WBB Region Final: Baylor 51, Duke 48

[pfrduke]

Ok, I have to ask....

am I the only one who thinks Griner sounds like a man???

[DU82]

Wanted to get a thread started on THIS Duke-Baylor match-up.

Can our ladies find a way to take it to Brittany Griner and win? Can our defense stay strong?

I know we've been winning ugly, and many worry about our offense, but lately other than against Sylvia's "evil polyester football players" (tm) :rolleyes: I think we've won in the second half by wearing down the other team. Being in much better shape than the other team allows up to make plays late. SDSU and LSU were clearly running on empty late in the game, and Saturday it wasn't suddenly because SDSU got jet lag like the announcers thought.

Let's make it two for two for Four!

Edit: pfrduke and I obviously think alike. Please go ahead and merge in with the other thread.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Let's beat baylor twice in two days. GO DUKE

[ivydevil]

Let's beat baylor twice in two days. GO DUKE

I wonder if Baylor would then develop a deep hatred of Duke that would not be forgotten for centuries to come.

[pfrduke]

Ok, I have to ask....

am I the only one who thinks Griner sounds like a man???

Seriously, watching sportscenter right now, and Griner has a deeper voice than Tyler Hansbrough.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ok, I have to ask....

am I the only one who thinks Griner sounds like a man???
Sounds and looks.

[HowBoutDemDevils]

The Baylor men were EXTREMELY classy in the way they handled the loss. Let's hope the Baylor women get the chance to put on the same display :)

[aimo]

Sounds and looks.

Very similar to the Semenya situation in South Africa. Except Griner has had to have regular physicals to play basketball growing up, so her parents can't possibly plead ignorance if something does come to light.

[CameronBornAndBred]

That building is a ghost town!

[DevilHorns]

This is the most biased towards a single player I have ever seen in the history of watching sports. Literally non-stop. Please, please, talk about something else besides Griner.

[30scheyer]

ok the duke women have gotten over their brittany shock and now trail just 20-21.....does anyone else think the baylor coach is wearing capt. crunch's dress blues?

[YourLandlord]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lRcqvowUNrM/SfCi9EhMUJI/AAAAAAAABXo/yyFTqT4JCu4/s320/juwanna.jpg

http://images.contactmusic.com/images/reviews/juwannamann.jpg

[DevilHorns]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lRcqvowUNrM/SfCi9EhMUJI/AAAAAAAABXo/yyFTqT4JCu4/s320/juwanna.jpg

http://images.contactmusic.com/images/reviews/juwannamann.jpg

LOL!

[Devil Lab]

This is the most biased towards a single player I have ever seen in the history of watching sports. Literally non-stop. Please, please, talk about something else besides Griner.

My thoughts exactly. At least half of the commentary in the first half was gushing about how wonderful Griner is. I'm not sure if the announcers even noticed that Duke was leading at half. If I were the other Baylor players I wouldn't be all that happy. You'd think, listening to these clowns, that Duke is playing 5 on 1.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I wonder if Baylor would then develop a deep hatred of Duke that would not be forgotten for centuries to come.

Well, Florida beat Ohio St. in the Ncaab championship and the Ncaaf championship in the same year. That must have been really hard for them.

[DevilHorns]

Women with 11 offensive boards so far. A tale of two Duke teams :)

[HowBoutDemDevils]

Would u look at that? offensive rebounding keeping Duke in it. Theme of the year.

[FireOgilvie]

Women's basketball is totally unwatchable for me most of the time, but watching Griner dominate people makes it interesting.

[Devil Lab]

Pretty nasty of Krystal Thomas..... fouling Griner's elbow with her face.

[Devil Lab]

Kim Mulkey remnds me of a young Sylvia Hatchell, including the sanppy wardrobe.

[DevilHorns]

stop talking about Griner! Every little comment has a slant for Griner. Oh that awesome clutch 3 wouldnt have happened if Griner did that, oh but Griner has been on the court all but 40 seconds, omg omg omg

[HowBoutDemDevils]

"no worrying about the ball getting stuck around the rim with brittney griner around"...they should worry about losing though that hasn't come up yet in the commentary

[Devil Lab]

The only thing about Griner they haven't said all night is any mention of the cheap shot she took at that player a few weeks ago. They act like she's the most wonderful payer in the world, but that was one of the cheapest shots I've seen in a long time. A perfect time to mention it would have been when she threw the elbow into Krystal's face.

[HowBoutDemDevils]

explain to me how you have the second coming of Bill Russell playing center and you get outrebounded by double digits

[juise]

This is getting much closer than it needs to be. Come on, Duke!

[BlueintheFace]

Yikes... quite a gag in process.

[Duvall]

What a choke. Sheesh.

[basket1544]

Oh why didn't they foul Griner instead of Jones?

[DevilHorns]

Come on need a clutch 3.

[DevilHorns]

ITS A TRavel! my god espn announcers, no way is it a foul.

[BlueintheFace]

Missed call there, but Duke gets the ball anyways.

This would be really sad if the ladies choke away this game.

[Inonehand]

What a choke. Sheesh.

Rode Jasmine to this point in the season. Tonight she didn't have it. Last few possessions were miserable. I have to say, Coach P had a good gameplan and they did a good job running it. Bad shooting by your best player was the difference in this one.

[HowBoutDemDevils]

wow.

[DevilHorns]

Oh well, Good luck against UCONN, Baylor will definitely need it.

[summerwind03]

Aww, that's disappointing. They really had it. Darn.

Great season ladies.

[Duvall]

Scoreless for the last 3:47.

You can't win if you can't score.

[muzikfrk75]

Oh well, time to watch 24.

[Duvall]

Rode Jasmine to this point in the season. Tonight she didn't have it. Last few possessions were miserable. I have to say, Coach P had a good gameplan and they did a good job running it. Bad shooting by your best player was the difference in this one.

A better gameplan would have had a Plan B on offense.

And by better, I mean adequate.

