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flyingdutchdevil
04-04-2010, 12:13 AM
After the 2008 game, I've never liked WVU, or Huggins for that matter. But after Butler's injury, I couldn't help but have all respect for Huggins. He is a really good, if not great, coach that really cares about his players. Check out this blog about about Duke's win and Huggins from Andy Katz and Eamonn Brennan:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/040310-mountaineers-bluedevils

NOTE: Please don't make this thread about the 'sleaze-ball' that many know to be Huggins but rather a tribute to Butler and the coaching job that Huggins has done this year.

TheRob8801
04-04-2010, 12:16 AM
I can't deny that Bob has done a great job with this team...

...but I don't think I'll ever buy him as a compassionate "good guy".

Cavlaw
04-04-2010, 12:18 AM
Very glad to see it looks like Butler will be ok.

Welcome2DaSlopes
04-04-2010, 12:19 AM
This was a very touching moment.

Wildling
04-04-2010, 12:20 AM
I had a lump in my throat when Butler was screaming "coach, oh coach!"

It was a sad,sad moment seeing a kid go out that way.

TampaDukie
04-04-2010, 12:21 AM
Glad to hear it only appears to be a sprained knee for Butler. As much as I wanted to see his WVU career end with a loss, I most definitely did not want to see it end with an injury. Here's to a speedy recovery for him.

billyj
04-04-2010, 12:21 AM
I can't deny that Bob has done a great job with this team...

...but I don't think I'll ever buy him as a compassionate "good guy".

It's very sad ending to an outstanding senior's career at WVU. I hope he will recover from the injury.

To second what Rob said, I am not buying the media's attempt of making Huggins looks like a "compassionate" person. He simply isn't. If he really cared of Butler like a father, would he have argued with the Ref for a good two minute before come to check on Butler's injury? I am just not feeling the "love" from him to his players. I think a person's character is defined by their track record, not by a single moment.

DukieBoy
04-04-2010, 12:22 AM
I personally can't recall a more touching moment I've ever seen. You could truly see the emotion in Huggins face when he sat back up. I gained TONS of respect for him tonight

Ultrarunner
04-04-2010, 12:22 AM
Very glad to see it looks like Butler will be ok.

Do you have a source? - I've been trying to follow up but I'm in the hinterlands. Really hoping the kid is okay.

SharkD
04-04-2010, 12:22 AM
Considering all the 'below the belt' punches that WVU doled out in the course of this game, yeah, I don't see Huggins as a Good Guy.

Hopefully, Da'Sean Butler simply tweaked/sprained his knee and I wish him a speedy recovery, but that doesn't garner any sympathy or respect, from me towards Huggins, who, by the way, stood over Butler for a good 45 seconds, before finally leaning over to talk to him.

slower
04-04-2010, 12:23 AM
Do you have a source? - I've been trying to follow up but I'm in the hinterlands. Really hoping the kid is okay.

ESPN reports it's a sprained knee.


All the revisionist Huggy love is revoltingly idiotic. He did something decently human - that doesn't suddenly make him a saint.

Wildling
04-04-2010, 12:23 AM
It's very sad ending to an outstanding senior's career at WVU. I hope he will recover from the injury.

To second what Rob said, I am not buying the media's attempt of making Huggins looks like a "compassionate" person. He simply isn't. If he really cared of Butler like a father, would he have argued with the Ref for a good two minute before come to check on Butler's injury? I am just not feeling the "love" from him to his players.

Oh come on, Huggins eye's were beat red from holding back tears. Show some class.

Cavlaw
04-04-2010, 12:26 AM
Yes, ESPN says it's a sprained knee. Reports:"It wasn't that big of a deal," Butler said. "It scared me because I've never hurt anything before. You see all these people get hurt, and I was afraid it happened to me."

Ultrarunner
04-04-2010, 12:28 AM
ESPN reports it's a sprained knee

Thanks - ESPN website hasn't updated and I don't have cable or dish.

KenTankerous
04-04-2010, 12:30 AM
Aside from Calipari, I have always held Huggins as the worst college basketball had to offer. Seeing him comfort Butler tonight changed all that.

I'm not sure this is the right place for this but check out how this Louisville fan blames Zoubeck for Butler's injury:

http://www.louisvillemojo.com/newforums/Replies.Cfm?TID=161475&FID=18&StartRow=1&xvar=1#Reply5280218

FerryFor50
04-04-2010, 12:30 AM
Yes, ESPN says it's a sprained knee. Reports:"It wasn't that big of a deal," Butler said. "It scared me because I've never hurt anything before. You see all these people get hurt, and I was afraid it happened to me."

So he overreacted... and Huggins complained about the refs before he remembered that he should be looking after his player... and then did it in probably the creepiest way possible. And now he's a saint?

Please.

flyingdutchdevil
04-04-2010, 12:30 AM
Huggins showed true compassion tonight. Sure - he has a shady past, but he did a great job of truly caring for his players.

And let's also focus on Butler - what a great basketball player. Forgot the award he won, but it was for excellence in academics, community service and, least important, athletics. Good for him - I see him as WVU's Shane Battier - and that's a helluva honour.

baby-face dawkins
04-04-2010, 12:42 AM
The scene tonight with Butler and Huggins = respect

BobbyFan
04-04-2010, 12:47 AM
Huggins' past is what it is, and opinions about him may remain unchanged. But that doesn't negate the compassionate moment he had with his star player.

I also have no problem with his complaints to the ref about the call - that was during the game, and virtually all coaches will do the same. Huggins made no such comments in the post game interview.

91devil
04-04-2010, 12:58 AM
Coach K and Coach Huggins appear to be very good friends (had read that before and their pre-game handshake was very friendly); I suspect Coach K has great respect for Bob Huggins, and that's good enough for me. Coach Huggins has done great things in previous jobs, and now at West Virginia.

His compassion to Butler was very father figure-like, something I think Coach K would have with one of our players in a similar situation, and that demands our respect.

dustin8131
04-04-2010, 01:04 AM
and they cut to the roy jones jr fight

hedevil
04-04-2010, 01:05 AM
To be honest, I don't think Huggins knew that everything he was saying was caught on camera, therefore he came out to the post game with no clue that everything he said had been heard. Good news is that Butler will be okay. As for Huggins, I don't have much of an opinion, he's going home and DUKE's moving on. I do think he's sincere when it comes to his players. Can't you be an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and a decent person at the same time?:D

TampaDukie
04-04-2010, 01:11 AM
Coach K and Coach Huggins appear to be very good friends (had read that before and their pre-game handshake was very friendly); I suspect Coach K has great respect for Bob Huggins, and that's good enough for me. Coach Huggins has done great things in previous jobs, and now at West Virginia.

His compassion to Butler was very father figure-like, something I think Coach K would have with one of our players in a similar situation, and that demands our respect.
I agree. I could absolutely see K doing the same thing, and he's spoken in the press conferences this week about his friendship with Huggins the the high esteem in which he holds him.

And even though I will always have issues with his appalling graduation rate and don't think this compassionate episode negates all his past wrongs, I thought his reaction to Butler's injury was very genuine and heartfelt. It was also hard to see the reaction of his wife and daughters to the injury. I think it's clear they all love Da'Sean Butler as a person.

Cameron
04-04-2010, 01:16 AM
So he overreacted... and Huggins complained about the refs before he remembered that he should be looking after his player... and then did it in probably the creepiest way possible. And now he's a saint?

Please.

This.

But I actually don't mind Huggins. He's an Ohio guy (well, a lot of him is) as am I and his Dad is a living legend in the town I grew up visiting my grandparents in. Great basketball family. There is is no denying, however, the fact that Huggins has been pretty sleazy in the past. The drunk driving charges -- on more than one occasion -- are reason enough.

But, I certainly don't get the whole compassion thing. You think Tom Izzo cared any less when Lucas went down? No.

killerleft
04-04-2010, 01:18 AM
I really hated that Butler got hurt. I have no problem with Huggy using the Duke Doesn't Foul card.

But I lost a lot of respect for Clark Kellogg and Jim Nantz when they didn't immediately point out that Zoubs made a great play to get into position for what was an obvious charge. Was it a chicken yellow moment, or was the silence after Huggy's "So Duke doesn't foul..." comment deliberate?

Either way, the silence was far from golden.

Go Duke!

fgb
04-04-2010, 01:24 AM
i always hated huggins. i mean hated. that said, i believe in human beings; meaning: there is no one who cannot improve.

coach huggins was a class act tonight. he simply was up against a better team, and he made no excuses. and when his best player went down, he went out onto the floor and looked that kid in the eye with the sort of raw emotion rarely seen in life, much less sports. and you know what? i buy it: he loves the kid. that moment is what this whole thing is all about: not a banner; love for your team.

huggins has a past, no doubt. the man came home, though, and maybe we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt for that. allow a man redemption.

noyac
04-04-2010, 01:39 AM
I really hated that Butler got hurt. I have no problem with Huggy using the Duke Doesn't Foul card.

