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View Full Version : Why Can't CBS Follow the Common-Law Rules for Tournament Seeds?



Mudge
03-21-2010, 11:04 PM
Once again, CBS will screw Duke next Friday-- and the irony is that Duke gets the shaft precisely because of our success and larger national following than any other basketball school.

Duke will play the late game on Friday night (9:57 PM ET tipoff), instead of the ~7:30 PM tipoff that lower-seeded Baylor will enjoy-- all because CBS wants the more popular team playing at a time when its game can be shown in the evening in the Mountain and Pacific time zones (my suspicion). This is even more ironic, given that two Eastern schools (Duke and Purdue) will play later, while two more Westerly schools (Baylor and St. Mary's, that actually have fans out in those further West time zones) will play the early game, just so CBS can take advantage of Duke (in more ways than one).

Normally, in any tournament run by competent administrators (cf.- the ACC tournament), the highest seeded teams always play first, so that they get the benefit of: 1)The longest rest period, between short-turnaround games; 2) A better schedule for the players, as they get to bed at a decent hour; and 3) The opportunity to scout their next opponent, having already won their game-- rather than having to assign one assistant coach to do it, because they still need to keep their attention on their upcoming game, while the prospective opponent is playing first.

There is no doubt that, given a choice, Duke would choose to play at 7:30 PM, hopefully win, and then have an extra 3 hours, in what is a less than 48-hour turnaround, to let Duke's players go to bed on regular schedules, and rest and prepare longer for the next possible game-- and to let the full coaching staff watch Baylor's game with their undivided attention. The ACC would never do this-- why does the NCAA allow CBS to futz with the schedule to boost ratings-- at the expense of the higher seeded teams involved... TV is intruding into the possible results, in a way that should not be allowed, no matter how much money CBS pays...

Before you say that the NCAA allows it because of the money-- somebody should point out to CBS that it is a lot more advantageous to them to have the higher-seeded teams winning in the earlier rounds, and getting to the Final Four, when many more potential fans are likely to tune in (especially if that team has the biggest national following), than to sell out the higher-seeded team on a Thursday or Friday night of an early round of the tournament, in order to gain a cheap (but insignificant) ratings boost on a night (and time period) when many casual fans won't tune in anyway.

By the way, the NCAA has also corrupted the intervals between rounds of the tournaments as well-- it used to be that teams that played on Thursday and Saturday stayed on that cycle all the way until the Final Four-- now teams that play on Friday/Sunday can be shifted on the second week to Thursday/Saturday, giving them one less day to prepare and rest up for the next round of the tournament than an opponent that played on the Thursday/Saturday round in both the first and second weekends of the tournament.

The same injustice has happened for years between the Regional Finals and the Final Four-- the teams that win Regionals on Saturday should meet each other in one National Semi-final, as should the ones that win Regionals on Sunday-- instead, CBS makes the two Sunday winners play the two Saturday winners, giving the Saturday winners an extra day of preparation, all, apparently, so that CBS can keep up the pretense of suspense overnight of "who will meets so-and-so next Saturday in the Final Four"-- doesn't CBS see that this is unfair and unmerited competitive advantage to the teams that play on the Thursday/Saturday cycle over the Friday/Sunday cycle teams?

Duke09
03-21-2010, 11:12 PM
Agreed. I hate how Duke often gets the late game, which during the regular season means missing the first 5-10 minutes of the game to watch the meaningless end to the 7 o'clock game.

gumbomoop
03-21-2010, 11:36 PM
Although I agree with the overall point of the OP, a correction: the Duke game is the late game Fri eve, but it's actually at 8:57 CDT [Houston].

It's still a bit of a disadvantage to play the 2d game, but a bit worse even for UK, which does in fact have a 9:57 EDT tip-off on Thurs eve. That could wind up a 10:15-ish tip-off. Blecchhh.

For Duke, I do hope the South region E8 game is the 2d game on Sunday. If it were to be Duke-St Mary's in South and Mich St-Ohio St in MW, I'd bet we'd get first Sunday game. Any other combo, I'd guess we're 2d game.

But I don't know that K and his guys will care as much as we posters, who fret about absolutely everything.

Mudge
03-21-2010, 11:54 PM
Although I agree with the overall point of the OP, a correction: the Duke game is the late game Fri eve, but it's actually at 8:57 CDT [Houston].

It's still a bit of a disadvantage to play the 2d game, but a bit worse even for UK, which does in fact have a 9:57 EDT tip-off on Thurs eve. That could wind up a 10:15-ish tip-off. Blecchhh.

For Duke, I do hope the South region E8 game is the 2d game on Sunday. If it were to be Duke-St Mary's in South and Mich St-Ohio St in MW, I'd bet we'd get first Sunday game. Any other combo, I'd guess we're 2d game.

But I don't know that K and his guys will care as much as we posters, who fret about absolutely everything.

You understand that this changes none of the issues that I raised-- the earlier game is thus a ~6:30 PM Central time start-- still giving the winner the 3 hour advantage, and the advantage of playing, winning, and then putting its undivided attention on scouting Duke/Purdue-- this right should go to the higher seeded team-- not the lower one.

gumbomoop
03-22-2010, 12:27 AM
You understand that this changes none of the issues that I raised-- the earlier game is thus a ~6:30 PM Central time start-- still giving the winner the 3 hour advantage, and the advantage of playing, winning, and then putting its undivided attention on scouting Duke/Purdue-- this right should go to the higher seeded team-- not the lower one.

Yes, I do understand that, which is why I began by saying I agree with the overall point you made. I think just maybe you are chastising me ever so slightly for not reading carefully. Back at you, ever so slightly.

