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tecumseh
04-06-2010, 10:06 PM
Starting lineups of the past 10 NCAA Champions, with class of each guy in that season, and how many years that guy ended up playing in college:

2000 (Michigan State)
Morris Peterson (Senior, 4-year player)
AJ Granger (Senior, 4-year player)
Charlie Bell (Junior, 4-year player)
Jason Richardson (Freshman, 2-year player)
Mateen Cleaves (Senior, 4-year player)

2001 (Duke)
Chris Duhon (Freshman, 4-year player)
Jay Williams (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Mike Dunleavy (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Shane Battier (Senior, 4-year player)
Carlos Boozer (Sophomore, 3-year player)

2002 (Maryland)
Steve Blake (Junior, 4-year player)
Juan Dixon (Senior, 4-year player)
Byron Mouton (Senior, 4-year player)
Chris Wilcox (Sophomore, 2-year player)
Lonny Baxter (Senior, 4-year player)

2003 (Syracuse)
Kueth Duany (Senior, 4-year player)
Hakim Warrick (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Carmelo Anthony (Freshman, 1-year player)
Craig Forth (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Gerry McNamara (Freshman, 4-year player)

2004 (UCONN)
Ben Gordon (Junior, 3-year player)
Emeka Okafor (Junior, 3-year player)
Rashad Anderson (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Josh Boone (Freshman, 3-year player)
Taliek Brown (Senior, 4-year player)

2005 (North Carolina)
Sean May (Junior, 3-year player)
Jawaad Williams (Senior, 4-year player)
Raymond Felton (Junior, 3-year player)
Rashad McCants (Junior, 3-year player)
Jackie Manual (Senior, 4-year player)

2006 and 2007 (Florida)
Corey Brewer (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Taurean Green (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Lee Humphrey (Junior/Senior, 4-year player)
Joakim Noah (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Al Horford (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)

2008 (Kansas)
Russell Robinson (Senior, 4-year player)
Mario Chalmers (Junior, 3-year player)
Brandon Rush (Junior, 3-year player)
Darrell Arthur (Sophomore, 2-year player)
Darnell Jackson (Senior, 4-year player)

2009 (North Carolina)
Wayne Ellington (Junior, 3-year player)
Tyler Hanbrough (Senior, 4-year player)
Ty Lawson (Junior, 3-year player)
Danny Green (Senior, 4-year player)
Deon Thompson (Junior, 4-year player)

Now, I don’t mean to start anything, but do you notice what is missing from all the starting lineups of the NCAA champions of the past 10 years? One and done players. There has been all of ONE: Carmelo Anthony.

How many of these 10 NCAA champs did not have at least one senior in the starting lineup: ONE. 2006 Florida. And all of those guys came back for another season.

How many 2-and done players out of these 45 guys were on the national champion starting lineups? THREE.

Stole this from UK website and pretty interesting and this fan argues that the Calipari way is questionable. Everyone talked about how this Final Four was a sea change and showed how experience was important but actually if you look at the record I think it is clear one and done players do not help you win a national championship with rare exceptions.

Kdogg
04-06-2010, 10:16 PM
Not starters but UNC lost both Marvin Williams and Brendan Wright.

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Starting lineups of the past 10 NCAA Champions, with class of each guy in that season, and how many years that guy ended up playing in college:

2000 (Michigan State)
Morris Peterson (Senior, 4-year player)
AJ Granger (Senior, 4-year player)
Charlie Bell (Junior, 4-year player)
Jason Richardson (Freshman, 2-year player)
Mateen Cleaves (Senior, 4-year player)

2001 (Duke)
Chris Duhon (Freshman, 4-year player)
Jay Williams (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Mike Dunleavy (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Shane Battier (Senior, 4-year player)
Carlos Boozer (Sophomore, 3-year player)

2002 (Maryland)
Steve Blake (Junior, 4-year player)
Juan Dixon (Senior, 4-year player)
Byron Mouton (Senior, 4-year player)
Chris Wilcox (Sophomore, 2-year player)
Lonny Baxter (Senior, 4-year player)

2003 (Syracuse)
Kueth Duany (Senior, 4-year player)
Hakim Warrick (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Carmelo Anthony (Freshman, 1-year player)
Craig Forth (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Gerry McNamara (Freshman, 4-year player)

2004 (UCONN)
Ben Gordon (Junior, 3-year player)
Emeka Okafor (Junior, 3-year player)
Rashad Anderson (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Josh Boone (Freshman, 3-year player)
Taliek Brown (Senior, 4-year player)

2005 (North Carolina)
Sean May (Junior, 3-year player)
Jawaad Williams (Senior, 4-year player)
Raymond Felton (Junior, 3-year player)
Rashad McCants (Junior, 3-year player)
Jackie Manual (Senior, 4-year player)

2006 and 2007 (Florida)
Corey Brewer (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Taurean Green (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Lee Humphrey (Junior/Senior, 4-year player)
Joakim Noah (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)
Al Horford (Soph/Junior, 3-year player)

2008 (Kansas)
Russell Robinson (Senior, 4-year player)
Mario Chalmers (Junior, 3-year player)
Brandon Rush (Junior, 3-year player)
Darrell Arthur (Sophomore, 2-year player)
Darnell Jackson (Senior, 4-year player)

2009 (North Carolina)
Wayne Ellington (Junior, 3-year player)
Tyler Hanbrough (Senior, 4-year player)
Ty Lawson (Junior, 3-year player)
Danny Green (Senior, 4-year player)
Deon Thompson (Junior, 4-year player)

Now, I don’t mean to start anything, but do you notice what is missing from all the starting lineups of the NCAA champions of the past 10 years? One and done players. There has been all of ONE: Carmelo Anthony.

