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Jumbo
03-13-2010, 03:46 PM
On to the ACC Tourney Championship Game! Go Duke!

BigZ
03-13-2010, 03:48 PM
I was called in to work for an hour so I missed the last three minutes of the first half . What happened, when I left Duke has a seven point lead and then I see they were down by 3 at half. How in the world did Duke allow that to happen?

YourLandlord
03-13-2010, 03:48 PM
On to the ACC Tourney Championship Game! Go Duke!

Great start to the second half. This team has an extra gear that it needs to find on a more regular basis. But it's nice to have to begin with.

On to the Championship Game! I want to see them cut some nets down to realize how awesome it would be to do it again.

buddy
03-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Showed heart to shrug off the first half officiating. Kyle again was the man. And the Plumlee's provided some valuable minutes, points, rebounds, and blocks. But Jon looks exhausted.

ice-9
03-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Kyle Singler phew!

DukeCO2009
03-13-2010, 03:49 PM
I'll repost this from the in-game thread since I posted it right before it was closed. RE: another poster's comment that Duke isn't feared.

People don't fear us because we don't blow teams away like we're capable of doing. Less fear means teams play harder against us, which leads to closer games, which leads to even less fear. It's circular. We need to stop letting the air out of the ball.

DukeGirl4ever
03-13-2010, 03:49 PM
I would LOVE a rematch with NC State.

The Plumlees gave us some great minutes!

Indoor66
03-13-2010, 03:49 PM
Showed heart to shrug off the first half officiating. Kyle again was the man. And the Plumlee's provided some valuable minutes, points, rebounds, and blocks. But Jon looks exhausted.

I wonder, is Jon is sick, or something?

slower
03-13-2010, 03:51 PM
I would LOVE a rematch with NC State.

perhaps more importantly, I would love to avoid another game against Ga. Tech.

CameronDuke
03-13-2010, 03:51 PM
How money is Kyle Singler playing right now? WOW.

Will someone tell Miami to play like the worst team in the conference in the regular season?

On to yet another ACC Championship game!

LET'S GO DUKE.

Son of Mojo
03-13-2010, 03:51 PM
CANNOT continue to build large leads and let the opposition come back due to sitting on the ball. Steve Winwood said it best years ago--when you see a chance you take it. When a scoring opportunity presents itself and there's more than 6 minutes in the game, even if we're up by more than 15 points you go for the score. I don't mean attempting to run a score up. I mean preserve a lead by not shooting ourself in the collective foot. I hope we play better tomorrow so we've something more positive to go on for the NCAA's--an impressive performance and another ACC title.

KandG
03-13-2010, 03:52 PM
Two beautiful stretches of basketball: one that got us the 30-18 lead, the other that built the 58-42 lead after being down at the half. Very nice play from the Plumlees, their best in a while. Kyle, as always, is a stud.

Otherwise, pretty hideous. Three shot clock violations, mixups on defense that allowed Miami to come back, no touches for Singler as the lead was being relinquished, just a lot of stagnant ball movement and other ugliness. But credit to Miami for continually putting on the pressure.

DukeGirl4ever
03-13-2010, 03:53 PM
perhaps more importantly, I would love to avoid another game against Ga. Tech.

I'm with you on that one!
I want to show that that loss to NC State was a fluke! But, I want no part of the sting!

And, yes, Jon looks wiped out.

Lulu
03-13-2010, 03:54 PM
I feel like I should have something constructive to say, but all I really want to do is harp about stall ball almost giving away another game. I really hate it when I hear the argument "look at our results" because, I'm sorry, but you cannot go back in time and replay the same game without stall ball and see how it would have ended. No one can know what would have happened, but what I see is that we lose our momentum at a point when we dominating the game and they were falling apart. It's hard not to think we were more likely to run up the score even further and remove any doubt of the outcome. (I know the intent of reducing the number of opportunities for the other team to quickly catch up.) We had the momentum. They didn't. They were on their 3rd game in 3 days and starting to fall off when we gave them a chance to calm down. With a little luck, they absolutely could have beaten us and I just feel that the game should have never been in that place.

And geez was it early still when we pulled it out for this game. We really, really had emotions on our side at that point.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 03:55 PM
Man do I want N.C. State in the finals. That game in Raleigh was the worst of the season. No better way to wrap up another ACC championship than with a win over that team, in front of a building full of people cheering for them.

mike88
03-13-2010, 03:55 PM
I'll repost this from the in-game thread since I posted it right before it was closed. RE: another poster's comment that Duke isn't feared.

People don't fear us because we don't blow teams away like we're capable of doing. Less fear means teams play harder against us, which leads to closer games, which leads to even less fear. It's circular. We need to stop letting the air out of the ball.

Sorry, this is not 1999 or 2001. We have a very narrow margin for winning most games. It has been that way all year once you remove the large benefit we get from playing in Cameron. Like today, we have to defend well every play, and minimize turnovers, then hope that we shoot well enough to win. I don't see that changing- this team is not built to get turnovers or easy baskets and we don't get to the line much either. Today was a good win - Miami is good and getting better (they will be tough next year!).

And, yes, I will defend running the slow-down game- we needed to reduce the number of possessions at the end, and we did that. Of course, we need to execute better, but we are going to be in the same place again (if not tomorrow, then in the round of 32 or 16).

In any case, on to the finals. We will need everyone to dig deep to win and cut down the nets. Hopefully, we can get good minutes from the bench - we looked tired in the second half today.

jipops
03-13-2010, 03:57 PM
You couldn't ask for a better offensive performance in the 2nd half... until the 6 minute mark.

But when we absolutely needed a stop we got one and Zoubek's ft's were huge. Nice contributions from the Pllumlee's especially Mason's 6 boards and 2 blocks. Gotta really love that!.

Kyle is playing himself into the draft with his string of stellar performances. This is of course both good and not so great.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 03:57 PM
I feel like I should have something constructive to say, but all I really want to do is harp about stall ball almost giving away another game. I really hate it when I hear the argument "look at our results" because, I'm sorry, but you cannot go back in time and replay the same game without stall ball and see how it would have ended. No one can know what would have happened, but what I see is that we lose our momentum at a point when we dominating the game and they were falling apart. It's hard not to think we were more likely to run up the score even further and remove any doubt of the outcome. (I know the intent of reducing the number of opportunities for the other team to quickly catch up.) We had the momentum. They didn't. They were on their 3rd game in 3 days and starting to fall off when we gave them a chance to calm down. With a little luck, they absolutely could have beaten us and I just feel that the game should have never been in that place.

And geez was it early still when we pulled it out for this game. We really, really had emotions on our side at that point.

We were up by about 7 with something 7 minutes to play (i'm sure someone will do the research). We survived, barely. Stall ball is disgusting.

Merlindevildog91
03-13-2010, 03:58 PM
I was called in to work for an hour so I missed the last three minutes of the first half . What happened, when I left Duke has a seven point lead and then I see they were down by 3 at half. How in the world did Duke allow that to happen?