[mapei]

Horrible shot selection down the stretch - jacking up 3s with a 5-9-pt lead and 20 seconds on the shot clock. And horrible free throw shooting. Baylor was very beatable.

[Duvall]

I would have been nice if one of half dozen or so timeouts late had led to something resembling a set play.

[stillcrazie]

What about a little clock management in the last three minutes? Instead of pulling the ball out and running off some time with a five point lead, we take quick, bad shots on three separate possessions? I don't get it.

[Devil Lab]

Good season, but 23% from the floor doesn't get it done. Very tough loss. The good news is we have a good core coming back and the number one recruiting class in the country coming in. Hopefully at least a few of them will be shooters.

[ChrisP]

Major, major CHOKE job! Sorry, I know that's harsh but there is NO way the women should have lost that game. What in the he** was Thomas thinking jacking up that LOOONG 3 when we had the LEAD and plenty of time on the shot clock? Then there was another "shot" she took in the lane where she basically just flung it in the general direction of the rim. What in the WORLD was she thinking? They deserved to lose with that awful decision making in the last 5 minutes.

[Duvall]

Hopefully at least a few of them will be shooters.

I doubt it will make much difference.

[FireOgilvie]

I thought McCallie was supposed to be a good tournament coach.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

This Duke team can't shoot. It appears that shooters are arriving next year

[stillcrazie]

We definitely have some shooters coming in. But why is Joy Cheek jacking up threes in the last minute? This is the worst loss since losing to MD in the finals -- totally unnecessary if we'd had a little poise and a game plan. Even the Baylor coach just said she didn't know how they won this game. You didn't -- we basically gave it to you.

[Duvall]

I thought McCallie was supposed to be a good tournament coach.

What gave you that idea?

[Devil Lab]

I doubt it will make much difference.

It will. They're very close.

[Vincetaylor]

I rarely tune in to women's bball, but after watching that game I really have zero interest in watching it ever again. The end of that game was terrible.

[Devil Lab]

What gave you that idea?

Hmmmmmm...... and how has Texas been doing lately?

[FireOgilvie]

What gave you that idea?

I thought that was the draw. She had the reputation for being average at recruiting and basically overachieving with her teams. She made the Final Four at MSU... obviously reputations don't really mean anything.

[Cheshire Bear.]

Congrats on a great season, Duke. Evened it up in hoops this year. We'll attempt to finish the job and you guys better do it on the men's side of things.

[Duvall]

I thought that was the draw. She had the reputation for being average at recruiting and basically overachieving with her teams. She made the Final Four at MSU... obviously reputations don't really mean anything.

A lot of coaches have made Final Fours.

[stillcrazie]

I really enjoyed this team this year. Hate to see it end this way. I wonder if there's any way Coach P works on her game management skills at the end of games before next season. Until the last 3 minutes, this team looked like they believed they were going to win. AND THEY SHOULD HAVE.

Thanks for listening.

[Duvall]

Congrats on a great season, Duke. Evened it up in hoops this year. We'll attempt to finish the job and you guys better do it on the men's side of things.

Congratulations to Baylor. Good luck against UConn.

[Jim3k]

This loss belongs to McCallie -- who apparently has never taught the team how to make a throw-in against a press. There must be thirty different plays that would have worked. Failing to run the baseline on those occasions was a mental mistake, but there seemed to be no plan to deal with the press.

Yeah, the players messed up in a number of ways at the end, too. But end of game management is a McCallie shortcoming -- big time.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but does this loss really matter? They had a great season, but what would one more win have done for them (Ok, yes, Final Four is a great honor)? Waiting in the wings will be UCONN. No one has a fighting chance against them except Stanford.

Everyone wants to blame McCallie, but you should have seen the looks she was giving Thomas after the poor clock management. I'm sure that wasn't the game plan; players need to execute. Also, this team has no shooters at all. You can't blame a poor shooting percentage on this loss because they have won games shooting just as poorly. Shot selection was the key...and I think we should have fouled Griner on the play where she put them up one. Make her go to the line and earn it....she was 3 of 8 (I think at one point).

This year wasn't going to be the year....next year we have at least a fighting chance.

Congrats Lady Devils on a great season - I think you overachieved this year, given the personnel!

[DukeGirl4ever]

This loss belongs to McCallie -- who apparently has never taught the team how to make a throw-in against a press.

Ball players should know to protect the ball when there is a press.Thomas HAD to know they were coming but she was lazy with the ball.

I think she is a great player but she made some key mistakes. She will learn from them and I think she will grow tremendously as a player.

[DevilHorns]

I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but does this loss really matter?

Of course it matters! Its a final four! You are right that UCONN will be an overwhelmingly overwhelmingly overwhelming favorite against anybody they play. Its not even close. Its not even plausible that they will lose unless all 5 of their starters come down with some contagious viral enteritis and are stuck in the restroom. Its absurd how much better they are compared to everyone else. Anyone watch UCONN v Duke in Cameron?

But, it would have been definitely great to have a chance against UCONN and show more fight, and obviously it would be great for the experience.

[Devil Lab]

Sorry, but I'm not willing to hang Coach P for this. Could they have done a better job at the end of the game? Absolutely! Was this the best coaching job in the history of basketball? No. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened? No. It does happen. In fact, it happend to Coach G a few times.

On the other hand, one of the things we did really well for most of this season was put folks away at the end of games. We just didn't get it done tonight. This was a very tough loss, and the team and the coaches will think about it for a long time, but I'm not willing to suddenly be all doom and gloom over this loss. It was still a heck of a season.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Of course it matters! Its a final four! You are right that UCONN will be an overwhelmingly overwhelmingly overwhelming favorite against anybody they play. Its not even close. Its not even plausible that they will lose unless all 5 of their starters come down with some contagious viral enteritis and are stuck in the restroom. Its absurd how much better they are compared to everyone else. Anyone watch UCONN v Duke in Cameron?

But, it would have been definitely great to have a chance against UCONN and show more fight, and obviously it would be great for the experience.

