Classes Basketball Players Take

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

In the "anonymous" notes section of Feinstein apology referenced on the front page there was a note that I want to make sure people in America know isn't true, but I don't know how to do that. Ideas? The contention was that the basketball players get to work towards the "Sociology" major without having to take classes with regular Duke students. For the record, I had some athletes in classes I took at Duke 20 plus years ago. This person believes that since the sociology major is an "athletes" major it makes Duke the dirtiest program in the nation.

Perhaps this belongs as part of the "hatred" tsunami, but there are so many threads in there it becomes unwieldy to read. Where/When did people start getting the idea that Duke had special majors for student-athletes that were not the same as that for a "regular" student? Where did people get the idea, an idea Coach K dispelled at the Final Four, that student-athletes live in athletic dorms at Duke? Was there an article or was this some sort of fictitious fabrication by the anonymous poster on Feinstein's blog?

GO DUKE!

[4decadedukie]

I have a close friend who was a classmate of Nick Horvath; as seniors, they both took Quantum Physics II. Sounds like a real academic cakewalk to me.

[JStuart]

I noticed that, too, and the 'sociology' conspiracy popped up several years back, maybe during the 2001 championship.
Please.
How worse is Duke than any other major university in this regard: does Kentucky, or UNC, require their student-athletes to take 'hard' majors? Of course not. I'd also submit that Duke's Sociology -or Visual Arts- major is a bit tougher than, say, UNC's, or NCSU's.
If this is the most vicious criticism of Duke's BBall program, it's pretty weak sauce, IMHO.
There were some good rebuttals in the comments section, but the most telling was that the complainer listed him/herself as 'anonymous'.
Really?

[sagegrouse]

Hi,

In the "anonymous" notes section of Feinstein apology referenced on the front page there was a note that I want to make sure people in America know isn't true, but I don't know how to do that. Ideas? The contention was that the basketball players get to work towards the "Sociology" major without having to take classes with regular Duke students. For the record, I had some athletes in classes I took at Duke 20 plus years ago. This person believes that since the sociology major is an "athletes" major it makes Duke the dirtiest program in the nation.

Perhaps this belongs as part of the "hatred" tsunami, but there are so many threads in there it becomes unwieldy to read. Where/When did people start getting the idea that Duke had special majors for student-athletes that were not the same as that for a "regular" student? Where did people get the idea, an idea Coach K dispelled at the Final Four, that student-athletes live in athletic dorms at Duke? Was there an article or was this some sort of fictitious fabrication by the anonymous poster on Feinstein's blog?

GO DUKE!

The comments below the Feistein blog are definitely worth reading. They include somewhat literate "foaming at the mouth," such as the ones by Anonymous, and intelligent defense of K and Duke. Especially read the comment that points out that there are no sociology majors on the Duke team, which would seem to be a slight flaw in Anonymous's reasoning. :)

The other points made by Anonymous also suggest why he adopted the posting name he did. Sociology is not a major limited to athletes. And BTW isn't Cultural Anthropology a really tough set of courses? Moreover, one's major occupies only about 25% of the courses an undergraduate takes, unless things have changed since the full decade I spent on college campuses at Duke and at Rice. Moreover, athletes are mainstreamed at Duke, taking courses along with other students.

And why, for heaven sakes, is Duke being singled out for easy majors, when it does not offer Phys Ed, unlike Wake, or Recreation, unlike UNC?

And don't get me started on the Ivy League. No way do Ivy League athletes compete for admission with regular students. And BTW, why is American Studies one of the most popular majors at Yale? Hint: it isn't because of the academic challenge offered.

sagegrouse
'I am happy to see John F. recant about Krzyzewski. It was due, and I am tired of reading anti JF comments on this Board. JF has been a hugely successful sports journalist (in terms of money earned) BECAUSE he is controversial'

[DevilHorns]

How taking the "sociology major" makes Duke the dirtiest program in America is beyond me. We graduate our students, many of the so-called elite programs do not. For me, that is enough. School is a priority and it it is experienced as such. All because they aren't math majors doesn't mean they aren't fully engaged on the educational front.

