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View Full Version : Is UNC a concern for 2010-11 MBB?



hedevil
04-16-2010, 07:24 PM
I'm sure most of you, like myself, have a friend or someone you know who is a UNC fan. One of my friends with this disorder is in my ear non stop about how well the Heels are going to bounce back next year and dominate the ACC. Do I have cause for concern?

Honestly, I don't see it. Improve? Yes. Dominate? No. Am I wrong to believe that our (duke) returning players have more to offer than theirs? Duke is returning six players from a NC team, while they're returning as the runners up of the NIT championship game. Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I probably am), but didn't they have seven or so All Americans this year? We know now that Davis is gone, however, they are adding three new AA's.

The way I see it (this is only my opinion), the fact that Kyrie will have the ball in his hands, he will likely have as much impact on a game as HB. Due to experience, Curry's presence should have a larger impact in most games than Bullock (freshman), and Nolan as of today is a better all around player than Marshall. I haven't even added in Hairston, Felix, and Thornton. As far as Dre, Kelly, and the Plums, I just see their experience on the big stage (NCAA, though limited experience) as being an advantage for DUKE over UNC throughout this season. I don't think the Heels are ready to take the ACC crown, but they will probably be Duke's most formidable opponent. I feel confident, but not overly.

Is there cause for concern?

miramar
04-16-2010, 07:54 PM
UNC will definitely be better, but a lot depends on how much their current players improve from one year to the next and how much their freshmen contribute their first year, which is always problematic.

While their fans can probably take heart from reaching the NIT final, at least in comparison to the way they played during the regular season, that is hardly a major achievement. The beat William and Mary by 8 at home, and then beat Mississippi State by only two. Then they beat a pretty mediocre UAB team by only five, and scored 60 points in the process. In New York they beat Rhode Island by one in OT, after scoring only 59 in regulation, and then lost to Dayton in the final. The teams that Carolina played in the NIT finished their regular season slightly over .500 and a normal UNC team would have blown them out by 20.

So I wouldn't count them out since I am sure they will be much better, but a lot of very positive things will have to happen for them to be a top ten team again. Of course, we could have said the same thing about Duke winning the national championship this year so it's not impossible, but it will be tough.

I must say I'm surprised that your friend is still talking with a mouth full of humble pie.

CDu
04-16-2010, 08:27 PM
Is there cause for concern?

Concern may not be the right word (there's nothing we can do about it). But of course there's a reasonable chance that UNC returns to the top of the conference. UNC has a lot of talent returning. They also have a top-5 recruiting class that specifically addresses one of their two biggest weaknesses (perimeter scoring threats). It's possible that another year of experience for Drew and Strickland and/or the addition of Marshall will address their other major problem (ballhandling and decisionmaking).

Considering that we are going to lose guys who totaled either 50+% or 70+% of the minutes played in the Final Four (depending on whether Singler leaves), there's really no reason to assume we'll be dominant again next year (there's reason to say it's possible, but to expect an entirely new team to return to the Final Four is a big assumption).

In other words, both teams will look very different next year than they did this year. And both teams will have lots of talent and depth. It's very possible that UNC could be better than us next year. Do I think it's likely? No. But it's not a completely unrealistic possibility.

airowe
04-16-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm concerned about the unc players' ankles being broken at least twice next year beginning in February.

Kind of concerned.

crote
04-16-2010, 08:43 PM
One interesting feature on next year's UNC team will be the size of their back court. Marshall and Strickland are both 6-3 or so, and Bullock and Barnes are in the 6-6 range, as is Graves if you want to count him as a back court player. That's a tall 1-2-3, and gives the Heels good height at all five positions and off the bench, especially compared to Duke, which stands a good chance at starting 6-0, 6-0, 6-1.

I realize a lot of those heights belong to freshman, but it still gives a coach something to work with. It'll be interesting to see if Roy is able to take advantage of that. This past season seemed to suggest that Huck needs a very specific kind of player (particularly a quick PG) to run his system well, and struggles to adjust to personnel that is talented but lacks the specific traits featured by the likes of Felton and Lawson. By most reports, Marshall isn't a prototypical "Roy Williams Point Guard." I'm curious to see if Roy has grown enough as a coach to leverage his players' talents into wins, even if it's not quite the variety of talent he has historically won with.

sagegrouse
04-16-2010, 08:58 PM
I assume the ACC will be full of good teams and expect UNC to be really good. We'll see what happens.

UNC has a hill to climb because, even the though the Heels had talent this year, they were not a good team. Duke has almost never gone from truly mediocre to outstanding without a year or two of rebuilding. Maybe UNC will be different, but it is a steep hill.

We'll see.

sagegrouse

MrBisonDevil
04-16-2010, 09:16 PM
UNC should be good. They should be in the upper quarter of ACC. I'm never worried about UNC. I only focus on Duke's progression.

It was fun to watch UNC falter this year but I would not want to see that consistently. UNC vs Duke is much better when both teams are highly ranked. My dream season would have Duke undefeated and UNC with 4 losses (all to Duke: 2 reg season, 1 ACC champ and 1 NCAA champ).

OZZIE4DUKE
04-16-2010, 09:19 PM
Depends
Miramar has it right. carolina fans will have to wear Depends next year! :eek::p:D

hedevil
04-16-2010, 09:20 PM
My friend Johnny (I can post his name being that there are a million out there) is so caught up in UNC's new additions that I never hear the end. I can understand where he's coming from, being that I feel the same about our new class. Unfortunately for him, the Heels set the bar pretty low, therefore there is only room to improve based on their standards. Truly though if I were a Heel (cringe) I don't think I'd be talking so much beforehand. I mean his arguments drift off into, "Our 09 team would kill this Duke team, yadda yadda." Have any of you heard this kind of irrelevant rhetoric before? Well I could argue that the 01' team would beat the 09' team and so on and so forth. At the end of he day we'll see how these two matchup this season. I'm hoping the guys can push this up to four in a row. I like our chances.


GO DEVILS

MChambers
04-16-2010, 09:21 PM
I assume the ACC will be full of good teams and expect UNC to be really good. We'll see what happens.

UNC has a hill to climb because, even the though the Heels had talent this year, they were not a good team. Duke has almost never gone from truly mediocre to outstanding without a year or two of rebuilding. Maybe UNC will be different, but it is a steep hill.

We'll see.

sagegrouse

Yes, UNC will have more Mickie D's than any team in the history of college basketball, but that didn't seem to help last year. Yes, Barnes and Bullock seem to be very talented and should help address one of UNC's major weaknesses last year, outside shooting. On the other hand, the point guard issue may not be resolved. Plus, the inside game may be weaker, unless Zeller and Henson make major progress (but they could do that). And it's not clear that the coach can adjust his system to fit his players.

UNC was ranked ahead of Duke last fall, just to help put this in perspective.

I think you should tell any UNC acquaintances that it will be very difficult to compete with UNC, given the abundance of talent on the UNC roster. Don't tell them, but I still like Duke's chances. . .

SupaDave
04-16-2010, 09:36 PM
UNC will definitely be better, but a lot depends on how much their current players improve from one year to the next and how much their freshmen contribute their first year, which is always problematic.

While their fans can probably take heart from reaching the NIT final, at least in comparison to the way they played during the regular season, that is hardly a major achievement. The beat William and Mary by 8 at home, and then beat Mississippi State by only two. Then they beat a pretty mediocre UAB team by only five, and scored 60 points in the process. In New York they beat Rhode Island by one in OT, after scoring only 59 in regulation, and then lost to Dayton in the final. The teams that Carolina played in the NIT finished their regular season slightly over .500 and a normal UNC team would have blown them out by 20.

Excellent statement. It's gonna take more than a hot shot freshmen to get them back to this UNC. Next year they will win those one or two point games b/c I truly think HB is that good. However, those games will be against middle of the pack competition - and NC State. They wont lose to Coastal Carolina again.

We present a whole other beast and will continue to do so for the next few years. A split could be very possible but other than that they have MUCHO to work on in the coming months and very many competitive practices for starting positions...

Honestly, I'm more worried about NC State who should be much improved. Wake Forest is a sleeper with some great recruits coming in and a new coach. Clemson with Booker will be dangerous. UVA is probably a team to watch. After that it's anyone's guess. As I pondered the rest of the ACC it occured to me that there are many teams in flux.

sandinmyshoes
04-16-2010, 09:37 PM
UNC's talent this coming season should be a lot less redundant than last year. Most of it was in the frontcourt, and then that got devastated by injuries. Just staying healthy would be a big improvement.

Davis leaving for the NBA will create a talent hit. Hensen might be able to cover that. We'll see.

I just don't see them being dominant, but they'll be in the mix.

roywhite
04-16-2010, 09:38 PM
Yes, UNC will have more Mickie D's than any team in the history of college basketball, but that didn't seem to help last year. Yes, Barnes and Bullock seem to be very talented and should help address one of UNC's major weaknesses last year, outside shooting. On the other hand, the point guard issue may not be resolved. Plus, the inside game may be weaker, unless Zeller and Henson make major progress (but they could do that). And it's not clear that the coach can adjust his system to fit his players.

UNC was ranked ahead of Duke last fall, just to help put this in perspective.

I think you should tell any UNC acquaintances that it will be very difficult to compete with UNC, given the abundance of talent on the UNC roster. Don't tell them, but I still like Duke's chances. . .

The Heels are trying to move out of 10th place in the league. I think they are hoping for the "Most Improved" award. Oh, wait...they don't give banners for that?

MarkD83
04-16-2010, 09:57 PM
I think UNC should be number 1 in the nation. In fact if they don't go undefeated the Ram's Club should start a petition to fire Roy.

Duvall
04-16-2010, 10:04 PM
I think you should tell any UNC acquaintances that it will be very difficult to compete with UNC, given the abundance of talent on the UNC roster.

Yup.

UNC will have the most McDonald's All-Americans of any team in the history of the sport (perhaps more than twice as many as Duke); experienced players at the point and the pivot, the #1 high school senior in the country and a Hall of Fame coach. If they aren't the top team in the ACC - nay, the top team in the country....

...why, then there must be something wrong with them.

kyriecrazy2013
04-16-2010, 10:06 PM
...especially compared to Duke, which stands a good chance at starting 6-0, 6-0, 6-1.

Who on Duke's team would be starting this short? Nolan is 6-2 and Seth is 6-1, Andre is 6-4, and Kyrie is 6-2 and tyler thornton is 6-2...

roywhite
04-16-2010, 10:14 PM
Yup.

UNC will have the most McDonald's All-Americans of any team in the history of the sport (perhaps more than twice as many as Duke); experienced players at the point and the pivot, the #1 high school senior in the country and a Hall of Fame coach. If they aren't the top team in the ACC - nay, the top team in the country....

...why, then there must be something wrong with them.

How many McDonald A-A's?

So many Micky-D burger boys that that the Golden Arches will be erected to span the Dean Dome...Leslie McDonald has changed his name to Ronald McDonald...healthy low-calorie alternatives will be known as Henson meals...the freshmen get special deals on Kiddie meals...and Will Graves gets to super-size his order of fries.

ba--dump...

-bdbd
04-16-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm sure most of you, like myself, have a friend or someone you know who is a UNC fan. One of my friends with this disorder is in my ear non stop about how well the Heels are going to bounce back next year and dominate the ACC. Do I have cause for concern?

ANSWER: This is typical Kerlina bullying behavior. The big bad bully got pretty humbled this year. So, what's a bully to do? Yep, kinda forget about this whole year ever happening and leep yapping away about "next" year. Will they be better? Maybe, maybe not. The issue at Kerlina ain't talent - their humongous money/facillities, "tradition" and in-state media/fandom ensure that. The issue is poor chemistry, attitude and coaching. Three more freshman don't cure all of that gone wrong in one year.


Honestly, I don't see it. Improve? Yes. Dominate? No. Am I wrong to believe that our (duke) returning players have more to offer than theirs? Duke is returning six players from a NC team, while they're returning as the runners up of the NIT championship game. Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I probably am), but didn't they have seven or so All Americans this year? We know now that Davis is gone, however, they are adding three new AA's.

ANSWER: Remind your friend where Kerlina finished the regular season this year - tied for next-to-last place (!!). So improving over that says absolutely nothing. If Kerlina was soooo awful this year with 7 McD's AA's, how much better can they be with 9?? Seems to me that you can't play any more than FIVE of them, so sounds like more of the same - 5 dysfunctional AA's on the court with a poor bench coach. Freshmen are just that - FRESHMEN. Only one of them is an unquestionable talent, or even likely to start. So your friend is betting the ranch, essentially, on one Frosh player to turn around the whole decaying program?? Yeah, good luck with that! PLease refer said heels to your good friend BDBD who has some real estate in south Florida he'd like to sell them too...


The way I see it (this is only my opinion), the fact that Kyrie will have the ball in his hands, he will likely have as much impact on a game as HB. Due to experience, Curry's presence should have a larger impact in most games than Bullock (freshman), and Nolan as of today is a better all around player than Marshall. I haven't even added in Hairston, Felix, and Thornton. As far as Dre, Kelly, and the Plums, I just see their experience on the big stage (NCAA, though limited experience) as being an advantage for DUKE over UNC throughout this season. I don't think the Heels are ready to take the ACC crown, but they will probably be Duke's most formidable opponent. I feel confident, but not overly.

ANSWER: Look, I am a realistic, and frequently caution other posters here over "Duke colored glasses." But these NC@CH fans are just unbelievable, and apparently haven't fully appreciated their course of humble pie. Will they be at the top of the ACC - not. They're just as likely as not to be humbled once agaiin while the Freshmen learn their roles and Roy's "system." Oh, and if one of them wants to bet you that "11th place ACC, .500 regular season" Kerlina will do better than the defending national champs, well, TAKE THE BET!! :D


Is there cause for concern?
ANSWER: NO.

ACCBBallFan
04-16-2010, 10:24 PM
I think there are some parallels to GA Tech who went from unlucky 2-14 two years ago to 7-9 this year.

Harrison Barnes will have an impact but perhaps no more than than a big man like Derrick Favors. Kendall Marshall may have an impact like Mfon Udofia and Bullock would possibly be like Glen Rice Jr or Brain Oliver.

The UNC best returnees are not as good as Gani Lawal and Iman Shumpert but if their coach can adapt better, he is much better than Paul Hewitt.

So perhaps a 5 game improvement to get to 10 wins, good enough for top third of ACC but not likely the top spot. Their PG spot is no better than when Duke had Greg Paulus and thier post spots are not deep, similar ot how Duke was before Zoubs blossomed with no one as big or unmovable as Zoubek, no one as good defensively as Lance or McClure, perhpasa the same post depth concerns as Duke next year with only four guys.