I watched that game, and while I thought we didn't back down and we played decent against them, they still hammered the crap out of us.

And yes, I do know it matters...I would have loved for the girls to make it to the FF...I was trying to come up with a better way to word my question and couldn't come up with anything. This UCONN team is just unstoppable. I know we would have liked another shot at them...I guess the point I was trying to make was that I think we would have ended up with the same result next weekend.

I'm such a pessimist. And I hope no one takes my comment as being a smart I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

[roywhite]

Not a good performance tonight down the stretch, but a very good season and the future looks bright with the talent coming in.

Chelsea Gray is an incoming player who could challenge for playing time right away in the backcourt. The offense has got to improve.

[stillcrazie]

Sorry, but I'm not willing to hang Coach P for this. Could they have done a better job at the end of the game? Absolutely! Was this the best coaching job in the history of basketball? No. Is this the first time something like this has ever happened? No. It does happen. In fact, it happend to Coach G a few times.

On the other hand, one of the things we did really well for most of this season was put folks away at the end of games. We just didn't get it done tonight. This was a very tough loss, and the team and the coaches will think about it for a long time, but I'm not willing to suddenly be all doom and gloom over this loss. It was still a heck of a season.

The fact that it happened to Coach G makes this harder for me, not easier. The fact that we usually put teams away at the end makes this harder, not easier. Getting beaten by UConn in the Final Four would not have tasted as bitter as losing to a team we were beating for most of the game. Then I could have said more easily, "It was a heck of a season."

[calltheobvious]

I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but does this loss really matter? They had a great season, but what would one more win have done for them (Ok, yes, Final Four is a great honor)? Waiting in the wings will be UCONN. No one has a fighting chance against them except Stanford.
<snip>

I don't think it comes off "wrong" in the sense in which you're asking the question, I just disagree with your conclusion. Making the Final Four is a really big deal. It's an even bigger deal when getting there would have meant not choking away a 10-pt lead in which you go scoreless in the last 3+ minutes.

Neither Duke nor Baylor was thinking about UConn tonight. They were thinking about making their seasons. That the winner was likely to lose the next one doesn't matter. Make no mistake, this was a devastating loss for the Duke program. Sure, there's a great recruiting class joining a talented returning base. But do you know what they'll all have in common beyond their jerseys? Huge, possibly insurmountable doubts about their coach's ability to do close the deal.

This was not the men's collapse against Kentucky in 1998. Sure, our guys made some mistakes down the stretch, but Kentucky snatched that game away from Duke. Tonight, Duke took a gift-wrapped trip to the Final Four and politely placed it at the feet of the Baylor team. Yeah, I think that's a really big deal.
-----------------------------------------------
Okay, I read your clarification. Thanks for adding that.

[dukelifer]

This loss belongs to McCallie -- who apparently has never taught the team how to make a throw-in against a press. There must be thirty different plays that would have worked. Failing to run the baseline on those occasions was a mental mistake, but there seemed to be no plan to deal with the press.

Yeah, the players messed up in a number of ways at the end, too. But end of game management is a McCallie shortcoming -- big time.

Don't buy it. The players did not execute and made poor decisions. They missed a lot of open shots. If they made them they win. The steal under the basket was a mental error on Thomas. Not a great end of game- and it cost them. Almost the opposite of what happened to the men.

[bird]

You don't, don't, don't pass the ball under your own basket against the press.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I don't think it comes off "wrong" in the sense in which you're asking the question, I just disagree with your conclusion. Making the Final Four is a really big deal. It's an even bigger deal when getting there would have meant not choking away a 10-pt lead in which you go scoreless in the last 3+ minutes.

Neither Duke nor Baylor was thinking about UConn tonight. They were thinking about making their seasons. That the winner was likely to lose the next one doesn't matter. Make no mistake, this was a devastating loss for the Duke program. Sure, there's a great recruiting class joining a talented returning base. But do you know what they'll all have in common beyond their jerseys? Huge, possibly insurmountable doubts about their coach's ability to do close the deal.

This was not the men's collapse against Kentucky in 1998. Sure, our guys made some mistakes down the stretch, but Kentucky snatched that game away from Duke. Tonight, Duke took a gift-wrapped trip to the Final Four and politely placed it at the feet of the Baylor team. Yeah, I think that's a really big deal.

Excellent points! I agree with all of them, and I was hoping that "wrong' question would lead to some discussion.

I know this is a devastating loss right now. Heck I thought we had it in the bag. But, is it possible that it will make this team hungrier next year? I know we are living in the moment and would have liked to win this game, but I think that's what my comment was about UCONN as well.

I look at the men's team and think that loss to NOVA last year, while not a close game we lost at the end, was devastating nonetheless. I also think it helped shape this year's team and made these guys fight even harder to make it to the FF. Maybe the same will be true for the women. If anything, it exposed weaknesses that some of the gals will ponder over for a long time in the off season.

[stillcrazie]

Make no mistake, this was a devastating loss for the Duke program. Sure, there's a great recruiting class joining a talented returning base. But do you know what they'll all have in common beyond their jerseys? Huge, possibly insurmountable doubts about their coach's ability to do close the deal.

Tonight, Duke took a gift-wrapped trip to the Final Four and politely placed it at the feet of the Baylor team. Yeah, I think that's a really big deal.

Thanks for calling the obvious (no sarcasm!). I only hope you are wrong about doubts re: the coach.

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

Duke had this game in the bag. But think about the loss last year to MSU and the loss to Baylor this year:

Last year at MSU, the game was tied under the 4 minute mark. Duke scored 2 points the rest of the way, while MSU closed the game on a 16-2 run.

This year, Duke had an 8 point lead at the 5 minute mark, but only scored 2 points the rest of the game. Baylor closed the game on a 13-2 run.

Duke simply doesn't execute offensively in crunch time.

Also of note, Baylor and Duke had the common opponents of Texas A&M and Boston College. Baylor went 3-0, beating BC 68-55 and Texas A&M 61-53 & 65-63. Duke went 0-2, losing to Texas A&M 77-95 and BC 57-61.