Nobody at Duke is trying to perpetuate the idea that these kids are becoming Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, etc majors at the same rate as other "students". Not every student has the same strengths. Just as we value the incredible musician who struggles in math and takes statistics to meet requirements, how can that idiot responding in the comments section not understand the overall value concept for student-athletes in the same way? Boggles the mind.

Furthermore, you can look to Kyle and Lance as examples of how schoolwork has impacted their athletic and dare I say "overall" lives this year. One of the short videos from DukeBluePlanet (taken earlier this year) talks to Kyle about why he chose to be a Visual Arts major, etc. Short answer paraphrased is he absolutely enjoys the balance of life art gives him off the court. He feels like it allows him to express himself in a completely new way. And look how it has impacted him and the team this year? He made that celebratory 17-0 t-shirt that everybody wants! Using what he has learned and appreciated off the court has helped him embrace this team, help feed the team a sense of identity. And any artist knows that showing someone your art is one of the most courageous acts an artist can do. Another example is Lance, he made specific graphic design posters for every player on the team. If you cycle through them on DukeBluePlanet you can see how talented he truly is (and doing graphic design TAKES FOREVER. I am sure this personal project took Lance a great deal of time.... again, applying what he has learned in the classroom to his life).

I think I wasted my time writing all this here since obviously none of you guys were thinking our guys were taking the easy route. Its a random hater who will never see the light because he/she doesn't want to. Thats fine. But I as a fan admire these guys even more because instead of school being a time burden, they have embraced it. As an added bonus, I know Chris Duhon completed the Markets and Management certificate to help in gain a feel for how markets work, how to manage a portfolio, etc. Good life skills definitely. I bet Antoine Walker of Kentucky fame wishes he had those courses...

[PumpkinFunk]

Miles Plumlee was an engineer for a year. From what I hear, the reason he switched was that balancing the work with the basketball obligations became too much, but still, he did make it through a year.

Greg Paulus was a political science major, which from my own experiences here is not a cakewalk. Scheyer is a History major, which I again can tell you is no cakewalk based on experiences of friends. These guys may not be in Pratt or be Math, Physics, Chemistry, or Biology majors, but it's not like they are taking majors like Sports Management that there are at other schools.

[peblnh8]

or my personal favorite, "university studies"

[DukeUsul]

We have plenty of scholarship guys who have taken the hard majors. Trajan was a math major. Matt Christensen was an engineer, I believe.

[jimsumner]

"Scheyer is a History major, which I again can tell you is no cakewalk based on experiences of friends."

I can state with absolute certainty that the brighest students at Duke major in history. Been that way since at least the late 1960s. :)

Of all the absurd claims to throw at Duke, the idea that Duke basketball players aren't real students is pretty close to the most absurd. And that's saying something.

Did you notice that in the post-Butler post-game, K mentioned that Duke doesn't have athletic dorms. Somehow the media in Indy went absolutely ga-ga over the idea that Butler doesn't have athletic dorms. Duke has never had athletic dorms but that doesn't show up in fawning articles. Duke does as good a job of integrating athletes into student life--academic and otherwise-- as any major athletic school anywhere.

[AtlDuke72]

Boy am I a sucker - I actually paid four years of tuition for my daughter to go to Duke and be a sociology major. I thought she was going to school, little did I know she was just hanging out with the basketball players. She even suckered UNC into allowing her into graduate school on a full scholarship and topped it off by getting a job running a non-profit.

[DukieInKansas]

Boy am I a sucker - I actually paid four years of tuition for my daughter to go to Duke and be a sociology major. I thought she was going to school, little did I know she was just hanging out with the basketball players. She even suckered UNC into allowing her into graduate school on a full scholarship and topped it off by getting a job running a non-profit.

There is one born every day! ;)

Congratulations to your daughter on all her accomplishments.

