Power Conferences

[Saratoga2]

There was a lot of talk of which power conference was the strongest at the prelude to the tournament. One day in, maybe the pundits should be rethinking things.

Big East:
(3) Georgetown (L), Ohio (14)
(6) Marquette (L), Washington (11)
(6) Notre Dame (L), Old Dominion (11)
(2) Villanova (W-OT), Robert Morris (15)

ACC:
(9) Wake Forest (W), Texas (9)

Big 12:
(1) Kansas (W), Lehigh (16)
(2)Kansas St (W), North Texas (15)
(8) Texas (L), Wake Forest (9)
(3) Baylor (W), Sam Houston St (14)

SEC:
(1) Kentucky (W), E. Tennessee St (16)
(6) Tennessee (W), San Diego St (11)
(10) Florida (L), BYU (7)
(4) Vanderbilt, (L), Murray State (13)
Not positive Vanderbilt is in the SEC

Big Ten:
No games played

PAC 10:
(11) Washington (W), Marquette (6)

It is premature to draw any significant conclusions, however, 1 for 4 by the Big East makes one wonder if they are truly the most powerful conference in college basketball and whether they warranted 8 teams in the tourney.

[KyDevilinIL]

Vandy is in the SEC.

The Big East still has four games to play today, and it could easily be 5-3 in the first round after today. That's not what many people expected necessarily, but it's not awful. Thursday's group wasn't exactly the best of the conference's tourney offerings.

The ACC, meanwhile, has a couple of potentially tricky matchups today, but it's not unthinkable the league goes 6-0 in the first round. More likely, however, is 4-2, with perhaps a combination of FSU, Clemson and Ga Tech losing, although Houston over MD has become a trendy upset pick.

Who knows what will happen with the Big Ten.

[MChambers]

Vandy is in the SEC.

I think the OP was being sarcastic.

[KyDevilinIL]

I think the OP was being sarcastic.

Ha. Yeah, it must be on the fritz. Too early this morning for jokes.

Apologies.

[studdlee10]

Ha. Yeah, it must be on the fritz. Too early this morning for jokes.

Apologies.

The Big East also had a poor showing in the NIT. I know that those are the cream of the crop teams, but teams like Seton Hall and USF beat some of the upper echelon Big East teams, while NC State (save their win against Duke) didn't.

Looks like the Big East was just overrated all year, but their top teams WVA and 'Cuse can challenge and beat anybody. Yes, I am leaving 'Nova out on purpose, they are not a 2 seed and had that game handed to them by the refs yesterday. Big East should be 0-4

[Matches]

I wouldn't really hold up poor tourney play to date as "proof" the Big East was overrated. Small sample size and all that. That's sort of like using the ACC/ Big10 Challenge as "proof" that Big 10 > ACC.

Clearly the Big East's tournament performance to date has been a huge disappointment, though.

[Jarhead]

The Big East also had a poor showing in the NIT. I know that those are the cream of the crop teams, but teams like Seton Hall and USF beat some of the upper echelon Big East teams, while NC State (save their win against Duke) didn't.

Looks like the Big East was just overrated all year, but their top teams WVA and 'Cuse can challenge and beat anybody. Yes, I am leaving 'Nova out on purpose, they are not a 2 seed and had that game handed to them by the refs yesterday. Big East should be 0-4

Unlike many teams in other conferences who sometimes pad their schedules with powder puff opponents out of conference, the Big East finds all of their powder puff opponents right there in the conference.

[theAlaskanBear]

We need to see the results of todays game, before we even start to have this discussion. The ACC will lose at least one game today. My guess is Clemson, though it could be GT or both.

THe big east HAS been overrated top-to-bottom, but they could still get two final four teams!

And I have already started praying to awaken the Wake gods (the Father, Tim Duncan, and the Holy Spirit) and defeat UK on Saturday.

Without Carolina in the Tourney, I can truly have conference pride and root for all ACC teams!! GO ACC! GO DUKE!

[KyDevilinIL]

And I have already started praying to awaken the Wake gods (the Father, Tim Duncan, and the Holy Spirit) and defeat UK on Saturday.

Might want to avoid Duncan's ghost. The '96 Cats smacked his Wake team around in the tournament.

[DukieInKansas]

Might want to avoid Duncan's ghost. The '96 Cats smacked his Wake team around in the tournament.

Payback time!

[brevity]

Keeping score (at the end of the first round)...