But I lost a lot of respect for Clark Kellogg and Jim Nantz when they didn't immediately point out that Zoubs made a great play to get into position for what was an obvious charge. Was it a chicken yellow moment, or was the silence after Huggy's "So Duke doesn't foul..." comment deliberate?

Either way, the silence was far from golden.

Go Duke!

I didn't hear the announcers but I was at the game and you could see Zoubs coming all the way from the other side of the lane way before Butler even came close to the lane. I thought it was a magnificent play by Zoubs and I immediately began to applaud until I saw how much pain Butler was in. As much as I wanted to beat them and hated all their fans I never want to see a very talented player go down with an injury that appeared to be very serious. Glad to hear he should be fine.

Kewlswim
04-04-2010, 01:55 AM
Hi,

I am glad Coach Huggins cares so much about his kids. Perhaps he can turn over a new leaf and have them go to class as well.

GO DUKE!

Susan
04-04-2010, 01:56 AM
I really hated that Butler got hurt. I have no problem with Huggy using the Duke Doesn't Foul card.

But I lost a lot of respect for Clark Kellogg and Jim Nantz when they didn't immediately point out that Zoubs made a great play to get into position for what was an obvious charge. Was it a chicken yellow moment, or was the silence after Huggy's "So Duke doesn't foul..." comment deliberate?

Either way, the silence was far from golden.

Go Duke!

Agree completely. I said to my husband after Nantz and Kellogg repeated what Huggins said (Duke Doesn't Foul) that they would NEVER have repeated it if Coach K had said it about WVA. I think many commentators now are worried that they will be labeled as Duke lovers like Vitale unless point out every potentially questionable call that goes Duke's way. On the contrary, they could have pointed out that Plumlee's technical was questionable, for example. Of course not.

Zoubek's play was great when Butler unfortunately got hurt. His play should have been recognized as such, and they should have gone out of their way to say that Butler's injury was just an unfortunate result of a good defensive play by Zoubek.

It's great that Huggins cares so much for Butler. It didn't change my opinion of him as a coach -- i always felt he cared about his players (maybe not if they graduated, though.) He's a good coach--definitely outcoached Calipari in the last game. I'm glad he lost tonight--nice payback for 2 years ago. And I'm really glad Butler will be ok.

weezie
04-04-2010, 02:10 AM
Oh come on, Huggins eye's were beat red from holding back tears. Show some class.

I couldn't see all this from where I was but the blog postings brought tears to my eyes. It sure was scary in Lucas. The Crazies did cheer Butler's name, which was pretty cool. Several people complimented our students afterwards.

noyac
04-04-2010, 02:12 AM
I couldn't see all this from where I was but the blog postings brought tears to my eyes. It sure was scary in Lucas. The Crazies did cheer Butler's name, which was pretty cool. Several people complimented our students afterwards.

Some WV fans in my section (nosebleed) were sarcastically saying "Way to be classy Dukies." I told them that we were not mocking him or his injury but paying him tribute. They completely took the chant out of context.

weezie
04-04-2010, 02:16 AM
Butler fans complimented the Duke students. I doubt the lumpish wvu fans know what real class consists of!

Edouble
04-04-2010, 02:55 AM
I guess I'm in the silent minority, but the exchange between Huggins and Butler was really weird. It looked like they were close to making out. I wasn't touched, so much as weirded out. The affection from coach to player is great and all, but the physicality of the act was offputting. When Huggins knelt down to speak to him, I wasn't expecting the two of them to be forehead to forehead a second later. :confused:

Cameron
04-04-2010, 03:00 AM
I guess I'm in the silent minority, but the exchange between Huggins and Butler was really weird. It looked like they were close to making out. I wasn't touched, so much as weirded out. The affection from coach to player is great and all, but the physicality of the act was offputting. When Huggins knelt down to speak to him, I wasn't expecting the two of them to be forehead to forehead a second later.

Bingo.

A friend of mine who was watching the game in a crowded Boston bar asked me what had exactly happened with Butler's injury. I told her that there was believed to be a knee sprain of some sort, but that I was unsure exactly. "Another thing they aren't quite sure about," I told her, "is why his coach knelt over him and started to caress his body."

Pretty freakin' weird. Never seen a coach do this.

hood7
04-04-2010, 07:59 AM
I'd sure like someone on tv to clearly point out the very obvious fact that Butler sprained his knee all by himself - PRIOR TO any contact with Zoubek (which contact, by the way, was very appropriately called a charge). He tried to pull up or change direction and the knee gave out... quite a bummer for sure, tragic maybe even, but not a result of the contact that Butler himself caused, it was just one of those turn/pivot sprains. The only causative effect Zoubek had was to be in the spot first to make Butler need to make a change of direction.

I sincerely hope Butler has a speedy and complete recovery, and that he does well in the NBA draft. He really does seem to be a good guy and a great ballplayer. Regarding Butler's good-guy-ness and the fact that Butler is a good student, I do need to ask a question: Did Huggins recruit Butler or did he inherit him when he took over WV a few years ago? I ask because I'm just not that used to Huggins having such a great student-athlete on his team.

Hectors Grease Fire
04-04-2010, 08:47 AM
Lets say Scheyer went down and Coach K reacted the exact same way (he wouldn't have)...

Wouldn't Duke fans be subjected to homophobic taunts recounting the incident?

Wouldn't Scheyer be skewered for overreacting to a "minor" injury?

Wouldn't K and Duke be lambasted for basically quitting and mailing in the rest of the game?

BobbyFan
04-04-2010, 08:55 AM
But, I certainly don't get the whole compassion thing. You think Tom Izzo cared any less when Lucas went down? No.

Who is arguing that Izzo cared less about Lucas?

miramar
04-04-2010, 09:16 AM
While Huggins and others are convinced that Duke doesn't foul, the latest mini-controversy again deals with Brian Zoubek, who has been a foul magnet during his four years at Duke.

He had four fouls last night and was Dairy Queened against Baylor, as Clark Kellogg would say, but to his credit his mobility has improved to such an extent that he can take charges in big games.

Amazingly, instead of applauding his improvement, now people want to turn him into a goon. Seriously, are we talking about the same Zoubs?

I guess the problem is that this team truly doesn't have anybody you can hate so they have to pick somebody at random.

ReformedAggie
04-04-2010, 09:17 AM
I cry at the drop of a hat - but I wasn't buying the over the top Huggins moment. I'm glad the player is going to be ok, I'm sure he was scared,
but..... well it just seemed like Huggins was milking it. If I'm wrong, so be it, that's what it seemed like to me.

Stray Gator
04-04-2010, 09:18 AM
I don't know whether it could be seen or heard on the TV broadcast, but the students and fans in the Duke section stadium not only gave DaSean Butler a more-than-polite round of applause, but honored him with the traditional chant: "Da-Sean But-ler, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap." Everyone around us in section 143, which is the middle of the Duke section, was genuinely concerned and respectful.

I was proud to see our students and fans react appropriately to an opposing player's unfortunate injury--which, as replays clearly show, occurred before he collided with Zoubek. It was disappointing for the young man that he was unable to finish the game, but I don't believe any credible observer can seriously suggest that his departure affected the ultimate outcome.

Buckeye Devil
04-04-2010, 09:18 AM
No one likes to see a quality player and individual like Butler get hurt, regardless of team affiliation. I don't doubt he was in pain but it hurts more when you are going to get beat. Butler was completely taken out of his game by Duke and Zoubek did a good job of getting into position.

I don't find Huggins action all that touching. Injury is a part of any sport and the whole thing sure seemed to be overdone. If you want a saint, Bob it ain't. His dad is, however.

dalmatians98
04-04-2010, 09:24 AM
From what I was seeing on the television, Da'Sean Butler seemed frantic as he lay on the floor. I could only imagine everything that was going through that young man's mind and I felt very sorry for him. In my opinion, Coach Huggins' efforts to comfort him were nothing less than admirable. I saw nothing "creepy" or "weird", to quote a couple of earlier posters, about his actions.

I'm glad to hear that Butler's injury doesn't appear to be as serious as first feared and I hope he has a complete recovery. By all accounts he's a quality young man and I wish him nothing but the best.

GO DUKE

hudlow
04-04-2010, 09:34 AM
I thought the way Butler was carrying on that he'd had his leg knocked clean off. The camera angle while Huggins was comforting Butler probably made it look a lot ickier than it really was.

But I wouldn't have wanted Bob Huggins laying on top of me breathing in my face on national TV.

You couldn't hurt me that bad.

hud

jkidd31
04-04-2010, 09:41 AM
Couple things about Huggins. You hear a lot more here in the Cincinnati area then you do nationally.
-The guy had a drinking problem and it ended up costing him. The sad thing is he had been pulled over previously by the same police. Had they done their job the first time maybe things end differently and he gets help.
-The graduation rates are overblown. Huggins has had several players while at UC who came back during the summers while playing professionaly and finished out their degrees. Of course they did so outside the window that the NCAA uses so they count like a guy that flunked out. ALso early on he used JUCO's, they finished their degrees....don't count.

