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dukemsu
03-24-2010, 08:05 PM
Not that we like to relive that painful season, but....

I have seen online in a couple places that one of Duke's players in 02 was having a personal issue that affected his play in the Indiana loss.

Does anyone know if there's any truth to this? Just curious.

dukemsu

ArnieMc
03-25-2010, 09:42 AM
Not that we like to relive that painful season, but....

I have seen online in a couple places that one of Duke's players in 02 was having a personal issue that affected his play in the Indiana loss.

Does anyone know if there's any truth to this? Just curious.

dukemsuI hadn't heard that, but, in one discussion after a game where he was the color man, Jason Williams said that that team had chemistry issues because it had "too many go-to guys."

KyDevilinIL
03-25-2010, 10:09 AM
I hadn't heard that, but, in one discussion after a game where he was the color man, Jason Williams said that that team had chemistry issues because it had "too many go-to guys."

That team also didn't have Battier and Nate James, both of whom I have to believe were skilled smiters of intra-squad BS.

CDu
03-25-2010, 10:18 AM
I hadn't heard that, but, in one discussion after a game where he was the color man, Jason Williams said that that team had chemistry issues because it had "too many go-to guys."

I don't think having too many go-to guys was the biggest problem. I think the problems were:

1. Not enough interior defense. Dunleavy played the 4, and could not defend any of Indiana's bigs. Odle and Newton combined for 23 pts and 15 rebounds on 10-12 shooting, which was 13 points and 10 rebounds above their combined season average. Jeffries finished with 24 and 15. So their three post guys got 47 and 30 against us.

2. Not enough rebounding. We got killed on the glass to the tune of 46-29, and Indiana got 20 offensive rebounds. I think the 2002 loss just illustrates how important Battier was defensively.

3. Inefficient, poor shooting nights from our wings. Williams shot 6-19 for 15pts. Dunleavy shot 5-16 for 17pts. Jones shot 3-8 for 6pts. Ewing shot 2-8 for 6pts. Only Duhon (3-5) shot well, and he didn't shoot much. Our wings shot a combined 19-56 for 51pts.

If you attribute #3 entirely to having too many go-to guys (which I think would be inaccurate), we still could have won comfortably if we'd simply rebounded better or defended the post better. But Indiana killed us on the interior. I think the loss just illustrates how important Battier was defensively.

DevilWolf
03-25-2010, 12:20 PM
No disrespect to anyone else on that team, but that team had only one go-to guy. Maybe the problem was others not realizing that.

CDu
03-25-2010, 01:21 PM
No disrespect to anyone else on that team, but that team had only one go-to guy. Maybe the problem was others not realizing that.

I think they had two go-to guys: Williams and Boozer. I agree that all of the others were secondary to those two. Dunleavy was a fantastic third option. But he was definitely a third option. Jones was an X-factor type of guy, and Duhon was a great complementary player.

There may also have been chemistry issues (and Williams would obviously have a better idea about that than any of us), but part of me thinks Williams is trying to find a deeper meaning for the loss. At face value though, the team lost because we didn't shoot well, couldn't rebound, and didn't have the defense in the post (and not necessarily in that order).

Zeb
03-25-2010, 01:29 PM
I have seen online in a couple places that one of Duke's players in 02 was having a personal issue that affected his play in the Indiana loss.

Does anyone know if there's any truth to this? Just curious.


Would you have been satisfied with a response of "Yes, it's true."? What is the point of asking this question without specifying the player and issue? If you aren't comfortable repeating the rumor, are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

Vincetaylor
03-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Regardless of its issues, that team should have absolutely never lost to Indiana. Never. That team had 5 guys who have played significant minutes in the NBA. A team with this much talent and Coach K at the helm should have handled that Indiana team with little trouble. Obviously they didn't, so I will always rank this as one of K's worst losses.

