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3rd Dukie
03-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Well, I know this will likely not be very popular, but here goes.

Am I the only one who is absolutely sick of the false deification of Jim Valvano?

Being apparently a friend of Coach K's, being a mediocre basketball coach and dying of cancer does not a hero make, IMHO. These are his major claims to fame, as far as I can tell. Yes, he won a national championship at The Pit in Albuquerque, NM in 1983. As a matter of fact, I was there and was pulling for him. I have never particularly disliked the man; I have just never regarded him as anyone special. As a matter of fact, he was under investigation for recruiting violations, as I recall, shortly before his death and was, as far as I can recall, always liked more for his personality than for his integrity. He was certainly never regarded as any coaching genius.

When he was alive, I always regarded him as somewhat of a sleazy guy. That did not change because he died. We will all die. That is no major accomplishment. My opinion of him was not elevated due to that achievement. There is no scarcity value or uniqueness inherent in dying.

His brother was on TV this week. Why? Would he have been an TV if he had not been Jim Valvano's brother? I doubt it. Why would he have been?

Is Valvano's family benefiting from this "Jimmy V Foundation"? If so, why should they be? He was not a great person in life. Therefore, why is he a great person in death? His death is no more, or less, important than anyone else's.

I realize how terribly politically incorrect my opinion is, and, apparently at a school like Duke these days, that is likely a capital offense, but this has been bothering me for a few years now.

Of course raising money to fight cancer, or any other disease for that matter, is a worthy cause. That is not the issue by any means. Maybe that is the only answer necessary. The lionization of a fraud like Jim Valvano is my only concern here. And I do think he was a fraud. We should not perpetuate that fraud.

wolfpackdevil
03-30-2010, 10:10 PM
Take this down.

moonpie23
03-30-2010, 10:12 PM
sorry you made a wrong turn...


www.packpride.com

there, that should help you out.....

try that in your iphone...

Newton_14
03-30-2010, 10:13 PM
You are right. Your opinion on this is not popular. At least not with me. And why you felt the need to hate on a dead guy that is not here to defend himself, whom many liked, including our own Coach K is beyond me.

3rd Dukie
03-30-2010, 10:16 PM
You are right. Your opinion on this is not popular. At least not with me. And why you felt the need to hate on a dead guy that is not here to defend himself, whom many liked, including our own Coach K is beyond me.

Saying I do not agree with his deification is hardly hate.

YourLandlord
03-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Controversy
In 1990, accusations of rules violations surfaced in the book Personal Fouls by Peter Golenbock. These accusations centered mostly around high school All-American Chris Washburn. A 1989 NCAA investigation cleared Valvano, but found that players sold shoes and game tickets. As a result, NC State placed its basketball program on probation for two years (the maximum) and was banned from participating in the 1990 NCAA tournament. The state-appointed Poole Commission issued a 32-page report that concluded that there were no major violations of NCAA regulations, and that Valvano and his staff's inadequate oversight of players' academic progress violated "the spirit, not the letter of the law." After this report, Valvano was forced to resign as the school's athletic director in October 1989. He remained as basketball coach through the 1989–1990 season. Under subsequent pressure from the school's faculty and new Chancellor, Valvano negotiated a settlement with NC State and resigned as basketball coach on April 7, 1990. Six separate entities investigated Valvano and the NC State basketball program including the NC State Faculty Senate, the North Carolina Attorney General, the University of North Carolina Board of Governors, the NC State Board of Trustees, and the NCAA. None of them found any recruiting or financial improprieties.
Valvano's version of these events can be found in his 1991 autobiography, Valvano: They Gave Me a Lifetime Contract, and Then They Declared Me Dead.

worth noting.

3rd Dukie
03-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Take this down.

Why??
I thought this was a forum to discuss things.
Tell me why I am wrong.

3rd Dukie
03-30-2010, 10:19 PM
worth noting.

Very worthwhile.
Thank you for responding in a rational manner.
Hey, I am asking a question.

Mudge
03-30-2010, 10:20 PM
Well, I know this will likely not be very popular, but here goes.

Am I the only one who is absolutely sick of the false deification of Jim Valvano?