So I was "correcting" not your fundamentally sound irritation, but simply saying that at least our guys won't be starting at 10-ish local [Houston] time, unlike UK, which will suffer even worse from the schedule-money-gods crap.

I did want to extend your fundamentally sound irritation, however, with the comments about my hopes for a Sunday late game, for I think your point is made ever more relevant if our guys get that much less rest - generally - if they're given the early game Sunday. [I am quite aware that I am assuming a Duke win by around 11 pm, CDT, Fri eve.] I do worry a little about a MSt-OSt potential "marquee" matchup Sunday. Not to mention that I'd just like to see UNI keep going, for they were inspired and fun to watch against KU.

But while you and I are sensibly irritated about this, I'll be happy to put up with this stuff, even if it means our guys finish late on Fri and start early on Sunday.

Mudge
03-22-2010, 01:13 AM
Yes, I do understand that, which is why I began by saying I agree with the overall point you made. I think just maybe you are chastising me ever so slightly for not reading carefully. Back at you, ever so slightly.

So I was "correcting" not your fundamentally sound irritation, but simply saying that at least our guys won't be starting at 10-ish local [Houston] time, unlike UK, which will suffer even worse from the schedule-money-gods crap.

I did want to extend your fundamentally sound irritation, however, with the comments about my hopes for a Sunday late game, for I think your point is made ever more relevant if our guys get that much less rest - generally - if they're given the early game Sunday. [I am quite aware that I am assuming a Duke win by around 11 pm, CDT, Fri eve.] I do worry a little about a MSt-OSt potential "marquee" matchup Sunday. Not to mention that I'd just like to see UNI keep going, for they were inspired and fun to watch against KU.

But while you and I are sensibly irritated about this, I'll be happy to put up with this stuff, even if it means our guys finish late on Fri and start early on Sunday.

OK-- agreed-- all Duke fans want the rigors of being forced to play short turnarounds-- as it means that Duke is still playing.

uh_no
03-22-2010, 01:29 AM
Once again, CBS will screw Duke next Friday-- and the irony is that Duke gets the shaft precisely because of our success and larger national following than any other basketball school.

Duke will play the late game on Friday night (9:57 PM ET tipoff), instead of the ~7:30 PM tipoff that lower-seeded Baylor will enjoy-- all because CBS wants the more popular team playing at a time when its game can be shown in the evening in the Mountain and Pacific time zones (my suspicion). This is even more ironic, given that two Eastern schools (Duke and Purdue) will play later, while two more Westerly schools (Baylor and St. Mary's, that actually have fans out in those further West time zones) will play the early game, just so CBS can take advantage of Duke (in more ways than one).

Normally, in any tournament run by competent administrators (cf.- the ACC tournament), the highest seeded teams always play first, so that they get the benefit of: 1)The longest rest period, between short-turnaround games; 2) A better schedule for the players, as they get to bed at a decent hour; and 3) The opportunity to scout their next opponent, having already won their game-- rather than having to assign one assistant coach to do it, because they still need to keep their attention on their upcoming game, while the prospective opponent is playing first.

There is no doubt that, given a choice, Duke would choose to play at 7:30 PM, hopefully win, and then have an extra 3 hours, in what is a less than 48-hour turnaround, to let Duke's players go to bed on regular schedules, and rest and prepare longer for the next possible game-- and to let the full coaching staff watch Baylor's game with their undivided attention. The ACC would never do this-- why does the NCAA allow CBS to futz with the schedule to boost ratings-- at the expense of the higher seeded teams involved... TV is intruding into the possible results, in a way that should not be allowed, no matter how much money CBS pays...

Before you say that the NCAA allows it because of the money-- somebody should point out to CBS that it is a lot more advantageous to them to have the higher-seeded teams winning in the earlier rounds, and getting to the Final Four, when many more potential fans are likely to tune in (especially if that team has the biggest national following), than to sell out the higher-seeded team on a Thursday or Friday night of an early round of the tournament, in order to gain a cheap (but insignificant) ratings boost on a night (and time period) when many casual fans won't tune in anyway.

By the way, the NCAA has also corrupted the intervals between rounds of the tournaments as well-- it used to be that teams that played on Thursday and Saturday stayed on that cycle all the way until the Final Four-- now teams that play on Friday/Sunday can be shifted on the second week to Thursday/Saturday, giving them one less day to prepare and rest up for the next round of the tournament than an opponent that played on the Thursday/Saturday round in both the first and second weekends of the tournament.

The same injustice has happened for years between the Regional Finals and the Final Four-- the teams that win Regionals on Saturday should meet each other in one National Semi-final, as should the ones that win Regionals on Sunday-- instead, CBS makes the two Sunday winners play the two Saturday winners, giving the Saturday winners an extra day of preparation, all, apparently, so that CBS can keep up the pretense of suspense overnight of "who will meets so-and-so next Saturday in the Final Four"-- doesn't CBS see that this is unfair and unmerited competitive advantage to the teams that play on the Thursday/Saturday cycle over the Friday/Sunday cycle teams?

I don't know where to begin with this

first towards your rest qualm

if you look at it 1 way...we have two hours rest between our second round game and the next one!....or you could realize that two hours doesn't make sqaut difference over two days

to your 'scouting' argument....there is this wonderful invention called a camera which allows you to record a game and watch it in its entirety later....this also means that the players can compress 2 hours of game time into 20 minutes or so.....spending the other hour 40 on other things.....perhaps this is an advantage?

you say that they would 'undoubtedly prefer' the early game....are you an insider? or are you just guessing that duke would rather play a game at 6 than at 9? perhaps they like the late tip because they can sleep in? who knows...not I, but they have played 9pm games before, and will play them again....so I'd hope K is able to adequetly prepare them for a 9pm tip

there was never a system to allow teams to keep the th-S and F-S schedules from the pod to the regional sites becuase pods can be assigned to any region. pods play on a specified set of days, and regions schedules are also set previously (in terms of day) therefore it is likely to play on saturday then friday and just as likely to play sunday then thursday....if the players can't manage a 4 day turnaround when they've had 2-3 days the rest of the season.......

also wouldn't this effectively screw anyone who played the regional final on sunday? because they'd have 1 less day to prepare for the national semi's than a region that ended on saturday! oh the injustice!