That said I'm not a huge Huggins fan, but like a lot of the negatives you hear about Duke, much is media driven because people read it.

devildeac
04-04-2010, 09:45 AM
I don't know whether it could be seen or heard on the TV broadcast, but the students and fans in the Duke section stadium not only gave DaSean Butler a more-than-polite round of applause, but honored him with the traditional chant: "Da-Sean But-ler, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap." Everyone around us in section 143, which is the middle of the Duke section, was genuinely concerned and respectful.

I was proud to see our students and fans react appropriately to an opposing player's unfortunate injury--which, as replays clearly show, occurred before he collided with Zoubek. It was disappointing for the young man that he was unable to finish the game, but I don't believe any credible observer can seriously suggest that his departure affected the ultimate outcome.

And therein lies the problem. Where do you suppose you will be able to find any of those that are not wearing the Duke blue shaded eyewear?:rolleyes:;)

jipops
04-04-2010, 09:51 AM
Couple things about Huggins. You hear a lot more here in the Cincinnati area then you do nationally.
-The guy had a drinking problem and it ended up costing him. The sad thing is he had been pulled over previously by the same police. Had they done their job the first time maybe things end differently and he gets help.
-The graduation rates are overblown. Huggins has had several players while at UC who came back during the summers while playing professionaly and finished out their degrees. Of course they did so outside the window that the NCAA uses so they count like a guy that flunked out. ALso early on he used JUCO's, they finished their degrees....don't count.

That said I'm not a huge Huggins fan, but like a lot of the negatives you hear about Duke, much is media driven because people read it.

Agree on Huggins. He's got warts. So does everyone else. So does Coach K. While I don't think he's an angel he is clearly devoted to the kids he coaches, especially the ones that show so much heart out on the floor like De'Shaun does. This too is not much different than other coaches out there.

Huggins is a fantastic game coach and I'd expect him to be back in the Final Four again. Though he missed out on switching out of the 1-3-1 a bit and his team was taken out last night, wvu's season has been remarkable almost all due to how he structured this team's offense and defense. He should probably get COY. Huggy is an extremely bright guy, he was an academic all-am at wvu and graduated summa cum laude.

moonpie23
04-04-2010, 09:51 AM
i have to admit, i am not knowledgeable with regard to Butler and perhaps any kind of pro aspirations he may have. Regardless, nba, europe whatever, he could have possibly thought, at that moment, that his playing career was OVER.....that his ability to make a decent living for him and his family was DONE......

add that to the emotion of going out of the game when his team needed him most and you've got a really awful situation for him...


i think huggie knew what a mental and physical devastation the kid was suffering from and did his best to get him through it...

I NEVER want to see a player hurt. That being said, i was concerned that the injury and following sympathy would see a turn in emotion and duke take their boot off WVU's throat.....

coach k didn't let that happen..

Deslok
04-04-2010, 09:54 AM
I am definitely not a Huggins fan at all. But last night did nothing but raise my estimation of him. During the incident in question, yeah, his first reaction was the wrong one, going at the officials. But I expect those kinds of comments from every coach, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in that original, he didn't think the injury was as bad it then looked to be. And regarding the odd position, you've got a senior player, who has never had a knee injury of any kind, in all kinds of pain, thinking he's let his team down, and wondering if he's going to have a shot at his NBA dream now, in what he hoped would be a grand showcase for the end of his college career. Right then and there, I'd want my coach right there with me saying anything he could to soothe my fears, to settle me down in a moment of agony.

And if you didn't see the post game press conference, he was very classy, blamed WVU's difficulties on himself and mistakes he made(take some notes Roy Williams), nothing his players did. And praised Duke for playing better than he had given them credit for.

Cockabeau
04-04-2010, 10:05 AM
Say what you want about Huggins.

He graduated Magna Cum Laude.
He gets my respect for that.

brevity
04-04-2010, 10:15 AM
Did Huggins recruit Butler or did he inherit him when he took over WV a few years ago?

Inherited. John Beilein recruited him. Interestingly, Bob Huggins' recruiting efforts back then were seen elsewhere in the 2010 bracket, with the junior and senior players at Kansas State.


In my opinion, Coach Huggins' efforts to comfort him were nothing less than admirable. I saw nothing "creepy" or "weird", to quote a couple of earlier posters, about his actions.

Thank you. I will admit that the sight (particularly the angles CBS chose) was awkward, and were I an announcer, I may have slipped out a "Hmm" to denote my reaction. But I drew the conclusion that Coach Huggins was nothing more than a close talker.

I'm not sure why this one action changes anyone's opinion of the man, positively or negatively. Unlike certain coaches we know, Coach Huggins is not known for throwing his players under the bus. He's certainly flawed, but probably a guy you want on your side.

I would think Duke fans, of all people, would not be so quick to vilify a Final Four coach because it's convenient.

slower
04-04-2010, 10:26 AM
Lets say Scheyer went down and Coach K reacted the exact same way (he wouldn't have)...

Wouldn't Duke fans be subjected to homophobic taunts recounting the incident?

Wouldn't Scheyer be skewered for overreacting to a "minor" injury?

Wouldn't K and Duke be lambasted for basically quitting and mailing in the rest of the game?

Yep, no doubt about it.

Duke Mom
04-04-2010, 10:57 AM
I don't know whether it could be seen or heard on the TV broadcast, but the students and fans in the Duke section stadium not only gave DaSean Butler a more-than-polite round of applause, but honored him with the traditional chant: "Da-Sean But-ler, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap." Everyone around us in section 143, which is the middle of the Duke section, was genuinely concerned and respectful.

I was proud to see our students and fans react appropriately to an opposing player's unfortunate injury--which, as replays clearly show, occurred before he collided with Zoubek. It was disappointing for the young man that he was unable to finish the game, but I don't believe any credible observer can seriously suggest that his departure affected the ultimate outcome.

Wow, didn't hear our students giving props to DaSean on TV, that makes me feel proud. Wish the broadcasters would have picked that up!

DukieInBrasil
04-04-2010, 11:22 AM
So he overreacted... and Huggins complained about the refs before he remembered that he should be looking after his player... and then did it in probably the creepiest way possible. And now he's a saint?

Please.

Creepy? What was creepy about comforting his player?

Seriously, anybody giving Huggins crap about how he dealt with his player, or how he waited for a few seconds before getting on the floor to comfort Butler needs to shut up. The sports med people had to get in there and get an initial diagnosis on the injury and if Huggins had rushed right in there he would have only complicated the situation. Sure, comforting his player doesn't transform Huggins into a saint, but he was definitely demonstrating his love for his player, and for that he deserves respect, not lame-o critical whining from people who want to sound like sore winners.

Coach K has a great relationship with his players and I'm sure K would react in a very similar way for any of his players.

30scheyer
04-04-2010, 11:24 AM
i have to admit, i am not knowledgeable with regard to Butler and perhaps any kind of pro aspirations he may have. Regardless, nba, europe whatever, he could have possibly thought, at that moment, that his playing career was OVER.....that his ability to make a decent living for him and his family was DONE......

add that to the emotion of going out of the game when his team needed him most and you've got a really awful situation for him...


i think huggie knew what a mental and physical devastation the kid was suffering from and did his best to get him through it...

I NEVER want to see a player hurt. That being said, i was concerned that the injury and following sympathy would see a turn in emotion and duke take their boot off WVU's throat.....

coach k didn't let that happen..



I agree with you here. He was thinking his career was over...his emotion was jacked up from the game slipping away from WV. He just looked so vulnerable on the floor...at least Huggy was there for him

PearlJimKusz
04-04-2010, 01:06 PM
As someone who recently strained their knee (specifically MCL) after going 27 years of playing and never once hurting my knee...it is a very scary thing to have happen. My incident happened almost 3 months ago now in my first game of a winter basketball league. When it happened, I thought for sure my knee was all torn apart. The pain was excruciating and 3 months later I have not been able to play yet and there is still some lingering pain. I felt for Butler immediately not only because of my personal situation but because of everything surrounding his injury (game, score etc). I thought Huggins did a great job tending to his obviously shaken up player as well as buying a timeout for his team at the same time. Believe me I am not a Huggins fan, however last night I thought it was great how he handled it and it showed his love/respect for his players.

Delaware
04-04-2010, 01:09 PM
I'd sure like someone on tv to clearly point out the very obvious fact that Butler sprained his knee all by himself - PRIOR TO any contact with Zoubek (which contact, by the way, was very appropriately called a charge). He tried to pull up or change direction and the knee gave out... quite a bummer for sure, tragic maybe even, but not a result of the contact that Butler himself caused, it was just one of those turn/pivot sprains. The only causative effect Zoubek had was to be in the spot first to make Butler need to make a change of direction.