You didn't miss anything. The officials basically put on Sebastian's headpiece and hideous green uniforms for a few minutes. K got a technical after Nolan got called for travelling when he was bumped off his dribble by one of the Miami players.

I watched the first half with my uncle, an indifferent sports fan, who said to me during that stretch, "Do the officials know they can call fouls on both teams?"

jipops
03-13-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm with you on that one!
I want to show that that loss to NC State was a fluke! But, I want no part of the sting!

And, yes, Jon looks wiped out.

I don't think it was really that much of a fluke. Sure we were coming off a very physical game with Wake just two days before. But State plays a spread out offense which exploits our weaknesses.

DukieInBrasil
03-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Thank you Mr Singler!!! Not exactly the textbook way to close out a game but we held on none the less. We got good stuff from Knolon, as well as solid contributions from everybody except Dre and Ryan. I like how Mason's stat line has at least one of everything. Actually both MPs have played at least moderately effective ball in both tournament games, let's hope they keep it up. Both LT and Z were effective, love the FTs from Z! Now let's win the ACC Finals!!!

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Sorry, this is not 1999 or 2001. We have a very narrow margin for winning most games. It has been that way all year once you remove the large benefit we get from playing in Cameron. Like today, we have to defend well every play, and minimize turnovers, then hope that we shoot well enough to win. I don't see that changing- this team is not built to get turnovers or easy baskets and we don't get to the line much either. Today was a good win - Miami is good and getting better (they will be tough next year!).

And, yes, I will defend running the slow-down game- we needed to reduce the number of possessions at the end, and we did that. Of course, we need to execute better, but we are going to be in the same place again (if not tomorrow, then in the round of 32 or 16).

In any case, on to the finals. We will need everyone to dig deep to win and cut down the nets. Hopefully, we can get good minutes from the bench - we looked tired in the second half today.

Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 03:59 PM
We almost coulda lost that one for a couplea reasons:
1) Allowing Miami to go 8-15 from three.
2) Too many turnovers, esp. down the stretch. (I kinda like having a team where 10 total TOs is abnormally many).

Chalk the second one up to Miami's very good defense, esp. forcing those three shot clock violations late. I'm still a believer in the stall game... and today just goes to show that even with those three bad turnovers, slowing the game down, limiting Miami's looks and slowing their rhythm can still work.

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 04:01 PM
Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

Saying stall ball doesn't work when it has worked in almost every game we've employed it in this year is silly.... AND disgusting.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:01 PM
Survive and advance. Survive and advance. Great first 15 minutes. Bad next 5 minutes. Strong second half.

Miami played hard, and they've got some talent to work with for the future. Scott and Johnson look really good, and Grant looks like he could be good with experience.

Tough game for Smith. Tough first half for Scheyer, though he fought through it. Great performance from Singler.

Also, it was an impressive effort from Mason today. He had 6 boards, 2 blocks and a steal in only 16 minutes. And he managed to make an impact without committing too many bad fouls. Hopefully he can build off of this game.

But the most important thing is to keep winning. We'll get somebody's best effort tomorrow, and we just have to meet that challenge too.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Uhm, we've NEVER executed well in stall ball, so saying we need to do so, as if it's just a case of flipping the switch is silly.

Actually, there was one year when we actually were decent at running the spread: 2004. And it STILL cost us the ACC title against Maryland.

That is just not true. We have actually done pretty well with it throughout the season. Tonight.... not so much

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:02 PM
CANNOT continue to build large leads and let the opposition come back due to sitting on the ball. Steve Winwood said it best years ago--when you see a chance you take it. When a scoring opportunity presents itself and there's more than 6 minutes in the game, even if we're up by more than 15 points you go for the score. I don't mean attempting to run a score up. I mean preserve a lead by not shooting ourself in the collective foot. I hope we play better tomorrow so we've something more positive to go on for the NCAA's--an impressive performance and another ACC title.

It makes even less sense than usual this year because we are not an up-tempo team in the first place, so the "we need to reduce the number of possessions" mantra that defenders of this "strategy" spout over and over again isn't even really applicable. How many more possessions would the opposition really get if we just ran our offense as usual?

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 04:04 PM
It makes even less sense than usual this year because we are not an up-tempo team in the first place, so the "we need to reduce the number of possessions" mantra that defenders of this "strategy" spout over and over again isn't even really applicable. How many more possessions would the opposition really get if we just ran our offense as usual?

A couplefew more than they would by us stalling.

Delaware
03-13-2010, 04:04 PM
We were up by about 7 with something 7 minutes to play (i'm sure someone will do the research). We survived, barely. Stall ball is disgusting.

It was 62-50 with about 7 minutes left when we pulled the ball back.

Lulu
03-13-2010, 04:04 PM
And, yes, I will defend running the slow-down game- we needed to reduce the number of possessions at the end, and we did that. Of course, we need to execute better, but we are going to be in the same place again (if not tomorrow, then in the round of 32 or 16).


Take away the rest of the argument, and how do you defend 3 shot clock violations because the other team only had to play 8 seconds of defense? That's how they got back into the game, because we decided we didn't need to score. Again, a few bounces the other way or missed free throws and we easily lose because we started throwing away possessions. I know it's pointless to argue about events that can never be replayed, and it's nothing more than a feeling, but it's a really dang strong one and that's coming from a person who strongly relies more on logic and rationale in my daily life, not the mention work.

Hermy-own
03-13-2010, 04:05 PM
I think Duke has two main things to work on in the ACC final.

First, we need to up our defensive intensity. What happened the great 3-pt defense that we've boasted all year? There were some nice blocks by the Plumlees, some good altered shots by Zoubs, and a few steals mostly due to Miami's ineptness. But overall, they had too many open looks and fast break points. We absolutely cannot surrender those in the NCAAT.

Second, we need a post scoring option. Yeah, we got a lot of scoring from the inside today, but it wasn't as if we dumped it down low and got points from that, except in the very first run of the game. What happened to Zoubs' great post up moves? I was expecting him to score 3-5 post up buckets every game, but it's not happening. If not him, then perhaps Miles with the post up, or Mason with some more jump-hooks in the lane. The ally-oop dunks are great, but not necessarily sustainable or reliable production.

Thanks to the NCAA vault I saw our championship team make its run for the title in 2001. According to DBR stereotypes that team was far too dependent on the 3. But that team did get excellent production out of Carlos Boozer - he would post up, get great position, and it felt like an automatic 2 points every time he caught the ball down low. Those points were especially great during opposing teams' runs, and were great for steadying Duke.

This last game was not a bad game, and I'm very impressed with the development of the Plumlees. Whether or not they score, their contribution to the game is solid, something that you couldn't say earlier in the year.

jv001
03-13-2010, 04:05 PM
I'm with you on that one!
I want to show that that loss to NC State was a fluke! But, I want no part of the sting!

