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ugadevil
05-22-2007, 11:35 AM
i was wondering what the braves baseball fans around here were thinking about possible free agents and where the club might go at the end of the season. personally, i'm not a huge andruw jones fan and don't know if they are going to make a big push to bring him back.
so, if they don't bring him back...how would anyone feel about the braves going after a big-time first baseman who can replace andruw's power? i like the idea of atlanta going and getting mark teixeira from the Rangers. he's due to be out of his contract in 2008 so the rangers might be looking to deal him. he's got some background w/ atlanta b/c he played at gt. i know the braves have thorman but they don't seem to be too committed to that.
still, that leaves a hole in center field if jones is gone. i like the idea of juan pierre out in center for the braves. i know he's not the gold glover that andruw is, but he's a solid hitter who can steal some bases and make some things happen in the lineup. i have no idea what his contract status is, but i like the idea of a lineup w/ juan pierre, kelly johnson, teixeira, jones, francoeur. any thoughts?

feldspar
05-22-2007, 12:05 PM
Eh. Pierre is lightning fast, but I'm not in love with his defense. That would be a major drop off considering how good Andruw is in centerfield.

I'd love to see the Braves dump Mike Hampton's contract somehow and go after a first baseman like Teixiera or Adrian Gonzalez.

CMS2478
05-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Eh. Pierre is lightning fast, but I'm not in love with his defense. That would be a major drop off considering how good Andruw is in centerfield.

I'd love to see the Braves dump Mike Hampton's contract somehow and go after a first baseman like Teixiera or Adrian Gonzalez.

I agree with you 100% that we need to dump Hampton. He hasn't been healthy in what 3 or 4 years and even when he is healthy he is mediocre. I have said for years we need a power-hitting 1B and if we get rid of Hampton and I feel confident Andruw is gone, then we should be able to afford one. Center field will have to be the hole to fill and I think we need someone fast and someone that has a high on-base-%, although I can't really think of any CF that meet that criteria, excepte Pierre........:confused: and I'm too lazy to look it up.

riverside6
05-22-2007, 12:32 PM
As a Cub fan who watched Pierre all last season, he isn't the answer. His adjusted OBP is truly pathetic. Basically his OBP is really low as is ~340 or ~350 at its best and throw in to that another 20 times getting caught stealing a year and he really isn't on base much. Also, his arm is weak, and that would make a difference in spacious Turner Field.

Duvall
05-22-2007, 12:48 PM
Get rid of Hampton how, exactly?

Channing
05-22-2007, 01:02 PM
the problem with going after a first baseman is this:

I believe we just lockde up McCann for 6 years. Plus, we have Saltalamachia, a top prospect in all of baseball, filling spot duty right now. It seems logical that he will step in as the next first baseman since McCann is settled in behind the plate - unless he will be used as trade bait, which I dont see since he is SO highly regarded, and so cheap for the time being.

I think our big money neds to be spent on another pitcher. After Smoltz and Hudson the starting pitching has essentially been awful this year at worst, streaky at best.

Olympic Fan
05-22-2007, 01:09 PM
It's going to be interesting to see how much money the new Braves ownership is willing to put into the team. If they are willing to spend a reasonable amount, I'm confident that John Schuerholtz will put together a very competitive team.

They already start with a solid core of young players -- RF Franceour, C McCann and 2B Johnson are a great foundation. I also like Thorman's potential at first base, although I'm not as sure about him as the first three.

The key is how much more do you get from Chipper Jones and John Smoltz -- they're still star-quality players ... but both are getting old.

As for Andruw Jones ... I know he is off to a terrible start this season, but I would move heaven and earth to keep him. My reasons?

(1) He's the best defensive centerfielder of his generation of one of the best of all time.

(2) In his first 10 full seasons in the major leagues, he's averaged 33 home runs, 31 doubles, 101 RBIs, 98 runs scored with a .843 OPS.

(3) He just turned 30 years old in April ... he should have another 5-6 good years left. Normally, players' peak years run through age 32, then they show a gradual decline.

(4) His two previous seasons have been his best -- 92 home runs and 257 RBIs in 2005 and 2006.

Anybody can slump ... I simply can't believe that Jones has all of a sudden lost it at such an early age. It sometimes happens to pitchers, but barring injuries, it rarely happens to position players.

Jones has always been a streaky player. I'll be surprised if he doesn't bounce back and raise his numbers this season.

It's not my money, but I'd think that even if he doesn't finish with a vintage Andruw Jones year, he'd be worth gambling some big money to re-sign him.

Don't panic because he's had a bad month.

ugadevil
05-22-2007, 01:26 PM
i agree that pierre's defensive ability is a liability. however, i was suprised to see that in 162 games last year for the cubs he didn't have one error and that in his entire career, he's never had many errors. i know that just b/c you dont get charged w/ an error doesn't mean you're a great player in the field, but he might not be as bad as people think. if it's a fly ball, he can move out of the way and let franceour throw the guy out ;) pierre's also a career .300 hitter (althought it's dropping slightly) who will get you 50 stolen bases per year along w/ somewhere near 100 runs. i just think he could flourish w/ all the power that could be behind him in that lineup.
steven said something about getting a big-time pitcher. who do you have in mind? i like the direction of the bullpen and would prefer to see soriano take over the majority of the closing situations over wickman. i think soriano can come in to tight situations and strike someone out instead of depend on the ground ball. for a big starting pitcher, any possibility of getting justin verlander out of detroit?

feldspar
05-22-2007, 01:38 PM
steven said something about getting a big-time pitcher. who do you have in mind? i like the direction of the bullpen and would prefer to see soriano take over the majority of the closing situations over wickman. i think soriano can come in to tight situations and strike someone out instead of depend on the ground ball. for a big starting pitcher, any possibility of getting justin verlander out of detroit?
Agreed on Soriano, and FWIW, I have a feeling we're going to start seeing the bullpen going in that direction soon.

juise
05-22-2007, 01:52 PM
As a Dodger fan, I would be happy to pass along Juan Pierre to the Bravos. His offense has not been what we had hoped and his defense... well, it is what it is.
http://dodgerblues.com/images/pierre-anim.gif

feldspar
05-22-2007, 02:00 PM
His offense has not been what we had hoped

To be frank, what more were you hoping for?

He's right on par with his numbers for the last couple of years: 90ish runs, 1 or 2 HRs if you're lucky, 45ish RBI, .275 AVG, 50+ stolen bases.

juise
05-22-2007, 02:12 PM
Well, first of all, I did not think that signing him was a good move to begin with. And when I said he was not what I had hoped for, I was referring more to wanting a better performance out of the lead-off spot. I was not so much comparing him to the Juan Pierre of years past.

But, if you want to go there, I would say that his average is 21 points lower than last year and his OBP 24 points lower than it has ever been. Beyond that, he's nowhere near where he was in 2004 and 2005. I'm not saying that I was expecting such a performance, but I know what's possible for him. And with a decent line-up behind him, the Dodgers need more from their lead-off hitter.

Dukerati
05-22-2007, 03:13 PM
The hot rumor is that Andruw is going to the Nationals after this season. They have a ton of cap room and are looking for a player to build around... whether Andruw is that person or not is debatable.

As for what the Braves should do, I think they should:

1) Trade Andruw and Salty for prospects-- lots of good young pitching prospects (I look at our farm system and there are not a lot of good young arms. Moreover our top three starters (Smoltz, Hudson, and yes Hampton) are all old and/or injury-prone. For the long-term health and success of the club, we need to rejeuvanate our staff with some young studs. Maybe we could trade with Cincy for Homer Bailey? They get a star-to-be-catcher and we get a potential ace)

2) Sign a power first baseman AND a leadoff hitter. (Teixeria would be nice although he is extremely streaky which worries me. He also gets to hit in the jetstream park that is the Ranger's "stadium". I'd prefer Adrian who is probably cheaper and performs at Petco which is pitcher-friendly. The leadoff question is a much more difficult question to answer. I'd want a fast (watching Reyes tear us apart has given me a serious case of speed-envy), young CF who prides himself on defense-first with developing power. Someone like Felix Pie of the Cubs.)

Dukerati
05-22-2007, 03:33 PM
I missed Olympic Fan's post about reasons to keep Andruw originally and he definitely brings up some good points... but here is why I would trade him:

1) I don't know if anyone here reads Baseball Prospectus but they try to measure things like defense quantitatively and Andruw's defense has been slipping on their charts dramatically over the last year and a half. He may very well HAVE BEEN the greatest defensive CF of the last ten years but I do not think there is that much distinguishing Andruw with someone like Carlos Beltran at this point....

2) Andruw has no where to go but down. As great as Andruw has been, the projections for him were even higher. It's disheartening to see the low average year-after-year and undisciplined hitting to go along with it. Sure his power has spiked the last two years but so have his strikeouts and in both seasons, Andruw had hot streaks that counted for a significant portion of his HRs with prolonged slumps mixed in all too frequently.

3) What is going on with his swing this year? He drops his knee basically to the ground and swings wildly at the ball. Not only is it disturbingly ungraceful, it's very long and prone to inconsistency. After 10 years, you would think Andruw would have developed more as a hitter... I love Andruw, but I am terrified, TERRIFIED, when he is up to bat with a runner on third and less than two outs. All Braves fans know what I am talking about here. His proclivity towards strikeouts, weak grounders, and pop-ups is disheartening and I would rather have almost anyone else in our starting lineup bat in that crucial RBI situations. I should not feel this way about our 2nd best offensive player but I do.

4) Andruw is going to be very very expensive to sign. Can the Braves afford to tie up their limited budget with Andruw? Right now, he is a relative bargain. If we decide to resign him, we will almost certainly not be able to add any good free agents. Our farm system is not good enough to keep us at the top right now. A strong argument could be made towards signing a cheaper alternative such as Adrian Gonzalez and still having money left over to play around with.

Channing
05-22-2007, 09:04 PM
What about Willie Harris as the CF of the future if we dont keep Andruw. He is fast, looks to be a prototypical lead off guy, then maybe we can try and get another bat in LF. There tend to be more bats for the corner outfield spots anyway.

ugadevil
05-22-2007, 09:57 PM
well the timing for this discussion was great. i say the braves need a solid lead off hitter and a first baseman w/ power. so of course tonight the first baseman hits a home run and the lead off man gets a couple hits, one of which was a triple! what do i know?:)
maybe next we should talk about the questionable starting pitching at the back of the rotation?:D

Dukerati
05-23-2007, 09:09 AM
What about Willie Harris as the CF of the future if we dont keep Andruw. He is fast, looks to be a prototypical lead off guy, then maybe we can try and get another bat in LF. There tend to be more bats for the corner outfield spots anyway.

I hesitate to put the "future" tag on someone who is nearing thirty years of age, has five plus seasons of major league experience, and whose best season previously was a .262 batting average with an on-base percentage of .342. Not strong numbers for a future leadoff guy. In addition, speed doesn't necessarily correlate to good CF defense (see Juan Pierre).

As for Kelly Johnson, I see him as a vital part of our future but not as a leadoff guy. If you don't have speed (Kelly is fast but not leadoff fast) when you are in your young 20s, you will certainly not have speed as you age. He will grow into some increased power and I see him as a potentially great #2 or #5 hitter.

The back end of our rotation is HORRIBLE and there is NO way we can sweep the Mets:)

Olympic Fan
05-23-2007, 12:11 PM
Speed is the single most over-rated quality in a leadoff hitter, just as stolen base totals are the single most over-rated offensive stat in the game (even more than batting average).

Speed is extremely valuable on defense, but the key quality in a leadoff hitter is ability to reach base -- OBP.

Juan Pierre is much faster than Johnson ... so far this season, he has 16 stolen bases (and 5 caught stealing) to Johnson's four steals (and one caught stealing).

But Pierre also has a truely dreadful .296 OBP. He's scored 27 runs in 46 games.

(PS: Pierre is exactly the same age as Andruw Jones and has a significantly smaller range factor per nine innings -- 2.46<2.90 ... as for Jones slowing down in the outfield, his range per nine innings this year is the second-highest of his career, although he's usually in the 2.8 range ... Carlos Beltran? Well, he has an excellent 2.81 range per 9 innings -- excellent but less than Andruw ... Let's see -- Jim Edmonds, the SportsCenter highlight hero, has been at 2.50 the last two years and is an 2.32 this season ... Torri Hunter, the best defensive CF in the other league is the one who is fading -- after years close to 3.0 RF, he's been in the 2.5 range since 2004)

To get back to the leadoff hitter comparison, Johnson has a .390 OPB and has scored 33 runs in 44 games.

Now, Reyes is probably the best leadoff man in the league right now -- but so far this season he has a .396 OBP and has scored 37 runs in 43 games .... only slightly better than Johnson. (Four more runs in one less game is a good edge, but somewhat related to the Mets' better production behind him).

Believe me, the Braves have problems, but the leadoff man is not one of them. And even the prospect of replacing Thorman with a better first baseman should be pretty far down the list.

The Braves need immediate help at the back end of their rotation and (maybe it's a decade of instability) I'm still not 100 percent sold on the bullpen. Long-term, they do have to get younger in their starting rotation.

Those are FAR bigger problems that improving their leadoff hitter or upgrading at first base.

Dukerati
05-23-2007, 01:36 PM
Great point about speed vs. OBP Olympic Fan. I agree that OBP is a much more important factor than speed but that doesn't mean speed should not play a significant role in determining who your leadoff man is. If you look at the top leadoff men around the league, they are all very very fast. Runs are precious and the ability to score from first on a double should not be discounted. Ichiro, Grady Sizmore, Jose Reyes, Hanley Ramirez (before he got moved) were the first names that came to mind when I thought of what you want your leadoff guy to be.

As for the "problems" at first base and leadoff hitter, I again agree with Olympic Fan that the pitching is a far more pressing matter. However, my proposed solution (trading Andruw and Salty) opened up holes in the lineup that then needed to be addressed. If we could bolster/revamp our pitching staff without losing that power (i.e. spend more money) I would be all for it but I think that is unrealistic. If we lose Andruw, we are going to have a power gap, a gap that could be ameliorated by acquiring a big-time first baseman and moving Kelly down in the order IMO.

feldspar
05-23-2007, 02:37 PM
Perhaps a better way of saying it would be to say that speed without OBP is null. But, if you have OBP and speed, watch out. You're going to have a dangerous lineup. In that scenario, I don't think speed is overrated at all. You have to put runners in scoring position.

Olympic Fan
05-23-2007, 03:49 PM
Sure, if you could have everything, speed AND OBP is the ideal situation for a leadoff hitter -- that's why Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time. He was not only a great runner, but he had a career .401 OBP.

But of the two qualities, OBP is FAR more valuable for a lead off hitter. As for why so many teams have speedy leadoff hitters, I would argue that it's one of those innate myths (like having a bat handler batting second) that managers buy into. The very idea that anybody could use Pierre as a leadoff hitter is as ludicrous as the idea that for almost a decade, the Pirates used Omar Moreno -- an incredibly fast runner with a career OBP barely over .300 -- as a leadoff hitter. He "looked" like a leadoff hitter ... he just wasn't.

This is a sore subject for me as a Yankee fan (the Braves are amy second-favorite team). When I was a kid back in the early 1960s, I worshipped Mickey Mantle. I could never understand why he didn't drive in more runs.

Then I learned a little about baseball and understood what an idiot Ralph Houk was when it came to constructing a lineup. Take a look at the top of the order for the 1961 Yankees:

2B Bobby Richardson -- .295 OBP. He was the fastest guy on the team (other than Mantle) and a great defensive second baseman, but he couldn't get on base! He played in all 162 games, batting in front of two guys who combined to hit 115 home runs -- and he scored just 80 runs.