I sincerely hope Butler has a speedy and complete recovery, and that he does well in the NBA draft. He really does seem to be a good guy and a great ballplayer. Regarding Butler's good-guy-ness and the fact that Butler is a good student, I do need to ask a question: Did Huggins recruit Butler or did he inherit him when he took over WV a few years ago? I ask because I'm just not that used to Huggins having such a great student-athlete on his team.

Absolutely.... Butler's knee gave out BEFORE he hit Zoubek. And clearly Z was there and in position.

Richard Berg
04-04-2010, 01:16 PM
I could hear the Crazies chanting "Da-Sean But-ler" clearly on the CBS broadcast. I think most people were so taken in by the image of Huggins on the ground that they didn't notice.

Kimist
04-04-2010, 01:58 PM
Huggins' snide pre-game comments about the "Big East prepared us" and then his whining to the refs about the foul involving his All-American just reinforced my overall negative opinion of him.

It was a touching, personal moment to see his interaction with the injured player who, apparently, did not sustain a serious injury.

But other than that, I put the entire episode into the "lipstick on a pig" category.

Sorry, Coach Huggins, but a couple of minutes of compassion cannot erase your "history," to include the antics of some of your players at various schools, from my mind.

k

DukeMom
04-04-2010, 02:10 PM
I guess I'm in the silent minority, but the exchange between Huggins and Butler was really weird. It looked like they were close to making out. I wasn't touched, so much as weirded out. The affection from coach to player is great and all, but the physicality of the act was offputting. When Huggins knelt down to speak to him, I wasn't expecting the two of them to be forehead to forehead a second later. :confused:
I agree completely. I thought it was very, very strange and became, after the first few seconds, almost staged and dragged out for just the effect that it seems to have had on a number of people: that viewers would think well of Huggins because he cared so much about Butler when it began to look like it was Huggins being all about Huggins. It was as though he was saying, "Look at me, aren't I wonderful?" and he just kept at it. After 30 seconds of it, I then began to think "Huggins knows they have lost this game, as does Butler and maybe all this drama is about that fact and not so much about the knee." Just strange.

DukeMom
04-04-2010, 02:25 PM
Say what you want about Huggins.

He graduated Magna Cum Laude.
He gets my respect for that.

Wondering how hard that could be to do at an academic powerhouse like WVU. Just saying.

mapei
04-04-2010, 02:27 PM
Couple things about Huggins. You hear a lot more here in the Cincinnati area then you do nationally.
-The guy had a drinking problem and it ended up costing him. The sad thing is he had been pulled over previously by the same police. Had they done their job the first time maybe things end differently and he gets help.


During the Big East tournament last month he was walking around the streets outside Madison Square Garden with a large cup of beer. Not that any of us can't enjoy a beer in the right place and time, but that was neither.

I thought his consoling Butler in such physical closeness was weird and discomforting but also genuine. I have never doubted his concern for his players on a human level.

But there remains much I don't respect about him and his team's fan base.

JBDuke
04-04-2010, 03:08 PM
Wondering how hard that could be to do at an academic powerhouse like WVU. Just saying.

Please. This is the kind of intellectual snobbery that reinforces the image of Duke as full of elitists. Graduating magna cum laude from just about any accredited university ought to be worthy of respect.

JBDuke
04-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Lets say Scheyer went down and Coach K reacted the exact same way (he wouldn't have)...

Wouldn't Duke fans be subjected to homophobic taunts recounting the incident?

Wouldn't Scheyer be skewered for overreacting to a "minor" injury?

Wouldn't K and Duke be lambasted for basically quitting and mailing in the rest of the game?

So what? We should sink to the level of those whose actions we despise? Let's not play this game.

bjornolf
04-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Aside from Calipari, I have always held Huggins as the worst college basketball had to offer. Seeing him comfort Butler tonight changed all that.

I'm not sure this is the right place for this but check out how this Louisville fan blames Zoubeck for Butler's injury:

http://www.louisvillemojo.com/newforums/Replies.Cfm?TID=161475&FID=18&StartRow=1&xvar=1#Reply5280218

That's total crap. I watched the replay ten times on my TiVo. You can CLEARLY see that his knee buckles and he's already starting to crumble BEFORE he even makes contact with Zoubek. As he contacts Zoubek, he's already losing the ball and his hands are starting to move towards his knee. If he had planted like that and nobody had been between him and the basket, it STILL would have happened (of course, if a defender hadn't been there, he'd have had no need to try to plant like that).

My respect for Huggy Bear definitely went up last night after that. I'll be very relieved if the ESPN reports are correct and Butler is fine. I'll be praying for a speedy recovery for him. I will say that I have both sprained and torn up a knee. The sprain was MUCH more painful in the short term. With a tear, you usually have some shock, and nerves are often damaged, so you don't feel as much pain. A sprain is sort of an ALMOST tear or even a partial tear, so all your nerves are screaming at you to STOP so you DON'T tear it. Like I said, in the short term, a sprain, in my case and I have heard quite commonly, is often MORE painful than a tear. From what Huggy Bear said in his post game presser, Butler seemed even more upset about letting his team down than about the injury when he was lying on the floor after the collision.

Spam Filter
04-04-2010, 03:30 PM
Word is that Butler has a torn ACL after all.

Feel terrible for him.

Greg_Newton
04-04-2010, 03:31 PM
Lets say Scheyer went down and Coach K reacted the exact same way (he wouldn't have)...

Wouldn't Duke fans be subjected to homophobic taunts recounting the incident?

Wouldn't Scheyer be skewered for overreacting to a "minor" injury?

Wouldn't K and Duke be lambasted for basically quitting and mailing in the rest of the game?

Unfortunately, Butler did tear his ACL. Apparently the initial diagnosis was incorrect.

(Edit: looks like Spam Filter beat me to it...)

bjornolf
04-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Here's a link:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/04/report-west-virginias-dasean-butler-has-acl-tear-mcl-sprain/1

tele
04-04-2010, 03:41 PM
I hope Butler is ok too, he is a fine player. When your knee folds on you it can be a scary event. For an elite athlete in a big game with their whole future in front of them, almost unimaginable. I hope he comes back strong and plays for a long long time.

Richard Berg
04-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Adam Zagoria of Zagsblog.com reported Sunday that Butler "suffered a torn ACL, minor MCL sprain and two bone bruises."
Just remember folks, only a fraction of an inch separates this kind of devastating injury from the one Lance Thomas was able to recover from in less than a week. We should consider ourselves very lucky.

TampaDukie
04-04-2010, 03:55 PM
-The graduation rates are overblown. Huggins has had several players while at UC who came back during the summers while playing professionaly and finished out their degrees. Of course they did so outside the window that the NCAA uses so they count like a guy that flunked out. ALso early on he used JUCO's, they finished their degrees....don't count.
Thanks for that info. It's nice to know some of his guys were graduating after all.

And sorry to hear that Butler's injury is more serious than first reported. I really hope he recovers to full strength as quickly as possible.

tele
04-04-2010, 04:01 PM
Word is that Butler has a torn ACL after all.

Feel terrible for him.

Very sorry to hear this, had a feeling just going by his reaction it was more serious than a sprain.

DukeAppWV
04-04-2010, 04:05 PM
After the 2008 game, I've never liked WVU, or Huggins for that matter. But after Butler's injury, I couldn't help but have all respect for Huggins. He is a really good, if not great, coach that really cares about his players. Check out this blog about about Duke's win and Huggins from Andy Katz and Eamonn Brennan:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/tag/_/name/040310-mountaineers-bluedevils

NOTE: Please don't make this thread about the 'sleaze-ball' that many know to be Huggins but rather a tribute to Butler and the coaching job that Huggins has done this year.

Like the announcers said - those who don't know him have no idea! and I would say that is probably all of us - However, I have a good friend whom I have known for a long time who is a head basketball coach in a major "BCS" conference and he has told me on several occasions that "Huggins is one of the top 5 coaches that he says is a great guy" and Coach K is in his group of 5 as well ----

Kewlswim
04-04-2010, 04:37 PM
Hi,

I didn't get a chance to read all the messages in the thread, so perhaps this has already been covered, but when JWill fell at Duke and Coach K came over to comfort him it was very touching. Coach K, if I remember correctly, massaged JWill's neck and then said something like, "I need you, the team needs you." For some reason, and not just because it was my beloved Duke coach and player, it felt really genuine and nice. What happened last night, though I liked the intent, came off as well, sort of creepy.

I am glad to read that Coach Huggins does graduate players. That is really great to read.

GO DUKE!

cameroncrazy3104
04-04-2010, 05:30 PM
It was just announced that Da'Sean tore his ACL.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/tournament/2010/news/story?id=5054764

FerryFor50
04-04-2010, 05:58 PM
Ok now I feel like a jerk for saying he "overreacted." Initial reports were just a sprain. Hope he's able to rehab it back to better than new and get the NBA paycheck that's coming to him!