And, yes, Jon looks wiped out.

Jon took the ball out of bounds one time and did not step back in bounds. He just stood there. I was yelling, get in bounds Jon. I thought he was going to get a return pass and be out of bounds. I've never seen him react like this. But to his credit, he hit a couple of big 3's in the 2nd half. Go Duke!

should_be_working
03-13-2010, 04:06 PM
Stall ball works only when you can execute, and today we didn't execute well at all. We made that game way closer than it should have been. You need a quick guard to run stall ball successfully, one who can break down a defense and not only create a shot for himself but one for his teamates. I'm sorry but Jon is just not quite that guy - especially of late as he seems either out or gas or playing with an injury.

I was literally screaming at the TV to get the ball to Nolan, I think he is the guy who needs the ball in his hands when the clock is dwindling. Stall ball didn't work today, you can't possibly argue that it did. But we won and that's all that matters, on to the championship.

Oh and of course the refs were absolutely horrible in the first half.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:06 PM
That is just not true. We have actually done pretty well with it throughout the season. Tonight.... not so much

When?

lotusland
03-13-2010, 04:07 PM
I'll repost this from the in-game thread since I posted it right before it was closed. RE: another poster's comment that Duke isn't feared.

People don't fear us because we don't blow teams away like we're capable of doing. Less fear means teams play harder against us, which leads to closer games, which leads to even less fear. It's circular. We need to stop letting the air out of the ball.

It's smart bball as evidenced by the fact that we won even though we executed it as poorly as possible offensively (3 shot clock violations!!!). There simply were not enough possessions left for Miami to catch up. We should be able to get a decent shot off in the last 10-seconds or get to the line. Play defense, don't foul, make your free throws and you win. We were not taking the air out at the end of the first half when we gave up a double digit lead. Basketball is a game of runs. why allow Miami an opportunity for another run? I actually think we have run clock well this year using our 3 scoring options up until today and we still won with Miami never having an opportuntity to tie or win. Aren't we undefeated this year in games that we ran clock at the end?

tele
03-13-2010, 04:08 PM
K got a technical after Nolan got called for travelling when he was bumped off his dribble by one of the Miami players.

Were these the same officials that called the Maryland game? That call on Nolan reminded me of Scheyer's travel in the Maryland game, and the ref was just itching to T up coach K in that game.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:08 PM
It was 62-50 with about 7 minutes left when we pulled the ball back.

Thanks for the detail. Up 12, won by 3. And only because we actually abandoned that foolishness and started looking to score again this time.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:08 PM
When?

You can pretty much go game by game in our wins. Look at most of our wins this year. You just only recognize stallball when it doesn't look terrific.

Heck, you could even say it worked today. We scored as poorly as possible and still had a 5-7 point lead with a minute to go.

rsvman
03-13-2010, 04:08 PM
I feel like I should have something constructive to say, but all I really want to do is harp about stall ball almost giving away another game. I really hate it when I hear the argument "look at our results" because, I'm sorry, but you cannot go back in time and replay the same game without stall ball and see how it would have ended. No one can know what would have happened, but what I see is that we lose our momentum at a point when we dominating the game and they were falling apart. It's hard not to think we were more likely to run up the score even further and remove any doubt of the outcome. (I know the intent of reducing the number of opportunities for the other team to quickly catch up.) We had the momentum. They didn't. They were on their 3rd game in 3 days and starting to fall off when we gave them a chance to calm down. With a little luck, they absolutely could have beaten us and I just feel that the game should have never been in that place.

And geez was it early still when we pulled it out for this game. We really, really had emotions on our side at that point.
This is just wrong.

"Stall ball" works if it done correctly. We executed it poorly today, but we still got the win. I would counterargue that nobody knows what would have happened had we continued to play full on; perhaps we would have lost. You don't know, and neither do I.

A couple of seasons ago I kept a notebook detailing every possession from every game in which we executed "stall ball." We won every one of those games. Sure, the lead sunk in some of those games, but certainly not in all; in fact, if I recall correctly, the lead shrunk in about half of them, but stayed the same or even stretched out in others.

Successful stall ball depends on two things: 1) getting a reasonable shot near the end of the clock, and 2) getting defensive stops. We were not able to do the former, but we successfully did the latter for about 2:30 of game play, which was enough to ensure the win. The final three-point shot was meaningless; we were up six points with 4 seconds to play in the game. In other words, the lead was insurmountable. This despite the poorest execution of stall ball in a long time. So, what's the problem again?

devildeac
03-13-2010, 04:10 PM
I was called in to work for an hour so I missed the last three minutes of the first half . What happened, when I left Duke has a seven point lead and then I see they were down by 3 at half. How in the world did Duke allow that to happen?

Miami had some help. Tweet!

Lulu
03-13-2010, 04:10 PM
Saying stall ball doesn't work when it has worked in almost every game we've employed it in this year is silly.... AND disgusting.

It's not disgusting. Give a team a big lead and it SHOULD be hard to lose. Not losing doesn't really prove anything. The question you'd have to ask is how many games came within reach for the other team, and then you'd have to ask the unknowable question of what would have happened otherwise. Saying it's disgusting is almost insulting and inflammatory language; but that's clearly coming from someone who thinks it's worth discussing.

tele
03-13-2010, 04:11 PM
It's smart bball Aren't we undefeated this year in games that we ran clock at the end?

I agree. Although sometimes it's not pretty. I think there are unseen benefits too, in that you can rest your players, helps in 3 games in 3 days stretches, and you avoid any foul trouble and letting the refs take the game away from you. A win is win.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:11 PM
It's smart bball as evidenced by the fact that we won even though we executed it as poorly as possible offensively (3 shot clock violations!!!). There simply were not enough possessions left for Miami to catch up. We should be able to get a decent shot off in the last 10-seconds or get to the line. Play defense, don't foul, make your free throws and you win. We were not taking the air out at the end of the first half when we gave up a double digit lead. Basketball is a game of runs. why allow Miami an opportunity for another run? I actually think we have run clock well this year using our 3 scoring options up until today and we still won with Miami never having an opportuntity to tie or win. Aren't we undefeated this year in games that we ran clock at the end?

The only reason we won this game is because we actually started looking to score again.

We should be able to get a decent shot off in the last 10 seconds or get to the line? A decent shot like the 20-foot fadeaway, left-handed hook Jon had to throw up in a vain attempt to avoid yet another shot-clock violation?

Somebody please, please get K to stop doing this. The point has been made about what this does to keep teams mentally in the game as well, and that's just as valid as other criticisms. Teams KNOW we will abandon our offense and let them back into the game. Think what that does for their morale. Whereas, if we just kept on doing what we were doing to get the lead to begin with, we'd put them away.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:13 PM
It's not disgusting. Give a team a big lead and it SHOULD be hard to lose. Not losing doesn't really prove anything. The question you'd have to ask is how many games came within reach for the other team, and then you'd have to ask the unknowable question of what would have happened otherwise. Saying it's disgusting is almost insulting and inflammatory language; but that's clearly coming from someone who thinks it's worth discussing.