SS Tony Kubek -- .306 OBP. The classic "good bat handler in the second spot", he barely got on base more than Richardson. He scored the grand total of 84 runs batting ahead of Mantle and Maris.

RF Roger Maris -- .372 OPB. There was a lot of talk about how batting him in front of Mantle gave him a lot more opportunities to hit. He still walked 96 times -- he scored 132 runs.

CF Mickey Mantle -- .448 OBP! Okay, he walked a lot. He also scored 132 runs in 80 less plate appearances than Maris. It's not like you could pitch around him with Berra (.330 OBP, .466 SLG) Howard (.387 OBP, .549 SLG) and Skowron (.318 OBP, .472 SLG) at the bottom of the order.

That happened to Mantle a lot in his career -- one reason he only drove in 100 runs four times (his injuries had something to do with it, but he still played in at least 144 games 12 times -- Stengel and Houk's lineups cost him).

The best evidence I can find as to the impact a poorly constructed lineup can have on run production involves Rogers Hornsby in 1924. He battled .424 that year with a .507 OBP and a .696 SLG. It wasn't a short season either -- he played in 143 games and rapped out 227 hits, including 43 doubles, 14 triples and 25 home runs.

As near as I can figure, he battled third all season and drove in 94 runs. Can you believe that -- just 94 RBIs off 227 hits, including 83 extra base hits?

Dukerati
05-24-2007, 09:34 AM
How would you have constructed that lineup differently Olympic? If I remember correctly, the Maris and Mantle lineup scored a lot of runs that year... and what would have happened if you moved someone like Howard into the leadoff spot? I think it could be argued that a lineup like that could have created a black hole of outs in the bottom third of the lineup and then result in less RBIs for the men up top...

Part of baseball is maximizing the output from the "sluggers" which is why players with incredibly high OBPs (such as Bonds, Ortiz, etc) do not bat in the leadoff spot. In a sense, it would be a "waste" of extra-base hits as no one would be on base. For argument's sake, let's take this year's Yankees team. Using your argument, shouldn't Giambi bat leadoff? I mean, the man's OBP is consistently great every year and the Yankees certainly have the power to compensate...

Olympic Fan
05-24-2007, 11:33 AM
Interesting suggestion -- putting Giambi at the top of the lineup because of his high OBP. It's not as crazy as you imply -- the California Angels has great success a few years ago with catcher/DH Brian Downing as a leadoff hitter. At age 36, Downing had a .400 OBP and scored 110 runs in 155 games.

As a matter of fact, years before Bill James emerged, an MIT professor (I'm sorry I can't remember his name) crunched the numbers and argued that teams would score more runs if they shaped their rosters with in order of productivity -- with the most productive hitter to the least. He ws writing in the early 1960s and he argued that the Giants should bat Willie Mays first. So yes, Barry Bonds would be a far more effective leadoff hitter than a cleanup hitter -- especially during that period when nobody would pitch to him.

As for the current Yankees, Jeter is a perfect top of the order guy -- he has a .444 OBP this year with a career .390. Plus he brings good (if not great) speed.

Damon is a marginal leadoff guy. His .373 OBP this year is decent, although for his career, he's a mere .354 (pretty low for a leadoff guy).

As for the 1961 Yankees, you put your finger on the first solution -- Howard definitely should have been batting in one of the top two spots. I'd have flipped Mantle and Maris -- Mantle didn't walk 126 times because he didn't have anyone behind him ... he ALWAYS walked 120-plus times. He would have walked 120-plus times with Maris hitting behind him -- think of the RBI situation that would have set up for Maris. And with Berra/Skowron coming next, it's not like Maris would have gotten nothing to hit. He walked 90 times with Mantle behind him ... if that had gone up even as high as 120, that would have merely given the Yankees 30-plus more baserunners and created more opportunities for Berra and Skowron to drive in runs.

Houk didn't have a lot of choice with his other top of the order guy -- Boyer was virtually as poor OBP as Koubek (although better than Richardson). In hindsight, the big mistake was letting Gil McDougald go in the expansion draft. He was just 32 years old and he was a superb defender at three infield positions (to this day, the only man to start all-star games at short, second and third) and he had a career .356 OBP.

As for creating "a black hole" at the bottom of the order ... a few years ago, Bill James ran a study to measure whether a team was better off grouping its best offensive players together in the order or spreading them out evenly ... his conclusion was that it was BY FAR more productive to group the best hitters together, even if it led to "black holes" in the lineup.

So, in 20-20 hindsight, I'd argue that the 1961 Yankees should have had a lineup of:

SS Tony Koubek
C Elston Howard
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Roger Maris
1B Moose Skowron
LF Yogi Berra (note, since Skowron was a righthander and Yogi a lefty, I'd have flipped them depending on the starting pitcher).
3B Clete Boyer
2B Bobby Richardson

If they had been smart enough to keep McDougald, I'd have let him battle Boyer-Koubek-Richardson and whichever one he beat out, I'd bat him leadoff ... Mantle and Maris each would have driven in 150 runs and the 61 Yanks would have led the lead in runs scored.

As it was, the 1961 Yankees averaged just 5.07 runs a game, finishing behind the Detroit Tigers (5.16) in runs scored -- despite the 115 home runs by the M&M boys and the 20-plus from Howard, Berra, Skowron and Blanchard.

So they definitely could have done better!

CMS2478
05-24-2007, 12:17 PM
Interesting suggestion -- putting Giambi at the top of the lineup because of his high OBP. It's not as crazy as you imply -- the California Angels has great success a few years ago with catcher/DH Brian Downing as a leadoff hitter. At age 36, Downing had a .400 OBP and scored 110 runs in 155 games.

As a matter of fact, years before Bill James emerged, an MIT professor (I'm sorry I can't remember his name) crunched the numbers and argued that teams would score more runs if they shaped their rosters with in order of productivity -- with the most productive hitter to the least. He ws writing in the early 1960s and he argued that the Giants should bat Willie Mays first. So yes, Barry Bonds would be a far more effective leadoff hitter than a cleanup hitter -- especially during that period when nobody would pitch to him.

As for the current Yankees, Jeter is a perfect top of the order guy -- he has a .444 OBP this year with a career .390. Plus he brings good (if not great) speed.

Damon is a marginal leadoff guy. His .373 OBP this year is decent, although for his career, he's a mere .354 (pretty low for a leadoff guy).

As for the 1961 Yankees, you put your finger on the first solution -- Howard definitely should have been batting in one of the top two spots. I'd have flipped Mantle and Maris -- Mantle didn't walk 126 times because he didn't have anyone behind him ... he ALWAYS walked 120-plus times. He would have walked 120-plus times with Maris hitting behind him -- think of the RBI situation that would have set up for Maris. And with Berra/Skowron coming next, it's not like Maris would have gotten nothing to hit. He walked 90 times with Mantle behind him ... if that had gone up even as high as 120, that would have merely given the Yankees 30-plus more baserunners and created more opportunities for Berra and Skowron to drive in runs.

Houk didn't have a lot of choice with his other top of the order guy -- Boyer was virtually as poor OBP as Koubek (although better than Richardson). In hindsight, the big mistake was letting Gil McDougald go in the expansion draft. He was just 32 years old and he was a superb defender at three infield positions (to this day, the only man to start all-star games at short, second and third) and he had a career .356 OBP.

As for creating "a black hole" at the bottom of the order ... a few years ago, Bill James ran a study to measure whether a team was better off grouping its best offensive players together in the order or spreading them out evenly ... his conclusion was that it was BY FAR more productive to group the best hitters together, even if it led to "black holes" in the lineup.

So, in 20-20 hindsight, I'd argue that the 1961 Yankees should have had a lineup of:

SS Tony Koubek
C Elston Howard
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Roger Maris
1B Moose Skowron
LF Yogi Berra (note, since Skowron was a righthander and Yogi a lefty, I'd have flipped them depending on the starting pitcher).
3B Clete Boyer
2B Bobby Richardson

If they had been smart enough to keep McDougald, I'd have let him battle Boyer-Koubek-Richardson and whichever one he beat out, I'd bat him leadoff ... Mantle and Maris each would have driven in 150 runs and the 61 Yanks would have led the lead in runs scored.

As it was, the 1961 Yankees averaged just 5.07 runs a game, finishing behind the Detroit Tigers (5.16) in runs scored -- despite the 115 home runs by the M&M boys and the 20-plus from Howard, Berra, Skowron and Blanchard.

So they definitely could have done better!

I have suggested having Barry Bonds lead off many times. They would either have to pitch to him or lead off the game with a walk and like the Giants chances in either of those two scenarios. Sure he would miss out on some RBI opportunities, but if there are runners on they don't usually pitch to him anyway.

Dukerati
05-24-2007, 12:18 PM
I like your theory Olympic and hope you become a GM someday so I can see this theory in practice:) I do see some problems though. I agree with the clumping = more runs theory as does every other major league team as their 3-4-5 hitters are usually their best. However, you seem to be advocating that they should move up to 1-2-3 if their OBP is higher than the previous 1-2 combination. The problem is that "good" hitters are a decidedly finite resource and the potential for wasted RBI opportunities are enormous if the rest of the lineup is not up to snuff. What good is OBP if no one can drive them in? Where do you draw the line?

throatybeard
05-24-2007, 03:27 PM
I'm all for letting Andruw walk, but I don't understand why Salty should be traded. He seems like as close to an untouchable trade demand as the Braves have. I have trouble believing we'll get equal value if we trade him for an arm.

Dukerati
05-25-2007, 08:48 AM
The problem throaty is that the pitching is in a lot more trouble than our offense. We have multiple young stars in the field (Franceour, McCann, Johnson) but essentially none on the mound. We need some "untouchables" on the pitching side (this is what the Braves are founded on after all) and will probably have to give up a lot to get them... I love Salty but how are we going to get the arms otherwise?

CMS2478
05-25-2007, 09:14 AM
The problem throaty is that the pitching is in a lot more trouble than our offense. We have multiple young stars in the field (Franceour, McCann, Johnson) but essentially none on the mound. We need some "untouchables" on the pitching side (this is what the Braves are founded on after all) and will probably have to give up a lot to get them... I love Salty but how are we going to get the arms otherwise?

Well as a Braves fan I guess we will do what we always do the past 3 years or so..........wait til' next year when Hampton returns again and say that he will solidify our rotation and get us to the playoffs. :rolleyes:

Dukerati
05-25-2007, 09:31 AM
Haha, hopefully we make the playoffs this year... but if Hampton is a solid #3 and we win the world series next year, all will be forgiven in my book:)

Duvall
05-25-2007, 10:00 AM
Haha, hopefully we make the playoffs this year... but if Hampton is a solid #3 and we win the world series next year, all will be forgiven in my book:)

Mike Hampton's career is almost certainly over.

ugadevil
05-25-2007, 10:07 AM
i'll admit that i'm nowhere near a die hard braves fan. i go to school in the area so i take an interest and i pull for them, but i don't understand the fan support. i was at the game last night and there were TONS of empty seats. i think the crowd total ended up being something around 35,000, which was 15,000 more than when i went for the padres game a few weeks ago.

still....it was a game between the two best teams in the national league, featuring two possible hall of fame starters, and there were still entire sections of seats that were empty! this is a good young team in atlanta with a lot of home grown talent, and i just don't understand why they can't come even close to selling out a game. i know that atlanta is known as a horrible sports town, but i can tell you that plenty of those atlanta people will flock to athens for a uga football game or go to a falcons game. even if they're just fickle sports fans, now would be the time to go to a braves game since they're showing great improvement from last season and a serious shot at representing the national league in the world series.

however, i must say that there is always a great showing of college students at games. it's probably b/c the braves have to figured out how to market to us by offering buy one get one free tickets if you show your college id. my friend and i pay $6 each everytime we go to the game. great deal to see a great team. so where are the rest of the fans?

Dukerati
05-25-2007, 10:24 AM
i hear you ugadevil. I was listening to the post-game interview of John Smoltz and he made it a particular point to thank the "great" fans that always come out to the games and I privately snickered that the "great" fans could not even fill out the stadium during playoff time. The people who actually go to the games are great but for one of the consistently great teams in the modern era, the Braves have horrible fan support.

I live in the DC area but still manage to catch 5-15 games in Atlanta and another 5-10 here (when they play the Nationals). I remember the Braves had a promotion a few years ago (and I think it lasted all summer but I can't remember) where you could get into the game for one dollar for the bleacher seats at game time. One dollar! The sad part is that the Braves could actually use the money. We operate under a much tighter budget than we used to which in part is due to the lackluster attendance. It's a problem but one I really have no idea how to solve....

Dukerati
05-25-2007, 10:29 AM
Mike Hampton's career is almost certainly over.

I choose to keep the faith. The last I heard, Hampton had successful surgery for a torn tendon on his elbow and was expected to resume throwing in about six months. I don't recall any mention on anybody's part about ending his career...

CMS2478
05-25-2007, 11:01 AM
I choose to keep the faith. The last I heard, Hampton had successful surgery for a torn tendon on his elbow and was expected to resume throwing in about six months. I don't recall any mention on anybody's part about ending his career...

Even if he does come back (and I hope it's not with the Braves) he is still just a mediocre pitcher who won't have that great of an impact. His Cy Young days are long gone.

ugadevil
05-25-2007, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=Dukerati;23009]
I remember the Braves had a promotion a few years ago (and I think it lasted all summer but I can't remember) where you could get into the game for one dollar for the bleacher seats at game time. One dollar! The sad part is that the Braves could actually use the money. QUOTE]


I don't know if this is the same thing that you're talking about, but they do offer the "Skyline" section at all games. It's in the upper deck and near the foul poles on both sides, but tickets are only $1. I don't think you even have to wait until game time anymore to get them. The worst part about it is that every time I've been to a game, there are maybe 50 people in those seats. I sat in that section once and there were probably 15 other people in the entire section. They certainly aren't the best seats, but Turner is not a field where it's tough to get a good view of the game. It's not like weather is an issue seeing how it's normally high 70's/low 80's and comfortable for the majority of the night games.

Dukerati
05-25-2007, 01:20 PM
That is exactly what I was talking about. Thanks ugadevil! I just read this article on ESPN about Andruw and wow, it certainly leaves a lot of room for thought...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2880979

tbyers11
05-25-2007, 01:26 PM
Those $1 seats are sold out almost every home game. They only go on sale the day of the game at the box office at a certain time (~4-5 hrs before game time). The reason that you normally don't see people sitting in those seats is because the people that buy those tickets primarily hang out in the ChopHouse (the restaurant in right-center field) or the patio above it eating and drinking for the entire game. Anyone with a ticket (whether its a $1 skyline ticket or a Lexus level ticket) can get a table and watch the game from there.

Dukerati
06-01-2007, 07:28 AM
I lost this thread in the mix but thanks for the explanation tbyers. I know this thread has been talking a lot about how we would replace Andruw if we left.

Answer: Kosuke Fukudome

Who is he you ask? A 30 year old center fielder and free-agent-to-be for the Chunichi Dragons. He's coming to the states next year and these were his stats last year:

In 2006, he batted .351 with 31 homeruns and 104 RBIs

The power doesn't translate well from Japan to the US, but the average should.......

Channing
06-02-2007, 02:53 PM
What is the scoop on this Escobar kid? I hadnt really heard of him before today, and he had a great showing, offensively AND defensively. Is he a higher rated infield prospect than Prado? It looks like the future in Atlanta is bright, with a young core of Franceur, McCann, Escobar, Prado, and Saltalamachia all looking to be around for years to come.

Dukerati
06-05-2007, 03:53 PM
I do not remember seeing his name in the Baseball America prospect rankings for the Braves and then there is this from ESPN....