[Saratoga2]

With a 9 point lead and a few minutes left, Duke just didn't seem to be able to have a consistent approach to finishing the game. TO's, bad shot selection, etc. It makes you wonder with so much talent, why there was a breakdown at the end. The coach needs to look at her approach for future improvement.

You do have to give Baylor credit, they took advantage of poor play by Duke down the stretch.

[Duvall]

Don't buy it. The players did not execute

Execute what?

Duke frequently plays like this. Most opponents just aren't good enough to make them pay for it.

[zingit]

Excellent points! I agree with all of them, and I was hoping that "wrong' question would lead to some discussion.

I know this is a devastating loss right now. Heck I thought we had it in the bag. But, is it possible that it will make this team hungrier next year? I know we are living in the moment and would have liked to win this game, but I think that's what my comment was about UCONN as well.

I look at the men's team and think that loss to NOVA last year, while not a close game we lost at the end, was devastating nonetheless. I also think it helped shape this year's team and made these guys fight even harder to make it to the FF. Maybe the same will be true for the women. If anything, it exposed weaknesses that some of the gals will ponder over for a long time in the off season.

Good point. Both those teams (the women this year and the men last year) were very good, but not great--but return most of their players the next year. IIRC, we only lose Joy Cheek and Bridgette Mitchell to graduation, who are very nice players but not irreplaceable. Hopefully the team will learn from this. And I do think it's a team loss, not just the coach's fault, not just Thomas's fault.

[miramar]

Tough loss but they did win the ACC and get to the Elite Eight, which is impressive.

Nevertheless, you can't shoot 23.1% no matter how good your defense is.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/boxscore?gameId=300880150

[dukelifer]

Execute what?

Duke frequently plays like this. Most opponents just aren't good enough to make them pay for it.

Shooting the ball- particularly Thomas who is often better than she was tonight. with 3:47 left Duke was up by 7. They never made a shot again. Yes Duke goes through droughts- but you have to hit shots or get to the line. Not all those shots were contested.

[sagegrouse]

We have now had a ritual sacrifice to the basketball gods. Now the men's team can go forward with confidence.

sagegrouse
'I really don't mean anything by this dumb post'

[Duke Mom]

I don't usually watch women's bball, but did because of the Baylor match up, again. Sad ending though, thought our gals had it. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing roughness in woman's sports, but some of those Baylor players looked like they were intentionally trying to do physical damage to Duke. Maybe that's the idea, maybe I'm having a sexist reaction, maybe my eye just isn't used to seeing it, don't know, but several plays sure seemed overly rough to me.

And that one Baylor 6' 8'' player (with the deep voice) who everyone keeps talking about (and everyone wants us to stop talking about) needs to practice her free throws.

Congrats to the Blue Devils for making it this far!

[buddy]

This season was quite successful. The team lived and died by defense. This team never had any offensive rhythm, especially in a half court game. Duke's offense consists of little more than turning over opponents and getting runouts. Generally it works. Tonight it did not.

In many ways this is a limited team. Alison Verneray offers hope for future success in the post. Krystal Thomas is a very nice person, but is just too slow to be a consistently effective post player. Mitchell, Cheek, and Jackson, the three seniors, at best are role players. Valuable role players, but still role players. There are no stars there (and I don't mean this as a knock). Past Duke teams have had a Beard, Currie, or Harding to go to in the clutch. This team has Jasmine Thomas, who more often than not plays out of control. She can be a gifted player, but only if her mental effort is as good as her physical ability. Tonight it was not.

Next year we are supposed to have some gifted players joining the team. It will be Coach P's 4th year; however, only the three youngest classes will be hers (the seniors were all Gail's recruits). To date, her recruiting is suspect, but next year and the year after look to be different.

On this board we have had long discussions about the men's end of game stall ball, but it is a strategy, the players know how to execute it, and it generally works. In games where the team is not in control at the end, the men seem to have the mental toughness to find a way to win more often than not. The women don't seem to have an end of game strategy. Tonight (and last year at Michigan State) they were not mentally tough enough to pull it out. At UNC this year, they also did not show the requisite mental toughness to win a difficult game. Is that coaching? I think that is the first place to look.

In all, I think this team overachieved. Regular season ACC champion, ACC Tournament champion, and Elite 8 is nothing to be sneezed at. Best season in years, and probably as good as could reasonably have been hoped for.

[YourLandlord]

It was weird that Duke was allowed to substitute in the 2004 Yankees for the last 5 minutes of the game. Who knew all those guys still had eligibility?

[dukelifer]

I don't usually watch women's bball, but did because of the Baylor match up, again. Sad ending though, thought our gals had it. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing roughness in woman's sports, but some of those Baylor players looked like they were intentionally trying to do physical damage to Duke. Maybe that's the idea, maybe I'm having a sexist reaction, maybe my eye just isn't used to seeing it, don't know, but several plays sure seemed overly rough to me.

And that one Baylor 6' 8'' player (with the deep voice) who everyone keeps talking about (and everyone wants us to stop talking about) needs to practice her free throws.

Congrats to the Blue Devils for making it this far!
If you want to see a sad ending- watch the highlights of the Stanford Xavier game. Cannot even begin to explain what happened to Xavier.

[dukeblue225]

Griner has way too much testosterone. Someone should run gender tests.

[YourLandlord]

If you want to see a sad ending- watch the highlights of the Stanford Xavier game. Cannot even begin to explain what happened to Xavier.
? http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/playbyplay?gameId=300880024

Doesn't seem that big of a deal. X was down big, fought back to tie it up, then Stanford won with the last possession. Fairly typical game, no?

[dukelifer]

? http://scores.espn.go.com/ncw/playbyplay?gameId=300880024

Doesn't seem that big of a deal. X was down big, fought back to tie it up, then Stanford won with the last possession. Fairly typical game, no?

