen or Zeller go out we can out in the Plumlee Power Duo and loom over them. As you can tell I really really like to beat UNC, and like to crush them like we did last year every time we play.

A lot has also been revealed with how the other players are publicly (tweeting at least) trashing the two brothers. Can't help but think that was an unhealthy environment last year. I thought some of those were gone in Deon, Davis and Ginyard but what's being said today has made me change my mind. K has always been good at building a 'team' and with the exception of McRoberts rarely have we had a cancerous player. UNC has had quite a few this decade....another testament to K and his ability to read a kid.

I think this whole subject has been beaten to death, talking about another team losing two role players while we're fresh off a Natty Championship year, but it does give me great pleasure to see Tarholes squirm, and the last 8 months or so have been phenominal.

SharkD
05-06-2010, 03:10 PM
http://imgur.com/X3fJB.jpg

Something is Rotten in the State of Carolina Basketball

—or—

Alas, poor Tyler—I knew him, Harrison. A fellow of infinite travels, of most muppet-like expression; he hath borne my team on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! My gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know not how oft. Where be your gibes now?

sagegrouse
05-06-2010, 04:12 PM
Why would the Wears transfer from what seems to be a good situation? Two big men left (Davis and Thompson). Roy plays a lot of players; ergo, a lot of minutes. There is no evidence of academic or personal issues.

1. Maybe they hate the program or the coaches or their teammates.

2. Maybe they don't think they can play at this level -- at least not for awhile -- and are going someplace where minutes are more predictable.

It will be interesting if the two transfer to the same school. I think each could be hurting the development of the other. It will also be instructive to see who recruits them.

sagegrouse

Duvall
05-06-2010, 04:15 PM
Why would the Wears transfer from what seems to be a good situation?

California kids transfer. It's just what they do. Doesn't have to mean anything.

Lennies
05-06-2010, 04:21 PM
They are going to have to put Henson on the Jay Bilas Steroid Drip (http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bilas_cropped-150x150.jpg)™.

mattman91
05-06-2010, 04:29 PM
well last year duke won the natty with only 3 guards.....one of which was supposed to be a sr in high school...so maybe carolian can win it with 2 big men???? naaaaaaaaaaaa lol.

Does anyone know Henson's weight as of now? has he past andre yet? lol

Zeller has already had injury issues, and henson being so small....well he could easily get hurt, especially since he will actually be playin in the paint this year.

great news, for now.

this can only make UNC better for the future.

amat1129
05-06-2010, 04:39 PM
I really think they will end up at ucla, howland is in somewhat of a hot seat after last year and landing two big kids who were highly ranked recruits could be a big help for the program. I also see them fitting in to the ucla system much better than the unc system

BattierBattalion
05-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Hey, guys, I know there's been a lot of theorizing about motives involved, but what if the twins are simply homesick.

greybeard
05-06-2010, 05:11 PM
Why would the Wears transfer from what seems to be a good situation? Two big men left (Davis and Thompson). Roy plays a lot of players; ergo, a lot of minutes. There is no evidence of academic or personal issues.

1. Maybe they hate the program or the coaches or their teammates.

2. Maybe they don't think they can play at this level -- at least not for awhile -- and are going someplace where minutes are more predictable.

It will be interesting if the two transfer to the same school. I think each could be hurting the development of the other. It will also be instructive to see who recruits them.

sagegrouse

Dawkins is my bet. Stanford has a tradition of recruiting California twins, the Collinses and Lopezs. The Wears can play. Carolina lost a ton last year and, especially after Davis went down, the team collapsed. I think that they will go somewhere together.

The interesting thing is that, at least through the middle of the season, I was thinking some of the same things about another set of brothers at another ACC school. I do not think that the third Plumlee brother will be at Duke absent a complete turnaround in how his older brothers are used--how much the offensive game is actually geared to giving them good chances with the ball.

I do not think that either Miles or Mason was anywhere near happy with how they were being utilized and only came to a place of acceptance with it late in the season and largely because of one man, and that wasn't K, it was Brian Zoubek. But for Zoubek's incredible emergence, and his big-brother reach-back, particularly to Miles to bring him along (was I the only one who saw Brian head for Miles during almost every time out) I think that the season might have turned out very differently and that maybe a conversation like this one was being had much closer to home.