"A .295 career minor league hitter, Escobar could adequately fill an NL-only corner or middle infield spot for the short term. However, don't count on much else from him; in 223 career minor league games he has only 10 home runs and 14 stolen bases"

Dukerati
06-06-2007, 03:22 PM
Ugh, lost another one to the Marlins. We need Chipper back BAD. By the time he gets back into the lineup, we could be .500 or (gulp!) worse.

Channing
06-07-2007, 06:28 PM
I saw a write up on him in the AJC yesterday. Does anyone have the skinny on this kid? he seems to be a GREAT ballplayer - although that is the same thing we said when we drafted George Lombard

ugadevil
06-07-2007, 11:22 PM
the braves are really struggling with consistency right now. thankfully, the other team that is struggling just as much is the Mets. what is it with the way the braves play against teams in their own division? they seem to have the mets figured out but can't buy a series win against the marlins or nationals.

Dukerati
06-08-2007, 09:01 AM
I saw a write up on him in the AJC yesterday. Does anyone have the skinny on this kid? he seems to be a GREAT ballplayer - although that is the same thing we said when we drafted George Lombard

Heyward was the hot rumor coming out of Atlanta for the last few days preceding the draft. He was projected to go as high as sixth and Atlanta apparently had him in their top 5 on the board so they feel extremely fortunate to have landed him. As you all probably know the draft is a crapshoot so I try not to get too excited about our prospects but here's some info on the newest Atlanta Brave.

Reasons to get hyped:
- Five-tool (hooray tools!) high school centerfielder from Georgia (grew up 30 minutes away from Turner Field) who hit .520 with 8 hrs and 32 RBI
-Projects as a first basemen or corner outfielder with plus power (35+ Hr a year power)
-Very grounded and family-oriented, both parents graduated from Dartmouth
-Baseball prospectus thinks he's the outfielder least-likely to be a bust because he has "tremendous" plate discipline
-He's huge, 6'5'' 230 lbs already!

365Duke
06-14-2007, 05:56 PM
I love Bobby, he does not get the recognition he deserves.

Here is an article on his soon to be record


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2903669&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

Bostondevil
06-18-2007, 08:46 PM
Anybody want to talk trash? Make friendly wagers?

Go Sox!

(My number two son plays for the Braves in Little League this year so I'll be rooting for them in the Championship game on Wednesday.)

BluBones
06-18-2007, 09:44 PM
I'll talk some trash:

1978.

The Yankees cometh. ;-)

OZZIE4DUKE
06-18-2007, 10:52 PM
I'll talk some trash:

1978.

The Yankees cometh. ;-)

Well said BluBones! :D

Bostondevil
06-19-2007, 08:16 AM
I'll talk some trash:

1978.

The Yankees cometh. ;-)

You know, the thing about that is, now we Sox fans have a rejoinder.

It sure was great to see Dave Roberts playing in Fenway again, he got a standing ovation leading off for the Giants. Sometimes I like to amuse myself by thinking of all the teams that have won the World Series since the last time the Yankees did. Hmmm, Arizona Diamondbacks(!), LA/Anaheim Angels, Florida Marlins, Boston Red Sox, Chicago White Sox, St. Louis Cardinals, oh my.

And '78 just made '04 that much sweeter, plus I wasn't a Sox fan until '86. I became a Sox fan because of Roger Clemens, go figure. Started following the team after he struck out 20 Mariners on April 29, 1986 (still heart-broken about Louisville) so I got my heart broken twice that year. Moved to Boston 2 years later, became an even more rabid Sox fan. Although, at the end of the day, Duke Basketball will always be my first love and the only team I've pulled for all my life.

I was actually trying to talk smack with the Braves fans around here, but perhaps that's best left until after tonight's game. :-)

Dukerati
06-19-2007, 09:56 AM
It certainly helps that Big Papi sits on the bench for a decent portion of the interleague games. Without him in the lineup, I like our chances. Go Braves!

tombrady
06-20-2007, 09:14 AM
Well said BluBones! :D

Yankees fans that are cheering on the Yankees to catch the Red Sox clearly aren't very big Braves fans...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1996_WS.shtml

tombrady
07-30-2007, 11:01 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7074846

Big pickup for the Braves, only a 4.5 games out in the division, and they don't give up any current Major League talent to do it. Cost them a lot, but its worth it now that A Jones is hitting again.

EarlJam
07-30-2007, 11:28 AM
Agreed. Great pick-up for the Braves.

Still though, I don't think they can catch the Mets. The starting pitching is too inconsistent and they are 5 back in the loss column.

Odds look better for the Wildcard. Either way, just get in there!

-EarlJam

Olympic Fan
07-30-2007, 01:05 PM
I don't see why a five-game margin the loss column at the end of July is all that significant ... many teams have overcome larger margins in less time.

This trade reminds me a lot of the deal the Braves made to pick up Fred McGriff midway through the 1993 season. At the time of the trade (July 18), the Braves were 9.0 games back of the San Francisco Giants in the NL West -- and that was the last year without a wild card.

McGriff's numbers at that point in the 1993 season look very much like Teixeira's today:

McGriff 83 games .275 18 HR 46 RBI .361 OBP .497 SLUG
Teixeira 78 games .297 13 HR 49 RBI .397 OBP .514 SLUG

If anything, Teixeira's numbers are somewhat better -- plus he's two years younger AND a switch-hitter and he's the best defensive first-baseman in the game today.

McGriff's addition in 1993 showed just how much impact one strong hitter can make in a lineup ... The Braves were still nine out on August 11, but on Sept. 11, they were one game in front ...

I'm excited to think of the difference Teixeira will have in a lineup that already has three of the top five hitters in the National League (Chipper, Diaz and Renteria). Atlanta's first basemen have been hitting eighth and ninth all season -- now I imagine Teixeira bats fourth and allows Andruw to move down ...

He's signed through the 2008 season ... after that, it could be tough -- but Teixiera did play at Georgia Tech and might be anxious to stay in Atlanta if the Braves' new ownership will pony up.

I'm not saying this guarantees anything, but it does make the Braves MUCH better -- whether that's enough to catch the Mets or at least win the wild card, we'll have to see.

PS The Braves DID give up a major leaguer -- "Salty" (I won't attempt his full name) -- a 22-year-old switch-hitting catcher. He was a great prospect and Atlanta might regret giving him up, but you don't get a guy like Teixeira without giving up something.

EarlJam
07-30-2007, 01:09 PM
I don't see why a five-game margin the loss column at the end of July is all that significant ... many teams have overcome larger margins in less time.

All I can say is.....I hope you are 100 percent correct and I, being a jaded Orioles fan who lives in Atlanta and also loves the Braves, am 100 percent wrong. Go Braves!

-EarlJam

JasonEvans
07-30-2007, 01:24 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7074846

Big pickup for the Braves, only a 4.5 games out in the division, and they don't give up any current Major League talent to do it. Cost them a lot, but its worth it now that A Jones is hitting again.

Well, they gave up Salty, who is the top prospect in the Braves system and was already playing (a lot) for the major league club. He has shown flashes of greateness, but is really young and his best position is C. With McCann signed long-term, the Braves are more than set at C so he was expendable.

I like this deal. Texiera is a good offensive 1B and a great defensive player. He gives the Braves more power at 1B than they have had in a long time. Of course, he adds about $12 million to next year's payroll, which is yet another sign the Braves will not even try to sign Andruw Jones in the offseason.

I like the Braves offense a lot more now. If they can somehow manage to make the playoffs they could be a very tough out. There are few teams anywhere who can match the starting combo of Smoltz and Hudson. The fact that the Braves have woeful 4th and 5th starters would be prety much a non-concern in the playoffs.

-Jason "if Andruw starts to hit even a little bit, this could be a super-potent offense" Evans

tombrady
07-30-2007, 02:16 PM
PS The Braves DID give up a major leaguer -- "Salty" (I won't attempt his full name) -- a 22-year-old switch-hitting catcher. He was a great prospect and Atlanta might regret giving him up, but you don't get a guy like Teixeira without giving up something.

Exactly. He's the centerpiece, of course.


Well, they gave up Salty, who is the top prospect in the Braves system and was already playing (a lot) for the major league club. He has shown flashes of greateness, but is really young and his best position is C. With McCann signed long-term, the Braves are more than set at C so he was expendable.

Exactly. They have McCann, who is getting the Major League at-bats. Removing Salty from the current Braves team doesn't really do anything to their Major League roster, minus a good bat off the bench. So they essentially add Teix without giving up something real from the ML team (i.e. a starter, bullpen, etc.) Thats great for this season.

Word is now they might be moving in on Dotel for the bullpen. GFIN!

riverside6
07-30-2007, 02:18 PM
Just to be argumentative, D Lee is pretty dang good at first base, so I'm not sure that Tex is the best defensive first basemen in the game.

Of course Lee did almost play baseball and basketball at UNC, so maybe you're right.

Bluedawg
07-30-2007, 02:42 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7074846

Big pickup for the Braves, only a 4.5 games out in the division, and they don't give up any current Major League talent to do it. Cost them a lot, but its worth it now that A Jones is hitting again.

i don't like giving up prospects to do it;


The Rangers will receive catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Class A shortstop Elvis Andrus and two additional prospects.

they built the championship team on the farm system. After they traded away all of the prospects they kept getting swept in the wild card game, and now they can't make the playoffs. Frankly, I'd rather trade Chipper for a current Major League talent who could help now and prospects who can help us down the road.

That's how we got John Smoltz.


I don't see why a five-game margin the loss column at the end of July is all that significant ... many teams have overcome larger margins in less time.

Agreed...baseball is a game of streaks. If he can help us get hot we can ride it to the division. I recall a 13 game make up once.


All I can say is.....I hope you are 100 percent correct and I, being a jaded Orioles fan who lives in Atlanta and also loves the Braves, am 100 percent wrong. Go Braves!

100% agreement from a lifelong Braves fan

jma4life
07-30-2007, 06:00 PM
Yea, I'm not so sure I love this deal. Tex will definitely make the lineup scary with Chipper and Tex as lethal switch hitters in the 3-4 spot but Atlannta gave up some great talent. Salty and Andrus are the top two prospects in the Braves' farm system and with the two pitchers, it looks like the Braves have given up 4 of their top 10 prospeccts for a year and a half of Tex.

Also, it's being rumoured that the Braves are shipping either Davies or Lillbridge, another SS prospect for Dotel of the Royals. Seems like Schurholtz is really going for it this year.

One final note: What really annoys me about this deal is that the front office waited two weeks (probably the fault of the Rangers GM but Schurholtz should've done something to speed it up) to get the deal through. Over the course of those two weeks, the Braves have lost some really close games and theres no question that having Tex in those games could've resulted in 2-3 more wins easily.

By the way, is this the best lineup in the NL assuming Andruw turns it around even slightly.


Willie Harris/Escobar
Renteria
Chipper
Tex
Andruw
McCann
Francouer
Kelly Johnson/Diaz

Channing
07-30-2007, 08:12 PM
i think its a great move. Who knows how much time there is left for Smoltz and Chipper. Its pretty much a given Andruw is gone after the season. Yea, we had to give up two of our top prospects.

However, there is a glut of middle infielders in the Braves system, including Yunel Escobar who is the heir apparent at Short Stop. Unless Elvis was going to be converted into a CF there was not going to be much room for him anytime in the next 7 years.

McCann is signed through 2011 I believe, and there are apparently no designs to move Salty to first.

I hate giving up prospects, but I think it was a good move in this case, although it is going to cost an arm and a leg to resign him after next year with Boras at the head,

Bluedawg
07-31-2007, 09:08 AM
i think its a great move. Who knows how much time there is left for Smoltz and Chipper.

I'd keep john until he retires, but Chipper has gotten too injury prone. i think I'd trade him for prospects while he still has value.



Its pretty much a given Andruw is gone after the season.

that was said when his rookie contract ran out. He voluntarily took a lot less then he could have on the open market to stay with the Braves. I'll believe he is gone when he is. I'm holding out hope.


I hate giving up prospects, but I think it was a good move in this case, although it is going to cost an arm and a leg to resign him after next year with Boras at the head,

I hope you are right. I'm always worried about trading off our future for a short term fix, but that is what John and Bobby seem to want to do.

I'm always concerned when we sign one of Boras' clients. I really don't trust him.

Channing
07-31-2007, 09:20 AM
i cant see this as tradding away our future. We have an absolute glut of middle infielders in the minors and McCann signed long term. Matt Harrison has potential, but he has not been a lights out prospect in the minors.

We gave up a lot but I would hardly consider it mortgaging the future.

Dukerati
07-31-2007, 10:57 AM
I love this deal although it is infuriating to know that in this period of unparalleled financial boon for the MLB, the Braves can not afford either Andruw or Teixeria when they become free agents. I miss the days of Ted Turner:(

In other good news, Dotel is purportedly coming into the Braves fold which will go a long way in shoring up our bullpen... we still need starting pitching though and I am going to remain pessimistic about our chances as long as JoJo Reyes and Buddy Carlyle are everyday starters for us.

EarlJam
07-31-2007, 11:33 AM
I love this deal although it is infuriating to know that in this period of unparalleled financial boon for the MLB, the Braves can not afford either Andruw or Teixeria when they become free agents. I miss the days of Ted Turner:(

In other good news, Dotel is purportedly coming into the Braves fold which will go a long way in shoring up our bullpen... we still need starting pitching though and I am going to remain pessimistic about our chances as long as JoJo Reyes and Buddy Carlyle are everyday starters for us.

Agreed on all fronts. At the end of the day, it's PITCHING that wins pennants. Pitching, pitching, pitching. Definitely need a closer. I'm thinking wildcard at this point as our ticket to the playoffs, but not ruling out the division. Not going to be easy though.


-EarlJam

Gordon Shumway
07-31-2007, 12:51 PM
The Braves have generally done a good job knowing which prospects to keep and which ones to discard.

See the McGriff, Renteria, Sheffield, Hudson, JD Drew, Russ Ortiz trades.

The only real bad trade was trading Bret Boone/Ryan Klesko away in 1999. The Lofton/Justice, Schimidt/Naegle trades are debatable but not particularly lopsided.

Plus Teix's 27 years old. This isn't like picking up a Bonds/Griffey/Sheffield type player. He's in his prime and should have several productive years left.

Duvall
07-31-2007, 12:53 PM
The Braves have generally done a good job knowing which prospects to keep and which ones to discard.

See the McGriff, Renteria, Sheffield, Hudson, JD Drew, Russ Ortiz trades.

The only real bad trade was trading Bret Boone/Ryan Klesko away in 1999. The Lofton/Justice, Schimidt/Naegle trades are debatable but not particularly lopsided.


Yes, trading Adam Wainwright for one season of JD Drew was a real winner.


Plus Teix's 27 years old. This isn't like picking up a Bonds/Griffey/Sheffield type player. He's in his prime and should have several productive years left.

Unfortunately, most of those years will be spent in the Bronx. He's only going to play 200 games for Atlanta, assuming he stays healthy.

Terrible, terrible trade.

cspan37421
07-31-2007, 12:55 PM
Not that anyone cares, or should, but the term "Bravos" just grates on my ears. I hope I'm not alone - but Skip Carey (Caray?) isn't helping.

Back to our reguarly scheduled chat.

Olympic Fan
07-31-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm sure if you peruse the Braves' recent trade history you'll find a few moves that you can second-guess ... but on the whole, I can't think of any terrible moves.

Even Adam Wainwright for one year of JD Drew (and Eli Marrero, who had a 900 OPS in Atlanta) isn't a no brainer bust -- Drew and Marrero helped Atlanta win a division title and while Wainwright remains a nice prospect, he still hasn't realized that potential -- his current ERA for the Cards is 4.45.