Turtleboy
03-25-2010, 02:16 PM
I hadn't heard that, but, in one discussion after a game where he was the color man, Jason Williams said that that team had chemistry issues because it had "too many go-to guys."I tend to take what he says as a color man with a big bucket of salt. He has Duke losing to Baylor because he "questions their toughness."

cato
03-25-2010, 02:24 PM
Regardless of its issues, that team should have absolutely never lost to Indiana. Never. That team had 5 guys who have played significant minutes in the NBA. A team with this much talent and Coach K at the helm should have handled that Indiana team with little trouble. Obviously they didn't, so I will always rank this as one of K's worst losses.

That team may have had 5 NBA players, but certainly none of them had an answer for Jeffries.

Besides, that Indiana loss saved us the pain of losing to the Terps later in the tourney. Would you really have wanted that to happen?

CDu
03-25-2010, 02:32 PM
That team may have had 5 NBA players, but certainly none of them had an answer for Jeffries.

Besides, that Indiana loss saved us the pain of losing to the Terps later in the tourney. Would you really have wanted that to happen?

Agreed. Not just Jeffries, but also Odle and Newton. Those two guys (who weren't typically big scoring threats) were able to score whenever they got it on the blocks (10-12 shooting, 23 points).

We had a really talented team. But Indiana was able to exploit two particular weaknesses - we couldn't rebound, and we didn't have much of an inside presence at the 4 spot.

I tend to agree with Turtleboy - I'd take Williams' analysis with a grain of salt.

dukemsu
03-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Would you have been satisfied with a response of "Yes, it's true."? What is the point of asking this question without specifying the player and issue? If you aren't comfortable repeating the rumor, are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

I asked the question because I wondered whether this had been discussed. The player wasn't specified in the article I read. I didn't know to the level of which (if at all) this had been discussed. The article I read made it sound as if it were common knowledge among Duke fans.

I have no idea what player was being discussed. This was the first I had heard or read of it, which is why I was wondering if it had been discussed among Duke fans here on the board.

dukemsu

Matches
03-25-2010, 03:07 PM
I think that Indiana game and the LSU loss in 2006 were the most gut-wrenching losses of the last decade. Senior night 2001 was really bad at the time but ended up being redeemed.

VCU in 2007 gets honorable mention.

MChambers
03-25-2010, 03:07 PM
I asked the question because I wondered whether this had been discussed. The player wasn't specified in the article I read. I didn't know to the level of which (if at all) this had been discussed. The article I read made it sound as if it were common knowledge among Duke fans.

I have no idea what player was being discussed. This was the first I had heard or read of it, which is why I was wondering if it had been discussed among Duke fans here on the board.

dukemsu

And I googled this, and found DBR itself bringing this up on a website devoted to Purdue. I thought it was odd that DBR would bring this up. (No, I don't know about the player and the personal issues.)

npdevil27
03-25-2010, 03:08 PM
I think that Indiana game and the LSU loss in 2006 were the most gut-wrenching losses of the last decade. Senior night 2001 was really bad at the time but ended up being redeemed.

VCU in 2007 gets honorable mention.
Seriously? VCU? That Duke team was going nowhere.

As bad as Indiana was, UConn in 2004 was worse - because that Duke team WAS going to win the NC.

Matches
03-25-2010, 03:12 PM
Seriously? VCU? That Duke team was going nowhere.



True - but losing in the first round was a big kick in the head.

UConn in '04 hurt but I felt like at least we lost to a team that was our equal or better. The ones that get me the most are the ones we lose to teams I consider clearly inferior.

muzikfrk75
03-25-2010, 03:53 PM
Uconn in 2004 wasn't that bad of a loss for me because I thought their team was better than ours anyway. As for the 'bad' losses:

NC game vs Uconn in 99
Indiana game
LSU game
NC game vs UNLV (although we got redemption the next year)
2005 unc game (where Marvin Williams made the go-ahead basket...UGHHHHHH)

juise
03-25-2010, 03:55 PM
2002 Indiana was a throw stuff loss. (In fact my roommate ripped the white board off the door, tore it into several pieces and threw it all over the room.)

