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View Full Version : The Reason for Scheyer's Shooting Struggles



NM Duke Fan
03-22-2010, 03:02 PM
"You want to win, you don't wanna go home so for me I need to find a way to relax. I know I can shoot the ball. I'm putting a little too much pressure on it, and I need to look at my mechanics, maybe there could be something there too."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/7275127/

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 03:08 PM
"You want to win, you don't wanna go home so for me I need to find a way to relax. I know I can shoot the ball. I'm putting a little too much pressure on it, and I need to look at my mechanics, maybe there could be something there too."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/7275127/



Sometimes, you think about it too much. Jon's greatest shot of the last few weeks -- the turn-around bang-bang at the end of the GT ACCT game -- was pure instinct.

I trust that he'll right the shooting, and again note that he is providing great defense and great vocal leadership. I want him on the floor, regardless of how he's shooting.

JJ went through slumps, Trajan went through slumps. They come, they go. Jon will be fine, and when he has that break-out game it will be lights out. So keep on shooting, Jon, and know that you have a great team that has your back.

noyac
03-22-2010, 03:16 PM
I saw in the ACCT that he was taking much longer to shoot than he had all season and now in the NCAA's he is getting very frustrated when he misses. I remember against Ark-PB, Coach Collins talking to him and you could just see the frustration on Jon's face.

I think the frustration comes from him wanting to win and help the team so badly that when he doesn't perform well he starts feeling it is his fault if the team loses. He needs to realize that if your shot isn't falling it doesn't mean you aren't helping the team it means you should focus that much harder on playing D, finding other people (assists), and hustling so that the lack of points from you is made up for with other tangibles and intangibles.

I think he is doing just that and focusing on other area's of his game when the shots aren't falling but the frustration is not going away.

NM Duke Fan
03-22-2010, 03:25 PM
As I tell my Qigong and Ancient Awareness Skills students--sometimes you have to lose your mind and come to your senses!

airowe
03-22-2010, 03:28 PM
I thought everyone already knew this. Jon's shooting struggles are a result of Bob Green not putting down enough reverse mojo to counter his proclamations in the Scheyer Stats thread.

uh_no
03-22-2010, 03:29 PM
you're all wrong!

obviously it's tired legs and k overplaying his starters.......pause......not

KyDevilinIL
03-22-2010, 03:42 PM
Well here's another situation where the odd depth perception/sightlines in the Houston facility could be a wildcard. Is it going to further mess with his head, or will the new environment help him break out of the funk?

Or is that concept entirely overrated? Most teams seem to adapt perfectly well to these football venues.

BlueintheFace
03-22-2010, 03:51 PM
I thought everyone already knew this. Jon's shooting struggles are a result of Bob Green not putting down enough reverse mojo to counter his proclamations in the Scheyer Stats thread.

Jason Evans really toyed with that mojo too in the ScheyerStats thread. Those two are pretty much solely responsible IMO, since that article says Jon isn't shooting well because of pressure and we all know that Jon is unaffected by pressure... right? (nervous noises)

Although, counter argument: Now that Jon has passed 2,000, the counter mojo issue is gone. Smooth sailing from here on out (knock on wood).

jv001
03-22-2010, 03:54 PM
I saw in the ACCT that he was taking much longer to shoot than he had all season and now in the NCAA's he is getting very frustrated when he misses. I remember against Ark-PB, Coach Collins talking to him and you could just see the frustration on Jon's face.

I think the frustration comes from him wanting to win and help the team so badly that when he doesn't perform well he starts feeling it is his fault if the team loses. He needs to realize that if your shot isn't falling it doesn't mean you aren't helping the team it means you should focus that much harder on playing D, finding other people (assists), and hustling so that the lack of points from you is made up for with other tangibles and intangibles.

I think he is doing just that and focusing on other area's of his game when the shots aren't falling but the frustration is not going away.

I think we can now discount that Jon's troubles are because of tired legs. His defense seems to be good. Matter of fact, I think his defense has gotten better. He's moving well and I don't think it's his back. Coach K said he was physically well. So that leaves a mental problem. I agree that Jon's not shooting the ball as quick. I always felt Jon had a pretty quick release, but no so quick lately. Looks like he's thinking/pressing before he let's it go. As for his drives to the goal, I think he's not going up strong. Could be from all the mugging he took in the ACC season. A Good shooting game will get his confidence back. We need him at his best to reach the FF. Go Duke!

DevilHorns
03-22-2010, 03:55 PM
Or is that concept entirely overrated? Most teams seem to adapt perfectly well to these football venues.

Don't they have a full 4 days to practice in this setting? I think they'll be fine. As fans we over-analyze everything.

lpd1982
03-22-2010, 03:58 PM
I've read and heard so much about basketball in the past week that I can't say where I heard or read it in the last day but someone asked Jon pointedly where his shot was. He answered , "It's in Houston." then, "I'll get it back in Durham and it'll be in Houston." Damn straight.

roywhite
03-22-2010, 04:02 PM
Jon is a thoughtful, sensitive guy...no, really he is, and that's a good thing in most aspects of life. It's even good for some things in basketball---studying the game, valuing the team concept, etc.

But for pure shooting, it's probably better to be a no-conscience gunner, who knows the next shot is going in even if he just missed 10 of them. Jon had some open looks on Sunday where he had plenty of time...maybe too much time to think about the shot.

If this slump doesn't work itself out, maybe it would be better to run him off some screens and curls so he has to put up a quick shot (and not over-think things)?

It's a tribute to Jon that he continues to play the other aspects of the game in a superb fashion while struggling with his shot.

jacone21
03-22-2010, 04:02 PM
There was a play early in the game yesterday (about halfway through the first half) where Jon caught the ball near the top of the key and was wide open. He hesitated and then took the shot, which he missed. That hesitation was clear evidence of this problem. Jon, just pull the trigger in rhythm, man.

ElSid
03-22-2010, 04:12 PM
it's been a long time since he's shot the ball well. this rules out tired legs (his legs haven't been tired since january right?). it could be mental. or it could be mechanics. something is weird about his mechanics to begin with...hence the ball spinning sort of sideways upon release. if zoubek and the plumlees and thomas continue to pick up the slack, the most important thing is for jon just to keep putting up quality minutes in all other respects, as several of you have pointed out already. i love that we barely turn the ball over and a lot of that credit has to go to jon.

from an optimistic perspective, the fact that jon isn't shooting well could be a blessing in disguise. creating more opportunities for others to shine. providing a better experience and more confidence to other players. and then if in houston jon figures out how to score again, it's like going from from the cold pool at the water park to the warm pool. it's gonna feel great.

CDu
03-22-2010, 04:21 PM
it's been a long time since he's shot the ball well. this rules out tired legs (his legs haven't been tired since january right?). it could be mental. or it could be mechanics. something is weird about his mechanics to begin with...hence the ball spinning sort of sideways upon release. if zoubek and the plumlees and thomas continue to pick up the slack, the most important thing is for jon just to keep putting up quality minutes in all other respects, as several of you have pointed out already. i love that we barely turn the ball over and a lot of that credit has to go to jon.

from an optimistic perspective, the fact that jon isn't shooting well could be a blessing in disguise. creating more opportunities for others to shine. providing a better experience and more confidence to other players. and then if in houston jon figures out how to score again, it's like going from from the cold pool at the water park to the warm pool. it's gonna feel great.

Technically, that first sentence isn't true. Scheyer shot it pretty well in the opening round game (3 of 5 on 3s, 4 of 7 overall). He hasn't shot it well consistently in a long time. He's only had a handful of strong shooting games since the end of January, mixed in with a lot of clunkers.

Vincetaylor
03-22-2010, 04:25 PM
I think Jon should start driving to the hoop more and taking some shots closer in. He is very capable of scoring points this way and it could go a long way in restoring his confidence....if that is really the issue.

heyman25
03-22-2010, 04:38 PM
Not really true,his dribble drive from the baseline was an airball against Cal. He misses more than he makes in his drives. Nolan is the star of the dribble drive. Its not Jon's back its not fatigue. He is missing his shots period. He needs to work on it between now and Friday.

BlueintheFace
03-22-2010, 04:40 PM
Don't they have a full 4 days to practice in this setting? I think they'll be fine. As fans we over-analyze everything.

They still have to go to school.

Kedsy
03-22-2010, 04:43 PM
I think Jon should start driving to the hoop more and taking some shots closer in. He is very capable of scoring points this way and it could go a long way in restoring his confidence....if that is really the issue.

Except that's kind of been his problem for the entire slump. Since (and including) the Florida State game on Jan 27, Jon has shot 38.4% on this three-point attempts (which is actually a little better than his career percentage of 38.0%), but only 30.9% on his two-point attempts.

I agree there's a lot of value for a slumping player to see the ball go through the hoop, but at least in the past month and a half, taking close-in shots doesn't appear to be an effective way for Jon to accomplish that.

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 04:50 PM
Jon needs to breathe out of his eyelids like the lava lizards of the Galapagos Islands.


That, or just watch some silly movie before the game to relax.

greybeard
03-22-2010, 05:00 PM
Jon's movement tells me that there is something wrong on his left side. His pelvis, when he is running, watch the left side as he lifts the left foot from the floor behind or underneath him and brings his knee up and left foot forward. Normally, in a well organized pelvis the pelvis on that side moves up towards the shoulder. Jon's does but it seems herky, jerky, contrived, effortful, in a way that bespeaks that something is stuck. I noticed several games ago in the ACC Tournament that he appeared to be dragging the left leg somewhat in running.

This is soon to be my business. Well, not my business, but I will be a certified Feldenkrais practitioner which, among many other skills, requires a finely honed ability to observe and discern differences from the norm, differences between two sides, differences that bespeak something's being out of whack. Jon is out of whack. Does that mean he is "injured." Not if you went to a physician; absolutely not!

Jon can "make" the left side of his pelvis move as it normally does (I cannot say what his normal way of moving it is because I never looked that carefully) but I can tell you that what I'm seeing is out of the norm for Jon.

So, he has to concentrate more on that pelvis, hip, leg in doing everything much more than usual and the results will be much spottier, less predictable. What generates power in the body, boys and girls, what is the power center. That's right, the pelvic area.

That's the list.

If anyone knows K or anyone else associated with that team, they really should contact a high-end feldenkrais practitioner and get him to whereever the sweet 16 is, and then the final 4. What we call a functional integration lesson will do tons to improve Jon and leave him with much more freedom, improve his functioning smoothly perhaps beyond what it was before the episode that caused the problem to flare (I'm guessing the put down in GT II).

I know just the guy, but he doesn't work cheap. Far from it. Think lawyer prices just about. No, not NYC lawyer prices, but not Podunk either. What's the best shot at a championship worth. Tell them to get in touch. I'm happy to hook em up, if not with my guy, who is the absolute best, then someone up there.

Jon's shot is off because the left side of his pelvis is not functioning normally for him. That's the list.

Precisely what's causing it? Not a simple answer and probably not just one thing. That's why they pay my guy the big bucks--because he is a genuis at figuring these things out and developing a strategy for helping a person disintangle. Yeap, I'm reasonably certain.

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 05:10 PM
" . . . in a well organized pelvis . . ."

How, exactly, does a pelvis organize?

I'm sticking with the fact that his eyelids are clogged and he can't breathe through them properly.

DevilHorns
03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
Jon's movement tells me that there is something wrong on his left side. His pelvis, when he is running, watch the left side as he lifts the left foot from the floor behind or underneath him and brings his knee up and left foot forward. Normally, in a well organized pelvis the pelvis on that side moves up towards the shoulder. Jon's does but it seems herky, jerky, contrived, effortful, in a way that bespeaks that something is stuck. I noticed several games ago in the ACC Tournament that he appeared to be dragging the left leg somewhat in running.

This is soon to be my business. Well, not my business, but I will be a certified Feldenkrais practitioner which, among many other skills, requires a finely honed ability to observe and discern differences from the norm, differences between two sides, differences that bespeak something's being out of whack. Jon is out of whack. Does that mean he is "injured." Not if you went to a physician; absolutely not!