On the whole, I think the Braves have traded wisely. Who have they given up on in recent years? Adam LaRoche (hitting .244 with a 750 OPS)? Wilson Betemit (hitting .231 in 84 games for LA)? Jason Marquis (a 4.51 ERA since leading Atlanta)? I hated the Kevin Millwood trade at the time, even though it was dictated by salary -- I thought they got nothing for him, but it turned out Johnny Estrada was a steal who gave the Braves two great seasons and served as a bridge between Javy Lopez and Brian McCann.

I can't believe somebody could suggest the Braves have traded away their future for "a quick fix" ... not when you look at a roster loaded with young talent from McCann to Franceour to Escobar to Kelly Johnson (not to mention highly touted busts such as Martin Prado and Scott Thorman -- they are still young enough to reach their potential) ... all 25 or younger. Plus current pitchers James and Davies and Reyes, McBride, Boyer, Ascanio and Devine -- all under 25 That doesn't count "old man" Soriano -- he's all of 27.

The Braves traded "one" premier prospect to get Teixeira -- Salty is a first-rate prospect -- the rest of the bunch are run-of-the-mill prospects. I think it was a reasonable trade because the Braves already had McCann at that position and by acquiring Teixeira, they're locking up first base for the next year and a half.

It's might become a "terrible, terrible" trade if 1) Salty becomes the next Johnny Bench ... or 2) if Salty becomes a quality player, while McCann breaks down in the near future for the Braves.

Teixeira's tenure in Atlanta will also impact how we judge the trade in retrospect. If he leaves after the 2008 season, then that will hurt. But I'm not ready to concede that's a lock for a kid who played his college ball in Atlanta. Who knows who will be signing the Braves pay checks when his contract expires?

Overall, I think it's a good gamble for the Braves ... they gave up a great prospect that they can't play at the moment for a great player who fills an immediate need. I think it's worth gambling to win before Chipper, Smoltz and Hudson get too old.

JasonEvans
07-31-2007, 08:22 PM
Even before this trade Texiera was looking at houses in Atlanta. He wanted to live here even before he got traded because he loved the city so much when he wass at Ga Tech. Clearly, the Braves will be the odds-on favorite to lock him up long-term... even with Boras pulling the strings.

I think the team will make a very good offer to Tax, especially if they (as expected) lose Andruw Jones to free agency. They need to keep one of their big stars.

I also think the odds are fairly decent that Arthur Blank will own the Braves by the time Texiera comes up for Free Agency.

-Jason "the Tex and Dotel deals make the Braves the best team in the NL according to some of the experts on ESPN" Evans

murpho
08-01-2007, 10:11 AM
Agree with Jason that Tex never wanted to stay with the Rangers. However, he apparently turned down an 8yr ~140mill offer from them before they traded him. Would have been the 4th highest current contract. Good luck to the Braves trying to resign him.

tombrady
08-01-2007, 10:17 AM
Unfortunately, most of those years will be spent in the Bronx. He's only going to play 200 games for Atlanta, assuming he stays healthy.

Terrible, terrible trade.

Well what the heck do you want the Braves to do? Make a push for the World Series when they've got a shot, or sit around for another 10 years waiting for "players to develop."

Sure, Salty is great, but there is a reason they are called "prospects." You don't know whats going to happen down the road. If you have the chance to get a proven major leaguer, you do it.

Duvall
08-01-2007, 10:17 AM
Even before this trade Texiera was looking at houses in Atlanta. He wanted to live here even before he got traded because he loved the city so much when he was at Ga Tech. Clearly, the Braves will be the odds-on favorite to lock him up long-term... even with Boras pulling the strings.

I think the team will make a very good offer to Tax, especially if they (as expected) lose Andruw Jones to free agency. They need to keep one of their big stars.

He may live in Atlanta, but he won't be working there. As murpho noted, Teixeira already turned down a better than very good offer from Texas. He's not going to sign with the Braves.

200 games - that's it.

tombrady
08-01-2007, 10:23 AM
He may live in Atlanta, but he won't be working there. As murpho noted, Teixeira already turned down a better than very good offer from Texas. He's not going to sign with the Braves.

200 games - that's it.

And he gives you a great shot to get into the playoffs this year AND next year, something that keeping Salty would NOT HAVE DONE. You already have a stud young catcher.

That is quite a bit.

wilson
08-01-2007, 10:42 AM
Of course, I always take these sorts of things with a grain of salt, but I really don't think the lucre of Texas' last offer had much to do with Teixeira's decision. If he were all about money, he obviously would have taken it. Today's AJC recounts the following tale:

"'He has always told me that when his baseball career is over, he's going to live in Atlanta,' said [Danny] Hall, [Georgia] Tech baseball coach...'I talked to him probably a month ago, when the trade rumors started swirling,' Hall said. 'He said, 'Coach, you know I'd love to play for the Braves. I want to go somewhere we have a chance to win.'" (Whew! Quote within a quote within a quote...my professors would be mortified)

It seems to me as if the main issue with the Rangers' offer was that, well, they stink, and have for as long as anyone can remember.

Anyone who pays attention to my posts knows that I love the Atlanta Braves, and I am thrilled with the deal. I was at the game last night, and even though none of the new players played, there was a buzz (not to mention a four homer, twelve run outburst before adding in the new big stick). When Teixeira appeared on the Jumbotron during the 6th after arriving at the stadium, he got a standing O. This not only gives the Braves the best lineup in the NL, it will also invigorate the fan base and help gear the whole town up for a pennant race. That's no small feat in a place like Atlanta, with our notoriously lukewarm fans, nor is the benefit of excited fans (and players) anything to sneeze at. I think the Braves now have a great shot to get back into the playoffs. The rotation is still a question mark, but show me more than about three teams (maybe) who can throw up 1-2 starters better than Smoltz and Hudson. After that, James and Carlyle have been very good recently. Par for the course from Smoltz/Huddy and serviceable contributions from the 3/4 slots, coupled with a very deep bullpen, gives me good hope for October. There are a couple of holes in the staff, but with the possible exception of the Red Sux, every team in the Majors has holes, pretty much all of them larger than the one I now see in the Braves.

Jarhead
08-01-2007, 12:47 PM
Last night the Braves were up by one run at the end of six. Tex shows up in the dugout in the seventh ready to go in the game. He wasn't needed, but the Braves go on a tear winning by seven runs. We are going to the playoffs. Karma always counts in baseball.

Dukerati
08-01-2007, 12:49 PM
I love the trade. I really do. However, Boras is already on record of wanting at LEAST 20 million a year for Teixeira which just seems ridiculous to me. I hope Jason is right about Arthur Blank because even with a hometown discount, he's going to be an expensive man to keep around.

Bluedawg
08-01-2007, 10:58 PM
I also think the odds are fairly decent that Arthur Blank will own the Braves by the time Texiera comes up for Free Agency.

Do you know something? Liberty Media (http://www.wmgt.com/node/2546) just bought them in February.

A sell to Arthur is one i would soundly applaud!

wilson
08-02-2007, 08:46 AM
Do you know something? Liberty Media (http://www.wmgt.com/node/2546) just bought them in February.

A sell to Arthur is one i would soundly applaud!

A large part of the reason for Liberty's purchase of the club was tax-related. By exchanging an "operating asset" along with massive amounts of stock in their transaction, Liberty and Turner were able to avoid a huge tax bill. In order to enjoy that loophole, Liberty (as I understand it) is obligated to hang on to the team for several years.
One scenario I have heard tossed about quite a bit, however, is that once the sale/exchange shakes out, they might "flip" the club.
Blank made no secret of his desire to purchase the team, and on the surface, it certainly appeared that the tax considerations trumped the desire to find a "good owner."
I have no idea how interested Liberty really is in owning the team, so Arthur very well may be able to buy them in a few years. Like you, Bluedawg, I would love that.

EarlJam
08-02-2007, 09:38 AM
A fairly boring, average debut for Tex in Atlanta:

1-4, with a homerun and a walk; 2 runs scored, 4 RBI

Yawn.

-EarlJam

P.S. YES!

Lavabe
08-02-2007, 09:39 AM
I don't mind Blank getting the Braves, so long as he gets to hold onto the Falcons.
Cheers,
Lavabe

unexpected
08-02-2007, 04:15 PM
I'll be the only Ranger fan to post on the boards...

First off, the Rangers haven't sucked for as long as anyone can remember. please. We had some fantastic teams in the 90's, and won our division twice in the past 10 years.

Secondly, I don't even think Teixera is any good. His numbers have gone wayyy down since they started drug testing, and they're also inflated because of our Ballpark.

Squawk all you want about his desire to win, but his agent is Boras- that says something. We offered him 18 million dollars for 7 years - a ridiculous sum of money, and he still turned it down. He may want 20 million, but everyone around him making 20 million is way above his league.

Since we knew he was leaving, it only made sense to trade him. At least we gutted your farm system in the process.

It's been pretty easy for us to get hitters- in the past 5 years, A-Rod, Alfonso Soriano, and Teixera have all been in homer heaven. Let's hope we clear a lot of payroll and gear up to throw 25 million at Santana.

wilson
08-02-2007, 04:53 PM
At least we gutted your farm system in the process..

Hardly. Did you glean significant talent in the trade? Sure. But the Braves are widely regarded as having one of the best farm systems in all of professional sports. There are plenty more "prospects" where your new ones came from. Furthermore, John Schuerholz has shown a remarkable ability to know which young players would pan out and which ones wouldn't. That doesn't mean that no prospect he has ever traded has turned out to be a good player. Nevertheless, he has traded numerous "can't-miss" minor leaguers over the years who never sniffed the majors. Furthermore, as he has widely noted in recent days, the reasons for developing a good farm system are twofold: a) to someday produce big league-quality talent. The Braves have obviously done that in recent years, with McCann, Francoeur, Escobar, Andruw, Chipper, et. al. on the club now and countless others (such as Tom Glavine) having contributed significantly to the team's past dominance). b) to produce possible bargaining chips for in-season deals. Schuerholz of course availed himself and the team of that purpose this week.


Let's hope we clear a lot of payroll and gear up to throw 25 million at Santana.

If Santana takes any amount to come and play in that bandbox, I'll eat my shorts, especially when the Twins themselves have made known their intent to build around him and Morneau with a $25 million offer of their own. You can bet the Yankees, Mutts, and Red Sux won't remain silent, either.


Secondly, I don't even think Teixera is any good. His numbers have gone wayyy down since they started drug testing, and they're also inflated because of our Ballpark.

Wrong. In 2005, the first year under the drug-testing policy, Teixeira improved his batting average by 20 points, hit five more home runs, and drove in 32 more runs over the previous season. In 2006, his numbers were virtually exactly the same as in 2004, the last season before drug testing: .282 BA in 2006, .281 in 2004. 110 RBI in 2006, 112 in 2004. Home runs down a bit, but more hits and nearly identical run production (runs scored plus RBI): 209 in 2006, 213 in 2004. When you adjust this total for home runs, his production was slightly better in 2006. While Teixeira's road batting average is a bit lower than his Ballpark at Arlington figure, his overall production is roughly even. In fact, his 2006 road totals were significantly better than his home totals. I'm certainly not wringing my hands over the addition of a switch-hitting, multiple Gold Glove-winning cleanup hitter who, oh by the way, hit a homer last night at Turner Field, a prominent "pitcher's park." Crow all you want about the trade, but I assure you that the Braves aren't going anywhere as a result of one trade. For that matter, neither are the Rangers.

JasonEvans
08-02-2007, 05:36 PM
If Santana takes any amount to come and play in that bandbox, I'll eat my shorts, especially when the Twins themselves have made known their intent to build around him and Morneau with a $25 million offer of their own. You can bet the Yankees, Mutts, and Red Sux won't remain silent, either.



FWIW, I see Santana's comments over the past few days about the Twins lack of activity at the trade deadline as an indication that he is none too pleased playing for a team with a very fixed budget. While Minnesoat may be willing to offer him just as much as any other club (even the Yankees), Johan seems like he wants to play for a winner, not for a team that is so hamstrug by his own salary that they cannot surround him with enough other quality players to win a ring.

I see the Yankees and Red Sox breaking the bank for him. Each team will use the money they are currently paying to Schilling and Clements to go after Santana.

-Jason "the pity is that Minnesota is as good as anyone at being good on a tight budget... but Johan thinks they are just not quite good enough" Evans

unexpected
08-02-2007, 05:44 PM
If I recall correctly, I thought the Big New Drug Testing policy was put in last year (2006, versus 2005). These sites seem to support this, but they look a bit circumspect:

http://www.drugfreesport.com/insight.asp?VolID=33&TopicID=6

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-New-MLB-Drug-Testing-Policy&id=276529

They say that drug policy was approved in November, 2005 after the World Series. Effective 2006 Season - where he hit 33 dingers and 110 RBIs.

His projected stats for this year are even worse: he's had a horrific start to this year, and is projected to hit 21 dingers and 80 RBIs.

You guys get excited over those numbers? He wasn't even our representative to the All-Star game. He may be a good player, but over 20 million? Pennant-defining guy? I don't think so.

And yea, the Rangers still aren't going to go anywhere, and probably not for a while- which is okay with me. When the time is right, at least we have ownership that's willing to bust out the bank, so I don't mind biding our time trying to develop quality pitching.

unexpected
08-02-2007, 05:50 PM
It's been noted that we took the Braves #1, #2, and #3 prospects. I think it's facetious to say thatthe farm system is exactly the way it was before- yes the Braves have drafted really well, and they've done an amazing job of flipping their draft picks into MLB players, but as it stands now, their farm system is significantly worse this Thursday than it was last Thursday.

Additionally, re: Santana, yea, we might not get him because of the Ballpark, but at least it won't be for lack of money. Hicks has said that he won't be outbid for Santana, and we'll have a lot of payroll room to work with.

I'm curious to see what the Yankees do- there was a report today that said Steinbrenner's health might be declining. If they sell the YES network, then they also lose a significant cash source.

EarlJam
08-02-2007, 05:57 PM
...so I don't mind biding our time trying to develop quality pitching.

As a long-time suffering Orioles fan, I've been saying this for years. It's ALL about the pitching in baseball. The O's have some good young talent, but they can't seem to get a full rotation over the hump. It's frustrating. We've made some great moves overall in the past though: Like getting rid of Curt Schilling, Pete Harnisch, Steve Finley and a handful of other scrubs I'm sure I'm not thinking of right now.

-EarlJam

wilson
08-02-2007, 06:02 PM
Testing was ramped up in 2006, but introduced in 2005:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050113&content_id=930789&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


His projected stats for this year are even worse: he's had a horrific start to this year, and is projected to hit 21 dingers and 80 RBIs.

Again, you're pretty wrong. That "horrific" start was due in large part to his having missed 30 or so games due to injury. Extrapolated to a full season, your stated numbers still come out to roughly 30 homers and 115 RBI. He did start a bit slowly when he was on he field, but that's all the more evidence that your cited numbers are misleading. He has caught up nicely to his career averages since getting it going, but having started in a hole, of course his season-long numbers are a bit off.

As for the Rangers developing pitching, that's just funny. What pitchers have they developed in the past decade? When your biggest pitching-related splash was the ~$60 million signing of Chan Ho Park, you've got problems.

Furthermore, pretty much everyone who studies/watches/writes about baseball for a living demonstrably disagrees with you, proclaiming the Braves among the "big winners" (if not the big winners) of the trade deadline, right back in the pennant race, and John Schuerholz as the genius he is:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2958754&name=gammons_peter&action=upsell&appRedirect=http&#37;3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d2958754%26name%3dgamm ons_peter

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/08/01/daily.scoop/index.html

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10275066

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/john_donovan/08/01/braves.schuerholz/index.html

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070731&content_id=2120411&vkey=trade2007&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

unexpected
08-02-2007, 06:25 PM
Okay, so real MLB drug testing started in 2006- there was no penalties for doping in 2005.

