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View Full Version : Is Evan Turner the runaway NPOY candidate?



Jderf
03-13-2010, 07:20 PM
Before this week I considered him slightly ahead of the pack. But in light of his late game heroics the past two games in the Big Ten Tournament (draining a 37-foot buzzer-beater and then 12 points in double-OT), I'm starting to get the feeling that he has built a sizeable gap. I'm thinking that no one in the country is more important to any top-10 team. Thoughts?

CDu
03-13-2010, 07:29 PM
He was already way ahead of the pack prior to this week. It was a done deal. He's carried that team for the last month or so, and is putting up silly numbers.

This week was just the icing on the cake.

InSpades
03-13-2010, 07:48 PM
I found it funny when Dicky V said today that Wall was his NPOY. Really? I'm not sure how you could look at their #s and conclude that Wall is having a better season. They are basically the same... except Turner gets 2.5 more points per game, 5 more rebounds and shoots a higher percentage. Admittedly I haven't seen him play that much (most of it this weekend) but his numbers alone are ridiculous.

I did find it kind of funny that he had a triple double today... 10 turnovers, ouch. He still won the game for Ohio State though so I guess you can't really fault him for it.

ncexnyc
03-13-2010, 08:12 PM
I found it funny when Dicky V said today that Wall was his NPOY. Really? I'm not sure how you could look at their #s and conclude that Wall is having a better season. They are basically the same... except Turner gets 2.5 more points per game, 5 more rebounds and shoots a higher percentage. Admittedly I haven't seen him play that much (most of it this weekend) but his numbers alone are ridiculous.
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Why is what Dicky V said so funny? Wall is putting up his numbers and he's only a Freshman. There are two other starters on that team who are also Freshman, so it's a very young team and yet for most of the season they've been a top 5 club.

Considering the discussion that's taken place on this board about the ACC POY, I'm not sure pointing to numbers is a good idea. A number of board members dismissed the numerical advantage General Grevious enjoyed over Jon, albeit a slight one, to state the Jon should have won the award. They also dismissed the fact that for the most part Grevious did it alone, while Jon has it easier playing with Kyle and Nolan.

Would the fact the Wall decided to go to UK clouding your judgement?

BD80
03-13-2010, 08:13 PM
Is Evan Turner the runaway NPOY candidate?

If he plays teams coached by John Beilein from here on in, he is a shoo in.

JohnGalt
03-13-2010, 08:14 PM
Interestingly, I think Turner could be awarded the NPOY [I]and[I] MVP award (should it exist) this year, although I think the difference between the two is often disregarded...

JohnGalt
03-13-2010, 08:17 PM
Considering the discussion that's taken place on this board about the ACC POY, I'm not sure pointing to numbers is a good idea. A number of board members dismissed the numerical advantage General Grevious enjoyed over Jon, albeit a slight one, to state the Jon should have won the award.

Jon enjoyed a MUCH better assist to turnover ratio which should be strongly considered when both players are playing the Point. He also has the advantage in a lot of statistically smaller categories, but categories nonetheless...free throw percentage, etc. I agree General Grevious' numbers were higher in the main ones, but there is a legitimate argument for Jon.

weezie
03-13-2010, 08:20 PM
Kyle is about to make a serious run for the honor.

ChicagoCrazy84
03-13-2010, 08:24 PM
Why is what Dicky V said so funny? Wall is putting up his numbers and he's only a Freshman. There are two other starters on that team who are also Freshman, so it's a very young team and yet for most of the season they've been a top 5 club.

Considering the discussion that's taken place on this board about the ACC POY, I'm not sure pointing to numbers is a good idea. A number of board members dismissed the numerical advantage General Grevious enjoyed over Jon, albeit a slight one, to state the Jon should have won the award. They also dismissed the fact that for the most part Grevious did it alone, while Jon has it easier playing with Kyle and Nolan.

Would the fact the Wall decided to go to UK clouding your judgement?


Whoa there. Look, props to John Wall and his season, but you can not honestly side with Dickie V on this. Evan Turner does it all for Ohio St and you saw who they were for the 6 (?) games he was out with his back injury and who they are when he is in. Big difference. The guy is a triple double threat every time he walks out onto the floor and plays defense too. He blocks shots, steals the ball, always guards the opposing team's best player and has a better FG%. He turns the ball over a bit much (had 10 today!) but what he provides for his team is astounding. Ohio St is not even a top 25 team with him out. Kentucky is still probably top 15 without John Wall IMO. No question that Turner is the NPOY and you can not question that unless you are a Kentucky fan yourself.

ChicagoCrazy84
03-13-2010, 08:26 PM
Kyle is about to make a serious run for the honor.


He's playing great, but he's probably a bit late to get into the discussion.

ncexnyc
03-13-2010, 08:30 PM
Jon enjoyed a MUCH better assist to turnover ratio which should be strongly considered when both players are playing the Point. He also has the advantage in a lot of statistically smaller categories, but categories nonetheless...free throw percentage, etc. I agree General Grevious' numbers were higher in the main ones, but there is a legitimate argument for Jon.

