PDA

View Full Version : Two different times on the missed shot?



ath20
04-12-2010, 10:41 AM
Can anyone explain this picture from SI? I checked CBS and they had 0.3 on the screen.

DukieInKansas
04-12-2010, 11:07 AM
I noticed that also. And if you watch the end of the game, the buzzer sounds and the CBS time on the screen is not at 0.00 yet - at least in the online versions I've seen. I haven't watched my recording of the game yet.

should_be_working
04-12-2010, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I just picked up this issue of SI today, saw the picture, and was thinking that with 00.1 seconds left and the ball still in Hayward's hand, how in the world could he have gotten it off in time. Doesn't matter now that he missed, but I suspect if he made the shot, the clock would have become a MAJOR issue.

uh_no
04-12-2010, 11:21 AM
Can anyone explain this picture from SI? I checked CBS and they had 0.3 on the screen.

For anyone at the stadium, the clock on the screen was always several ticks behind the actual clock...almost a full second in the case of the shot clock....i believe, though, that the feed the refs look at has either a camera on the actual clock, or they can just look for the bright red light....either way, it's the light that rules the day

MulletMan
04-12-2010, 11:23 AM
CBS was showing the arena clock. The official time is the time on the shot clock. Needless to say, that if you watch the game and listen for the horn, its real dicey if he gets the shot off before the horn. If you watch the one replay from the baseline, where you can see the red light on the backboard, it gets even dicier.

How many people think that they would have reviewed it if it had gone in?

(My hand is not up, BTW.)

sagegrouse
04-12-2010, 11:25 AM
I think the one that says "0.1" was controlled by Coach K. :) :rolleyes:

sagegrouse

gumbomoop
04-12-2010, 11:52 AM
I think the one that says "0.1" was controlled by Coach K. :) :rolleyes:

sagegrouse

I'm pretty sure you're onto something here, as it's certainly widely understood that K controls the refs, too.

Anyhow, this is one area where I just cannot stand how K does things. If he's gonna control the bloody clock, why the hell doesn't it read 00.0? For all his strengths, K doesn't seem to care enough about heart attacks among DBR posters.

In a game this important, that the clock doesn't read 00.0 is just inexcusable. K spending too much time on Olympics, or something.

uh_no
04-12-2010, 12:08 PM
CBS was showing the arena clock. The official time is the time on the shot clock. Needless to say, that if you watch the game and listen for the horn, its real dicey if he gets the shot off before the horn. If you watch the one replay from the baseline, where you can see the red light on the backboard, it gets even dicier.

How many people think that they would have reviewed it if it had gone in?

(My hand is not up, BTW.)

It would absolutely have gotten reviewed.

Anyway, you're right, the official time is on the shot clock, not any of the various score boards or TV feed. That said, the rule is written so that the official end of the game is when the red light goes on on the backboard. They would have watched the TV feed, likely from the baseline by the duke bench in a shot with both the backboard and hayward in it to see if the ball was still in his hand when the backboard lit up. With it so firmly in his hand with the clock at .1, I'm gonna guess he actually didn't get it off. I was there live and didn't think he got it off.

Mudge
04-12-2010, 12:22 PM
It would absolutely have gotten reviewed.

Anyway, you're right, the official time is on the shot clock, not any of the various score boards or TV feed. That said, the rule is written so that the official end of the game is when the red light goes on on the backboard. They would have watched the TV feed, likely from the baseline by the duke bench in a shot with both the backboard and hayward in it to see if the ball was still in his hand when the backboard lit up. With it so firmly in his hand with the clock at .1, I'm gonna guess he actually didn't get it off. I was there live and didn't think he got it off.

Being at the game, looking through the backboard with the red light coming on, as Hayward shot the ball, that was my perception too-- can you imagine the riot in that place, if some 65,000 of the 71,000 fans just thought they got jobbed by the refs-- would have made the Maryland riots after Duke losses look pretty pale by comparison...