In general the ACC will be down next year and again toip heavy with Duke UNC and another team or two, perhaps VA Tech and FSU. BC chances took a hit with Rakim Sanders x-fer as they had a lot of seniors returning a lot like MD this year, but with a new coach who did well for Cornell.

If NC State lands CJ Leslie to go with Tracy Smith and if Dorenxzo Brown qualifies to go with Harrow and Scott Wood, Wolk Pack could be inthe 10 ACC wins range next year too, but it appears to be Duke's ACC championship to lose nexzt year.

I have not yet looked at it from an ACC unbalanced schedule perspective.

amat1129
04-16-2010, 10:34 PM
henson is a big part to how well they do, if he improves the way most people think he will he should have a breakout year

cptnflash
04-16-2010, 10:52 PM
UNC is definitely a threat to retake the ACC crown next year. There is a TON of talent leaving the conference due to graduation, transfer, and early entry into the NBA (or the D league in some cases). If Kyle leaves, we're losing 80% of our starting five and more than half of our scoring. Sound familiar? It's what happened to Carolina this year. Granted, we have talented players coming in to fill the holes, but so did UNC, at least on paper. I'm in no way predicting that we'll be as bad next year as they were this year, but unless Kyle comes back I don't think it's reasonable to call us the favorite.

This year was a worst case scenario for UNC, as they got hit by a nearly perfect storm of inexperience, stubborn coaching, team chemistry issues, and injuries. Simple regression to the mean tells us that things won't be nearly as bad next year. And their upside is scary good:

Tyler Zeller has been hurt his first two years, just like Zoubek was. What if Zeller's "ah-ha" moment comes next year? Suddenly UNC has a skilled 7-footer playing 25 to 30 minutes a game at the 5.

Henson is a freak of nature and has the potential to dominate on the defensive end. His offense is still raw, obviously, but should improve with practice and experience. And he's got a Plumlee-esque mean streak.

Harrison Barnes is the truth. There's a reason Coach K (and all of us) wanted him so badly.

There are still question marks on the perimeter, and if UNC once again fails to live up to its collective potential, perimeter play will be the reason. But they've got a ton of talent out there too, and if they get things sorted out... yikes.

mattman91
04-16-2010, 10:52 PM
Why would UNC be a concern? I mean really. look at our team, even without Kyle. We are way more talented, proven, and obviously better coached than them. They arent losing much in their senior class but Ed Davis (who I think is waaaay overrated) is gone now, leaving the Wear brothers and Henson as their only bigs.... i mean really???? Look at their point guard. Larry Drew? really??? worst pg UNC has had since Q.T. "Prince Hairy" as some of you call him better be freakin Lebron James or they are once again Screwed. :p

Bob Green
04-16-2010, 11:21 PM
Do I have cause for concern?

I never waste effort being concerned about Carolina. Year in and Year out, Duke and Carolina compete for the top spot in the ACC. Each program has won two National Championships in the last 10 years. Occassionally, one team or the other has a bad year, such as Carolina in 2010 and 2002, and Duke in 1995. No big deal.

Carolina will be better next year but they've serious questions to answer before the Carolina faithful can claim they will contend for the ACC Championship. While Harrison Barnes will immediately make an impact at the wing, the point guard position is still a concern with Larry Drew II and Kendall Marshall competing for the keys to Roy Williams' high octane offense. There is no guarantee either Drew or Marshall can perform at an acceptable level. Moreover, with the departure of Deon Thompson and Ed Davis, Carolina's frontcourt is questionable. John Henson should make the standard freshman to sophomore improvement but Ty Zeller is injury prone and the Wear twins were not all that impressive.

As far as our defending National Champion Duke Blue Devils go, we are losing three and probably four starters. That's a lot of experience gone and experience wins championships. In addition to returning starter Nolan Smith, we have solid players from the National Championship team ready to step up and play an increased role. Miles Plumlee, Mason Plumlee, Andre Dawkins, and Ryan Kelly; plus transfer Seth Curry and JUCO player Carrick Felix. Add in highly regarded freshman point guard Kyrie Irving, and Josh Hairston and Tyler Thornton and the outlook in Durham is bright.

The bottom line is do not be concerned about Carolina but rather feed off the rivalry and get ready to enjoy another year of great college basketball on Tobacco Road. When your friend talks smack, talk smack right back at him.

gumbomoop
04-17-2010, 12:26 AM
Charter member and Corresponding Secretary of Loony Optimists League [LOL] checking in here. Duke clear preseason #1 in ACC, even without KS. With KS, preseason #1 nationallly, and 16-0/15-1 in ACC. KI is amazing, not overrated. NS for stability, multi-threat O, great D. SC and DD for instant O. MPs, esp MP2, will explode. Yes, questions re Bigs-depth, but RK is a comer, a player, passer, shooter, and, yes, rebounder.

A near-total-makeover team, different O and D from '09-'10 Champs, but so much talent that will be disciplined by K's comprehensive approach. That is, K thinks about every nuance. Every nuance: X/O, total season prep, season-segments-strategies [3-S!], individual and team psychology and emotional intelligence. [Contrast Roy, esp when things go south.] K is going to be so energized by National Team/Olympics project, and then by the totally-positive puzzle of how to get young talent to explode on O, and play every play on D. K is going to be so excited, positive vibes all 'round from NC and National Team project. When he tells everyone who wonders if he's slowing down, he's answered honestly, he cannot wait. Absolutely cannot wait; kid in a candy shop happy. We should be, as well.

1. Top-tier: Duke clear #1, then UNC; only these 2 could plausibly reach 12-4
2. 2d tier challengers to UNC for #2: FSU and VaT, if key players stay
3. 3d tier, middle-muddle, but in this order: Miami, NCS, Md, Clem, BC
4. bottom tier: GaT, Wake, UVa. I think Bennett will be first-rate, but it'll take a few years

As to UNC specifically, several posters above have nicely highlighted ?-marks, without ignoring the real talent over there. The most intriguing ? to me is leadership, in several ways: (1) The coach - How much was he responsible for this season's implosion? Is he intelligent enough to modify his preferred approach, as neither LDII nor KM is Felton or Lawson. (2) The players - My intuitive guess is that there are only 3 plausible team leaders: Graves, because the only senior; LDII, because a junior and PG/QB; Barnes, because he's confident, intelligent, superbly talented, and probably either willing or forceful enough to take command. It's hard to see Graves, however, as he exudes negative vibes aplenty, beginning with sullen, me-first demeanor. If LDII and HB come to some understanding re leadership, it will be a major, major boon to UNC's chances. Otherwise, uh oh, your friend better pray.

I'll conclude by saying that, whereas my Loony Optimism served me very. very well throughout this season [and I can prove it, chapter and verse], my generic loony-ness served me rather ill re this season's Heels, as I was among the very last to see how disastrous their play had become by mid-season. I just could not believe they were that bad; happily, they were. Still, as anyone can see in my predictions above in this post, I seem not to have rid myself of the view that the Heels' serious talent can overcome leadership ?s. Like Charlie Brown, I guess I think Lucy will hold that ball down.

In terms of just sheer talent, I cannot see any teams nationally that can match Duke and UNC in'10-'11. Maybe MichSt. Is that loony?

BattierBattalion
04-17-2010, 01:35 AM
I agree with most of the sentiment here that UNC will be better, but their Final Four prospects hinge on the point guard position. They don't have a Lawson or Felton. I think that Roy and his coaching staff would have figured this out by now (but then again, they didn't during the season) and will pursue a more deliberate pace.

I think Larry Drew has shown flashes of brilliance. It's entirely possible that he puts it all together next year and becomes the quality point guard capable of starting for a NC contender. If he does, UNC becomes elite again.

Additionally another problem that they really have to address is their perimeter defense. Graves and Ginyard were atrocious on the defensive end last year. Barnes should be an upgrade there. Bullock, I'm not so sure. But then again, Roy's Carolina teams (with the exception of 2005) haven't been elite defensive teams and it's worked out.

Furthermore, I'm not sold on their inside presence. Zeller and Henson should start. However, considering that Zeller's bones are made of porcelain, he's likely to get injured again. In which case, UNC's left with Henson and the Wear twins. That interior would be abused by any team with even a modicum of bulk (think Trevor Booker-type).

Vincetaylor
04-17-2010, 01:46 AM
Is this thread a joke? Come on. Seriously. I might consider this discussion if Kyle leaves, but until then...

striker219
04-17-2010, 02:57 AM
We should do this the way ESPN or CBS does matchups...

Coaching...clearly edge Duke. This isn't even debatable.
Backcourt...try to name a backcourt in the country, let alone the conference, that will be better than Nolan Smith, Andre Dawkins, Seth Curry, Kyrie Irving, and Tyler Thornton. Go ahead, I'll wait. Actually no I won't, edge Duke.
Frontcourt...more of a toss-up, but largely dependent on unknown factors. Will Kyle return? Will Preparation H be the basketball jesus that Kerlina wants him to be? Will Hairston or Felix be able to contribute? Will anyone be able to find the Where? twins? And what about the development of Henson/Zeller versus Plumlee/Plumlee? Edge, push.
Chemistry...*snort* really? Oh wait, you were serious. Hold on while I laugh harder. Edge, Duke.
Intangibles/Luck...this is just getting silly. Edge, Duke, just because.

Concerned? Of course I'm concerned, but not because of personnel. I'm concerned because it's Carolina.

mgtr
04-17-2010, 04:39 AM
Many are so, so critical of Larry Drew. I agree that he is not the speed merchant that Ty Lawson was, but I thought he improved throughout the year. I am guessing that he will be satisfactory for next year, given the quality of players around him.

4decadedukie
04-17-2010, 06:10 AM
UNC-CH is a storied program, loaded with extremely talented athletes, and their players, coaches, fans, boosters, alumni and University were humiliated by their well-documented and horrific 2009-2010 meltdown. If this does not provide a real incentive to win consistently -- especially against highly reputed teams and traditional rivals -- I cannot imagine what would.

You will notice, however, that I have not used the word "team" if the foregoing paragraph. That is intentional, since the missing ingredient in the Heel's recent season was (in my opinion) team-cohesion/commitment -- operating as a well integrated group that cared more about collective than individual performance and results. No amount of basketball athleticism alone can successfully resolve that problem; it centers on attitudes, values and leadership. Whether Coach Williams can motivate, lead and create group-selflessness seems to me to be the most relevant 2010-2011 question. I do not doubt he can -- in which case UNC will be a major, national contender -- but all that Mickie D talent is no guarantee that team-chemistry will change (in fact, a case can be made that it could breed further individualism and selfishness).

We shall see.

oldnavy
04-17-2010, 07:04 AM
Charter member and Corresponding Secretary of Loony Optimists League [LOL] checking in here. Duke clear preseason #1 in ACC, even without KS. With KS, preseason #1 nationallly, and 16-0/15-1 in ACC. KI is amazing, not overrated. NS for stability, multi-threat O, great D. SC and DD for instant O. MPs, esp MP2, will explode. Yes, questions re Bigs-depth, but RK is a comer, a player, passer, shooter, and, yes, rebounder.

A near-total-makeover team, different O and D from '09-'10 Champs, but so much talent that will be disciplined by K's comprehensive approach. That is, K thinks about every nuance. Every nuance: X/O, total season prep, season-segments-strategies [3-S!], individual and team psychology and emotional intelligence. [Contrast Roy, esp when things go south.] K is going to be so energized by National Team/Olympics project, and then by the totally-positive puzzle of how to get young talent to explode on O, and play every play on D. K is going to be so excited, positive vibes all 'round from NC and National Team project. When he tells everyone who wonders if he's slowing down, he's answered honestly, he cannot wait. Absolutely cannot wait; kid in a candy shop happy. We should be, as well.

1. Top-tier: Duke clear #1, then UNC; only these 2 could plausibly reach 12-4
2. 2d tier challengers to UNC for #2: FSU and VaT, if key players stay
3. 3d tier, middle-muddle, but in this order: Miami, NCS, Md, Clem, BC
4. bottom tier: GaT, Wake, UVa. I think Bennett will be first-rate, but it'll take a few years

As to UNC specifically, several posters above have nicely highlighted ?-marks, without ignoring the real talent over there. The most intriguing ? to me is leadership, in several ways: (1) The coach - How much was he responsible for this season's implosion? Is he intelligent enough to modify his preferred approach, as neither LDII nor KM is Felton or Lawson. (2) The players - My intuitive guess is that there are only 3 plausible team leaders: Graves, because the only senior; LDII, because a junior and PG/QB; Barnes, because he's confident, intelligent, superbly talented, and probably either willing or forceful enough to take command. It's hard to see Graves, however, as he exudes negative vibes aplenty, beginning with sullen, me-first demeanor. If LDII and HB come to some understanding re leadership, it will be a major, major boon to UNC's chances. Otherwise, uh oh, your friend better pray.

I'll conclude by saying that, whereas my Loony Optimism served me very. very well throughout this season [and I can prove it, chapter and verse], my generic loony-ness served me rather ill re this season's Heels, as I was among the very last to see how disastrous their play had become by mid-season. I just could not believe they were that bad; happily, they were. Still, as anyone can see in my predictions above in this post, I seem not to have rid myself of the view that the Heels' serious talent can overcome leadership ?s. Like Charlie Brown, I guess I think Lucy will hold that ball down.

In terms of just sheer talent, I cannot see any teams nationally that can match Duke and UNC in'10-'11. Maybe MichSt. Is that loony?

Bingo! Who is going to lead this team? Graves? Please! DrewII?, he is still trying to wash the bus tire tracks off his uni from last year, I doubt he has the confidence yet, Barnes? He will be mostly concerned about Barnes. (Side note, we may see two third person references during UNC post game pressers next year "Roy Williams" and "Harrison Barnes"). Last years team had talent, so talent alone doesn't get the job done. Will Roy be able to adapt his style to the talent he has or will he continue to force players to play outside their skill sets? I will bet you that they will be BETTER, but only time will tell if they will be a contender again.

davekay1971
04-17-2010, 08:36 AM
I must say I'm surprised that your friend is still talking with a mouth full of humble pie.