I'm not denying that Jon could have been the ACC POY. It's very subjective how each voter looks at the various players and what they've accomplished during a season. You're putting a premium on ATR, maybe someone else doesn't. I'm sure some voters gave the General the nod based on what he accomplished playing for an inferior or what was viewed as an inferior team.

My point is that I don't believe we should be so quick to dismiss someone else's view on the NPOY as it is purely subjective.

InSpades
03-13-2010, 08:33 PM
Why is what Dicky V said so funny? Wall is putting up his numbers and he's only a Freshman. There are two other starters on that team who are also Freshman, so it's a very young team and yet for most of the season they've been a top 5 club.

Considering the discussion that's taken place on this board about the ACC POY, I'm not sure pointing to numbers is a good idea. A number of board members dismissed the numerical advantage General Grevious enjoyed over Jon, albeit a slight one, to state the Jon should have won the award. They also dismissed the fact that for the most part Grevious did it alone, while Jon has it easier playing with Kyle and Nolan.

Would the fact the Wall decided to go to UK clouding your judgement?

It's funny because I don't think it's really all that close (the best case you can make for Wall over Evans is that Evans missed time). The fact that John Wall is a freshman is entirely irrelevant. It's NPOY, not most future potential. What Kentucky has done is amazing but they have a *ton* of talent. Demarcus Cousins is maybe the most talented big man in the country. Patrick Patterson is an all-conference player. Ohio State is clearly less talented overall but yet Ohio St. is a top 10 team.

The Vasquez vs. Scheyer debate was a lot closer. If you look at things like offensive efficiency then Scheyer is significantly ahead of Vasquez (for the year). Vasquez had a slight advantage if you just looked at more basic numbers (points, assists, etc.). In the end Vasquez won the award easily because of his better play in down the stretch and in conference play.

I think a lot of people look at John Wall and see how ridiculously talented he is (Dick Vitale included). The numbers don't lie though. Turner puts up 20/10/6 per game. No one in the country is anywhere close to that.

ChicagoCrazy84
03-13-2010, 08:40 PM
It's funny because I don't think it's really all that close (the best case you can make for Wall over Evans is that Evans missed time). The fact that John Wall is a freshman is entirely irrelevant. It's NPOY, not most future potential. What Kentucky has done is amazing but they have a *ton* of talent. Demarcus Cousins is maybe the most talented big man in the country. Patrick Patterson is an all-conference player. Ohio State is clearly less talented overall but yet Ohio St. is a top 10 team.

The Vasquez vs. Scheyer debate was a lot closer. If you look at things like offensive efficiency then Scheyer is significantly ahead of Vasquez (for the year). Vasquez had a slight advantage if you just looked at more basic numbers (points, assists, etc.). In the end Vasquez won the award easily because of his better play in down the stretch and in conference play.

I think a lot of people look at John Wall and see how ridiculously talented he is (Dick Vitale included). The numbers don't lie though. Turner puts up 20/10/6 per game. No one in the country is anywhere close to that.


I was thinking the same thing and I think a lot of people mistakenly get wrapped up in that. Wall should win freshman of the year hands down, but like you said, this contest is not based on potential and maybe what you could've done had you been 2 years older. This is about now and what you did on the court for your team and Turner has him on that.

ncexnyc
03-13-2010, 08:44 PM
It's funny because I don't think it's really all that close (the best case you can make for Wall over Evans is that Evans missed time). The fact that John Wall is a freshman is entirely irrelevant. It's NPOY, not most future potential. What Kentucky has done is amazing but they have a *ton* of talent. Demarcus Cousins is maybe the most talented big man in the country. Patrick Patterson is an all-conference player. Ohio State is clearly less talented overall but yet Ohio St. is a top 10 team.


Why is the fact that Wall is a freshman irrelevant, yet who he has for teamates isn't?

This is basically the problem with this issue. It's very subjective and everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't relevant and also what each voter places a premium on.

Welcome2DaSlopes
03-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Turner already ran away with the NPOY, Espn is already calling him the npoy and everyone seems to have that feeling. After the game winning shot, it's a wrap.

CDu
03-13-2010, 09:12 PM
Why is the fact that Wall is a freshman irrelevant, yet who he has for teamates isn't?

This is basically the problem with this issue. It's very subjective and everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't relevant and also what each voter places a premium on.[/QUOTE]


Because age doesn't matter in rating a player's performance relative to other players. The quality of the players around him does matter, as it affects the level of play required/capable by that player.

This is basically the problem with this issue. It's very subjective and everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't relevant and also what each voter places a premium on.

Yes, the award is subjective. But I'm quite sure that nobody votes for a player because he's a freshman. They are going to compare players as players, and they aren't going to penalize other players simply for having been in college longer.