The rigors of big time schedules and the BIG BUCKS that they bring puts so much pressure on programs, especially on draws like Carolina and Duke, to perform against steller programs a couple of times a week for the entire season. There is no chance to air out young kids, let them literally play the game without the worry of mistakes that will cost, with getting yanked, with disappointing teammates and fans.

I think that this is a terrible price to pay for the riches that ESPN brings in, and that it is beyond unacceptible that the ones who are being made to pay the price are young recruits who simply should not be subjected to the pressures that the out-of-conference schedules these days bring.

This, however, is the reality of big time ball, and there is little that anyone can do about it. The closest I've seen anyone come was K during the week leading up to the Georgetown game--he continually spoke about wanting his guys to approach the game as one in which to have fun, to be loose and just play. They really didn't do that. On the other hand, they were all as fresh as could be for K's real target that week, which was to make a point against GT after the literal beat down they threw at Duke earlier that season.

Transfers in light of these pressures will be all the more prevalent, even while in my mind they are terribly regrettable. How can it be that players who are not quite ready for the fires of big, big time competition just yet because they are too young and are just adjusting to college get thrown into the crucible and then here it from fans, the press, and the intrateam pressures that losing can bring? For money?

You guys, present company excluded here Sage, I know that this is not you and many others here, can take glee in the fact that the Weirs packed their bags. Me, the whole damn thing just makes me angry, if it wasn't so damn sorrowful.

MChambers
05-06-2010, 05:28 PM
The interesting thing is that, at least through the middle of the season, I was thinking some of the same things about another set of brothers at another ACC school. I do not think that the third Plumlee brother will be at Duke absent a complete turnaround in how his older brothers are used--how much the offensive game is actually geared to giving them good chances with the ball.

I do not think that either Miles or Mason was anywhere near happy with how they were being utilized and only came to a place of acceptance with it late in the season and largely because of one man, and that wasn't K, it was Brian Zoubek. But for Zoubek's incredible emergence, and his big-brother reach-back, particularly to Miles to bring him along (was I the only one who saw Brian head for Miles during almost every time out) I think that the season might have turned out very differently and that maybe a conversation like this one was being had much closer to home.

The rigors of big time schedules and the BIG BUCKS that they bring puts so much pressure on programs, especially on draws like Carolina and Duke, to perform against steller programs a couple of times a week for the entire season. There is no chance to air out young kids, let them literally play the game without the worry of mistakes that will cost, with getting yanked, with disappointing teammates and fans.

I think that this is a terrible price to pay for the riches that ESPN brings in, and that it is beyond unacceptible that the ones who are being made to pay the price are young recruits who simply should not be subjected to the pressures that the out-of-conference schedules these days bring.

This, however, is the reality of big time ball, and there is little that anyone can do about it. The closest I've seen anyone come was K during the week leading up to the Georgetown game--he continually spoke about wanting his guys to approach the game as one in which to have fun, to be loose and just play. They really didn't do that. On the other hand, they were all as fresh as could be for K's real target that week, which was to make a point against GT after the literal beat down they threw at Duke earlier that season.

Transfers in light of these pressures will be all the more prevalent, even while in my mind they are terribly regrettable. How can it be that players who are not quite ready for the fires of big, big time competition just yet because they are too young and are just adjusting to college get thrown into the crucible and then here it from fans, the press, and the intrateam pressures that losing can bring? For money?

You guys, present company excluded here Sage, I know that this is not you and many others here, can take glee in the fact that the Weirs packed their bags. Me, the whole damn thing just makes me angry, if it wasn't so damn sorrowful.

Although I often think your theories are pretty darned interesting and frequently dead on, I don't think any Plumlee unhappiness had to do with how they were used on offense. I suspect that if they were frustrated, it was more because they weren't as effective as they wanted to be.

I agree with you that it is sad that the Wears are transferring, but we don't know why they are choosing to do this. Could be homesickness. From the tweets, I'm guessing maybe they didn't like their teammates all that much, but that's just a crazy guess.

I agree with you that the amount of pressure is ridiculous, however.

ACCBBallFan
05-06-2010, 05:43 PM
Hey, guys, I know there's been a lot of theorizing about motives involved, but what if the twins are simply homesick.
My guess is that David Wear found out his hip injury is going to require him to sit out a year and his twin decided they woul play three more years together.

So if ever there was a good time to x-fer it is now and to somewhere on left coast, probably UCLA who has had its share of x-fers too, but maybe Stanford or Zona too.