BleedsP287
04-04-2010, 06:41 PM
I'm not normally very cynical, but it looked to me that Huggins was playing to the camera when he cradled Butler's head like that.

It seemed very weird to me. I'm not up on all the reasons to dislike Huggins, so I never did and still don't, but if anything my opinion of him went down a bit as that whole scene seemed faked to me. Well, the Huggins comforting part anyway. Obviously Butler's injury was real and a damn shame. Hope he recovers quickly.

Coballs
04-04-2010, 07:03 PM
Unfortunately, the initial reports of a simple knee sprain were inaccurate. He tore his ACL. I really feel bad for this him. Apparently he's not only a great talent but a great person as well. Hopefully, he'll have a speedy and complete recovery.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/tournament/2010/news/story?id=5054764

Coballs
04-04-2010, 07:10 PM
I'm not normally very cynical, but it looked to me that Huggins was playing to the camera when he cradled Butler's head like that.

It seemed very weird to me. I'm not up on all the reasons to dislike Huggins, so I never did and still don't, but if anything my opinion of him went down a bit as that whole scene seemed faked to me. Well, the Huggins comforting part anyway. Obviously Butler's injury was real and a damn shame. Hope he recovers quickly.

C'mon man. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I seriously doubt that Huggins was intentionally playing to the camera with his team on the ropes late in a national semifinal game after a serious injury suffered by his star senior. That was probably the furthest thing from his mind. It was a highly emotional moment between coach/mentor and player, that just happened to be broadcast (up close) on national television. Huggins comes off as the type of guy who really doesn't care what anyone thinks about him. Now Ol' Roy on the other hand.....

Dr. Tina
04-04-2010, 07:14 PM
I feel very bad for Butler. What a horrible way to end your college career in such a big game! I was really happy Duke won last night, but I was much more subdued about it after watching him go out. He's been a great player for WVU and appears to be a great person. I read about his recent visit to see a longtime WVU fan recovering from heart surgery recently and also read about how friendly he was with the fans at Lucas Stadium. I really hope he recovers from this, but this has probably really jeopardized his drafting chances. Not a way any college player wants to go out!

roywhite
04-04-2010, 07:25 PM
Really a tough break for the young man. Hope his longterm pro prospects are not hurt by this injury.

From the espn link:

West Virginia senior Da'Sean Butler was diagnosed Sunday with a torn ACL in his left knee a day after a hard collision in a loss against Duke in the national semifinals....

Sports information director Bryan Messerly said the MRI also revealed a sprain of the medial collateral ligament and two bone bruises.

It was my impression that Butler's knee buckled prior to making contact with Zoubek. Is that accurate? Was this a combination of a twisting and a collision?

Dr. Tina
04-04-2010, 07:34 PM
I thought Butler was attempting to plant his foot when he saw Zoubek standing there, and his left knee buckled when he did that.

Eckster
04-04-2010, 07:41 PM
Just an unfortunate response to having a giant plant himself in front of you led to a reaction that bent the knee in an awkward way. Get well soon.

Eckster
04-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Ok now I feel like a jerk for saying he "overreacted." Initial reports were just a sprain. Hope he's able to rehab it back to better than new and get the NBA paycheck that's coming to him!

He did seem a bit uncomfortable for "just a sprain". Not too surprised that it's more serious than that.

CDu
04-04-2010, 08:19 PM
Really a tough break for the young man. Hope his longterm pro prospects are not hurt by this injury.

From the espn link:


It was my impression that Butler's knee buckled prior to making contact with Zoubek. Is that accurate? Was this a combination of a twisting and a collision?

His left knee never actually made contact with Zoubek. The injury appeared to occur when he knee buckled as he planted for takeoff. The impending collision may have caused some adjustment right before takeoff, which may have helped cause the injury. But otherwise, the collision was completely unrelated to the injury to that knee. The collision itself wasn't substantially harder than any other block/charge play near the rim.

johnb
04-04-2010, 09:06 PM
From following his career at a great distance, I've lumped Huggins in with Calipari as smart guys who abuse the system. Calipari does it with future NBA players, while Huggins has been somewhat less successful with less talented players. I have no doubt that both are good coaches and that Huggins, in particular, squeezes performance out of his players.

From watching him more closely in the last few weeks, he has struck me as entitled and paranoid. he consistently disparages other teams, though it can be subtle (eg, he says he's watched a lot of Duke tape and had never seen them play like that; it's a compliment, sort of, but it primarily implies that Duke happened to have a quirkily great night while they had a quirkily poor showing), and it can be seen through the boorish behavior of his 2008 team after they beat us.

The fact that he showed compassion for his injured star player doesn't change any of that--and notice that he didn't say afterward that Zoubs wasn't at fault. Those who circle the wagons against the outside (and that's also a K trait as well as one shared by lots of coaches) certainly bond with those inside the wagons.

And the fact that he was an academic all american when he played for wvu doesn't mean that he strongly encourages his own players to study.

He's not Hugs to me; he's still Thugs.

But Butler (both the player and the team) seem like class acts, and I wish them both well (especially the player; the team I'll wish well in about 27 hours).

BD80
04-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Well written article by Andy Staples:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/04/04/huggins.butler/index.html?eref=sihp


Huggins, completely oblivious to ... the millions [watching] ..., followed his instincts.

Huggie hugged Butler. He whispered in his ear. He didn't care how it looked. He only cared about his player.

Butler was less concerned about the pain in his knee than he was about his teammates. He thought he'd let them down ... Huggins assured his star he hadn't let down his teammates.

slower
04-04-2010, 10:40 PM
I thought Butler was attempting to plant his foot when he saw Zoubek standing there, and his left knee buckled when he did that.

The new meme is that Butler's injury was caused by "a hard collision" w/Zoubs. Folks, the truth is irrelevant here. Monkeys with keyboards strike again, all in an effort to follow the "Duke as evil empire" script. Sickening.

Mudge
04-05-2010, 12:15 AM
He did seem a bit uncomfortable for "just a sprain". Not too surprised that it's more serious than that.

This was the first thing I thought-- there is no way that was "just a sprain"-- that kid was howling in pain, and I knew he blew a ligament the second he started rolling on the ground (contrast that with Lance Thomas' reaction when he bumped knees and got a bruise/sprain-- significantly less reaction at the moment). Both Huggins and his guys pride themselves on being tough guys, and I fully suspected that yesterday's post-game statements by Huggins and Butler (that it was "a sprain") were a cover up to minimize the focus on the injury, after what both of them probably perceived as an embarrassing incident.

I also think (though I'm not an orthopedic) that it's pretty standard procedure that they don't diagnose what happened to the knee immediately-- they wait a day after the traumatic injury (to let swelling subside?) to do the MRI, and then issue a definitive statement as to the nature and seriousness of the injury... so, to me, it was always premature yesterday, when two non-doctors (Huggins and Butler) suddenly, precipitously pronounced that it was "just a sprain"-- I think WVU's medical personnel never thought any such thing, but were fine with Huggins and Butler saying that, because who does it hurt-- they can say whatever they want-- it doesn't change the facts on the ground, or the diagnostic procedure that they were going to follow anyway.

soccerstud2210
04-05-2010, 12:46 AM
just a terrible injury for butler.

i hate wvu. and huggins. and the fans.

never really cared for butler. but to see something like that happen to a senior. in his last game. before going into the draft. just terrible. never like to see anything like that.

Rudy
04-05-2010, 07:29 AM
Unfortunately, Butler did tear his ACL. Apparently the initial diagnosis was incorrect.

Having had a complete ACL tear myself, that was my guess when I saw the replay and correlated it with Butler's reaction. He was showing real physical pain, not an emotional breakdown from thinking he let his team down.

DevilWearsPrada
04-05-2010, 09:02 AM
You could almost hear a pin drop in Lucas Oil Stadium Saturday evening, when Da'Sean went down. I had the binoculars, and the boy was in so much pain. Well wishes to Da'Sean, and his recovery back. He is an awesome basketball player,team leader, and I understand a fine young man.

jdj4duke
04-05-2010, 09:14 AM
Wow, didn't hear our students giving props to DaSean on TV, that makes me feel proud. Wish the broadcasters would have picked that up!

I could hear the student props for Butler loud and clear and mentioned to my wife that it was the Duke fans giving the cheer. If you have the game on replay, listen again. You will hear it. It's those little things that in spite of so much guff, make it easy to be a Dukie.

greybeard
04-05-2010, 10:01 AM
This was the first thing I thought-- there is no way that was "just a sprain"-- that kid was howling in pain, and I knew he blew a ligament the second he started rolling on the ground (contrast that with Lance Thomas' reaction when he bumped knees and got a bruise/sprain-- significantly less reaction at the moment). Both Huggins and his guys pride themselves on being tough guys, and I fully suspected that yesterday's post-game statements by Huggins and Butler (that it was "a sprain") were a cover up to minimize the focus on the injury, after what both of them probably perceived as an embarrassing incident.