Xavier had two point blank- wide open- no one around layups in the last 10 seconds to take the lead- missed BOTH and then let a guard run the length of the court in 4 seconds to get a layup to win. Not typical.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

What the heck? We couldn't score a point with 3:47 left. Not a free throw, not a conversion, nothing, nada, ick. We really need to see what we need to do to get offense. We can play D, but it does little good if you can't put the ball in the hoop. Last I checked that is the purpose of the game and the woman's team is not very good at it. In fact it is often painful to watch.

Congratulations Baylor. We have nobody to blame, but ourselves.

GO DUKE!

[YourLandlord]

Xavier had two point blank- wide open- no one around layups in the last 10 seconds to take the lead- missed BOTH and then let a guard run the length of the court in 4 seconds to get a layup to win. Not typical.
So is it really heartbreaking if, well, you're just not good?

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0lD_t2kPaU

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0lD_t2kPaU

Opps wrong thread sorry.

[Kedsy]

But do you know what they'll all have in common beyond their jerseys? Huge, possibly insurmountable doubts about their coach's ability to do close the deal.

I cannot put into words how much I disagree with your statement, your logic, and your tone. The players won't for even a millisecond doubt anything about their coach, nor should they. And we, the fans, shouldn't either.

The team tightened up at the end and missed their shots, made a couple of mental errors, and we lost. It hurts and we move on. Why does there have to be more to it than that?

[JaMarcus Russell]

I completely agree with you, Kedsy.

ETA: I don't think that this team was expected to be a Final 4 contender by many experts in the pre-season, yet they came very close. And there is a decent possibility that the next two squads will be better than this current team, which could definitely lead to some very exciting times in March 2011 and 2012.

[brevity]

Xavier had two point blank- wide open- no one around layups in the last 10 seconds to take the lead- missed BOTH and then let a guard run the length of the court in 4 seconds to get a layup to win. Not typical.

The defensive lapses of Stanford's #14 -- leaving that Xavier player wide open for a silly, ineffective double team TWICE within a 10-second span -- makes me think the better coach lost that game.

This is common: unlike the men's game, there is little correlation here between winning on the sidelines and winning the game. So in the battle royale of McCallie-Mulkey II: This Time It's Less Green, I have a hard time playing sole blame on the coach.

Frustrating. I want to enjoy the women's game, but even the most polished looking teams become chaotic late in a close match.

[calltheobvious]

I cannot put into words how much I disagree with your statement, your logic, and your tone. The players won't for even a millisecond doubt anything about their coach, nor should they. And we, the fans, shouldn't either.

It's fine that you disgree, though I don't see how your "because I said so" method of argument should persuade.


The team tightened up at the end and missed their shots, made a couple of mental errors, and we lost. It hurts and we move on. Why does there have to be more to it than that?

I think it's charitable to the point of being misleading for you to describe the ending as you have. Duke didn't "tighten up," they completely lost their composure. And to say that Duke "missed their shots" late in the game totally glosses over the ridiculous shot selection. On a related note, there weren't a "couple of mental errors," there were many, stacked one on top of another, before and after timeouts during which their coach was presumably attempting to provide direction.

[Kedsy]

But do you know what they'll all have in common beyond their jerseys? Huge, possibly insurmountable doubts about their coach's ability to do close the deal.


It's fine that you disgree, though I don't see how your "because I said so" method of argument should persuade.

It should be at least as persuasive as your original "say something inflammatory completely without justification or evidence" method of negative thinking.


I think it's charitable to the point of being misleading for you to describe the ending as you have. Duke didn't "tighten up," they completely lost their composure.

You say potato... you just don't say it in a very nice way. This was the biggest game of most of these women's lives, Krystal had fouled out, and it was like a five ton weight had descended on their chests. It's unfortunate but it happens, and blaming the coach is pointless. Suggesting that the players have lost or will lose faith in their coach because of it is way beyond pointless.


And to say that Duke "missed their shots" late in the game totally glosses over the ridiculous shot selection. On a related note, there weren't a "couple of mental errors," there were many, stacked one on top of another, before and after timeouts during which their coach was presumably attempting to provide direction.

Do you think Coach P suggested the shot selection? Do you think she told them to inbound like that right under the hoop? I don't disagree that the team made mistakes; it's your extrapolation that it was all the coach's fault and/or the players will think it's the coach's fault that I don't understand.

[Jim3k]

Do you think Coach P suggested the shot selection? Do you think she told them to inbound like that right under the hoop? I don't disagree that the team made mistakes; it's your extrapolation that it was all the coach's fault and/or the players will think it's the coach's fault that I don't understand.

Shot selection? Perhaps not...but it's actually a little unclear.

As for the inbounding -- that absolutely falls on McCallie. Presumably she has a number of inbounding plays that she can call. If she didn't and left it up to the players, it's her responsibility. If she did, then she called an extremely unwise play, which Jas unfortunately compounded when she allowed the rip. Facing a press on an inbound needs a plan that allows for a receiver to break open. Short, under the basket passes, occur in a dangerous place. McCallie knows that. So why didn't she deal with it? The press continued for the second inbound in which Cheek forgot she could run the baseline. But she was still looking for a short pass. Same mistake as before. Why wasn't McCallie calling out a play after seeing the first inbound go awry?

I will concede that Jas didn't protect the ball and Joy had her mental error, but McCallie was right there, fully able to inject an instruction, one which should have been made earlier, anyway. Did the press catch her by surprise? I don't think so.

[BenK]

I don't usually watch women's bball, but did because of the Baylor match up, again. Sad ending though, thought our gals had it. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing roughness in woman's sports, but some of those Baylor players looked like they were intentionally trying to do physical damage to Duke. Maybe that's the idea, maybe I'm having a sexist reaction, maybe my eye just isn't used to seeing it, don't know, but several plays sure seemed overly rough to me.

And that one Baylor 6' 8'' player (with the deep voice) who everyone keeps talking about (and everyone wants us to stop talking about) needs to practice her free throws.

Congrats to the Blue Devils for making it this far!