Jon can "make" the left side of his pelvis move as it normally does (I cannot say what his normal way of moving it is because I never looked that carefully) but I can tell you that what I'm seeing is out of the norm for Jon.

So, he has to concentrate more on that pelvis, hip, leg in doing everything much more than usual and the results will be much spottier, less predictable. What generates power in the body, boys and girls, what is the power center. That's right, the pelvic area.


His lift-off and shooting routine may be altered by some physical injury, yes. But we have no evidence of this. None. I don't think the coaches or Jon would purposely shy away from revealing any sort of nagging injury. To me it's more likely a brain problem, ie, it's in his head. And yes, your head can alter your shot, ask any basketball player this. Anyone who is in a slump can "feel" that their shot is different, that their rhythm is out of sync. He may have some physical injury, but I doubt a 4 day intervention from some specialist would really make a difference at this point. At this point, its all about the numbers. He needs to hit the gym and keep tossing them up to regain his confidence and his routine. Thats the best option here, IMHO.

DukeDevil
03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
why is the main article on Scheyer passing 2000 "JK to 2K"? specifically the first K (I get the 2K part)

CDu
03-22-2010, 05:19 PM
why is the main article on Scheyer passing 2000 "JK to 2K"? specifically the first K (I get the 2K part)

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps a psychological slip and reference to one of the DBR founders?

Saratoga2
03-22-2010, 05:25 PM
He has been missing close in on shots he would have made earlier in the year. He has also shot a couple of air balls on open shots. Clearly something is going on with him but I have no clue what it is.

Starter
03-22-2010, 05:26 PM
Greybeard's analysis sounds a lot like "body work," where they figure out one aspect of the body that isn't functioning correctly and work to adjust that. If he can see that watching him on television -- and I'm not saying he can't -- I'd like an appointment if you're around here. I've had some nagging injuries lately. =)

Jon's quote sounds to me a lot like the mind is willing but the body is not completely able. I still think he's worn down from the rigors of a long season with no backup in which he's had to play heavy minutes and take a great deal of the ball-handling, offensive and defensive load early on, before Singler and Zoubek turned it on. He simply doesn't pass my eye test, and his statistics follow suit. He seemed to go off a cliff where everything was short after a seven-game stretch in late January and early February in which he played no fewer than 38 minutes, and he never shot the same after that. I'm not interested in getting into (another) argument about it. We've seen this play before.

The great thing about Jon is that his versatility allows him to contribute so much, even when his shot is off, and he's looked a little more energized lately than I thought he did during the first two rounds of the ACC's, when not only was his shot off but he seemed lethargic on defense and while setting up the offense.

I'm a big Scheyer guy and I'm proud of him -- it's not often I end up with Jewish sports heroes -- and I own his jersey. I just think this team has a golden opportunity in front of it, and we need the third member of the Big 3 to figure out a way to join the other two (and Zoubek!) in helping us truly grasp that golden ring. I pray that he physically, mentally and emotionally can do that.

dukeimac
03-22-2010, 05:33 PM
I think it is in his head too.

I began to notice this when the talk heated up about him being the ACC POY. Jon is a good player but modest person. I think this type of talk bothers him. Along with this came the comparisons between him and Grevis. This was then highlighted when they played at Maryland. Talk was that game would decide the ACC POY and Duke lost. Grevis gets the ACC POY. I'm hoping that with Grevis out of the tournament Jon will be able to shake this. After all, Duke is still in it and Maryland is gone.

Funny thing is, the dumbest things can get into a guys head (like having to eat the same meal before every game at the same time) and sometimes it takes the dumbest things to get it out.

I'm hoping that dumb Grevis has left town!

ElSid
03-22-2010, 05:45 PM
I think it is in his head too.

I began to notice this when the talk heated up about him being the ACC POY. Jon is a good player but modest person. I think this type of talk bothers him. Along with this came the comparisons between him and Grevis. This was then highlighted when they played at Maryland. Talk was that game would decide the ACC POY and Duke lost. Grevis gets the ACC POY. I'm hoping that with Grevis out of the tournament Jon will be able to shake this. After all, Duke is still in it and Maryland is gone.

Hmm, you may be right. That's the first time I noticed him start to look a bit shaky. I wonder if it was the pressure of the situation, or the fact that classless Muriland fans were telling him to go Eff himself all night, on national TV no less. These kids face a lot of physical and mental challenges. I'm pretty sure Scheyer's going to play a fine game on Friday, though, regardless of shooting percentage. He will help his team win.

Duvall
03-22-2010, 05:56 PM
Or maybe he's a streaky shooter.

dukelifer
03-22-2010, 06:00 PM
Here is the question for me. Does Scheyer feel his shot is off or does it still feel good coming off his hand? If it does not feel right- then I think Jon should minimize shooting and focus on being a facilitator and getting to the hoop and fouled. Yesterday he was missing badly- and he continued to force some shots. Yes shooters need to shoot- but Nolan was on fire (and has been an excellent shooter all year) and it really doesn't matter if Nolan gets 30 and Scheyer gets 5. You feed the hot hand. Scheyer can do so much on both ends but if his shot does not feel right- missing threes badly hurts the team given the long run outs. If it does feel right- it may just be a matter of time- but he is struggling. I expect Jon will work it out but in a game- if the shots are not going early- he should try to be an assist man. The big guys seemed to play much better when they get more shots.

cspan37421
03-22-2010, 06:04 PM
Is he 21? I can think of something red that will loosen him up before a game. Not too good for hydration needs, but still, those TV timeouts will get him a chance to catch up.

sagegrouse
03-22-2010, 06:12 PM
My diagnosis is as follows:

Jon is the one player who has to do some of everything, including keeping track of all of his teammates on offense. Scoring is secondary. If his role were more like JJ, I don't think he would be having the same problems with shooting percentages.

sagegrouse

Richard Berg
03-22-2010, 06:14 PM
Does Scheyer feel his shot is off or does it still feel good coming off his hand?
That was my question as well. Missing 11 shots in a game is peanuts compared with the hundreds & hundreds that a top flight guard takes every week in practice. What do they look like? Feel like? How do those answers compare to his midseason slump last year?

I'm sure the coaches have been monitoring this for a lot longer than we have and will take appropriate action.

CDu
03-22-2010, 06:15 PM
My diagnosis is as follows:

Jon is the one player who has to do some of everything, including keeping track of all of his teammates on offense. Scoring is secondary. If his role were more like JJ, I don't think he would be having the same problems with shooting percentages.

sagegrouse

Coach K has shifted a lot of that burden off of Scheyer in the last couple of weeks. In the ACC tournament and the first weekend of the NCAA tournament, Scheyer spent a lot more time off the ball, with Smith taking more of the primary ballhandling duties.

jkidd31
03-22-2010, 06:28 PM
We don't need Jon shooting well when we have Zoubs shooting 6/6. :)

BD80
03-22-2010, 06:41 PM
Except that's kind of been his problem for the entire slump. Since (and including) the Florida State game on Jan 27, Jon has shot 38.4% on this three-point attempts (which is actually a little better than his career percentage of 38.0%), but only 30.9% on his two-point attempts. ...

Jon has thrown up some gonzo bad two point shots in that stretch, many anticipating contact and a call or, having felt contact, anticipating a call. And the call didn't come. His three point stroke is there, they are just rattling out.

If anyone can help Jon's psyche, it is Chris Collins. Chris can convince Jon to just keep shooting no matter what and trust that the stroke will come back. Chris had some horrendous streaks and some god-awful shots and never stopped shooting. There was that one time he missed the entire backboard with a shot and knocked out a student in the stands, and yet he just kept shooting despite three assistant coaches draped all over him shouting "NO" and the rest of the team refusing to pass the ball to him.

Shooters shoot. Jon will be fine. We should have a poll on which game Jon explodes out of the slump. I'll choose Purdue.

BD80
03-22-2010, 06:48 PM
... I'm a big Scheyer guy and I'm proud of him -- it's not often I end up with Jewish sports heroes ...

It is easier than finding a great Irish chef ... :rolleyes:

monkey
03-22-2010, 06:57 PM
If anyone can help Jon's psyche, it is Chris Collins. Chris can convince Jon to just keep shooting no matter what and trust that the stroke will come back. Chris had some horrendous streaks and some god-awful shots and never stopped shooting. There was that one time he missed the entire backboard with a shot and knocked out a student in the stands, and yet he just kept shooting despite three assistant coaches draped all over him shouting "NO" and the rest of the team refusing to pass the ball to him.

I vividly recall Collins shooting like this. All of you can get on me all you want but I pray that Chris does not teach Scheyer to shoot in this fashion. Collins shot us out of several games all by himself back in the day.

DukeGirl4ever
03-22-2010, 07:11 PM
Jon had a steal off an in-bounds play against Cal (led to a Nolan lay-up) and I was very surprised that he got off the floor so well. In that play, the back, hip, pelvis, whatever....everything looked ok.

Anyone else know the play I'm talking about?

dukeimac
03-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Hmm, you may be right. That's the first time I noticed him start to look a bit shaky. I wonder if it was the pressure of the situation, or the fact that classless Muriland fans were telling him to go Eff himself all night, on national TV no less. These kids face a lot of physical and mental challenges. I'm pretty sure Scheyer's going to play a fine game on Friday, though, regardless of shooting percentage. He will help his team win.

I'm not saying it was the Maryland game per say. I think it actually started before that. I'm not saying that Jon isn't dealing with the pressure either. I personally think Jon is just the type of guy who doesn't like the focus on him, he wants it on the team and he is uncomfortable when folks talk about him carrying the load or being the POY over his teammates.

Actually, I think he is such a TEAM guy that any focus on him makes him feel uncomfortable. I think he felt that with the ACC POY talk he was uncomfortable because he wanted the TEAM to get the credit and then the talk about him and Grevis upset the apple cart more. Then with the loss to Maryland it was he had to prove he was good. Just one piece of pressure after another has gotten him out of sink.

I hoping the pressure is off, Grevis is gone so no comparisons to what is happening to the other ACC POY candidate, his team is doing better. No more talk about the ACC POY so I just hope he hangs loose now.

Starter
03-22-2010, 07:51 PM
It is easier than finding a great Irish chef ... :rolleyes:

Haha, love it. I ran into former Dolphins quarterback Jay Fiedler (and notable Jewish athlete) randomly while watching Kyrie at the Primetime Shootout. He was stunned to hear that I owned his jersey!


Jon had a steal off an in-bounds play against Cal (led to a Nolan lay-up) and I was very surprised that he got off the floor so well. In that play, the back, hip, pelvis, whatever....everything looked ok.

Anyone else know the play I'm talking about?

That play was really terrific. Regardless of shooting percentages, whatever, we'll all remember Scheyer as a special player, and that's a perfect example of why.

oldnavy
03-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Jon's movement tells me that there is something wrong on his left side. His pelvis, when he is running, watch the left side as he lifts the left foot from the floor behind or underneath him and brings his knee up and left foot forward. Normally, in a well organized pelvis the pelvis on that side moves up towards the shoulder. Jon's does but it seems herky, jerky, contrived, effortful, in a way that bespeaks that something is stuck. I noticed several games ago in the ACC Tournament that he appeared to be dragging the left leg somewhat in running.

This is soon to be my business. Well, not my business, but I will be a certified Feldenkrais practitioner which, among many other skills, requires a finely honed ability to observe and discern differences from the norm, differences between two sides, differences that bespeak something's being out of whack. Jon is out of whack. Does that mean he is "injured." Not if you went to a physician; absolutely not!

Jon can "make" the left side of his pelvis move as it normally does (I cannot say what his normal way of moving it is because I never looked that carefully) but I can tell you that what I'm seeing is out of the norm for Jon.

So, he has to concentrate more on that pelvis, hip, leg in doing everything much more than usual and the results will be much spottier, less predictable. What generates power in the body, boys and girls, what is the power center. That's right, the pelvic area.

That's the list.

If anyone knows K or anyone else associated with that team, they really should contact a high-end feldenkrais practitioner and get him to whereever the sweet 16 is, and then the final 4. What we call a functional integration lesson will do tons to improve Jon and leave him with much more freedom, improve his functioning smoothly perhaps beyond what it was before the episode that caused the problem to flare (I'm guessing the put down in GT II).