I'm not. I've ceased to be amazed at how UNC fans can still run their mouths about the greatness of their program and the inferiority of all others, no matter what's actually happening. As UNC's season collapsed, I continuously heard how Duke was going to choke as soon as the NCAA tournament started and how UNC was going to put it together, make a run through the ACC tournament and then make the final four. During the NCAA tournament, I heard how UNC's run in the NIT was more impressive and how they were going to "go farther in our tournament than you guys will go in yours" (as if this actually made sense) and how, of course, Duke was going to lose the next game, and had only gotten this far because the NCAA and the refs wanted them to. Heck, even the day after a reffing error gifted UNC with a trip to the NIT finals, the UNC fans were talking about how the refs were just giving Duke a trip to the Final Four. After Duke had won it all and UNC had tanked against mighty Dayton, the talk continued, with proclamations about how Duke was the weakest team ever to win a championship, how it was given to them anyway, how much Duke was going to suck next year, and, yes, how loaded Carolina was going to be. I even heard one guy, who appeared to be sober, say that Duke winning the NC was a "one year wonder," making me wonder where the guy's been the last 25 years. But I know where he's been: in Carolina world, where God looks like Dean Smith, heaven looks like the Dean Dome, the Devil is blue and has a Polish name, and the skies are always, always Carolina blue.

Do we have reason to worry? No. We're going to kick their butts again next year.

roywhite
04-17-2010, 08:46 AM
But I know where he's been: in Carolina world, where God looks like Dean Smith, heaven looks like the Dean Dome, the Devil is blue and has a Polish name, and the skies are always, always Carolina blue.



aka Charlotte, NC.

Your mission is not an easy one, davekay

dukeballboy88
04-17-2010, 09:03 AM
Nobody else seems to think unc is a threat, maybe a threat to come behind duke next year even if Kyle goes.

Joe Linardi has them as the last team in for the first edition of bracketology and Andy katz has them preseason #19 with Ed Davis staying. They will be very weak down low with zeller and the wear kids and henson. Zeller hasnt proven he can stay healthy and the wear kids havent proven they are any good. henson is the x factor but if thats all they got inside UNC better shoot 85% from the field.

Drew will start cause Marshall aint that good. He is to eratic and you will see his line look like this next year 5 pts, 7 assists and 8 turnovers. bullock proved in the hoop summit his game has limits as all he did was get in the game and jack long 3's. HB will keep them off the bubble by himself and when they add CJ Leslie, that may move them up to a 4 seed but if Leslie dont make that mistake, UNC will be around an 8th seed.

Freshmen dont win anything, upper classmen win titles.

ACCBBallFan
04-17-2010, 09:56 AM
Many are so, so critical of Larry Drew. I agree that he is not the speed merchant that Ty Lawson was, but I thought he improved throughout the year. I am guessing that he will be satisfactory for next year, given the quality of players around him.With Larry Drew II, UNC has the Paulus syndrome, good enpough to be good but not great enough to be great.

MChambers
04-17-2010, 10:03 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041604638.html

It's kind of an interesting article, about how he was annointed the nation's top 11 year old (what a dumb thing) a few years back, and how his high school career wasn't what he had hoped. Sounds like he's a solid player, but may have the burden of unrealistic expectations to carry.

Guess he will be well prepared for UNC next year, if next year is like this year was.

PDDuke85
04-17-2010, 10:29 AM
You people aren't objective in your assessment of UNC. As difficult as this is to admit, I see a vastly improved UNC team next year. As they blend in the freshmen with their returning talent, I see the pale blue cutting down the nets in NYC next March.
:D

NSDukeFan
04-17-2010, 10:40 AM
I agree with a lot of what has been posted here, regarding UNC's great talent level, but question-marks in regards to leadership. I don't know if he is a leader or not, but I expect more from Zeller than it seems as most here do. I don't know if I like the term injury-prone, as many times injuries can be the result of bad luck. There once was a 7 footer at Duke who was also considered injury prone, who had a great finish to his career. I don't think UNC's Z is anywhere near the same type of player that Duke's Z was in terms of style, but I think Zeller has a lot of potential and could have a very big impact on the success (or hopefully failure) of the Heels this year. He and Henson could be very solid at the 4 and 5, especially with most of the best bigs in the conference entering the draft.
Overall, I expect UNC to have a much better season next year, but hopefully not that much better.

Spy
04-17-2010, 11:00 AM
HB will keep them off the bubble by himself and when they add CJ Leslie, that may move them up to a 4 seed but if Leslie dont make that mistake, UNC will be around an 8th seed.

Leslie isn't even considering them, is he?

hedevil
04-17-2010, 12:42 PM
I think it's N.C. State or Kentucky.(maybe)

Jderf
04-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Personally, I'm more worried about how good VTech will be if Delaney comes back.

SupaDave
04-17-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm not. I've ceased to be amazed at how UNC fans can still run their mouths about the greatness of their program and the inferiority of all others, no matter what's actually happening. As UNC's season collapsed, I continuously heard how Duke was going to choke as soon as the NCAA tournament started and how UNC was going to put it together, make a run through the ACC tournament and then make the final four. During the NCAA tournament, I heard how UNC's run in the NIT was more impressive and how they were going to "go farther in our tournament than you guys will go in yours" (as if this actually made sense) and how, of course, Duke was going to lose the next game, and had only gotten this far because the NCAA and the refs wanted them to. Heck, even the day after a reffing error gifted UNC with a trip to the NIT finals, the UNC fans were talking about how the refs were just giving Duke a trip to the Final Four. After Duke had won it all and UNC had tanked against mighty Dayton, the talk continued, with proclamations about how Duke was the weakest team ever to win a championship, how it was given to them anyway, how much Duke was going to suck next year, and, yes, how loaded Carolina was going to be. I even heard one guy, who appeared to be sober, say that Duke winning the NC was a "one year wonder," making me wonder where the guy's been the last 25 years. But I know where he's been: in Carolina world, where God looks like Dean Smith, heaven looks like the Dean Dome, the Devil is blue and has a Polish name, and the skies are always, always Carolina blue.

Do we have reason to worry? No. We're going to kick their butts again next year.

It's amazing that so many different folks can have the same experiences with UNC fans. It's uncanny. I think they must do some kind of "Men in Black" hypnotism during team warm-ups that is transmitted from the Jordan brand uniforms and warm-ups.

I actually had to make a mental note of the fact that they will have 9 Mickey D's All-Americans.

NINE!!!!!!!!

sandinmyshoes
04-17-2010, 02:24 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041604638.html

It's kind of an interesting article, about how he was annointed the nation's top 11 year old (what a dumb thing) a few years back, and how his high school career wasn't what he had hoped. Sounds like he's a solid player, but may have the burden of unrealistic expectations to carry.

Guess he will be well prepared for UNC next year, if next year is like this year was.

I seem to have reached a different conclusion upon reading that article. The praise from his coach, and the DeMatha coach was pretty glowing. The best pure point guard in High School or even just the senior class seems like just what UNC needs.

I have to say, I've been a fan of his game, if not his college destination, for a couple of years. I'm impressed by his showing in the NIKE Summitt game if he was playing while needing to have his wisdom teeth removed. Having had that need in the past, I know what a painful and distracting situation it can be.

I think the biggest challenge in the ACC for him will be his defense. He's a smart player, but a half step slow on defense.

airowe
04-17-2010, 02:28 PM
I think the biggest challenge in the ACC for him will be his defense. He's a smart player, but a half step slow on defense.

Yep. Check out the :44 mark of this video. #11 is Kyrie Irving, with the ball. The guy guarding him is Kendall Marshall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ow5CV8fVak

Here it is in Slo-Mo

http://img249.yfrog.com/img249/4186/kyriemakingkendalllooks.gif

PADukeMom
04-17-2010, 03:01 PM
I worry about Carolina everytime we play them. It's Carolina, how can you not worry?

proelitedota
04-17-2010, 03:23 PM
I think it's good that we're concerned about UNC again. It makes the games more exciting to watch.

Duvall
04-17-2010, 03:28 PM
I think it's good that we're concerned about UNC again. It makes the games more exciting to watch.

One. Frigging. Year.

Unbelievable.

Papa John
04-17-2010, 04:03 PM
Yep. Check out the :44 mark of this video. #11 is Kyrie Irving, with the ball. The guy guarding him is Kendall Marshall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ow5CV8fVak

Here it is in Slo-Mo

http://img249.yfrog.com/img249/4186/kyriemakingkendalllooks.gif

To be fair, Kyrie walked on that play... I count 3 steps from the time he picks up his dribble...

FireOgilvie
04-17-2010, 04:07 PM
To be fair, Kyrie walked on that play... I count 3 steps from the time he picks up his dribble...

Yes, but Marshall was already halfway to the floor by that point.

sandinmyshoes
04-17-2010, 05:01 PM
No surprise there. Kyrie can do that to anyone. Guards will have nightmares from fear of being left one on one with Kyrie. Coaches are going to be drilling their teams over and over again on help defense when the ball is in Kyrie's hands. Our guys have to be smiling at the thought of how many open shots that help defense might offer up.

Scorp4me
04-17-2010, 05:40 PM
I don't see how John Hensen is a freak of nature unless you are talking about how skinny he is.

I think it's possible to discuss Carolina's poor point guard situation without comparing it to Greg Paulus.

As far as I'm "concerned" the next time Carolina wins a game will be too soon.

Carolina fans are amazing for their ability to simply ignore facts. If it wasn't so obnoxious it'd be an interesting study.

I think the problem with most people concerning Carolina is two fold. On the one hand everyone saying they will be good will hear that they were supposed to be good last year. Tons of talent, preseason pick, all that jazz. Those picking them to be bad, based on that last year, will hear about how much talent they'll have next year, how good they look, and how they will be a preseason pick. Quite a problem. Just glad it's not our problem =)

Big Pappa
04-18-2010, 01:39 AM
I have no doubt that Carolina will have some guys that can play next year but I am only really "concerned" about one. Harrison - the brother can absolutely play.

If Kyle comes back I think we cover Harrison with Kyle, but if he doesn't I'm not sure who we put on him because of his combination of size and speed.

What do you think?

FireOgilvie
04-18-2010, 02:18 AM
UNC will be very good. I think this season for them was a fluke that had more to do with leadership, attitude, and coaching than it did talent... they might have addition by subtraction and I think the guys they are bringing in all have good attitudes. I think Barnes will average 18+ pts and probably 6 or more rebounds per game. I wouldn't be surprised if he put up numbers in the low 20s if they give him the green light. He's so versatile that adding him alone will make them a top 10 team. He can make up for a lot of problems on a team... he can play point forward, SG, WF, or PF if they want to go small and he can guard those positions as well. They're going to be pretty good at PG, but LDII/Marshall/Strickland aren't what they need to be a great team in Roy's system. Zeller/Henson/Wears are going to be solid down low, but losing Davis REALLY hurt them (I was very relieved to hear he was leaving). I don't really have a very high opinion of the play of Zeller, but he can definitely put up points. Henson should finally have the year he should have had last year. He has the potential to be really really good. He's already a great shot-blocker. If UNC loses more than 6-7 games next year, I'll be surprised. They should compete with us for the ACC championship (no matter what Singler does).

I think the difference for us when we play them will be Irving and whether or not the Plumlees can keep focused on defense. I expect some really good games as I think Barnes could have our number if Singler goes. I'm concerned about the development of the Plumlees; IMO they really don't have a very good feel for the game relative to their talent level, especially on defense. I know they're young, but they look confused out there way too much. There was some talk about how Mason was definitely going to be our fourth best player later this past season, but I said repeatedly that it wasn't going to happen. Of course, it never happened - he was probably our 7th best player at the end of the year, but I hope that a full off-season will help him figure things out.

sagegrouse
04-18-2010, 02:21 AM
If Kyle comes back I think we cover Harrison with Kyle, but if he doesn't I'm not sure who we put on him because of his combination of size and speed.

What do you think?

I believe the guy recruited to do the job is Carrick Felix.

sagegrouse

FireOgilvie
04-18-2010, 02:26 AM
I believe the guy recruited to do the job is Carrick Felix.

sagegrouse

I doubt Felix will be out there guarding Barnes for 35 minutes. Hairston might be able to a little bit as well.

Duvall
04-18-2010, 02:29 AM
I believe the guy recruited to do the job is Carrick Felix.

sagegrouse

Can we maybe wait and see if Felix can guard anyone at this level before we start saying things like this? Besides, I'll be surprised if Felix plays more than 15 minutes in any game next year, let alone the UNC game, and even more surprised if Barnes is around after next season.

Vincetaylor
04-18-2010, 02:36 AM
Can we maybe wait and see if Felix can guard anyone at this level before we start saying things like this? Besides, I'll be surprised if Felix plays more than 15 minutes in any game next year, let alone the UNC game, and even more surprised if Barnes is around after next season.

There is no doubt in my mind that K brought in Felix given the possibility of Singler's absence. If Singler is gone, Felix will have to play more than 15 minutes a game or we will have serious problems on the defensive end. If he's not good enough to play 15 minutes/game, then we will have serious problems on the defensive end.

sivartrenrag
04-18-2010, 02:38 AM
I'm concerned about one thing: Harrison Barnes. The kid is phenomenal.

But I think their fans have more than just one player to worry about... we're going to be absolutely loaded next season, especially in the backcourt. So, overall, I'm not terribly concerned.

sagegrouse
04-18-2010, 02:46 AM
Can we maybe wait and see if Felix can guard anyone at this level before we start saying things like this? Besides, I'll be surprised if Felix plays more than 15 minutes in any game next year, let alone the UNC game, and even more surprised if Barnes is around after next season.

Who knows if Felix can be a first line ACC player next year? But I am surprised you disagree with my (literal) statement that "I believe the guy recruited to do the job is Carrick Felix." It seemed pretty obvious.

sagegrouse

hedevil
04-18-2010, 04:38 AM
Maybe K uses Carrick and Hairston (one at a time) in the UNC games more than in other games just to hassle Barnes a bit. Something like, "Carrick, Josh, you two go out there, play physical man to man D and don't allow anything easy. Between you two we have 10 fouls to give."

Maybe K just goes small and lets UNC try to match up defensively with us. Either way, I'm glad we have K (and not me) to figure these things out.:)

chadlee989
04-18-2010, 03:36 PM
A few have hit on what i think is the most important point when talking about Carolina next year. And that is the size of the big men they have. Yes, i know that barnes will be good and there gaurds should be better. But, with Zeller, henson, and only one of the Wears(dont know which one but one plays inside and the other plays outside) as inside players that is very small and weak inside. If Zeller is in foul trouble they have henson as there 5. No way can he bang with the big guys around the acc. The plumlees had a whole year of banging with Z in practice. They will push Henson around and dominate him on the boards.

gumbomoop
04-18-2010, 04:41 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that K brought in Felix given the possibility of Singler's absence. If Singler is gone, Felix will have to play more than 15 minutes a game or we will have serious problems on the defensive end. If he's not good enough to play 15 minutes/game, then we will have serious problems on the defensive end.