2004 UConn was more of a catatonic depression type of loss.

2006 LSU is somewhere in between.

I wouldn't put 2007 VCU in the same ballpark.

basket1544
03-25-2010, 10:27 PM
1993 Cal game always will be the worst for me because I was so young. 1999 game hurt too. 2004 UConn hurt too.
VCU hurt in a different way. 1993, 1999, 2004 I truly believed Duke would win the NC. In 2007 that wasn't even in my mind. I just wanted this team of young scrappy individuals with a lot of heart to make up for their lack of experience to be able to play another night.

cato
03-26-2010, 11:44 AM
Since we're digging around in the depths of depressing losses, I'd rank them:

1999 -- my one chance to be on campus for a title. I will always remember the pain of walking out onto main quad after the game. Of the K era, the only loss that could be worse would be 1986, but I was 10 at the time, so I won't include it on my list. My brother would rank it higher, but that was his senior year.

1998 -- I was driving back from Tahoe with my brother, and we stopped at a TGIFriday's in Riverside. Only two groups were in the bar. My brother and I, and a table packed with Kentucky fans. I'll never be comfortable with an 18 point lead again.

1994 -- Scotty f'in Thurman. Also, the day that I got into Duke. Bad omen for Duke basketball during my time in Durham? You betcha.

2002 -- JDub could have been a hero. But we still would have been rolled by the Terps.

None of the other losses particularly stand out to me. They all hurt, but that happens every year unless the team cuts down the nets at the FF. 2004 and 2006 were no fun, but they weren't exactly shocking. VCU was brutal, because I was watching at a sports bar with a bunch of haters, but again, not shocking.

JohnGalt
03-26-2010, 12:40 PM
1994 -- Scotty f'in Thurman. Also, the day that I got into Duke. Bad omen for Duke basketball during my time in Durham? You betcha.


Didn't Duke lose to UNC twice that year?

IMO, a NC would have been tempered by that fact...

Matches
03-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Didn't Duke lose to UNC twice that year?

IMO, a NC would have been tempered by that fact...

Oh, I disagree. 1994 was going to be UNC's year - they were going to get their back-to-back to match ours. If they'd not only lost, but had "their" title stolen by Duke.. few things would be sweeter.

Reddevil
03-26-2010, 01:03 PM
Since we're digging around in the depths of depressing losses, I'd rank them:

1999 -- my one chance to be on campus for a title. I will always remember the pain of walking out onto main quad after the game. Of the K era, the only loss that could be worse would be 1986, but I was 10 at the time, so I won't include it on my list. My brother would rank it higher, but that was his senior year.

1998 -- I was driving back from Tahoe with my brother, and we stopped at a TGIFriday's in Riverside. Only two groups were in the bar. My brother and I, and a table packed with Kentucky fans. I'll never be comfortable with an 18 point lead again.

1994 -- Scotty f'in Thurman. Also, the day that I got into Duke. Bad omen for Duke basketball during my time in Durham? You betcha.

2002 -- JDub could have been a hero. But we still would have been rolled by the Terps.

None of the other losses particularly stand out to me. They all hurt, but that happens every year unless the team cuts down the nets at the FF. 2004 and 2006 were no fun, but they weren't exactly shocking. VCU was brutal, because I was watching at a sports bar with a bunch of haters, but again, not shocking.

Agreed, and personally I would add - I think it was 1997 against Providence. That one really stung.

mehmattski
03-26-2010, 01:28 PM
Agreed, and personally I would add - I think it was 1997 against Providence. That one really stung.

God Shammgod!

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/god-shammgod-whatever-happened-that-guy-166131#

Given the direction this thread is going, I am seeing that, for Duke alums, the most stomach-wrenching losses occurred while at school. That's why, for me, 2004 (i don't remember much of the night after Duhon's 'it matters' three) and 2006 (not as bad since we were further from the title, but my senior year) are the worst, and 2007 (the only year since 2002-2003 when I have not been a Duke student) isn't as bad.

JayZee
03-26-2010, 02:01 PM
I'm pretty sure this has been covered before, but here's my quick list

1986 and 1999 - both the best teams in tournament. with wins both teams would have gone down as in top 5-10 college basketball teams of all time.