I know just the guy, but he doesn't work cheap. Far from it. Think lawyer prices just about. No, not NYC lawyer prices, but not Podunk either. What's the best shot at a championship worth. Tell them to get in touch. I'm happy to hook em up, if not with my guy, who is the absolute best, then someone up there.

Jon's shot is off because the left side of his pelvis is not functioning normally for him. That's the list.

Precisely what's causing it? Not a simple answer and probably not just one thing. That's why they pay my guy the big bucks--because he is a genuis at figuring these things out and developing a strategy for helping a person disintangle. Yeap, I'm reasonably certain.

That explains your freaky fascination with feet on the thread about UNC ankle injuries!

Seriously I think my pelvis got a little unorganized back in the early 80's, but now that Disco is dead, it is better now.

MChambers
03-22-2010, 08:32 PM
That explains your freaky fascination with feet on the thread about UNC ankle injuries!

Seriously I think my pelvis got a little unorganized back in the early 80's, but now that Disco is dead, it is better now.

Wouldn't that be "disorganized"?

DukeGirl4ever, that was a great play, especially with Jon having the presence of mind to hit Nolan streaking up the court. His defense looks fine. It's just his offense that isn't so good, especially his shooting. So maybe it's something like that Greybeard said, [to summarize] some sort of hitch in Jon's movements. I can't believe it's anything serious, from a health point of view.

As I recall, Jon had a pretty big slump last year, and snapped out of it wonderfully. And I know that two months ago we were all wondering where Kyle's jumper had gone.

Maybe Jon turns it around this week.

basket1544
03-22-2010, 09:13 PM
Jon's always had a hitch in his shot. His 4 free throws yesterday all had that hitch to them and they went in. His 3 pointer that went in had the hitch too. It's his shot. I think he just needs to stop thinking about it and just come off the curls and the screens like he always has and fire it up. Easier said than done. All shooters go through slumps and they shoot to get out of them. One of the great things about Jon is he is still successfully running an offense without looking to shoot too much at the sacrifice of the game. Nolan has helped tremendously with this.

-bdbd
03-22-2010, 11:38 PM
Then again, we could all be reading into something that really isn't there. Just possibly he's got something minor going on or otherwise into his head, and is about to go 10-for-10 from three. Who knows. :confused: We have plenty of scoring threats, regardless, but I just hope we don't see Purdue playing off to help elsewhere if he continues missing.

But I do believe he'll be fine. And a few days off cannot be hurting that process.... :)

Jumbo
03-22-2010, 11:52 PM
If I'm scoring correctly at home, the following things are wrong with Jon's shot:
-He has a bad back.
-He has lost his confidence.
-He's thinking too much.
-He has developed a hitch in his shot.
-He has a disorganized pelvis.
-He was worried about Greivis Vasquez.
-He's so unselfish that the invdividual attention got to him.
-He has played too may minutes and is tired.
-He's taking too long to release his shot.
-He should drive more.
-He should drive less.
-He's putting too much pressure on himself.
-He should drink wine before games.
-He can't breathe through his eyes.
-He's generally just a streak shooter.
-Nothing is wrong and he should practice more.

Well, other than that, seems like Jon is fine.

Clearly, he's in a slump. My best, somewhat educated guess, is that it's a combination of factors. If we start with what we know, we have K talking a couple of times in early/mid February about a bad back. I don't know how bad it is, but backs scare me. And Duke certainly has a history of guys playing through injuries, or have we all forgotten the number of guys who've had postseason surgery for issues we didn't even know existed over the past few years?

Now, let's say something was or still is physically wrong. That could have done two things. First, it could have altered his mechanics. I do think some slight aspects of Scheyer's shot look different from earlier in the season. He's also not nearly as agile in attacking the basket. You know all those contorted layup we got used to for three-plus years? How many has he hit during this shooting slump? Seems to me that would indicate a physical issue.

The other problem is that if a physical issue caused a decline in performance that, in turn, could have affected him mentally. He could have lost confidence in his shot during that time. He could have lost his mechanics. He could still be thinking about whatever is physically wrong, even if it's not causing him pain. When things go wrong, they tend to build on each other.

Also, even when he was shooting great earlier in the season, a bunch of us commented on the fact that he was not getting the calls he used to get -- both while going to the basket or when he was getting hit on jump shots. I'd have to think that, at some point, that would get to him, and he wouldn't attack the basket in the same way.

Add in the fact that he admits he is putting pressure on himself because he wants to win a title so badly, and it's certainly a tangled situation. I wish there were an easy way to clear his head and get his mechanics in gear. If he's not healthy, he'll have to play through that, but maybe K can help with the other stuff.

Finally, Duvall is right. He has always been more of a streak shooter than a pure shooter throughout his career at Duke. His form can get so much better, which is why I think he'll be a much better shooter at the next level. In the meantime, he needs to go with what he's got, built up his confidence, and play through any pain he's experiencing. The important thing to remember is that he is a great player -- Duke's best player. He's one of the most instinctive basketball players I've ever watched; he needs to trust those instincts on his shot the same way he makes amazing plays on D simply by reacting, rather than overthinking the game.

(And, it wouldn't hurt if we all did whatever we could to build up some good mojo for him. I mean, there's nothing to lose, right?) ;)

Wander
03-23-2010, 12:10 AM
Could it be a delayed Saluki Hangover from the game with SIU last year?

greybeard
03-23-2010, 12:14 AM
His lift-off and shooting routine may be altered by some physical injury, yes. But we have no evidence of this. None. I don't think the coaches or Jon would purposely shy away from revealing any sort of nagging injury. To me it's more likely a brain problem, ie, it's in his head. And yes, your head can alter your shot, ask any basketball player this. Anyone who is in a slump can "feel" that their shot is different, that their rhythm is out of sync. He may have some physical injury, but I doubt a 4 day intervention from some specialist would really make a difference at this point. At this point, its all about the numbers. He needs to hit the gym and keep tossing them up to regain his confidence and his routine. Thats the best option here, IMHO.

It ain't an "injury."

SCMatt33
03-23-2010, 12:15 AM
I'm not going to speculate about what is wrong with Jon, but it could be anything. The bad news is that it has been getting gradually worse for weeks now, and it would be pretty special for him to turn it around suddenly now. I can't think of any precedent for it off the top of my head where someone has under-performed to this extent and then turned it around in the middle of the tourney.

All we can do is hope. Luckily we have two guys who are playing lights out, and we're crashing the boards and defending like maniacs. Even without Jon's best, we still have a good shot at Indy. If Duke is to do any damage in Indy, though, I suspect that we will need the old Jon back.

BlueintheFace
03-23-2010, 12:16 AM
-He has a disorganized pelvis.


I don't see how any other explanation makes sense at all.








Also, that's what she said.

sagegrouse
03-23-2010, 12:19 AM
Coach K has shifted a lot of that burden off of Scheyer in the last couple of weeks. In the ACC tournament and the first weekend of the NCAA tournament, Scheyer spent a lot more time off the ball, with Smith taking more of the primary ballhandling duties.

Not so much that Nolan actually becomes the point guard. John is clearly the guy aware of where everyone is on offense and, more than anyone, is directing the offense. Nolan is making better decisions but I wouldn't accuse him of "total court awareness" -- maybe next year. Now, Lance and Zoubs are showing some improved court awareness.

What teams did during the ACC was to press Duke in the backcourt. This led to Nolan's, who is less susceptible to double-teams and traps, bringing the ball up. Scheyer ended up less involved in the offense, in part because there were fewer seconds left on the clock.

sagegrouse

gep
03-23-2010, 12:22 AM
If I'm scoring correctly at home, the following things are wrong with Jon's shot:
-He has a bad back.
-He has lost his confidence.
-He's thinking too much.
-He has developed a hitch in his shot.
-He has a disorganized pelvis.
-He was worried about Greivis Vasquez.
-He's so unselfish that the invdividual attention got to him.
-He has played too may minutes and is tired.
-He's taking too long to release his shot.
-He should drive more.
-He should drive less.
-He's putting too much pressure on himself.
-He should drink wine before games.
-He can't breathe through his eyes.
-He's generally just a streak shooter.
-Nothing is wrong and he should practice more.

Well, other than that, seems like Jon is fine.


This is it :D


All we can do is hope. Luckily we have two guys who are playing lights out, and we're crashing the boards and defending like maniacs. Even without Jon's best, we still have a good shot at Indy. If Duke is to do any damage in Indy, though, I suspect that we will need the old Jon back.

yup... with the emergence of Zoobs, LT, and the Plumblee's... maybe Jon should really be emphasizing the team first... take the clear, open shot when there, and just not worry about it. With Jon's reduction in points, and the increase in points by the bigs... it may offset, and Duke still has a good chance in every game... especially since Jon has consistently played at a high level in every other aspect of the game.

Jumbo
03-23-2010, 12:25 AM
It ain't an "injury."

You don't know that for a fact. You have a theory. I think we would all appreciate it if you would preface your remarks with comments like "in my opinion," since you have spent exactly no time with Jon or the team this year, and certainly don't know anything for a fact. Your take is interesting, but also could be wrong. Please acknowedge that and don't dismiss other possibilities, especially when K has explicitly mentioned one of them.

Jumbo
03-23-2010, 12:29 AM
yup... with the emergence of Zoobs, LT, and the Plumblee's... maybe Jon should really be emphasizing the team first... take the clear, open shot when there, and just not worry about it. With Jon's reduction in points, and the increase in points by the bigs... it may offset, and Duke still has a good chance in every game... especially since Jon has consistently played at a high level in every other aspect of the game.

Of course, the vast majority of shots he is missing are wide open. These are easy shots for Jon. They're just not going in. But he has to keep shooting.

greybeard
03-23-2010, 12:53 AM
That explains your freaky fascination with feet on the thread about UNC ankle injuries!

Seriously I think my pelvis got a little unorganized back in the early 80's, but now that Disco is dead, it is better now.

Does a pitcher pitch with his arm alone? Nope. Why does one guy throw at 90 and another 75 mph? How one is organized to perform the task at hand is everything. Performance is comprised of lots of little machines firing in sequence. The less we get in our own way, what we in my profession call parasitic effort, that is, effort that blocks what we need to do to perform a task with the least effort and most efficacy, the better we will perform.

The center around which we organize is the pelvis. Ask any martial artist, tennis player, golfer, pitcher, ditch digger, sledge hammer wielder, runner, who actually has some understanding of how he does what he does. Most people, even great athletes, do not know how they do what they do well; they just do it. That is even more true today than ever since not only do we have specialists telling them what technique to use but we also have trainers telling them how to use their bodies. Self awareness is left on the scrap heap of youth.

If you don't know it, you have a dominant leg. The pelvis on that side, the side of the dominant leg will move less well than the pelvis on the other side. Leads to all kinds of shoulder, elbow, knee, hip and ankle problems, oh, don't let me leave out neck problems on the other side when we work hard over time at physical activity. You bruise the muscles in your butt on one side, strain the muscles between your ribs and along your spine, the muscles adjacent to and below your shoulder blade, forget about normal movement in your pelvis, which as I've said is already in all of us somewhat askew. Now, should your spin get locked in say t7 on down in a rotated position, wow, you don't want to know.

Jon's pelvis, which is integral to ambulation, that would include running, jumping, pushing into a shot, is thrown out of whack; so are those functions. This will not be diagnosed as an "injury."

Most of you mokes cannot shot a basketball worth your life because you do not know how you are currently shooting it so how the hell can you change to something better. Others have shoulder blades that don't move properly and prevent you from coming close to creating an "L" with your shooting arm and you are not smart enough in organizing the rest of you to compensate for that problem.

Jon, if I had to guess, shoots with a side spin because he has played for years with an imbalance in his back, something that inhibits the optimal movement of his shoulder blade. He was smart enough to figure that out before any trainers and teachers got a hold of him and smarter enough still to not let them try to force him to do something he could not, that is shoot conventionally given his current organization.