[stillcrazie]

I know people who have tutored Scheyer, Kelly, Dawkins -- all great students. Zoubek is said to be the smartest student in one of his history classes. A former prof of mine said Shane Battier was as smart as any Duke undergrad, actually smarter than most. This makes me very proud of our program.

[turnandburn55]

We go through this every few years. Young 20-somethings who are about to see a windfall of millions of dollars are well-advised to get their learnings on about business and investment (wild thought, huh?). Duke, however, unlike many other schools, does not have an undergraduate degree in business. The Markets and Management path in the Sociology department is the closest equivalent to a business degree, which is why athletes have historically clustered there.

I seem to remember during ESPN's hatchet job on Duke in 2002 (which perpetuated the same myth of Sociology as being a jocks major), both the Director of Admissions and the Chair of the Sociology department were interviewed, and both explained this fact. Not one minute of either interview was actually shown, nor was that fact ever referenced.

[JWA71]

And why, for heaven sakes, is Duke being singled out for easy majors, when it does not offer Phys Ed, unlike Wake, or Recreation, unlike UNC?

During an OSU game, IIRC, they displayed Evan's Turner's major. It's Pre Family Resource Management. Is this major Home Ec for single jocks?

Jim

[CLT Devil]

I had a Cultural Anthropology class with Nate Dawg and Jay Williams...they were there, on time, every day, sat in front rows.

My frat also had a big party one night and Tricky Nicky Horvath showed up and ended up in my room checking out my roomie's books, or novels I should say, and asking for recommendations. Anyway, we loaned him one and made him an honorary member of the frat!

OTOH, and this is just to be fair, I was in a History of Warfare class that Casey Sanders was enrolled in. The teacher called role everyday and when he said "Casey Sanders" everyone laughed each time because there was always a long pause like the professor was expecting him to be there...I think the professor didn't know who Casey was and kept wondering why everyone laughed every time. Pretty funny. Furthermoe, it is embarrasing when one's phone goes off in class, but Casey actually answered it and walked to the back of the classroom to have a conversation...I would pay good money to see the look on that professor's face again. It was a large room in East Duke (I think that's what it was called) but there was no hiding. Granted this was right around graduation, kind of when on exam day the class size doubles.

I only post this because you have athletes who go to class and study. I even had a football star (he only Football star during my four years there, one who led the ACC in all purpose yards) he organized study groups and I must say was one of the brighter people in our little group, and very proactive on his own about getting people to share ideas and study together.

Point being, it all has to do with the individual. You can do the bare minimum and coast through college just like a regular student or you can take it serious and actually learn something. The main difference is 'coasting' at Duke is much much harder than your average State school. Cultural Anthropology was not as easy as people make it out to be...the only class at Duke that was easy was the History of Jazz with Paul Jeffries...everything else took serious work to get anything above a C.

[hurleyfor3]

Miles Plumlee was an engineer for a year. From what I hear, the reason he switched was that balancing the work with the basketball obligations became too much, but still, he did make it through a year.


Most engineering classes at Duke beyond the intro level are going to have lab sessions. These typically go once a week in the afternoon for 2-3 hours. An uperclassman will take two or three such classes each semester. This is also the case for advanced science courses (Orgo, etc).

Problem is, mid-afternoon is when K usually holds practice. If a player really wanted to study something with lab requirements I'm sure K would find a workaround, but you can't really skip labs like you can with a lot of lecture classes. (I skipped one lab, ever, on the Tuesday after we won the 1992 championship. Still got a B+ in the course, or maybe it was an A-.) Point is, the commitment is not just extra work but an extra chunk of the day that can't be moved.

I think Trajan tried engineering for a couple years but switched to math for this reason.

[JStuart]

"Scheyer is a History major, which I again can tell you is no cakewalk based on experiences of friends."

I can state with absolute certainty that the brighest students at Duke major in history. Been that way since at least the late 1960s. :)

Of all the absurd claims to throw at Duke, the idea that Duke basketball players aren't real students is pretty close to the most absurd. And that's saying something.

