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NM Duke Fan
03-24-2010, 03:00 PM
Freeman, as many of you know, is a sometimes controversial African-American writer for CBS. I would imagine that his latest article is sure to bring out some interesting comments on that site!

"My firm belief is Kansas lost because some of the Jayhawks players looked across the floor and saw a white team and thought: "We can take these guys. Jeez. Look at 'em."

Then the Jayhawks got smoked and didn't realize until the end they were playing a bunch of talented athletes."


http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/13107211/underdogs-bring-to-light-time-to-fight-trite-white-stereotypes

hc5duke
03-24-2010, 03:08 PM
Freeman, as many of you know, is a sometimes controversial African-American writer for CBS. I would imagine that his latest article is sure to bring out some interesting comments on that site!

"My firm belief is Kansas lost because some of the Jayhawks players looked across the floor and saw a white team and thought: "We can take these guys. Jeez. Look at 'em."

Then the Jayhawks got smoked and didn't realize until the end they were playing a bunch of talented athletes."


http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/13107211/underdogs-bring-to-light-time-to-fight-trite-white-stereotypes

I thought most of them were Australian - I don't think they count as white, like European players and Steve Nash :rolleyes:

MarkD83
03-24-2010, 03:10 PM
Of course Duke was called "alarmingly unathletic" earlier this year. That fits in with the thesis of Freeman's article.

greybeard
03-24-2010, 03:17 PM
This is a terrific article. As I wrote on another thread, a white broadcaster last week said that he was rooting for Duke even though he usually hates them and "really, really hates Singler as a ballplayer" but only because of how down the ACC is this year. Hate Singler as a ball player? Hate Duke as a team? The way I put it was far more obtusely than this guy does in his article. Props to him!

El_Diablo
03-24-2010, 03:20 PM
I thought most of them were Australian - I don't think they count as white, like European players and Steve Nash :rolleyes:

I think you're confusing UNI with St. Mary's.

Spret42
03-24-2010, 03:21 PM
HBO's Bird and Magic documentary has a GREAT interview with Cedric Maxwell about black attitudes towards white ball players as far back as the 1970's. It was stunning to hear him be so honest about that and not make excuses for it.

Now if people would only accept the reality that there is a portion of the NCAA tournament's popularity which is based on "gritty" white teams like NIU beating teams of uber-athletic black guys we would be onto something.

DevilHorns
03-24-2010, 03:21 PM
I think its a stretch to claim that KU underperformed because they saw a bunch of white guys as an opponent before the game even started. Thats the definition of forcing an opinion on a result.

I do think that many black players overlook white players. Now I'm not saying all, I'm not saying even the majority, but I do think to some extent its true. Anyone who has played pick-up or high school ball has probably heard some trash talking akin to "oooo white boy just schooled you" or something like that. At least thats my experience.

I'm completely in agreement with Freeman in regards to the media's role in all of this. Duke gets less respect b/c we have a lot of white players. Think about if you had Kyle Singler, exactly all that is Kyle Singler, but just made him black? He would be all over ESPN, and maybe even considered a stud with a lot of NBA upside compared to his current draft stock. Sigh.

G man
03-24-2010, 03:29 PM
I thought most of them were Australian - I don't think they count as white, like European players and Steve Nash :rolleyes:

Steve Nash is not athletic he is an athlete when was the last time you saw him rise up on someone or burn someone down the floor. great ball player but not my favorite example.

NashvilleDevil
03-24-2010, 03:37 PM
Steve Nash is not athletic he is an athlete when was the last time you saw him rise up on someone or burn someone down the floor. great ball player but not my favorite example.

You're kidding right? Nash is very athletic and a tremendous athlete.

Spret42
03-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Steve Nash is not athletic he is an athlete when was the last time you saw him rise up on someone or burn someone down the floor. great ball player but not my favorite example.