I also think (though I'm not an orthopedic) that it's pretty standard procedure that they don't diagnose what happened to the knee immediately-- they wait a day after the traumatic injury (to let swelling subside?) to do the MRI, and then issue a definitive statement as to the nature and seriousness of the injury... so, to me, it was always premature yesterday, when two non-doctors (Huggins and Butler) suddenly, precipitously pronounced that it was "just a sprain"-- I think WVU's medical personnel never thought any such thing, but were fine with Huggins and Butler saying that, because who does it hurt-- they can say whatever they want-- it doesn't change the facts on the ground, or the diagnostic procedure that they were going to follow anyway.

I don't think that tearing an ACL hurts. What hurts, and hurts big, big time, if you have an injury precipitated by a lateral push-off move like Butler had, is the other damage that is far less ominous in terms of Butler's future well being, but pretty severe, except that we have come to accept it as part of the game. A nickel says that he shreeded cartillege as well as his ACL, and badly strained muscle in the process. There's the source of the pain, and that was the reason for the initial diagnosis.

I hope you sports fans who have kids will notice that two especially undersized and relatively unathletic terrifically prolific forwards in college basketball blew out their knees at the end of this season putting the ball on the ground and taking it into the trees. Butler especially has a style that involves twists and turns of his upper torso around the rim, which is combined with pushoffs that are not linear, that is, are out of alignment with the straight forward-and-back movement that the most poorly constructed and protected joint in the body is meant to be moved in. Two stars who were stars because of cleverness in the use of their bodies turned out to have misused their bodies and paid the price. (the other star is the kid from Purdue, by the way.)

I am not talking misused in terms of culpability, as in "it's their own fault." I'm talking misuse in that such injuries are the reasonably forseeable consequence of trying to get more out of your game than the rest of the pack and that what height, strength, leaping ability, and speed would otherwise permit.

It is terribly thrilling when you can envision and practice and create plays like Butler did, and beat the bigger and more athletic defenders by being in a different and unexpected place, and then finishing by shooting from quaint places like behind your ear or what not. That style of play has its cost. We SHOULD not be surprised. I am not. I made the same damn move in December of 1965 and have been paying the price, which only gets more dear the older one gets, ever since.

WE celebrate the wins Butler earned for his team and give him national awards at the end of the season. They are well deserved. He earned them. Regrettably, he has now paid for them. Nothing in this life is for free, and anyone who thinks that ACL surgery and grueling rehab is the total of the price need to think again; they were a down payment. The balloon payment starts kicking in 25 lears later; not fun.

For those of you who still play, and for those with kids who are just getting started, try to develop styles in the games that you play that take into account the risks of injury that those styles entail. It's not worth it. I think Butler himself will tell you the same thing, if not now, then later, when the big payments come due.

CameronBornAndBred
04-05-2010, 12:27 PM
He did seem a bit uncomfortable....
Understatement of the year!

CameronBornAndBred
04-05-2010, 12:32 PM
OK...so they link an email address, that apparently doesn't work, and then they suggest to go down the list of emails on WVU's site until we find one that works. Isn't that pretty irresponsible of us? If I didn't solicit for a boatload of well-wishing emails for a player, I sure don't want to get a bunch with the added responsibility of then forwarding them on to the player himself. The idea is nice, but how about doing some research first, and then giving us an email that is both valid and for someone who agrees to the responsibility.

Kfanarmy
04-05-2010, 12:32 PM
During the Big East tournament last month he was walking around the streets outside Madison Square Garden with a large cup of beer. Not that any of us can't enjoy a beer in the right place and time, but that was neither.


Why?

DukieInKansas
04-05-2010, 01:19 PM
Why?

Because he was supposed to be working?

greybeard
04-05-2010, 01:34 PM
During the Big East tournament last month he was walking around the streets outside Madison Square Garden with a large cup of beer. Not that any of us can't enjoy a beer in the right place and time, but that was neither.

I thought his consoling Butler in such physical closeness was weird and discomforting but also genuine. I have never doubted his concern for his players on a human level.

But there remains much I don't respect about him and his team's fan base.

Well done.

allenmurray
04-05-2010, 01:41 PM
Why?

Just a crazy thought, but . . . if I was a college basketball coach, who supposedly was supposed to represent my university, and I had already been convicted of a DUI, I might want to refran from drinking in public. (Remember the original poster said on the streets in front of MSG,not in a bar or restaurant or even in MSG, but on the streets, where it is not legal to have open containers of alcohol.) Sometimes respecting the image of your employer is important.

hurley1
04-05-2010, 07:06 PM
From following his career at a great distance, I've lumped Huggins in with Calipari as smart guys who abuse the system. Calipari does it with future NBA players, while Huggins has been somewhat less successful with less talented players. I have no doubt that both are good coaches and that Huggins, in particular, squeezes performance out of his players.

From watching him more closely in the last few weeks, he has struck me as entitled and paranoid. he consistently disparages other teams, though it can be subtle (eg, he says he's watched a lot of Duke tape and had never seen them play like that; it's a compliment, sort of, but it primarily implies that Duke happened to have a quirkily great night while they had a quirkily poor showing), and it can be seen through the boorish behavior of his 2008 team after they beat us.

The fact that he showed compassion for his injured star player doesn't change any of that--and notice that he didn't say afterward that Zoubs wasn't at fault. Those who circle the wagons against the outside (and that's also a K trait as well as one shared by lots of coaches) certainly bond with those inside the wagons.

And the fact that he was an academic all american when he played for wvu doesn't mean that he strongly encourages his own players to study.

He's not Hugs to me; he's still Thugs.

But Butler (both the player and the team) seem like class acts, and I wish them both well (especially the player; the team I'll wish well in about 27 hours).


amen to all of that........huggins had 22 players arrested while at cincinatti......he graduated very, very few........the build up to the west. va. game was nothing but promoting huggins and west va. at the attempted expense of duke.......it made me sick......even the award that deshawn butler won was a set up.......can you believe that cbs showed this kid going into the hospital to see an old woman that supposedly had a heart attack watching the west va. / kentucky game........i guess she went into cardiac arrest and died when she saw her little boy on the court with hugging all over him........that too was just theatre.......huggins is a creep and always will be.......a lepoard never changes his spots........the bitler team is someone to respect and admire.......they can't beat us, but, what a wonderful program stevens has put together up there.....they should be very proud regardless of what happens tonight.........

Welcome2DaSlopes
04-08-2010, 07:25 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/tournament/2010/news/story?id=5054764

greybeard
04-08-2010, 09:04 AM
Butler was starting to initiate the a similar type avoidance move as was pictured on a thread after the Balyor game, in which one of their bigs driving down the right lane jumped left and slightly back to try to avoid Zoubek but didn't and got a charge called on him. (Sorry, I have no idea about how to use links). Big difference, the kid from Baylor was gliding towards Z as he moved. Butler was driving.

The ACL keeps the tibia from moving forward relative to the tibia; it often is torn with nothing more occurring that a "pop" in the knee. When you see lots of pain, it is because of the lateral strain on the joint that a plant and cut, plant and jump laterally causes. That type of lateral"move" causes additional injury; it literally feels like your lower leg has moved outside the knee joint, in Butler's case it would have been to the right, stretching tissue, and then springs back.

I am no doctor, but I don't think that the lateral forces cause the ACL tear or the pain. I think that the lateral forces cause other damage to the joint, including small tears in muscle tissue which we call sprains, which can be quite painful, and meniscus tears, which also are painful.

Somce plants to move laterally are often quite abrupt, that is key to the move working, and come off a player who sets the move up with forward speed; the ACL tear I think happens on the initial stop of forward momentum, which again is very abrupt to be effective, and the other as the lateral movement simultaneously begins.

This type move is fool's gold. I built much of my game around them. So did Butler. You do not see the particular move Butler was trying too often anymore because, while it is terrific at avoiding the on ball defender, or the one who is waiting right in front of you, aka Zoubek, there is such length off the ball that the ball often gets swated out of the air. You see such cuts much more in soccer. They are death for young women. DEATH! They are still taught and utilized regularly by the best of players. Young women have anywhere from 8 to 11 times the incidence of ACL tears than young men, who themselves have way too many ACL tears in soccer and basketball for risk not to be taken into consideration when one develops playing styles.

Coaches one would think would have this on the very top of their lists, and protect their very best players from themselves. Regrettably, it is on none of their lists. In the world of club and high school soccer and basketball I doubt you will find a single coach who says to a kid, maybe you should not use that move because it is high-risk to your knee. Not one.

JohnGalt
04-08-2010, 09:21 AM
Coaches one would think would have this on the very top of their lists, and protect their very best players from themselves. Regrettably, it is on none of their lists. In the world of club and high school soccer and basketball I doubt you will find a single coach who says to a kid, maybe you should not use that move because it is high-risk to your knee. Not one.

