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View Full Version : Duke is #2 in student athlete graduation rates!!



GODUKEGO
03-16-2010, 10:47 AM
The new graduation rates have been published and for overall student athletes Notre Dame was #1 and Duke was #2 with a 97% rate. In last years results the Terps graduated 10% of their men's basketball players. In the current year results, they are not listed. Interesting!!!

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2008_Mens_Basketball_Tournament_PR.pdf

Duke79UNLV77
03-16-2010, 11:07 AM
I'm not satisfied with a 67% rate for our basketball players. This is an academic progress rate, so we shouldn't be automatically penalized for early departures, right?

Which players have not made the cut?

I remember when K would not hang the Final 4 banner because Phil Henderson was his first player not to graduate on time. That's the type of success ratio I'm sure we're shooting for.

dball
03-16-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm not satisfied with a 67% rate for our basketball players. This is an academic progress rate, so we shouldn't be automatically penalized for early departures, right?

Which players have not made the cut?

I remember when K would not hang the Final 4 banner because Phil Henderson was his first player not to graduate on time. That's the type of success ratio I'm sure we're shooting for.

Transfers affect these figures, don't they?

diveonthefloor
03-16-2010, 11:40 AM
It sounds like the fine print says they do not penalize for transfers or folks who come back to get degree within 6 years of starting at the school.
That being said, are these statistics just for 2008 class? If so, who was in that class?

30scheyer
03-16-2010, 12:46 PM
97% for all athletes...swimmers give such a huge boost to graduation and gpa statistics for colleges...cmon Duke and start giving them money

Channing
03-16-2010, 12:54 PM
A fact of life with Duke basketball is that players are going to leave early to go to the NBA. Can anyone fault Luol Deng for not coming back to finish his degree? What about Boozer (I am not sure if he finished or not - if he hasnt, what incentive is there for him to finish his degree?)?

I think coach K's rule is that he wont hang a banner for a year if a senior on the team does not graduate. That is why the 2000 ACC banner didnt hang for a while, because Chris Carawell had not finished his degree (iirc).

theAlaskanBear
03-16-2010, 12:58 PM
It sounds like the fine print says they do not penalize for transfers or folks who come back to get degree within 6 years of starting at the school.
That being said, are these statistics just for 2008 class? If so, who was in that class?

Actually, the fine print says schools ARE penalized for transfers, but that in the future, they shouldn't be.

Class of 2008 = Freshman in 2004-2005? Because we only had two freshman that year. Can anyone tell us how these statistics are determined?

JaMarcus Russell
03-16-2010, 01:28 PM
If you guys look at the end of the article, it says that the GSR is measuring 6-year graduation rates from 1997-98 to 2000-01. So this is including the years of Elton Brand, Will Avery, Corey Maggette, etc. Odds are this is one of the lowest totals you will ever see from Duke.

In the next year's study, which meassures 1998-99 to 2001-02, which is Maggette to Duhon, Duke has a 100% graduation rate of white players, 86% of black players, and 89% rate overall. Unfortunately, it was emailed to me as an attachment, so I don't have a link but I can forward it to anyone who would like to see it.

The problem with these studies is that they put the stuff about the dates being measured at the very end of the article, but then they title it Graduation Rate of 2008 teams in the tournament. Every school that made the 2008 tourney is being judged on 8-year old data. Also, the original article was posted in 2008 so it isn't exactly new.

theAlaskanBear
03-16-2010, 01:43 PM
If you guys look at the end of the article, it says that the GSR is measuring 6-year graduation rates from 1997-98 to 2000-01. So this is including the years of Elton Brand, Will Avery, Corey Maggette, etc. Odds are this is one of the lowest totals you will ever see from Duke.

In the next year's study, which meassures 1998-99 to 2001-02, which is Maggette to Duhon, Duke has a 100% graduation rate of white players, 86% of black players, and 89% rate overall. Unfortunately, it was emailed to me as an attachment, so I don't have a link but I can forward it to anyone who would like to see it.