Are you defining and setting a standard of "athletic" by the Allen Iverson freakish raw speed/leaping ability mold?

Isn't that kind of like defining "smart" by holding everyone to the Robert Oppenheimer/Albert Einstein think big thoughts standard.

I think Steve Nash is plenty athletic enough. I think he could have been a world class player in anything from soccer to tennis.

NM Duke Fan
03-24-2010, 03:45 PM
I do think that many black players overlook white players. Now I'm not saying all, I'm not saying even the majority, but I do think to some extent its true. Anyone who has played pick-up or high school ball has probably heard some trash talking akin to "oooo white boy just schooled you" or something like that. At least thats my experience.


In my earlier years I lived in LA and later in the DC area, and would regularly cruise the blacktops looking for the best games. It got pretty tense at times as I was "tested." Once I saw a couple of high school stars playing one on one, a white player and black player. I walked up and challenged the white player to a game, dispatched him and then challenged the black player. He seemed surprised but decided to humor me. Few players were used to the way I played lock-down, cat-quick D. After I beat him, the white guy was razzing him, "You let HIM beat you?" So yeah, some of us who have played street ball are quite familiar with the perceptions. I loved the game and still love it, and I appreciated the openess of Freeman's article. Just look at the Olympics, there are great athletes from all over the world, and in certain sports the dominant ones are largely from Eastern Europe!

hc5duke
03-24-2010, 03:52 PM
I think you're confusing UNI with St. Mary's.

Ah, I actually saw this picture in the article and was thinking of St. Mary's

http://images.cbssports.com/u/photos/basketball/college/img13107209.jpg

Kris Lang, meet your god

Greg_Newton
03-24-2010, 03:57 PM
I always think this argument is a little silly, and really just boils down to semantics. It's always people trying to argue that "athletic" means "good at sports", so how are these good white teams called unathletic, etc... which is silly, because "athletic", in the sense it is used these days, refers to how fast-twitch-quick and bouncy you are, not how overall effective you are at playing your sport.

Are people REALLY going to argue that Cornell and St. Mary's are as fast-twitch quick and bouncy as UK and Syracuse? Really?

It just so happens that many of these predominantly white teams do happen to get by on skill and execution more than explosive athleticism. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. "Athletic", as it is used today, means something different than "skilled", and I don't see the big deal.

ivydevil
03-24-2010, 03:59 PM
Ah, I actually saw this picture in the article and was thinking of St. Mary's

http://images.cbssports.com/u/photos/basketball/college/img13107209.jpg

Kris Lang, meet your god

Argh! That mouthguard freaked me out when I first saw it during the tournament.

Nugget
03-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Not sure I'm buying it on Singler.

A quick look at 3 or 4 mock NBA draft sites shows the (rough) consensus rankings of Kyle in comparison to the black Small Forwards he would really be competing with for a spot in the top half of the First Round as:

Damion James (#18)
Stanley Robinson (#21)
Devin Ebanks (#22)
Paul George (#24)
Quincy Pondexter (#26)
Kyle Singler (#36)
Darrington Hobson (#39)
Da’Sean Butler (#41).

It's hard for me to think that, assuming all else equal about their games, that Singler's ranking among this group would rise if he were not white.

In particular, I would think that scouts would look at him much like they apparently seem to be looking at Da'Sean Butler -- that questions about his ability to handle the ball well enough to play the wing on offense and to transition on defense from primarily guarding interior players to wing players are enough to keep them from leap-frogging players who present fewer questions.

Who in this group is it obvious Singler should be taken ahead of?

Lennies
03-24-2010, 06:08 PM
I would put Singler and Butler right below Damion James. Ebanks?!? really?

devildownunder
03-24-2010, 06:42 PM
I always think this argument is a little silly, and really just boils down to semantics. It's always people trying to argue that "athletic" means "good at sports", so how are these good white teams called unathletic, etc... which is silly, because "athletic", in the sense it is used these days, refers to how fast-twitch-quick and bouncy you are, not how overall effective you are at playing your sport.