Did you notice that in the post-Butler post-game, K mentioned that Duke doesn't have athletic dorms. Somehow the media in Indy went absolutely ga-ga over the idea that Butler doesn't have athletic dorms. Duke has never had athletic dorms but that doesn't show up in fawning articles. Duke does as good a job of integrating athletes into student life--academic and otherwise-- as any major athletic school anywhere.

Jim, you probably remember this as well: when I was watching games as a kid during the Bubas era, both teams were announced, giving their majors. One game I remember, the Duke players were listed, history, economics, pre-med, etc., only to have all 5 of the NC State players listed as being majors in "rural recreation", whatever that was.
Art Chandler told me years later that it was all he could do to keep a straight face when announcing those majors, and it wasn't long after that season that majors were no longer mentioned....

Incidentally, I'm just pleased beyond words that Art retired with a NCAA Championship team!

JStuart

[TheRob8801]

During an OSU game, IIRC, they displayed Evan's Turner's major. It's Pre Family Resource Management. Is this major Home Ec for single jocks?

Jim

More like:How to market ones-self. (http://www-afa.adm.ohio-state.edu/u-majors/pdf/famresmg.pdf)

Definitely not biology...but not a slouch major, either.

[DukeUsul]

Most engineering classes at Duke beyond the intro level are going to have lab sessions. These typically go once a week in the afternoon for 2-3 hours. An uperclassman will take two or three such classes each semester. This is also the case for advanced science courses (Orgo, etc).

Problem is, mid-afternoon is when K usually holds practice. If a player really wanted to study something with lab requirements I'm sure K would find a workaround, but you can't really skip labs like you can with a lot of lecture classes. (I skipped one lab, ever, on the Tuesday after we won the 1992 championship. Still got a B+ in the course, or maybe it was an A-.) Point is, the commitment is not just extra work but an extra chunk of the day that can't be moved.

I think Trajan tried engineering for a couple years but switched to math for this reason.

There have been a few engineers over the years. Todd Singleton and Matt Christensen come to mind. You can check out some majors for previous players here (they seem not to be listed for some of the guys who left early).

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/all.php

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I wanted to write something where everyone who read it would be like, "Duke student-athletes are definitively integrated into the student population, academically and otherwise." However, I doubt there is anything I could write that would make someone who does not want to believe the truth, believe. :(

There are so many ways to attack Duke hoops that have nothing to do with attacking the integrity of the University. We all want Duke to win at sport, but (I think) we also want more than that, that the University educate everyone who is a student. It hurts me to think we would win any championship or even field a team without that core value in mind. Perhaps Mr./Ms. Anonymous understood that such an allegation would get under many Dukies skin and I took the bait? I know there is a book called something like "Why do we hate so much?" about the Duke-UNC rivalry. I should probably write one about Duke titled, "Why do we love so much?"

GO DUKE!

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

I'm confused: Duke is ranked among the top 10 universities in the country and among the top 15 universities in the world. Last year, Duke had the most student-athletes placed on the ACC Honor Roll, which requires a 3.0 GPA. Why are people upset that Duke's basketball players not only win, but also has outstanding grades at one of the top universities in the world?!

Better question to ask: Why aren't people questioning the "student"-athletes at the other schools?! The only other school in the ACC that's ranked among the top 25 universities in the country and top 100 in the world is UVa. It's speaks volumes about the "student"-athletes at these other schools, who can't even earn a 3.0 at a school that's not ranked...

[BD80]

... all 5 of the NC State players listed as being majors in "rural recreation", whatever that was. ...

Isn't that commonly known as "cow-tipping?"

[mehmattski]

As a tutor for the Athletics department, I can tell you all that dozens of athletes in the past three years (since I've been a graduate student) are pre-medicine or otherwise associated with the Biology major. This includes basically all of Duke's major and Olympic sports teams, with the notable exception of men's basketball.

As someone who was also a Duke biology major as an undergraduate, I can tell you that it definitely serves a challenge. So while the men's basketball team certainly toils away at other majors, my personal experience has been that many Duke scholarship athletes are taking (and thriving in!) tough classes. I must also add that they all seem to be great young adults, as well.