Exactly, this was a 4-6 possession game when we abandoned offense. Stall ball quickly erased that lead. We won because we decided to start trying to score again. Y'know, playing basketball.

rsvman
03-13-2010, 04:14 PM
.... Not losing doesn't really prove anything. ......

Except that you won the game. Certainly it proves THAT. How is it relevant whether the other team got within striking distance? At the end of the season, they really only count wins and losses.



And, just in case you forgot: "You play to WIN the game."

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:14 PM
I agree. Although sometimes it's not pretty. I think there are unseen benefits too, in that you can rest your players, helps in 3 games in 3 days stretches, and you avoid any foul trouble and letting the refs take the game away from you. A win is win.

If you're so worried about foul trouble, rest and the refs, why not be passive the entire game, not just the last 8 minutes?

bluesin
03-13-2010, 04:15 PM
1) Confusing the slow down game for a failure to execute seems to be pretty common. I know that changing the pace of the game can make it more difficult to execute, but this team has shown that they CAN execute in the slowdown quite a few times this season, since we've implemented it many times and have had a pretty damn good margin of victory. If you think the team can execute well in the half court because you've seen them do it then I see no reason to assume they can't do the same in the slow down game because you've seen that too (unless you turn the game off after the first 10 minutes of the second half as a regular practice). I'll defend the slow-down not only based on this game, but this team and this season, and it seems like a selective memory to say it hurts us when it's helped us win pretty handily a few times this season and even in this game resulted in a victory.

2) Against a streaky Miami team that can get out and score points in a hurry it seems like people would realize how the slowdown game affects them. It forces them to execute and be defensive minded for 30+ seconds and limits their ability to turn Duke over, rush out to get points and allows Duke to be better in transition -- especially if they convert. It's not like Duke was only playing the slowdown against themselves and the clock, the strategy does do things to how the other team plays as well. Now that didn't work well in this game like it has before, but again I'd say failure to execute is more to blame than an inherently flawed strategy.

3) I can understand being upset we didn't run the slowdown well this game, I'd TOTALLY agree with that, in fact I'd even say we went to it a little early. But that doesn't make it a bad idea as a strategy for this team. I'm sure if K realized we'd play like a bunch of freshmen out there in the slowdown (forgetting to start it soon enough, tossing around stupid passes, etc.) he would have never started the game-plan. Of course he didn't know that, in fact he had plenty of proof from pervious games that this Duke team runs the slowdown as a strength instead of a weakness.

4) I want NC state in the finals as well, I was at the last State game and I'd love to prove we can play defense against them better than we did (or at all :p).

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:16 PM
Exactly, this was a 4-6 possession game when we abandoned offense. Stall ball quickly erased that lead. We won because we decided to start trying to score again. Y'know, playing basketball.

Quickly erased? That's incorrect. It was a 2-3 possession game until the final seconds. The lead didn't get down to 5 until 1:24 to play. So we were in pretty good shape at that point (given how well we shoot free throws).

Lulu
03-13-2010, 04:16 PM
It's smart bball as evidenced by the fact that we won even though we executed it as poorly as possible offensively (3 shot clock violations!!!). There simply were not enough possessions left for Miami to catch up.

And those 3 violations had nothing to do with stall ball?
This is my last post on this, because I can't keep repeating myself. Every time I see the argument that it works because we have a winning record in games where we held a large lead I just can't stop myself from responding though.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:16 PM
This is just wrong.

"Stall ball" works if it done correctly. We executed it poorly today, but we still got the win. I would counterargue that nobody knows what would have happened had we continued to play full on; perhaps we would have lost. You don't know, and neither do I.

A couple of seasons ago I kept a notebook detailing every possession from every game in which we executed "stall ball." We won every one of those games. Sure, the lead sunk in some of those games, but certainly not in all; in fact, if I recall correctly, the lead shrunk in about half of them, but stayed the same or even stretched out in others.

Successful stall ball depends on two things: 1) getting a reasonable shot near the end of the clock, and 2) getting defensive stops. We were not able to do the former, but we successfully did the latter for about 2:30 of game play, which was enough to ensure the win. The final three-point shot was meaningless; we were up six points with 4 seconds to play in the game. In other words, the lead was insurmountable. This despite the poorest execution of stall ball in a long time. So, what's the problem again?

We won because we abandoned that foolishness and started looking to score again, thank goodness. ETA: and also because we got some stops in the last few minutes.

Andre Buckner Fan
03-13-2010, 04:18 PM
Stall ball insults the other team. We act as if the game is decided.

Any decent team will take motivation from that kind of an insult, and we're very lucky that Miami missed a few of their shots down the stretch.

But that being said...

KYLE SINGLER!!!!!!!!

mike88
03-13-2010, 04:19 PM
People have strong feelings about this topic, and I am not sure that anything will change the minds of those who think slowing the game down is always a bad idea, but it really turns on what you think the alternative would have been. I saw a Miami team that was getting easier shots than we were, even before we slowed the game down. Played out over a larger number of possessions, I think they would have narrowed the lead in any case. Fortunately, they had some bad possessions and Scott committed some bad fouls; coupled with good defense/rebounding/free throw shooting on our part, we were able to keep it a two or more possession margin throughout.

jipops
03-13-2010, 04:21 PM
Thanks for the detail. Up 12, won by 3. And only because we actually abandoned that foolishness and started looking to score again this time.

No, we never abandoned the stall ball. We finally found openings to the lane and started driving late in the clock. This resulted in Nolan's big spot up. It also helped that Miami started fouling.

I understand that the stall ball tactic can be difficult to watch. But the important thing here is that we still won. Is there any other aspect of the game you can focus on?

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:21 PM
We won because we abandoned that foolishness and started looking to score again, thank goodness.

When did we "abandon that foolishness?"

From 64-50:

35-second violation
ran 29 seconds, made jumper
ran 21 seconds, missed jumper
2 seconds (Zoubek fouled on a defensive rebound)
35 seconds, violation
30 seconds, missed jumper
25 seconds, missed jumper
29 seconds, made jumper

then the fouling began.

So we went away from stalling on two possessions, and failed to score on both of them. Care to rethink your argument?

mike88
03-13-2010, 04:21 PM
Stall ball insults the other team. We act as if the game is decided.

Any decent team will take motivation from that kind of an insult, and we're very lucky that Miami missed a few of their shots down the stretch.

But that being said...

KYLE SINGLER!!!!!!!!

No! Slowing the ball down shows respect for your opponent- it says (essentially) that you need to manipulate pace in order to have the best chance of winning. It has worked throughout the season, and it worked tonight- it just makes the game harder to watch for Duke fans!

Lulu
03-13-2010, 04:22 PM
Except that you won the game. Certainly it proves THAT. How is it relevant whether the other team got within striking distance? At the end of the season, they really only count wins and losses.