Are people REALLY going to argue that Cornell and St. Mary's are as fast-twitch quick and bouncy as UK and Syracuse? Really?

It just so happens that many of these predominantly white teams do happen to get by on skill and execution more than explosive athleticism. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. "Athletic", as it is used today, means something different than "skilled", and I don't see the big deal.

A couple of problems arise from this kind of dichotomous thinking. White players can be "fast-twitch-quick and bouncy" and also develop their skills and mind for the game. Black players can develop their skills and mind for the game and be fast-twitch-quick and bouncy. The two are not mutually exclusive and the problem is that for some reason -- in the US as much as anywhere if not more -- people just seem to split the two and not want to believe that any one person (or by extension, it seems, any one race) can embody both traits. It's weird. It's almost like white people and black people are afraid of losing "their trait" to the other side, so they have to act like it just can't possibly exist in anyone but "their side".

We're so pathetic sometimes. Really.

Nugget
03-24-2010, 07:34 PM
I was shocked to see the various mock NBA draft sites consistently having Devin Ebanks slated to go higher than Da'Sean Butler, but they all did.

I really don't get it -- Butler scored much better, rebounded nearly as well, assisted more and shot 35% on 3 pointers vs. 10%(!!) for Ebanks.

As for Damion James, it is easy to undervalue him because of Texas' poor season, but he averaged more points and more boards than Kyle (despite playing 5 fewer minutes per game), and shot a significantly higher percentage than Kyle (50% vs. 42% from the field), and just about the same from 3 (38% to Kyle's 39%). Kyle's only advantage over James is he doubled him on assists.

weezie
03-24-2010, 08:19 PM
Argh! That mouthguard freaked me out when I first saw it during the tournament.

I wish the poor MSU kid who got his tooth broken had been wearing one!:eek: Green and white, of course...

Mudge
03-24-2010, 08:42 PM
In my earlier years I lived in LA and later in the DC area, and would regularly cruise the blacktops looking for the best games. It got pretty tense at times as I was "tested." Once I saw a couple of high school stars playing one on one, a white player and black player. I walked up and challenged the white player to a game, dispatched him and then challenged the black player. He seemed surprised but decided to humor me. Few players were used to the way I played lock-down, cat-quick D. After I beat him, the white guy was razzing him, "You let HIM beat you?" So yeah, some of us who have played street ball are quite familiar with the perceptions. I loved the game and still love it, and I appreciated the openess of Freeman's article. Just look at the Olympics, there are great athletes from all over the world, and in certain sports the dominant ones are largely from Eastern Europe!

... and what does your quick smell like?

greybeard
03-24-2010, 10:34 PM
I always think this argument is a little silly, and really just boils down to semantics. It's always people trying to argue that "athletic" means "good at sports", so how are these good white teams called unathletic, etc... which is silly, because "athletic", in the sense it is used these days, refers to how fast-twitch-quick and bouncy you are, not how overall effective you are at playing your sport.

Are people REALLY going to argue that Cornell and St. Mary's are as fast-twitch quick and bouncy as UK and Syracuse? Really?

It just so happens that many of these predominantly white teams do happen to get by on skill and execution more than explosive athleticism. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. "Athletic", as it is used today, means something different than "skilled", and I don't see the big deal.

Is a titchy quick athlete less smart than an athlete who can sucker anyone off balance enough to make a play? You say that and you get slammed, correctly, because it would not be so. Twitchy-quick is a function of quickness of mind. So, you take a guy like Foot from Cornell and he will use twitchy quick against the guy who has it, he will use his ability to show and move the ball around to gain advantage, to use his ability to fake a twitchy quick guy to freeze him and then out quick him, play to different speeds.