Of course, it wouldn't have held a candle to the reaction, if the ref at half-court, standing right next to Hayward, Howard, and Singler, who was looking directly at the highly illegal screen by Howard on Singler, had raised his hand to call that 5th foul on Howard there (rather than to signal that Hayward's shot would be good for 3 points), if Hayward had made it-- in the previous situation of "was the shot released in time", there would have been indisputable TV evidence that the ball was in Hayward's hand when the basket red light went on-- in the second case, it would have been a judgment call by the ref that Howard fouled Singler to free Hayward, and no matter how many refs came on to say that Howard's screen was illegal, 99.44% of all basketball fans would be sure that: 1) Duke gets all the calls; 2) Coach K controls the refs; and 3) Butler got robbed of their deserved victory... that would have been a riot worthy of the name.

fan345678
04-12-2010, 12:30 PM
I saw that pic on Saturday and immediately looked through my DVR of the game. Somehow he did get it off before the red backboard light went on, but I did notice that one of the Butler cheerleaders broke into wild celebration after it missed.

LSanders
04-12-2010, 12:41 PM
I think the one that says "0.1" was controlled by Coach K. :) :rolleyes:

sagegrouse


Thank, God, he also controls the rims!!



I saw that pic on Saturday and immediately looked through my DVR of the game. Somehow he did get it off before the red backboard light went on, but I did notice that one of the Butler cheerleaders broke into wild celebration after it missed.


A cheerleader who's a closet Blue Devil fan? Are the lions and the lambs lying together too? :rolleyes:

YourLandlord
04-12-2010, 12:42 PM
but I did notice that one of the Butler cheerleaders broke into wild celebration after it missed.

Yes! Besides us winning, this was my favorite part of the game.

uh_no
04-12-2010, 12:49 PM
I saw that pic on Saturday and immediately looked through my DVR of the game. Somehow he did get it off before the red backboard light went on, but I did notice that one of the Butler cheerleaders broke into wild celebration after it missed.

any chance you can get us a screen shot from the DVR?

BlueDevilBaby
04-12-2010, 12:55 PM
I saw that pic on Saturday and immediately looked through my DVR of the game. Somehow he did get it off before the red backboard light went on, but I did notice that one of the Butler cheerleaders broke into wild celebration after it missed.

So did a Butler assistant coach, as Stevens sank to his knees.

fan345678
04-12-2010, 01:02 PM
any chance you can get us a screen shot from the DVR?

unlikely. I'm pretty incompetent when it comes to things like that.
But if I can, do you want a screen shot of the ball out of Hayward's hands or of the cheerleader celebrating the loss?

rsvman
04-12-2010, 01:06 PM
I think the shot clock reaches 0.0, the red light around the backboard lights up, and then the horn sounds.

when push comes to shove in these situations, I'm 95% sure it's the shot clock rather than the red light that determines whether the shot has been released in time.

In the famous 6 OT game between Syracuse and Georgetown last season, a three was shot maybe a hundredth of a second after time expired in regulation. The shot went in but was not counted because it was too late.

Had Hayward's shot gone in, they would've looked at the clock very carefully, and would have had to prove indisputably that the shot was released before the clock reached double zero. Had the shot been late, everybody would've had obvious physical evidence in front of their eyes; it would have been impossible to blame that one on "Duke gets all the calls."

I would ALMOST have rather lost the game then to have it decided by a foul call on Howard and a made shot by Hayward waved off. The ensuing frenzy might never have ended.

wilson
04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
I would ALMOST have rather lost the game then to have it decided by a foul call on Howard and a made shot by Hayward waved off. The ensuing frenzy might never have ended.Dave McClure/Clemson x 89 billion.

fan345678
04-12-2010, 01:22 PM
I think the shot clock reaches 0.0, the red light around the backboard lights up, and then the horn sounds.

when push comes to shove in these situations, I'm 95% sure it's the shot clock rather than the red light that determines whether the shot has been released in time.

In the famous 6 OT game between Syracuse and Georgetown last season, a three was shot maybe a hundredth of a second after time expired in regulation. The shot went in but was not counted because it was too late.

Had Hayward's shot gone in, they would've looked at the clock very carefully, and would have had to prove indisputably that the shot was released before the clock reached double zero. Had the shot been late, everybody would've had obvious physical evidence in front of their eyes; it would have been impossible to blame that one on "Duke gets all the calls."

I would ALMOST have rather lost the game then to have it decided by a foul call on Howard and a made shot by Hayward waved off. The ensuing frenzy might never have ended.

The ball was out of his hand when the clock on top of the backboard still read "0.1"

DukieInKansas
04-12-2010, 01:23 PM
Dave McClure/Clemson x 89 billion.

Very true!

uh_no
04-12-2010, 01:26 PM
I think the shot clock reaches 0.0, the red light around the backboard lights up, and then the horn sounds.

when push comes to shove in these situations, I'm 95% sure it's the shot clock rather than the red light that determines whether the shot has been released in time.

In the famous 6 OT game between Syracuse and Georgetown last season, a three was shot maybe a hundredth of a second after time expired in regulation. The shot went in but was not counted because it was too late.

Had Hayward's shot gone in, they would've looked at the clock very carefully, and would have had to prove indisputably that the shot was released before the clock reached double zero. Had the shot been late, everybody would've had obvious physical evidence in front of their eyes; it would have been impossible to blame that one on "Duke gets all the calls."

I would ALMOST have rather lost the game then to have it decided by a foul call on Howard and a made shot by Hayward waved off. The ensuing frenzy might never have ended.

I'm 90% sure its the red light. I remember a situation a few years ago where the red light was delayed by like .4 seconds, and the shot came in that gap, and they were discussing what the refs should do, because by the letter of the law, the shot should count, but by common sense, it shouldn't. I'm not sure if they changed the rule, but thats how it used to be. Either way, the time between the clock hitting 0 and the red light lighting is probably close to about the frame length of the camera, meaning any difference between the two would be indecipherable on the replay.

Stray Gator
04-12-2010, 01:31 PM
The ball was out of his hand when the clock on top of the backboard still read "0.1"

Unless the photo in the Sports Illustrated article was doctored, I don't believe there's any way it would have been physically possible for Hayward to have released a shot with that force and trajectory from the position he was in within one-tenth of a second. In that photo, Hayward's right hand is still under the ball, with his thumb and fingers on a plane parallel to the floor, his left hand is only about 4-6 inches off the ball, his forearm appears to be perpendicular to the court with the elbow still below his shoulder. If he released the ball at that instant, I doubt that it would have traveled more than a few feet in the air.

DukieBoy
04-12-2010, 01:38 PM
I think the shot clock reaches 0.0, the red light around the backboard lights up, and then the horn sounds.

when push comes to shove in these situations, I'm 95% sure it's the shot clock rather than the red light that determines whether the shot has been released in time.

In the famous 6 OT game between Syracuse and Georgetown last season, a three was shot maybe a hundredth of a second after time expired in regulation. The shot went in but was not counted because it was too late.

Had Hayward's shot gone in, they would've looked at the clock very carefully, and would have had to prove indisputably that the shot was released before the clock reached double zero. Had the shot been late, everybody would've had obvious physical evidence in front of their eyes; it would have been impossible to blame that one on "Duke gets all the calls."

I would ALMOST have rather lost the game then to have it decided by a foul call on Howard and a made shot by Hayward waved off. The ensuing frenzy might never have ended.

The progression is always clock, light, horn.

There's a very minimal delay between each one, so when they review things, they always check the clock. The red light is used in case they didn't get it off. If it's obvious they didn't get it off before the light, there's no use further investigating.

And this isn't the first time Butler would have been involved in clock issues.

Check this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0KjNXdDQs) (fast forward to about 6:40)

sagegrouse
04-12-2010, 01:44 PM
Unless the photo in the Sports Illustrated article was doctored, I don't believe there's any way it would have been physically possible for Hayward to have released a shot with that force and trajectory from the position he was in within one-tenth of a second. In that photo, Hayward's right hand is still under the ball, with his thumb and fingers on a plane parallel to the floor, his left hand is only about 4-6 inches off the ball, his forearm appears to be perpendicular to the court with the elbow still below his shoulder. If he released the ball at that instant, I doubt that it would have traveled more than a few feet in the air.