I'm a firm believer in that the perceived escalation (if the escalation indeed exists) in knee injuries in the modern sports era is a function of increased strength training on the part of athletes. The desire to strengthen oneself through weight training has led to much stronger muscles without any change in the strength of one's ligaments or tendons. Since most knee injuries (mainly ACL) are non-contact injuries, the athlete is basically doing the damage to his or her own knee. The muscles surrounding the knee are too strong for the supporting tissue to support it and it just fails.

From my experience playing college sports, it would be a hard task having coaches ask players to remove jukes and other moves from their arsenal under the premise that "they might get hurt." Mentioning it might be nice, but it really wouldn't accomplish anything.

All this being said, Butler will be fine. He'll have a topnotch surgeon and athletic training team that - assuming he puts in the effort - will have his knee %110 7-8 months from now. These knee injuries have become so commonplace that surgery is pretty routine and results in an even stronger knee than the original. The MCL sprain depending on the severity might actually be more of a problem than the ACL tear.

Rudy
04-08-2010, 09:53 AM
The ACL keeps the tibia from moving forward relative to the tibia; it often is torn with nothing more occurring that a "pop" in the knee. When you see lots of pain, it is because of the lateral strain on the joint that a plant and cut, plant and jump laterally causes. That type of lateral"move" causes additional injury; it literally feels like your lower leg has moved outside the knee joint, in Butler's case it would have been to the right, stretching tissue, and then springs back.

That part you have right. My full ACL tear occurred in a tennis game when I hit an approach shot, moved toward the net and then planted my left foot hard and twisted to my right to reach a passing shot down the line. I felt the joint go out of socket and back in, accompanied by searing pain, nausea and a near-blackout.


I am no doctor, but I don't think that the lateral forces cause the ACL tear or the pain. I think that the lateral forces cause other damage to the joint, including small tears in muscle tissue which we call sprains, which can be quite painful, and meniscus tears, which also are painful.
I had no other significant structural tears, no meniscus or any other cartilage damage. The report on Butler similarly lacked any cartilage damage: "Sports information director Bryan Messerly said the MRI also revealed a sprain of the medial collateral ligament and two bone bruises." I didn't tear any cartilage until I foolishly tried to throw a baseball a couple of years later without my Donjoy brace. The original ACL tear was much, much more painful than the subsequent meniscus tear or any of the bad ankle sprains I had in h.s.


Somce plants to move laterally are often quite abrupt, that is key to the move working, and come off a player who sets the move up with forward speed; the ACL tear I think happens on the initial stop of forward momentum, which again is very abrupt to be effective, and the other as the lateral movement simultaneously begins.

This type move is fool's gold. I built much of my game around them. So did Butler. You do not see the particular move Butler was trying too often anymore because, while it is terrific at avoiding the on ball defender, or the one who is waiting right in front of you, aka Zoubek, there is such length off the ball that the ball often gets swated out of the air. You see such cuts much more in soccer. They are death for young women. DEATH! They are still taught and utilized regularly by the best of players. Young women have anywhere from 8 to 11 times the incidence of ACL tears than young men, who themselves have way too many ACL tears in soccer and basketball for risk not to be taken into consideration when one develops playing styles.

Coaches one would think would have this on the very top of their lists, and protect their very best players from themselves. Regrettably, it is on none of their lists. In the world of club and high school soccer and basketball I doubt you will find a single coach who says to a kid, maybe you should not use that move because it is high-risk to your knee. Not one.

I don't think coaching against a particular move will work, with men or women. There are just too many unpredictable situations where an athlete, defending or attacking in any sport, needs to change directions and speeds which will require planting a foot and twisting to one side.

You're right, too, that women have a much higher incidence of ACL tears, and these are all too common in soccer and basketball. As I understand, a higher emphasis on weight training for knees has helped reduce the rate in women. Higher developed musculature dealing with lateral moves may help prevent all the force of the move being placed only on the ligaments.

billy
04-08-2010, 12:38 PM
Coaches one would think would have this on the very top of their lists, and protect their very best players from themselves. Regrettably, it is on none of their lists. In the world of club and high school soccer and basketball I doubt you will find a single coach who says to a kid, maybe you should not use that move because it is high-risk to your knee. Not one.

A lot of coaches do have this on their radar. A lot of the research into preventing ACL tears began at UNC years ago (see http://www.iprc.unc.edu/research_sports.shtml) and continues there and elsewhere. Practically speaking, in Raleigh, the Capital Area Soccer Club has clinics for the coaches on ACL injury prevention and has recently hired an Athletic Trainer to work with the coaches and teams to help decrease the incidence of tears.

As far as the incidence of tears going up, the biggest factor felt to be causative by those of us in the ortho sports medicine world is simply exposure. The number of women playing soccer has increased with the number of men playing staying roughly the same (with an accompanying increase in the number of women getting injured). Children and teenagers now are also more likely to play year around; again, increased exposure. Obviously other factors are involved, as well. Here's a good link to an "authoritative" source on this issue: http://www.sportsmed.org/secure/reveal/admin/uploads/documents/ST%20ACL%20Injury%2008.pdf

DukeCrow
04-08-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm a firm believer in that the perceived escalation (if the escalation indeed exists) in knee injuries in the modern sports era is a function of increased strength training on the part of athletes. The desire to strengthen oneself through weight training has led to much stronger muscles without any change in the strength of one's ligaments or tendons. Since most knee injuries (mainly ACL) are non-contact injuries, the athlete is basically doing the damage to his or her own knee. The muscles surrounding the knee are too strong for the supporting tissue to support it and it just fails.

This doesn't seem correct. Stronger quad and hamstring muscles actually help to stabilize the knee joint. That's a huge part of rehab after ACL reconstruction (which I have been through).

greybeard
04-08-2010, 04:51 PM
I'm a firm believer in that the perceived escalation (if the escalation indeed exists) in knee injuries in the modern sports era is a function of increased strength training on the part of athletes. The desire to strengthen oneself through weight training has led to much stronger muscles without any change in the strength of one's ligaments or tendons. Since most knee injuries (mainly ACL) are non-contact injuries, the athlete is basically doing the damage to his or her own knee. The muscles surrounding the knee are too strong for the supporting tissue to support it and it just fails.

From my experience playing college sports, it would be a hard task having coaches ask players to remove jukes and other moves from their arsenal under the premise that "they might get hurt." Mentioning it might be nice, but it really wouldn't accomplish anything.

All this being said, Butler will be fine. He'll have a topnotch surgeon and athletic training team that - assuming he puts in the effort - will have his knee %110 7-8 months from now. These knee injuries have become so commonplace that surgery is pretty routine and results in an even stronger knee than the original. The MCL sprain depending on the severity might actually be more of a problem than the ACL tear.

I agree with the first part but not the second. The bench has a way of making people listen. Look, if you are soccer player, you can try to replicate Messi, or Ronaldo, or you can play the one-touch English game. The latter is oh so much safer especially for Americans who do not grow up playing a game on one foot, and have not a semblence of the ability possessed by most all players in the soccer playing world to habbitually organize their bodies to support the stupendous things that they routinely do.

As for basketball, to bring this very, very close to home, there was a decidedly different approach to defense this year. No wing overplays, no sitting in a crouch for 35 seconds, no darts into the passing lane, etc. There also were no foot injuries, not a single one, which is pretty freakin remarkable considering how many of those you guys have had since I've started paying attention.

And, I can tell you from personal experience, one can alter one's offensive game to reduce at risk behaviors while still maintaining great (literary license here) proficiency. Would Allen (on the Celtics, I block when on a roll) be a better player if he took it to the rim and made moves like Butler. Maybe. But odds on he would have been gone from the league long ago.

Did Jabbar add years to his career, eons, by opting for that Sky Hook WHENEVER it was available rather than taking it to the rim whenever that was available, aka Shaq. Who played better late into their respective careers?

Rip Hamilton is 180 lbs soaking wet, at least he looks like it. He has been around and proficient forever. He scores most of his points off a curl off elbow screens. When he penetrates the paint, it rarely is all the way to the rim; he has a diverse pull up game that saves his body and scores the ball.

How's it working out for Paul? What about Derick Williams? How much time have those dudes missed. You'd think that someone would say to them, how bout a little less mustard and less missed games, and, oh, by the way, we'll skew your contract to disincentivize the latter.

Butler would have been a very, very accomplished player without all the at-risk finishes that brought him such acclaim. He was foolish for going for the latter. It could well cost him untold millions. It will cost him a hip in his late 40s, early 50s and probably a knee too.

If people stop glorifying with oohs and aahs the "moves" that 10-15 year olds make, and by people I'm talking parents who attend these kids games, and coaches start being held accountable by leagues publishing injury numbers and describing them, the numbers will go down.