The real issue it seems to be is the "show" that sports have become. I still do not have a decent answer for why a guy who charges down the court and needs to hang on the rim in order not to kill himself after dunking is allowed to do that; the only reason is that the play sells. So, "athletic" becomes ever more a part of sport, twitchy quick guards who catch the ball on its side and take a gliding step are carrying the ball but it is not called because their getting to the rim sells.

The athlete/non-athlete dischotomy is, in my opinion, a function largely of ESPN. Fortunately, it still happens to be the case that the elegance that the offensive game can be still captures the eye which is one of the main reasons that Duke has been and remains a team that everyone loves to hate. They love to watch it and hate the fact that white and for the most part other non twitchy quick guys can beat the twitchy quick ones because they are better athletes and are smarter at the team game.

The false dichotomy among different athletic skills happens to divide along black and white lines but the real color that divides is green, in my opinion. That the rules of the games, see the rules regarding defending wide receivers, are skewed to advantage and showcase the spectacle of sports is a sorrowful reality when it serves to artificially divide athletes along racial lines and then artifically changes the plain meaning of words that can only be decoded along those same lines.

Green perverts and the perverted becomes acceptable. I dig this guy for calling it the way it is.

pfrduke
03-25-2010, 02:00 AM
... and what does your quick smell like?

French toast, obviously.

Highlander
03-25-2010, 09:16 AM
... and what does your quick smell like?

Did someone say Quickening?

Andre Buckner Fan
03-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Each of these mostly white teams is athletic as hell. You don't get to the Sweet 16 by not being elite athletes. You don't make the tournament by not being extremely athletic. Hell, you don't make a Division I basketball team by not being a supreme athlete.

Again, we were supposed to be beyond these infantile stereotypes and primal desires to stupidly categorize. Instead, here we are. Again.

These stereotypes continue to work both ways, too. If white players are smart and hard-working what does that make African American players?

Freeman is right and everyone who says that Duke isn't athletic should instantly get asked that question. It will shut them up pretty fast.

JG Nothing
03-25-2010, 10:51 AM
Freeman, as many of you know, is a sometimes controversial African-American writer for CBS. I would imagine that his latest article is sure to bring out some interesting comments on that site!

"My firm belief is Kansas lost because some of the Jayhawks players looked across the floor and saw a white team and thought: "We can take these guys. Jeez. Look at 'em."

Then the Jayhawks got smoked and didn't realize until the end they were playing a bunch of talented athletes."


http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/13107211/underdogs-bring-to-light-time-to-fight-trite-white-stereotypes

There is nothing controversial about Freeman's article. He gives the standard politically correct line, which may or may not be true. He does not, however, provide any real evidence one way or the other. I have no idea what the scientific community thinks about this issue although I am sure research is out there. I did a google search and found an interesting book, which received a mixed review from Scientific America:
http://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Athletes-Dominate-Sports-Afraid/dp/158648026X

Mudge
03-25-2010, 11:41 AM
French toast, obviously.

...as I suspected-- though with the (alleged) feline-like nature of his quickness, one wonders if it wouldn't have the unfortunate aroma of cat litter...

NM Duke Fan
03-25-2010, 12:11 PM
It smelled like the Guiness Stout I would drink between games to cool off, those blacktop courts get hot!

SoCalDukeFan
03-25-2010, 12:22 PM
Jason Sehorn was the last white cornerback in the NFL.

I have heard that he thinks white high school players are put in other positions by their coaches because they are white.

SoCal

Duke Mom
03-25-2010, 12:54 PM
Freeman is right. Racial stereotyping does work both ways and it's always so interesting to have an honest conversation about it. Freeman may or many not be correct about why Kansas lost - only the Jayhawks know what was in their own minds. Maybe they were tired, unfocused, overrated, or just played lousy that day.... or maybe we all just underestimated (and never heard of) Northern Iowa. It was however, an interesting way for Freeman to make his point.