[Carlos]

At the ACC Tournament this year they listed the majors for each of the players whenever they were shooting FT's, scored, or were introduced. Among my favorites was the Apparel, Housing, & Resource Management for Va Tech.

[Devilsfan]

Stayed at the same hotel as Feinstein, other obsrure writers and the entire CBS media. Feinstein was at best intraverted, at worst arrogant. I think he is jealous of K's success as a coach and now also a writer. I really think he is bitter he wasn't allowed to write an inside book by shadowwing Coach K. He really is not a very good ambassador of Duke University, imo.
By the way, Duke Basketball players unlike many high profile schools are quite intelligent.

[Duvall]

Stayed at the same hotel as Feinstein, other obsrure writers and the entire CBS media. Feinstein was at best intraverted, at worst arrogant. I think he is jealous of K's success as a coach and now also a writer. I really think he is bitter he wasn't allowed to write an inside book by shadowwing Coach K.

Hasn't he already written two?

John Feinstein is a man with many flaws. Resenting Mike Krzyzewski is, as far as I can tell, not one of them.

[Kdogg]

As a tutor for the Athletics department, I can tell you all that dozens of athletes in the past three years (since I've been a graduate student) are pre-medicine or otherwise associated with the Biology major. This includes basically all of Duke's major and Olympic sports teams, with the notable exception of men's basketball.

As someone who was also a Duke biology major as an undergraduate, I can tell you that it definitely serves a challenge. So while the men's basketball team certainly toils away at other majors, my personal experience has been that many Duke scholarship athletes are taking (and thriving in!) tough classes. I must also add that they all seem to be great young adults, as well.

Taymon Domzalski was a history major and ended up an MD.

[Jason W]

Frankly, this is why I am proud to be a Duke fan. I think it clicked with me after I saw Ed Cota interviewed and he talked about using his penetrating moves on the ho's in the defense (I swear that isn't a joke.) Our least articulate players communicate far better than some schools best.

[CrazieDUMB]

Who do you think is the best example of basketball star and intelligent, well rounded person? My top 3 would have to be Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Jay Williams. Any other notables?

[SoCalDukeFan]

I went to Duke in the 60's so am pretty far removed from what is going on now.

We did have a language requirement. I remember my roommate tutoring Bob Verga in Latin.

I have a friend whose daughter was a recent scholarship athlete at Duke. She majored in Sociology which her mother referred to as the "jock major." Can't say if that is true or not. However I would say that "anonymous" knows very little about he writes. I am sure that there are non-athletes majoring in Soc and, as many have written, basketball players with other majors.

To call Duke the dirtiest program in college basketball and your only charge is that players major in Soc is just totally stupid.

I was glad to see all of the posts that were critical of anonymous.

SoCal

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Who do you think is the best example of basketball star and intelligent, well rounded person? My top 3 would have to be Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Jay Williams. Any other notables?

Jeff Mullins

[sagegrouse]

Who do you think is the best example of basketball star and intelligent, well rounded person? My top 3 would have to be Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Jay Williams. Any other notables?

Not surprisingly, there is a lot of competition....

Gminski and Bilas seem to have accomplished a lot on and off the court, although the G-man had the better basketball career. Trajan, once his career in Europe ends, will likely have some other accomplishments of note. Wasn't he a math major?

Others with serious professional careers are Spanarkel, Jay Buckley (PhD physics plus 2nd team All-ACC), Jack Marin (NBA All-Star and Duke Law). Heck, good old Kenny Dennard is apparently doing really well with his own financial public relations firm. And these days, he is certainly "well-rounded." ;)

The late Denny Ferguson (team captain in 1965) was a professor at Cornell.

sagegrouse
'BTW I must add that when I enter "Class of Mullins" after my name, I am telling the literal truth. Others who claim Class of G. Hill, Class of Cherokee, etc. are indulging in unsupported hype. Jeff Mullins was, in fact, the President of the Class of 1964'