That one Baylor 6' 8'' player does need to work on her free throws. She only hit about 70 percent for the season (only slightly better than Duke's team average of about 67 percent). I'm sure she'll work on it. Eighty percent would be more to my liking. She only hit 2 of 4 tonight, but she was 11-13 against the Lady Vols. She's a freshman, she'll be get better at the foul shots with experience.

Don't feel bad about losing to a 4 seed. The Bears would have been a one or two seed had they not lost Melissa Jones (you may remember her as the blond kind whose layup and foul shots at the end of the game pretty much sealed the game). Baylor is young, but more talented than Duke. Also, the Lady Bears have a advantage in coaching--more experience and more winning experience than Duke's staff--that probably rubs off in crunch time.

[burnspbesq]

Poor decision-making at the offensive end has plagued every McCallie coached Duke team, and it cost us a trip to the Final Four. Why are we launching threes with over 20 seconds on the shot clock when we have a one-possession lead??? Jaz needs to watch tape of Nolan for two hours a day all summer.

That said, if officials are going to allow Griner to use her elbows as weapons and throw defenders around, she will be unguardable. The elbow to Krystal's jaw HAS TO be an offensive foul. It's more obvious and more dangerous than the drop-the-shoulder-and-turn-in move that we see called an offensive foul so often in the men's game. In fact, I would argue that Griner should have been called for a flagrant.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Sucks we weren't able to win, but i must admit, i'm very excited to see baylor against uconn.

[dukelifer]

So is it really heartbreaking if, well, you're just not good?

Interesting- so it is only heartbreaking if the better team loses? If Duke had lost to UNLV in 1991 by missing two wide open dunks in a row with 10 seconds to go and then let Greg Anthony run the court and score a layup- I am pretty sure I would have been heartbroken as would have been the player who missed the two dunks.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I doubt it will make much difference.
Having shooters will make a huge difference. The few games that the shots fell, we benefited (such as against SDSU), but Duke really hasn't had a shooter since Abby left, and her last two years were questionable in that department. When we finally have some threats on the outside, along with AV's development on the inside, we are going to be an amazing team.
As far as this season goes, thanks tons to Joy, Keturah, and Bridgette. You 3 have been great to watch for four years. GO DUKE!!

[Saratoga2]

It should be at least as persuasive as your original "say something inflammatory completely without justification or evidence" method of negative thinking.



You say potato... you just don't say it in a very nice way. This was the biggest game of most of these women's lives, Krystal had fouled out, and it was like a five ton weight had descended on their chests. It's unfortunate but it happens, and blaming the coach is pointless. Suggesting that the players have lost or will lose faith in their coach because of it is way beyond pointless.



Do you think Coach P suggested the shot selection? Do you think she told them to inbound like that right under the hoop? I don't disagree that the team made mistakes; it's your extrapolation that it was all the coach's fault and/or the players will think it's the coach's fault that I don't understand.

With Baylor scoring on about 25% if their possessions and Duke with a small lead, coach P went to the press and promptly gave up a layup. Then she stayed in the press one more time. I doubt if the players decided to press on their own.

I think some of the miscues go to the players but also some to the coach. It wasn't as if Baylor was a Connecticut. The team unfortunately lost after putting in a very good performance for most of the game, by being unable to handle the end of game pressure of Baylor. As others have pointed out, bad shot selection, early in the clock, poor end of game strategy and so on.

Lets hope this is a learning experience, but it won't be if the coach and players don't face the facts of what happened and do things to correct them going forward.

[wacobluedevil]

Griner has way too much testosterone. Someone should run gender tests.

I am thankful that the vast majority of posters on this site do not make such tasteless and derogatory comments such as this.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I am thankful that the vast majority of posters on this site do not make such tasteless and derogatory comments such as this.

While the comment may be tasteless, I know many people who have talked to me about WBB have brought up that same comment. I had never heard her speak in an interview but after at least 10 people mentioning the same idea to me, I had to look up an interview with her. She does have a very deep voice. But then again, I'd never try out for American Idol, either :D

So, the thought is out there. And after listening to her speak, I'm sure the same thought came to many people. Doesn't mean those people are bad people for thinking that...it's just an instant reaction.

[JG Nothing]

While the comment may be tasteless, I know many people who have talked to me about WBB have brought up that same comment. I had never heard her speak in an interview but after at least 10 people mentioning the same idea to me, I had to look up an interview with her. She does have a very deep voice. But then again, I'd never try out for American Idol, either :D

So, the thought is out there. And after listening to her speak, I'm sure the same thought came to many people. Doesn't mean those people are bad people for thinking that...it's just an instant reaction.

But why bring it up in a public forum at all? It serves no purpose whatsoever except to mock Griner and prompt mean-spirited comments. The DBR and its participants are always bragging about the level of discourse on the boards (and rightly so). This is one subject that fails to meet that standard...by a long shot.

[DukeGirl4ever]

But why bring it up in a public forum at all? It serves no purpose whatsoever except to mock Griner and prompt mean-spirited comments. The DBR and its participants are always bragging about the level of discourse on the boards (and rightly so). This is one subject that fails to meet that standard...by a long shot.

I agree with you whole-heartedly.
I didn't bring up the subject. I think it is a shame how women who have muscles or a deep voice have comments made about them.

I played women's basketball...I have a "not so pretty voice"....can you imagine what everyone labeled me in high school? And tomboy is the nice version.

A public forum should discuss these things in an educational way (although it needs educated people to do so). I don't think we ignore it...I think we talk about these stereotypes and why they hurt the game/individuals.

The problem is, from what I heard (please don't take this as my opinion because it is not), that people will now think her dominance is because of "other factors" and that is simply absurd.