5-2 Big 12: Kansas, Kansas State, Baylor, Texas A&M, Missouri
4-1 Big Ten: Ohio State, Purdue, Wisconsin, Michigan State
4-2 ACC: Duke, Maryland, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech
4-4 Big East: Syracuse, Villanova, West Virginia, Pittsburgh
2-0 Pac-10: California, Washington
2-0 WCC: Gonzaga, St. Mary's
2-2 MWC: New Mexico, BYU
2-2 SEC: Kentucky, Tennessee
1-0 CAA: Old Dominion
1-0 Horizon: Butler
1-0 Ivy: Cornell
1-0 MAC: Ohio
1-0 MVC: Northern Iowa
1-0 OVC: Murray State
1-2 A-10: Xavier

0-1 America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, MAAC, MEAC, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Summit, Sun Belt, SWAC
0-2 C-USA, WAC

[Saratoga2]

Wiith one full round behind us and the sweet 16 ahead, it is interesting to take another look at how the power conferences faired.

ACC

We have 4 alive (Duke, Maryland, GT and Wake) out of 6 at the outset. There is a decent chance of getting two into the sweet 16. I give no chance to Wake and GT it's possible but not likely.

Big 10

They did well to have 4 teams of 5 survive. I would guess that Ohio St and Wisconsin have the best bet at moving to the sweet 16 with Michigan state and Purdue having a less of a chance.

Big 12

They performed really well and have 5 of 7 teams advancing with a good chance of all 5 (Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri, TexaS A&M, & Baylor reaching the sweet 16

Big East

Not such a good performance, with 4 of 8 advancing. Of those, Syracuse and West Va. will likely advance, with Pittsburgh having a 50/50 chance and Villanova looking weak.

SEC

Not so good there either with 2 of 4 teams advancing. The 800 pound gorilla is Kentucky with Tennessee with maybe a 50/50 chance of advancin

Pac 10 (12)
Two in and 2 advance. California will have big trouble with Duke and Washington will also have trouble with New Mexico. Probably no team here gets in.


My guess is 11 of the sweet 16 will come from power conferences, with the big 12 being the most represented. It looks like all of the #1 seeds will advance, but perhaps one #2 seed (Villanova) is in for a verytough match.

[Delaware]

I thought the Big 12 looked like the best conference all year and it is looking like it right now... I think all 5 may get to the Sweet 16. When the brackets came out, my eyes went to Texas A&M and Baylor. Having to go through those two potentially in Big 12 country is going to be a tough challenge for this Duke team, but still think we have a shot at the FF.
Big 10 also is doing well, but if you look at the close calls by Mich St. and Wisco, it doesn't look impressive.

[Saratoga2]

Well, we have the slate completed for the sweet 16. Of the power conferences, the Big 10 can crow, with Ohio St, Michigan State and Purdue coming through. The Big East got Syracuse and West Va in. The Big 12 got Kansas St, and Baylor in, the SEC got Kentucky and Tennessee and the Pac 10/12 got Washington, and the ACC got Duke with a good showing from Maryland which just fell short. 5 of the Sweet 16 are from non power conferences.


The shocker is no Kansas. Based on matchups, we still have a good chance of advancing. Looking forward to next weeks games.

[Deslok]

I always like to look at overall records as well as expectations with regard to seed. Makes it easier to me to see which conference have seemed to underperform in the tourney to that point. I look at 2 things with regard to seed, expected wins(i.e. a 1 seed should get 4 wins, so Kansas losing puts them at -3, while Washington's move into the Sweet 16 is 2 wins more than expected) and seed differential(basically, if a 12 beats a 5 seed, they gain 7 seed points, a 3 losing to a 14 loses 11 seed points). Through the Sweet 16, here's how things stack up:
ACC: 5-5 record, +0 expected wins, +0 seed differential.
Big 10: 7-2 record, +0 expected wins, -7 seed differential
Big 12: 7-5 record, -5 expected wins, -10 seed differential
Big East: 6-6 record, -7 expected wins, -32 seed differential
Pac 10: 3-1 record, +2 expected wins, +13 seed differential
SEC: 2-2 record, -1 expected wins, -9 seed differential

Just a note, it is almost impossible for major conferences to get a positive seed differential, as they are invariably the high seeds, and losing one high seed early to an underdog can only be made up by one of their also rans(10 seed or so) making a run to the Elite 8. So the Pac 10's number is rather extraordinary, but accounted for by their utter lack of any high seeds(and I won't include the Pac 10 or SEC in the conference discussion below because of their anomalously low # of teams).

The Big 10 does clearly lead the way with the overall record. But they haven't really exceeded expectations along the way... yet. By seeding, the conference is only expected to get 1 more win(OSU as a 2 seed should make the regional final). So if they can pick up 2+ they will have exceeded their forecast, which is tough with all the upsets. The Big 12, while doing pretty well, is really hampered by Kansas's loss. So they will need to get K St and/or Baylor to the final 4 to get to the level of the Big 10(and have the Big 10 do nothing else). The ACC comes in next, and is pretty much on par. They haven't done worse than expected, but they haven't done better. And maintaining their status is contingent on Duke advancing to the Final 4. So not a great year for the ACC, but not one that hurts. And then there is the Big East. Yeah, they still have 2 teams alive in the Sweet 16. But they are 7 wins short of where they were expected to be - to get that to even, Syracuse would have to play West Virginia for the championship, to get them to even with expectations. And -32 on seed differential is horrific which they have no shot at making any ground up on.