How many of these 10 NCAA champs did not have at least one senior in the starting lineup: ONE. 2006 Florida. And all of those guys came back for another season.

How many 2-and done players out of these 45 guys were on the national champion starting lineups? THREE.

Stole this from UK website and pretty interesting and this fan argues that the Calipari way is questionable. Everyone talked about how this Final Four was a sea change and showed how experience was important but actually if you look at the record I think it is clear one and done players do not help you win a national championship with rare exceptions.

Three former coaches were interviewed after the game last night. Each pointed out that championship teams didn't have "one and done" players. The three were Digger Phelps, Bobby Knight and Dick Vitale.

dukeblue225
04-06-2010, 10:21 PM
This is an interesting point of which I was not aware. The one and done effect can be seen beyond the championship game, in conference championships and teams on the top of the polls during the season.

NashvilleDevil
04-06-2010, 10:25 PM
Not starters but UNC lost both Marvin Williams and Brendan Wright.

Williams was the 6th man on the '05 title team and Wright was a starter on the '07 Hole team that bricked the game away against Georgetown in the Elite 8.

DevilHorns
04-06-2010, 10:30 PM
2003 (Syracuse)
Kueth Duany (Senior, 4-year player)
Hakim Warrick (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Carmelo Anthony (Freshman, 1-year player)
Craig Forth (Sophomore, 4-year player)
Gerry McNamara (Freshman, 4-year player)


Carmelo. You pointed him out. That guy absolutely beasted the tournament.

I think the "one-and-done" team concept can't work, but I think it could be effective if you have a mix of veterans and 2-3 "one-and-done" players. This year's UK team had Wall, Cousins, and Bledsoe, with the veteran in Patrick Patterson. If they also had a veteran in Meeks (if he decided to stay), I think there is an argument for them being incredible with the right mix of young/old. I knew this whole year (though they were media darlings) that they were an overrated team and that they would choke. They had no veteran leadership, they took all the games to the wire and constantly played to the level of their opponent. Sure they could beat anyone on a given night, but that can be said of a lot of teams, including us. Experience matters in so many ways. Talent can't necessarily see the value of subtle adjustments, freethrows, etc.

Talent doesn't win championships alone. That is the experiment of the 2010 UK basketball team. Has there ever been a team with 4 projected top 15 NBA picks not make the final four?

And second of all, how can any fan truly enjoy a championship driven almost solely by one-and-done players? They have absolutely no chance to grow and appreciate the team. Its a rented special. A timeshare. UK basketball is sad in so many ways. Winning at any cost is not worth it. (Also saw a thread titled "Why do Memphis fans hate our beloved coach Cal?" on Wildcat Nation and no one on it points out that he pretty much gutted the program, jumped ship before the investigation got hot, and stole Memphis' insane recruits... its all just basic jealousy for the most part).

Big Pappa
04-06-2010, 10:50 PM
Carmelo. You pointed him out. That guy absolutely beasted the tournament.

I really think that was a huge exception and not the rule. Melo was a very unique guy because he did not have the "one and done" mentality. First, he chose to attend college in a time when that wasn't required. Second he was quoted saying that he planned to stay 2-3 years but because of his (and Cuse's) immense success he decided to come out early. He also is, and always has been, a great and selfless (for his talent level) teammate.

hurley1
04-07-2010, 11:54 AM
these one and done guys do well during the regular season and they sell alot of tickets, which is why people use them........the problem comes along when the team starts playing money ball.......during the championship tournaments when the pressure is ratcheted up......these one and done guys simply come apart at the seams and they are unable to execute their game......this is why the teams with veterans win the big games because they do not fold under pressure......look at butler and duke.......neither was even fazed by the pressure.....but, look at the teams they beat to get into the championship games......many folded under the pressure.......

Zeb
04-07-2010, 01:02 PM
[Carmelo] also is, and always has been, a great and selfless (for his talent level) teammate.

As a Nuggets fan, I have to question this one a bit. I like Carmelo, and his talent is undeniable, but I'm not sure he passes the "great and selfless teammate" test. He's supposedly not a very hard worker in practice (no firsthand knowledge of this), he does not consistently play tough defense (contrast his NBA perfromances with the Olympics where he showed what a great two-way player he could be), his rebounding numbers are below average for a guy of his size and athleticism, and he often finds ways to get suspended for stupid behavior (fighting, DUI, refusing to leave game). Those are not the attributes of a GREAT teammate.