The problem with these studies is that they put the stuff about the dates being measured at the very end of the article, but then they title it Graduation Rate of 2008 teams in the tournament. Every school that made the 2008 tourney is being judged on 8-year old data. Also, the original article was posted in 2008 so it isn't exactly new.

Thanks for clearing that up!!! Wow, it is soooo much easier to understand now.

JaMarcus Russell
03-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Which players have not made the cut?

Here is my best guess, based on the 1997-98 to 2000-01 timeline

African-American Players Who Graduated: Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer, Casey Sanders, Chris Duhon, Reggie Love, Andre Buckner.

African-American Players Who Did Not Graduate: Elton Brand, Will Avery, Corey Maggette, Andre Sweet (penalized because he left in poor academic standing).

That leads to 7/11, which is 63 percent. Matches up with the study.

The White Players are listed as 67 percent, which is confusing for me. As far as I know, Nick Horvath, Andy Borman, Andy Means, and Mike Dunleavy Jr. all graduated. Even if Burgess left in poor academic standing (I have no clue, either way), that should be 80% unless I am overlooking someone. Or if they don't count walk-ons, then it could just Horvath, Dunleavy, and Burgess.

JaMarcus Russell
03-16-2010, 01:50 PM
Nevermind, guys. I found the graduation rates for 2009 Tournament teams, using data from 1998-99 to 2001-02. This for all players from Corey Maggette to Daniel Ewing. http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2009_Mens_Bball_PR.pdf

noyac
03-16-2010, 02:04 PM
Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought the NCAA implemented a rule that would take scholarships from teams that don't graduate a certain amount (%) of student/athletes.

It may have been an idea not a rule that was implemented but I thought that it was a rule.

SharkD
03-16-2010, 02:14 PM
I remember when K would not hang the Final 4 banner because Phil Henderson was his first player not to graduate on time. That's the type of success ratio I'm sure we're shooting for.

The raising of the 1990 Final Four banner was delayed until Alaa Abdelnaby received his degree. The 1992 banner would have been delayed, had Laettner not taken classes in the summer session, to graduate on time in 1992.


Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought the NCAA implemented a rule that would take scholarships from teams that don't graduate a certain amount (%) of student/athletes.

It may have been an idea not a rule that was implemented but I thought that it was a rule.

Here's the relevant info:


The NCAA created the Academic Progress Rates (APR) in 2004 as part of an academic reform package designed to more accurately measure student‐athletes’ academic success as well as improve graduation rates at member institutions by providing sanctions in the form of lost scholarships when teams fail to meet the NCAA standard for academic performance. Teams that score below a 925, which is equivalent to an NCAA GSR rate of approximately 60 percent, can lose up to 10 percent of their scholarships. Teams can also be subject to historical penalties for poor academic performance over time. Starting this year, teams that receive three straight years of historical penalties (below 900 APR or approximately a 45 percent GSR) face the potential of restrictions on postseason competition for the team, in addition to scholarship and practice restrictions.

---

The link in the first post is for the 2008 GSR report.

Here is the 2010 GSR report, encompassing the 2002-2003 freshman class, with a four class average (freshman classes of, 1999‐2000, 2000‐01, 2001‐02, and 2002‐03):

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2010_Mens_Bball_PR.pdf


The APR data in this study does not include data from the 2008‐09 academic performances of the teams, but instead uses the four‐year data from the 2004‐05, 2005‐06, 2006‐07, and 2007‐08 academic years. This is the second year without the squad‐size adjustment for most teams that was in place until teams accumulated four years of APR data.

For the time period in question, Duke had a 97% overall graduation rate amongst student-athletes, 92% amongst basketball players, 89% amongst african-american basketball players and 100% amongst white basketball players. (Duke's APR was 989)

For those counting, Maryland had graduated 76% overall, 8% of overall basketball, 0% of african-american basketball and 33% for white basketball players, of those who enrolled during the 2002-2003 academic year. Yes, Maryland went down, from their 2009 GSR rate of 10% for overall basketball players. (UMD's APR was 912 -- which means they're in for NCAA penalties.)

devildeac
03-16-2010, 02:28 PM
I'm just glad we were not #1 (seed) in graduation rate 'cuz then there would be a conspiracy theory about that, too.:rolleyes:

Seriously, this graduation rate/ranking is great news.

