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View Full Version : So who got all the calls in the ACC this year?



Duke79UNLV77
03-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Despite, well, sucking, UNC led the conference in foul and free throw shooting differential. What the what?!

http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/acc/team_stats?season=2009-2010

I recall that Al Featherton did a terrific article a few years ago tracking foul differential as predicted to wins and losses. UNC outperformed the statistical predictor there, too.

El_Diablo
03-17-2010, 10:15 PM
(link doesn't work for me)

alteran
03-18-2010, 01:13 AM
(link doesn't work for me)

Interesting-- it worked for me.

If you get it, scroll down to the bottom table, Fouls and Ejections.

Gotta say, doesn't surprise me a bit. Nor am I holding my breath waiting for ESPN to change their who-gets-all-the-calls focus.

kong123
03-18-2010, 07:12 AM
I would suggest that UNC's big men were so soft and looked to avoid contact, especially on defense. That could be the reason they didn't commit as many fouls. On the other hand, the offense runs through those same guys, which would explain why we have as many fouls against.

But in reality, there cannot be a reason other than favoritism, right? UNC still got their butts handed to them almost every night, so I guess getting all the calls worked?

oldnavy
03-18-2010, 07:52 AM
I have never really bought into the Duke gets all the calls or UNC gets all the calls conspiracy theories. However with Hansblah, I do firmly believe that he got the benefit of the doubt for multiple violations over his four years, from non-walks, to touch fouls, to flops. I just loved it when UNC fans would say he never gets the calls and you would show them that he set the record for FTA's, yet the comeback would be, he should have gotten more!!

In general I think refs have a tremendously difficult job, and that at times they all screw up, but I seriously do not think that they get together and decide who to give the advantage too in calls as a whole.

GODUKEGO
03-18-2010, 08:19 AM
Well I guess apathy relates to a low foul number!! Great stats and below are some of our's versus the NCAA.
We are the 133rd best field goal shooting team in the country at 44.2%. During the ACC tournament on a neutral court, we shot 40.1%. Our three point field goal percentage is 38.5% ranking us tied for 24th with Syracuse. Our free throw percentage of 75.9% ranks us 9th. Rebounding, we are ranked 22nd with 39.3 per game (thanks ZOUB). Ranked 133 in shooting but ranked #3 in the polls, gets you wondering. Why is this, great coaching, tremendous defense, the high percentage from three, rebounding, making our free throws and the best home court advantage in sports (thanks Crazies). If this team in the next six games gets hot from the field, this could be really really fun.
__________________

sagegrouse
03-18-2010, 09:45 AM
Gotta say, doesn't surprise me a bit. Nor am I holding my breath waiting for ESPN to change their who-gets-all-the-calls focus.

Actually, the problem was at CBS, and he has retired. Isn't the "Duke-gets-all-the-calls" mantra strictly a Terps issue, based on Billy Packer's comments during theTerps' meltdown in the NCAA tournament semis in 2001?

I have found the most obnoxious comments from ESPN reporters to be less puerile than Billy's rants E.g.: Gottlieb on "alarmingly unathletic" and Len Elmore on just about anything.

sagegrouse

El_Diablo
03-18-2010, 10:34 AM
(link doesn't work for me)

Okay, the link said "bad gateway" or something before, but it's working now.

Maybe UNC didn't get as many fouls called because they weren't in many close games in which they had to foul to get back in it at the end. A 20+ point deficit won't be overcome by fouling in the last couple minutes. And why foul UNC if you can just wait for Ginyard to brick an open 3 or Drew to throw it out of bounds? :)

kong123
03-18-2010, 01:15 PM
And why foul UNC if you can just wait for Ginyard to brick an open 3 or Drew to throw it out of bounds? :)

Finally, a rational and unbiased comment. :D

alteran
03-18-2010, 03:40 PM
Actually, the problem was at CBS, and he has retired. Isn't the "Duke-gets-all-the-calls" mantra strictly a Terps issue, based on Billy Packer's comments during theTerps' meltdown in the NCAA tournament semis in 2001?

I have found the most obnoxious comments from ESPN reporters to be less puerile than Billy's rants E.g.: Gottlieb on "alarmingly unathletic" and Len Elmore on just about anything.

sagegrouse

Actually, I think Billy gets a bit of a bum rap on this one. I know, but hear me out.

The conspiracy theory about Duke officiating bias went mainstream in the ACC (and maybe even nationally) (http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/18/sports/errors-cast-a-cloud-over-acc-referees.html?pagewanted=1) in 1997 after the game where Virginia was lined up to beat Duke, but then Wojo went coast-to-coast essentially uncontested because of an officiating snafu and won the game. This was the first of at least two games over the years where officials were censured for making calls beneficial to Duke. I think it's hard to negate that as having an influence on officiating.

I agree with you that it took a huge leap nationally four years later during the Final Four, and we all can thank Billy. But I think he was reacting to a meme that was already firmly planted-- and if you listen to the actual broadcast, you might find Billy's comments are not as bad as you remember. Opinions differ.

The reason I blame ESPN is they simply had so much more opportunity to harp on the issue, and they ran with it. It used to be almost de rigueur for our friends in Bristol to have a short segment showing a few blown-but-routine calls benefiting Duke (while ignoring blown-but-routine calls hurting Duke), something they didn't really seem to do for anyone else except for truly egregious situations.

Over the years they've proven suspiciously quick during games with the replay of calls favoring Duke, and they just don't have a mindset that goes the other way. And they always hammered the foul differential aspect as the proof in the pudding.