And, just in case you forgot: "You play to WIN the game."

Alright, I lied. That last post wasn't my last. My argument would be the exact same as yours, apparently, because yes, "You play to WIN the game." Funny how that works.

It's relevant because of the liklihood that we will lose a critical game due to stall ball. I agree this is nothing more than a feeling from all of us on both sides; I just don't like the logic that is used to justify it at times, but I've repeated over and over already. Maybe I'd have to alter the above statement to "You play to maximize your chance of winning the game." We just completely disagree on how that's accomplished.

I DO AGREE that there can be a point where stall ball makes it impossible for the other team to win. So what we really disagree is how early we start to employ it in games that really don't seem to be decided quite yet. Up 18 with 3 minutes left, sure, no problem. I don't know where the line is but I know I really don't like where we have it.

The major point is that you cannot so completely give up the advantage you have on the other team, in the areas you are strong or are dominating at that current point in the game, and weaken yourself at such an early point that the other team has such an advantage then that they can actually come back. Considering what I think has been a bit of nerves or succumbing to pressure on Duke's part in tournaments the past few years this is not a position I like to be in.

tele
03-13-2010, 04:22 PM
If you're so worried about foul trouble, rest and the refs, why not be passive the entire game, not just the last 8 minutes?

A good question, I'd say because at the end of the game, when you have the ball and a lead, you can hold the ball and the opponent doesn't realize their goose is cooked before it is too late. Plus you can sometimes score off of it with easy baskets because you are forcing the opposing team to defend for long stretches at the end of the game. Also some other team, who shall go nameless, did try and play that way the whole game long, and now we have the shot clock.

Delaware
03-13-2010, 04:23 PM
Exactly, this was a 4-6 possession game when we abandoned offense. Stall ball quickly erased that lead. We won because we decided to start trying to score again. Y'know, playing basketball.

You keep saying this. I did not see any change. Miami simply started to have to press harder and foul BECAUSE we still had the lead and time was running out. Look at the game log and look at when we scored or turned if over after we got the ball on every possession and then explain to me how we "decided to start trying to score again"... its not correct. After the three straight shot clock violations, we ran the same set and scored after 30 seconds on a Nolan jumper.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 04:23 PM
When?

Well,

1) you could argue it worked well tonight, as it has EVERY time we have run it.

2) The better question is, when has Duke given away a lead this season in the last 4 minutes because we ran stall ball? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it has happened once.

KyDevilinIL
03-13-2010, 04:24 PM
Somebody please, please get K to stop doing this.

I'm with you. Stallball is the very definition of playing not to lose, instead of playing to win. It often "works" in spite of itself (today is an example), and it's quite simply a gamble.

The main problem is that we consistently go to it way too early. I've never seen a team other than Duke just shut down its offense as early as the under-8 timeout. It's without question the most frustrating part of K's philosophy.

Meanwhile, we just don't look very good this weekend. Other than Kyle, I think the guys must feel the pressure of being the heavy favorite. We need to crank it back up soon.

tele
03-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Say, did anyone notice Thomas and Zoubek combined for 11 points? And the MP duo did too. That is 22 points from the bigs, what a great time to put together those kind of games.

roywhite
03-13-2010, 04:25 PM
Sorry to interrupt the quibbling.

On to the finals. Some great plays by Kyle. Mason and Miles definitely contributed with some key baskets, rebounds, and blocks.

We hit our foul shots late in the game; always good to see.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:26 PM
You keep saying this. I did not see any change. Miami simply started to have to press harder and foul BECAUSE we still had the lead and time was running out. Look at the game log and look at when we scored or turned if over after we got the ball on every possession and then explain to me how we "decided to start trying to score again"... its not correct. After the three straight shot clock violations, we ran the same set and scored after 30 seconds on a Nolan jumper.

Yeah, I posted every possession of ours from the point we got the 14 point lead. We played stallball on all but two possessions, and those two possessions resulted in missed shots. We most certainly did not win because we abandoned stallball and looked to score.

I swear, I think some people only recognize stallball when we fail to score.

bluesin
03-13-2010, 04:27 PM
Say, did anyone notice Thomas and Zoubek combined for 11 points? And the MP duo did too. That is 22 points from the bigs, what a great time to put together those kind of games.

I was very pleased with that, I mentioned to my fiance during the game that I thought that was a huge development for them, of course then Miles dropped the ball (literally) but overall their play was very good on the offensive end today considering their previous production. And I thought Dawkins showed a little bit of a willingness to be involved and active in the offense when he was in today, which was also a good sign.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 04:27 PM
Stall Ball= Winning

I don't care how it works or how painful it is. I can't argue with results

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm with you. Stallball is the very definition of playing not to lose, instead of playing to win. It often "works" in spite of itself (today is an example), and it's quite simply a gamble.

By definition, it can't work in spite of itself. If your goal is to run the clock out, winning by running the clock out is working exactly as planned.

When it works best, we run 30-35 seconds and score. But if it prevents the opponent from having enough time to make up the ground, then it worked.

Today, we stalled from 64-50 with 7:30 to go. As of 55 seconds left, Miami had still not yet reached 64 points. By that point, we were at 70, despite executing offensively about as poorly as possible. That's stallball working just fine.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:30 PM
When did we "abandon that foolishness?"

From 64-50:

35-second violation
ran 29 seconds, made jumper
ran 21 seconds, missed jumper
2 seconds (Zoubek fouled on a defensive rebound)
35 seconds, violation
30 seconds, missed jumper
25 seconds, missed jumper
29 seconds, made jumper

then the fouling began.

So we went away from stalling on two possessions, and failed to score on both of them. Care to rethink your argument?

No, because the numbers in front of me say it was 29, 21, 2, 39 (not sure how that works, but anyway), then we called a timeout and we had 30 and then 9 and then the fouling began. So we did not exclusively take the air out of the ball.

Even so, I would say the biggest reason we won is because we actually got some stops. No matter what offense you play, you won't win if you can't get any stops.

jipops
03-13-2010, 04:31 PM
Sorry to interrupt the quibbling.

On to the finals. Some great plays by Kyle. Mason and Miles definitely contributed with some key baskets, rebounds, and blocks.

We hit our foul shots late in the game; always good to see.

Oh please do interrupt. I'd love to read more discussion about the Plumlee's, Kyle's dominant play, Zoubek's clutch free throw shooting, our excellent work on the boards, the fact we're playing in the ACC tournament finals, you know relevant stuff like that.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:31 PM
Stall Ball= Winning

I don't care how it works or how painful it is. I can't argue with results

So we did a lot of losing of games like this before stall ball, then?

DukeGirl4ever
03-13-2010, 04:32 PM
Stall Ball= Winning

I don't care how it works or how painful it is. I can't argue with results

When I played ball, my coach was infamous for stall ball....but only when we hit a 20 point lead. Then there was no way the other team could come back.