JaMarcus Russell
03-16-2010, 02:32 PM
Shark, thanks for the most recent link. I am assuming that walk-ons are not counted in the GSR formula. Looks like Duke was 8/9 with African-American players in that period, with Andre Sweet being the only guy not graduating or leaving in good standing. But how did we get 100% with white players? I didn't think that Shavlik ever came back for his degree?

GODUKEGO
03-16-2010, 02:36 PM
Can you imagine Gary Williams out on the recruiting trail, talking to the parents of a black high school prospect. I can picture a dialog like this. "Well Gary I see no black players have graduated from your University in this study". Gary: "Well Mr. & Mrs. Smith, your son can be the ONE!!!".

DukieInKansas
03-16-2010, 02:37 PM
For those counting, Maryland had graduated 76% overall, 8% of overall basketball, 0% of african-american basketball and 33% for white basketball players, of those who enrolled during the 2002-2003 academic year. Yes, Maryland went down, from their 2009 GSR rate of 10% for overall basketball players. (UMD's APR was 912 -- which means they're in for NCAA penalties.)

For Maryland, this is way more embarrassing than the behavior of the fans in Comcast. If my scanning of the table was correct, they had the lowest graduation rate.

Loud cheers for Wake Forest, Utah State, and any others with the 100% graduation rate.

noyac
03-16-2010, 02:56 PM
Looks like Georgia Tech, Maryland, Kansas State, and Ohio State are all under the 925 cut-off. Does this mean they will lose a scholarship next year for sure or is there some sort of probationary period to increase that number. I have downloaded the NCAA Men's Bball rulebook but mistakenly I thought it would have not just rules of the game but all rules that Men's Bball must follow.

CA Cameron Crazie
03-17-2010, 05:51 PM
I have to say that this is one of the reasons I am Duke fan. The kids the come are great, intelligent, well-spoken and respectful.

I don't mean to bring UNC into the conversation and bash them, but has anyone noticed the recognition the Carolina museum has of Dean Smith's graduation rates? Right next to it is a picture of Roy Williams and the only thing they could say was the high percentage of players (I can't remember but I think they were referring to future draft picks) that finished the spring semester before the draft. I guess they aim high over there ;)

allenmurray
03-18-2010, 10:39 AM
In a main front page article DBR says:


Secretary of education Arne Duncan is pushing a proposal to bar schools which graduate less than 40% of their players from the NCAA tournament.

However, while Duncan is free to advocate, the NCAA is a private organization and as such should be free to regulate itself as it sees fit and does not need his help nor his advice.

Mr. Duncan’s primary responsibility is K-12 public schools. He should have plenty there to keep him busy without wasting time worrying about the NCAA tournament.

The authors seem quick to forget that enormous amounts of federal money go to colleges and universities - both public and private. Any university leader knows that there are strings attached to federal money. Don't take the money if you don't want to play by the rules. And the idea that somehow the US Department of Education does not have an interest in post-secondary education is just silly beyond belief. And as regards graduation rates, just how well has the NCAA regulated itself? Pretty much not at all.

This sounds like the knd of statement that would come from a web site owned by and affiliated with a sports blog, not one affiliated with a major university with a proud academic tradition. Oh, I forgot for a minute . . . it is now a web site owned by and affiliated with a sports blog, and that really shows through in the above article.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-18-2010, 10:59 AM
It's easy for fans to be carried away with the excitement of games being played and forget the primary purpose of the institutions the teams represent.

As for the appropriateness, or lack there of, for a federal government agency to attempt to set a higher standard for institutions of higher learning, who better to raise concerns about an activity which so many citizens across the country embrace?

One continuing disappointment is the low priority given education and lifelong learning.