Stray, this is very convincing, but for the ultimate opinion, I think we need to hear from "Greybeard." :) :rolleyes:

sagegrouse
'Enjoyed meeting you in Indy'

fan345678
04-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Unless the photo in the Sports Illustrated article was doctored, I don't believe there's any way it would have been physically possible for Hayward to have released a shot with that force and trajectory from the position he was in within one-tenth of a second. In that photo, Hayward's right hand is still under the ball, with his thumb and fingers on a plane parallel to the floor, his left hand is only about 4-6 inches off the ball, his forearm appears to be perpendicular to the court with the elbow still below his shoulder. If he released the ball at that instant, I doubt that it would have traveled more than a few feet in the air.

Other than the fact that I am this very second looking at a paused shot of the screen that shows the ball out of Hayward's hand and the clock reading "0.1," I don't know what I can tell you. The next frame has the clock reading "0.0," the backboard light on, and the ball several feet on its way. I've got DirecTV, so if anyone else has something that breaks things down even more and shows the tip of Hayward's fingernail on the dust of the basketball after 0.0-- or if you can substantiate string theory-- please weigh in!.

Indoor66
04-12-2010, 03:12 PM
It amazes me how much energy can be spent analysing a non event. The shot missed.

gwlaw99
04-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Rule 5 Section 7. Beginning and End of Period
Art. 1. Each period shall begin when the ball becomes live.
Art. 2. Each period shall end when the red light or LED lights has become
activated. When the light fails to operate or is not visible, each period shall
end with the sounding of the game-clock horn.
a. In games when the red light is not present, the game-clock horn shall
terminate players’ activity.
b. In games with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and where an
official courtside monitor is used, the reading of zeros on the game
clock is to be used to determine whether a try for goal occurred
before or after the expiration of time in any period.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/BR08.pdf

From this video it looks like the red lights go on just before the ball hits the backboard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQOyLSNypy8

This is a great view of "the pick" as well. You can clearly see Howard lift up his arms into Singler.

gwlaw99
04-12-2010, 03:48 PM
If you go through this video frame by frame around 18-19 seconds in. You can see the ball just an inch off his finger tips with .1 left on the clock. Hard to tell if perhaps his middle finger is still touching the ball. I had to go through it several times as I kept missing the right frame.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Jm0M6M2To

gwlaw99
04-12-2010, 03:54 PM
screen shot

dukeblue4ever
04-12-2010, 06:44 PM
The progression is always clock, light, horn.

There's a very minimal delay between each one, so when they review things, they always check the clock. The red light is used in case they didn't get it off. If it's obvious they didn't get it off before the light, there's no use further investigating.

And this isn't the first time Butler would have been involved in clock issues.

Check this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0KjNXdDQs) (fast forward to about 6:40)Might I add that Hayward completely fouled that xavier dude right after the time you mentioned.

Based off of the most recent picture, I believe that Hayward did get the ball off in time. (Even though the pick should've been called)

m g
04-12-2010, 08:55 PM
Had the shot been late, everybody would've had obvious physical evidence in front of their eyes; it would have been impossible to blame that one on "Duke gets all the calls."

one would hope that factual evidence stopped the hate... doesn't really work that way though, haha (see the maggette "scandal", etc)

WordLife565
04-12-2010, 09:00 PM
CBS was showing the arena clock. The official time is the time on the shot clock. Needless to say, that if you watch the game and listen for the horn, its real dicey if he gets the shot off before the horn. If you watch the one replay from the baseline, where you can see the red light on the backboard, it gets even dicier.

How many people think that they would have reviewed it if it had gone in?

(My hand is not up, BTW.)

Its a rule that they have to review ALL buzzer beaters, no matter what, even if it is somewhat obvious that it was made before the buzzer.

Verga3
04-12-2010, 09:15 PM
I was seated directly behind Hayward's shot. My first instinct was that the red light came on JUST before the shot left his hand....really close. A review would have ensued if he made the shot. Can you imagine the officials taking away that potential basket in front of 67,000 Butler fans and the ghost of Jimmy Chitwood? Glad we didn't have to go there. CBS knows the answer.