[sweetchiba51]

The comments below the Feistein blog are definitely worth reading. They include somewhat literate "foaming at the mouth," such as the ones by Anonymous, and intelligent defense of K and Duke. Especially read the comment that points out that there are no sociology majors on the Duke team, which would seem to be a slight flaw in Anonymous's reasoning. :)

The other points made by Anonymous also suggest why he adopted the posting name he did. Sociology is not a major limited to athletes. And BTW isn't Cultural Anthropology a really tough set of courses? Moreover, one's major occupies only about 25% of the courses an undergraduate takes, unless things have changed since the full decade I spent on college campuses at Duke and at Rice. Moreover, athletes are mainstreamed at Duke, taking courses along with other students.

And why, for heaven sakes, is Duke being singled out for easy majors, when it does not offer Phys Ed, unlike Wake, or Recreation, unlike UNC?

And don't get me started on the Ivy League. No way do Ivy League athletes compete for admission with regular students. And BTW, why is American Studies one of the most popular majors at Yale? Hint: it isn't because of the academic challenge offered.

sagegrouse
'I am happy to see John F. recant about Krzyzewski. It was due, and I am tired of reading anti JF comments on this Board. JF has been a hugely successful sports journalist (in terms of money earned) BECAUSE he is controversial'

Sorry but I am a Phys Ed major at Eastern Washington University and it is not easy....

[4decadedukie]

The subject of academic rigor and "athletic majors" frequently appears. Living in the DC area, I am the direct and indirect recipient of many outrageously pro-Maryland comments, especially during basketball season. In January or February 2009, during the worst of the Vasquez and Williams turbulence, the local media suggested that Maryland was: (a) the most selective university in the ACC as well as (b) the most academically challenging. They highlighted a few majors at Maryland including FIREFIGHTING. I was astonished; that's great for a training school, but inappropriate for a university. A MIND IS A TERRAPIN THING TO WASTE.

[hurleyfor3]

They highlighted a few majors at Maryland including FIREFIGHTING. I was astonished; that's great for a training school, but inappropriate for a university. A MIND IS A TERRAPIN THING TO WASTE.

Who needs classes to learn firefighting? If I'm a Maryland basketball player, and something in my vicinity is on fire, I'd just have Gary Williams sweat on it. Fire extinguished.

[4decadedukie]

Who needs classes to learn firefighting? If I'm a Maryland basketball player, and something in my vicinity is on fire, I'd just have Gary Williams sweat on it. Fire extinguished.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

LOL, nicely done!

[dcdevil2009]

Jay Bilas made an interesting point about the difference between Duke and state schools from an academic standpoint. I think it was on a Bill Simmons podcast a few weeks ago, but I'm not positive. Basically his point was that GPA and graduation rates aren't a problem at Duke like they are at state schools, but there is much more grade inflation for both students and student-athletes at Duke.

At a big state school, such as Maryland or Ohio State, it takes more than just showing up every day to . However, basing this on my own experience at Duke (history major, class of 09), if you show up at every day and turn in assignments, it's really easy to get Bs, but you have to work incredibly hard to move from a b/b+ to an A. If you look at the class rank curves you'll see a median around a 3.0 with a really small standard deviation. Of my trinity class of about 1300, a 2.7 (b-) was ranked at about 900/1300, while a 3.5 (b+/a-) was ranked 200/1500.

That being said, you get out what you put in. If you're Jay Williams or Patrick Paterson, you can take a full course load every year and two summer sessions to finish your degree in three years before going to the league. Likewise, if you're John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, or even Corey Magette and you're gone after your first year, is there any reason to sit through a semester of caribbean history or african dance for another semester when you're not planning on graduating anyway?

[LSanders]

They highlighted a few majors at Maryland including FIREFIGHTING. I was astonished; that's great for a training school, but inappropriate for a university. A MIND IS A TERRAPIN THING TO WASTE.