Is what Wall doing as a freshman impressive? Sure. And that's why he'll run away with the FoY award. But NPoY is the best player irrespective of class. And when you talk about NBA potential, Wall will be ahead of the rest (and will be the #1 pick).

BD80
03-13-2010, 09:32 PM
... when you talk about NBA potential, Wall will be ahead of the rest (and will be the #1 pick).

Unless the Blazers get the #1 pick. They would take Cousins, who would fall off the stage on the way up to shake Sterns' hand and break more bones in his legs than were known to exist. (see: Bowie, Sam and Oden, Greg)

InSpades
03-14-2010, 12:19 AM
Why is the fact that Wall is a freshman irrelevant, yet who he has for teamates isn't?

This is basically the problem with this issue. It's very subjective and everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't relevant and also what each voter places a premium on.

His teammates aren't really relevant. I just brought them up to point out that Kentucky is the #2 team in the country due to a lot of different reasons. A big one is John Wall, but it's not like he's doing it by himself. If you don't see why him being a freshman is irrelevant then I can't really help you.

The reason I (and apparently many others) think Turner is running away with the award is that he seems to do everything John Wall does, and then a bit more. You can argue Vasquez vs. Scheyer because they do different things better. It's a lot tougher to argue Wall over Turner because it's tough to come up with things that Wall does better than Turner. If you have a list of them then I'd be happy to reconsider.

Jderf
03-14-2010, 12:24 AM
You could even make the case that Cousins, who is averaging a double-double and just 1.5 ppg less than Wall, is more important to the team than Wall. (I'm not saying I would, but the argument is there.) If he is not certainly the greatest player on his team, it's hard to make the case that he is the greatest in the country. Turner does more with less.

brevity
03-14-2010, 12:53 AM
Most people don't think about it this way, but a one-and-done freshman player (as John Wall appears to be) is experiencing both his first AND LAST season. For the purposes of evaluating a NPOY award, he's essentially a senior. Underclassmen are often dismissed for these awards because of the perception that they'll have other chances; that doesn't apply here.

That said, I'm still siding with Evan Turner. It's a testament to John Wall that I don't think of the NPOY race as a runaway.

Indoor66
03-14-2010, 09:20 AM
Most people don't think about it this way, but a one-and-done freshman player (as John Wall appears to be) is experiencing both his first AND LAST season. For the purposes of evaluating a NPOY award, he's essentially a senior. Underclassmen are often dismissed for these awards because of the perception that they'll have other chances; that doesn't apply here.

Most people don't think of it that way because that way has no bearing on the reality of the award. Whether it is a first and only season or it is a senior and it is his last season, the award is for player of the year, not career, short career or long career. It is not to consider whether the player will have other chances to win. The above thinking is, IMO, rather specious.

Buckeye Devil
03-14-2010, 09:32 AM
If Evan Turner is not player of the year they should get rid of the award. But stranger things have happened. Even one Big 10 coach did not vote for him as the league's best player, presumably Tom Crean. Beside's the numbers, OSU would be a marginal tournament team at best without him. I admit my bias being from Ohio, but having watched him in person and on TV, there is no doubt. As to NBA potential, people are selling Turner a little short. He will be a great 2 in the league who could play a little point or 3 if needed. The turnover nemesis is a concern, but OSU relies on him to do way too much. This could be a problem in the tournament, plus he plays 40 minutes a game.

ElSid
03-22-2010, 04:02 PM
I wish we could find out player of the year after all the games are played and won or lost. The award is, um, awarded during the final four, before the championship game...the most important of the year. It should be factored in to who wins it...same way the Scheyer/Vasquez match up at Maryland mattered, I think, to the voters.

Also, I don't think freshman get discounted in the player of the year race. 'Melo, Durant. I think Beaseley was in the mix. All rightfully so.

Turner's team isn't good without him. We've all witnessed that. They are good when he plays. A lot of deserving kids out there but Evan Turner does the most with the least, which is the simplest way to measure individual performance.

Chitowndevil
03-22-2010, 04:37 PM
Player A: 16.8ppg, 4.1rpg, 6.5apg, 1.62a:t, 1.7spg, 50.5% 2fg, 31.3% 3fg, 62.4% ft
Player B: 20.0ppg, 9.2rgp, 6.0apg, 1.38a:t, 1.8spg, 56.2% 2fg, 37.0% 3fg, 74.1% ft

Player A uses 27.4% of his team's possessions while he is on the floor, while Player B is at 34.1%.

Who's who will be obvious to most, but I think it's important to put the stats up side by side.

For the record, though John Wall had an outstanding season, I do not think PoY voting should be close. Evan Turner (B) has better overall stats, and also led his team to a regular season (tie) and tournament title in a tougher conference. John Wall also plays with two other 2010 NBA lottery picks and a likely 2011 NBA first rounder.

superdave
03-22-2010, 04:41 PM
Voting is probably very soon for these, right? Dont they usually announce Final Four weekend?

Turner is more likable than Wall so I think that's worth an extra 10 votes right there.