I'm on the fence with this discussion. Do I think stall ball works? It can IF IT IS RUN THE RIGHT WAY! We did not execute in the stall ball offense this game. Poor shots, and I think 3 times we didn't even get a shot off. But, if you get a good shot with the shot clock winding down, I can't say that is bad basketball, especially when you are on the road (i.e. the BC game).

Do I think stall ball is painful to watch? Absolutely! I love the killer instinct and to me, this is one of the reasons we are not feared by a lot of teams. Kick 'em while they're down, Duke!

InSpades
03-13-2010, 04:33 PM
Is Miami the best #12 seed around? They are very talented. This is why the ACC is the best conference in the country. They have 5 or 6 wins over teams that will very likely be in the NCAA tournament. There are NCAA tournament teams that can't say that. Good win by the boys in blue.

I agree with others that Scheyer looks off. I'm not sure if it's tired or what but the Kyle Singler from the past month who is playing like an All-American is looking for the Jon Scheyer from November/December so they can join together to lead us to a Final Four. I hope they meet up very soon!

Great to see Miles and Mason show up to play today. Some of those blocks by Mason were just fantastic. The Plumlee to Plumlee alley-oop was very nicely done. Miles is showing off a nice jump shot of late as well which will serve us well the next 2 seasons if not the next few weeks.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:33 PM
No, because the numbers in front of me say it was 29, 21, 2, 39 (not sure how that works, but anyway), then we called a timeout and we had 30 and then 9 and then the fouling began. So we did not exclusively take the air out of the ball.

Even so, I would say the biggest reason we won is because we actually got some stops. No matter what offense you play, you won't win if you can't get any stops.

29 = stallball
21 = not stallball, and it was a missed shot
2 = no possession - they fouled under their own basket
39 = 35 (that was the shotclock violation) = stallball
30 = stallball
25 = not stallball, and it was a missed shot
29 = stallball

I'm sorry you can't accept reality. Stallball worked, and we most certainly didn't win because we "abandoned it and started looking to score again." When we abandoned it, we didn't score. How is that a good thing?

mike88
03-13-2010, 04:35 PM
Alright, I lied. That last post wasn't my last. My argument would be the exact same as yours, apparently, because yes, "You play to WIN the game." Funny how that works.

It's relevant because of the liklihood that we will lose a critical game due to stall ball. I agree this is nothing more than a feeling from all of us on both sides; I just don't like the logic that is used to justify it at times, but I've repeated over and over already. Maybe I'd have to alter the above statement to "You play to maximize your chance of winning the game." We just completely disagree on how that's accomplished.

I DO AGREE that there can be a point where stall ball makes it impossible for the other team to win. So what we really disagree is how early we start to employ it in games that really don't seem to be decided quite yet. Up 18 with 3 minutes left, sure, no problem. I don't know where the line is but I know I really don't like where we have it.

Unless we win the national championship, it is likely that we will lose our last game of the season this year. It will probably be a close game. It might even be a game where we slowed down our offense to reduce the number of posessions, but that is different than losing BECAUSE of running the slow down game. I can't emphasize enough (as has Coach K) that we are a team with a very narrow margin of error to win from here on out. We don't have a dominant offense and we don't get many easy baskets. We are going to have to value very possession and we can't afford to not get shots in our offense (whether it is the slow-down game or regular motion)

lotusland
03-13-2010, 04:35 PM
And those 3 violations had nothing to do with stall ball?
This is my last post on this, because I can't keep repeating myself. Every time I see the argument that it works because we have a winning record in games where we held a large lead I just can't stop myself from responding though.

Yes I said we executed as poorly a possible and still won. We had mometum and a double digit lead in the first half and Miami made a run to take the lead at halftime. Why do you assume that they can't make the same run at the end. We can have scoring droughts running our normal offense with fouls and turnovers, etc. so why not play smart with the lead and limit ther possesions. It's like the prevent defense in football. Eveyone hates it yet every team employs it because it works. As Mick and the Boys sing TI-I-IME is on my side...".

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 04:35 PM
It's not disgusting. Give a team a big lead and it SHOULD be hard to lose. Not losing doesn't really prove anything. The question you'd have to ask is how many games came within reach for the other team, and then you'd have to ask the unknowable question of what would have happened otherwise. Saying it's disgusting is almost insulting and inflammatory language; but that's clearly coming from someone who thinks it's worth discussing.

devildownunder is the one who first used the word. The above was sarcasm.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:36 PM
By definition, it can't work in spite of itself. If your goal is to run the clock out, winning by running the clock out is working exactly as planned.

When it works best, we run 30-35 seconds and score. But if it prevents the opponent from having enough time to make up the ground, then it worked.

Today, we stalled from 64-50 with 7:30 to go. As of 55 seconds left, Miami had still not yet reached 64 points. By that point, we were at 70, despite executing offensively about as poorly as possible. That's stallball working just fine.

If by working just fine you mean voluntarily giving control of the game to the opposition when it's firmly in your own grasp, then you're right. It did work perfectly.

That is the problem with stall ball. We were in complete control of the game and instead of holding onto that control, we give it to Miami by putting ourselves in the situation of counting on them to miss shots to ensure victory.

Saratoga2
03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Singler had a great game and Zoubek, Mason and Miles contributed in a positive way. We had a big lead and then the foolish plays began. I think it started with Thomas picking up 3 quick fouls in a row and having to sit. What the heck was he thinking?

In that time, we had Scheyer making a very poor pass to Singler out of bounds and numberous stall ball cases leading to poor shots or shot clock violations. Not exactly smart end of game management. And of course Nolan had his issues at the end fouling on a made basket and giving Miami another chance to tie or win.

A win is a win, but we just looked like a freshman team at the end. Hope we learn from this one.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
Unless we win the national championship, it is likely that we will lose our last game of the season this year. It will probably be a close game. It might even be a game where we slowed down our offense to reduce the number of posessions, but that is different than losing BECAUSE of running the slow down game. I can't emphasize enough (as has Coach K) that we are a team with a very narrow margin of error to win from here on out. We don't have a dominant offense and we don't get many easy baskets. We are going to have to value very possession and we can't afford to not get shots in our offense (whether it is the slow-down game or regular motion)

Right, our offense does struggle frequently, which is why we shouldn't be adding any additional stress to it, the way stall ball does. We were in a good rhythm offensively when we went to it this time.

Anyway, we managed to hold on and win so let's beat n.c. state or Ga. Tech and, we hope, get a 1 seed. I suspect wherever we're seeded the 2nd round of the NCAAs is the only one in which stall ball may be a factor, thank goodness.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:39 PM
If by working just fine you mean voluntarily giving control of the game to the opposition when it's firmly in your own grasp, then you're right. It did work perfectly.

That is the problem with stall ball. We were in complete control of the game and instead of holding onto that control, we give it to Miami by putting ourselves in the situation of counting on them to miss shots to ensure victory.