Mudge
03-22-2010, 01:49 AM
I don't know where to begin with this

first towards your rest qualm

if you look at it 1 way...we have two hours rest between our second round game and the next one!....or you could realize that two hours doesn't make sqaut difference over two days

to your 'scouting' argument....there is this wonderful invention called a camera which allows you to record a game and watch it in its entirety later....this also means that the players can compress 2 hours of game time into 20 minutes or so.....spending the other hour 40 on other things.....perhaps this is an advantage?

you say that they would 'undoubtedly prefer' the early game....are you an insider? or are you just guessing that duke would rather play a game at 6 than at 9? perhaps they like the late tip because they can sleep in? who knows...not I, but they have played 9pm games before, and will play them again....so I'd hope K is able to adequetly prepare them for a 9pm tip

there was never a system to allow teams to keep the th-S and F-S schedules from the pod to the regional sites becuase pods can be assigned to any region. pods play on a specified set of days, and regions schedules are also set previously (in terms of day) therefore it is likely to play on saturday then friday and just as likely to play sunday then thursday....if the players can't manage a 4 day turnaround when they've had 2-3 days the rest of the season.......

also wouldn't this effectively screw anyone who played the regional final on sunday? because they'd have 1 less day to prepare for the national semi's than a region that ended on saturday! oh the injustice!

and I don't know where to start with the above nonsense, but will try:

1) It's more like 3 hours-- and it absolutely makes a difference, when you only have 40-45 hours between games-- you're silly if you think it doesn't matter to the team--and if you think there isn't a reason that the ACC never does this to higher seeded teams.

2)Duke's coaching staff, if they win Friday, of course will watch film of the opponent-- but you'll notice that coaches (like Tom Izzo today) watch the game of their opponent following their game, IN PERSON anyway-- because there are always things that you might see in person, with your undivided attention, that might not be visible on a game tape.

3) I am betting that Duke players sleep in to the same time, whether they have a 6 pm or a 9 PM start time that night-- but they sure don't get to bed at the same time after each of those games, for the practice day following that night game... Wake up!

4) The pods are a relatively recent invention-- to say that there was never a system that kept teams on either a Thurs/Sat or a Fri/Sun rotation is silly and ignorant-- this was the way of the NCAA tournament for many, MANY years, before split pods became a feature of the tourney.

5) It's not a question of whether the players can handle a 4-day turnaround-- it's a question of whether a 5-day turnaround offers (at least some) advantages over a 4-day turnaround for your opponent, or not-- and if it does, why isn't it being eliminated as a possible differential... put another way, if you ask Duke's coaches would they rather have 5 days while their opponent has 4 days, or vice versa, I think I know which one Duke would choose. It's not for you to decide to gloss over small, but meaningful differences in the advantages some teams are being granted by the inequity of the tourney scheduling system.

6) You obviously completely missed the point about the winners (of the regional finals played on Sunday) meeting each other-- if they play on the following Saturday, then BOTH TEAMS that played on Sunday have exactly the same time to prepare for the following Saturday's Semi-final, as do both teams that won Regional Finals on Saturday, if THEY play each other the following week... which then gets evened out (somewhat) by both winners playing two days later (though the first winner gets the advantage of an extra ~3 hours on a short turnaround, again.)

NYC Duke Fan
03-22-2010, 06:27 AM
This is being so over analyzed. If you are a good team you will win at 7:30, 10:00 PM or 2:00 AM.

The time set for the Duke game is only bothersome for the Duke fans living in the East who would rather not start to watch the game beginning at 10:00PM.

It is on a Friday night and those of us who do not work on Saturday will not mind, unless of course you have a very early tee time on Saturday morning. .

THE best match up, at least for a great basketball story, is the Kentucky-Cornell game which also starts at around 10:00 in the East.

While in the last Presidential Election, the country voted Blue, on Thursday night, with the exception of the population of Kentucky, ( except the Louisville fans), and Ashley Judd, the entire basketball world will be pulling for RED !!!

theAlaskanBear
03-22-2010, 06:37 AM
This is being so over analyzed. If you are a good team you will win at 7:30, 10:00 PM or 2:00 AM.

The time set for the Duke game is only bothersome for the Duke fans living in the East who would rather not start to watch the game beginning at 10:00PM.

It is on a Friday night and those of us who do not work on Saturday will not mind, unless of course you have a very early tee time on Saturday morning. .

THE best match up, at least for a great basketball story, is the Kentucky-Cornell game which also starts at around 10:00 in the East.

While in the last Presidential Election, the country voted Blue, on Thursday night, with the exception of the population of Kentucky, ( except the Louisville fans), and Ashley Judd, the entire basketball world will be pulling for RED !!!

I'm gonna be the biggest Cornell fan, for at least one night.

By the way, I am SSOOOOO sick of hearing about Ashley Judd. Everytime Kentucky has played a game for the last 10 years, I have had to hear her name!! WE GET THE POINT. When was the last time she was in a nationally relevant movie?

oldnavy
03-22-2010, 06:48 AM
Once again, CBS will screw Duke next Friday-- and the irony is that Duke gets the shaft precisely because of our success and larger national following than any other basketball school.