I don't quite agree with this, but I imagine many/most posters do, so I'll be precise about my disagreement.

If KS stays, we have no major problems in any area whatsoever, and will absolutely be preseason #1. But assuming a more difficult scenario, let's say KS departs. [We're still a very, very good team, preseason top 8-10, and should be top 3-5.] Even in that scenario, I'm skeptical that the unknown CF plays "more than 15 mpg." It is certainly true that v. UNC, CF or somebody bigger than 6'2" needs to guard Barnes for awhile.

But few teams Duke will face will have anyone at the SF even remotely the equal of HB. So, yes, a fair number of teams might try to take advantage of a Duke "small perimeter." But few will be able to exploit this advantage, because few college teams are sufficiently organized and disciplined - unlike NBA teams - to do so. Those who try will find, too, that the MPs will provide weak side help in the form of stuffs.

Thus, for most opponents, the solution to this particular problem on D is some combo of (1) high-pressure D, (2) ball denial, and (3) weak side stuffs. I sure hope CF will be a revelation on D and will be that particular-situation-specific-stopper, but I'm going to be very surprised if we don't see the vast majority of the 120 mpg at the PG and 2 wings going to KI, NS, SC, and DD.

Against UNC and Barnes, yep, likely to need creative D-plan by K. We should count on it, and look forward to it with some unusual combination of anxiety and glee.

MarkD83
04-18-2010, 04:51 PM
To quote Dean Smith " The best thing about freshman is they become sophomores".

I know that HB is the top recruit in this class and I also know that UNC will have to rely heavily on him and perhaps on Marshall and Bullock if they want to be really successful next year.

However, they will all be freshman. Even when UNC has had talented freshman that made significant contributions (Marvin Williams, Ed Davis etc.) it was the upper classmen that were the bedrock of the team.

So am I worried about a backcorut of Graves, Drew II, Strickland and McDonald and a front court of Zeller, Henson, Wear (I and II). This is a little shaky as a foundation into which to incorporate freshman who may be specatcular one night but may also looked lost on the court more often.

The margin of error for UNC is very thin.

MarkD83
04-18-2010, 04:58 PM
As a separate thought if we look at Duke's breakdown of "bedrock" and newcomers. Even though Irving looks amazing he may also have an up and down year because he is a freshman.

On the other hand Curry has played Division I basketball and been with the team for a year and Felix is not right out of high school. He has already made the transition to college and the ups and downs that come with that transition. Both of them I suspect will bring a much more consisitent game to Duke then freshman would.

gumbomoop
04-18-2010, 05:14 PM
As a separate thought if we look at Duke's breakdown of "bedrock" and newcomers. Even though Irving looks amazing he may also have an up and down year because he is a freshman.

On the other hand Curry has played Division I basketball and been with the team for a year and Felix is not right out of high school. He has already made the transition to college and the ups and downs that come with that transition. Both of them I suspect will bring a much more consisitent game to Duke then freshman would.

This is a point worth considering, but neither KI nor HB are normal frosh; they are way, way abnormal. Yes, each is likely to have a mediocre game now and then, but neither is likely to hit the normal freshman wall. I can imagine - and even this takes an act of some imagination! - SC being more consistent than KI, but not more valuable over the season. Not having seen CF play at all v. having seen KI 4 times - each more impressive than the last - I'm convinced that we're going to be saying, "I like what CF brings to the team, " and "I am astounded by how good KI is." [Unfortunately, to bring it back to the OP, we're going to be astounded by HB, too.]

airowe
04-18-2010, 05:19 PM
This is a point worth considering, but neither KI nor HB are normal frosh; they are way, way abnormal. Yes, each is likely to have a mediocre game now and then, but neither is likely to hit the normal freshman wall. I can imagine - and even this takes an act of some imagination! - SC being more consistent than KI, but not more valuable over the season. Not having seen CF play at all v. having seen KI 4 times - each more impressive than the last - I'm convinced that we're going to be saying, "I like what CF brings to the team, " and "I am astounded by how good KI is." [Unfortunately, to bring it back to the OP, we're going to be astounded by HB, too.]

I'm gonna guess Kyrie does not outdo these numbers:


Season and Career Totals

Field Goals

3-Point FGs

Free Throws

Rebounds

Season GP GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF-DQ Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
1999-2000 34 34 1157 179-427 73-206 61-89 31-112 143 86-1 220 139 6 81 492

gumbomoop
04-18-2010, 05:36 PM
I'm gonna guess Kyrie does not outdo these numbers:


Season and Career Totals

Field Goals

3-Point FGs

Free Throws

Rebounds

Season GP GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF-DQ Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
1999-2000 34 34 1157 179-427 73-206 61-89 31-112 143 86-1 220 139 6 81 492

This player was an astounding talent. So, while I at first inferred that you cited these to suggest I was overstating KI's talent, I now believe you posted them to confirm my prediction.

I anxiously await your confirmation, or correction, of my inference.

DukieInBrasil
04-18-2010, 05:40 PM
Can we maybe wait and see if Felix can guard anyone at this level before we start saying things like this? Besides, I'll be surprised if Felix plays more than 15 minutes in any game next year, let alone the UNC game, and even more surprised if Barnes is around after next season.

Change that phrase around a little bit: Can we maybe wait and see if Barnes can abuse anyone at this level before we start saying things like this?

No doubt the kid has talent, but so do lots of kids that just take a while to figure things out. Remember Mason Plumlee and all of our fired-up talk about him? He had an ok year and showed he's got talent but didn't put the fear in anyone i don't think. HB may go thru the same...

airowe
04-18-2010, 05:43 PM
This player was an astounding talent. So, while I at first inferred that you cited these to suggest I was overstating KI's talent, I now believe you posted them to confirm my prediction.

I anxiously await your confirmation, or correction, of my inference.

Do you know the player who's stats I posted? It's Jason Williams' Freshman Year. While he did put a great year, it should be noted that all Freshmen have an adjustment period. Especially ones with the ball in their hands from Day 1. While I think Kyrie will be amazing, I don't want the expectations of him to be so high that he may not ever be able to reach them.

To keep this on subject, I'd expect a less remarkable performance from Barnes as he will not be the focal point of carolina's offense and should not dominate the ball like Kyrie will for us. I think Kyrie will have a much more pronounced impact on Duke's season next year.

roy's system does not focus on the wing. It is a PG and Center focused offense that thrives off transition buckets and penetration. If Drew can't get Barnes the ball he will not be nearly as effective as he was in High School or in these All-Star games. He will be the focal point of one unit on the floor. And that's the opposing team's defense. It will be interesting to see how he performs against elite level defenders as he's been playing in a very weak region of basketball talent in Iowa the last four years. Kyrie on the other hand has tested his trade against some of the best competition in the country in NJ and played one of, if not the toughest High School OOC schedules.

gumbomoop
04-18-2010, 06:00 PM
Do you know the player who's stats I posted? It's Jason Williams' Freshman Year. While he did put a great year, it should be noted that all Freshmen have an adjustment period. Especially ones with the ball in their hands from Day 1. While I think Kyrie will be amazing, I don't want the expectations of him to be so high that he may not ever be able to reach them.

Yes, I did know that - not because I have memorized the stats of all Duke players, but because I saw you were making an interesting point. So I looked it up. Having done so, I characterized this anonymous player [thinking you'd want me to play along, as you didn't identify him in your post] as an "astounding talent." I stand by that assessment.

To avoid getting into a pissing contest with you, I concede your essential point, and maybe more. It's entirely possible that you're right, I'm wrong; I'd be better able to judge if I understood just how much we disagree.

Probably not so much, as you, too, think "Kyrie will be amazing," and I, too, think Kyrie will "have an adjustment period." But maybe still just a bit of a disagreement, as JWill wasn't mostly a PG in hs, while KI certainly was. So JWill had a tougher adjustment - as a PG - than one might predict for KI.

dukestheheat
04-18-2010, 06:04 PM
Carolina is going to be very strong again very soon. It's always that way. It's either us, or them. We won a couple back to back, in 91 and 92, and they win it in 93! We won in 2001, and they turn up and win it in 2005. So, if we get down, or they get down, it's usually not for long, and the team that bounces back bounces back in a BIG way (ie, a National Championship way).

Yes, Carolina will be back. Dominate the ACC next year? I don't think they will dominate the ACC, but with the players they've got coming in (remember, our biggest miss over the last few years was Barnes), they are going to make waves.

dth.

DukieInBrasil
04-18-2010, 06:16 PM
I see no reason for UNC to regress from this past year. IMHO their main problem was Larry Drew, not that he's bad, just that he was being asked to do something a bit beyond him. After his coach kept throwing him under the bus his confidence had to be shaken. To his credit, his play in NIT was much improved compared to most of his regular season. He'll be a bit steadier and the additional PG back-ups will only help there. So'll they ought to be somewhat better just b/c of somewhat better play from Drew.
Losing both Davis and Thompson will hurt talent-wise but the loss of ED may be addition by subtraction. They have lots of talent in TZ, DH and the Wears, but also lots of Qs about how much prodxn will they get there. The resolution of that question will say a lot about how good they end up being.
The addition of HB ought to improve the team in and of himself, but having never seen him play I'll refrain from making any predictions.
However, I just can't see them making so much improvement from last year to cause too much concern. They'll be better sure, but improving from terrible with the talent they have shouldn't be too hard. Duke ought to be better than UNC next year.

airowe
04-18-2010, 06:17 PM
Probably not so much, as you, too, think "Kyrie will be amazing," and I, too, think Kyrie will "have an adjustment period." But maybe still just a bit of a disagreement, as JWill wasn't mostly a PG in hs, while KI certainly was. So JWill had a tougher adjustment - as a PG - than one might predict for KI.

I don't think we disagree much at all, but Kyrie actually didn't play PG very much in High School. His coach made the indefensible decision of playing his son at PG instead of Kyrie.

gumbomoop
04-18-2010, 08:28 PM
I don't think we disagree much at all, but Kyrie actually didn't play PG very much in High School. His coach made the indefensible decision of playing his son at PG instead of Kyrie.

Wow, I did not know that. So now I'm perplexed about something: one hears pretty regularly that "Many experts say Kyrie Irving is the best PG to come out of Jersey in 25 years." Does that mean that these observers know/knew that KI should have been the main PG on his hs team, so that even if he played PG only part-time, that was easily enough to see his greatness?

[To mods: I realize this probably should go on KI thread, but these threads get all jumbled together sometimes......]

airowe
04-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Wow, I did not know that. So now I'm perplexed about something: one hears pretty regularly that "Many experts say Kyrie Irving is the best PG to come out of Jersey in 25 years." Does that mean that these observers know/knew that KI should have been the main PG on his hs team, so that even if he played PG only part-time, that was easily enough to see his greatness?

[To mods: I realize this probably should go on KI thread, but these threads get all jumbled together sometimes......]

I'll take this to the Irving thread...

cptnflash
04-18-2010, 09:00 PM
A few have hit on what i think is the most important point when talking about Carolina next year. And that is the size of the big men they have. Yes, i know that barnes will be good and there gaurds should be better. But, with Zeller, henson, and only one of the Wears(dont know which one but one plays inside and the other plays outside) as inside players that is very small and weak inside. If Zeller is in foul trouble they have henson as there 5. No way can he bang with the big guys around the acc. The plumlees had a whole year of banging with Z in practice. They will push Henson around and dominate him on the boards.

Don't let your eyes fool you. After Ed Davis went down in the game against us on February 10th, Roy Williams finally started playing Henson at the 4 instead of the 3. From that point forward, Henson averaged 0.327 rebounds per minute through the end of the season. That's against ACC and NIT competition, so no cupcakes to boost the numbers. Compare that to the Plumlees:

Miles = 0.299/minute
Mason = 0.220/minute

The Plumlee numbers are for the entire season, so they include pre-conference cupcakes but also include the full conference slate and of course the postseason, where our quality of competition was significantly better than UNC's. You can decide for yourself how comparable these numbers are, but my basic point remains the same: Jon Henson is a freak of nature, and thus was able to rebound (and block shots) at a very high rate last year despite being a very skinny freshman who was forced to play out of position for half the year by his stubborn coach. Next year he definitely won't be a freshman, he probably won't be forced to play out of position, and he might even be a little less skinny. I guarantee he will hold his own and then some against every big man the ACC has to offer, including ours.

And to the people who are saying Zeller is fragile... wasn't that what most people were saying about Zoubek before this year? Am I the only one who sees a giant parallel developing?

roywhite
04-18-2010, 09:32 PM
....at a very high rate last year despite being a very skinny freshman who was forced to play out of position for half the year by his stubborn coach. Next year he definitely won't be a freshman, he probably won't be forced to play out of position, and he might even be a little less skinny. I guarantee he will hold his own and then some against every big man the ACC has to offer, including ours.

And to the people who are saying Zeller is fragile... wasn't that what most people were saying about Zoubek before this year? Am I the only one who sees a giant parallel developing?

Yes, I'd hope you're the only one.

One of the stories of this championship season was the continued improvement of a core of experienced Duke players, especially the senior class.

2006-07 22-11 lost 1st round
2007-08 28-6 lost 2nd round
2008-09 30-7 lost Sweet Sixteen
2009-10 35-5 National Champs

So there's not a parallel in that sense with our Chapel Hill neighbors, unless you want to predict a gradual improvement for them compared to this season.

And comparing Zeller and Zoubek? Well, both have the "Z" thing for the last name and had some injuries. But their games are not similar.

cptnflash
04-19-2010, 12:05 AM
Yes, I'd hope you're the only one.

One of the stories of this championship season was the continued improvement of a core of experienced Duke players, especially the senior class.

2006-07 22-11 lost 1st round
2007-08 28-6 lost 2nd round
2008-09 30-7 lost Sweet Sixteen
2009-10 35-5 National Champs

So there's not a parallel in that sense with our Chapel Hill neighbors, unless you want to predict a gradual improvement for them compared to this season.

And comparing Zeller and Zoubek? Well, both have the "Z" thing for the last name and had some injuries. But their games are not similar.

To be clear, when I mentioned a parallel I was specifically referring to Zeller and Zoubek, not Duke and UNC generally. I am aware that their games are different. Zeller's offensive upside is higher, but it is unlikely he'll ever be the rebounding beast Zoubek became this year. My main point is that dismissing his potential to make a significant contribution next year on the basis of his injury history is pretty ironic given what we all just witnessed.