Two years ago a Bethesda women's soccer team was the odds on favorite to win the county championship and also the state if there was such a thing. Why? Most of their starters were on a club team that had either won or lost in the championship game a national championship playing for teams in the reknown Bethesda soccer club. The Post did a story on that team going into the tournament. It was sad. A number of torn ACL, several blown out ankles, several concussions that as of the writing had potentially life altering effects, all on one team. Don't tell me that there is no way. It is simply that there is no will by the adults who are responsible for this scandal.

greybeard
04-08-2010, 05:54 PM
That part you have right. My full ACL tear occurred in a tennis game when I hit an approach shot, moved toward the net and then planted my left foot hard and twisted to my right to reach a passing shot down the line. I felt the joint go out of socket and back in, accompanied by searing pain, nausea and a near-blackout..

I blew both my knees out between the ages of 16 and 17. The first, my right, I injured twice; ankle to hip cast the first time after traction straightened a locked knee; the second resulted in a surgery after traction didn't work.

The first injury did not hurt at all; I was trying to broad jump in gym and couldn't get up; knee wouldn't straighten. The second came in a basketball game, on a cross-over move. The pain was tremendous.

The next year I blew the good knee out making exactly the move Butler was about to execute. Much more painful than anything I ever experienced before or since.

I was at college and had my knee wrapped and did not even consider going through the ordeal of surgery. Over the years, I played tons of basketball and if I went off my bad leg in something other than a completely safe way (I was good at figuring things out) the dislocation experience recurred and it was always quite painful.

At different points, I felt a pop in each knee and went I finally had second knee scoped after it had popped and the swelling didn't recede, learned that I had blown my ACL. Had an MRI of my first knee and learned the ACL was gone in that one too.

So, just extrapolating from my own experience, the tearing of the ACL don't hurt; the wrenching of the knee and the damage to tissue that accompanies it does. However, perhaps when you shred the thing to bits, it is painful, very, whether it is caused in a twisting move or not..


I don't think coaching against a particular move will work, with men or women. There are just too many unpredictable situations where an athlete, defending or attacking in any sport, needs to change directions and speeds which will require planting a foot and twisting to one side.

I have already responded to this notion in response to another poster. No one is saying that one can eliminate all at-risk play from the way a high-end player plays. Just most of it. Look, you need to make a play to defend against a goal in soccer, unless it is a blow out (sorry), you react. On the other hand, my son played right back next to a sweeper who was a really, really smart kid, 14 year old, who was a converted striker. The kid would go after through balls with his back to the offense, instead of flipping it to Steven, turning and getting it back with tons of space, would pull one ankle breaking move to turn the ball and loose the defender and a second to beat the next guy, only as often as not, the move was so good and unexpected that the next guy would take my son's teammate's legs. The kid had at least four concussions in two seasons and ankle injuries galour. He ended up missing a season.

Go to any competitive club soccer game and you will see young men and women who dazzle like my son's teammate (who oh so was not a hot dog but simply was in the joy of his craft) and do so as a matter of course. That is their style of play. It is tremendously effective and everyone, especially parents, roundly RECOGNIZE those players as the BEST on the team, whether it is accurate or not.

In basketball, I'd say that at least half the ankle breaking moves are the product of carries, others put the offensive player in untenable positions but for the curious change in the rules that allow a one-two into a jump stop and an ensuing elevation for a pass or a shot, amounting to like 3 or 4 steps depending on how you count, all of it now perfectly within the rules.

You strickly enforce the carry rules, call a carry whenever a guard coming off a high screen takes that little glide step that seems like the beginning of a pull up for a jump shot because the player has his or her hand on the side of the ball for the two step slide, and there will be far less need for at risk behaviors in finishing at or near the rim or trying to defend players with an illegal advantage.

I could go on but the style of play I see in high school at the highest levels is devoid of play off the pivot, is weak in off ball screens that create catches with advantage for a jump shooting game, and depend, especially in the women's games I've watched, depend to a ridiculous degree with high speed finishes that would not happen in the numbers they do without the disregard of the rules just discussed.

Finally, both soccer and basketball coaches I suppose justify endorsement of at-risk play because defenses in both sports are allowed to defend in ways that are illegal under the rules as they are written. Exhibit 1, Purdue; Exhibit 2, West Virginia; exhibit 3, what passes for permissible low post defense but instead is legitimatized pushing and shoving. Just a coincidence that the two teams that play rough-house defense in ways that are downright ugly have two of their star offensive players who are subject to that stuff everyday in practice go down with ACL tears. And, oh, Butler's Howard, one over-the-line defender who as K put it almost "killed Kyle" with that body block, what was he doing on the court to begin with. The guy was all but knocked out cold in the previous game, his coach put him back in against Michigan St (that never can happen in the NFL), and he plays the next day and exhibits incredibly poor judgment that could have seriously hurt Singler. There IS something wrong with this picture and it is in my opinion fixable, and must be.

Players will adapt to the rules and the dictates of coaches. Fire travel coaches if they have a certain number of serious injuries in a year, make it mandatory, and the styles of play you see will change. Make certain at-risk plays illegal--there is no reason on this Earth that high school students need to be challenging for the ball in the air at mid field on long kicks, especially when defenders on some teams are taught how to physically intimidate by making the guy in front of them fear for their heads every time they go up for such a ball.

Will that change the game from the way the rest of the world plays it? Does the rest of the world play basketball under the same rules and on the same field of play that we do?

This is doable.


You're right, too, that women have a much higher incidence of ACL tears, and these are all too common in soccer and basketball. As I understand, a higher emphasis on weight training for knees has helped reduce the rate in women. Higher developed musculature dealing with lateral moves may help prevent all the force of the move being placed only on the ligaments

I know of this work and it saddens me no end. The numbers have been what they are for more than 10 years running. Why? You nailed it but not exactly. The people who are responsible for perpetrating this violence on young women are older women who are out to prove that in the physical world a women can do anything a man can and equally well. They are the fringe but also in the forefront of the women's movement and weild enoromous political power.

I am all for research to permit people to do what their bodies currently won't let them without seriously breaking down, if there really is a NEED to expend SCARCE resourses looking for a CURE for this medical issue. Personally, I think that the money would be better spent on breast cancer research but I'm not a political activist. HOWEVER, until that day comes when someone invents a way for young women to do this without tearing themselves apart, for heaven's sake, STOP HAVING THEM TRY TO PLAY LIKE MEN AND MAKE THE RULES OF THE GAMES THEY PLAY REQUIRE SAFE PLAY.

My daughter has played varsity soccer and lax for 3 years and is quite good, very, very talented. Strong and reasonably fast and she "gets" both games. She plays them safe, not because I have told her anything (if you think she'd listen you do not have a teenage daughter). I love women's lax. It has remained a game for women. The rules, not that I understand them, it's impossible to by watching, prevent anything approaching a defensive play that would require an offensive player to make a sharp move. The sticks have extremely shallow baskets that make cutting sharply almost a practical impossibility.

What you hear from most people is that women's lax "is a joke," or worse. They're idiots. Women's lax puts a primacy in well conceived dives to the goal, passing with touch instead of force, catching and controlling as an art form, and running like crazy. The ball cannot be thrown at ungodly and unsafe speeds, a Cornell guy got killed by getting hit in the chest with a thrown ball, WTF is that about. Players cannot be forced to make abrupt avoidance moves and have no incentive to try. The games are all about team work and terrifically athletic running, catching and passing. They call it a JOKE!

It's well past the time for research.

Please excuse the speechifying. This is and has been my issue for over 25 years, but much more so the worser the problem gets, which is much, much, much more worser than I could ever have imagined.

MChambers
04-09-2010, 08:02 AM
You're making me glad I stopped coaching girls recreational soccer after 7th grade. Pretty sure my daughter, who is now in 8th grade, won't make the 9th grade team next year, so that will be it.

I don't think there is a simple answer to the injury issue.

JohnGalt
04-09-2010, 08:22 AM
I agree with the first part but not the second. The bench has a way of making people listen. Look, if you are soccer player, you can try to replicate Messi, or Ronaldo, or you can play the one-touch English game. The latter is oh so much safer especially for Americans who do not grow up playing a game on one foot, and have not a semblence of the ability possessed by most all players in the soccer playing world to habbitually organize their bodies to support the stupendous things that they routinely do.



Then why have Messi and Ronaldo (I assume you mean Cristiano) not experienced severe knee injuries, but Joe Cole and Michael Owen have? I'm not sure it's as simple as the system you're playing in. Some people are just more prone to injury than others, another intangible in the ubiquitous game of Sport. (See Oden, Greg.) It's individual hardwiring.

Allen Iverson played as hard as anyone I've ever seen. Same thing goes for Warrick Dunn. Both were both undersized for their respective positions (according to contemporary 'experts'), but managed to escape severe injury. I understand these are more of the exceptions than the rule, but I think it's another indication that it's more individual than anything. Individuals are all constructed differently and over the course of a 10-20 year playing career, there are ways each person can mitigate his risk to injury, but not eliminate it.