Teixeira went on the DL June 8th, and came back after the All-Star break. While he did miss 27 games, he was doing absolutely zero in April and the first half of May (before he went absolutely nuts towards the second part of May). I have both him and Andruw Jones (what the heck is wrong with him?)

We have had many decent pitchers play in the Ballpark - we've had Nolan Ryan, Kenny Rogers, and in 1997/1998, we had Rick Helling and Aaron Sele (in 1997 i think they both won 20 games).

As far as pitchers we've developed, yea, we don't have such a great track record. All of the good pitchers we draft, we usually trade to other teams. We've drafted Helling, Kevin Brown, Chris Young (just off the top of my head).

Our current farm system of pitchers is supposed to be pretty good- in fact most of our current pitching staff is home grown. Outside of Millwood, Padilla, and Otsuka, we've pretty much developed the rest of our staff.

Regardless, I think my original point still stands: Given that Teixera was going to leave, I think we made an excellent trade. This trade reminds me a lot of the Carlos Lee trade last year (another ugh!).

wilson
08-02-2007, 06:35 PM
Okay, so real MLB drug testing started in 2006- there was no penalties for doping in 2005.

Did you read the article? It clearly stated a 10-game suspension for the first offense. Absurdly light sanctions, to be sure, but sanctions nonetheless. Still solid evidence that your insinuation that Teixeira's best statistical years were ill-gotten was unfounded and borderline libelous (not to mention really, really tacky).

I won't bother with the fact that the good pitching seasons you cited occurred a minimum of ten years ago (and for the record, Nolan Ryan never came close to playing at the Ballpark in Arlington).

unexpected
08-02-2007, 06:37 PM
I'm glad that Braves Nation feels like they made a good trade. The "experts" said we made a great trade last year picking up Carlos Lee. Most analysts also said that Brandon McCarthy had a bigger upside that John Danks, and that Adam Eaton had a higher ceiling than Chris Young. ugh.

Sometimes in life, it is possible to have a situation where everyone wins. Most of the media here is greatful that we got rid of him. Too often in Rangers past we sacrifice tomorrow for building today, when there really was no today. We're a terrible team right now. We need to do something to get better. Keeping Tex around wasn't going to make us any better. Him hitting 80 HR's next year still leaves us in the same dumpy hole we're in now.

Embrace Tex if you want, but be forewarned, he has the exact same disposition as McRoberts.

DevilAlumna
08-02-2007, 07:21 PM
As a long-time suffering Orioles fan, I've been saying this for years. It's ALL about the pitching in baseball. The O's have some good young talent, but they can't seem to get a full rotation over the hump. It's frustrating. We've made some great moves overall in the past though: Like getting rid of Curt Schilling, Pete Harnisch, Steve Finley and a handful of other scrubs I'm sure I'm not thinking of right now.

-EarlJam

The Moose! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_mussina)

EarlJam
08-02-2007, 07:28 PM
The Moose! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_mussina)

May he burn in Hell.

Kidding, but he pretty much chose to leave Baltimore. The O's offered him good money but he still bolted to the Evil Empire. That's like Laettner transfering to UNC.

-EarlJam

EarlJam
08-08-2007, 08:18 PM
Okay, not really, but in key series with the Mets, the man is just a bad I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. Another clutch hit tonight.

Also, great call by the third base coack to wave Kelly Johnson around 3rd. Even had he gotten thrown out, it was the right thing to do.

Lastly, I am in love with John Smoltz too.

-EarlJam

jimsumner
08-08-2007, 09:39 PM
Earl, How do you feel about Atlanta's bullpen?

hc5duke
08-09-2007, 12:25 AM
Earl, How do you feel about Atlanta's bullpen?

Speaking of which (but not really), it's a good thing EarlJam weren't posting this in the 90s. John Rocker might have a problem with you...

EarlJam
08-09-2007, 07:53 AM
Earl, How do you feel about Atlanta's bullpen?

I hate Atlanta's bullpen.

-EarlJam

Dukerati
08-09-2007, 09:03 AM
I would throw Andruw Jones off a bridge right now if I saw him. Last night was devestating.

EarlJam
08-09-2007, 09:10 AM
I would throw Andruw Jones off a bridge right now if I saw him. Last night was devestating.

Agreed. And it's not a good sign that Smoltz was "flat." Yes, he pitched a gritty game but he struggled. Lacked zip, fire. Not the typical Smoltz.

-EarlJam

P.S. Also, the sky is falling.

merry
08-09-2007, 10:10 AM
Our dog's name is Chipper Jones. And no, we don't kick him.

Moose
08-09-2007, 10:51 AM
That's funny - we named our dog Avery, after Steve! We got to a point where we were kind of embarrassed about naming our dog after the pitcher as Steve Avery started to lose it baseball-wise. Well, now our dog is starting to lose it (eyesight/joint-wise) too, so I guess it's fitting.

- Moose

captmojo
08-09-2007, 12:31 PM
Okay, not really, but in key series with the Mets, the man is just a bad I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. Another clutch hit tonight.

Also, great call by the third base coack to wave Kelly Johnson around 3rd. Even had he gotten thrown out, it was the right thing to do.

Lastly, I am in love with John Smoltz too.

-EarlJam

Are there pharmaceuticals for this condition?

EarlJam
08-09-2007, 12:39 PM
3-run homer in 5th to put the Braves up 4-2.

As I type this, Tex just jacked on out behind Chipper to make it 5-2.

-EarlJam

EarlJam
08-09-2007, 12:40 PM
They measured Chipper's blast at 4475 feet. Whoops, I mean 475 feet.

captmojo
08-09-2007, 12:44 PM
That makes up for leaving Johnson stuck at 3rd.

DevilAlumna
08-09-2007, 01:49 PM
Laaaarrrrrry, Laaarrryyyyy, Laaaarrrryyyy!

Lavabe
08-09-2007, 03:03 PM
Is EarlJam alive after today's bullpen implosion?

GOT to love Willie Harris.

Cheers,
Lavabe

merry
08-09-2007, 04:39 PM
That's funny - we named our dog Avery, after Steve! We got to a point where we were kind of embarrassed about naming our dog after the pitcher as Steve Avery started to lose it baseball-wise. Well, now our dog is starting to lose it (eyesight/joint-wise) too, so I guess it's fitting.

- Moose

Chipper had this name when we got him and my son (whose dog it theoretically is) wanted to keep the name. The friend whose foster dog had the puppies named all three of the males after Braves - the other two are Raul and Andruw Jones. He's a little beagle mix and very cute and friendly (alternate interpretation - he's a major suck up) so usually people think we named him "chipper" after his cheerful personality.

Moose
08-09-2007, 07:43 PM
The friend whose foster dog had the puppies named all three of the males after Braves - the other two are Raul and Andruw Jones.

Seriously? Raul? As in Raul Mondesi? Wow, what a blast from the past. Well, maybe a fizzle from the past, but from the past none-the-less...

- Moose

EarlJam
08-09-2007, 08:57 PM
Is EarlJam alive after today's bullpen implosion?

GOT to love Willie Harris.

Cheers,
Lavabe

My goodness. Another bullpen implosion. That catch by Willie Harris could be the turning point of the season. Absolutely incredible, but it shouldn't have come to that.

Still, as the dust settles, Braves take 2 of 3 at Shea. Got to be happy with that.

-EarlJam

Lavabe
08-09-2007, 09:21 PM
My goodness. Another bullpen implosion. That catch by Willie Harris could be the turning point of the season. Absolutely incredible, but it shouldn't have come to that.

Still, as the dust settles, Braves take 2 of 3 at Shea. Got to be happy with that.

-EarlJam

Part of the reason for the last two implodes is that the ace closer, Wickman, is having an MRI done for some elbow soreness. He had Tommy John surgery 5 or 6 years ago, but the reports are that it isn't the same pain that he experienced prior to the surgery.

I am almost of the mind to suggest that the Braves pick up DAVID WELLS to close games.:eek: ANYTHING is better than the last few games.
Cheers,
Lavabe

JasonEvans
08-09-2007, 10:26 PM
I think they should try Moylan closing. He's been great lately and has a funnky style that hitters will have trouble adjusting to.

-Jason "how can we trade again and again for bullpen help and still have such a lousy bullpen?" Evans

Channing
08-10-2007, 07:47 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Moylan seems to be our best reliever, followed by Mahay. They seem to be the two who limit hard hits the most.

but we are going to need Wickman to be healthy, imo, to make a real run down the stretch.

I still cant believe we let game two of that series get away like that, but great job bouncing back the next day.

Now lets do the same, only better, to the Phils. Although I was looking at the pitching matchups and not sure how well we look:

James v. Hamels
Cormier v. Eaton (although we rocked Eaton, iirc, last time we faced him)
Carlyle v. Moyer

merry
08-10-2007, 08:01 AM
Seriously? Raul? As in Raul Mondesi? Wow, what a blast from the past. Well, maybe a fizzle from the past, but from the past none-the-less...

- Moose

I think in Raul's case she just thought it was a good name for a dog, especially a beagle since they usually bay instead of going woof-woof (as in "Ra-uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuul!"

NovaScotian
08-10-2007, 10:08 AM
i actually got to go to the last two mets games, and i can safely say the home run chipper hit yesterday was the farthest up the scoreboard i've ever seen anything hit. also, with his comments about a-rod having to answer questions about steroids and now his refusal to talk to the new york media, i am further convinced that larry is a huge jerk. it wouldnt surprise me to learn that he himself used steroids (even thought his numbers have remained steady if i remember). his quote about a-rod was unfounded and un called for, and frankly he deserves all the crap he got in the papers the next day.

i guess all im trying to say is that he is a met killer and a perfect nemesis for us. its just too bad you wont be making the playoffs...

EarlJam
08-10-2007, 10:44 AM
i actually got to go to the last two mets games, and i can safely say the home run chipper hit yesterday was the farthest up the scoreboard i've ever seen anything hit. also, with his comments about a-rod having to answer questions about steroids and now his refusal to talk to the new york media, i am further convinced that larry is a huge jerk. it wouldnt surprise me to learn that he himself used steroids (even thought his numbers have remained steady if i remember). his quote about a-rod was unfounded and un called for, and frankly he deserves all the crap he got in the papers the next day.

i guess all im trying to say is that he is a met killer and a perfect nemesis for us. its just too bad you wont be making the playoffs...

Didn't sound like to me that Chipper went off on A-Rod accusing him of steriod use. He simply stated his opinion that yes, A-Rod likely will be subjected to a rather intense bombbardment of questions regarding steroid use as he approached Bond's record. Makes sense to me. It would have been different if he'd have said something like, "Yeah, I think A-Rod's guilty."

I really didn't see the big deal in his comments. Looks like the infamous New York media made a grand slam out of a single:

From an article in today's Atlanta paper:
Jones said he expected Rodriguez would be (subjected to steroid questions), and that so would other players of the "steroid era," including Jones himself. He said if he had to "pose a guess" on whether Rodriguez used steroids, "I would say no. But I don't know."

When the tabloids saw the wire-service quotes, they splashed them across the back pages. In the New York Post, the headline said "A 'Roid Shocker" with the subhead "Chipper says drug questions will dog Alex."

In the Daily News, the headline across the top was "Chipper's A-Bomb."

Olympic Fan
08-10-2007, 12:37 PM
We've talked about this before, but the Mets' series just completed (and the title of this thread) got me thinking again about Chipper's Hall of Fame chances.

He's 35 years old (he'll turn 36 next April) and is now completing his 14th season in the Majors -- all with the Braves.

He's got a career .306 average with 376 HRs and 1,260 RBIs. He's got a career .403 OBP and a career .544 slug average. And consider that he's done it mostly at third base (1,393 games at third, 341 in left). Defensively, the numbers suggest he's a pretty average third-baseman -- his career fielding percentage and his career range factors are both VERY slightly above the league averages for his career. Still an average third baseman who slugs like an all-star outfielder is more valuable because of his position.

He has one MVP and five top 10 MVP finishes.

It will be interesting to see how he finishes up. He's been plagued by a number of nagging injuries in recent years, but when he plays, his play hasn't dropped off at all -- in fact, he's on pace to finish this season with his second-best year ever (behind his 1999 MVP season) -- .339 average, .432 OBP, .598 SLUG-- 1.030 OPS!). And although he has missed some time with injury, he's played in 91 of 105 Atlanta games.

As for the steroid comments ... when I heard the tape, it sounded more like Chipper was complaining about how his entire era was tainted by the scandal and how all the great hitters (including himself) would have to undergo scrutiny. I'm a Yankee fan first (Braves second) and didn't take it at all as a slap at A-Rod.

throatybeard
08-10-2007, 12:43 PM
Wickman, schmickman. That guy did all sorts of damage to my fanatsy team.

EarlJam
08-10-2007, 01:40 PM
Wickman, schmickman. That guy did all sorts of damage to my fanatsy team.

Throaty,

What is your avatar a picture of?

-EarlJam

TillyGalore
08-10-2007, 01:49 PM
Throaty,

What is your avatar a picture of?

-EarlJam

I'm guessing the St. Louis arch. Am I right?

JasonEvans
08-10-2007, 02:27 PM
Since Tex came to the Braves 8 games ago, the team is averaging 6.75 runs per game. We have scored 6 or more runs in 6 of the 8 games.

The pitching matchup does not bother me all that much against the Phils. This team will put runs on the board.

-Jason "could Andruw be having a worse season at the plate?" Evans

EarlJam
08-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Since Tex came to the Braves 8 games ago, the team is averaging 6.75 runs per game. We have scored 6 or more runs in 6 of the 8 games.

The pitching matchup does not bother me all that much against the Phils. This team will put runs on the board.

-Jason "could Andruw be having a worse season at the plate?" Evans

Jason,

What is your take on Smoltz? Obviously he will be key down the stretch. Do you think he looked flat the last time out? Could he be giving out of gas?

-EarlJam

EarlJam
08-10-2007, 02:31 PM
Also,

How about moving Smoltz to the bullpen? Would that be nuts? Yes, we'd give up a really good starter in the rotation but we'd have a reliable long-relief/closer guy to go to in more games. Long way of saying we could use him in more games.

-EarlJam

JasonEvans
08-10-2007, 02:51 PM
Also,

How about moving Smoltz to the bullpen? Would that be nuts? Yes, we'd give up a really good starter in the rotation but we'd have a reliable long-relief/closer guy to go to in more games. Long way of saying we could use him in more games.

-EarlJam

No!!!

Starters, especially ones who have ERAs around 3.00 are EXTREMELY hard to come by and are worth their weight in gold. Relievers are not nearly as tough a commodity to come by.

Yes, the Braves late relievers appear to be struggling, but we have options and combinations we can try there. If we moved Smoltz to the bullpen, who is gonna start for us?

Plus, I think I read somewhere that Smoltz prefers starting and thinks it helps his arm to take days off. I am not sure how he would respond physically if asked to change at mid-season from a 6-7 innings every 5 days guy into a 1 inning every other day player. It might not be healthy.

-Jason "I disagree that Smoltz seemed flat and think he will turn it on down the stretch" Evans

Lavabe
08-11-2007, 09:09 PM
Well, Wickman pulls through with a save in Philly...
BUT...
Reliever Dotel is now on the DL.
Reliever Soriano STILL is guaranteed to give up a home run.
And the starter couldn't last in this game.

Perhaps the bullpen woes are because the Braves starters simply don't go much past six innings. A complete game by Hudson or Smoltz would do wonders. It looks like one tired bullpen.

Cheers,
Lavabe

JasonEvans
08-12-2007, 06:11 AM
They've got an off-day Monday followed by a homestand that begins with 3 against the fading San Fran Giants. Now that Bonds is resting more, the Giants are really offensively challenged.

-Jason "the Braves do need a nice 8-2 stretch or a 6 game winstreak to really tighten things up" Evans

Olympic Fan
08-12-2007, 10:55 AM
Jason "the Braves do need a nice 8-2 stretch or a 6 game winstreak to really tighten things up" Evans

Tighten things up?