The irony of a firefighting major in the same discussion as Maryland basketball ... Well, you get the point ... :p

[Deslok]

The irony of a firefighting major in the same discussion as Maryland basketball ... Well, you get the point ... :p

I don't think its ironic at all... the university is supporting one of the major needs for the state of Maryland, in order for there to be any building left in Maryland after basketball season they need all the firefighting help they can get!

[hughgs]

Problem is, mid-afternoon is when K usually holds practice. If a player really wanted to study something with lab requirements I'm sure K would find a workaround, but you can't really skip labs like you can with a lot of lecture classes. (I skipped one lab, ever, on the Tuesday after we won the 1992 championship. Still got a B+ in the course, or maybe it was an A-.) Point is, the commitment is not just extra work but an extra chunk of the day that can't be moved.

One semester K moved the practice time to late afternoon to accommodate one of his engineering students (don't remember which one). His practices then cut into both the fencing team's practice and club volleyball. I'm not sure I would call that a work-around.

[4decadedukie]

Not surprisingly, there is a lot of competition....

Gminski and Bilas seem to have accomplished a lot on and off the court, although the G-man had the better basketball career. Trajan, once his career in Europe ends, will likely have some other accomplishments of note. Wasn't he a math major?

Others with serious professional careers are Spanarkel, Jay Buckley (PhD physics plus 2nd team All-ACC), Jack Marin (NBA All-Star and Duke Law). Heck, good old Kenny Dennard is apparently doing really well with his own financial public relations firm. And these days, he is certainly "well-rounded." ;)

The late Denny Ferguson (team captain in 1965) was a professor at Cornell.

sagegrouse
'BTW I must add that when I enter "Class of Mullins" after my name, I am telling the literal truth. Others who claim Class of G. Hill, Class of Cherokee, etc. are indulging in unsupported hype. Jeff Mullins was, in fact, the President of the Class of 1964'


In addition to all the excellent nominations of Duke Basketball players with excellent academics and major off-court accomplishments already provided, I suggest Gary Melchionni. After Trinity College, he played in the NBA, returned to Duke Law, currently practices in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, with Stevens and Lee, and has been a very influential Duke volunteer leader (for example, the President of the Duke Alumni Association). Two of his children are also Duke alumni.

[Mudge]

The comments below the Feistein blog are definitely worth reading. They include somewhat literate "foaming at the mouth," such as the ones by Anonymous, and intelligent defense of K and Duke. Especially read the comment that points out that there are no sociology majors on the Duke team, which would seem to be a slight flaw in Anonymous's reasoning. :)

The other points made by Anonymous also suggest why he adopted the posting name he did. Sociology is not a major limited to athletes. And BTW isn't Cultural Anthropology a really tough set of courses? Moreover, one's major occupies only about 25% of the courses an undergraduate takes, unless things have changed since the full decade I spent on college campuses at Duke and at Rice. Moreover, athletes are mainstreamed at Duke, taking courses along with other students.

And why, for heaven sakes, is Duke being singled out for easy majors, when it does not offer Phys Ed, unlike Wake, or Recreation, unlike UNC?

And don't get me started on the Ivy League. No way do Ivy League athletes compete for admission with regular students. And BTW, why is American Studies one of the most popular majors at Yale? Hint: it isn't because of the academic challenge offered.

sagegrouse
'I am happy to see John F. recant about Krzyzewski. It was due, and I am tired of reading anti JF comments on this Board. JF has been a hugely successful sports journalist (in terms of money earned) BECAUSE he is controversial'

... and I am tired of even ever hearing from John F., because he is a whiny, trite complainer without an original thought in his brain-- a stock NYC character from central casting, based on his NPR commentaries (I refuse to read any of his books, because I am so underwhelmed by his NPR stuff-- and I actually went to school with the bum)... all the guy has ever come up with is "Tiger Woods (Serena Williams, Roger Federer, etc.) is the favorite in this tournament" -- thanks John F, you overpaid, under-inspired hack. His admission of his wrongness about Coach K (no surprise there-- when has John F ever been correct about anything he had to say outside the obvious mainstream opinion that he usually serves up 99% of the time) is the only reason I enriched the guy's pockets by going to his own self-serving website to read his mea culpa... about time he admitted what a non-visionary he is.