On a side note, Duke haters don't just dislike us because of the racial make-up of our team, there is also the image of wealth attached to Duke, private school vs public (UNC) and all the assumed privileges that go along with the stereotype of a "rich kids" school. Thanks for posting this article, it was a good read.

BD80
03-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Even Bilas uses this phrase, he did tonight referring to WVa, but I don't recall it ever being used to refer to a white guy.

sagegrouse
03-25-2010, 08:52 PM
Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Even Bilas uses this phrase, he did tonight referring to WVa, but I don't recall it ever being used to refer to a white guy.

Jerry West.

sagegrouse

BD80
03-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Jerry West.

sagegrouse

Hmmm. Anyone that's played in the last 35 years? Or played college ball in the last 50 years?

BTW the logo only made the All-Defensive team four times.

Duvall
03-25-2010, 10:03 PM
Kentucky: Time to Embrace White Stereotypes.

pfrduke
03-25-2010, 10:24 PM
Hmmm. Anyone that's played in the last 35 years? Or played college ball in the last 50 years?

BTW the logo only made the All-Defensive team four times.

I think Joe Alexander was described as long. He played long, in any event.

I would call Mike Dunleavy long, except he wasn't much of a defender. ;)

COYS
03-25-2010, 11:49 PM
Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Even Bilas uses this phrase, he did tonight referring to WVa, but I don't recall it ever being used to refer to a white guy.

Bilas definitely described Mason as "long and athletic" earlier this year, even if "defender" wasn't used.

Jumbo
03-26-2010, 12:06 AM
Hmmm. Anyone that's played in the last 35 years? Or played college ball in the last 50 years?

BTW the logo only made the All-Defensive team four times.

Andrei Kirilenko comes to mind immediately.

moonpie23
03-26-2010, 07:10 AM
dirk?

JohnGalt
03-26-2010, 07:14 AM
The Birdman...Chris Anderson.

If there ever was a "long, athletic white man" or one who could be described as such, it is the Birdman

MChambers
03-26-2010, 08:42 AM
Why are almost all "athletic" white NBA players from outside of the U.S.? I've never been able to figure that one out.

JohnGalt
03-26-2010, 09:08 AM
Why are almost all "athletic" white NBA players from outside of the U.S.? I've never been able to figure that one out.

The downfall of the American white basketball player is equally as intriguing as the downfall of the American black baseball player.

Someone should really write an article on it....actually, subject is too taboo. It will never be written.

calltheobvious
03-26-2010, 10:22 AM
_irk?

Fixed to reflect that the player to whom you were referring has no 'D.'
--From an old Charles Barkley line.

sagegrouse
03-26-2010, 10:29 AM
Hmmm. Anyone that's played in the last 35 years? Or played college ball in the last 50 years?

BTW the logo only made the All-Defensive team four times.

Yep. But we were talking about college players, and the first thing any writer mentioned about Jerry "West Virginia" was his long arms.

sagegrouse

BD80
03-26-2010, 10:56 AM
Yep. But we were talking about college players, and the first thing any writer mentioned about Jerry "West Virginia" was his long arms.

sagegrouse

But the writers were using stone tablets back then!

I remember Jerry as a Laker, and he did have a long reach. I joke about his All-Defensive team membership, because it didn't exist for his first 10 or so years; he made it every year once it was created. He made life miserable for opposing guards and made it difficult to deliver good entry passes. Jerry could get up more than a foot over the rim. He was also a hell of a competitor. It would be fun to see Jerry in his prime go up against MJ in his prime.

greybeard
03-26-2010, 12:07 PM
But the writers were using stone tablets back then!

I remember Jerry as a Laker, and he did have a long reach. I joke about his All-Defensive team membership, because it didn't exist for his first 10 or so years; he made it every year once it was created. He made life miserable for opposing guards and made it difficult to deliver good entry passes. Jerry could get up more than a foot over the rim. He was also a hell of a competitor. It would be fun to see Jerry in his prime go up against MJ in his prime.