I like Carmelo, but probably the weakest part of his game is between his ears. Imagine Scheyer's brain in Anthony's body--that would be an unbelievable basketball player.

Matches
04-07-2010, 01:13 PM
A few thoughts - I agree of course that experience is important, but I'd caution against drawing too many conclusions based on results so far. One-and-done players were relatively rare until 2005-2006 - many prospects were skipping college altogether until the NBA set the age limit - so their absence from pre-2005 champions isn't all that significant, statistically speaking.

And taking the stats a bit further - Marvin Williams wasn't a starter on 2005 UNC but clearly he was a key player. Luol Deng, Greg Oden, Derrick Rose - all one-n-doners who led their teams into the FF or Finals. No, none of their teams broke through and won it all but all were tantalizingly close. Let's not forget the role that luck plays - any of those guys could've won a title with a few more lucky bounces.

While I'm no fan of Kentucky or Cal by any means, they played one bad game. It's easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and decry their formula but it looked pretty darn good right up until the WVa game. Any team can lay an egg, including experienced teams (2006 Duke). It's a little dangerous to draw too many conclusions from statistics that reflect a small sample size, particularly when talking about something like the NCAA Tournament where luck plays a significant role.

whereinthehellami
04-07-2010, 01:21 PM
Good interesting stuff tecumseh.

Underdog5
04-07-2010, 01:47 PM
At least to me it seems quite obvious that more experience generally helps in sports. Not sure this is a case against recruiting potential one and done talent (insert my usual reminder that we offered Wall). While he has no chips under his belt, if Calipari's performance is considered sub-par, then there are a ton of sub-par coaches out there. I don't care for the guy much for other reasons (was at Umass when he coached there and played pick-up with some of his guys... could tell some interesting anecdotes). But to imply that his success at Umass, Memphis and Kentucky is lacking seems a bit over the top. I actually felt him getting them as far as he did was a pretty good accomplishment.

Edouble
04-07-2010, 01:56 PM
2000 (Michigan State)
Morris Peterson (Senior, 4-year player)
AJ Granger (Senior, 4-year player)
Charlie Bell (Junior, 4-year player)
Jason Richardson (Freshman, 2-year player)
Mateen Cleaves (Senior, 4-year player)



10 years later, I think there's a better chance that a player like Jason Richardson might be gone after one year. He certainly would have been drafted. Just food for thought. I agree with other's sentiments that a whole team of one and doners probably wouldn't work as well as inserting one superstar frosh into team of veterans (as above).

JohnGalt
04-07-2010, 02:18 PM
Now, I don’t mean to start anything, but do you notice what is missing from all the starting lineups of the NCAA champions of the past 10 years? One and done players. There has been all of ONE: Carmelo Anthony.

How many of these 10 NCAA champs did not have at least one senior in the starting lineup: ONE. 2006 Florida. And all of those guys came back for another season.

How many 2-and done players out of these 45 guys were on the national champion starting lineups? THREE.

Stole this from UK website and pretty interesting and this fan argues that the Calipari way is questionable. Everyone talked about how this Final Four was a sea change and showed how experience was important but actually if you look at the record I think it is clear one and done players do not help you win a national championship with rare exceptions.

I would suspect that a lot of it has to do with the Rule not being in place until a few years ago. Check back in 10 more years and I bet there will be several more. Most of the "One and Doners" went straight to the NBA.

shoutingncu
04-07-2010, 04:10 PM
I found this article on freshmen (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12223433?tag=pageRow;pageContainer) amusing to re-visit on several levels, and while I'm glad Parrish was wrong, I'd have preferred it to have been in the direction of Michigan State. ;)

4decadedukie
04-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Starting lineups of the past 10 NCAA Champions, with class of each guy in that season, and how many years that guy ended up playing in college:

2001 (Duke)
Chris Duhon (Freshman, 4-year player)
Jay Williams (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Mike Dunleavy (Sophomore, 3-year player)
Shane Battier (Senior, 4-year player)
Carlos Boozer (Sophomore, 3-year player)



This analysis misses two key points re Duke’s Championship 2001 team: (1) I am quite certain, every player listed except Carlo earned his Duke degree (Mike Dunleavy in 2005, according to the Alumni Association database) and (2) Jay Williams graduated in three-years, before entering the NBA. The impression is the “3-year players” did not graduate, whereas two of three did.

RoyalBlue08
04-08-2010, 10:36 AM
I will be the first to admit that going into the tournament my brain had Kentucky winning the whole thing (where my heart was is obvious). And this is despite the all evidence to the contrary that experienced teams tend to cut down the nets year after year. I will try and remember this next season!

MChambers
04-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I found this article on freshmen (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12223433?tag=pageRow;pageContainer) amusing to re-visit on several levels, and while I'm glad Parrish was wrong, I'd have preferred it to have been in the direction of Michigan State. ;)

He wrote that he would revisit the article or subject in April. I'm looking forward to that.