[keystonedukie]

The story about Duke athletes being sheltered from the rigors of an everyday Duke education in the Sociology major comes from an ESPN article, either in the ESPN Magazine or their online site, from 5 or 6 years ago. Somewhere around 2004, maybe? If I remember correctly, the gist of it was that the major was stacked with athletes; i.e., that something like 80 or 90 percent of all Soc majors at that time were athletes, and conversely that only 2 or 3 percent of all DU students at that time were majoring in Sociology. IIRC, the way they laid it out was that the largest percentage of athletes were football players but that track, soccer, lacrosse--just about every sport--was represented including a few basketball players. Men and women. The actual representation of men's basketball players among the 300 (?) or so Soc majors was always necessarily small, given the dozen or so players on the roster at any one time.

The story did not attract broad national attention. No mention of the story was made by the network college basketball sportscasters on ESPN or elsewhere. It did, however, surface a few years later in a USA Today feature on schools diverting athletes into easy programs.

We all know that everyone does it. From Harvard (a resurgent hoops program, now, under Blue Devil Tommy Amaker) to Howard. From Stanford to Samford. It's just part of college athletics, and has been for more than 100 years.

Some recruits are great students. Some are not. There seems to be plenty of evidence that no top-tier NCAA football or basketball program has collective SAT/ACT scores for incoming freshmen reaching even the median of non-athletes. But, really, who cares? Certainly not the NCAA.

Though I do not remember any kind of response from Duke officials regarding the Sociology story, it is quite possible that there was a very quiet internal response and that if there was indeed a "problem" that it was addressed. And most likely Coach K and Coach Cutcliffe are now under strict orders to recruit only student-athletes who can hold their own in any Duke classroom.

Or, at least, that's what we'll tell ourselves!

[jimsumner]

"And most likely Coach K and Coach Cutcliffe are now under strict orders to recruit only student-athletes who can hold their own in any Duke classroom."

As opposed to when?

Have you noticed all those awards Duke football has won over the last several decades for leading the NCAA in graduation percentages? Do you think Duke was doing that with students who couldn't hold their own in any Duke classroom?

And the overall graduation rate for athletes. Track, soccer, lacrosse.

Pretty impressive.

At least that's what I tell myself.

[keystonedukie]

"And most likely Coach K and Coach Cutcliffe are now under strict orders to recruit only student-athletes who can hold their own in any Duke classroom."

As opposed to when?

Have you noticed all those awards Duke football has won over the last several decades for leading the NCAA in graduation percentages? Do you think Duke was doing that with students who couldn't hold their own in any Duke classroom?

And the overall graduation rate for athletes. Track, soccer, lacrosse.

Pretty impressive.

At least that's what I tell myself.

Jim, that's not what I said (I said "IF there was a problem"), and I certainly apologize if (there's that word, again) it was interpreted to mean that there ever was a problem. A friend had pointed this thread out to me and knew that we had discussed this article years ago, so I jumped in to clarify the tale to the best of my foggy recollection.

At the same time, I teach for a living, at a major university, and have never believed that focusing on graduation rates--whether as a measure of a university's educational value or an athletic program's dedication to academics--was legitimate. Faculty have been under subtle-but-real (never direct, and never spoken) pressure to inflate grades for ALL students ever since higher education came to be viewed as a personal benefit rather than a social benefit--a product to be purchased rather than a growth experience--and students came to be viewed as "customers." Easy grades--the automatic B--makes everybody happy, especially when each "customer" represents $50,000 a year in revenue. Easy grades lead to high graduation rates.

It was not that way at Duke when I was there, but that was 40+ years ago and tuition was around $5,000 a year. We live in a different age.

And at the risk of raining on anyone's parade, whether it is at Duke or any other institution, high graduation rates simply do not reflect academic rigor, merely whether a school has figured out how to play the game.

Keystonedukie '70