Despite executing atrociously and despite some crazy shots from Miami, they didn't get within a possession of us until 3 seconds left. Heck, they didn't even reach our 7:30 second point total of 64 until 50 seconds left. That's the point of stallball - eliminate as much as possible any chance of the opponent scoring enough points to win.

It didn't work perfectly, but it worked just fine. Despite playing as poorly as possible offensively for 6 minutes, we didn't get seriously threatened. Miami just didn't have enough time to make up the difference without never missing. That's the point of stallball.

bluesin
03-13-2010, 04:40 PM
If by working just fine you mean voluntarily giving control of the game to the opposition when it's firmly in your own grasp, then you're right. It did work perfectly.

That is the problem with stall ball. We were in complete control of the game and instead of holding onto that control, we give it to Miami by putting ourselves in the situation of counting on them to miss shots to ensure victory.

Just a quick question. If Duke has the ball and the lead then who has control of the game at that point?

roywhite
03-13-2010, 04:40 PM
If by working just fine you mean voluntarily giving control of the game to the opposition when it's firmly in your own grasp, then you're right. It did work perfectly.

That is the problem with stall ball. We were in complete control of the game and instead of holding onto that control, we give it to Miami by putting ourselves in the situation of counting on them to miss shots to ensure victory.

Give it a rest, please.

There are things other than your opinion of stall ball to talk about.

KyDevilinIL
03-13-2010, 04:41 PM
Today, we stalled from 64-50 with 7:30 to go. As of 55 seconds left, Miami had still not yet reached 64 points. By that point, we were at 70, despite executing offensively about as poorly as possible. That's stallball working just fine.

OK, and within minutes of starting the stall, Miami had at least one possession that, with a 3-pointer, would have cut the lead to 68-64 with about four minutes to go, potentially changing the entire trajectory of the game. But Miami failed to score in that instance, so fine – I guess that means stallball works, even though the only reason Miami was in position to get that close again is because we stopped trying to do anything on the offensive end.

But this is a topic that just goes round and round, and people are free to their opinions.

I'm on the record as hating stallball with every fiber of my being. I believe it does nothing but dare the opponent to make a game-closing run, which I think is a silly approach to basketball. Others choose to trust stallball, which is OK – and yeah, this year's results make it difficult to argue against. But that doesn't mean all arguments against it are invalid.

DukeGirl4ever
03-13-2010, 04:41 PM
And of course Nolan had his issues at the end fouling on a made basket and giving Miami another chance to tie or win.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the free-throw would have been made, it only would have brought Miami to within 3, right?

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 04:42 PM
So we did a lot of losing of games like this before stall ball, then?

I can remember a time or two in which pushing late led to a loss (mostly from the mid 90's), but K has used stall ball for a long time.

I can't count the number of times I have seen a team up 8-10 with a few minutes left, only to see the lead disappear in the blink of an eye without any turnovers. Duke doesn't lose those games because of stallball.

It's a very simple theory. Limit possessions and you decrease the opposing team's chances of coming back. Hit shots at the end of the shot clock and you all but guarantee it.

And Again, how are you going to argue with facts, results? I don't understand....

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:42 PM
29 = stallball
21 = not stallball, and it was a missed shot
2 = no possession - they fouled under their own basket
39 = 35 (that was the shotclock violation) = stallball
30 = stallball
25 = not stallball, and it was a missed shot
29 = stallball

I'm sorry you can't accept reality. Stallball worked, and we most certainly didn't win because we "abandoned it and started looking to score again." When we abandoned it, we didn't score. How is that a good thing?

The reality is we had 3 shot-clock violations, so we didn't score then either. Like I said, our defense or Miami's failure to make shots -- however you care to look at -- is the reason we hung on and won, not some triumph of our offensive strategy. We were in very good rhythm offensively right before we started stalling. That's rare for this team. There was a lot of time left. It was WAY too early to suck the air out of the ball.

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:44 PM
The reality is we had 3 shot-clock violations, so we didn't score then either. Like I said, our defense or Miami's failure to make shots -- however you care to look at -- is the reason we hung on and won, not some triumph of our offensive strategy. We were in very good rhythm offensively right before we started stalling. That's rare for this team. There was a lot of time left. It was WAY too early to suck the air out of the ball.

If you want to say it's our defense, that's fine. You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But it was absolutely not because we abandoned stallball, which was your previous argument (the one I asked if you wanted to reconsider). My biggest beef was your argument based on factual inaccuracies.

Lulu
03-13-2010, 04:46 PM
Must post on something new, so I'm very glad to see the Plumlees doing better at this point (taking Zoubs for granted these days). One negative: the attempted one-handed dunks on rebounds; it's starting to seem that works less often than it doesn't. Refs don't like to blow whistles on those too often anyway, so get control first and go right back up.

So did anyone time how long it took Lance to pick up those 3 fouls? That was bit insane. Like the effort though, and with these refs who knew what might happen.
He probably thought his effort could come into question if he actually ended a game with no fouls...

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:46 PM
I can remember a time or two in which pushing late led to a loss (mostly from the mid 90's), but K has used stall ball for a long time.

I can't count the number of times I have seen a team up 8-10 with a few minutes left, only to see the lead disappear in the blink of an eye without any turnovers. Duke doesn't lose those games because of stallball.

It's a very simple theory. Limit possessions and you decrease the opposing team's chances of coming back. Hit shots at the end of the shot clock and you all but guarantee it.

And Again, how are you going to argue with facts, results? I don't understand....

Sounds good in theory but you actually have to make the shots and standing around for 25 seconds before you start your offense does nothing to help you make those shots. It also leads to turnovers from time to time way out on the perimeter because teams close in on passes they normally wouldn't contest, knowing there's no chance you'll blow by if they don't make the steal. kyle and jon had one of these today.

We blew the sweet 16 in 2002 because of stall ball and the acc in 2004 because of stall ball. In the later case we actually were pretty decent at running it and still lost.

Now I'm not saying we'd never, EVER lose a game if we didn't play it. I am saying that it turns way too many comfortable leads into 1 or 2-possession games, which can easily be lost. If you're beating a team handily, scoring well and playing good D, why do you stop that and purse a strategy nearly guaranteed to create a pressure point near the end? It makes no sense.

Dr. Tina
03-13-2010, 04:48 PM
Our stallball began with 6 minutes and change in the game. I would have preferred to see it having started around the 4 minute mark instead. I haven't had too many gripes with stallball this season because we seem to have utilized it fairly well.

However, I don't think it's a stretch to say that we executed it poorly today! Since when has our team had that many shot clock violations (and almost in a row...save a possession or two!) at the end of a game this year? I saw Jon and/or Nolan holding the ball till the 12 second mark, a lot of standing around when they finally did start to do something, and driving into areas where there was nothing there. When we were finally able to pass the ball, there was little time on the clock to get a decent shot off. Nolan also had a missed shot off of one of our stall ball possessions as well. Thankfully, we were able to pull out the win despite this ineffectiveness.