1994 and 2004 - lesser teams but both were "that close" to a NC. i know 2004 was in the final 4, but that was the real championship game... :)

1998, 1993, 2002 and LSU (was that 2006?) Excellent, but flawed teams that could have realistically won the NC, but lost earlier than expected.

1978 was before my time, but that seemed like a tough loss, even though the team overachieved. and there was a loss in the mid 60s where a key player got hurt i seem to remember, but also well before my time.

Andre Buckner Fan
03-26-2010, 02:22 PM
For me the most brutal losses were 2002 Indiana and 2006 LSU.

1999 and 2004 were bad losses but getting to the Final Four or a Championship Game is an achievement in and of itself.

The 2002 and 2006 teams had far more potential than the Sweet Sixteen and that's why the losses were so brutal IMHO.

(And as much as I hate to admit it we deserved to lose to VCU.)

:(

JohnGalt
03-26-2010, 02:42 PM
For me the most brutal losses were 2002 Indiana and 2006 LSU.

1999 and 2004 were bad losses but getting to the Final Four or a Championship Game is an achievement in and of itself.

The 2002 and 2006 teams had far more potential than the Sweet Sixteen and that's why the losses were so brutal IMHO.

(And as much as I hate to admit it we deserved to lose to VCU.)

:(

That '99 team was by far the worst. NOBODY picked UCONN over Duke. Duke was loaded that year, rolled over everyone, and just plain lost. If they had won that team would be considered one of the best college basketball teams of all time.

calltheobvious
03-26-2010, 03:00 PM
That '99 team was by far the worst. NOBODY picked UCONN over Duke. Duke was loaded that year, rolled over everyone, and just plain lost. If they had won that team would be considered one of the best college basketball teams of all time.

Len Elmore did.

NYDukie
03-26-2010, 03:01 PM
That '99 team was by far the worst. NOBODY picked UCONN over Duke. Duke was loaded that year, rolled over everyone, and just plain lost. If they had won that team would be considered one of the best college basketball teams of all time.

I have to agree 99 was the worse for me followed by the 98 meltdown, Thurman's rainbow in 94 that killed us, JWill's unfortunate clankity clank in 02 and refgate in 04 against UConn for my top 5.

Going back to 99. I know people say how great that team was or would have be lauded as if they won but don't discount how good UConn was that year. I think that Duke team was awesome!!! However, UConn was a 36-2 team (think about this, two teams from probably the top 2 conferences that year with 1 and 2 losses, respectively, going into the championship game) that was also ranked #1 a good amount of time during the year. I remember after the Cincy loss in Alaska that UConn held #1 for a good time rattling off a long winning streak. Only Duke and UConn that year held #1 I believe. All year I remember reading and hearing how these two teams were the cream of the crop and that they were on a collision course. You could argue that UConn had the best player/future pro on the court in Rip Hamilton. El-Amin was a very good college PG and Ricky Moore, Kevin Freeman were athletic wings but also hard nosed who could play both ends of the court. Inside Jake Voshkul hung around NBA rosters for a # of years and Ed Saunders was a solid PF.

All I am saying is that it is not like they were beat by a NC State or Nova. This was the #2 team in the country at the time and thought of very highly also.

91_92_01_10_15
03-26-2010, 03:57 PM
That '99 team was by far the worst. NOBODY picked UCONN over Duke. Duke was loaded that year, rolled over everyone, and just plain lost. If they had won that team would be considered one of the best college basketball teams of all time.


Len Elmore did.

So did Billy Packer. IIRC, he said that Duke had a much more difficult semifinal game against Mich St. that did UConn against OSU. He thought we would be worn down by the physical play in that game and would lose as a result. At the time, I thought is was just wishful thinking on his part, but in retrospect, he may have been right.

jkidd31
03-26-2010, 06:03 PM
I was down there in '99 and I think the MSU game in the semis really threw that team off....as did a few of the players going out after the game and partying.