Just some numbers that amuse me each year to look at.

[mgtr]

Hard to analyze it all, but I would say that the ACC may have been overrated and the Pac-10 underrated. (Although Marylands loss sort of came down to a coin flip, they still lost).

[77devil]

Hard to analyze it all, but I would say that the ACC may have been overrated and the Pac-10 underrated. (Although Marylands loss sort of came down to a coin flip, they still lost).

Pretty straightforward from my perspective. The Big East, with a plethora of high seeds, clearly was overrated and underperformed significantly while the Big Ten and Pac 10 exceeded expectations.

[Newton_14]

Hard to analyze it all, but I would say that the ACC may have been overrated and the Pac-10 underrated. (Although Marylands loss sort of came down to a coin flip, they still lost).

I will respectfully disagree. I think the eye test and the numbers provided show that the ACC performed pretty much as expected. Ga Tech springing the upset in game 1 offset Clemson being upset. All the other teams performed to the seeding level, winning against lower seeds and losing against higher seeds.

The Big East flopped big time, and if any conference was overrated it was them.

Mich St queaking by the Terps helped the Big Ten and hurt the ACC, and Purdue squeaking by helped as well. But Wisc getting smoked by Big Red hurt the Big Ten as well.

To date the Pac10 overachieved, the Big East underachieved and everyone else fell near expectations, with Kansas pulling the Big 12 a little below the bar.

[pfrduke]

Hard to analyze it all, but I would say that the ACC may have been overrated and the Pac-10 underrated. (Although Marylands loss sort of came down to a coin flip, they still lost).

It's not really fair to say that the Pac-10 was underrated. I watched a lot of Pac-10 basketball this year, and I can tell you that the bulk of that conference was populated with poor basketball teams. Washington and Cal, however, are both good basketball teams that a) underachieved early in the year, and b) got the stink of the rest of the Pac-10 unfairly put on them. But the fact that they played like they were capable of playing does not mean that the Pac-10, as a whole, was underrated. In fact, the conference stunk.

[pfrduke]

Mich St queaking by the Terps helped the Big Ten and hurt the ACC, and Purdue squeaking by helped as well. But Wisc getting smoked by Big Red hurt the Big Ten as well.


Yeah, the ACC was a Korey Lucious 3 away from being exactly at the level of the other major conferences, only with fewer bad losses. The last 7 seconds of the Maryland-MSU game shouldn't mean that the ACC, as a conference, was overrated. If anything, it was fairly rated. This year, it had a very strong middle (the ACC's middle outperformed the middle of everyone except the Big XII) but little strength other than Duke at the top.

[brevity]

Keeping score...

SECOND ROUND
3-1 Big Ten: Ohio State, Purdue, Michigan State
2-0 SEC: Kentucky, Tennessee
2-2 Big East: Syracuse, West Virginia
2-3 Big 12: Kansas State, Baylor
1-0 A-10: Xavier
1-0 Horizon: Butler
1-0 Ivy: Cornell
1-0 MVC: Northern Iowa
1-1 Pac-10: Washington
1-1 WCC: St. Mary's
1-3 ACC: Duke

0-1 CAA, MAC, OVC
0-2 MWC

OVERALL
7-2 Big Ten
7-5 Big 12
6-6 Big East
5-5 ACC
4-2 SEC
3-1 Pac-10
3-1 WCC
2-2 A-10
2-4 MWC
2-0 Horizon
2-0 Ivy
2-0 MVC
1-1 CAA
1-1 MAC
1-1 OVC

0-1 America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, MAAC, MEAC, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Summit, Sun Belt, SWAC
0-2 C-USA, WAC

[uh_no]

basically what it comes down to was the 5 'power' conferences were a shot away from all being tied at 2 sweet sixteen bids a piece

[rotogod00]

Hard to analyze it all, but I would say that the ACC may have been overrated and the Pac-10 underrated. (Although Marylands loss sort of came down to a coin flip, they still lost).

can't say i agree with this. think the conference performed as expected, at a mediocre level. just a down year, generally, for the conference

[CDu]

can't say i agree with this. think the conference performed as expected, at a mediocre level. just a down year, generally, for the conference

Agreed. We had only one team that was expected to make it to the Sweet-16. Maryland had a good chance (strong odds of winning their opener and then a coin flip game in round 2), but they weren't the odds-on favorite to get through. And the rest of the teams were basically coin flip games in the opening round with substantial odds against making it to the third round. So the conference has (to this point) played true to expectation.