Duke will play the late game on Friday night (9:57 PM ET tipoff), instead of the ~7:30 PM tipoff that lower-seeded Baylor will enjoy-- all because CBS wants the more popular team playing at a time when its game can be shown in the evening in the Mountain and Pacific time zones (my suspicion). This is even more ironic, given that two Eastern schools (Duke and Purdue) will play later, while two more Westerly schools (Baylor and St. Mary's, that actually have fans out in those further West time zones) will play the early game, just so CBS can take advantage of Duke (in more ways than one).

Normally, in any tournament run by competent administrators (cf.- the ACC tournament), the highest seeded teams always play first, so that they get the benefit of: 1)The longest rest period, between short-turnaround games; 2) A better schedule for the players, as they get to bed at a decent hour; and 3) The opportunity to scout their next opponent, having already won their game-- rather than having to assign one assistant coach to do it, because they still need to keep their attention on their upcoming game, while the prospective opponent is playing first.

There is no doubt that, given a choice, Duke would choose to play at 7:30 PM, hopefully win, and then have an extra 3 hours, in what is a less than 48-hour turnaround, to let Duke's players go to bed on regular schedules, and rest and prepare longer for the next possible game-- and to let the full coaching staff watch Baylor's game with their undivided attention. The ACC would never do this-- why does the NCAA allow CBS to futz with the schedule to boost ratings-- at the expense of the higher seeded teams involved... TV is intruding into the possible results, in a way that should not be allowed, no matter how much money CBS pays...

Before you say that the NCAA allows it because of the money-- somebody should point out to CBS that it is a lot more advantageous to them to have the higher-seeded teams winning in the earlier rounds, and getting to the Final Four, when many more potential fans are likely to tune in (especially if that team has the biggest national following), than to sell out the higher-seeded team on a Thursday or Friday night of an early round of the tournament, in order to gain a cheap (but insignificant) ratings boost on a night (and time period) when many casual fans won't tune in anyway.

By the way, the NCAA has also corrupted the intervals between rounds of the tournaments as well-- it used to be that teams that played on Thursday and Saturday stayed on that cycle all the way until the Final Four-- now teams that play on Friday/Sunday can be shifted on the second week to Thursday/Saturday, giving them one less day to prepare and rest up for the next round of the tournament than an opponent that played on the Thursday/Saturday round in both the first and second weekends of the tournament.

The same injustice has happened for years between the Regional Finals and the Final Four-- the teams that win Regionals on Saturday should meet each other in one National Semi-final, as should the ones that win Regionals on Sunday-- instead, CBS makes the two Sunday winners play the two Saturday winners, giving the Saturday winners an extra day of preparation, all, apparently, so that CBS can keep up the pretense of suspense overnight of "who will meets so-and-so next Saturday in the Final Four"-- doesn't CBS see that this is unfair and unmerited competitive advantage to the teams that play on the Thursday/Saturday cycle over the Friday/Sunday cycle teams?
Careful here, don't want anyone to read this and think that they have accidently stumbled onto IC. Just as we loathe those would dream up conspiracy theories on how Duke gets all the breaks, we should equally loathe conspiracy theories of how the man conspires to hold us down.

I think that your overall argument is sound in that the late time slot is not ideal, but in the big practical picture I doubt that it will be a difference maker. And remember CBS is trying to make money, it is what businesses in this great country do. We are still a capitalist economy, at least for the time being.

NYC Duke Fan
03-22-2010, 07:38 AM
I'm gonna be the biggest Cornell fan, for at least one night.

By the way, I am SSOOOOO sick of hearing about Ashley Judd. Everytime Kentucky has played a game for the last 10 years, I have had to hear her name!! WE GET THE POINT. When was the last time she was in a nationally relevant movie?

How about Never !!!

tele
03-22-2010, 08:10 AM
I'm gonna be the biggest Cornell fan, for at least one night.

By the way, I am SSOOOOO sick of hearing about Ashley Judd. Everytime Kentucky has played a game for the last 10 years, I have had to hear her name!! WE GET THE POINT. When was the last time she was in a nationally relevant movie?

I thought she was a singer or something.

weezie
03-22-2010, 08:22 AM
There is no common law for networks, I'm afraid.
Eyeballs on screens, keisters in seats is the only natural law they adhere to.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-22-2010, 08:39 AM
This is being so over analyzed. If you are a good team you will win at 7:30, 10:00 PM or 2:00 AM.

The time set for the Duke game is only bothersome for the Duke fans living in the East who would rather not start to watch the game beginning at 10:00PM.

It is on a Friday night and those of us who do not work on Saturday will not mind, unless of course you have a very early tee time on Saturday morning.
The late start on Friday night actually works for me - I'm "working" a technical show next week that goes until 10:30 pm on Friday night, which obviously means I'm bugging out a few minutes (or more) early so I can catch the beginning of our game. If we played an early game I doubt I'd get to see it. Not sure how Sunday's Elite 8 game (hoping we'll get there!) will work out (show hours 12:00 noon until 7:30 pm) but I'll work out something! Maybe I'll get one of those new digital portable TV's :cool: If I get a Verizon Moto Droid would I be able to stream the game on the phone? Stray - what do you think?

GoingFor#5
03-22-2010, 09:37 AM
I will just say that if playing 2-3 hours later means we can't play well enough to win on Sunday, we don't deserve to go to the Final Four. This is close to twerping.

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 11:16 AM
I think the loss of a few hours affects the coaches more than the players. But I am confident that Duke will have plans for Pudue, and contingency plans for Baylor and St. Mary's, before leaving Durham. K's been to this rodeo a few times before.

Let the winner of Baylor/St. Mary's sit in the stands and watch. If we take care of business against Purdue, and drop the hammer, we send a message to those in waiting.


(And, if we don't take care of business, it's irrelevant. We all sleep in on Saturday).