As of this (Sunday) morning the two races -- NL East and Wild Card -- were tight enough. In the East, the top of the standings looked like this:

Mets 65-52 --
Braves 62-55 2.5
Phillies 61-55 3.0

In the Wild Card, it's:

Padres 62-54 --
Braves 62-55 0.5
Phillies 61-55 1.0
Rockies 60-56 2.0
Dodgers 60-56 2.0

No one else has a realistic chance in either race. But the Braves are right up there. They seem to have turned it around a bit since a very weak stretch at midseason. Atlanta was 16-9 in April, then two games under .500 for the next three months. They're 6-4 (with seven of the 10 games against teams in postseason contention) since acquiring Texeira and 8-4 in their last 12. They've gained ground on NY and Philly during that stretch.

I don't think major changes are necessary, although obviously they could use bullpen help. The acquisition of Dotel was a good try ... it just didn't work.

I think tonight's game -- at 8 p.m. on ESPN -- is huge ... a loss and they're behind Philly again, while a win provides just a bit of breathing room going home -- plus every game is vital in that dead-even wild card race.

BTW (since I'm also a Yankee fan), I can't help celebrating the way my Yankees have bounced back. I remind you that I did insist that all the early season panic was overblown and predicted a turnaround once the pitching staff got relatively healthy. I do admit that I wrote off their chances of catching the Red Sox. That's still going to be tough, but it's no longer impossible. As of today:

Boston 70-46 --
Yankees 65-51 5.0

Even better is the wild card picture:

Seattle 64-50 --
Yankees 65-51 -- (even on games behind, but the Mariners are actually a few percentage points ahead)
Detroit 64-52 1.0

Toronto is 6.5 back and Minnesota is 7.0 out, so it's probably between those three teams.

The Yankees have the best record in baseball since the all-star break and have shown no signs of slowing down. It's going to be an interesting late-August, September stretch run.

captmojo
08-12-2007, 10:56 AM
Perhaps the bullpen woes are because the Braves starters simply don't go much past six innings. A complete game by Hudson or Smoltz would do wonders. It looks like one tired bullpen.

Cheers,
Lavabe

...a complete game from any other than Hudson or Smoltz would be wonderful.

EarlJam
08-12-2007, 11:07 PM
That is all.

No, wait. I also hate those umps. Look, it's kind of an unwritten rule in baseball that the guy's out at 2nd on a double play if you are in the vicinity of he bag when turning it. That was more than the vicinity. Dude should have been called out at second.

-EarlJam

hc5duke
08-13-2007, 01:36 AM
Andruw is one loyal guy... he wants to stay with the Braves so badly he's willing to risk his and his team's season ;)

dukemomLA
08-13-2007, 03:17 AM
Since I have a signed ball from Andruw, I'm disappointed with his career so far. Damn....I wish that ball was worth something. (Although as a METS fan -- "You Gotta Believe" said Tug McGraw) hating the Braves comes naturally.

Lavabe
08-13-2007, 06:23 AM
The AJC reported yesterday that Andruw is wanting an MRI for his elbow.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Channing
08-13-2007, 07:51 AM
I am not quite sure how much pain Andruw is playing through, but it is fairly certain he is playing through a decent amount of pain. I applaud his willingness to do so, but he has to realize that he is hurting the team, and that there are other viable options available if he wants to take some time to get healthy. Hi sat bats are useless as long as he is trying to pull the ball, which appears to be 19 out of every 20 at bats.

As for that double play, I have to agree with the ump, Yunel clearly missed the bag, it was the right call, albeit an infuriating one.

EarlJam
08-13-2007, 08:39 AM
I am not quite sure how much pain Andruw is playing through, but it is fairly certain he is playing through a decent amount of pain. I applaud his willingness to do so, but he has to realize that he is hurting the team, and that there are other viable options available if he wants to take some time to get healthy. Hi sat bats are useless as long as he is trying to pull the ball, which appears to be 19 out of every 20 at bats.

As for that double play, I have to agree with the ump, Yunel clearly missed the bag, it was the right call, albeit an infuriating one.

But you have to admit, umpires RARELY call that. Right or wrong, I've seen guys miss the bag by three feet and the ump will still call them out. That, or they will tag second after the throw has left their hand. The call at first was correct, but 95 times out of 100, that play at second is ruled an out.

-EarlJam

allenmurray
08-13-2007, 09:21 AM
But you have to admit, umpires RARELY call that. Right or wrong, I've seen guys miss the bag by three feet and the ump will still call them out. That, or they will tag second after the throw has left their hand. The call at first was correct, but 95 times out of 100, that play at second is ruled an out.

-EarlJam

You are right, and I've never liked that. Turning a double play should be difficult. The extreme latitude that officials give in this makes the double play more common than it should be and reduces its "specialness".

EarlJam
08-13-2007, 09:26 AM
You are right, and I've never liked that. Turning a double play should be difficult. The extreme latitude that officials give in this makes the double play more common than it should be and reduces its "specialness".

I agree with you 100 percent. No "fake" outs. I just wonder why the unwritten rule (bad as it may be, and yes, it's bad) wasn't followed last night.

No conspiracy theory here at all, and the Braves screwed up by giving up the dinger to Howard. I was just peeved over the Braves not getting a call that is normally made.

-PeevedJam

wilson
08-13-2007, 10:12 AM
I am not quite sure how much pain Andruw is playing through, but it is fairly certain he is playing through a decent amount of pain. I applaud his willingness to do so, but he has to realize that he is hurting the team, and that there are other viable options available if he wants to take some time to get healthy. Hi sat bats are useless as long as he is trying to pull the ball, which appears to be 19 out of every 20 at bats.

AMEN. I too applaud Andruw's willingness to "take one for the team." But if he's going to play through pain, it seems as if he'd be game enough to alter his plate approach a bit. In one sentence, he talks about how he can't fully extend his arms and get the required torque into his swing, but in the next, he insists that he's a pull hitter. Either he's as obstinate as the day is long, or he's plain stupid. If you can't fully extend your arms, you are pretty much by definition not a pull hitter. He could at least shorten his swing and start dumping a few balls opposite-field so as to, you know, GET ON BASE every once in a while.

Or he could keep hitting into double play after double play and not running out ground balls, while ignoring his LEAGUE-LOW average among regular offensive starters (his terrible plate performance...now that's offensive--*rimshot*).

Why does he refuse to acknowledge what everyone else already knows?

EarlJam
08-13-2007, 04:32 PM
Wilson, meant to say this earlier but your dissecting and predicting of Andruw Jones' at-bat the other week against the Rockies was just classic.

You pretty much made the call on three straight swings as to what Andruw would do. It was a shining moment, capped off by Jones' predicted futility at the end of the at-bat.

Next game, two beers on EarlJam.

-EarlJam

Bluedawg
08-14-2007, 09:22 AM
Interesting love/hate relationship here. BTW, he was out at first also. not by much but the ball beat him there.

oso diablo
08-17-2007, 12:10 PM
Mark Teixeira Tribute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDHjGrbXiD4)

throatybeard
08-24-2007, 09:41 AM
So I'm going to Braves at Cardinals tonight and tomorrow night. Braves throw Smoltzy tonight.

EarlJam
08-24-2007, 09:54 AM
So I'm going to Braves at Cardinals tonight and tomorrow night. Braves throw Smoltzy tonight.

That will be cool. I've always wanted to see a game in St. Louis. Great fans.

I'm SO frustrated with the Braves. The recent trend: Get a lead, give it up the very next inning.

No pitching. For you O's fans out there, this year's Braves reminds me of the '85 Orioles. Like the Braves, the O's had a great pitching rotation for years (McGregor, Flanagan, Palmer, D. Martinez) at the core. To me, this rotation was like Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz and company. By '84, the O's staff was getting older, despite newbies with promise Mike Boddicker and Storm Davis (Davis and Boddicker were the Kyle Davies of the O's).

To try to compensate for the decline of pitching the O's, like the Braves now, tried to make up for it by stacking the line-up with heavy hitters. Thus began the long decline. Didn't work then for the O's and it ain't working now for the Braves.

No pitching? No pennant.

Frustrating.

-EarlJam

TillyGalore
08-24-2007, 10:03 AM
For you O's fans out there, this year's Braves reminds me of the '85 Orioles. Like the Braves, the O's had a great pitching rotation for years (McGregor, Flanagan, Palmer, D. Martinez) at the core. To me, this rotation was like Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz and company. By '84, the O's staff was getting older, despite newbies with promise Mike Boddicker and Storm Davis (Davis and Boddicker were the Kyle Davies of the O's).

To try to compensate for the decline of pitching the O's, like the Braves now, tried to make up for it by stacking the line-up with heavy hitters. Thus began the long decline. Didn't work then for the O's and it ain't working now for the Braves.

No pitching? No pennant.

Frustrating.

-EarlJam

EarlJam, please stop taunting this poor suffering O's fan by drudging up wonderful albeit bitter memories.

Tilly "will I live long enough to see the O's return to glory" Galore

JasonEvans
08-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Braves pattern recently:
Win 2 (Smoltz and Hudson), Lose 3 (the other starters)

Hard to make the playoffs like that.

-Jason "they need to win a couple of these 8-7, 9-7 shootouts with their bad pitchers on the mound and maybe get on an 8-2 run or so... soon!" Evans

Bluedawg
08-24-2007, 10:56 AM
I’ve been saying for the past 9-10 years that the Braves have gone s far as they can with Bobby Cox. Year after year I get shot down and year after year I’m proven correct as they slide back to pre 1991 status.

Look at this years standings. They are even out of the wildcard race.

Divisional Race (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp)

East W L PCT GB L10 STRK
New York 71 55 .563 - 7-3 L2
Philadelphia 66 60 .524 5.0 5-5 L2
Atlanta 66 62 .516 6.0 4-6 L3


Wild card race (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/standings/wildcard.jsp)

Team W L PCT GB E# L10 STRK
San Diego 68 58 .540 - - 6-4 W2
Philadelphia 66 60 .524 2.0 35 5-5 L2
Los Angeles 66 61 .520 2.5 34 6-4 W2
Atlanta 66 62 .516 3.0 33 4-6 L3

In 2006 they ended up in third place, 18 games back.
In 2005, the last year they won the division they were swept by the wildcard team. In fact the last 3-4 years they made the playoffs they were swept by the wildcard team. I realize for some just making the playoffs is good enough, like just making the NCAA basketball tournament is good enough, but I’m not willing to settle.

If Bobby can get us back to the level we had between 1991-1995 then it is time for him to move on and let’s bring in a manager who can.

Duvall
08-24-2007, 11:23 AM
If Bobby can get us back to the level we had between 1991-1995 then it is time for him to move on and letís bring in a manager who can.

Right. I'm sure it's the manager, and not the lack of a third major league pitcher.

EarlJam
08-24-2007, 11:25 AM
Right. I'm sure it's the manager, and not the lack of a third major league pitcher.

Not to mention a fourth and fifth major league pitcher.........and a closer who can get outs and field the ball.

Tommac
08-24-2007, 12:56 PM
I think the braves problems for the past 6-8 years is the stingy ownership. They have made every effort to reduce payroll at the expense of letting their stars leave as free agents. And many have continued to have productive careers at their new teams. Actually I am amazed that John Shurholz and Bobby Cox have kept the Braves as competitive as they have been.

throatybeard
08-24-2007, 02:15 PM
Braves pattern recently:
Win 2 (Smoltz and Hudson), Lose 3 (the other starters)

Spahn and Sain and pray for rain.

Lavabe
08-24-2007, 02:22 PM
No pitching. For you O's fans out there, this year's Braves reminds me of the '85 Orioles. Like the Braves, the O's had a great pitching rotation for years (McGregor, Flanagan, Palmer, D. Martinez) at the core. To me, this rotation was like Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz and company. By '84, the O's staff was getting older, despite newbies with promise Mike Boddicker and Storm Davis (Davis and Boddicker were the Kyle Davies of the O's). -EarlJam

Umm... as I recall, the 4 20-gamers in one season were Palmer, Cuellar, Dobson, and McNally. They had great fielding infielders, including Etchebarren, Powell, Johnson, Belanger, and Brooks.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Bluedawg
08-24-2007, 02:36 PM
Right. I'm sure it's the manager, and not the lack of a third major league pitcher.

Now it was the "of a third major league pitcher" before that it was the lack of a major league 1st baseman, before that a shortstop, the a left or right fielder, and always a closer Players and excuses change the only constant has been the manager.

How many more excuses can people come up with before they actually look at the problem?

Bluedawg
08-24-2007, 02:40 PM
I think the braves problems for the past 6-8 years is the stingy ownership. They have made every effort to reduce payroll at the expense of letting their stars leave as free agents. And many have continued to have productive careers at their new teams. Actually I am amazed that John Shurholz and Bobby Cox have kept the Braves as competitive as they have been.

They have shipped away some of the best prospects in baseball for veterans on the backside of their careers. They started patching holes instead of building a team like the did leading up to 1991.

throatybeard
08-25-2007, 11:42 AM
Managers barely matter at all.

JasonEvans
08-25-2007, 01:26 PM
I'll be honest, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was a joke. Seriously. The notion that someone who cares about the Braves could want Bobby Cox gone is beyond comprehension.

I think the problem is that you are measuring his success too much based upon the randomness of the playoffs. In a short 5-game or even 7-game series just about anything can happen. The Braves have had a bad run in the playoffs lately, but the real measure of a manager is keepign a team in playoff contention year after year (which Bobby has assuredly done, even as his tars have aged and his payroll has dramatically shrunk).

Think about this -- the very best teams in the NL plays around .570 ball. When the very best wins LESS THAN 3-out-of-every-5-games then a 5-game series against ANYONE is going to be a crapshoot. Heck, I bet the DRays or Pirates would have about a 25% chance of winning a 5-game-series against any team in baseball. I am serious.

-Jason "the notion that the Braves are done is foolish-- yes, they are reeling but there is plenty of baseball still to be played" Evans

JasonEvans
08-25-2007, 01:28 PM
Spahn and Sain and pray for rain.

Smoltz and Hudson and three days of cussin'.

-Jason "that's the new slogan in HotLanta" Evans

cspan37421
08-25-2007, 03:12 PM
It could also be personnel, scouting, payroll, and bench coaching. What was more dramatic than the tumble the Braves took immediately upon Leo Mazzone's departure? The pitching staff tanked. They've generally been consistently excellent under Cox. Only once the best overall, but almost always the best in their division. Isn't he stepping down next year anyway? And besides, who is KNOWN to be able to do better?

Some of their free-agent moves have baffled me. Buying high, selling low, or so it seems. Yes, Cox is the one constant. But he was also the one constant when they were winning divisions. It seems to me that there was a college basketball coach who once was tarred with not being able to win the big one, having gone to 4 final fours in 5 years, coming up short every time. I for one am glad we didn't jettison him.

This reminds me of calls for Joe Torre's head. And IMO it isn't like you can point to Torre or Cox, and say that in a key playoff game they, like Dusty Baker and Grady Little, left a high-priced pitcher in who was obviously spent.

Bluedawg
08-25-2007, 07:59 PM
I'll be honest, when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was a joke. Seriously. The notion that someone who cares about the Braves could want Bobby Cox gone is beyond comprehension.

I think the problem is that you are measuring his success too much based upon the randomness of the playoffs. In a short 5-game or even 7-game series just about anything can happen. The Braves have had a bad run in the playoffs lately, but the real measure of a manager is keepign a team in playoff contention year after year (which Bobby has assuredly done, even as his tars have aged and his payroll has dramatically shrunk).