[YourLandlord]

Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate topic of conversation, especially in light of recent events.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/09/11/unconfirmed-reports-south-african-runner-may-be-intersexed/

[JG Nothing]

Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate topic of conversation, especially in light of recent events.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/09/11/unconfirmed-reports-south-african-runner-may-be-intersexed/

The subject does not make me uncomfortable at all as long as people talk about it intelligently. Simplistic and juvenile comments like Griner needs a "gender test" or she "looks and sounds like a man" ignore the complexity of sex and gender. Please tell me how most of the relevant comments in this thread have raised the level of conversation beyond inane gossip.

[Indoor66]

The subject does not make me uncomfortable at all as long as people talk about it intelligently. Simplistic and juvenile comments like Griner needs a "gender test" or she "looks and sounds like a man" ignore the complexity of sex and gender. Please tell me how most of the relevant comments in this thread have raised the level of conversation beyond inane gossip.

How else do you raise the question or issue?

[YourLandlord]

The subject does not make me uncomfortable at all as long as people talk about it intelligently. Simplistic and juvenile comments like Griner needs a "gender test" or she "looks and sounds like a man" ignore the complexity of sex and gender. Please tell me how most of the relevant comments in this thread have raised the level of conversation beyond inane gossip.
Sure there is biological complexity involved, but "looks and sounds [more] like a man [than is expected]" is absolutely true.

Additionally, given the SA runner situation, many people are curious if she should be "allowed" to play if things turn out "complex", using your terminology. The only way to determine this is through some type of gender "testing" (yes, not the best word).

Finally, yes, it was an opposing player in a tough tournament game. It's a fan message board. There is going to be some poking and prodding. Don't look for a biological discussion of sex and gender complexities here.

[DukeSean]

not sure how much this topic was beaten to death in another thread if at all, but I got into a semi-heated discussion about the apparent double standard in Griner's suspension vs. LeGarrette Blount's (Oregon football player) suspension. I pretty much argued that she should've been suspended the rest of the season, but the other fella didn't agree, saying that her 2 game suspension was more than the NCAA mandate. Opinions?

I still think we played really poorly down the stretch and Baylor deserved to win it, but I suppose my disappointment at the time brought it up again.

[wacobluedevil]

How else do you raise the question or issue?

Surely not by saying "Griner has way too much testosterone. Someone should run gender tests." She has endured a season of such comments (usually much more graphic), and with the physical play she has had to endure (as Bill Russell put it in a NY Times article, before we talk about the "punch" we need to look at the ten plays leading up to it), creates an environment that no teenager needs to endure.

Such comments lack the classiness that characterized the DBR thread that complimented the Baylor men's team.

Finally, the depth of a person's voice is determined in significant measure by the length and thickness of the vocal chords. It stands to reason that a woman her size would have a deeper voice.

[DukeGirl4ever]

not sure how much this topic was beaten to death in another thread if at all, but I got into a semi-heated discussion about the apparent double standard in Griner's suspension vs. LeGarrette Blount's (Oregon football player) suspension. I pretty much argued that she should've been suspended the rest of the season, but the other fella didn't agree, saying that her 2 game suspension was more than the NCAA mandate. Opinions?

I still think we played really poorly down the stretch and Baylor deserved to win it, but I suppose my disappointment at the time brought it up again.

I too felt the suspension should have been season long. We all saw that play over and over again, and the sad part is, she hit the TT player very hard, but her fist wasn't even a dead on hit. Can you imagine if she connected with the fully-closed fist? It was her arm that grazed the TT player at a high force and she was still dazed and had a broken nose.

After watching, I almost feel like Griner realized at the last second that she was doing something wrong and tried to pull back a bit and that is why she didn't connect with the fist.

The question I kept wondering is what would have happened if it was a men's player on any highly popular team?

[DukeGirl4ever]

Finally, the depth of a person's voice is determined in significant measure by the length and thickness of the vocal chords. It stands to reason that a woman her size would have a deeper voice.

Never heard that before...care to elaborate or give a source?

Based on that comment, my question is, is it a person's height that makes their vocal cords deeper? One can have a longer neck and not necessarily be tall. I've heard a lot of tall women speak and most have feminine voices.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Griner has way too much testosterone. Someone should run gender tests.

Seriously? it's understandable to be upset after a loss, but this is uncalled for.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Baylor would be a very good team for Duke to schedule a home and away with. I'd love to see that happen. Both teams will be vastly improved in the next few years...my guess is both will be perrenial FF teams as long as they don't run into each other in the regional again.

[wacobluedevil]

Never heard that before...care to elaborate or give a source?

Based on that comment, my question is, is it a person's height that makes their vocal cords deeper? One can have a longer neck and not necessarily be tall. I've heard a lot of tall women speak and most have feminine voices.

First, what makes a woman's voice "feminine"? A high pitch? Funny, in popular culture a low-pitched voice is often considered sensuous, e.g., Kathleen Turner, Lauren Bacall.

Second, I didn't say that a person's height necessarily makes their vocal chords larger and therefore deeper (plenty of male tenors who are physically large out there). To be sure, there are many factors that influence the size of the vocal chords, including heredity and gender (yes, gender), but these are not the only factors. All things being equal, the larger the person, the greater the chance their voice will be lower.

Source: how do two degrees in choral music (for which study in the anatomy of the vocal chords was a required subject) strike you?

[DukeGirl4ever]

Source: how do two degrees in choral music (for which study in the anatomy of the vocal chords was a required subject) strike you?

K, #1, I was asking an honest question, wasn't being a smarty pants. I don't have a degree in choral music. I can't hit any note, so def. not my career path.

#2, I actually thought your post was interesting and was wondering where you got that info, which is why I asked for sources. I do like to be an educated person and learn more about things.

[DukeSean]

I too felt the suspension should have been season long. We all saw that play over and over again, and the sad part is, she hit the TT player very hard, but her fist wasn't even a dead on hit. Can you imagine if she connected with the fully-closed fist? It was her arm that grazed the TT player at a high force and she was still dazed and had a broken nose.

After watching, I almost feel like Griner realized at the last second that she was doing something wrong and tried to pull back a bit and that is why she didn't connect with the fist.

The question I kept wondering is what would have happened if it was a men's player on any highly popular team?