Being apparently a friend of Coach K's, being a mediocre basketball coach and dying of cancer does not a hero make, IMHO. These are his major claims to fame, as far as I can tell. Yes, he won a national championship at The Pit in Albuquerque, NM in 1983. As a matter of fact, I was there and was pulling for him. I have never particularly disliked the man; I have just never regarded him as anyone special. As a matter of fact, he was under investigation for recruiting violations, as I recall, shortly before his death and was, as far as I can recall, always liked more for his personality than for his integrity. He was certainly never regarded as any coaching genius.

When he was alive, I always regarded him as somewhat of a sleazy guy. That did not change because he died. We will all die. That is no major accomplishment. My opinion of him was not elevated due to that achievement. There is no scarcity value or uniqueness inherent in dying.

His brother was on TV this week. Why? Would he have been an TV if he had not been Jim Valvano's brother? I doubt it. Why would he have been?

Is Valvano's family benefiting from this "Jimmy V Foundation"? If so, why should they be? He was not a great person in life. Therefore, why is he a great person in death? His death is no more, or less, important than anyone else's.

I realize how terribly politically incorrect my opinion is, and, apparently at a school like Duke these days, that is likely a capital offense, but this has been bothering me for a few years now.

Of course raising money to fight cancer, or any other disease for that matter, is a worthy cause. That is not the issue by any means. Maybe that is the only answer necessary. The lionization of a fraud like Jim Valvano is my only concern here. And I do think he was a fraud. We should not perpetuate that fraud.

Agree with everything you said 100%-- could not agree more-- Valvano was a less ethical version of Pete Gillen-- only with a slower, less crowd pleasing style of play.

Yes, he was funny and congenial-- but he was a slightly above average coach who caught lightning in a bottle once... and recruited all kinds of bad actors to do it... there wasn't a hair's difference between him and Bob Huggins ethically.

jimsumner
03-30-2010, 10:20 PM
Well, I hope you feel better.

The idea that Jim Valvano is deified simply because he died is nonsense. Everyone dies but very few die in public, of a cruel and remorseless disease, with dignity and courage and honor. I'm sorry you can't recognize the distinction.

And I am unaware of anyone associated with college basketball who thought of Valvano as sleazy. He was a bright, engaging, articulate, complicated man. After winning the 1983 title, he came to think of himself as something more than a basketball coach and overextended himself. He brought in some marginal students, all of whom were being recruited by numerous other schools.

And yes, he was a pretty good coach. And the V Foundation does good work in a worthy cause.

And Bob Valvano knows what he's doing. He knew what he was doing before his brother died.

People won't disagree with your opinion because of any PC concerns. They'll disagree because it seems mean-spirited, poorly researched and argued, and irrelevant to the focus of this board.

DukeGirl4ever
03-30-2010, 10:20 PM
Of course raising money to fight cancer, or any other disease for that matter, is a worthy cause. That is not the issue by any means.

I wish there was more people like him trying to raise money for cancer research. Maybe my Grandfather would still be alive.

He could have been the worst coach in the world, but that means absolutely nothing to me when it comes to life or death.

I look at his battle with cancer and know that nothing he ever did as a coach was more inspiring than that.

You're right, not a favored post by someone who just lost their "Pappy" to lung cancer and has an aunt who is on her "death bed" with breast cancer.

DevilHorns
03-30-2010, 10:21 PM
His brother was on TV this week. Why? Would he have been an TV if he had not been Jim Valvano's brother? I doubt it. Why would he have been?

Is Valvano's family benefiting from this "Jimmy V Foundation"? If so, why should they be? He was not a great person in life. Therefore, why is he a great person in death? His death is no more, or less, important than anyone else's.


I was too young to watch Jimmy V coach, and to be honest, the only time I have seen him talk is on that incredible ESPY speech he gave the year he died (if anybody hasnt seen it, Youtube it). One thing that he does say in that speech is that he was a dear friend of K's, and for me, thats enough.

A few things.... I didn't see Jimmy V's brother on tv, but I'm guessing he was on TV for one cause and one cause only, to support the Jimmy V foundation. I doubt he was on tv for any other reason. I'm sure none of the Valvano family is trying to abuse the death of Jimmy V to perpetuate their own fame or their own bank account. Its a pretty terrible insinuation to be honest.

3rd Dukie
03-30-2010, 10:26 PM
I wish there was more people like him trying to raise money for cancer research. Maybe my Grandfather would still be alive.

He could have been the worst coach in the world, but that means absolutely nothing to me when it comes to life or death.

I look at his battle with cancer and know that nothing he ever did as a coach was more inspiring than that.