Think about this -- the very best teams in the NL plays around .570 ball. When the very best wins LESS THAN 3-out-of-every-5-games then a 5-game series against ANYONE is going to be a crapshoot. Heck, I bet the DRays or Pirates would have about a 25% chance of winning a 5-game-series against any team in baseball. I am serious.

-Jason "the notion that the Braves are done is foolish-- yes, they are reeling but there is plenty of baseball still to be played" Evans

I didn't say they are done...I'm just saying it's time to move on.

The difference between us is that I'm not willing to settle for just "keeping a team in playoff contention". Settling for just making a good showing is what is really beyond comprehension.

I've been a Braves fan my entire life, from the time you could show up at 7:30 for a 7:35 start, pay $6.00 and sit a dozen rows, or less, behind 1st base. When the big question was would they lose less then 100 games. Like Lewis Grizzard used to say, since you call call the stadium and ask what time the games starts and they'd say "that depends, what time can you get here."

Being a lifelong fan I tend to have a slightly different prospective from most people. I want it all.

Bluedawg
08-25-2007, 08:05 PM
Yes, Cox is the one constant. But he was also the one constant when they were winning divisions.

The pre-1995 attitude and the post-1995 are different. Pre 1995 they focused on building teams using their farm system, bringing people up. Post 1995 they used the farm system to go out a get veteran on the backside of their career. that has been a large part of their problem.


This reminds me of calls for Joe Torre's head. And IMO it isn't like you can point to Torre or Cox, and say that in a key playoff game they, like Dusty Baker and Grady Little, left a high-priced pitcher in who was obviously spent.

If that was a once In a while occurrence I'd agree with you, but it is getting far too regular.

Bob Green
08-26-2007, 12:39 AM
It is the little pleasures in life that are so enjoyable. I'm really not interested in analyzing why the Braves are losing, as I am too busy enjoying the fact that the Braves are losing! :)

JasonEvans
08-26-2007, 06:51 AM
I didn't say they are done...I'm just saying it's time to move on.

The difference between us is that I'm not willing to settle for just "keeping a team in playoff contention". Settling for just making a good showing is what is really beyond comprehension.

I've been a Braves fan my entire life, from the time you could show up at 7:30 for a 7:35 start, pay $6.00 and sit a dozen rows, or less, behind 1st base. When the big question was would they lose less then 100 games. Like Lewis Grizzard used to say, since you call call the stadium and ask what time the games starts and they'd say "that depends, what time can you get here."

Being a lifelong fan I tend to have a slightly different prospective from most people. I want it all.

Just so we are clear, I have lived in Atlanta for virtually my entire life -- and I am 40 years old. So we have exactly the same perspective on this team. I used to fall asleep at night as a child listening to Braves games on the radio. Biff Pocoroba, Jerry Royster, Jeff Burroughs, and (of course) Dale Murphy and Bob Horner were my early heroes in life.

Make no mistake, I want it all too. The difference is I don't think Bobby Cox is the reason we don't have it all right now. I also think that keeping the team in playoff contention is about all you can ask of a manager. Making the playoffs is all he can really control. Once you get to the playoffs, it is a crapshoot. The best team very rarely wins. The Braves have had extraordinary luck (for the most part) in the regular season under Bobby Cox and they have largely had bad luck in the post season. Those are the breaks. Someday they will work themselves out.

Someone else brought up Coach K and I think it is somewhat similar to Duke. For the most part, from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, K had extraordinarily good fortune and success in the post-season though not quite as much in the regular season. People forget this but during Duke's amazing Final Four run from 1986-94, Duke was not a #1 seed very often. We were good-- very good-- in the regular season but we were generally a team in the second tier during the regular season (with the exceptions of 1986 and 1992). But, we had amazing NCAA tourney success almost always doing better than our seed would indicate.

Compare that with what Duke has been in the past decade. you could pretty much book us for a #1 seed and being ranked #1 in the nation (at least at some point) in something like 9 of the past 11 years (i did not look it up, but this is how it feels to me). Our regular season success has been ridiculous. However, we have quite often failed to live up to post-season expectations. Again, I have not looked it up, but I think that in the past 8 times we have been a #1 seed, we have only made the Final Four three times and we only hae one national title from the past decade even though we have entered the tournament as the favorite to win the title something like 5 or 6 times.

Look, I am not criticizing K or Duke at all-- what we have done the past decade or so has been truly amazing. Still, I don't think it is much of a stretch to note that it is not all that different from what Bobby Cox has done with the Braves. The playoffs in baseball, like the NCAA tournament, are subject to a great deal of random variation. The best team wins it all no more than maybe 25&#37; of the time. Running into a "hot" team is almost always death no matter how much better you may be than that team under normal circumstances.

Suggesting that the Braves should get rid of Bobby Cox would, to me, not be all that different from suggesting that Duke should get rid of Coach K. Yes, I am serious.

-Jason "we both know there is about a 0.01% chance that the Braves fire Cox or force him out, so this discussion is just counterproductive anyway" Evans

Bluedawg
08-26-2007, 07:08 AM
Just so we are clear, I have lived in Atlanta for virtually my entire life -- and I am 40 years old. So we have exactly the same perspective on this team. I used to fall asleep at night as a child listening to Braves games on the radio. Biff Pocoroba, Jerry Royster, Jeff Burroughs, and (of course) Dale Murphy and Bob Horner were my early heroes in life.

Make no mistake, I want it all too. The difference is I don't think Bobby Cox is the reason we don't have it all right now. I also think that keeping the team in playoff contention is about all you can ask of a manager. Making the playoffs is all he can really control. Once you get to the playoffs, it is a crapshoot. The best team very rarely wins. The Braves have had extraordinary luck (for the most part) in the regular season under Bobby Cox and they have largely had bad luck in the post season. Those are the breaks. Someday they will work themselves out.

Someone else brought up Coach K and I think it is somewhat similar to Duke. For the most part, from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, K had extraordinarily good fortune and success in the post-season though not quite as much in the regular season. People forget this but during Duke's amazing Final Four run from 1986-94, Duke was not a #1 seed very often. We were good-- very good-- in the regular season but we were generally a team in the second tier during the regular season (with the exceptions of 1986 and 1992). But, we had amazing NCAA tourney success almost always doing better than our seed would indicate.

Compare that with what Duke has been in the past decade. you could pretty much book us for a #1 seed and being ranked #1 in the nation (at least at some point) in something like 9 of the past 11 years (i did not look it up, but this is how it feels to me). Our regular season success has been ridiculous. However, we have quite often failed to live up to post-season expectations. Again, I have not looked it up, but I think that in the past 8 times we have been a #1 seed, we have only made the Final Four three times and we only hae one national title from the past decade even though we have entered the tournament as the favorite to win the title something like 5 or 6 times.

Look, I am not criticizing K or Duke at all-- what we have done the past decade or so has been truly amazing. Still, I don't think it is much of a stretch to note that it is not all that different from what Bobby Cox has done with the Braves. The playoffs in baseball, like the NCAA tournament, are subject to a great deal of random variation. The best team wins it all no more than maybe 25&#37; of the time. Running into a "hot" team is almost always death no matter how much better you may be than that team under normal circumstances.

Suggesting that the Braves should get rid of Bobby Cox would, to me, not be all that different from suggesting that Duke should get rid of Coach K. Yes, I am serious.

-Jason "we both know there is about a 0.01% chance that the Braves fire Cox or force him out, so this discussion is just counterproductive anyway" Evans

Obviously in this case we don't have the same perspective on this team, and I'll just leave it at that.


...there is about a 0.01% chance that the Braves fire Cox or force him out...

But this I can agree with.

dkbaseball
08-26-2007, 11:48 AM
One reason I've heard given for the Braves' falling a bit short of expectations in the post-season over the last several years is that Maddux and Glavine are groove pitchers, with a strong sense of craftsmanship and everyday competitiveness, who have an edge during the regular season, but with the adrenaline surging in the post-season the power athletes gain an edge -- a couple more mph on the fastball, greater concentration at bat, etc.

Might be something to it. Certainly Maddux's post-season numbers fall well short of regular season; not sure about Glavine. It's important to keep in mind just how ordinary Glavine's arm is. He wins because he has the best repeating motion in baseball, just impeccable mechanics and location.

But then again, you could argue that the extra adrenaline would get the big swingers over-hyped, and give the location pitchers an advantage.

In any case, since Glavine and Maddux left, the Braves really haven't had a club that could be expected to go all the way. I'm pretty certain Bobby Cox hasn't been the guy holding them back.

EarlJam
08-26-2007, 02:03 PM
Smoltz and Hudson and three days of cussin'.

-Jason "that's the new slogan in HotLanta" Evans

Did you make that up? That's awesome, perfect and accurate!

Hudson lost last night but he was due to lose one. Hudson, Smoltz and Chipper have carried the team this year.

What I, EarlJam, think someone needs to do right now on the Braves team (be it Cox, Chipper or whoever): CALL THE TEAM OUT!!! GET PISSED!!!!

Stop being so business-like optimistic. It's time for someone to get mad and call it like they see it. I'm talking BOBBY HURLEY HALFTIME AGAINST MICHIGAN IN 1992 TYPE OF MAD!!!

The Braves lack that type of player/coach on this team. Sort of what Kyle Davies was alluding to after his trade.

It's long overdue. GET PISSED SOMEBODY!!!!

-EarlJam

micah75
08-26-2007, 03:00 PM
What I, EarlJam, think someone needs to do right now on the Braves team (be it Cox, Chipper or whoever): CALL THE TEAM OUT!!! GET PISSED!!!!

Yeah, sort of like what Jim Leyland did with the Tigers early last year. Locked the clubhouse doors and aired the room out. Lotsa screaming and cussing. No one was spared. It seemed to be effective, as they went on a winning streak which propelled them towards the World Series.

DevilAlumna
08-26-2007, 10:28 PM
Yeah, sort of like what Jim Leyland did with the Tigers early last year. Locked the clubhouse doors and aired the room out. Lotsa screaming and cussing. No one was spared. It seemed to be effective, as they went on a winning streak which propelled them towards the World Series.

Did he give them the "lollygag" speech?? I love that one.


Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers. What's our record, boy?
Larry: Eight and sixteen.
Skip: 8-16! How did we get there?
Larry: It's a miracle.
Skip: It's a miracle!

dukemomLA
08-27-2007, 03:18 AM
Again, GO METS< GO METS< GO METS!! Sorry, just can't help it. Then again, I'd also like to see the Cubs do something wonderful -- their GREAT fans have gone above and beyond. The number of extraordinary Cubs players who never got a chance at 'the ring' is heartbreaking. (looking forward to the rest of the season, and the post)

Lavabe
08-27-2007, 04:40 AM
Again, GO METS< GO METS< GO METS!! Sorry, just can't help it. Then again, I'd also like to see the Cubs do something wonderful -- their GREAT fans have gone above and beyond. The number of extraordinary Cubs players who never got a chance at 'the ring' is heartbreaking. (looking forward to the rest of the season, and the post)

Cards fans have a saying for the Mutts:
http://www.cardinalsdiaspora.com/?p=557

It started with a radio DJ, JC Corcoran, in the 80's. Letterman picked up on it from a viewer letter from St. Louis, and did an elaborate comparison of the alleged baseball team and the murky residue.

FWIW, the Cubs might indeed do something wonderful, but the Cardinals are now only 2 games behind the Cubs... and STILL under .500! And the Cards have a load of games left with the Cubs ... at Busch!

Cheers,
Lavabe

P.S. Thank you David Wells!

EarlJam
08-27-2007, 09:18 AM
95

//////////////////////////

-EarlJam

JasonEvans
08-27-2007, 09:36 AM
Too brown. Not black enough. They are not toast, they are...

http://www.ryerson.ca/fcad/images/marblemedia_BurntToast1.JPG

throatybeard
08-27-2007, 09:48 AM
The Braves are only 4 out of the WC. There's still a chance for that.

Terry Pendleton's name is "circulating" (whatever that means) for the Royals job:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/18CDE59D6A984188862573440011FF40?OpenDocument

throatybeard
08-27-2007, 10:24 AM
So I ended up going to all three games, though on Sunday only for the last 5 innings. I hadn't seen the Braves live since 1993, the last full season during which I lived in Georgia. (I'm going to the Ted for the first time since the Olympics, next month).

Smoltzy was strong on Friday, but The Birds roughed up Hudson in a single inning on Saturday, and Wainright was masterful on Sunday. Glad the Braves traded him for JD Drew. :rolleyes:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/3CCF722D34DAFA6D862573440011DEF7?OpenDocument

hurleyfor3
08-27-2007, 10:35 AM
The Braves are only 4 out of the WC.

But they're competing against four or five other teams. MUCH harder than if it were just one or two.

Bluedawg
08-27-2007, 10:51 AM
Too brown. Not black enough. They are not toast, they are...

http://www.ryerson.ca/fcad/images/marblemedia_BurntToast1.JPG

What happened to this Jason Evans?


Jason "the notion that the Braves are done is foolish-- yes, they are reeling but there is plenty of baseball still to be played" Evans

I won't count they out until they are mathematically out. We still have 6 games with the Mets.

TillyGalore
08-27-2007, 11:00 AM
At least the Braves have a shot at making the playoffs. :)

hurleyfor3
08-27-2007, 11:05 AM
You folks may want to become Cubs fans this week. They have the opportunity to finally put Milwaukee out of their misery.

JasonEvans
08-27-2007, 11:53 AM
You folks may want to become Cubs fans this week. They have the opportunity to finally put Milwaukee out of their misery.

After the Braves, the team I am rooting for the most is the Cubs. They deserve some success.

I still think the Braves can turn it around and am not giving up on them. I was just having fun with the Toast post above.

--Jason "the Braves do need to get hot-- they need a streak of 4 or 5 in a row and 8 out of 10... soon" Evans

Dukerati
08-27-2007, 12:13 PM
Did you make that up? That's awesome, perfect and accurate!

Hudson lost last night but he was due to lose one. Hudson, Smoltz and Chipper have carried the team this year.

What I, EarlJam, think someone needs to do right now on the Braves team (be it Cox, Chipper or whoever): CALL THE TEAM OUT!!! GET PISSED!!!!

Stop being so business-like optimistic. It's time for someone to get mad and call it like they see it. I'm talking BOBBY HURLEY HALFTIME AGAINST MICHIGAN IN 1992 TYPE OF MAD!!!

The Braves lack that type of player/coach on this team. Sort of what Kyle Davies was alluding to after his trade.

It's long overdue. GET PISSED SOMEBODY!!!!

-EarlJam


I don't know if getting pissed will help. Will anger and temper tantrums help our pitchers throw better? I think the answer is obvious here: genetically clone hudson and smoltz.

EarlJam
08-29-2007, 04:43 PM
109

Right-Handed starter Buddy "stinky arm" Carlyle

-EarlJam

P.S. To be fair, he's done much better than #4s and 5.

Lavabe
08-29-2007, 05:24 PM
Wow... EarlJam... You need some cheering up. After all, if you're not cheering for the Braves when the Mutts come to town, who will?

Hopefully this will work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFK9Vtj-Tzc

[Note: One verse has one mention of one of George Carlin's 7 words]

Cheers,
Lavabe

P.S. In all honesty, I prefer the Life of Brian version.

YmoBeThere
08-29-2007, 05:48 PM
now is the time to say it:

There is always next year!

rthomas
08-29-2007, 05:48 PM
109

Right-Handed starter Buddy "stinky arm" Carlyle

-EarlJam

P.S. To be fair, he's done much better than #4s and 5.

yea, Atlanta Braves may not be going great this year. But you can always reminisce OR you can look forward. Football starts next week. Atlanta should be pretty good...oh...wait..nevermind.

Lavabe
08-29-2007, 06:05 PM
ATL has actually done well vs. the Mutts this year (for that matter, each year, except the last). We'll know after the Labor Day Weekend series in ATL.

Unfortunately, ATL now has to worry about the Phillies as well.

In the words of SPAMALOT, "They are not dead yet." Hey ... look at the Cardinals! The Yankees and the M's are also making runs. There is still a lot of ball to be played.

Cheers,
Lavabe

wilson
08-29-2007, 06:47 PM
In the words of SPAMALOT, "They are not dead yet." Hey ... look at the Cardinals!
Cheers,
Lavabe

You're right. To quote Billy Crystal from "The Princess Bride," they're only mostly dead.

DevilAlumna
08-29-2007, 07:15 PM
The Yankees and the M's are also making runs.

The M's run has come to a drastic, screeching halt over their past three games. Going into their home series with the Angels, the M's were only two games back on them... three games (including one blown 6 run lead, some atrocious pitching, and little offense) later, they are now 5 games back. It was depressing. They were looking so good until Monday night!

captmojo
08-29-2007, 09:19 PM
Timely hitting and some good pitching. I am very impressed with Manny Acosta. This kid threw a 2-2 fork ball to Cabbrera in the 7th that made my head spin. When I saw it I said to myself, "How did he lay off swinging at that?". Then Joe Simpson said basically the same thing and TV replayed the pitch. Acosta had all the mechanics, delivery and movement that I had seen from Jack Morris years ago, a thing of deceptive beauty. Then it hit me. He tips that forker off because his complexion is so dark that his fingers are too early and easily visible. I don't suppose there is anything he can do about that but if he could, here's a kid that can be a long term killer.

It's too late to settle for winning 2 of 3 per series. This team needs some sweeps. I've seen some marvelous September collapses before.

EarlJam
09-02-2007, 08:48 PM
That is all.

-EarlJam

captmojo
09-02-2007, 08:56 PM
You still must not hate. Just don't like this year's edition. There's still room for hope for the future. It just ain't happening this year.

NovaScotian
09-02-2007, 09:11 PM
i, for one, can say that i have always hated the bravos and their dirty, dirty ways. this sweep is only one of many signals of the sweeping changes to come.
m-e-t-s mets mets mets!

ps chipper jones wets the bed.

Bluedawg
09-02-2007, 09:15 PM
It just ain't happening this year.

Or as long as Bobby Cox is manager

YmoBeThere
09-02-2007, 09:38 PM
Dale Murphy-Bob Horner era Braves. Always good for a few wins. Hated the '91 Braves, caught us(Dodgers) at the end of the season. I have been indifferent to other editions of the Braves, though they let me see my Dodgers here on the east coast a few times a year.

Channing
09-02-2007, 10:09 PM
Or as long as Bobby Cox is manager

Coach K hasn't taken Duke past the Sweet 16 since 2004. I guess they are never getting any further as long as K is at the helm.

YmoBeThere
09-02-2007, 10:11 PM
Coach K hasn't taken Duke past the Sweet 16 since 2004. I guess they are never getting any further as long as K is at the helm.

Well, yes...haha. Sports related emotions and predictions of doom can be a bit overdone can't they?

wilson
09-02-2007, 10:41 PM
i, for one, can say that i have always hated the bravos and their dirty, dirty ways. this sweep is only one of many signals of the sweeping changes to come.
m-e-t-s mets mets mets!

ps chipper jones wets the bed.

The mutts and all of their attendant crappiness are beneath me. I hope you die.
Not really. But I hope your air conditioning breaks or something equally unpleasant.

EarlJam
09-02-2007, 10:50 PM
The mutts and all of their attendant crappiness are beneath me. I hope you die.
Not really. But I hope your air conditioning breaks or something equally unpleasant.

Wilson, don't pull the punch. I echo Wilson's comments, and, as a Braves fan, hope all Mets posters on this board perish............horribly......and soon.

-EarlJam

wilson
09-02-2007, 11:14 PM
And also, Chipper does not wet the bed. He merely owns the mutts so thoroughly that he saw fit to name his child after your dump of a stadium. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
It appears that your team is indeed on the way to its second straight division title. Now you only have twelve more to go. And no way are the mutts winning the Series this year either.

YmoBeThere
09-02-2007, 11:17 PM
And no way are the mutts winning the Series this year either.

Not a Metropolitans fan, but couldn't this comment be turned around on the Bravos? Even with all their division titles?

wilson
09-02-2007, 11:25 PM
1. Black on sports uniforms is terrible, making your silly little interloping team manifestly inferior to mine.
2. The '69 mutts were a fraud. The Cubs choked.
3. Ditto the '86 mutts, except that time, the red sux choked.
4. Your stadium is smack in the middle of the flight pattern for JFK airport (like Shea, a dump). Pathetic.
5. Your stadium is located in a place called "Flushing." The jokes there are so obvious, I won't even bother to make them.
6. Your first base coach, Rickey Henderson, somehow managed to return to your pitiful little team after departing ignominiously as a player because he sat in the clubhouse playing cards as your pitcher walked in the winning run during the NLCS (I was there; it was glorious). This is doubly pitiful .
7. Your first base coach also doesn't know what a first-person pronoun is.
8. Your silly mascot has cranial elephantiasis.
9. Pedro still has a Jheri curl.

wilson
09-02-2007, 11:28 PM
Not a Metropolitans fan, but couldn't this comment be turned around on the Bravos? Even with all their division titles?

Stop tainting my sour-grapes pissy mood with logic. Nobody asked you anyway.

Lavabe
09-03-2007, 05:42 AM
EarlJam: Devildeac and I fried in the centerfield pavillion sun yesterday, watching the Bravos rest firmly in their offensive slumber.

The Braves have no one but themselves to blame. Here are four game-changing blown chances from yesterday:

Bases loaded, no out, and Tom Glavine reeling ... and the best that could be done was one run. YCCH!

Yunell couldn't find a pair of sunglasses. The ball was popped up to him, and the ball plopped a foot or three to where he was standing. Two batters later in the same inning, Smoltz gave up a home run. One run given to the Mutts.

In the 6th or 7th, Texeira tried legging his single into a double, but was thrown out by Moises Alou. It changed the complexion of everything. Two batters later that inning the Braves made a single.

Julio Franco came up as a pinch hitter ... batting average 212!! JULIO FRANCO?!?!?! Pete Orr came up as a pinch hitter ... batting average below 200. Neither could lay down a bunt, much less advance a runner. Do the Braves not have a pinch hitter with an average above 220? Doesn't one of their pitchers have a better batting average?

The Mutts deserve a painful loss in the NLCS/NLDS. The repeated flying posterior cheek kissing they did when they won the game yesterday is MUCH worse than any sort of flying chest thumping.

I wish for nothing less than collective root canal for the Mutts and their fans.

Boos,
Lavabe

Lavabe
09-03-2007, 06:13 AM
4. Your stadium is smack in the middle of the flight pattern for JFK airport (like Shea, a dump). Pathetic.

Let's be correct: it's LaGuardia.


8. Your silly mascot has cranial elephantiasis.

Umm... I hate to say this, but separated at birth, the Braves and Mutts horrific mascots:
http://www.metsblog.com/images/BravesMascot.gifhttp://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/mr.met.jpg

Mr. Mutt gave me nightmares when I was growing up. I also remember Mrs. Mutt.

Cheers,
Lavabe

NovaScotian
09-03-2007, 06:50 AM
1. Black on sports uniforms is terrible, making your silly little interloping team manifestly inferior to mine.
2. The '69 mutts were a fraud. The Cubs choked.
3. Ditto the '86 mutts, except that time, the red sux choked.
4. Your stadium is smack in the middle of the flight pattern for JFK airport (like Shea, a dump). Pathetic.
5. Your stadium is located in a place called "Flushing." The jokes there are so obvious, I won't even bother to make them.
6. Your first base coach, Rickey Henderson, somehow managed to return to your pitiful little team after departing ignominiously as a player because he sat in the clubhouse playing cards as your pitcher walked in the winning run during the NLCS (I was there; it was glorious). This is doubly pitiful .
7. Your first base coach also doesn't know what a first-person pronoun is.
8. Your silly mascot has cranial elephantiasis.
9. Pedro still has a Jheri curl.

may i offer a rebuttal:

1)black is terrible i agree (www.ditchtheblack.com), but honestly, this coming from a team with those HIDEOUS red tops?
2) the 69 mets totaly owned
3) the 86 mets were the best team in the HISTORY of drunk messes
4) its actually laguardia, not jfk. and the airport is fined for every plane that flies over
5) flushing meadows is one of the most culturally diverse neighborhoods in queens, but whats more is that Shea is actually in Corona. make that dirty, i dare you.
6/7) rickey henderson is the best player of his generation and any of his excentricities or rhetorical devices provide more entertainment and are far less offensive then those of that racist John Rocker
8) our mascot is silly indeed, but he doesnt offend an entire race of people
9) pedro is still cooler than anyone who has ever played for the braves. and you will all become witness to that this afternoon when he punishes the reds in his dramatic return.

that is all. GO METS

Lavabe
09-03-2007, 08:30 AM
2) the 69 mets totaly owned

Ed Charles, Bud Harrelson, Jerry Grote, Cleon Jones, Boswell, Shamsky, and Don Clendenon were unstoppable in September. Pitching? Terriffic. Relievers? Ya gotta believe. Agreed.

However, I caution your assessment based on two names:
Ed Kranepool & Ron Swoboda.

In the pantheon of teams, 69's Mutts were one-year wonders. Soon after '69, A's (Rudi, Jackson, Campy, Bando, Hunter, Fingers) and Big Red Machine were superior.


9) pedro is still cooler than anyone who has ever played for the braves. and you will all become witness to that this afternoon when he punishes the reds in his dramatic return.

Pedro vs. Zimmer! THAT'S cool! :rolleyes:

How about this image of Pedro:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Pedro_Mart%C3%ADnez_Peace.jpg/200px-Pedro_Mart%C3%ADnez_Peace.jpg

Sorry, if you're neither Slick Watts nor John McEnroe, DON'T WEAR A HEADBAND!

Deion Sanders and Dave Justice were way cooler than Pedro could ever hope to be. Sorry, curl and all, Pedro still has to live with the legacy of shoving an old coach and wearing an Expo hat.

FWIW, Wagner yesterday was one hurt/spent puppy, and he has had a bad stretch (see Phillies). The Mutts rested him two days before yesterday. Something is NOT right with him.

Cheers,
Lavabe

captmojo
09-03-2007, 10:45 AM
3) the 86 mets were the best team in the HISTORY of drunk messes


The '86 Mets robbed Houston of a shot to the series.ROBBED, I repeat. The tying run allowed in the 9th should not have been allowed due to the fact that the ump missed the double play force at first so the run could score. Get that call right and it's game over, Astros prevail.

wilson
09-03-2007, 04:16 PM
9) pedro is still cooler than anyone who has ever played for the braves.


Your rebuttals are duly noted, and many of my criticisms were admittedly the pouty results of a foul mood.
But this assertion regarding Pedro is false, false, false. He is not cool. He is not even that good anymore. If he does manage to get into the HOF, he won't even do it as a mutt.

NovaScotian
09-03-2007, 05:12 PM
The '86 Mets robbed Houston of a shot to the series.ROBBED, I repeat. The tying run allowed in the 9th should not have been allowed due to the fact that the ump missed the double play force at first so the run could score. Get that call right and it's game over, Astros prevail.

I fully beg to differ on the account that Mike Scott is a dirty dirty ball scuffing cheater, who i believe has all but admitted to scuffing balls during that season.

oh and by the way, pedro is back, and after some initial jitters, hes ready to continue kicking I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. i know in my heart of hearts that you bravo fans out there (and silly phillie phans, too) are shaking in your timbs right about now, since we have five (count em) SICK starters for the rest of the season.

oh and another thing, since when hasthis guy (http://youcantmakeitup.blogspot.com/2005/03/funniest-infomercial-of-all-time.html) been cool? and for the record, anyone who at the frustration of fans comes out and says "They (Yankee fans) can't get any rougher on us unless they show up with Uzis," is the OPPOSITE of cool.

Now, to demonstrate Pedro's coolness look no further than the picture above - do you think he gives a damn that you dont like his headband? also this (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=1282284&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym.).
watch the video if youve got time, right around the 38 minute mark.

go METS

Lavabe
09-03-2007, 06:55 PM
oh and another thing, since when hasthis guy (http://youcantmakeitup.blogspot.com/2005/03/funniest-infomercial-of-all-time.html) been cool? and for the record, anyone who at the frustration of fans comes out and says "They (Yankee fans) can't get any rougher on us unless they show up with Uzis," is the OPPOSITE of cool.

Now, to demonstrate Pedro's coolness look no further than the picture above - do you think he gives a damn that you dont like his headband? also this (http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051214&content_id=1282284&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym.).
watch the video if youve got time, right around the 38 minute mark.

go METS

Funny... the video link had an opening commercial that talked about former Brave Hank Aaron. Nice link!

To be honest, your #9 cool remark was in response to Wilson's Jheri curl remark. I continued with Wilson's fashion statement. Neon Deion (pre-Tim McCarver splash down) was known for his clothes ... and if I am not mistaken a fedora and a Jheri curl. But really, hot dog Deion? Shall we discuss former Mutts and their commercials?

FWIW, the photo of Pedro was his Wiki photo from this afternoon, sans Jheri curl. I guess you can wear a headband after Labor Day!;)

Justice was pure cool in the 1995 World Series, calling out the Atlanta fans, then backing it up in the winning game.

Sorry, but Pedro's Don Zimmer knockdown was as uncool as it gets (ahhh... that was before he became a Mutt). I guess now that he is a Mutt, he is a righteous dude, eh?:D

Pedro in his prime (Expos/Red Sox days) was a solid pitcher with 3 Cy Youngs. We'll see if he has some more left in him. Given Wagner's troubles (and given the Mutts depth in starters), Pedro might be amazing in the bullpen ... a la Smoltz. Sounds crazy, but if you only need three starters in the post-season, I don't think he ranks higher now than Glavine and Maine. If El Duque is okay by the postseason, Pedro might be scary as a reliever. I used to think Wagner was scary, until I saw him yesterday. He is NOT himself lately.

So what was it about the Phillies that made them sweep the Mutts (and where were those Mutts in the Braves series)?

Glavine got a VERY respectable round of applause at the Ted. VERY few boos. Glad to see him get applause ... although I wish he had been knocked out of the game sooner.

Cheers,
Lavabe

captmojo
09-03-2007, 09:13 PM
I fully beg to differ on the account that Mike Scott is a dirty dirty ball scuffing cheater, who i believe has all but admitted to scuffing balls during that season.

...I think he did scuff balls. Heck, he might have scratched them too.:rolleyes: We don't have an argument here. Ball scuffing does not change the fact that from the angle I had on TV, the twin killing was complete. Replays were not shown at the time. Editors had decided that it was more important at the time, to show the tying run crossing the plate only.

PS-I don't imply for one moment that Houston would have won over the RedSox.

NovaScotian
09-03-2007, 09:43 PM
PS-I don't imply for one moment that Houston would have won over the RedSox.

yea, you BETTER not.
go METS
go PEDRO
BOO CHIPPER

captmojo
09-05-2007, 03:57 PM
"Phillies blow one for the ages!"- Chip Carey

9-8, Braves start 8th inning down 8-2. Great comeback. It ain't over till it's over.


Still might be over.:cool:

throatybeard
09-05-2007, 05:03 PM
Well, we suck, but at least we took the Phillies out of the WC.

Duvall
07-04-2010, 05:21 PM
Unfortunately, most of those years will be spent in the Bronx. [Teixeira]'s only going to play 200 games for Atlanta, assuming he stays healthy.

Terrible, terrible trade.

Congratulations to Elvis Andrus and Neftali Felix on their first All-Star selections!