BD80
03-22-2010, 11:25 AM
CBS basterds! Not only did they make us the late game, they put us opposite Michigan State! Bet we don't get the Duke game here in Michigan :mad:

pfrduke
03-22-2010, 12:01 PM
I have nothing of substance to add other than to say that the two most recent Mudge thread titles are superb.

UrinalCake
03-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Hey guys, we're all on the same team here! Can we end this needless bickering? I agree that playing the late game might make for a slight disadvantage should we advance, but I don't think the team will be complaining about the big fat check they get from NCAA, which is paid for in part by the TV money they generate. Nor will we be complaining when recruits choose to come to Duke because they want to be on TV in prime time more often. This is just the way it works so let's deal with it.

Tjenkins
03-22-2010, 12:30 PM
I don't recall Duke having any trouble playing in the late game in the 2001 Final Four.

Arizona had a few extra hours of rest, didn't help them too much on Monday night.

RPS
03-22-2010, 12:33 PM
Once again, CBS will screw Duke next Friday-- and the irony is that Duke gets the shaft precisely because of our success and larger national following than any other basketball school.

...

The same injustice has happened for years....

I don't have a major disagreement with your line of thought, but I think you're making waaaaaaay too much of it. My younger son is a D1 athlete (albeit in football, not hoops), and he thinks the idea of three hours (or the difference between five and six days -- Saturday or Sunday to Final Four Saturday) making a significant difference is silly. Without checking, I seem to recall numerous Duke wins in late games followed by subsequent Duke wins, so without data supporting your claim, I'm more than willing to dismiss it. And it hardly rises to the level of injustice. Besides, since I live on the West Coast, it works out quite well for me.

DukieInKansas
03-22-2010, 12:44 PM
and I don't know where to start with the above nonsense, but will try:

1) It's more like 3 hours-- and it absolutely makes a difference, when you only have 40-45 hours between games-- you're silly if you think it doesn't matter to the team--and if you think there isn't a reason that the ACC never does this to higher seeded teams.

2)Duke's coaching staff, if they win Friday, of course will watch film of the opponent-- but you'll notice that coaches (like Tom Izzo today) watch the game of their opponent following their game, IN PERSON anyway-- because there are always things that you might see in person, with your undivided attention, that might not be visible on a game tape.

3) I am betting that Duke players sleep in to the same time, whether they have a 6 pm or a 9 PM start time that night-- but they sure don't get to bed at the same time after each of those games, for the practice day following that night game... Wake up!

4) The pods are a relatively recent invention-- to say that there was never a system that kept teams on either a Thurs/Sat or a Fri/Sun rotation is silly and ignorant-- this was the way of the NCAA tournament for many, MANY years, before split pods became a feature of the tourney.

5) It's not a question of whether the players can handle a 4-day turnaround-- it's a question of whether a 5-day turnaround offers (at least some) advantages over a 4-day turnaround for your opponent, or not-- and if it does, why isn't it being eliminated as a possible differential... put another way, if you ask Duke's coaches would they rather have 5 days while their opponent has 4 days, or vice versa, I think I know which one Duke would choose. It's not for you to decide to gloss over small, but meaningful differences in the advantages some teams are being granted by the inequity of the tourney scheduling system.

6) You obviously completely missed the point about the winners (of the regional finals played on Sunday) meeting each other-- if they play on the following Saturday, then BOTH TEAMS that played on Sunday have exactly the same time to prepare for the following Saturday's Semi-final, as do both teams that won Regional Finals on Saturday, if THEY play each other the following week... which then gets evened out (somewhat) by both winners playing two days later (though the first winner gets the advantage of an extra ~3 hours on a short turnaround, again.)

Re #2 above - Tom Izzo and MSU were watching the game after theirs. However, it was the TAMU/Purdue game from the South Regional. The only time they would play each other in the tournament is if both made the championship game. And the players were doing more lounging & texting than scouting.

cptnflash
03-22-2010, 12:46 PM
I have nothing of substance to add other than to say that the two most recent Mudge thread titles are superb.

As is the content posted underneath those thread titles. Great work, Mudge!

noyac
03-22-2010, 01:23 PM
Its like some of us complaining about being popular?

In all seriousness I understand your complaints and they seem relevant if CBS was more concerned about fairness than ratings, but Duke is popular we need to embrace it and accept the negatives and positives that come with it.

If Duke were not as popular as they are then I and many of you would not get to see them play nearly every game of the regular season since alot of us are not in ACC territory

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 01:29 PM
Doesn't Dre have like a 9 o'clock curfew or something? I mean, that kid is young.



CBS actually follows the Napoleonic Code.

Ne vous inquiétez pas ce que vous pensez parce que nous avons le contrat au tournoi. Si vous ne l'aimez pas vous pouvez aller saut dans un lac. Et Letterman donnera un coup de pied toujours la culotte de Leno. Prenez ainsi cela, ventilateurs américains du comportement de rebondissement de boule !

allenmurray
03-22-2010, 01:29 PM
Its like some of us complaining about being popular?

In all seriousness I understand your complaints and they seem relevant if CBS was more concerned about fairness than ratings, but Duke is popular we need to embrace it and accept the negatives and positives that come with it.

If Duke were not as popular as they are then I and many of you would not get to see them play nearly every game of the regular season since alot of us are not in ACC territory

Bingo. You have to take the fleas with the dog.

I like that virtually every Duke game is on television. Why is that true for us and for so very few other schools? Because of our popularity. Which is the same reason they are playing late on Friday. Is it fair? No. Neither is a lot of what happens in life. The tournament is a money-making operation for the network, for the NCAA, and for the individual schools. When the more popular teams play is based on finances, not on fairness.

RPS
03-22-2010, 01:47 PM
Bingo. You have to take the fleas with the dog.