It was way fun seeing Jerry a tad past his prime against Clyde in his prime, at least if you were a Knick fan. ;)

sagegrouse
03-26-2010, 12:18 PM
It was way fun seeing Jerry a tad past his prime against Clyde in his prime, at least if you were a Knick fan. ;)

If a "tad past his prime," it was only a tad. I was living in LA when West decided to retire. The locals, press and fans alike, were stunned because he seemed to be as good as ever. As it turns out, he was horrified by Oscar Robertson's play and appearance and didn't want the same thing to happen to him. Oscar was an effective player but had blimped up considerably and was not the Oscar of old. Of course, Jerry has never "blimped up" in his entire 70 years on earth.

sagegrouse

jimsumner
03-26-2010, 02:04 PM
"Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Bobby Jones, anyone?

MChambers
03-26-2010, 02:15 PM
"Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Bobby Jones, anyone?

I always thought Gminski fit that description, too, but don't specifically remember anyone calling him that.

NM Duke Fan
03-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Interesting article on SI from Ross Tucker regarding two NFL aspirants and the stereotypes they are fighting: A white running back and a rhodes scholar safety.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ross_tucker/03/22/stereotypes/index.html?eref=sihp

Duke Mom
03-27-2010, 11:27 AM
Interesting article on SI from Ross Tucker regarding two NFL aspirants and the stereotypes they are fighting: A white running back and a rhodes scholar safety.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ross_tucker/03/22/stereotypes/index.html?eref=sihp


Another good one, thanks for posting. Always great to read about stereotype busters.

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-27-2010, 02:18 PM
Has a white guy ever been described as a "long-armed defender?"

Even Bilas uses this phrase, he did tonight referring to WVa, but I don't recall it ever being used to refer to a white guy.

Keith Van Horn comes to mind...

CDu
03-27-2010, 04:00 PM
Keith Van Horn comes to mind...

Van Horn had long arms, but he was never referred to for his defense.

Jim3k
03-27-2010, 07:07 PM
If you limit it to college players, I can think of Tom Chambers, but defense was not what he was known for. Played it well, though. Also, Jack Sikma played college ball at a small school (Illinois Wesleyan, then NAIA), though he had a wonderful 14-year NBA career due to his long arms. And you don't get to be a 7-time NBA all-star without defensive capability.

Duke Sixties would give us Jack Marin (*only* 6-7, but with a darn good wingspan and outstanding defensive talent.

As for more current players, I'd have to concede that they seem to be relatively rare.

Lennies
03-29-2010, 04:25 PM
Taylor King gets mentioned as a "long armed rebounder" on broadcasts. They usually don't say much about his defense, though. :)

tecumseh
03-30-2010, 07:56 PM
I have watched a lot of basketball over the years and one of the comments that puzzles me is calling this team "unathletic". Perhaps it is just laziness and that might have been true in past years of Duke teams and so they are just staying with it. But I think it is stereotyping. Let's look at the team. Nolan Smith watch his cross over leading to a jam plays very athletic, Zoubek is a 7 footer and except for a guy named Olajuwon all 7 footers are somewhat slow but he is hardly slower than average for a 7 footer, Lance Thomas I think we can all agree is pretty athletic. Which leaves Singler and sorry the guy can cover anyone 1 through 4, can dribble, shoot, rebound even impressively jam and he is 6 foot 9. Then there is Scheyer which maybe he isn't a sky walker and there might be an argument here but I really don't buy it.

Which leaves us with the Plumlee brothers who are tremendously athletic for 6 ft 10in guys especially Mason he has had some followup jam attempts this year that made my jaw drop. They are just white and it is easy to call the black guys athletic and white guys "lunch pail" kind of players but some of these people need to open their eyes and just watch the game. Yeah Duke hustles like mad but one reason they get all those offensive rebounds is Duke's big men are usually more athletic than the team they are playing.