I'll grant, I sound paranoid (and in many ways, I undoubtedly am), but when I step back and try to look at things as objectively as I can, I just do not see ESPN going both ways on this.

In my opinion, the nonsense peaked a while back. It really does seem these days that aside from Elmore and a still-annoying tendency by the booth to cue up officiating mistakes benefiting Duke suspiciously quickly, ESPN has mostly moved on.

The meme ain't what it used to be. But it used to be a whole lot more prevalent-- and the most harmful cheerleader was the Entertainment and Sports Network.

alteran
03-18-2010, 03:49 PM
Finally, a rational and unbiased comment. :D

But also one that should narrow the foul differential-- if you don't foul UNC because their players suck, you should have less fouls. ACC teams seem to have more. Odd, that. ;)

The only reason I take potshots based on this is because many in the national media, most prominently ESPN, hammered this stupid statistic for years against Duke, ignoring any kind of rational counter. (Good teams gain a couple fouls at the end as teams try to foul their way back into the game.)

Nobody seemed to buy that argument when Duke made makes it. But somehow, those little arguments seem to work for others (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/sports/ncaabasketball/18fouls.html).

hc5duke
03-18-2010, 03:59 PM
There were 0 technical/ejections this year?

El_Diablo
03-18-2010, 04:30 PM
But also one that should narrow the foul differential-- if you don't foul UNC because their players suck, you should have less fouls. ACC teams seem to have more. Odd, that. ;)

Whoops--my bad.

-bdbd
03-18-2010, 07:46 PM
Actually, I think Billy gets a bit of a bum rap on this one. I know, but hear me out.

The conspiracy theory about Duke officiating bias went mainstream in the ACC (and maybe even nationally) (http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/18/sports/errors-cast-a-cloud-over-acc-referees.html?pagewanted=1) in 1997 after the game where Virginia was lined up to beat Duke, but then Wojo went coast-to-coast essentially uncontested because of an officiating snafu and won the game. This was the first of at least two games over the years where officials were censured for making calls beneficial to Duke. I think it's hard to negate that as having an influence on officiating.

I agree with you that it took a huge leap nationally four years later during the Final Four, and we all can thank Billy. But I think he was reacting to a meme that was already firmly planted-- and if you listen to the actual broadcast, you might find Billy's comments are not as bad as you remember. Opinions differ.

The reason I blame ESPN is they simply had so much more opportunity to harp on the issue, and they ran with it. It used to be almost de rigueur for our friends in Bristol to have a short segment showing a few blown-but-routine calls benefiting Duke (while ignoring blown-but-routine calls hurting Duke), something they didn't really seem to do for anyone else except for truly egregious situations.

Over the years they've proven suspiciously quick during games with the replay of calls favoring Duke, and they just don't have a mindset that goes the other way. And they always hammered the foul differential aspect as the proof in the pudding.

I'll grant, I sound paranoid (and in many ways, I undoubtedly am), but when I step back and try to look at things as objectively as I can, I just do not see ESPN going both ways on this.

In my opinion, the nonsense peaked a while back. It really does seem these days that aside from Elmore and a still-annoying tendency by the booth to cue up officiating mistakes benefiting Duke suspiciously quickly, ESPN has mostly moved on.

The meme ain't what it used to be. But it used to be a whole lot more prevalent-- and the most harmful cheerleader was the Entertainment and Sports Network.

Hey Sagegrouse, well stated. This has long been a favorite topic of mine - just ask any of my friends or relatives who've had to listen to me ranting. Living in DC and around the Washington Post (and DC TV stations with several MD-grad sportscasters) hasn't helped.

While I agree that the theme of Duke-gets-all-the-calls originated, with any serious depth, somewhere around the mid-to-late-90's. I always felt that it games so-called "legitimacy" from Gary Williams' constant reptition of that as a theme. Can anybody forget his shout at the refs during the 2001 national semifinal, where Duke came back from about 23 down to beat MD, "How bad do you want these guys to win??!" (Billy Packer repeated the theme, but I remember thinking at the time that he was only parroting Williams.) One of their stars fouled out down the stretch on an offensive foul. (Of course my MD pals never have an answer for my q re, "So, how'd you give up the OTHER 21 points of that lead?" I also rewatched the game and counted at least three other close earlier no-calls against the same player...) But this was not a new William's rant/whine/theme that started at the '01 FF, but one that just gained more prominence there.

But the worst of the "Duke-gets-all-the-calls" media choir has to be Stew Scott - "Tarheel grad" - of ESPN. He seemed to mention something along that theme virtually every time there was a Duke story for years, but the worst came around 2005 after a Duke-at-FSU game. Obviously they had the feature preloaded - "Does Duke get all the calls?". In that game Duke fouled out EVERY ONE OF THEIR STARTERS and literally had apx 15 more fouls called on them than FSU, as FSU eeked out a close win against JJ and crew. But ole Stew was there after the game on SC using the "Does Duke Get All The Calls" story as his lead-in. They focused on a single non-call of Sheldon blocking a shot (that Stew tried to imply could have been a goal-tending call - very debatable at best) but ran a whole segment on the topic anyway. Even the understated coach K the next day made fun of it.

Of course Stew went on to greater glory during his absurdly one-sided "hang-the-spoiled-white-rich-boys-from-Duke" reporting of the LAX scandal later on. But I digress....

I'm not that idealistic, but am still puzzled why Kerlina, year in and year out, leads the ACC in foul-call differentials (this year is no exception), but doesn't ever seem to get the "gets-all-the-calls" moniker hung on them in the media... Any thoughts as to why?

:eek: