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DukeDevil
03-23-2010, 08:01 AM
Zoubs going perfect in the last game made me think of something...does a missed tip in count as a missed shot? I know a made tip in counts both as a made shot and a rebound...just wondering if it's a magical move that can only help you statistically. I tried googling it but the answers only seem to refer to made tip ins and not missed ones.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-23-2010, 08:29 AM
Zoubs going perfect in the last game made me think of something...does a missed tip in count as a missed shot? I know a made tip in counts both as a made shot and a rebound...just wondering if it's a magical move that can only help you statistically. I tried googling it but the answers only seem to refer to made tip ins and not missed ones.
Yes, a missed tip counts as a rebound and a missed shot. For 3 1/2 years, that was SOP for Zoubs, usually getting 2 (or 3) rebounds and hopefully going 1 for 2 (or 3) on shots... A real stat padder! He's doing it much better now!

devildeac
03-23-2010, 08:37 AM
Yes, a missed tip counts as a rebound and a missed shot. For 3 1/2 years, that was SOP for Zoubs, usually getting 2 (or 3) rebounds and hopefully going 1 for 2 (or 3) on shots... A real stat padder! He's doing it much better now!

He even snatched a long rebound on one of his 2 missed FT on Sunday which futher "padded" his rebound stats...:rolleyes:

Honestly, IIRC the play, it was quite a hustle play and not just the height/arm length on his part to corral that carom.

callaway
03-23-2010, 08:45 AM
Zoubs going perfect in the last game made me think of something...does a missed tip in count as a missed shot? I know a made tip in counts both as a made shot and a rebound...just wondering if it's a magical move that can only help you statistically. I tried googling it but the answers only seem to refer to made tip ins and not missed ones.

Just wondering this morning...how do you have a missed tip "in"...if it's missed it doesn't go in

LetItBD08
03-23-2010, 08:53 AM
Sort of on topic but a slightly different direction...Over these past few months, I've continued to be amazed by how much Zoubek and Cousins have separated themselves from everyone in D1 in terms of offensive rebound percentage. It's not even close.

http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=ORPct
Zou's 21.4%, Cousins is 20.0%, next closest is 17.5%

Calculations here: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/help_with_team_page/

Offensive rebounding percentage (OR%): This is the percentage of possible offensive rebounds a player gets and computed as PlayerOR / [%Min * (Team OR + Opp. DR)]. The denominator is scaled based on the percentage of a team’s minutes played by the player.

For what it's worth, Zoubek plays 17.9 minutes while Cousins plays 23.3 per game.

DukeDevil
03-23-2010, 08:57 AM
Just wondering this morning...how do you have a missed tip "in"...if it's missed it doesn't go in

touche'

a tip out?

slower
03-23-2010, 09:10 AM
Sort of on topic but a slightly different direction...Over these past few months, I've continued to be amazed by how much Zoubek and Cousins have separated themselves from everyone in D1 in terms of offensive rebound percentage. It's not even close.

http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=ORPct
Zou's 21.4%, Cousins is 20.0%, next closest is 17.5%

Calculations here: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/help_with_team_page/


For what it's worth, Zoubek plays 17.9 minutes while Cousins plays 23.3 per game.

Maybe we'll get to see the "mano a mano" battle that is obviously called for.

Listen, if Zoubs could come close to neutralizing Cousins, that would be epic. We shall see...

COYS
03-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Sort of on topic but a slightly different direction...Over these past few months, I've continued to be amazed by how much Zoubek and Cousins have separated themselves from everyone in D1 in terms of offensive rebound percentage. It's not even close.

http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=ORPct
Zou's 21.4%, Cousins is 20.0%, next closest is 17.5%

Calculations here: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/help_with_team_page/


For what it's worth, Zoubek plays 17.9 minutes while Cousins plays 23.3 per game.

Of course, the mpg stats are a little off for Zoubs because he didn't move into the starting lineup until late in the season and has played substantially more minutes in the second half than he did in the first. I bet their mpg numbers are quite similar, now.

DevilHorns
03-23-2010, 10:49 AM
Cousins plays 23.3 per game.

I haven't watched that many UK games (ok only 1, the UNC-UK game), but from what I see on sportscenter every night, Cousins is a double-double machine. I didn't realize he played such few minutes.

riverside6
03-23-2010, 10:58 AM
using our Duke scouting report page (http://scacchoops.com/ACCRoster.asp?sTeam=DU&bView=3), you can see that Brian Zoubek is 23-34 on tip-ins over the past 2 years.

KyDevilinIL
03-23-2010, 11:03 AM
Cousins is a load. He's just so powerful down there.