Well, I can pretty assume what would happen if that was a Duke player. Season-long suspension. I don't think K or P would stand for that one bit. Yes I am biased, but that was a seriously dangerous punch, the intent was to harm. Some people thought the TT girl deserved it, and seeing the play I would tend to agree, but still doesn't justify the action (e.g., Boise State player taunting Blount probably deserved whatever was coming to him, but does not excuse Blount from actually throwing the punch).

Anyways, I just thought that, since she is arguably a landmark player in WBB present and future (seriously have you seen some of her dunks?), she got let off a bit too easy.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Anyways, I just thought that, since she is arguably a landmark player in WBB present and future (seriously have you seen some of her dunks?), she got let off a bit too easy.

Definitely agree. I also believe the suspension was only 2 games b/c it was conference tourney and NCAA tourney time. They wouldn't want the new face to women's college basketball sitting out. She will draw ratings with her ability to dunk and God knows WBB needs anything to draw more viewers.

I watched her last night and there were a few times she got very animated and was screaming after a block or key play. I did that all the time as a player; it got me motivated. But, I think after the incident she should try to play it a bit more low key. She's going to come off as very aggressive (if not already) and players will take offense to that, just like the TT player did.

[DukeBlueNikeShox]

The NCAA wouldn't have been involved with a suspension, because the incident didn't occur during a NCAA tournament game. When Oklahoma State's Andrea Riley punched LSU's Erica White in an NCAA tournamnet game, the NCAA gave her a one game suspension, pending when her team was back in the NCAA tournament. OK State didn't make the tournament last year, so she had to serve her suspension this year.

Blount's situation was totally different. That was not his first incident or program violation. He had been suspended for academics and breaking team rules. Not only did he punch the Boise State player, he also pushed a teammate and went in the stands after fans. Blount then had an altercation with the security officials. He should have been kicked out of the program, and Oregon made itself look unmoral and desperate by allowing him back on the team during the season

[Verga3]

She's got a resonant deep voice and a great right-hand dunk and haymaker, but those bullet points don't give us enough to warrant the flavor of some of the prior posts. Moderators, this one is out of bounds and not up to DBR standards. Move on.

Let's lay off the girl with a deep voice.

[dukelifer]

UConn just annihilated Florida State by 40! They are a buzzsaw. It will be interesting to see if Baylor can hang with them - my gut says no. I am pretty sure Duke would have suffered again at their hands.

[YourLandlord]

Surely not by saying "Griner has way too much testosterone. Someone should run gender tests." She has endured a season of such comments (usually much more graphic)
Why are you so quick to assume that she doesn't have something "complicated" going on?

Why are you defending something you know nothing about?

[YourLandlord]

UConn just annihilated Florida State by 40! They are a buzzsaw. It will be interesting to see if Baylor can hang with them - my gut says no. I am pretty sure Duke would have suffered again at their hands.
Baylor has no chance. No team has any chance.

[NYDukie]

UConn just annihilated Florida State by 40! They are a buzzsaw. It will be interesting to see if Baylor can hang with them - my gut says no. I am pretty sure Duke would have suffered again at their hands.

I just saw the 40 point beatdown and it made me wonder this. Would you prefer to lose a close Elite 8 contest as the women just did or most likely lose a Final 4 showdown with UConn by 25+ in front of a more national audience? I know some will state, look at the men in 91 against UNLV. I understand that arguement to a degree but do consider that the women's field and talent is much more top heavy (see UConn, Stanford and Tenn for the better part of all these years) than the men's field has been or probably will be in the near future. Just food for thought. I would probably take my chances with a beatdown from UConn but it did cross my mind for a moment that maybe the possible embarassment wouldn't be worth it.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I just saw the 40 point beatdown and it made me wonder this. Would you prefer to lose a close Elite 8 contest as the women just did or most likely lose a Final 4 showdown with UConn by 25+ in front of a more national audience? I know some will state, look at the men in 91 against UNLV. I understand that arguement to a degree but do consider that the women's field and talent is much more top heavy (see UConn, Stanford and Tenn for the better part of all these years) than the men's field has been or probably will be in the near future. Just food for thought. I would probably take my chances with a beatdown from UConn but it did cross my mind for a moment that maybe the possible embarassment wouldn't be worth it.

I tried to bring up the same point last night but you did a MUCH better job of putting it in to words than I did! :D

I kind of asked if the loss was a HUGE deal since UCONN would be next. You brought up an excellent point about the national media and a beat down. When UCONN played Temple last weekend (I think it was like 90-36) the broadcasters were talking about how this will help Temple bring in recruits...I question that....

I see both sides of the argument, and I love to hear everyone's thoughts. Tough loss for Duke but they had a great year!

[Duvall]

Why are you so quick to assume that she doesn't have something "complicated" going on?

Why are you defending something you know nothing about?

Because when reasonable people know nothing, they keep their fool mouths shut.

I would hope that this forum would aspire to reasonableness.

[YourLandlord]

Because when reasonable people know nothing, they keep their fool mouths shut.
Which applies in both directions, certainly.

[dukelifer]

I just saw the 40 point beatdown and it made me wonder this. Would you prefer to lose a close Elite 8 contest as the women just did or most likely lose a Final 4 showdown with UConn by 25+ in front of a more national audience? I know some will state, look at the men in 91 against UNLV. I understand that arguement to a degree but do consider that the women's field and talent is much more top heavy (see UConn, Stanford and Tenn for the better part of all these years) than the men's field has been or probably will be in the near future. Just food for thought. I would probably take my chances with a beatdown from UConn but it did cross my mind for a moment that maybe the possible embarassment wouldn't be worth it.
I also wondered the same. Right now everyone is getting blown out by UConn. The magnitude of the UNLV loss was somewhat unexpected and made the subsequent team want to get back. Still Duke learned a lot by losing to Baylor. They will be a better team because of it- because they were 4 minutes from a FF. That will keep them focused all summer.

[-jk]

I think we've beaten this carcass enough.

-jk