You're right, not a favored post by someone who just lost their "Pappy" to lung cancer and has an aunt who is on her "death bed" with breast cancer.

I agree with everything you said. As a matter of fact, I do volunteer work to raise money to combat cancer myself.
If my post offended you, or caused you pain in any way, I can only hope you will accept my most sincere apologies, as well as my condolences for your loss. Causing that pain was in no way my objective.
My father and brother both died from cancer. As I said, combating cancer was in no way the issue.

dukelifer
03-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Well, I know this will likely not be very popular, but here goes.

Am I the only one who is absolutely sick of the false deification of Jim Valvano?

Being apparently a friend of Coach K's, being a mediocre basketball coach and dying of cancer does not a hero make, IMHO. These are his major claims to fame, as far as I can tell. Yes, he won a national championship at The Pit in Albuquerque, NM in 1983. As a matter of fact, I was there and was pulling for him. I have never particularly disliked the man; I have just never regarded him as anyone special. As a matter of fact, he was under investigation for recruiting violations, as I recall, shortly before his death and was, as far as I can recall, always liked more for his personality than for his integrity. He was certainly never regarded as any coaching genius.

When he was alive, I always regarded him as somewhat of a sleazy guy. That did not change because he died. We will all die. That is no major accomplishment. My opinion of him was not elevated due to that achievement. There is no scarcity value or uniqueness inherent in dying.

His brother was on TV this week. Why? Would he have been an TV if he had not been Jim Valvano's brother? I doubt it. Why would he have been?

Is Valvano's family benefiting from this "Jimmy V Foundation"? If so, why should they be? He was not a great person in life. Therefore, why is he a great person in death? His death is no more, or less, important than anyone else's.

I realize how terribly politically incorrect my opinion is, and, apparently at a school like Duke these days, that is likely a capital offense, but this has been bothering me for a few years now.

Of course raising money to fight cancer, or any other disease for that matter, is a worthy cause. That is not the issue by any means. Maybe that is the only answer necessary. The lionization of a fraud like Jim Valvano is my only concern here. And I do think he was a fraud. We should not perpetuate that fraud.

I am not exactly sure why all the anger. Valvano was a colorful coach - a pretty good game coach- and did win a NC- which in the scheme of things is not an easy accomplishment- particularly if you consider the team he had and the team he went against. Is he the only guy who died of Cancer or gave a good speech- certainly not- but his ESPY speech did strike a chord in many who heard it- that was not manufactured. It was a real moment. Without that moment- I doubt there would be much more that would have followed. But something happened that night that was wholly unexpected and human and for all his issues- Valvano rose above it all. That night made everything else happen. I doubt anyone has truly deified Valvano- or really thinks much more about him than the image of him running around looking for someone to hug and a guy who one night said something that inspired people to give to Cancer research. If that his is lasting legacy- that is not bad- even if he was not perfect. Frankly, no one is.

dukemsu
03-30-2010, 10:29 PM
Personal Fouls, but also remember reading that most of it was disputed in terms of its accuracy.

I'm not sure how it all ended up. But I figure if K speaks that highly of someone, they have to be all right.

dukemsu

greybeard
03-30-2010, 10:30 PM
Jim also straight up lied to Jim Ruland when he recruited him to Iona and then left him there to go to State after promising he'd stay. Ruland, I think, never forgave him. Jim's father was a larger than life high school coach at Seaford High School on the South Shore of LI. I remember seeing Jim play when I was a freshman. Strutted all over the court before the game, checking out the pretty babes and flirting with them. We killed them and we weren't much.

Bob, his brother, coached in DC and covered games on the radio or TV. I think he is great at that, in much the same Jim and their old man were. Funny, great articulations of affection, loyalty and irrelverance at the same time. They all had very refreshing ways of talking about, conceptualizing about, the game, that I found captivating.

Jim's courage and humor and wisdom in publicly living fully until he died make him a hero in my book. Warts and all, he lived life openly and fully when he wasn't hustling someone. "The elements were so mixed in him that all the world might say 'this was a man.'" Mark Antoni about Brutus.