The problem he has now is something else is out of whack. So the transfer of energy that he creates with his pelvis that pushes into the ground doesn't work so well; nor does the transfer of energy back up in order to run, jump and shoot. In order to overcome these shall we shall gummed up movements he has to put more effort into that side. That movement is not habitual and because he is overcoming something that is stuff somewhat, depending on the vector of the force he creates (unlike his normal shot, these movements are not groved), the resistence varies as does the shot.

Most skelletons are the same. Muscles and how we use them to create machines of the skeletons to produce work vary. Jon needs a tune up.

Orthopods and PTs do not know from this. Moshe Feldenkrais was a genuis: he spoke five languages, developed a system of self defense, disarming attackers, that was used by the Hagana in Palestine in the 1920s, wrote a handbook on that method that is used by the Israeli military to this day, was a world class physicist, engineer, and judo expert, and spent 40 years devoted to figuring out how people learn movement and how to help people learn to improve on what they do. In the course of it, he came upon some amazingly effective discoveries about how to help people become unstuck and learn to function more effortlessly.

Try this: sit on a bench or a chair (but stay free from the back). Turn your head to the left very slowly and stop as soon as you feel resistence in either side of your neck. Return to the center. Take a breath. And repeat 4 or 5 times. You must go slowly and notice when there is the slightest strain and stop. Notice how far you turn by looking for an identifying spot on the wall.

Now, put your hands on either side of your face with your fingers pointed up and the base of your hands right above your jaw line. Let your elbows hang alongside your torso and connect with your torso. Again look to your left and keep your elbows connected with your torso but not tight, no tense in your shoulders or back. Repeat several times and notice how far you turn now. Much farther right? How come?

Now, let your hands return to your lap or your thighs, and turn your head to your left, doing nothing special and again going slowly and stopping when their is strain. Freakin magic right? Organization, dude, organization.

calltheobvious
03-23-2010, 02:10 AM
You don't know that for a fact. You have a theory. I think we would all appreciate it if you would preface your remarks with comments like "in my opinion," since you have spent exactly no time with Jon or the team this year, and certainly don't know anything for a fact. Your take is interesting, but also could be wrong. Please acknowedge that and don't dismiss other possibilities, especially when K has explicitly mentioned one of them.

I can't speak for what anyone else would appreciate, but I didn't read GB as being dismissive of other possibilities. On the contrary, I thought Hopkins was the guilty party in that respect. GB's "it ain't an injury" post seemed to me less a declarative diagnosis than an attempt to clear up Hopkins's mischaracterization of his position.

I think that any fair reading of GB's contributions to this thread would show that he is proffering an explanation based only on his observations from television, and maybe live at some games. I don't see why he need disclaim that his are "just opinons", or that he hasn't put Jon through an examination or one-on-one workout in forming his opinions.

DevilHorns
03-23-2010, 02:54 AM
I can't speak for what anyone else would appreciate, but I didn't read GB as being dismissive of other possibilities. On the contrary, I thought Hopkins was the guilty party in that respect. GB's "it ain't an injury" post seemed to me less a declarative diagnosis than an attempt to clear up Hopkins's mischaracterization of his position.

I think that any fair reading of GB's contributions to this thread would show that he is proffering an explanation based only on his observations from television, and maybe live at some games. I don't see why he need disclaim that his are "just opinons", or that he hasn't put Jon through an examination or one-on-one workout in forming his opinions.

GB wrote "Does that mean he is "injured." Not if you went to a physician; absolutely not!"

I interpreted this as Jon has an injury that isn't clearly discernible by a physician, but an injury nonetheless. Sue me. I was just stating my own opinion. Obviously GB has his own opinion and thats fine with me.

Now his reply to my previous post with "He ain't injured" does appear to be a clarification of his point, but you cannot deny that it still perpetuates the idea that Jon is indeed not injured. A statement like this carries a responsibility. We do not know anything for certain at this point, thats the whole point of the thread. I think Jumbo is right in saying that there is no clear evidence for that position or any position, and that opinions are simply that, opinions.

oldnavy
03-23-2010, 07:04 AM
Wouldn't that be "disorganized"?

DukeGirl4ever, that was a great play, especially with Jon having the presence of mind to hit Nolan streaking up the court. His defense looks fine. It's just his offense that isn't so good, especially his shooting. So maybe it's something like that Greybeard said, [to summarize] some sort of hitch in Jon's movements. I can't believe it's anything serious, from a health point of view.

As I recall, Jon had a pretty big slump last year, and snapped out of it wonderfully. And I know that two months ago we were all wondering where Kyle's jumper had gone.

Maybe Jon turns it around this week.

Yea, I thought about that after I posted but since it was meant to be silly I didn’t feel it was worth the trouble to change.

I do not discount GB's analysis of JS. He may have alignment/organizational issues, but I would think that he has been this way for years and has adapted his movements to accommodate the imbalances. Wouldn't a sudden "organization" of Jon’s pelvis be more problematic in the short run (NCCAT) than helpful?

Right now if I had to guess, and I do since I don't know Jon or have any inside info, I would say his troubles are 80/20, mental to physical at this point (evidenced by his throwing ally's to Zoub :confused:) BUT!!! I have complete confidence in Jon getting his shot back for the next round. And the really nice thing is that we can still win even if he doesn't.

OldPhiKap
03-23-2010, 09:05 AM
This thread is going to be really funny to look back on when Jon goes 4-5 from downtown on Friday.

airowe
03-23-2010, 09:19 AM
This thread is going to be really funny to look back on when Jon goes 4-5 from downtown on Friday.

You mean like he basically did last Friday? ;)

Udaman
03-23-2010, 09:25 AM
If I'm scoring correctly at home, the following things are wrong with Jon's shot:
-He has a bad back.
-He has lost his confidence.
-He's thinking too much.
-He has developed a hitch in his shot.
-He has a disorganized pelvis.
-He was worried about Greivis Vasquez.
-He's so unselfish that the invdividual attention got to him.
-He has played too may minutes and is tired.
-He's taking too long to release his shot.
-He should drive more.
-He should drive less.
-He's putting too much pressure on himself.
-He should drink wine before games.
-He can't breathe through his eyes.
-He's generally just a streak shooter.
-Nothing is wrong and he should practice more.

Well, other than that, seems like Jon is fine.



Linus: Or Maybe you have Pantophobia?

Scheyer: What's that?

Linus: Fear or everything

Scheyer: THAT'S IT!!!!

slower
03-23-2010, 09:43 AM
Does a pitcher pitch with his arm alone? Nope. Why does one guy throw at 90 and another 75 mph? How one is organized to perform the task at hand is everything. Performance is comprised of lots of little machines firing in sequence. The less we get in our own way, what we in my profession call parasitic effort, that is, effort that blocks what we need to do to perform a task with the least effort and most efficacy, the better we will perform.

The center around which we organize is the pelvis. Ask any martial artist, tennis player, golfer, pitcher, ditch digger, sledge hammer wielder, runner, who actually has some understanding of how he does what he does. Most people, even great athletes, do not know how they do what they do well; they just do it. That is even more true today than ever since not only do we have specialists telling them what technique to use but we also have trainers telling them how to use their bodies. Self awareness is left on the scrap heap of youth.

If you don't know it, you have a dominant leg. The pelvis on that side, the side of the dominant leg will move less well than the pelvis on the other side. Leads to all kinds of shoulder, elbow, knee, hip and ankle problems, oh, don't let me leave out neck problems on the other side when we work hard over time at physical activity. You bruise the muscles in your butt on one side, strain the muscles between your ribs and along your spine, the muscles adjacent to and below your shoulder blade, forget about normal movement in your pelvis, which as I've said is already in all of us somewhat askew. Now, should your spin get locked in say t7 on down in a rotated position, wow, you don't want to know.

Jon's pelvis, which is integral to ambulation, that would include running, jumping, pushing into a shot, is thrown out of whack; so are those functions. This will not be diagnosed as an "injury."

Most of you mokes cannot shot a basketball worth your life because you do not know how you are currently shooting it so how the hell can you change to something better. Others have shoulder blades that don't move properly and prevent you from coming close to creating an "L" with your shooting arm and you are not smart enough in organizing the rest of you to compensate for that problem.

Jon, if I had to guess, shoots with a side spin because he has played for years with an imbalance in his back, something that inhibits the optimal movement of his shoulder blade. He was smart enough to figure that out before any trainers and teachers got a hold of him and smarter enough still to not let them try to force him to do something he could not, that is shoot conventionally given his current organization.

The problem he has now is something else is out of whack. So the transfer of energy that he creates with his pelvis that pushes into the ground doesn't work so well; nor does the transfer of energy back up in order to run, jump and shoot. In order to overcome these shall we shall gummed up movements he has to put more effort into that side. That movement is not habitual and because he is overcoming something that is stuff somewhat, depending on the vector of the force he creates (unlike his normal shot, these movements are not groved), the resistence varies as does the shot.

Most skelletons are the same. Muscles and how we use them to create machines of the skeletons to produce work vary. Jon needs a tune up.

Orthopods and PTs do not know from this. Moshe Feldenkrais was a genuis: he spoke five languages, developed a system of self defense, disarming attackers, that was used by the Hagana in Palestine in the 1920s, wrote a handbook on that method that is used by the Israeli military to this day, was a world class physicist, engineer, and judo expert, and spent 40 years devoted to figuring out how people learn movement and how to help people learn to improve on what they do. In the course of it, he came upon some amazingly effective discoveries about how to help people become unstuck and learn to function more effortlessly.

Try this: sit on a bench or a chair (but stay free from the back). Turn your head to the left very slowly and stop as soon as you feel resistence in either side of your neck. Return to the center. Take a breath. And repeat 4 or 5 times. You must go slowly and notice when there is the slightest strain and stop. Notice how far you turn by looking for an identifying spot on the wall.

Now, put your hands on either side of your face with your fingers pointed up and the base of your hands right above your jaw line. Let your elbows hang alongside your torso and connect with your torso. Again look to your left and keep your elbows connected with your torso but not tight, no tense in your shoulders or back. Repeat several times and notice how far you turn now. Much farther right? How come?

Now, let your hands return to your lap or your thighs, and turn your head to your left, doing nothing special and again going slowly and stopping when their is strain. Freakin magic right? Organization, dude, organization.

So, essentially, you're saying that Jon needs some...FLAVEN!!!!!!

Sorry, but I laugh every time you say "Feldenkrais".

greybeard
03-23-2010, 10:26 AM
You don't know that for a fact. You have a theory. I think we would all appreciate it if you would preface your remarks with comments like "in my opinion," since you have spent exactly no time with Jon or the team this year, and certainly don't know anything for a fact. Your take is interesting, but also could be wrong. Please acknowedge that and don't dismiss other possibilities, especially when K has explicitly mentioned one of them.

My observation that Jon is laboring to move his lower left side, inclusive of the pelvis on down, is not a "theory." It is an observation which I am trained to make. I believe that if any of you look at him carefully you will see the same thing. To the extent that this is "my" observation, it is subjective. To the extent I observe accurately, it is objective. Where the two meet is a philosophic issue neither of us is competent to answer.

Now, I said it is not an "injury" because (1) K said so, and (2) I have not see Jon grimace or clench or reach for his hip or back or whereever even once. So I think being "stuck" somewhere is a more apt hypothesis.

Lastly, I have a guess, a first-approximation of a working hypothesis, of where the trouble might lie--near his pelvis. I did not say that I know where his trouble is because I don't. If I could move him some, turn his head, tilt his head. press into his shoulders, each one separately, turn his chest, turn his hips, etc, you get the idea, I will know a little more and be able to modify or refine my hypothesis still further. Then if I worked on him, I might discover something that disproves my hypothesis or confirms it. And so on.

All these steps are a continuing formulation and then reformulation of hypothesis as the Feldenkrais teacher works on a person. Every hypothesis is open to disproof. In fact, we are taught to seek to disprove what the evidence has lead us to thus far. That is one of the reasons that the work can be so effective.

Finally, while I am completing 4 years of study I am a relative neophyte in all of this--like I was with regard to the law when I graduated law school only 10 or a hundred fold to the less skilled side. There are folks around who have worked on thousands of people, who have studied in a multi-discipline way with terrific devotion, and who have a touch that is as sensative and light as can be imagined. They know how to ask questions and their repetoire of possible solutions is tremendously more advanced than mine.

So, I do not presume to be able to tell you what is wrong with Jon by looking at him move, only that there is something wrong with him, in my opinion.

By the way, for a neophyte, and for someone who like the wolf, made my bones at seeing people and their biases quite clearly throughout my ball playing days, I am pretty darn good in my observations, especially when it comes to saying that someone with whom I am familiar is struggling in ways that he wasn't before. Just my opinion.

I hope that clarifies what I am putting forth and what I am not, as my opinion.

In a slump or succumbing to pressure does not exactly fit with that last shot against Tech now does it?

Neals384
03-23-2010, 10:39 AM
Does a pitcher pitch with his arm alone? Nope. Why does one guy throw at 90 and another 75 mph? How one is organized to perform the task at hand is everything. Performance is comprised of lots of little machines firing in sequence. The less we get in our own way, what we in my profession call parasitic effort, that is, effort that blocks what we need to do to perform a task with the least effort and most efficacy, the better we will perform.

The center around which we organize is the pelvis. Ask any martial artist, tennis player, golfer, pitcher, ditch digger, sledge hammer wielder, runner, who actually has some understanding of how he does what he does. Most people, even great athletes, do not know how they do what they do well; they just do it. That is even more true today than ever since not only do we have specialists telling them what technique to use but we also have trainers telling them how to use their bodies. Self awareness is left on the scrap heap of youth.

If you don't know it, you have a dominant leg. The pelvis on that side, the side of the dominant leg will move less well than the pelvis on the other side. Leads to all kinds of shoulder, elbow, knee, hip and ankle problems, oh, don't let me leave out neck problems on the other side when we work hard over time at physical activity. You bruise the muscles in your butt on one side, strain the muscles between your ribs and along your spine, the muscles adjacent to and below your shoulder blade, forget about normal movement in your pelvis, which as I've said is already in all of us somewhat askew. Now, should your spin get locked in say t7 on down in a rotated position, wow, you don't want to know.

Jon's pelvis, which is integral to ambulation, that would include running, jumping, pushing into a shot, is thrown out of whack; so are those functions. This will not be diagnosed as an "injury."

Most of you mokes cannot shot a basketball worth your life because you do not know how you are currently shooting it so how the hell can you change to something better. Others have shoulder blades that don't move properly and prevent you from coming close to creating an "L" with your shooting arm and you are not smart enough in organizing the rest of you to compensate for that problem.

Jon, if I had to guess, shoots with a side spin because he has played for years with an imbalance in his back, something that inhibits the optimal movement of his shoulder blade. He was smart enough to figure that out before any trainers and teachers got a hold of him and smarter enough still to not let them try to force him to do something he could not, that is shoot conventionally given his current organization.

The problem he has now is something else is out of whack. So the transfer of energy that he creates with his pelvis that pushes into the ground doesn't work so well; nor does the transfer of energy back up in order to run, jump and shoot. In order to overcome these shall we shall gummed up movements he has to put more effort into that side. That movement is not habitual and because he is overcoming something that is stuff somewhat, depending on the vector of the force he creates (unlike his normal shot, these movements are not groved), the resistence varies as does the shot.

Most skelletons are the same. Muscles and how we use them to create machines of the skeletons to produce work vary. Jon needs a tune up.

Orthopods and PTs do not know from this. Moshe Feldenkrais was a genuis: he spoke five languages, developed a system of self defense, disarming attackers, that was used by the Hagana in Palestine in the 1920s, wrote a handbook on that method that is used by the Israeli military to this day, was a world class physicist, engineer, and judo expert, and spent 40 years devoted to figuring out how people learn movement and how to help people learn to improve on what they do. In the course of it, he came upon some amazingly effective discoveries about how to help people become unstuck and learn to function more effortlessly.

Try this: sit on a bench or a chair (but stay free from the back). Turn your head to the left very slowly and stop as soon as you feel resistence in either side of your neck. Return to the center. Take a breath. And repeat 4 or 5 times. You must go slowly and notice when there is the slightest strain and stop. Notice how far you turn by looking for an identifying spot on the wall.

Now, put your hands on either side of your face with your fingers pointed up and the base of your hands right above your jaw line. Let your elbows hang alongside your torso and connect with your torso. Again look to your left and keep your elbows connected with your torso but not tight, no tense in your shoulders or back. Repeat several times and notice how far you turn now. Much farther right? How come?

Now, let your hands return to your lap or your thighs, and turn your head to your left, doing nothing special and again going slowly and stopping when their is strain. Freakin magic right? Organization, dude, organization.

Grey,

I trust you're amazed but not discouraged by the amount of skepticism in the responses to your posts. I'm not familiar with Feldenkrais, but I have had a pelvis out of whack (and could not shoot straight), and had it instantly corrected by a chiropractor.

The possibility that Jon's shooting troubles originate in the pelvis is not at all implausible.

Good luck with your new career. I think you can see you will need to be a super saleman to get people to drop their skepticism and take you seriously.

Neal

diablesseblu
03-23-2010, 10:53 AM
Was friends with several esteemed practitioners during my NYC days and marveled at their study/knowledge of the human body. I have the highest regard for them and their commitment to health.

Kudos to you Greybeard for your work in the field and for your bringing your wisdom to the boards. I wish we as a nation would more fully embrace health related methodologies in addition to allopathic medicine.

There are many injuries/conditions that would benefit from a different or additional care than the traditional model.

greybeard
03-23-2010, 10:56 AM
Grey,

I trust you're amazed but not discouraged by the amount of skepticism in the responses to your posts. I'm not familiar with Feldenkrais, but I have had a pelvis out of whack (and could not shoot straight), and had it instantly corrected by a chiropractor.

The possibility that Jon's shooting troubles originate in the pelvis is not at all implausible.

Good luck with your new career. I think you can see you will need to be a super saleman to get people to drop their skepticism and take you seriously.

Neal

Not a career, an advocation at the most. I have not tried to sell this to anyone. Although it might appear otherwise, I'm not trying to sell anything here either. Thought the people here might appreciate being exposed to something that I have found has tremendous efficacy.

To the extent I practice on others, or teach Awareness Through Movement classes, it will be because people ask me. I'm not holding my breath. :o

On the other hand, the work has and continues to make me more comfortable in a beat up body and able to do some things I never ever dreamed I could. Never. Very good way to keep the mind sharp and learn to do things (the building blocks of all movement) in an easier, more efficient way than I did the first time. Few people in this life get such a chance. Certainly don't get it in the gym or contorting one's body in Yoga postures.

Cheers and thanks.

Saratoga2
03-23-2010, 11:02 AM
If I'm scoring correctly at home, the following things are wrong with Jon's shot:
-He has a bad back.
-He has lost his confidence.
-He's thinking too much.
-He has developed a hitch in his shot.
-He has a disorganized pelvis.
-He was worried about Greivis Vasquez.
-He's so unselfish that the invdividual attention got to him.
-He has played too may minutes and is tired.
-He's taking too long to release his shot.
-He should drive more.
-He should drive less.
-He's putting too much pressure on himself.
-He should drink wine before games.
-He can't breathe through his eyes.
-He's generally just a streak shooter.
-Nothing is wrong and he should practice more.

Well, other than that, seems like Jon is fine.

Clearly, he's in a slump. My best, somewhat educated guess, is that it's a combination of factors. If we start with what we know, we have K talking a couple of times in early/mid February about a bad back. I don't know how bad it is, but backs scare me. And Duke certainly has a history of guys playing through injuries, or have we all forgotten the number of guys who've had postseason surgery for issues we didn't even know existed over the past few years?

Now, let's say something was or still is physically wrong. That could have done two things. First, it could have altered his mechanics. I do think some slight aspects of Scheyer's shot look different from earlier in the season. He's also not nearly as agile in attacking the basket. You know all those contorted layup we got used to for three-plus years? How many has he hit during this shooting slump? Seems to me that would indicate a physical issue.

The other problem is that if a physical issue caused a decline in performance that, in turn, could have affected him mentally. He could have lost confidence in his shot during that time. He could have lost his mechanics. He could still be thinking about whatever is physically wrong, even if it's not causing him pain. When things go wrong, they tend to build on each other.

Also, even when he was shooting great earlier in the season, a bunch of us commented on the fact that he was not getting the calls he used to get -- both while going to the basket or when he was getting hit on jump shots. I'd have to think that, at some point, that would get to him, and he wouldn't attack the basket in the same way.

Add in the fact that he admits he is putting pressure on himself because he wants to win a title so badly, and it's certainly a tangled situation. I wish there were an easy way to clear his head and get his mechanics in gear. If he's not healthy, he'll have to play through that, but maybe K can help with the other stuff.

Finally, Duvall is right. He has always been more of a streak shooter than a pure shooter throughout his career at Duke. His form can get so much better, which is why I think he'll be a much better shooter at the next level. In the meantime, he needs to go with what he's got, built up his confidence, and play through any pain he's experiencing. The important thing to remember is that he is a great player -- Duke's best player. He's one of the most instinctive basketball players I've ever watched; he needs to trust those instincts on his shot the same way he makes amazing plays on D simply by reacting, rather than overthinking the game.

(And, it wouldn't hurt if we all did whatever we could to build up some good mojo for him. I mean, there's nothing to lose, right?) ;)

Jon's play has changed and the results are not as good. Lots of speculation on the board, but no one really close enough to understand. Let's hope those who are in the know can make a difference soon. Jon is a great player and he is intelligent. I am sure that he more than anyone else is anxious to get back to his earlier form.

SoCalDukeFan
03-23-2010, 11:08 AM
I am certainly not dismissive of Greybeard's analysis and it may be a factor.

I think the bigger factor is that Jon goes to this right and shoots much better than to his left, and that is what he prefers to do. Teams are taking that away from him, he misses shots and presses. In order to keep him from going to his right something has to give, and it is often a big man being open.

I don't think Jon can learn to got better going to his left in 4 days but the team can learn to better exploit the defense played on Jon.

SoCal

CDu
03-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Not so much that Nolan actually becomes the point guard. John is clearly the guy aware of where everyone is on offense and, more than anyone, is directing the offense. Nolan is making better decisions but I wouldn't accuse him of "total court awareness" -- maybe next year. Now, Lance and Zoubs are showing some improved court awareness.

What teams did during the ACC was to press Duke in the backcourt. This led to Nolan's, who is less susceptible to double-teams and traps, bringing the ball up. Scheyer ended up less involved in the offense, in part because there were fewer seconds left on the clock.

sagegrouse

I agree that Smith hasn't become the PG. I'd argue that, in the past five games, we've gone back to not having a PG. In other words, the responsibility of running the offense and organizing things has been taken off of Scheyer and spread over the entire team.

flyingdutchdevil
03-23-2010, 11:24 AM
Is it at all possible that probability wasn't on Jon's side?

Also, a few posters brought it up that Jon isn't the greatest shooter anyway. Check out these stats for his college career (FG, 3FG):
2006-07: .398 / .365
2007-08: .444 / .388
2008-09: .397 / .385
2009-10: .397 / .381

These numbers, in all honesty, aren't that great. Jon gets a lot of his points off being crafty (getting to the free throw line, smart drives, etc).

Shooting 1-11 is terrible. But that happens to every player. Couple that with Jon's good-but-not-great shooting stats, and his streak isn't all that surprising.

greybeard
03-23-2010, 11:24 AM
Kornheisser just did a minute on Duke on his radio show while talking to Bob Ryan. He explained to Ryan how his boy (naming me), whom he identified as a "basketball guru," has been telling him how Duke is much better than everyone is saying precisely because of the way K deploys Zoubek and the other bigs setting picks and screens all over the place, thus presenting on offense in a way like no other. Nope, didn't pay him. And, Ryan liked the take; he said so.

Hey, screw the Feldenkrais stuff; maybe I could become a talking head. ;)

greybeard
03-23-2010, 11:29 AM
I am certainly not dismissive of Greybeard's analysis and it may be a factor.

I think the bigger factor is that Jon goes to this right and shoots much better than to his left, and that is what he prefers to do. Teams are taking that away from him, he misses shots and presses. In order to keep him from going to his right something has to give, and it is often a big man being open.

I don't think Jon can learn to got better going to his left in 4 days but the team can learn to better exploit the defense played on Jon.

SoCal

The winning 3 against Tech was going to his left. A set play.

Taco
03-23-2010, 11:38 AM
Jon's problem is clearly that no one at The Chronicle has suggested he be benched yet.

DevilHorns
03-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Hey, screw the Feldenkrais stuff; maybe I could become a talking head. ;)

Then you have to lose your Duke-bias and judge teams objectively :). I still don't see how some analysts can do that well.

NM Duke Fan
03-23-2010, 11:44 AM
The center around which we organize is the pelvis. Ask any martial artist

Try this: sit on a bench or a chair (but stay free from the back). Turn your head to the left very slowly and stop as soon as you feel resistence in either side of your neck. Return to the center. Take a breath. And repeat 4 or 5 times. You must go slowly and notice when there is the slightest strain and stop. Notice how far you turn by looking for an identifying spot on the wall.

Now, put your hands on either side of your face with your fingers pointed up and the base of your hands right above your jaw line. Let your elbows hang alongside your torso and connect with your torso. Again look to your left and keep your elbows connected with your torso but not tight, no tense in your shoulders or back. Repeat several times and notice how far you turn now. Much farther right? How come?

Now, let your hands return to your lap or your thighs, and turn your head to your left, doing nothing special and again going slowly and stopping when their is strain. Freakin magic right? Organization, dude, organization.

As a martial artist and qigong master, I agree 100% about the pelvis!

Regarding your test above, I wonder how many here took you up on it? It really is an amazing test and is just one of such tests which demonstrate the insights of Feldendkrais. I really appreciate the time you put into your insightful posts.

Regarding Jon and basketball, unlikely he will discover Feldenkrais in the next few days. I only hope his body compensates the best it can for now, and especially, that he gets into the Zone, where time seems to stand still, thought disappears, and his years of training and instinct take over. When you are in the Zone, even a balky body loses some of its limiting power on your performance. If he hits a shot or two to start out, it might help him to just relax and let it flow once again. The mental/psychological aspects of sports are huge in separating the great from the good.

greybeard
03-23-2010, 12:06 PM
I only hope his body compensates the best it can for now, and especially, that he gets into the Zone, where time seems to stand still, thought disappears, and his years of training and instinct take over. When you are in the Zone, even a balky body loses some of its limiting power on your performance. If he hits a shot or two to start out, it might help him to just relax and let it flow once again. The mental/psychological aspects of sports are huge in separating the great from the good.

How well put. If collective energy can help, shall we all embrace this hope at the start of each game.

SoCalDukeFan
03-23-2010, 02:51 PM
The winning 3 against Tech was going to his left. A set play.

I did not say Jon only went to his right. He prefers it, shoots better that way, and I think he gets frustrated when he misses. Which only means he is human.

I would guess that K knew that Hewitt would not give Jon an open look going to his right but that going to the left might be open.

SoCal

greybeard
03-23-2010, 06:28 PM
I did not say Jon only went to his right. He prefers it, shoots better that way, and I think he gets frustrated when he misses. Which only means he is human.

I would guess that K knew that Hewitt would not give Jon an open look going to his right but that going to the left might be open.

SoCal

I can live with this.

Billy Dat
03-23-2010, 08:46 PM
I did not say Jon only went to his right. He prefers it, shoots better that way, and I think he gets frustrated when he misses. Which only means he is human.

I would guess that K knew that Hewitt would not give Jon an open look going to his right but that going to the left might be open.

SoCal

I just listened to the ESPNU College Basketball podcast breakdown of the Sweet 16. Doug Gottlieb talked about Jon and his recent lower shooting percentage. He mentioned a stat service named Synergy that NBA and College Teams use to evaluate players and their tendencies. According to the Synergy stats, John is "efficient" 96% of the time going right and 35% of the time going left. He thinks that this recent downturn is because teams have figured this out and are forcing him left, and he thinks Purdue will gameplan that way, too. I was not able to quickly find how they define "efficient", but maybe someone else can, or already knows.
http://www.synergysportstech.com/

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to provide some potential outside support for SoCal's theory.

Newton_14
03-23-2010, 10:19 PM
Ok, there is NCAA Title on the line so we go to the Barney Fife method.

Everyone take your left hand, reach over your head and grab hold of your right ear and repeat the following:

Edapuss, Odapuss, Ahdapuss Rex, Protect Jon Scheyer From the Shooting Hex!

That should do it! Jon will drain shots from everywhere the next 4 games!:p:D

-bdbd
03-23-2010, 10:56 PM
I just listened to the ESPNU College Basketball podcast breakdown of the Sweet 16. Doug Gottlieb talked about Jon and his recent lower shooting percentage. He mentioned a stat service named Synergy that NBA and College Teams use to evaluate players and their tendencies. According to the Synergy stats, John is "efficient" 96% of the time going right and 35% of the time going left. He thinks that this recent downturn is because teams have figured this out and are forcing him left, and he thinks Purdue will gameplan that way, too. I was not able to quickly find how they define "efficient", but maybe someone else can, or already knows.
http://www.synergysportstech.com/

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to provide some potential outside support for SoCal's theory.

The synergy explanation seems sensible. If so, then I'm not as concerned. Remember if you're focusing ion tricks or special attention to stop a particular player, then you probably aren't helping out elsewhere......and that leaves others open for their opportunities. We have more than one weapon.


But I also have a sneaking suspicion that Jon is about to surprise most with some great performances. Boy does this kid exude desire or what!??

Go Duke! :)

greybeard
03-23-2010, 11:41 PM
What does "efficient" measure? Sounds nice, but what is it. Without knowing, I'm not buying.

Jumbo
03-24-2010, 12:23 AM
I just listened to the ESPNU College Basketball podcast breakdown of the Sweet 16. Doug Gottlieb talked about Jon and his recent lower shooting percentage. He mentioned a stat service named Synergy that NBA and College Teams use to evaluate players and their tendencies. According to the Synergy stats, John is "efficient" 96% of the time going right and 35% of the time going left. He thinks that this recent downturn is because teams have figured this out and are forcing him left, and he thinks Purdue will gameplan that way, too. I was not able to quickly find how they define "efficient", but maybe someone else can, or already knows.
http://www.synergysportstech.com/

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to provide some potential outside support for SoCal's theory.

It's a nice attempt by Gottlieb, but it fails to explain what's going on. While Synergy is super-impressive, and is a huge scouting tool, it's not new. And, for starters, people would have developed scouting tendencies on Scheyer long ago. It's not like he's a one-and-done guy -- this is his fourth year in college. He's a known quantity. It's awfully convenient that people would have just started forcing him left at the point when his shooting stroke went cold. Is that what happened in January last season, too?
Furthermore, whatever his rating is going left or right fails to explain the number of open jumpers he is missing. And that's the big deal -- and mystery -- here. Quite simply, Scheyer is missing shots that are easy for him. I'm sticking with the injury/pain ---> bad mechanics ----> missed shots ----> confidence issue theory.

Jumbo
03-24-2010, 12:25 AM
Now, I said it is not an "injury" because (1) K said so, and (2) I have not see Jon grimace or clench or reach for his hip or back or whereever even once. So I think being "stuck" somewhere is a more apt hypothesis.


Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "K said so?" Because he very clearly said -- I think after the game at B.C. or the game at Carolina; maybe both -- that Jon was deaing with a bad back.

BTW, very cool on the shout-out from Kornheiser.

greybeard
03-24-2010, 04:05 PM
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "K said so?" Because he very clearly said -- I think after the game at B.C. or the game at Carolina; maybe both -- that Jon was deaing with a bad back.

BTW, very cool on the shout-out from Kornheiser.

I recalled that someone on this thread reported that K recently said that Jon was not injured. If that is not so, then what I see in his carriage might well be due to what an orthopod would deem an "injury"--they'd probably call it a back sprain. I just wanted to avoid quibbling.

In my personal and now perhaps can say this, professional experience, after an injury like Jon incurred, problems persist well after the pain symptom disappears. I do not know whether an orthopod would diagnos as an "injury" the continued lack of full function a person might experience after the pain has discipated.

NM Duke Fan
03-24-2010, 04:17 PM
I recalled that someone on this thread reported that K recently said that Jon was not injured. If that is not so, then what I see in his carriage might well be due to what an orthopod would deem an "injury"--they'd probably call it a back sprain. I just wanted to avoid quibbling.

In my personal and now perhaps can say this, professional experience, after an injury like Jon incurred, problems persist well after the pain symptom disappears. I do not know whether an orthopod would diagnos as an "injury" the continued lack of full function a person might experience after the pain has discipated.

Have I ever seen this with both myself and students: Compensation due to a continued structural/muscular imbalance. Some bodies can continue with compensating for a long time, others eventually start showing major problems on the side which is now having to do more work. The key to optimal functioning is balance, which is rarer than many believe. The Feldenkrais test you outlined earlier reminded me thatafter some physical setbacks, I am not yet back to functioning as an integral, balanced unit!

OldPhiKap
03-24-2010, 04:36 PM
My only advice for Jon:

The rose goes in the front, big fella.

Devilsfan
03-24-2010, 04:54 PM
No pressure. He's merely leading us out of the desert (the field) where we've wandered aimlessly for the last several years into the promised land (final four).

Kfanarmy
03-25-2010, 10:41 AM
CBCSports has a sweet 16 preview at http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2010/03/24/sp-sweet16-preview.html?ref=rss

what I found interesting was wrt Butler: "They will need Horizon League MVP Gordon Hayward to step up if they are going to survive. Hayward shot 4-of-13 in the Murray State game, and hasn't been himself since sustaining a back injury on Feb. 26."

sound familiar?

Billy Dat
03-25-2010, 09:34 PM
From the horse's mouth at today's press conference:

Q. The last game against Cal, your shooting statistics, was that something Cal was doing defensively? Was that an off shooting day? Can you talk about that game and how you bounced back from that?
JON SCHEYER: Yeah, you know, it happens. The last game I didn't shoot the ball well. I had a lot of great looks. Guys had me in great positions, I just didn't shoot the ball well. So it's something I just went back to Durham, worked hard on my shooting.
You know, it's also not -- the last game, I don't really base my game on whether I shoot the ball well or not. But for me I just want to go out there and play well, defensively, offensively, and shooting will come.

Q. You said about your mechanics, you said last week in Jacksonville that you want to go back and look at film. Do you see anything in there?
JON SCHEYER: Well, last game against Cal, I was just -- I was pretty passive. Once I started to miss a few, I started feeling pressure on myself because the way we were playing defense as a team, we had a chance to really, you know, extend the lead to a 20-point lead or, you know, at least 20 if I had just a couple of those open looks. So I was just getting tight on my shots and trying to guide the ball in.
So for me that's one thing I looked at. I just need to go and shoot the ball. I know my teammates have confidence in me, I just need to have confidence, too.

Q. But everything looked good you saw on film?
JON SCHEYER: Well, no. Actually I was just really trying to guide the ball in. Really, I was kicking my legs out on a couple of them. That's just something I looked at. For me, I just need to shoot the ball strong like I have in the past.

dukelifer
03-25-2010, 09:38 PM
From the horse's mouth at today's press conference:

Q. The last game against Cal, your shooting statistics, was that something Cal was doing defensively? Was that an off shooting day? Can you talk about that game and how you bounced back from that?
JON SCHEYER: Yeah, you know, it happens. The last game I didn't shoot the ball well. I had a lot of great looks. Guys had me in great positions, I just didn't shoot the ball well. So it's something I just went back to Durham, worked hard on my shooting.
You know, it's also not -- the last game, I don't really base my game on whether I shoot the ball well or not. But for me I just want to go out there and play well, defensively, offensively, and shooting will come.