Nobody thought the upper-middle of the ACC was great. They knew that Duke was really good, Maryland was pretty good, and then there was a lot of mediocrity without a lot of bad.

[JohnGalt]

Maryland was pretty good, and then there was a lot of mediocrity without a lot of bad.

sans the Heels...

I couldn't resist. I apologize.

[CDu]

sans the Heels...

I couldn't resist. I apologize.

Even the Heels are bad compared to the bad of most conferences.

[JohnGalt]

Even the Heels are bad compared to the bad of most conferences.

Pardon my digression, but I must propose a question...

Should the Heels win the NIT, will they hang the banner from hallowed halls of the Dean Edwards Smith Center?

[ice-9]

Pardon my digression, but I must propose a question...

Should the Heels win the NIT, will they hang the banner from hallowed halls of the Dean Edwards Smith Center?


If some random foundation decided to retroactively and arbitrarily award a banner to UNC, would they hang the banner? No, surely the answer is no?

[CDu]

Pardon my digression, but I must propose a question...

Should the Heels win the NIT, will they hang the banner from hallowed halls of the Dean Edwards Smith Center?

I'm certain of it, just as I'm certain we'd hang an NIT Champions banner in a similar situation. Don't they already have an NIT banner of some sort hanging from the olden days?

[JohnGalt]

I'm certain of it, just as I'm certain we'd hang an NIT Champions banner in a similar situation. Don't they already have an NIT banner of some sort hanging from the olden days?

I'm certain they would as well. I suppose it was a failed attempt at light mockery. :rolleyes:

[dukebluelemur]

Down goes Another highly ranked Big East team in Syracuse.... are we going to have to hear, yet again, how great they are next year as they beat up the lemmings at the bottom of their league? Only WV left...

[brevity]

Keeping score...

THIRD ROUND
2-0 Big 12: Kansas State, Baylor
2-0 SEC: Kentucky, Tennessee
1-0 ACC: Duke
1-0 Horizon: Butler
1-1 Big East: West Virginia
1-2 Big Ten: Michigan State

0-1 A-10, Ivy, MVC, Pac-10, WCC

OVERALL
9-5 Big 12
8-4 Big Ten
7-7 Big East
6-2 SEC
6-5 ACC
3-0 Horizon
3-2 Pac-10
3-2 WCC
2-1 Ivy
2-1 MVC
2-3 A-10
2-4 MWC
1-1 CAA
1-1 MAC
1-1 OVC

0-1 America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, MAAC, MEAC, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Summit, Sun Belt, SWAC
0-2 C-USA, WAC

[That_Dude]

SEC! SEC! SEC!

:D (sry couldn't resist, lol)

[Saratoga2]

What a tournament! Here we sit with a deserving Butler (Horizon League) and WVa (Big East Champions) already in the final four. This afternoons games pitting Tennessee (SEC) against Michigan St(Big Ten) and Baylor (Big 12) versus Duke (ACC Champions) will fill the final 4 slate. All of these teams have been well coached and I don't expect any games from here out to be blowouts. Looking forward to this afternoon.

[Olympic Fan]

No conference is going to have two Final Four teams, which is interesting.

Note: Duke's win Friday night guarantees that the ACC will have at least a .500 record -- since the field was opened up to more than two teams per conference in 1980, the ACC has had a losing record just once -- in 1987.

There have been a couple of .500 seasons.

[brevity]

Keeping score...

FOURTH ROUND
1-0 ACC: Duke
1-0 Horizon: Butler
1-0 Big East: West Virginia
1-0 Big Ten: Michigan State

0-2 Big 12: Kansas State, Baylor
0-2 SEC: Kentucky, Tennessee

OVERALL
9-4 Big Ten
9-7 Big 12
8-7 Big East
7-5 ACC
6-4 SEC
4-0 Horizon
3-2 Pac-10
3-2 WCC
2-1 Ivy
2-1 MVC
2-3 A-10
2-4 MWC
1-1 CAA
1-1 MAC
1-1 OVC

0-1 America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, MAAC, MEAC, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Summit, Sun Belt, SWAC
0-2 C-USA, WAC

[brevity]

The final score. ACC is tied at the top. Maybe the Horizon can be a 2-bid league next year.

FINAL FOUR
2-0 ACC: Duke
1-1 Horizon: Butler

0-1 Big East: West Virginia
0-1 Big Ten: Michigan State

OVERALL
9-5 ACC
9-5 Big Ten
9-7 Big 12
8-8 Big East
6-4 SEC
5-1 Horizon
3-2 Pac-10
3-2 WCC
2-1 Ivy
2-1 MVC
2-3 A-10
2-4 MWC
1-1 CAA
1-1 MAC
1-1 OVC

0-1 America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, MAAC, MEAC, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Summit, Sun Belt, SWAC
0-2 C-USA, WAC[/QUOTE]