DevilHorns
03-30-2010, 10:31 PM
I am not exactly sure why all the anger. Valvano was a colorful coach - a pretty good game coach- and did win a NC- which in the scheme of things is not an easy accomplishment- particularly if you consider the team he had and the team he went against. Is he the only guy who died of Cancer or gave a good speech- certainly not- but his ESPY speech did strike a chord in many who heard it- that was not manufactured. It was a real moment. Without that moment- I doubt there would be much more that would have followed. But something happened that night that was wholly unexpected and human and for all his issues- Valvano rose above it all. That night made everything else happen. I doubt anyone has truly deified Valvano- or really thinks much more about him than the image of him running around looking for someone to hug and a guy who one night said something that inspired people to give to Cancer research. If that his is lasting legacy- that is not bad- even if he was not perfect. Frankly, no one is.

What a great post!

DukeGirl4ever
03-30-2010, 10:33 PM
I agree with everything you said. As a matter of fact, I do volunteer work to raise money to combat cancer myself.
If my post offended you, or caused you pain in any way, I can only hope you will accept my most sincere apologies, as well as my condolences for your loss. Causing that pain was in no way my objective.
My father and brother both died from cancer. As I said, combating cancer was in no way the issue.

I know your post wasn't meant that way, but it did hit pretty hard.

I look at it this way, basketball, in my eyes, is the greatest thing ever invented. It has given me so many things in life and made me who I am today. BUT, it's just a game. No matter what Jimmy V did on the court that could be seen as negative, I could care less. He fought for a way to save lives. That outweighs everything else.

Sorry if I took the cancer part out of your post b/c I know that's not the direction you were going. But you can't look at that man's name and ignore that either.

Thanks for responding.

BD80
03-30-2010, 10:37 PM
It is what he did in the short period AFTER he was diagnosed with cancer for which he is so fondly remembered.

If he was such a lousy coach, there must be MANY other ACC coaches who won National Championships. Other than K, deano, ol' roy and Gary, we have ...

In the 20 years he was a head coach, there were only 13 coaches who won national championships (and K was not one of them!). So he was one of 13!

What is there to discuss? We aren't allowed to express our opinions of how ludicrous the original post is.

Verga3
03-30-2010, 10:38 PM
Well, I hope you feel better.

The idea that Jim Valvano is deified simply because he died is nonsense. Everyone dies but very few die in public, of a cruel and remorseless disease, with dignity and courage and honor. I'm sorry you can't recognize the distinction.

And I am unaware of anyone associated with college basketball who thought of Valvano as sleazy. He was a bright, engaging, articulate, complicated man. After winning the 1983 title, he came to think of himself as something more than a basketball coach and overextended himself. He brought in some marginal students, all of whom were being recruited by numerous other schools.

And yes, he was a pretty good coach. And the V Foundation does good work in a worthy cause.

And Bob Valvano knows what he's doing. He knew what he was doing before his brother died.

People won't disagree with your opinion because of any PC concerns. They'll disagree because it seems mean-spirited, poorly researched and argued, and irrelevant to the focus of this board.

Amen, Jim!

A reckless, unsubstantiated and inflammatory post such as this is not in the spirit or decorum of this great board. How distasteful some of our posts have become.

Don't know where it's coming from, but maybe a conversation with Coach K could enlighten. He knew the man. We didn't.

DukeDevilDeb
03-30-2010, 10:38 PM
Coach K did not become as close to Valvano as we might have thought until he was diagnosed with cancer. Then Coach spent a great deal of time at the hospital, the place where they really bonded.

I remember the moment the news of Valvano's death came over the radio, and the DJ asked everyone in the Triangle area to turn their car lights on in memory of Jimmy V. I turned mine on, as did everyone around me.

Why? It wasn't because he was a great coach, although it was always fun to play his teams at State. It wasn't because he was a great role model for student-athletes. It wasn't because of any of the things any of you have listed here.

It was because he was a human being devastated by a disease that had absolutely no treatment. I turned on the television the night of his famous Espy speech totally by accident and was fortunate enough to hear one of the most moving testimonials to hope and courage I will ever hear. His "Don't give up, don't EVER give up" still rings in my ears and my heart. Valvano didn't give up in his fight against cancer, and his wife and children and friends like Coach K aren't giving up either.

I do not deify Jimmy V, and I don't think anyone else does either. I do recognize that he was a relatively young man, a highly visible man, who took the position that talking about his cancer might do others some good. His spirit was potent and, when it left his body, we remembered a man who was human, who had done some things perhaps incorrectly, but who displayed a heart as big as the universe as he was dying.

Seems to me that his "death with dignity" was more than enough reason to pay him the respect he deserves.