Q. You said about your mechanics, you said last week in Jacksonville that you want to go back and look at film. Do you see anything in there?
JON SCHEYER: Well, last game against Cal, I was just -- I was pretty passive. Once I started to miss a few, I started feeling pressure on myself because the way we were playing defense as a team, we had a chance to really, you know, extend the lead to a 20-point lead or, you know, at least 20 if I had just a couple of those open looks. So I was just getting tight on my shots and trying to guide the ball in.
So for me that's one thing I looked at. I just need to go and shoot the ball. I know my teammates have confidence in me, I just need to have confidence, too.

Q. But everything looked good you saw on film?
JON SCHEYER: Well, no. Actually I was just really trying to guide the ball in. Really, I was kicking my legs out on a couple of them. That's just something I looked at. For me, I just need to shoot the ball strong like I have in the past.

I don't know about this. Clearly Jon has no idea what he is saying. Doesn't he read DBR. :)

Billy Dat
03-25-2010, 10:01 PM
From K...This is an excellent and quirky press conference:
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=62391
(link is to a transcript)

Q. Anything you're going to say to him? He said he went back and went through some films and he said he might have gotten a few shots?
COACH KRZYZEWSKI: I've talked to him. I talked to him right after our last game, you know in the locker room and at the airport before we were getting it. I just one said keep shooting. But I would -- he's been shooting his shot differently.
He doesn't shoot the same shot all the time, and that means you're thinking about different things. A huge thing for the guy who brings the ball up and this is at every level, is the ability to concentrate, concentrate on your shot when you get it, because you're concentrating on running your team. Then when you do get the ball, there are times when you're not completely focused on the shot, and you can shoot a different shot each time.
Jon wants it so badly. Like I came in and heard his answer. You may have asked it where he said, "I knew we were playing great defense, and if I hit the shot we could break it open," or something like that. So that's not the reason you take that shot. You should take your shot because it's open and you shoot it. So he's putting more on it.
I asked him, when you took the shot to beat Georgia Tech and win the ACC Championship, you know, what were you thinking about then? He said I was just thinking about hitting my shot. I said, well, just do that.
I'm not worried about it. I just would like to see him enjoy it, and not put the pressure -- when I say pressure. It's not walking around here like tight, but he wants to do so well that at times he's putting a little bit too much weight on each shot he's taking.

OldPhiKap
03-25-2010, 10:05 PM
From K...This is an excellent and quirky press conference:
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=62391
(link is to a transcript)

Q. Anything you're going to say to him? He said he went back and went through some films and he said he might have gotten a few shots?
COACH KRZYZEWSKI: I've talked to him. I talked to him right after our last game, you know in the locker room and at the airport before we were getting it. I just one said keep shooting. But I would -- he's been shooting his shot differently.
He doesn't shoot the same shot all the time, and that means you're thinking about different things. A huge thing for the guy who brings the ball up and this is at every level, is the ability to concentrate, concentrate on your shot when you get it, because you're concentrating on running your team. Then when you do get the ball, there are times when you're not completely focused on the shot, and you can shoot a different shot each time.
Jon wants it so badly. Like I came in and heard his answer. You may have asked it where he said, "I knew we were playing great defense, and if I hit the shot we could break it open," or something like that. So that's not the reason you take that shot. You should take your shot because it's open and you shoot it. So he's putting more on it.
I asked him, when you took the shot to beat Georgia Tech and win the ACC Championship, you know, what were you thinking about then? He said I was just thinking about hitting my shot. I said, well, just do that.
I'm not worried about it. I just would like to see him enjoy it, and not put the pressure -- when I say pressure. It's not walking around here like tight, but he wants to do so well that at times he's putting a little bit too much weight on each shot he's taking.

Sounds like when K switched Duhon and J.Will.

If there is any coach I trust to work through this, it's K.

If there's any WINNER I trust to work through this, it's Jon.

In Duke we Trust.

Billy Dat
03-25-2010, 10:07 PM
If it is indeed mental, I am glad the issue was publically addressed. If everyone's talking about it, I am glad Scheyer and K acknowledged it only so that maybe some of that pressure will abate.

Jumbo
03-25-2010, 10:23 PM
From the horse's mouth at today's press conference:

Q. The last game against Cal, your shooting statistics, was that something Cal was doing defensively? Was that an off shooting day? Can you talk about that game and how you bounced back from that?
JON SCHEYER: Yeah, you know, it happens. The last game I didn't shoot the ball well. I had a lot of great looks. Guys had me in great positions, I just didn't shoot the ball well. So it's something I just went back to Durham, worked hard on my shooting.
You know, it's also not -- the last game, I don't really base my game on whether I shoot the ball well or not. But for me I just want to go out there and play well, defensively, offensively, and shooting will come.

Q. You said about your mechanics, you said last week in Jacksonville that you want to go back and look at film. Do you see anything in there?
JON SCHEYER: Well, last game against Cal, I was just -- I was pretty passive. Once I started to miss a few, I started feeling pressure on myself because the way we were playing defense as a team, we had a chance to really, you know, extend the lead to a 20-point lead or, you know, at least 20 if I had just a couple of those open looks. So I was just getting tight on my shots and trying to guide the ball in.
So for me that's one thing I looked at. I just need to go and shoot the ball. I know my teammates have confidence in me, I just need to have confidence, too.

Q. But everything looked good you saw on film?
JON SCHEYER: Well, no. Actually I was just really trying to guide the ball in. Really, I was kicking my legs out on a couple of them. That's just something I looked at. For me, I just need to shoot the ball strong like I have in the past.


I went back and watched some of the shots the other day, and that was one of three things I noticed -- guiding the ball. You can just tell when a shooter is doing that, rather than releasing. It's like a pitcher who aims rather than throws. Secondly, I thought his posture looked off. Earlier in the year, he was more upright when he shot from deep. He wasn't quite as straight up when he shot against Cal. Finally, I noticed the thing about kicking out his feet, and thought his toes were pointed too much to his left, with his feet too close together. Add in the fact that he tends to position his shot to the right of his head, rather than straight up, and that led to a bit of a corkscrew effect.

I hope he was able to rectify these mechanical flaws through repetition, got his confidence going and isn't feeling any pain.

jv001
03-25-2010, 10:29 PM
Agree that his shot was more deliberate and his release slower than usual. That can come from guiding your shot. Like Jumbo said, I hope Jon's worked it out and shoots lights out the rest of the tournament. Go Duke!

DevilHorns
03-26-2010, 03:03 AM
Just as I figured, its all in his head :cool:

Im glad it happened early in the tourney. Jon will be back in form tomorrow!

Starter
03-26-2010, 03:13 AM
I'd be more willing to buy into the mental rather than physical argument if this were a short "slump," rather than one that's been going on well over a month, and if he hasn't shown signs of fatigue -- or injury, I guess. I'll forever have trouble fiddling while Rome burns; maybe it makes me a glass half empty guy. I'll add that if it is mental, which I would contend that it is not, having him talking about it all the time probably isn't a positive.

Regardless of ANY OF THAT, we need Jon's game -- whatever it is right now -- to work in synergy with the other thriving members of our team. I think our consistency works for us amid much volatility. Let's do this -- one game at a time, and Purdue is up next.

mike88
03-26-2010, 05:07 AM
Based on what I have read and seen, I think that the physical signs we see, and the lack of fluidity in Jon's shot, are coming from thinking about it too much rather than from an underlying, persistant physical problem. Sports psychologists have observed that when athletes focus too much conscious thought on the athletic task, they tend to lose the automatic fluidity that they have developed through extensive practice: in this case, the different elements of the shot don't work as well together as they usually do and appear out of synch. I think this happening to Jon on many of his shots (although not on the final shot vs GT which happened very quickly and in rhythm, nor as much in the Ark-PB game)

There has been some very interesting research on how to reduce this phenomenon. Here is a link to a nice article on the topic, although I don't like to label the phenomenon as "choking":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jul/26/sports-psychology-choking

The other important factor is that whether or not Jon shoots well, he continues to be extremely valuable in many other ways: his defense and ball-handling particularly. I am not worried if Jon shoots 30%. I would be worried if he passes up open shots, or if fouls or turnovers begin to become a problem for him . . . but I doubt that will happen.

Kedsy
03-26-2010, 12:04 PM
I'd be more willing to buy into the mental rather than physical argument if this were a short "slump," rather than one that's been going on well over a month...

I think to evaluate Jon's "slump," we have to (a) remember he's always been a streaky shooter; and (b) separate his two-point shooting from his three-point shooting. His two-point shooting has been off for five or so weeks, but his layups have always been so twisty-crazy that it's possible that's just a function of the second time around the league schedule and then the tougher play in tournaments. Either way, I wouldn't classify Jon missing difficult layups as evidence of a shooting slump. For that, I think we ought to look at his three-point shooting.

Out of Duke's 36 games, Jon has shot worse than 33% from three-point range 16 times. Here is the distribution:

Game #1 (first game of year)
Games #5, 6, 7, 8 (includes Az St, UConn, Wis, and St. Johns)
Games #15, 16, 17, 19 (includes @GaT, Wake, @Clem)
Games #26, 27 (includes @Miami, VaT)
Games #30, 31, 32, 34, 36 (includes @Md, UNC, ACCT, Cal in NCAAT (but NOT Ark-PB))

So, I may be grasping at straws, but here's what I see in the above data:

(a) 10 of the 16 games were away from Cameron;
(b) many of the tougher games on our schedule are on this list;
(c) many of our higher pressure games are on this list.
(d) He has had three cold streaks of similar lengths (4 of 4; 4 of 5; 5 of 7), and he broke out of the first two with hot streaks -- in games 9 through 14, he shot a total of 25-49 (51%); in games 20 through 25, he shot a total of 20-38 (53%); (and after his mini-streak, he hit 58% in games 28-29).

So, it seems to me the data suggests several explanations that are NOT fatigue or injury. It's possible he just shoots worse away from Cameron in tough and/or high pressure games, and if that's true it's unlikely he'll break out of it in the next few games (although I also think it's unlikely he'll shoot 1 for 11 again). On the other hand, it could be he's just on one of his cold streaks and is due to break out. Only time will tell, I suppose.

OldPhiKap
03-26-2010, 01:30 PM
Crazy thought: maybe some of these teams have good perimeter defense and they key on Jon.

Everyone needs to step up to the next level come tourney time. Jon is no exception. And I am confident that he will give maximum effort, regardless.

Starter
03-26-2010, 06:14 PM
I think to evaluate Jon's "slump," we have to (a) remember he's always been a streaky shooter; and (b) separate his two-point shooting from his three-point shooting.

Sure, he's a streaky shooter. But if we're pinning this on that, wouldn't he have had some good games mixed in the past month and a half, excepting Pine Bluff or a terrible Virginia squad?

As for separating his two-point and three-point shooting, when he stopped being able to score on drives, that can't be a product of fatigue to be unable to finish at the basket or in the lane? It's because of his twisty-turny layups? And hey -- nobody's saying Jon's not still a talented shooter.

Listen, I just don't care. Provided he can blend in seamlessly with the players that are playing well, we got our eyes on the prize here. And hopefully teams start to gameplan away from him in favor of Singler, etc., and Jon can take advantage of that.

BD80
03-29-2010, 01:44 AM
...

Shooters shoot. Jon will be fine. We should have a poll on which game Jon explodes out of the slump. I'll choose Purdue.

Wow! This thread really slipped down. To page FOUR!


BTW, I do apologize for my over-optimism, but I still maintain he "broke" the slump against Purdue, as evidenced by his performance start to finish against Baylor.


Are we now to convert this to a Singler slump thread and analyze Kyle's pelvic orientation?

Welcome2DaSlopes
03-29-2010, 01:52 AM
This thread should be closed as it is no longer relavent for Jon, maybe another dukie, but i'm sure he'll fix that next game.

Starter
03-29-2010, 01:56 AM
Jon was magnificent. I'm not sure what to say, he was so much better than he's looked recently. God bless him, let's just hope he keeps it going. With Singler struggling, we needed Jon -- it seems like we always have 2 of the Big 3 clicking. Let's go Duke.