But actually, now that you mention it... there is a huge parallel between our 2010 national championship team and UNC's 2009 version in terms of progression of a core group of juniors and seniors. The four year record of the Hansbrough/Green class was as follows:

2005-06 23-8 lost 2nd round
2006-07 31-7 lost Elite Eight
2007-08 36-3 lost Final Four
2008-09 34-4 National Champs

So Duke and UNC both went through a similar four year progression that culminated in a national title. If Kyle leaves (I'll be glad when we know for sure and can stop speculating), both teams will have lost 4 out of 5 starters and more than half of their scoring. Both had extremely highly touted recruiting classes coming in to fill the vacancies (UNC has the edge here, as their 2009 class was ranked #2 in the nation whereas our 2010 class is #5). I'm sorry, but if I'm the only one who can see parallels here, I think the rest of you may still be basking in the national title afterglow (totally understandable).

As I said before, I do not in any way expect us to perform as poorly next year as UNC did this year, mostly because K won't be as stubborn as Roy was and will adjust his approach to the degree required to fit his new personnel. Just like he did this year. Thank God we've got a much better coach than UNC!

But I do think that people who believe we're the prohibitive favorite in the ACC next year regardless of what Kyle does are fooling themselves. And those that underestimate a UNC team with 9 McDonald's All-Americans including what is probably the #1 incoming freshman in the entire country are probably in for a surprise as well.

Starter
04-19-2010, 12:17 AM
For the record, Irving was very much a point guard in high school. I went to a half-dozen games this year. Boyle's kid would bring the ball up sometimes and KI would play off the ball during those possessions, but most of the time Kyrie would bring it up and primarily handle the ball on the perimeter. This was especially true in pressure situations and against better competition.

Duvall
04-19-2010, 12:19 AM
But I do think that people who believe we're the prohibitive favorite in the ACC next year regardless of what Kyle does are fooling themselves. And those that underestimate a UNC team with 9 McDonald's All-Americans including what is probably the #1 incoming freshman in the entire country are probably in for a surprise as well.

Still, let's not forget that their collection of McDonald's All-Americans is more than 22% Wear.

The Heels should be better next year, maybe a lot better. But it's important to remember that they have a long, long way to go to reach being good.

Big Pappa
04-19-2010, 12:21 AM
But I do think that people who believe we're the prohibitive favorite in the ACC next year regardless of what Kyle does are fooling themselves. And those that underestimate a UNC team with 9 McDonald's All-Americans including what is probably the #1 incoming freshman in the entire country are probably in for a surprise as well.

I respect your opinion but I honestly think the you are underestimating us. Let's just say that Kyle leaves, we are still left with an All-ACC performer in Nolan Smith and a pre-season All-American candidate, the very talented and cohesive Plumlee brothers (Mason being a guy who is projected in the lottery next year, 19th on ESPN's Big Board this year), Andre Dawkins a dead-eye shooter and a great scorer, Seth Curry who averaged over 20 ppg and was All-Big South his freshman year, and Kyrie Irving (if HB is the #1 incoming freshman) the #2 incoming freshman in the country and a projected top 5 pick in next year's draft. This doesn't even take into account McDonald's All-American Ryan Kelly, top 20 recruit Josh Hairston (same ESPN grade as Bullock and better than Marshall), Carrick Felix and Tyler Thornton.

cptnflash
04-19-2010, 12:50 AM
I respect your opinion but I honestly think the you are underestimating us. Let's just say that Kyle leaves, we are still left with an All-ACC performer in Nolan Smith and a pre-season All-American candidate, the very talented and cohesive Plumlee brothers (Mason being a guy who is projected in the lottery next year, 19th on ESPN's Big Board this year), Andre Dawkins a dead-eye shooter and a great scorer, Seth Curry who averaged over 20 ppg and was All-Big South his freshman year, and Kyrie Irving (if HB is the #1 incoming freshman) the #2 incoming freshman in the country and a projected top 5 pick in next year's draft. This doesn't even take into account McDonald's All-American Ryan Kelly, top 20 recruit Josh Hairston (same ESPN grade as Bullock and better than Marshall), Carrick Felix and Tyler Thornton.

Kyrie is #3 in ESPNU's top 100. Barnes is #1, and Jared Sullinger (Ohio State) is #2. But semantics aside, I agree, it is reasonable to expect Kyrie to be really good his freshman year. Just hopefully not so good that there is no sophomore year. I don't want to start trafficking in one and done players if we can help it.

Otherwise, I respect your opinion too, and I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I disagree on a few of your assessments:

The Plumlee brothers are most definitely talented, but I wouldn't use the word cohesive. Or mature. Or consistently effective. (There was a reason they hardly saw the floor in the title game.) But here's hoping they improve over the summer, as of course they should. In Mason's case in particular, the sky is truly the limit. He may be the key to next year's team. If he actually learns how to play basketball, he could be absolutely dominant. If he doesn't, he could be another McRoberts: flashes of brilliance (remember the double behind the back dribble?), a lot of what if's, and an early exit for the NBA without making much of an impact.

Andre looks like a scorer and definitely has a beautiful stroke, but calling him a dead-eye when he shot under 40% from the field and only 74% from the line seems a bit much. I think he could become a big time scorer, and I really hope he does because I love the kid and I'm convinced we would have lost the Baylor game without him, but let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

I hope Seth is as good against real competition as he was against the Big South. I hear he's great in practice. But I'm not taking it to the bank just yet. In any case I will be very surprised if he gets anywhere near his ppg average from Liberty, based on usage alone.

Bottom line on Seth & Andre as sophomores is that while they will be good, they will not be nearly as good as Jon and Kyle were this year. Nor should we expect them to be. It's a net negative, and we shouldn't pretend it's anything else.

Big Pappa
04-19-2010, 01:35 AM
The Plumlee brothers are most definitely talented, but I wouldn't use the word cohesive. Or mature. Or consistently effective.

Bottom line on Seth & Andre as sophomores is that while they will be good, they will not be nearly as good as Jon and Kyle were this year. Nor should we expect them to be. It's a net negative, and we shouldn't pretend it's anything else.

I agree that they are not yet mature or consistently effective (notice I didn't claim either one of those) but I think they are extremely cohesive. They have been playing basketball together for 15+ years and seem to always know exactly where the other one is on the floor.

As far as Seth and Andre go they both can score in bunches and can shoot the lights out (I'm not sure what qualifies a shooter as "dead-eye" but I think they are both pretty close).

I totally agree that they will not be as good as Kyle and Jon but I was arguing against what you said, "I do think that people who believe we're the prohibitive favorite in the ACC next year regardless of what Kyle does are fooling themselves"

My end-point being that these kids that we have next year, with or without Kyle, have to be considered the favorite in the ACC.

JohnGalt
04-19-2010, 09:05 AM
Kyrie is #3 in ESPNU's top 100. Barnes is #1, and Jared Sullinger (Ohio State) is #2. But semantics aside, I agree, it is reasonable to expect Kyrie to be really good his freshman year. Just hopefully not so good that there is no sophomore year. I don't want to start trafficking in one and done players if we can help it.


This isn't a fair statement. "One and Doner" implies a player already committed to going pro following a year in college. It generally carries a negative connotation because the player almost certainly would have gone straight to the NBA out of high school had he been allowed to. Therefore, the only reason he was in school was to burn up a year before going pro. Kyrie has stated numerous times he'd like to stay for 2 years, perhaps more. If he blows up, becomes the consensus #1 pick in the draft, and goes pro, you (1) can't blame him for making the smart financial decision and (2) IMO, can't tag him with the "One and Doner" label just because his performance dictated him as such a talent. Harrison Barnes is in the same position, only on the wrong side of the street, the faded Duke blue side of the street...

As far as UNC is concerned...I'm concerned about splitting with them. We haven't exactly performed to our our level of satisfaction against them in recent years (last year's aside) and since we are behind in the overall series, splitting, for me, would be especially hard to take. I expect LD2 to surprise everyone a little and put it all together to become a serviceable PG rather than a detriment to the team. It will be important for Zeller to remain healthy which he clearly hasn't proven he can do and for the Wears to provide valuable minutes here and there. I'm interested to see Henson and Strickland's improvement from this year, as well. If they markedly improve, the frontcourt stays healthy, and LD2 minimizes those awful turnovers, UNC could very well be in the upper echelon of the ACC, especially with Barnes coming in. That being said, there are a lot of what ifs in that statement and I expect 1 or 2 of them to remain just that, leading to what the Heels will call "another down year" even though drastically better than the previous.

Scorp4me
04-19-2010, 10:02 AM
Carolina finished near the bottom of the league and went to the NIT. Duke won the league and won the NCAA. So let's just agree that Duke probably won't be as good next year and Carolina will probably be better.

Of course we could finish as good next year and Carolina could still finish worse, but that's not the point.

And I still say Hensen is no freak of nature. I think he snuck up on people late in the season and he's quick for his size, but banging inside for a whole season and he's got less chance.

sagegrouse
04-19-2010, 11:11 AM
Carolina finished near the bottom of the league and went to the NIT. Duke won the league and won the NCAA.

The essence of this thread, it seems to me, is the quote above. And to answer the question posed by the OP -- "UNC? A Concern?" -- I would answer, "Yes, UNC should be concerned."

Those guys have the potential to be amazingly good. But the Heels are building a team from scratch. Last year, they had some good players but a mediocre team. So, there isn't a lot to build on. The team concept has to be redefined. My guess is that there won't be a lot of resistance to Harrison Barnes and some of the other newcomers playing central roles -- I mean, this year's team really struggled.

Next year's team has a long way to go. The NIT run showed that last year's team was capable of making the NCAA tournament, but the Heels played several games dead even against other teams that didn't make the Big Dance. But, at least, they won some games and could have won more during the regular season.

I would also expect Roy Williams to go back to the drawing board and redouble his efforts to find an offense, a defense and a team that will win games. He's a good coach, so he will have some success.

Anyway, UNC fans blissfully predicting a National Championship or ACC Championship this year are "whistling past the graveyard." It may happen, but UNC is starting over.

sagegrouse

ACCBBallFan
04-19-2010, 11:45 AM
Maybe K uses Carrick and Hairston (one at a time) in the UNC games more than in other games just to hassle Barnes a bit. Something like, "Carrick, Josh, you two go out there, play physical man to man D and don't allow anything easy. Between you two we have 10 fouls to give."

Maybe K just goes small and lets UNC try to match up defensively with us. Either way, I'm glad we have K (and not me) to figure these things out.:)

Exactly, if William Graves caused Barnes problems in their scrimmage, imagine what Seth Curry or Andre Dawkins could light him up with, (or Kyle Singler).

You are not necesarily going to out perfrom them at every position, but if Duke can keep the WF margin close, gotta like their chances at PG and SG, with both teams having potential issues with big man depth and inexperience.

kong123
04-19-2010, 12:15 PM
Seems Graves is a lights out shooter in practice and an average one during the games. Harrison got to play against him in a scrimmage game before the season started and probably got Graves best effort. As we all know, if a guy is on, doesn't matter what you do, he is still going to make a ton of shots. Plus, I doubt anyone in the scrimmage game really put forth a solid effort on the defensive end.


Its really going to be interesting. If UNC can find consistent/balanced scoring this year, plus better effort on D, then this team is capable of great things. But, that consistency wasn't present on either end of the court this year, so who knows? No one seems ready to give UNC the benefit of the doubt seeing as how they received it in the preseason last year. I will say, I will be disappointed if they have double digit loses next year. I think the ACC will be weaker next year than it was this past year. Wake, Maryland, and Clemson will be rebuilding, Florida St may be good and Virginia and Virginia Tech may be surprisingly competitive.

Who knows? Its fun to talk about it. Either way, next years rivalry games will be more competitive.

Billy Dat
04-19-2010, 01:35 PM
Duke are the Champs, UNC is NIT runner up. They are looking up the ladder at our behinds.

Are they a concern...yeah...I am afraid their fans are capable of shooting up some post offices if they don't get back to the NCAAs.

People can drool over their recruits if they want, but until they do something on the court, they are still in rebuilding mode. We had a slew of talented freshmen and sophomores in 2007, and we took our lumps. If these young bucks are able to snap their fingers and return UNC to the nation's elite (top 10), I will be surprised. 2007 showed me that it's really tough to do that when the kids playing have never been there before. The McRoberts/Paulus connection looked mighty elite in the McDonalds game.

Let UNC be concerned about themselves....I'll spend the summer sipping victory champagne from my Duke chalice.

sandinmyshoes
04-19-2010, 02:04 PM
Seems like some of us are getting way overcofident. We won the ACC tourney, and the NCAA championship, but it's not as if we dominated. We had at least two games in each tourney that could have gone either way with very few bounces of the ball or judgement calls by the refs.

Losing Kyle would mean a lot. And last year we had a pretty good season avoiding injuries. I don't want to tempt the basketball gods with too much strutting.

I see us as the solid frontrunner in the ACC, but there's not that much space between us and UNC or a couple of other teams (like VT). I like us because I think we have the best blend of depth and experience. But you just let a few players show marked improvement for those other teams, while a couple of ours show less improvement, and the story could be entirely different. And injuries. There's always that fear of injuries.

Years and years of watching the ACC has taught me not to get too cocky.

BoozerWasFouled
04-19-2010, 02:20 PM
I don't think UNC is a concern, and the reason is that the culture of the team is broken.

All of these projected line-ups and discussions of talent may be beside the point, as they were last summer. What kinds of mistakes beat UNC last year? Mishandling easy passes, throwing the ball away, not putting up their hands on defense, not helping on defense. Things high school teams don't do.

This is a problem of team culture, not a talent problem. Transitioning from high school to college involves doing tons of small things a lot more sharply than you did the year before. For whatever reason, this UNC group never caught on to that. And who will instill it next year? A freshman?

kong123
04-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Duke are the Champs, UNC is NIT runner up. They are looking up the ladder at our behinds.

Are they a concern...yeah...I am afraid their fans are capable of shooting up some post offices if they don't get back to the NCAAs.

People can drool over their recruits if they want, but until they do something on the court, they are still in rebuilding mode. We had a slew of talented freshmen and sophomores in 2007, and we took our lumps. If these young bucks are able to snap their fingers and return UNC to the nation's elite (top 10), I will be surprised. 2007 showed me that it's really tough to do that when the kids playing have never been there before. The McRoberts/Paulus connection looked mighty elite in the McDonalds game.

Let UNC be concerned about themselves....I'll spend the summer sipping victory champagne from my Duke chalice.