I'll step down from the soapbox now!

JG Nothing
03-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Duncan's comments on graduation rates are well within the Secretary of Education's job description of bringing "national attention to education issues." Certainly, the way colleges and universities have failed their student athletes is a major issue and problem. DBR's comment sounds like partisan rhetoric to me.

CBDUKE
03-18-2010, 04:00 PM
Are they also going to ban university football teams from bowl games??

SharkD
03-18-2010, 04:44 PM
Bill Friday chimes in:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7258785/


"What this really dramatizes is the fact that there are institutions today enrolling student athletes who have a 10th-grade reading skill and it's just wrong," Friday said.

"When we take these young people in, we ought to guarantee them a fighting chance to get a college degree rather than exploit them."

...

Duke's first-round opponent, Arkansas-Pine Bluff, graduated just 29 percent of players, according to the study.

"We're enrolling young men and women at that academic preparation level they don't have a chance to make it in college," Friday said.

mgtr
03-18-2010, 07:08 PM
Bill Friday chimes in:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7258785/

Ahh, but you don't understand. They are all going to make millions in the NBA!:D

JonnyWonder
03-18-2010, 08:07 PM
I absolutely agree with the OP of this thread, allenmurray (although I doubt this is due to DBRs change of ownership status). The Duke players I'm the most proud of by far are the Shane Battiers and Jason Williams, who feel no need to hide their intelligence, made a commitment to education, and received their degrees. I always cheer hardest for the guys who chose a university at least in part for education, and not just as a place to waste a year or so before jumping to the NBA (*cough* Cousins and Wall *cough*).

DBR has the right to put whatever they want on the front page, but thanks allenmurray for calling it what it is - a nearsighted commentary that misses both the point of the Dept. of Education and the point of collegiate athletics.

buddy
03-18-2010, 09:51 PM
I'm glad Arne Duncan is concerned with the graduation rates of college athletes. I am too. However, what about the graduation rates of high school students generally? How about the literacy rate of high school students generally. If I remember, Duncan was in charge of schools in Chicago. What's the graduation rate there--about 20%? I would value his intrusion into college athletics more if he wasn't trying to destroy opportunity for poor black kids in D.C.

JG Nothing
03-18-2010, 10:25 PM
I'm glad Arne Duncan is concerned with the graduation rates of college athletes. I am too. However, what about the graduation rates of high school students generally? How about the literacy rate of high school students generally. If I remember, Duncan was in charge of schools in Chicago. What's the graduation rate there--about 20%? I would value his intrusion into college athletics more if he wasn't trying to destroy opportunity for poor black kids in D.C.

The public school graduation rate in Chicago was 52.2% in 2006.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm
Rest assured Duncan is not "trying to destroy opportunity for poor black kids in D.C." Over the top assertions like that have destroyed civil political discourse in our country.

davekay1971
03-18-2010, 10:36 PM
Along the lines of unintended consequences, there are potential problems with the well-meant idea that Sec'y Duncan is proposing.

Universities (some, anyway) may react to Duncan's minimum graduation rate rule by two less-than-ideal methods. (1) obviously, they may simply streamline graduation for athletes, allowing the required percentage to graduate without actually teaching them anything. (2) they may simply avoid offering scholarships to athletes who are seen as bigger academic "risks" (much the same way surgeons may shy away from a higher risk surgery to avoid having an unsightly complication rate percentage on internet scorecards). Certainly Duncan is not simply trying to pretty up numbers, but setting a simple "you must graduate x percentage" requirement may both fail to actually improve education of athletes AND decrease opportunity for athletes who are more likely to academically struggle.

Richard Berg
03-18-2010, 11:45 PM
Thank you, AllenMurray. I agree completely.