I like that virtually every Duke game is on television. Why is that true for us and for so very few other schools? Because of our popularity. Which is the same reason they are playing late on Friday. Is it fair? No. Neither is a lot of what happens in life. The tournament is a money-making operation for the network, for the NCAA, and for the individual schools. When the more popular teams play is based on finances, not on fairness.I'll also note that this "fairness" cuts both ways. Due to popularity, success and the attention they bring, it's a lot easier to recruit players to Duke than to, for example, Southwest Missouri State. Being seen by more people can only help our popularity going forward. I can easily imagine supporters or "lesser" schools saying that it's unfair to give Duke such a prime spot....

OldPhiKap
03-22-2010, 01:53 PM
Y'all are missing the big picture.

The NCAA Selection Committee has conspired to get Duke to the Final Four by giving us such an easy bracket.

CBS is conspiring to defeat Duke by giving them a quick turn-around in Houston.

This goes all the way to the top. The entire weight of the collegiate educational system versus the mediaoligarchy. Conflicting capitalistic interests.

Take the red pill, Neo. All shall be revealed.

allenmurray
03-22-2010, 01:57 PM
I'll also note that this "fairness" cuts both ways. Due to popularity, success and the attention they bring, it's a lot easier to recruit players to Duke than to, for example, Southwest Missouri State. Being seen by more people can only help our popularity going forward. I can easily imagine supporters or "lesser" schools saying that it's unfair to give Duke such a prime spot....

You are right, supporters of other schools will probably make that claim. However, I don't think CBS cares about much other than what will make them the most money. If it somehow was in the financial interest of CBS for us to play at 2:47 in the morning, while wearing elf shoes and chef's toques, and they thought they could somehow enforce that, that is what they would have us do. Thier responsibilty is not to fairness, or even to college basketball, but to their shareholders.

AtlDuke72
03-22-2010, 01:59 PM
By the way, I am SSOOOOO sick of hearing about Ashley Judd. Everytime Kentucky has played a game for the last 10 years, I have had to hear her name!! WE GET THE POINT. When was the last time she was in a nationally relevant movie?

I totally disagree. Ashley Judd sightings are the only reason to watch Kentucky play. You have been out in the woods too long, Alaskan Bear.

Greg_Newton
03-22-2010, 02:22 PM
I totally disagree. Ashley Judd sightings are the only reason to watch Kentucky play. You have been out in the woods too long, Alaskan Bear.

I'm on AB's side here... Ashley Judd is hugely overrated. Why fans seem to consistently be in awe of this mildly attractive 41 year old woman is beyond me.

UK's coeds, now that's a different story...

noyac
03-22-2010, 02:24 PM
You are right, supporters of other schools will probably make that claim. However, I don't think CBS cares about much other than what will make them the most money. If it somehow was in the financial interest of CBS for us to play at 2:47 in the morning, while wearing elf shoes and chef's toques, and they thought they could somehow enforce that, that is what they would have us do. Thier responsibilty is not to fairness, or even to college basketball, but to their shareholders.

I agree CBS is trying to make their 6 billion dollars back before their contract is up with the NCAA, they may have made it back already and are for some reason trying to make a profit.

The executives are looking for one thing when they broadcast a tv show or a game and that is higher ratings/expected ratings because that drives up the prices of commercials and that in turn drives up profit

Higher ratings/expected ratings=higher advertising prices
higher advertising prices=more profit

You can bet they did an analysis of all possible scenarios of Sweet 16 matchups based on their average amount of viewers in and out of market during this regular season and postseason (Conference Tourney's and early rounds of NCAA including internet viewing). They probably even looked at historical amount of viewers. They then determined what the highest possible average of expected ratings for a given time slot is based on what teams may be playing there and once the matchups are determined assign the games accordingly.

I don't have a beef with this process but if you do I suggest it is with the NCAA and not CBS for agreeing to a contract that allows CBS to maximize profits.

RPS
03-22-2010, 02:40 PM
You are right, supporters of other schools will probably make that claim. However, I don't think CBS cares about much other than what will make them the most money. If it somehow was in the financial interest of CBS for us to play at 2:47 in the morning, while wearing elf shoes and chef's toques, and they thought they could somehow enforce that, that is what they would have us do. Thier responsibilty is not to fairness, or even to college basketball, but to their shareholders.I agree (of course).

BD80
03-22-2010, 02:55 PM
... CBS actually follows the Napoleonic Code.

Ne vous inquiétez pas ce que vous pensez parce que nous avons le contrat au tournoi. Si vous ne l'aimez pas vous pouvez aller saut dans un lac. Et Letterman donnera un coup de pied toujours la culotte de Leno. Prenez ainsi cela, ventilateurs américains du comportement de rebondissement de boule !

Friggin' french. We should never have rescued them after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

Figures that a frenchman would relate to the bitter old man that is Letterman.


I'm on AB's side here... Ashley Judd is hugely overrated. Why fans seem to consistently be in awe of this mildly attractive 41 year old woman is beyond me. ...

Hey, she is attractive (not gorgeous) and her ardor for the game moves her way up the scale.

No matter, we have a Scheyer sibling:

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1428895701076606885xdwjVV

We win!

uh_no
03-22-2010, 02:59 PM
cbs actually follows the napoleonic code.



stelllaaaa!! Hey stelllllllaaaaaaaa!

allenmurray
03-22-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree CBS is trying to make their 6 billion dollars back before their contract is up with the NCAA, they may have made it back already and are for some reason trying to make a profit.