You sound like a UNC fan after we won the championship the year before. With Kyle gone, you will be relying on a bunch of guys who haven't proven themselves on the NCAA level either. Other than Kyrie, you will have to count on the Plumlee's (who barely saw the floor in the second half on the NC game), Curry (who is benefiting from his brothers reputation and hasn't played a game in a Duke uniform), and a few other players like Kelly who never played much regardless of the situation. Be careful, from one die hard fan to another, what you say now will come back to haunt you.

kong123
04-19-2010, 02:27 PM
I don't think UNC is a concern, and the reason is that the culture of the team is broken.

All of these projected line-ups and discussions of talent may be beside the point, as they were last summer. What kinds of mistakes beat UNC last year? Mishandling easy passes, throwing the ball away, not putting up their hands on defense, not helping on defense. Things high school teams don't do.

This is a problem of team culture, not a talent problem. Transitioning from high school to college involves doing tons of small things a lot more sharply than you did the year before. For whatever reason, this UNC group never caught on to that. And who will instill it next year? A freshman?

UNC failed at all of the things you mentioned above including one thing you didn't mention. They couldn't score. If UNC is efficient at putting the ball in the hoop they would have won a handful more games this season and they may have made the tourney. But, they didn't. This years team will score the ball more easily, IMHO. If they do that and improve in the other areas, then they can play with anyone. They will start building their confidence in early practices and become a real force come ACC season. You can say tons of horrible things about UNC and Roy, but if you think that the team will fail in the same way, you are kidding yourselves.

Duvall
04-19-2010, 02:27 PM
You sound like a UNC fan after we won the championship the year before. With Kyle gone, you will be relying on a bunch of guys who haven't proven themselves on the NCAA level either. Other than Kyrie, you will have to count on the Plumlee's (who barely saw the floor in the second half on the NC game), Curry (who is benefiting from his brothers reputation and hasn't played a game in a Duke uniform), and a few other players like Kelly who never played much regardless of the situation. Be careful, from one die hard fan to another, what you say now will come back to haunt you.

You seem to have overlooked the preseason favorite to be ACC Player of the Year in that scenario, but never mind that for now. Of course Duke would have question marks after losing four starters. That doesn't change the fact that UNC will still be trying to rebuild with a roster full of players that, based on last year's results, just aren't very good.

FireOgilvie
04-19-2010, 02:31 PM
You sound like a UNC fan after we won the championship the year before. With Kyle gone, you will be relying on a bunch of guys who haven't proven themselves on the NCAA level either. Other than Kyrie, you will have to count on the Plumlee's (who barely saw the floor in the second half on the NC game), Curry (who is benefiting from his brothers reputation and hasn't played a game in a Duke uniform), and a few other players like Kelly who never played much regardless of the situation. Be careful, from one die hard fan to another, what you say now will come back to haunt you.

Words of wisdom.

People seem to forget that UNC soundly beat Michigan State at the beginning of the year last year... the same Michigan State team that went to the Final Four (without their best player) and is preseason top 3 next year.

kong123
04-19-2010, 02:31 PM
You seem to have overlooked the preseason favorite to be ACC Player of the Year in that scenario, but never mind that for now. Of course Duke would have question marks after losing four starters. That doesn't change the fact that UNC will still be trying to rebuild with a roster full of players that, based on last year's results, just aren't very good.

They aren't very good or didn't play well together? I would say that the kids, individually, are very good- they just didn't gel together for some reason. That is the coaches fault and the fault of the players for not being able to figure it out. I believe the failure from this past season will spark a big effort in the off-season to improve over the summer.

A change of attitude will also benefit the kids. They are no longer on top and people have been disrespectful to them and their coach, sounds a lot like this years Duke team, doesn't it?

Billy Dat
04-19-2010, 02:36 PM
KONG123 - My larger point is that I am going to try and spend my energy being happy about what happened this year and not worrying abouy what's happening in Chapel Hill. Plus, what am I worrying about? Like any year, we play 3 times. I want Duke to beat UNC everytime for bragging rights, ACC standings, and seeding implications. I was worried when Roy inked Barnes that the tables had definitively turned. A few months later, Duke got chip #4 and all is right with the world. Shows me I wasted a lot of time worrying, and I am not trying to go back there. For UNC to return to the elite next year, a bunch of kids, unproven on the college level, are going to have to play close to perfect. Good luck to them, I'll be watching my TIVOed Duke/Baylor game imaging Nolan Smith putting that pain on the rest of the US in 2010/2011.

kong123
04-19-2010, 02:40 PM
Good luck to them, I'll be watching my TIVOed Duke/Baylor game imaging Nolan Smith putting that pain on the rest of the US in 2010/2011.


let me know if the ref's call the blocking foul on Zoubek right this time! Would have given Baylor a chance to go up by 4 instead of going down by 2 after Nolan hit that three. I knew at that moment Duke was going to win the championship.

Duvall
04-19-2010, 02:42 PM
They aren't very good or didn't play well together?

Both?

It's certainly true that the 2010 Heels lacked chemistry, but at some point you have to look at big men that aren't big and shooting guards that can't shoot and wonder if they were just overrated coming out of high school.

The incoming freshmen may change this, of course. But three players won't get UNC back to the top of the league by themselves.


A change of attitude will also benefit the kids. They are no longer on top and people have been disrespectful to them and their coach, sounds a lot like this years Duke team, doesn't it?

A key difference is that the 2010 Duke team was coming off a season in which they actually won things.

moonpie23
04-19-2010, 02:44 PM
let me know if the ref's call the blocking foul on Zoubek right this time! Would have given Baylor a chance to go up by 4 instead of going down by 2 after Nolan hit that three. I knew at that moment Duke was going to win the championship.

kong.....repeated viewings of the call obviously don't convince you that the call was correct......\

give it a rest......baylor had the lead after that and lost it......it's just tough to admit that duke was better than they were that night....

kong123
04-19-2010, 02:54 PM
kong.....repeated viewings of the call obviously don't convince you that the call was correct......\

give it a rest......baylor had the lead after that and lost it......it's just tough to admit that duke was better than they were that night....

no, its not tough, it is painful!!!!

Billy Dat
04-19-2010, 02:54 PM
I knew at that moment Duke was going to win the championship.

Me too! It was glorious!!!!!!!!!

airowe
04-19-2010, 02:56 PM
let me know if the ref's call the blocking foul on Zoubek right this time! Would have given Baylor a chance to go up by 4 instead of going down by 2 after Nolan hit that three. I knew at that moment Duke was going to win the championship.

Be careful here. This person can not be reasoned with.

kong123
04-19-2010, 03:05 PM
Be careful here. This person can not be reasoned with.

I could say the same for you my friend!!

Billy Dat
04-19-2010, 03:20 PM
KONG123 - All snark aside, I want to get your take on what I think was the real problem with UNC this year, that Roy "lost" the team. By lost, I mean they tuned him out, he ceased having an impact on them. I take this from his own words, at all of those painful press conferences, that all of his old techniques and tricks were failing him.

When Duke had their two most off years, 1995 and 2007, the situation was different. In 1995, the team had a nice record when K went out. In 2007, the team fought hard all year and K had nothing but praise for them. The 1996 team was a smallish bounce back - the coach had been out - and 2008 was a solid bounce back. Many would argue that McRoberts was the bad seed on the 2007 team.

So what happened in UNC this year? Who on the team were the bad seeds? Was it the senior leadership of Thompson and Ginyard? Ed Davis? I ask because I think it is easier said than done to flip that kind of switch. Those freshmen, now sophomores, were part of a team where they tuned out the coach. I want to see some evidence that they are going to start listening again. Have the bad seeds left?

I think the NIT run was a positive development, they seemed to play with more moxie. They gave themselves something to biuld on. But who were the bad seeds this year, the ones who Ole Roy just couldn't reach?

ElSid
04-19-2010, 03:41 PM
I could say the same for you my friend!!

you could say that. but you wouldn't be making any sense.

charge calls are nearly always subjective. the one in question isn't any different. there have been more obvious charge calls that have been called blocks and vice versa. the charge call, which was neither obviously a charge nor a block but a very tough call to make, was by no means the critical moment of the game, especially given that baylor recovered from this "bad" call to take the lead later.

if you aren't open to the fact that charges are notoriously tough to call. and that some calls go duke's way and some calls do not, then you're not reasonable. and one of the best things about this board, haters and non haters, is that at least they try to be reasonable.

there is a lot of math out there supporting the sane side of this argument...that Duke does not unfairly benefit from kind refereeing. so give it up.

kong123
04-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Roy definitely threw those kids under the bus a few times. For the record, I don't like that he did that and I don't like that he refers to himself in the 3rd person all the time.

Having said that, Roy said many times that he isn't doing anything differently this year than he has for the 18 years prior to this season. This group of kids simply didn't get it. I also do not think Roy took the steps to try and adjust to the personnel the way he should have.

In the end, I think this season was setup for failure. An impossible preseason ranking to live up to. A group of players that didn't have strong leadership characteristics. Freshmen that were not ready to be go-to guys. A point guard that had incredible pressure on him to live up to lofty expectations. Then we had tons of injuries. You can joke all you want about how Roy complains about injuries while K handles everything differently, but the facts are- we had a lot of kids miss a lot of games during our losing streak. We could not shoot the ball from the perimeter. Finally, rumors of transfers sent the fan base into a panic, which only makes things worse.

At the end of the ACC tournament, I do not believe a single UNC fan wanted to go to the NIT. It was a no win situation. If we win, we get made fun of for going and if we lose, we get made fun of for losing. And.. if we didn't make it, well you know the drill.

So, we make it into the NIT, have a little success with a few big wins on the road, some kids making plays to win games, and we start feeling better about it all. Then, in the last game, we look like we did when we played our worst during the season. They appeared not to learn a thing.

We have a lot to learn from last season. We have 3 guys coming in that are all winners. They all won state championships last season and they are all good, positive kids. Will they be able to right the ship? I think they will help. I think losing Ed and Deon will also help. They were too passive to be leaders and that is what the freshmen needed them to be.

4 things need to happen next year for UNC to compete.

1- we have to shoot the ball better
2- we have to defend better
3- we have to take care of the ball
4- we have to have a leader

I know that those 4 goals can be said for each and every team, but they are especially true of the 2009-2010 heels. They had none of those qualities and that is why they ended up 20-17. I think UNC can win a lot of games having only 3 of those qualities against most competition, but to truly be elite, to truly compete for a regular season championship in the ACC and go deep in the NCAA Tourney, you have to have all of those qualities.

kong123
04-19-2010, 03:47 PM
you could say that. but you wouldn't be making any sense.

charge calls are nearly always subjective. the one in question isn't any different. there have been more obvious charge calls that have been called blocks and vice versa. the charge call, which was neither obviously a charge nor a block but a very tough call to make, was by no means the critical moment of the game, especially given that baylor recovered from this "bad" call to take the lead later.

if you aren't open to the fact that charges are notoriously tough to call. and that some calls go duke's way and some calls do not, then you're not reasonable. and one of the best things about this board, haters and non haters, is that at least they try to be reasonable.

there is a lot of math out there supporting the sane side of this argument...that Duke does not unfairly benefit from kind refereeing. so give it up.

my point was, this was a huge call, just like the one in the title game when Hayward got called for a charge after he made the basket. Both times the player scored, both times the call was extremely close, both times Duke got the call. Do I see the game from a different perspective? Yep and so do you. I know the announcers questioned the calls and said that they were close. If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

Scorp4me
04-19-2010, 03:57 PM
If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure they will. But if you flip a coin 9 times and get heads 9 times...you still have a 50% chance of getting heads on the 10th toss. Would d'em be the facts?

I'm saying nothing of the call, just the math. If I'm wrong I will quietly retreat to eat my humble pie.

wilko
04-19-2010, 03:59 PM
If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

So what? Most respectfully, so what if that's the case?

The '86 got short shrift in the title game that yr.
UConn in 98 when Trajan WAS fouled.
The IU game where Boozer was hacked on the putback.

I could go on and on...
Law of averages my friend, things have to even out sooner or later...

IF IF IF you want to be of the camp that says Duke got a gift. Fine.
That's your opinion.

However, I say were were DUE for a few breaks to go our way so, tough noogies.

davekay1971
04-19-2010, 04:00 PM
4 things need to happen next year for UNC to compete.

1- we have to shoot the ball better
2- we have to defend better
3- we have to take care of the ball
4- we have to have a leader

I know that those 4 goals can be said for each and every team, but they are especially true of the 2009-2010 heels. .

Nice post! I think you identified UNC's multiple problems quite nicely. Most particularly, unlike many posts I've seen on IC, you didn't identify lack of talent as one of the problems.

Taking your points:

1) Bullock should help with shooting the ball. Strickland and Drew are not incapable shooters. I'm not sure if Barnes is a legit 3 point threat, but as he is most definitely a wing player who may get decent looks as defenders try to prevent his drive, he at least will have the opportunity to score from the perimeter.

2) This seems to be a chronic problem with Roy. When he's gotten his teams to buy into playing tough defense, they have done well, but it's been a recurring theme and all-too frequent deficit. That makes me think it's not the individual players, it's something about the way he's coaching and preaching defense. Frankly, his heart and head seem to be in the offense. Not sure what your incoming players are going to do for your defense. Your interior defense, at least, should be very good with Henson and Zeller in the paint. Losing Davis won't hurt as much here as Henson, in particular, continues to develop.

3) Will Marshall be ready to play significant ACC minutes? There seems to be no question about his passing ability. But stepping into the PG position in the ACC as a freshman is rough (unless your name is Kyrie Irving, of course ;)). If he's not ready, you've still got Drew and Strickland. They both have potential, but both have yet to prove they can avoid those turnovers.

4) It would be unusual, at any program, for a freshman to step in and become "the leader"...even a freshman as talented as Barnes. Graves, as a senior, is still really a role player. I think it's got to come from Zeller or Drew. They're both juniors. Zeller has talent and plays hard, but he's been limited by injuries. Drew also has desire, and he's the guy with the ball in his hands. I think UNC's success this season may hinge most on Drew...if he makes a leap, becomes a more reliable PG, a leader on defense, and a leader in the locker room, UNC could have a very good year.

Duvall
04-19-2010, 04:01 PM
my point was, this was a huge call, just like the one in the title game when Hayward got called for a charge after he made the basket. Both times the player scored, both times the call was extremely close, both times Duke got the call. Do I see the game from a different perspective? Yep and so do you. I know the announcers questioned the calls and said that they were close. If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

Good, because that's not cherry-picking or anything.

100% of the 50/50 calls that go for Duke, go for Duke. D'ems the facts.

airowe
04-19-2010, 04:04 PM
my point was, this was a huge call, just like the one in the title game when Hayward got called for a charge after he made the basket. Both times the player scored, both times the call was extremely close, both times Duke got the call. Do I see the game from a different perspective? Yep and so do you. I know the announcers questioned the calls and said that they were close. If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

Come on kong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPvhOkEVmm0

Duvall
04-19-2010, 04:05 PM
1) Bullock should help with shooting the ball. Strickland and Drew are not incapable shooters. I'm not sure if Barnes is a legit 3 point threat, but as he is most definitely a wing player who may get decent looks as defenders try to prevent his drive, he at least will have the opportunity to score from the perimeter.

Judging by his performance in all-star games (I know, I know) Barnes is a better shooter than Bullock, but both should help.

I disagree with the notion that Strickland is not an incapable shooter - he shot 23.5% from 3 last year. He's not completely hopeless as a scorer, but he really shouldn't see time except to relieve Bullock and Drew, and that's only if Marshall can't capably back up Drew.

davekay1971
04-19-2010, 04:08 PM
my point was, this was a huge call, just like the one in the title game when Hayward got called for a charge after he made the basket. Both times the player scored, both times the call was extremely close, both times Duke got the call. Do I see the game from a different perspective? Yep and so do you. I know the announcers questioned the calls and said that they were close. If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

A less good post. Let's review the true facts.

Duke won the ACC regular season, ACC championship, and national championship. There were close calls that went for and against Duke all season long. There was no obvious trend toward Duke getting favorable treatment that anyone can identify and support with something resembling facts. If you want to take a couple of isolated calls and say "look, this helped Duke", I'm sure you can do that. Close calls (and bad calls) are going to be made, and sometimes a team will benefit from those calls.

But what is the point? Are you saying that Duke won the NC because of reffing? If so, you're just wrong. You're free to feel that way, but you're wrong. You can join the "Duke won because of the refs" support groups on IC, or on Twerpnet, or KY.net and have nice pissing and moaning sessions with others who feel the same way. But it doesn't change the fact that that argument is a sorry, ignorant, lazy way of looking at the game and not very welcome around here because it fundamentally diminishes the accomplishments of the kids on our team. They earned the NC, just like Hansbrough and co. earned it last year.

As a side note, Carolina fans whining about Duke getting favorable treatment from the refs is particularly funny. It's like Bill Gates pointing at Donald Trump and saying, "That guy's just got too much money!"

JohnGalt
04-19-2010, 04:14 PM
2) This seems to be a chronic problem with Roy. When he's gotten his teams to buy into playing tough defense, they have done well, but it's been a recurring theme and all-too frequent deficit. That makes me think it's not the individual players, it's something about the way he's coaching and preaching defense. Frankly, his heart and head seem to be in the offense. Not sure what your incoming players are going to do for your defense. Your interior defense, at least, should be very good with Henson and Zeller in the paint. Losing Davis won't hurt as much here as Henson, in particular, continues to develop.


I disagree here. Henson will get his fair share of blocks off the weak side because he is long and pretty quick off the floor, but he'll struggle mightily against any back to the basket 4 or 5. Defense will never be his strongpoint until he swallows some iron (a lot of iron).

Zeller's offensive game is probably the most polished of anyone on Duke or UNC (frontcourts, people), but he suffers from The China Syndrome. Up until now he appeared to have been made of porcelain which generally doesn't bode well on the defensive end. I mean, it certainly hasn't thus far.

Unless the Wear Twins can give 15 minutes of quality ball, I expect Carolina to have a hard time against big physical opponents. Their frontcourt just isn't quite there.

RepoMan
04-19-2010, 04:42 PM
We have 3 guys coming in that are all winners. They all won state championships last season and they are all good, positive kids.

I don't think this is quite right. O'Connell (Marshall) finished .500 in its conference (albeit one of the strongest basketball conferences in the country) http://dcsportsfan.com/Sports/BoysBasketball/default.aspx

kong123
04-19-2010, 04:48 PM
I don't think this is quite right. O'Connell (Marshall) finished .500 in its conference (albeit one of the strongest basketball conferences in the country) http://dcsportsfan.com/Sports/BoysBasketball/default.aspx

He may not have won his state championship, but he is a good player and a great kid.

roywhite
04-19-2010, 05:02 PM
KONG123 - All snark aside, I want to get your take on what I think was the real problem with UNC this year, that Roy "lost" the team. By lost, I mean they tuned him out, he ceased having an impact on them. I take this from his own words, at all of those painful press conferences, that all of his old techniques and tricks were failing him.

I think the NIT run was a positive development, they seemed to play with more moxie. They gave themselves something to biuld on. But who were the bad seeds this year, the ones who Ole Roy just couldn't reach?

Billy, agree with you, and I think that's the most interesting element of the Heels' season. I've followed Penn State football for as long as Joe Paterno has been head coach, which is 44 years. Joe has admitted to "losing his team" for two of those seasons. It happens.

It's usually a case of upperclassmen not buying into what the coach wants and creating factions within the team. I don't have inside info to single out players off this year's Tarheel roster, but seems to me the coach didn't adapt well to the talent available and the upperclassmen did not provide leadership.

From my Penn State example and in other instances also, the following year can be entirely different.

JohnGalt
04-19-2010, 05:03 PM
I think we should all show Kong we are merciful Devils and move on...

Most agree that Prince Harry is bringing a tremendous skill set into Chapel Hill next year. Do you all think that will translate into him being the largest contributor on next year's Heels? If so, how would you then rank the others? Do you all think Bullock will come in and provide more than Strickland or will the experience win out? Do you all think Marshall will replace Drew at some point? I'm interested to hear the different viewpoints regarding who will have the most impact as a freshman or sophomore for the Heels...

Kedsy
04-19-2010, 05:04 PM
my point was, this was a huge call, just like the one in the title game when Hayward got called for a charge after he made the basket. Both times the player scored, both times the call was extremely close, both times Duke got the call. Do I see the game from a different perspective? Yep and so do you. I know the announcers questioned the calls and said that they were close. If they truly were 50/50 calls, then Duke got the call both times. That's all I am saying. You can throw all the math at me you want, d'ems the facts.

I know someone else already said something like this, but I could name lots of calls that went the other way (like when Kyle dished to Jon for a made three that would have put the championship game out of reach, but the basket was wiped out when a charge was called on Kyle). You can't arbitrarily name two calls that went Duke's way and say because they're 50/50 calls one of them should have gone against Duke. There were dozens of 50/50 calls in Duke's NCAAT run and I haven't tallied them individually, but I bet around half of them went each way.

I also know you're just saying this to get under our skins, but come on. The Butler game, in particularly was absolutely not called in Duke's favor. If anything it was the other way.


4) It would be unusual, at any program, for a freshman to step in and become "the leader"...even a freshman as talented as Barnes. Graves, as a senior, is still really a role player. I think it's got to come from Zeller or Drew. They're both juniors. Zeller has talent and plays hard, but he's been limited by injuries. Drew also has desire, and he's the guy with the ball in his hands.

I think the poster who said this is selling HB short. He will be UNC's leader, for good or ill.

roywhite
04-19-2010, 05:10 PM
I think the poster who said this is selling HB short. He will be UNC's leader, for good or ill.

Taking a charge in Chapel Hill will mean stepping in between HB and the nearest camera or microphone. ;)

Duvall
04-19-2010, 05:10 PM
I think we should all show Kong we are merciful Devils and move on...

Most agree that Prince Harry is bringing a tremendous skill set into Chapel Hill next year. Do you all think that will translate into him being the largest contributor on next year's Heels?

Yes. By default - there isn't much competition from the veterans - but even if there were, his skills would still win out.


If so, how would you then rank the others?

1. Barnes
2. Zeller
3. Henson
4. Drew
5. Bullock
6-13. Other


Do you all think Bullock will come in and provide more than Strickland or will the experience win out?

He could hardly provide less. Experience doesn't matter much when all the experiences are bad ones.


Do you all think Marshall will replace Drew at some point?

Yes, in the fall of 2012. That is, unless Roy successfully recruits over him, in which case the answer is never.

moonpie23
04-19-2010, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE=JohnGalt;399549]I think we should all show Kong we are merciful Devils and move on...[QUOTE]


mmm, no.....i think until kong comes in here and admits that duke beat everyone put before them fair and square WITHOUT the backhand of "refs" or "brackets" or any other bs, then we just continue to hammer as we get hammered.....

Chris4UNC
04-19-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm sure most of you, like myself, have a friend or someone you know who is a UNC fan. One of my friends with this disorder is in my ear non stop about how well the Heels are going to bounce back next year and dominate the ACC. Do I have cause for concern?

Honestly, I don't see it. Improve? Yes. Dominate? No. Am I wrong to believe that our (duke) returning players have more to offer than theirs? Duke is returning six players from a NC team, while they're returning as the runners up of the NIT championship game. Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I probably am), but didn't they have seven or so All Americans this year? We know now that Davis is gone, however, they are adding three new AA's.

The way I see it (this is only my opinion), the fact that Kyrie will have the ball in his hands, he will likely have as much impact on a game as HB. Due to experience, Curry's presence should have a larger impact in most games than Bullock (freshman), and Nolan as of today is a better all around player than Marshall. I haven't even added in Hairston, Felix, and Thornton. As far as Dre, Kelly, and the Plums, I just see their experience on the big stage (NCAA, though limited experience) as being an advantage for DUKE over UNC throughout this season. I don't think the Heels are ready to take the ACC crown, but they will probably be Duke's most formidable opponent. I feel confident, but not overly.

Is there cause for concern?

I think Duke will come out on top with UNC battling for 2nd through 4th. If UNC manages to win the regular season it will depend more on an unexpected Duke loss here or there more than anything else.
The Heels will be better, yes. But as this year showed chemistry is just as if not more important than raw talent. The Heels started strong and won a few games against some highly ranked opponents. When they beat at the time #9 Michigan State with ease I thought maybe, just maybe that pre-season ranking was not inflated. Then, well we know what happened. Yeah, they have 3 of of the top five players coming in with Scout.com ranking the recruit class at 4th but after this past season I am in "wait and see" mode. I think the Heels returning experience and great recruits will get them in the mix atop the ACC.

JohnGalt
04-19-2010, 05:34 PM
He could hardly provide less. Experience doesn't matter much when all the experiences are bad ones.



Yes, in the fall of 2012. That is, unless Roy successfully recruits over him, in which case the answer is never.

Definitively put. Bullock's been sliding down the rankings as quickly as anyone though and the public hasn't exactly been sold on the play of Larry Drew Two. Don't forget Strickland was a stud on the St Patricks team with Kyrie and Marshall's biggest attribute is his vision. He can't move like Felton or Lawson, but the rumor is that he sees the court equally as well, perhaps better.

Anyhow, I think it's hardly definitive. I'd love to see some of the pre-season Heels practices. It seems to me its gong to be open tryouts for all 5 spots, except for whichever one Barnes decides he wants to play...

MarkD83
04-19-2010, 08:42 PM
Bullock's been sliding down the rankings as quickly as anyone though ...

But hold on a second, Andre Dawkins can't cover him. Perhaps Kyle or Carrick can.

Welcome2DaSlopes
04-19-2010, 08:55 PM
With Kyle back....Um not anymore.

striker219
04-19-2010, 08:56 PM
You sound like a UNC fan after we won the championship the year before. With Kyle gone....

Yeah, about that...

Big Pappa
04-19-2010, 09:24 PM
Well we found someone to guard HB next year. Welcome back Kyle!

RoyalBlue08
04-19-2010, 09:25 PM
Nope

DoubleDuke Dad
04-19-2010, 09:38 PM
Well we found someone to guard HB next year. Welcome back Kyle!

Too bad they donít have anyone to guard Kyle!

Big Pappa
04-19-2010, 09:42 PM
Too bad they donít have anyone to guard Kyle!

Amen!

Bluedevil114
04-19-2010, 09:56 PM
UNC will be better but Duke will be complete and full of confidence as the defending National Champions. I think Duke goes undefeated in the ACC and will be competing with Michigan State for the number one overall seed in the tournament next year.

Go Duke!!

Vincetaylor
04-19-2010, 09:59 PM
I think this thread can now be officially locked. Not even worthy of discussion anymore.

dukeblue225
04-19-2010, 10:01 PM
I can't wait to see Kyle give HB the business, and let him know that we're a better team without him.

I wish good luck to LDII or any other UNC guard attempting to play defense on K Irving and Seth Curry.

DukieInBrasil
04-19-2010, 10:15 PM
It's been said already, but I'll say it again. With Kyle staying, UNC is not a concern. We will beat them every time we play them next year. Perhaps this year's 30pt whooping will be surpassed on multiple occasions.

dukeballboy88
04-19-2010, 10:18 PM
Whats scary is Tyler Thornton shut kendall marshall down 2 out of 3 times they played and the other night in the jordan brand game espn didnt even list thornton as as a duke recruit. its showed irving and hairston.

Cameron
04-19-2010, 11:56 PM
Only if Roy starts shooting everyone in the crowd when we're up 30.

proelitedota
04-20-2010, 12:13 AM
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

RockLobster
04-20-2010, 02:25 AM
A look at UNC's depth for next year (according to me):

1. Marshall............Drew II
2. Strickland..........Bullock..........McDonald
3. Barnes..............Graves
4. Henson..............D. Wear
5. Zeller................T. Wear

The Heels lose Ginyard and Thompson and bring in Barnes and two guards.

Marshall is a very good player, but he doesn't appear to be an elite-level PG like Irving is expected to be, or Ty Lawson. He should be an improvement over Drew II, though.

Obviously, the two guys we really need to watch are Barnes and Bullock. Fortunately, I think we match up well with both of them. Last season, Singler routinely surprised me with how quickly he was able to come up and defend quick/athletic guards and wings. Defending Barnes will be tough, but there's no way I'd say Singler will be overmatched.

Duke clearly has the athleticism at guard to defend Bullock, with Irving and Smith.

Another player who impressed me with his quickness last year was Dex Strickland...his game was very raw, but I saw a LOT of room for growth.

The key for UNC, I think, will be how much Henson continues to develop.

UNC will be better next year, and shouldn't be taken lightly...there won't be another 32-point blowout win at CIS, I can tell you that right now.

Duke, I think, will still be significantly better...we match up well with UNC and also have loads more experience. Dealing with Barnes, Bullock, and Henson all being on the floor at the same time will be a chore, though.

kong123
04-20-2010, 08:01 AM
WOW!

Guess Duke is back, huh?