Universities (some, anyway) may react to Duncan's minimum graduation rate rule by two less-than-ideal methods. (1) obviously, they may simply streamline graduation for athletes, allowing the required percentage to graduate without actually teaching them anything. (2) they may simply avoid offering scholarships to athletes who are seen as bigger academic "risks" (much the same way surgeons may shy away from a higher risk surgery to avoid having an unsightly complication rate percentage on internet scorecards). Certainly Duncan is not simply trying to pretty up numbers, but setting a simple "you must graduate x percentage" requirement may both fail to actually improve education of athletes AND decrease opportunity for athletes who are more likely to academically struggle.
These are valid concerns. In my mind, they are exactly the sorts of things the NCAA should be directing its compliance officers toward. Enforce a minimum GPA. Go after the universities that offer "basket-weaving" classes to illiterate athletes. Hit them where it hurts: revoke their share of TV licensing, if that's what it takes.

In such a tougher environment, I admit some schools might pass on the Sean Dockerys of the prep world. Luckily there are hundreds of colleges out there in fierce competition with one another; if a kid has D-1 level skills and a decent heart, he'll get in somewhere. Meanwhile, I'd hope that with sufficient enforcement, no coach would dare recruit a team full of OJ Mayos. Yes, that means some kids will go without scholarships, but I'm ok with that; I trust the leftover money could be used to educate someone more worthy, even if they can't jump quite as high.

But no, instead the NCAA penalizes kids who dare to hone their best skills in an "unauthorized" summer game -- a time when every other student in the country is doing the same in their own fields of expertise, often getting lauded or even *gasp* paid.

JG Nothing
03-19-2010, 12:24 AM
These are valid concerns. In my mind, they are exactly the sorts of things the NCAA should be directing its compliance officers toward. Enforce a minimum GPA. Go after the universities that offer "basket-weaving" classes to illiterate athletes. Hit them where it hurts: revoke their share of TV licensing, if that's what it takes.


The NCAA does nothing without the explicit or implicit approval of its member institutions. The problem is not the NCAA. It is the university and college presidents who set the expectations.

Richard Berg
03-19-2010, 01:04 AM
The NCAA does nothing without the explicit or implicit approval of its member institutions. The problem is not the NCAA. It is the university and college presidents who set the expectations.
Which is exactly why a little saber-rattling from the Feds can actually be good policy, regardless whether it leads to formal legislation.

Many trade groups in the U.S. are allowed to self-regulate. For example, there is no law or executive order against 16-year-olds getting into R-rated movies, but it's still policed quite well because the MPAA would rather remain the master of its domain than face the ire of Tipper Gore. The restrictions that retail stores place on "Parent's Advisory Lyrics" and AO-rated videogames have similar origins: public outcry -> political grandstanding -> private sector appeasement. Another example more closely related to the situation faced by university presidents might be the (private, voluntary) ABA's role in law school accreditation.

Suffice to say it's in the NCAA's best self-interest to toe the line, lest they become the next scapegoat in an unpopular Washington.

JG Nothing
03-19-2010, 01:18 AM
Which is exactly why a little saber-rattling from the Feds can actually be good policy, regardless whether it leads to formal legislation.

Many trade groups in the U.S. are allowed to self-regulate. For example, there is no law or executive order against 16-year-olds getting into R-rated movies, but it's still policed quite well because the MPAA would rather remain the master of its domain than face the ire of Tipper Gore. A more closely related example might be the (private, voluntary) ABA's role in law school accreditation.

Suffice to say it's in the NCAA's best self-interest to toe the line, lest they become the next political scapegoat.

I agree. The member institutions do not currently have the will to clean up their own sports programs.

GODUKEGO
03-19-2010, 07:59 AM
The article by the Secretary of Education was mentioned to Calipari yesterday on Mike and Mike's ESPN show. He stated "I am all for this, we are going to graduate all three of our seniors this year". I did a little research and found their three seniors are the eleventh, twelve and thirteen players on the roster. Sure these guys are going to graduate because they are their for the EDUCATION. I would have truly enjoyed if one of them had referenced the attached article or asked him when was the last time a starter on Kentucky graduated or the other two schools that when on probation just before you left.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/03/16/ncaa_fouls_on_grad_rate_commitment/