I don't have a beef with this process but if you do I suggest it is with the NCAA and not CBS for agreeing to a contract that allows CBS to maximize profits. :confused:

I have no problem with it at all. I don't think I ever indicated I did. CBS has every right to maxzimize their profits on the tournament coverge. Now if they decide to require the elf shoes . . .

noyac
03-22-2010, 03:51 PM
I have no problem with it at all. I don't think I ever indicated I did. CBS has every right to maxzimize their profits on the tournament coverge. Now if they decide to require the elf shoes . . .

I am sorry my entire post was not directed at you just the part that I agree with you and I tried to explain how I think the game times are determined The last part was a general statement to any that have a problem with the way CBS determines game times is an issue with the NCAA not CBS because like we both said CBS is trying to maximize profits. The problem some people on this thread have should be with the NCAA for allowing CBS to control game times rather than the selection commitee or another entity.

Again I am sorry if you misconstrued any of my comments as disrespectful. I assure you that was not my intention we seem to see eye to eye on this issue.

Mudge
03-23-2010, 12:01 AM
Bingo. You have to take the fleas with the dog.

I like that virtually every Duke game is on television. Why is that true for us and for so very few other schools? Because of our popularity. Which is the same reason they are playing late on Friday. Is it fair? No. Neither is a lot of what happens in life. The tournament is a money-making operation for the network, for the NCAA, and for the individual schools. When the more popular teams play is based on finances, not on fairness.

Ahh, je comprend-- Noblesse oblige... D'accord.

sagegrouse
03-23-2010, 12:07 AM
I am sorry my entire post was not directed at you just the part that I agree with you and I tried to explain how I think the game times are determined The last part was a general statement to any that have a problem with the way CBS determines game times is an issue with the NCAA not CBS because like we both said CBS is trying to maximize profits. The problem some people on this thread have should be with the NCAA for allowing CBS to control game times rather than the selection commitee or another entity.

.

There is a book, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" that deals with the origin and importance of punctuation. It might be fun for you to read. I really have no idea what you are writing about.

sagegrouse
'Just kidding'

devildownunder
03-23-2010, 12:29 AM
Once again, CBS will screw Duke next Friday-- and the irony is that Duke gets the shaft precisely because of our success and larger national following than any other basketball school.

Duke will play the late game on Friday night (9:57 PM ET tipoff), instead of the ~7:30 PM tipoff that lower-seeded Baylor will enjoy-- all because CBS wants the more popular team playing at a time when its game can be shown in the evening in the Mountain and Pacific time zones (my suspicion). This is even more ironic, given that two Eastern schools (Duke and Purdue) will play later, while two more Westerly schools (Baylor and St. Mary's, that actually have fans out in those further West time zones) will play the early game, just so CBS can take advantage of Duke (in more ways than one).

Normally, in any tournament run by competent administrators (cf.- the ACC tournament), the highest seeded teams always play first, so that they get the benefit of: 1)The longest rest period, between short-turnaround games; 2) A better schedule for the players, as they get to bed at a decent hour; and 3) The opportunity to scout their next opponent, having already won their game-- rather than having to assign one assistant coach to do it, because they still need to keep their attention on their upcoming game, while the prospective opponent is playing first.

There is no doubt that, given a choice, Duke would choose to play at 7:30 PM, hopefully win, and then have an extra 3 hours, in what is a less than 48-hour turnaround, to let Duke's players go to bed on regular schedules, and rest and prepare longer for the next possible game-- and to let the full coaching staff watch Baylor's game with their undivided attention. The ACC would never do this-- why does the NCAA allow CBS to futz with the schedule to boost ratings-- at the expense of the higher seeded teams involved... TV is intruding into the possible results, in a way that should not be allowed, no matter how much money CBS pays...

Before you say that the NCAA allows it because of the money-- somebody should point out to CBS that it is a lot more advantageous to them to have the higher-seeded teams winning in the earlier rounds, and getting to the Final Four, when many more potential fans are likely to tune in (especially if that team has the biggest national following), than to sell out the higher-seeded team on a Thursday or Friday night of an early round of the tournament, in order to gain a cheap (but insignificant) ratings boost on a night (and time period) when many casual fans won't tune in anyway.

By the way, the NCAA has also corrupted the intervals between rounds of the tournaments as well-- it used to be that teams that played on Thursday and Saturday stayed on that cycle all the way until the Final Four-- now teams that play on Friday/Sunday can be shifted on the second week to Thursday/Saturday, giving them one less day to prepare and rest up for the next round of the tournament than an opponent that played on the Thursday/Saturday round in both the first and second weekends of the tournament.

The same injustice has happened for years between the Regional Finals and the Final Four-- the teams that win Regionals on Saturday should meet each other in one National Semi-final, as should the ones that win Regionals on Sunday-- instead, CBS makes the two Sunday winners play the two Saturday winners, giving the Saturday winners an extra day of preparation, all, apparently, so that CBS can keep up the pretense of suspense overnight of "who will meets so-and-so next Saturday in the Final Four"-- doesn't CBS see that this is unfair and unmerited competitive advantage to the teams that play on the Thursday/Saturday cycle over the Friday/Sunday cycle teams?

I don't think that last concern about elite 8/final four turnaround makes much difference. But the rest of this is a real concern, I think. On the other hand, we do also benefit by nearly always playing late on Friday in the first round, coming off a gruelling conf. tourney.

Jim3k
03-23-2010, 01:05 AM
Personally, I think Mudge is discriminating against those of us on the Left Coast. Stop it, Mudge, or I will unleash the tsunami or the Santa Anas upon you.

I prefer to watch in the early evening and I'll thank you to stop making an issue of this non-issue. In fact, why don't you just fly to Houston and see the boyz in person. Tix are available. That way you can see it really live. And eat some Tex-Mex at the same time.

Mudge
03-23-2010, 01:15 AM
Personally, I think Mudge is discriminating against those of us on the Left Coast. Stop it, Mudge, or I will unleash the tsunami or the Santa Anas upon you.