I still find it hard to believe that Duke won the championship this year. Really didn't think this particular team was good enough, but they in fact won. Next years team will be significantly more talented and more balanced. That is when a team is truly dangerous, when they can beat you in multiple ways.

I hope that we can steal a game next season to avoid a sweep two years in a row. I think we will be talented enough to beat Duke but not sure if we will be able to pull it all together to do so.

Congratulations on your great season and your good news. Its nice to see kids stay around, even if it is apparent that the kid wanted to go to the NBA. In the end, it will be good for the program and good for the kid. He will have a chance to become a legend.

Indoor66
04-20-2010, 08:26 AM
WOW!

Guess Duke is back, huh?

I still find it hard to believe that Duke won the championship this year. Really didn't think this particular team was good enough, but they in fact won. Next years team will be significantly more talented and more balanced. That is when a team is truly dangerous, when they can beat you in multiple ways.

I hope that we can steal a game next season to avoid a sweep two years in a row. I think we will be talented enough to beat Duke but not sure if we will be able to pull it all together to do so.

Congratulations on your great season and your good news. Its nice to see kids stay around, even if it is apparent that the kid wanted to go to the NBA. In the end, it will be good for the program and good for the kid. He will have a chance to become a legend.

If that is the case, then you are not talented enough! :D

YourLandlord
04-20-2010, 08:33 AM
If that is the case, then you are not talented enough! :D
Well, maybe their players are talented enough, but the coach is not! :D

MChambers
04-20-2010, 08:38 AM
WOW!

Guess Duke is back, huh?

I still find it hard to believe that Duke won the championship this year. Really didn't think this particular team was good enough, but they in fact won. Next years team will be significantly more talented and more balanced. That is when a team is truly dangerous, when they can beat you in multiple ways.

I hope that we can steal a game next season to avoid a sweep two years in a row. I think we will be talented enough to beat Duke but not sure if we will be able to pull it all together to do so.
Congratulations on your great season and your good news. Its nice to see kids stay around, even if it is apparent that the kid wanted to go to the NBA. In the end, it will be good for the program and good for the kid. He will have a chance to become a legend.

Nice dig on Singler. Did Hansbrough have that same wish?

As far as talent goes, Duke will only have 5 McDonald's all Americans, while UNC will have 9. Duke will prevail only if it has superior coaching, more effort, and a more cohesive group.

slower
04-20-2010, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE=JohnGalt;399549]I think we should all show Kong we are merciful Devils and move on...[QUOTE]

Kong just doesn't know when to quit. He brings it on himself. We may move on, but he NEVER will.

Indoor66
04-20-2010, 08:46 AM
Well, maybe their players are talented enough, but the coach is not! :D

Isn't the team the sum of ALL parts? Not talented enough!

77devil
04-20-2010, 08:51 AM
Guess Duke is back, huh?

This is an egregious mischaracterization, but not a surprise given the source. A school whose teams won the ACC tournament in 2009 and posted consecutive 30 and 28 win seasons never was down. The question is will UNC be back after this season's total meltdown. Even in 2007, Duke won 22 games after losing 4 of it's top of 6 players to graduation and, with less raw talent, outperformed this seasons' Heels.

kong123
04-20-2010, 10:06 AM
just because my view point is different than yours doesn't mean that I am asking for trouble. Would you prefer that I leave and not post here just so everyone speaks with the same unified voice? There are plenty of Duke fans that post on the IC forum.

I always try to be respectful and I always try to approach things from a point of view that isn't completely biased to UNC, but sometimes I fail. I am a true UNC fan just like you are true Duke fans. I just enjoy good conversations. I do not believe I have the power or influence to change which team someone pulls for or even soften the criticism of this board towards UNC, that would be silly.

If anything, I have more respect for Duke fans after being a member for a while. My time here has also helped me appreciate the rivalry more than I have before. We are more a like than we are different, we just love different shades of blue.

JohnGalt
04-20-2010, 10:13 AM
*sigh*

I tried.

Johnboy
04-20-2010, 10:19 AM
This is an egregious mischaracterization, but not a surprise given the source. A school whose teams won the ACC tournament in 2009 and posted consecutive 30 and 28 win seasons never was down. The question is will UNC be back after this season's total meltdown. Even in 2007, Duke won 22 games after losing 4 of it's top of 6 players to graduation and, with less raw talent, outperformed this seasons' Heels.

Well, as Nike says: "Order has been restored." Certainly, rumors of Duke's demise were greatly exaggerated, but even throughout the tournament, all the pundits were incredulous that Duke continued to advance. So in that sense, "Duke is back" - which is to say, Duke isn't going to sneak up on anyone next year, a #1 seed isn't going to be a surprise (but rather the lack of one would be), and expectations are back where they were from 1998 - 2004. All of which is very very nice, if we can remember to enjoy the wins as much/more than hating the losses and feel actual joy instead of just relief after a good hard-fought close game. That's a lot of what made this season fun for me - I was able to live in the moment and appreciate the win, taking a cue from Coach K, who, after returning from the Olympics said: (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/26428172/)
"Sometimes being here at Duke, because we've been very, very successful ... they expect you to be perfect. They don't look at process anymore,'' Krzyzewski said. "It's like, 'What, we haven't gone to the Final Four? What, we didn't win the national (title)? Very spoiled, and it ruins it a little bit — really, a lot.

"Part of that then becomes, you win, and sometimes you're just relieved to win,'' he added. "I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it happens. At the end of that Spain game, most people would say, 'Weren't you relieved?' No, I wasn't. I was exhilarated. It was euphoric. It was the way it should be. That's the way it's going to be for the rest of my career here at Duke.''
Here's to many many more exhilarating, euphoric moments!

Johnboy
04-20-2010, 10:22 AM
just because my view point is different than yours doesn't mean that I am asking for trouble. Would you prefer that I leave and not post here just so everyone speaks with the same unified voice? There are plenty of Duke fans that post on the IC forum.

I always try to be respectful and I always try to approach things from a point of view that isn't completely biased to UNC, but sometimes I fail. I am a true UNC fan just like you are true Duke fans. I just enjoy good conversations. I do not believe I have the power or influence to change which team someone pulls for or even soften the criticism of this board towards UNC, that would be silly.

If anything, I have more respect for Duke fans after being a member for a while. My time here has also helped me appreciate the rivalry more than I have before. We are more a like than we are different, we just love different shades of blue.

Keep on keepin' on, Kong123. We don't need an echo chamber here. Don't mind the thin-skinned among us. Keep posting.

flyingdutchdevil
04-20-2010, 10:26 AM
I'm a Duke fan, and I'll be the first to admit that I though Duke had slipped some. My senior year was 2006-2007 and the whole campus was devastated by our performance throughout the year. I firmly believe that it took Duke a few years to get back. I personally thought the turning point was last year when we made it to the Sweet Sixteen (and got over an embarrasing two year hiatus from that level). I thought Duke was back then. This year, however, was great and showed that K has more than a little left in the tank. Couple that with the exciting recruitment we've experienced in the last 12 months (and the next 6 months, I hope), and we're definitely "back"

DoubleDuke Dad
04-20-2010, 10:38 AM
just because my view point is different than yours doesn't mean that I am asking for trouble. Would you prefer that I leave and not post here just so everyone speaks with the same unified voice? There are plenty of Duke fans that post on the IC forum.

I always try to be respectful and I always try to approach things from a point of view that isn't completely biased to UNC, but sometimes I fail. I am a true UNC fan just like you are true Duke fans. I just enjoy good conversations. I do not believe I have the power or influence to change which team someone pulls for or even soften the criticism of this board towards UNC, that would be silly.

If anything, I have more respect for Duke fans after being a member for a while. My time here has also helped me appreciate the rivalry more than I have before. We are more a like than we are different, we just love different shades of blue.

Discussion is fine. Stating your opinion is fine. Taking cheap shots such as ďIts nice to see kids stay around, even if it is apparent that the kid wanted to go to the NBA.Ē is not so fine. If you would cut out these kinds of posts then you will find that people will not be attacking you.

Billy Dat
04-20-2010, 10:43 AM
KONG123 - I agree with JohnBoy, it is valuable to have the lighter shade of blue perspective, even if it results in you being pelted with virtual rocks. I don't live in North Carolina so I don't suffer, as many here do, being surrounded by rabid Heel fans. I deal with everyone else who hates Duke because they are Duke. At least Heel fans have the rivalry to fuel the hate. Now, go to hell, but please do keep posting.

Big Pappa
04-20-2010, 10:47 AM
KONG123 - I agree with JohnBoy, it is valuable to have the lighter shade of blue perspective, even if it results in you being pelted with virtual rocks. I don't live in North Carolina so I don't suffer, as many here do, being surrounded by rabid Heel fans. I deal with everyone else who hates Duke because they are Duke. At least Heel fans have the rivalry to fuel the hate. Now, go to hell, but please do keep posting.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

kong123
04-20-2010, 11:09 AM
Discussion is fine. Stating your opinion is fine. Taking cheap shots such as “Its nice to see kids stay around, even if it is apparent that the kid wanted to go to the NBA.” is not so fine. If you would cut out these kinds of posts then you will find that people will not be attacking you.

The kid was trying to make a decision on whether or not to go pro. He was apparently on a 3 year plan according to comments Coach K has made over the years. His competitive fires would leave you to believe that he feels he is good enough to make the jump. The reason he didn't go isn't necessarily because he needs to improve, its because his draft status isn't good enough. If you took my comments as a slight, you are wrong. You said the very same thing concerning Lawson, Ellington, and Green. All three felt they were good enough, two of them were not, one of them had to come back after some legal trouble. Kyle wants the challenge of the next level and had his draft stock been top 13 or so, he would be gone. Can we agree upon that? Don't make a harmless comment into a negative one just because I am a UNC fan.

kong123
04-20-2010, 11:37 AM
looks like my "Christian Laettner" status has been removed, thats funny!

77devil
04-20-2010, 12:59 PM
Well, as Nike says: "Order has been restored." Certainly, rumors of Duke's demise were greatly exaggerated, but even throughout the tournament, all the pundits were incredulous that Duke continued to advance. So in that sense, "Duke is back" - which is to say, Duke isn't going to sneak up on anyone next year, a #1 seed isn't going to be a surprise (but rather the lack of one would be), and expectations are back where they were from 1998 - 2004.

I don't measure Duke's success by the opinions of pundits or a clever Nike slogan. I guess if that's your basis that explains your sense that Duke is back. Nor do I believe the championship harkens a return to the 1998-2004 era. Those are not my expectations. If you are referring to same pundits who trumpeted Duke's demise, I would suggest you consider the sources.

I would submit that Duke didn't really sneak up on anybody. It's the most exposed team in college basketball, and the media was largely in lockstep from selection Sunday that Duke had an easy path to the Final Four, even though that was nonsense. I believe the team's success in beating the pundits' predictions of its failure each round was more a reflection of their desire for Duke to fail.

Duke basketball in the coach K era has competed at the highest level since 1984 with few exceptions. I don't consider 2005 - 2009 to be a down period. There was too much success, notwithstanding the arguable under performance in the NCAA tournament. My view is tempered by my first hand experiences during Duke's dark period in the early to mid 70's. However, others' expectations as to what constitutes ongoing success, or not, for the Duke men's basketball program are simply unrealistic.

CrazieDUMB
04-20-2010, 01:22 PM
Kong, like many posters here I appreciate having some insight from the other end of 15-501. Since it pains me to see the UNC colors I'd much rather hear about the team from you than go to ESPN or somewhere else.

If it makes you feel better, remember that two years ago around this time I was absolutely furious that Ellington, Lawson and Green all came back. Like you, I remember thinking they are the definite odds-on favorite and I hoped to just steal a win. I had to watch a guy with fewer brain cells than my athlete's foot fungus win in our house all four years I was there. Nice to know that the pendulum swings both ways.

kong123
04-20-2010, 01:35 PM
I had to watch a guy with fewer brain cells than my athlete's foot fungus win in our house all four years I was there. Nice to know that the pendulum swings both ways.

The pendulum definitely swings both ways. I think your quote above is funny. I understand why you think he is a mindless zombie who gets all the calls and walks all over the floor, but if I would have said the same comment concerning a Duke player, I would have been banned. Also, part of this is how much you hated him for his success. I know I am on a Duke forum and I know that I will be admonished for far less that one of your fellow Dukies might for saying the same thing. Its OK with me. I enjoy the challenge of the debate, it stokes the fire long after the season is over.

CrazieDUMB
04-20-2010, 01:44 PM
The pendulum definitely swings both ways. I think your quote above is funny. I understand why you think he is a mindless zombie who gets all the calls and walks all over the floor, but if I would have said the same comment concerning a Duke player, I would have been banned. Also, part of this is how much you hated him for his success. I know I am on a Duke forum and I know that I will be admonished for far less that one of your fellow Dukies might for saying the same thing. Its OK with me. I enjoy the challenge of the debate, it stokes the fire long after the season is over.

True, but if you're worried about not having a forum to bash Duke players, I might direct you to the other 99.9% of forums where any and all duke insults are fully appreciated. With all the hate out there I think DBR has structured itself as somewhat of a safe haven for those of us Duke fans that live in unfriendly markets.

kong123
04-20-2010, 01:50 PM
Nice dig on Singler. Did Hansbrough have that same wish?

Hansbrough never announced thathe was considering leaving early for the NBA at any time during his career and he was national player of the year his junior year. It was obvious that he loved the college game and wasn't concerned about the next level. The only people concerned about Hansbrough and the NBA were the announcers. It made good conversation to discuss whether or not he would be successful in the NBA. Comparing him to Nolan Smith would have been more accurate, both said they were coming back immediately after the season ended.

kong123
04-20-2010, 01:51 PM
True, but if you're worried about not having a forum to bash Duke players, I might direct you to the other 99.9% of forums where any and all duke insults are fully appreciated. With all the hate out there I think DBR has structured itself as somewhat of a safe haven for those of us Duke fans that live in unfriendly markets.

I am a member of the IC premium board and never post there. I find the forum fun to read but not very informative for the most part.

Taco
04-20-2010, 02:08 PM
The more obvious response to the Singler "wanting to be in the NBA" dig is Tywon.

hedevil
04-20-2010, 03:55 PM
Now that Kyle is coming back, I'm a little less concerned. Speaking of being concerned, I think HB should be a little concerned. HB has got to be thanking himself that he stopped his future teammate Bullock from talking smack on his behalf. Not that Kyle doesn't always, but I hope he really plays with a chip on his shoulder in those UNC games. If not because of HB, then because of Bullock popping off at the gums.