Both Cousins and Z were instant whistles early this season, but both have done a better job knock on wood in Z's case in fouling less, or at least in a less damaging manner.

I won't say it would take all four or five of our bigs to neutralize UK's interior, but with Cousins and Patterson, and even Perry Stevenson, down there, it would definitely require a team effort.

But enough on that. We're 80 long minutes from worrying about that.

hurleyfor3
03-23-2010, 11:12 AM
just wondering if it's a magical move that can only help you statistically.

The "magical move" is to draw a foul in the act of shooting. It's not a FG attempt if it doesn't go in, but obviously counts if it does. Christian Laettner was the benefit of this convention in the '92 Kentucky game. He had several misses but was fouled on all of them.

dball
03-23-2010, 11:51 AM
Just wondering this morning...how do you have a missed tip "in"...if it's missed it doesn't go in

Similar to a near miss. Shouldn't it be a "near collision".

duk3
03-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Just wondering this morning...how do you have a missed tip "in"...if it's missed it doesn't go in

as someone who has helped keep ncaa statistics, it is only officially recorded as a tip if it goes in. if it does not go in, then it is recorded as a layup in the box score.

as was already stated, you get a rebound and a made basket for tips. you also get a rebound if you are the person who get the ball after a blocked shot or the team who gets possession gets a team rebound if the ball does not stay in bounds, because all missed shots have to have a rebound.

hurleyfor3
03-23-2010, 12:12 PM
all missed shots have to have a rebound.

Unless the gameclock has expired, or unless the shotclock has expired without a reset, correct? Is it a rebound if you catch an airball?

bluesin
03-23-2010, 12:29 PM
Similar to a near miss. Shouldn't it be a "near collision".

That bothered me for a while when I was younger, until I came to the realization that it was a "near" miss instead of a "far" miss. In other words near is describing the degree to which the planes passed within each other and still missed hitting. Not that this is at all relevant to the discussion :p

calltheobvious
03-23-2010, 12:41 PM
Unless the gameclock has expired, or unless the shotclock has expired without a reset, correct? Is it a rebound if you catch an airball?

An airball that results in a shot-clock violation goes in the books as a turnover for the "shooter," not a shot attempt, so there wouldn't be a rebound on that play.

duk3
03-23-2010, 12:43 PM
Unless the gameclock has expired, or unless the shotclock has expired without a reset, correct? Is it a rebound if you catch an airball?

technically the ncaa says that all missed shots have to have a rebound. however sometimes what we see as shots at the end of a shot clock that result in a violation because they didn't hit the rim or those shots that miss everything at the end of the half or the game are not actually recorded as shots in the box score and play-by-play

if, in those situations, the shot has no chance of going in, you don't have to record it as a shot. if however the shot is recorded, then there has to be a rebound associated with it. whoever catches the ball gets the rebound and if no one does, then it is a team rebound.

and of course, as calltheobvious states above, the end of the shot clock ones do count as turnovers rather than shots.

jjasper0729
03-23-2010, 03:14 PM
it is only officially recorded as a tip if it goes in. if it does not go in, then it is recorded as a layup in the box score.

it depends on what stat software people are using. in Cameron (using statcrew software), any make or miss inside the 3-point arc shows up as a fg/fga. it's in the play by play that the distinction occurs. in Cameron, a missed tip actually shows up as a missed tip in the play by play (as does a made tip). To my knowledge, the rest of the acc uses statcrew as well (save one.. guess who).

sagegrouse
03-23-2010, 03:30 PM
Similar to a near miss. Shouldn't it be a "near collision".

Good suggestion. It's better than the obvious (?) expansion of "near miss:" "near-ly a disaster but a miss"

sagegrouse
'Gosh, do I hate working on my taxes'

duk3
03-23-2010, 05:10 PM
it depends on what stat software people are using. in Cameron (using statcrew software), any make or miss inside the 3-point arc shows up as a fg/fga. it's in the play by play that the distinction occurs. in Cameron, a missed tip actually shows up as a missed tip in the play by play (as does a made tip). To my knowledge, the rest of the acc uses statcrew as well (save one.. guess who).

statcrew is actually the program that i am familiar with and the entry code only allows for "good" or made tips. a higher version came out this years, so perhaps this is a new change to this one. i have not used the older one.

if you go to the box score you can find the play-by-play. if you look at it, you will only see made tip, not any misses. at least this is the case if you have the newer version, which perhaps the acc is not using. however, i did look at the last four duke play-by-plays and the only time something is called a tip is with a made basket. for example, zoubek did not get credited for any missed tips in the last game.