I prefer to watch in the early evening and I'll thank you to stop making an issue of this non-issue. In fact, why don't you just fly to Houston and see the boyz in person. Tix are available. That way you can see it really live. And eat some Tex-Mex at the same time.

Non, pas les Santa Anas!

Bob Green
03-23-2010, 06:11 AM
Personally, I think Mudge is discriminating against those of us on the Left Coast.

I don't understand Mudge's consternation as those of us on the East Coast are blessed with an 11:00 am Saturday morning tip-off. Of course, I'm referring to the East Coast of Japan. :D

Mudge
03-28-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't think that last concern about elite 8/final four turnaround makes much difference. But the rest of this is a real concern, I think. On the other hand, we do also benefit by nearly always playing late on Friday in the first round, coming off a gruelling conf. tourney.

Oh, how I hate to use idiots as my supporters... but last night Digger Phelps decided to cite the extra day that Butler and West Virginia will get between now and the tourney semi-finals next week as a reason to pick those two to win those games over whomever they face... According to Dumb Digger Dick "we see how much difference that extra wear-and-tear of overtimes made on Kansas State's performance against Butler today, and West Virginia and Butler are already resting up and reloading for their opponents next week-- it's not really right-- they should face each other, while tomorrow's opponents face each other next week."

All I know is that I am darn glad it wasn't Duke that played a two overtime game in the second game (which would have gone close to 1 AM EST), then had to make the short turnaround for today's game-- when it should have been Duke playing first, and making Baylor have to wait to play late. I always want to be on Thursday/Saturday rotation, not Friday/Sunday, with the earlier game every time, if possible.

pfrduke
03-28-2010, 12:42 PM
Oh, how I hate to use idiots as my supporters... but last night Digger Phelps decided to cite the extra day that Butler and West Virginia will get between now and the tourney semi-finals next week as a reason to pick those two to win those games over whomever they face... According to Dumb Digger Dick "we see how much difference that extra wear-and-tear of overtimes made on Kansas State's performance against Butler today, and West Virginia and Butler are already resting up and reloading for their opponents next week-- it's not really right-- they should face each other, while tomorrow's opponents face each other next week."

All I know is that I am darn glad it wasn't Duke that played a two overtime game in the second game (which would have gone close to 1 AM EST), then had to make the short turnaround for today's game-- when it should have been Duke playing first, and making Baylor have to wait to play late. I always want to be on Thursday/Saturday rotation, not Friday/Sunday, with the earlier game every time, if possible.

There's not a lot that can be done about Thursday/Saturday vs. Friday/Sunday. The dates for regional sites have to be set far in advance to allow for travel, tickets, etc. Next year's are already set, in fact: New Orleans and Anaheim are Thurs/Sat, Newark and San Antonio are Fri/Sun. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have the guys get a Fri/Sun in Newark than have to travel all the way to Anaheim just to play a day earlier.

I completely agree about the time issue - throughout the tournament, the higher seed should always be slotted for the earlier game. I know CBS won't do it b/c of ratings, but it's odd that the better teams are being given the shorter turnaround.

I don't agree with Digger, though. Barring an actual injury, I think the wear and tear of this weekend will be gone before Saturday, regardless of whether a team had the Thurs/Sat or Fri/Sun games. If Duke wins today, for example, a full 5 days off would be as long a break as the Devils have had since Christmas.

Mudge
03-28-2010, 12:52 PM
There's not a lot that can be done about Thursday/Saturday vs. Friday/Sunday. The dates for regional sites have to be set far in advance to allow for travel, tickets, etc. Next year's are already set, in fact: New Orleans and Anaheim are Thurs/Sat, Newark and San Antonio are Fri/Sun. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have the guys get a Fri/Sun in Newark than have to travel all the way to Anaheim just to play a day earlier.

I completely agree about the time issue - throughout the tournament, the higher seed should always be slotted for the earlier game. I know CBS won't do it b/c of ratings, but it's odd that the better teams are being given the shorter turnaround.

I don't agree with Digger, though. Barring an actual injury, I think the wear and tear of this weekend will be gone before Saturday, regardless of whether a team had the Thurs/Sat or Fri/Sun games. If Duke wins today, for example, a full 5 days off would be as long a break as the Devils have had since Christmas.

The solution is simple-- you stay Thurs/Sat or Fri/Sun (as it ALWAYS used to be) until the semifinals-- and the teams that won regionals on Saturday play one semi-final AGAINST EACH OTHER, while the teams that won regionals on Sunday play each other-- even now, it could be fixed, by simply pitting WVU against Butler and today's winners in the other semifinal.

94duke
03-28-2010, 01:07 PM
The solution is simple-- you stay Thurs/Sat or Fri/Sun (as it ALWAYS used to be) until the semifinals-- and the teams that won regionals on Saturday play one semi-final AGAINST EACH OTHER, while the teams that won regionals on Sunday play each other-- even now, it could be fixed, by simply pitting WVU against Butler and today's winners in the other semifinal.

I'm not sure you can do this with the "pod" setup.
It is currently setup so that the overall #1 seed plays the 4th #1, while the 2nd #1 plays the third.

basket1544
03-28-2010, 04:03 PM
I prefer the Friday/Sunday personally. I have a much better chance of getting off work on Friday night early enough to watch the game (especially if it is the later game) and it can go on all night without worry about getting up the next day for work. However, I know that's an entirely selfish reason for wanting the games on Friday/Sunday instead of Thursday/Saturday.
The championship game on Monday night always bugs me, but I'm glad they have an equal day off between the Final Four game and the NC.
I doubt the guys actually playing the game care about any of this. I can hear them saying we just want to play.