(BTW -- I'm sure Kyle's pelvis is fine -- ....... -- but I am slightly worried about his wrist)

ElSid
03-29-2010, 02:03 AM
I said all night...

If SINGLER were the guy jumping to the line to grab the ball at the free throw line, he might have had 20 points. But it kept being plumlees and zoubeks. That's fine.

Singler doesn't have a slump. He had a game where the other team's defense was designed to take him out of the game.

I loved that Baylor zone. I knew we'd find a way out of it.

Singler is fine. We have a clear path...nothing set in stone, but get past WVU and who knows. WVU was "supposed" to have our #1 seed anyway.

Afterthought, which should have been the start of the post: Jon broke out of this slump like it never happened. I think he saw one go in against Purdue and that was it. He played one of the best games of the year. I'm so happy for him and for this team.

uh_no
03-29-2010, 02:24 AM
i hope the 'tired legs' argument can be put to rest....our big 3 perhaps played more minutes in the acc than any other trio in duke history.....and nolan put up 29, jon put up 20 (and we can just look at kyle's first 3 games)

seeing as we shot 48% from three, can we put the tired legs argument to bed....forever?

Welcome2DaSlopes
03-29-2010, 02:54 AM
Singler doesn't have a slump. He had a game where the other team's defense was designed to take him out of the game.

Going 0-10 isn't a slump? he had some pretty easy shots.

Saratoga2
03-29-2010, 07:15 AM
Perhaps it all was about confidence and the power of positive thinking with Jon

Kyle is okay. I think he was up against some big, long and quick players at Baylor and it threw off his scoring. Anyone can miss a few from long distance, even when open. Many of his attempts were in closer and there was no way to score inside against the excellent Baylor defense. Thomas showed that with the exception of a put back. Even Zoubek with his immense size was mostly neutralized inside.Singler will be better against another team.

CDu
03-29-2010, 08:21 AM
Going 0-10 isn't a slump? he had some pretty easy shots.

I have trouble calling a single bad game a slump. I think it's more fair to call it an off-night. If it happens again, then we can talk about a slump. I realize that this is semantics though.

greybeard
03-29-2010, 11:41 AM
Maybe I'm a crazy optimist, but I have to believe that Huggs is none too happy to be facing Mr. Singler coming off a game like this. I KNOW that, were I he, I wouldn't. ;)

jacone21
03-29-2010, 12:00 PM
Maybe I'm a crazy optimist, but I have to believe that Huggs is none too happy to be facing Mr. Singler coming off a game like this. I KNOW that, were I he, I wouldn't. ;)

Told my wifey after Kyle missed that last three, "If we win this game tonight, Kyle might score 37 in the next game." Man, I hope it happens.

moonpie23
03-29-2010, 12:15 PM
kyle's wrist is hurt. i doubt that it's broken, or the staff would not allow him to play, but it's bothering his shot...

Starter
03-29-2010, 12:22 PM
seeing as we shot 48% from three, can we put the tired legs argument to bed....forever?

No, I think it's still been apparent that Jon's been fatigued -- physically and mentally -- for some time. I don't use the term "tired legs." It's a long season and he played heavy minutes at a challenging position.

But when we desperately needed him with Kyle struggling for whatever reason, Jon summoned up a magnificent game. It's what great players do -- and Scheyer is a great college player. He has cemented himself firmly in Duke lore with performances like last night.

My old Duke roommate and I talked about the game for a few hours last night, and we were discussing that Scheyer could very well see his number in the rafters.

greybeard
03-29-2010, 01:52 PM
No, I think it's still been apparent that Jon's been fatigued -- physically and mentally -- for some time. I don't use the term "tired legs." It's a long season and he played heavy minutes at a challenging position.

But when we desperately needed him with Kyle struggling for whatever reason, Jon summoned up a magnificent game. It's what great players do -- and Scheyer is a great college player. He has cemented himself firmly in Duke lore with performances like last night.

My old Duke roommate and I talked about the game for a few hours last night, and we were discussing that Scheyer could very well see his number in the rafters.

Since his arrival at Duke, Scheyer has played so many different roles, all extraordinarily well.

His freshman year he shot the ball extremely well, and played great defense and of course took care of the basketball.

His sophomore year, when Duke went to that wing-attack offense that feature two extraordinarily athletic wings, Jon was equally great at that. That year, with Duke really pressuring the wings with Nelson and G and sometimes McClure, it seemed whenever a team tried to penetrate the middle with the pass, there was Jon, reading it like the best free safety in the business.

In the interest of brevity, I'll skip to this year. The job he did leading this offense, setting and keeping tempo, not turning the ball over, penetrating to the basket at his tempo and finishing in his wonderfully clever, "nonathletic?" ways, was nothing short of brilliant.

A 6'5" player, moving to a position usually occupied by the most athletically gifted athletes on the planet, a position that they usually train for all their lives, and he dominates, as in dictates, play against all comers. Brilliant, as in translating intelligence into its surest measure--using your body to do precisely what you want and being about to decide from moment to moment what that is in order for your team to be successful.

Jon Scheyer is a brilliant basketball player, in my opinion, and wonderfully successful by anyone's measure. I say, hang it up!

uh_no
03-29-2010, 02:08 PM
No, I think it's still been apparent that Jon's been fatigued -- physically and mentally -- for some time

and your evidence for this is? anecdotal?

Starter
03-29-2010, 05:08 PM
and your evidence for this is? anecdotal?

Call it what you will. I have a long history with basketball and watch every game closely and objectively. I have no desire to get into this at this time, it always just results in an impasse. I respect that people have passion about what they believe. At this juncture, I would prefer to focus on the positive, because there's a lot of it to focus on.

greybeard
03-29-2010, 05:13 PM
Check out the "pictures" thread. As the guy who posted the picture of Kyle cutting down the net aptly put it, "his hand looks like a truck ran over it."

Definitely was reinjured when the Perdue player took him down on that drive. Nasty dirty play. Hope the swelling subsides.

OldPhiKap
03-29-2010, 05:14 PM
Can we let this thread sink to the bottom, please?

uh_no
03-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Call it what you will. I have a long history with basketball and watch every game closely and objectively. I have no desire to get into this at this time, it always just results in an impasse. I respect that people have passion about what they believe. At this juncture, I would prefer to focus on the positive, because there's a lot of it to focus on.

Quite the defense to your argument.

Starter
03-29-2010, 05:36 PM
If you look back, I've discussed it many, many times in detail. I'm just weary of it and don't feel like rehashing it, son.


Can we let this thread sink to the bottom, please?

I do agree with this guy. Let's focus on the positives.

BlueDevilBaby
03-29-2010, 06:08 PM
Perhaps Jon had a little patella tendinitis - he is wearing a strap around the knee just below the cap that I have not noticed before. That could have affected his jump shot and his shots in the lane when he did not seem to have as much lift.

In any event, glad our sharpshooter is back.

GODUKEGO
03-29-2010, 06:39 PM
The hand looks bad but hopefully RICE will help!!

dukelifer
03-29-2010, 09:53 PM
The hand looks bad but hopefully RICE will help!!

Looks like the tape is on too tight. But I also think he is hurting and perhaps a few days of therapy will get his range of motion back.

DukeGirl4ever
03-29-2010, 09:59 PM
Looks like the tape is on too tight. But I also think he is hurting and perhaps a few days of therapy will get his range of motion back.

Poor guy doesn't even look like he can hold the scissors the right way!
I'm wondering if we're being kept in the dark about that wrist....it looks awful!
(Sorry to hi-jack the Scheyer thread....)

dukelifer
03-29-2010, 10:15 PM
Poor guy doesn't even look like he can hold the scissors the right way!
I'm wondering if we're being kept in the dark about that wrist....it looks awful!
(Sorry to hi-jack the Scheyer thread....)

He will probably work all week on shooting lefty.

DukeGirl4ever
03-29-2010, 10:18 PM
He will probably work all week on shooting lefty.

Again, hi-jacking....but, I actually broke my wrist (dominant hand) and played with a cast on it for 4 weeks. I was actually allowed to play with a knee pad placed over it.

If there is anyone who would ever do something like that and would BE EFFECTIVE (in terms of helping his team in any way he could), it would be Kyle! He's a beast!

Newton_14
03-29-2010, 10:23 PM
Poor guy doesn't even look like he can hold the scissors the right way!
I'm wondering if we're being kept in the dark about that wrist....it looks awful!
(Sorry to hi-jack the Scheyer thread....)

Kyle hasn't hit a shot from the field since re-injuring the wrist in the fall against Purdue.

Also, I have a theory. It made no sense to me at all that Kyle was guarding Dunn yesterday. For the life of me I could not understand what K was doing there. Jon has always always drawn the assignment to guard the sharp-shooting wing player/2 Guard, and has always been great at it. Plus with Kyle on Dunn it put Jon defending a 6'10 Small Forward, which meant at rebounding time Jon is inside trying to box out a 6'10 guy and Kyle (one of our best rebounders) is out on the perimeter with Dunn. Plus it put Kyle in early foul trouble.

It just did not add up for me. But then on the ride home from work today I hit on a theory. I think Kyle's wrist was banged up so badly K knew Kyle would struggle to make shots. And that meant Nolan and Jon absolutely had to score and score a lot. So maybe K was trying to save energy for Jon and figured if Jon was on Dunn it would end up hurting Jon's offense and with Kyle's wrist situation we could not afford to have Jon and Kyle struggle on offense.

Maybe I am off base here and K just felt Kyle was his best bet against Dunn, and the energy he spent chasing Dunn is what led to the off day shooting the ball. Maybe. But I am inclined to believe if Kyle's wrist was a non-issue, Jon would have been on Dunn.

Thoughts??

dukelifer
03-29-2010, 10:29 PM
Kyle hasn't hit a shot from the field since re-injuring the wrist in the fall against Purdue.

Also, I have a theory. It made no sense to me at all that Kyle was guarding Dunn yesterday. For the life of me I could not understand what K was doing there. Jon has always always drawn the assignment to guard the sharp-shooting wing player/2 Guard, and has always been great at it. Plus with Kyle on Dunn it put Jon defending a 6'10 Small Forward, which meant at rebounding time Jon is inside trying to box out a 6'10 guy and Kyle (one of our best rebounders) is out on the perimeter with Dunn. Plus it put Kyle in early foul trouble.

It just did not add up for me. But then on the ride home from work today I hit on a theory. I think Kyle's wrist was banged up so badly K knew Kyle would struggle to make shots. And that meant Nolan and Jon absolutely had to score and score a lot. So maybe K was trying to save energy for Jon and figured if Jon was on Dunn it would end up hurting Jon's offense and with Kyle's wrist situation we could not afford to have Jon and Kyle struggle on offense.

Maybe I am off base here and K just felt Kyle was his best bet against Dunn, and the energy he spent chasing Dunn is what led to the off day shooting the ball. Maybe. But I am inclined to believe if Kyle's wrist was a non-issue, Jon would have been on Dunn.

Thoughts??
Maybe- but it does not explain the three point attempts by Kyle going 0-5. But energy could be an issue and also his size was likely to bother Dunn.

greybeard
03-30-2010, 12:19 AM
Maybe- but it does not explain the three point attempts by Kyle going 0-5. But energy could be an issue and also his size was likely to bother Dunn.

I think it likely that Boozer nailed it. Even in the post-game press conference, neither K nor the players mentioned anything about Kyle's wrist even though they were specifically asked about his 0 for 10 shooting. My guess is that his hand was numbed.

He actually looked good on at least the last of his three-ball attempts, the one that Lance jammed back in (how sweet was that). In fact, the ball seemed to be one of those that went halfway down and a hard wind blew it back out.

The hand looks terribly nasty. One only hopes that the swelling subsides and he has a chance to play somewhere near his regular game. Kyle has been super ever since they stopped playing him like a guard, and his run on offense through the ACC and then NCAA tournament up through the Baylor game was, in my mind, at a First Team All American level. One hopes for him and his team, not to mention the faithful, that he gets to finish it out that way this season.

DevilHorns
03-30-2010, 12:27 AM
He just needs one hand anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEG2qmMvIGE