Kyle was a BEAST again today! I've been pretty impressed by his playing the past few weeks. I think he's really starting to click now, which is nice to see.

Nolan was decent. I think he needs to drive and dish more.

Jon does look a bit tired. He's been a tale of two halves the last two games. I'm not sure if he's sick or tired or a bit of a combination. I'd like to see that improve, but at least he's been able to contribute at important points in the game.

The Plumlee Brothers had a pretty good showing today. Miles had 7 points and Mason had 4 points. Mason's rebounding was pretty good. I loved his one play where he reached with the right hand for the rebound, switched to his left, and got the bucket! Mason also had a steal and an assist.

Despite our foul troubles in the first half, everyone managed to play better in the 2nd half and not foul out, especially our big guys.

Love seeing Coach K fired up on the sidelines! Even Mickie and the family were ready to jump onto the court a few times! It's great to see how much passion he has and he's been especially intense and emotional this season!

Here's hoping our offense and defense improves tomorrow even more for GT or NCS! Would LOVE to see another ACC Championship!!!

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:48 PM
Sounds good in theory but you actually have to make the shots and standing around for 25 seconds before you start your offense does nothing to help you make those shots. It also leads to turnovers from time to time way out on the perimeter because teams close in on passes they normally wouldn't contest, knowing there's no chance you'll blow by if they don't make the steal. kyle and jon had one of these today.

Actually, stallball can be done to the degree that you don't even HAVE to make the shots.

If you're up 20 with 6 minutes to go, it's unlikely that the opponent can even score 20 in that amount of time. So even if you take 35-second violations every trip down, they probably won't have enough possessions to make up the difference.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:49 PM
If you want to say it's our defense, that's fine. You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But it was absolutely not because we abandoned stallball, which was your previous argument (the one I asked if you wanted to reconsider). My biggest beef was your argument based on factual inaccuracies.

I have already amended my argument to say that defense was a factor. In fact, it was the biggest. But we did NOT play stall ball exclusively down the stretch and I believe that is also a big reason why we did not lose.

So, I was wrong to say it was only because we didn't use stall ball. I'll even say it was wrong to say we "abandoned" stall ball because it varied some. But we didn't stay with it exclusively -- and thank goodness for that!

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:50 PM
I have already amended my argument to say that defense was a factor. In fact, it was the biggest. But we did NOT play stall ball exclusively down the stretch and I believe that is also a big reason why we did not lose.

So, I was wrong to say it was only because we didn't use stall ball. I'll even say it was wrong to say we "abandoned" stall ball because it varied some. But we didn't stay with it exclusively -- and thank goodness for that!

So you're happy that we didn't stall for two possessions and failed to score any points on those two possessions? Because I think that's silly. If we'd just gone ahead and used stallball there, we'd have at least shaved 10-15 more seconds off the game and gotten the same result.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 04:51 PM
1) The ultimate goal of stall ball is to win games.
2) Duke always wins when using stall ball (at least in recent memory)
3) Stall ball accomplishes the ultimate goal and is therefore an effective strategy

...until somebody can explain to me how this is wrong, I am declaring this conversation ridiculous and moving on. .

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:52 PM
Actually, stallball can be done to the degree that you don't even HAVE to make the shots.

If you're up 20 with 6 minutes to go, it's unlikely that the opponent can even score 20 in that amount of time. So even if you take 35-second violations every trip down, they probably won't have enough possessions to make up the difference.

Well, this post gives me an opportunity to reiterate what someone else said earlier. The argument here really isn't for/against stall ball, it's about when you start it.

I think pretty much everybody is well aware that at a certain point, you just start holding the ball but many of us believe that up 14 with 7:30 to go is way too early. I would argue that up 20 with 6 to go is even a hair too early (remember being up 17 on Indiana).

If you're up 25 with 6 to go, I would say that's pretty safe.

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 04:52 PM
When?

I realize people are tiring of this argument, but I just didn't want to leave this question unanswered. Here are five examples from this season.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=335495&highlight=stall+ball#post335495
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=347631&highlight=stall+ball#post347631
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=336026&highlight=stall+ball#post336026
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=355091&highlight=stall+ball#post355091
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=360530&highlight=stall+ball#post360530

BD80
03-13-2010, 04:53 PM
When did we "abandon that foolishness?"

From 64-50:

35-second violation
ran 29 seconds, made jumper
ran 21 seconds, missed jumper
2 seconds (Zoubek fouled on a defensive rebound)
35 seconds, violation
30 seconds, missed jumper
25 seconds, missed jumper
29 seconds, made jumper

then the fouling began.

So we went away from stalling on two possessions, and failed to score on both of them. Care to rethink your argument?


No, because the numbers in front of me say it was 29, 21, 2, 39 (not sure how that works, but anyway), ...

The 39 seconds was either a kicked ball or a foul where we retained possession and the clock reset.

I challenge the definition of "stall ball." I don't think taking 10-15 seconds off the clock before initiating the offense is a bad thing when you have the lead at the end of the game. I don't like letting the clock run down to 10 before starting to attack.

We took about 15 seconds off the clock each possession at the end, but a few of those times we were able to get a good shot more quickly and those possessions looked good and less like stall ball. A few times we had difficulty getting a good shot off and thus burned the 35 seconds and looked bad. But even those possessions were successful because they burnred 35 seconds while we had the lead.

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned is the practice and confidence this gives us for the tournament for when we may need to protect a lead.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 04:54 PM
1) The ultimate goal of stall ball is to win games.
2) Duke always wins when using stall ball (at least in recent memory)
3) Stall ball accomplishes the ultimate goal and is therefore an effective strategy

...until somebody can explain to me how this is wrong, I am declaring this conversation ridiculous and moving on. .

Duke does not ALWAYS win when using stall ball! Where do you get that nonsense?

Duke has lost at least two HUGE games by playing it. 2002 sweet 16 and 2004 acc tournament.

Now you'll immediately counter that that's two games in the last 8 years but, two things. 1) that's not an inclusive list, it's just the two enormous ones that I can remember off the top and 2) where's your list of games we lost because of NOT using the stall?

CDu
03-13-2010, 04:55 PM
Duke does not ALWAYS win when using stall ball! Where do you get that nonsense?

Duke has lost at least two HUGE games by playing it. 2002 sweet 16 and 2004 acc tournament.

Now you'll immediately counter that that's two games in the last 8 years but, two things. 1) that's not an inclusive list, it's just the two enormous ones that I can remember off the top and 2) where's your list of games we lost because of NOT using the stall?

We have not lost this year because of stallball, which is I think his/her point.

As for games we lost because we didn't stall, I'll go with 2005 at UNC. And perhaps the 2004 NCAA tourney game against UConn?

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 05:00 PM
Give it a rest, please.

There are things other than your opinion of stall ball to talk about.

You know what, I just came back to this thread to say I was done talking about stall ball but I just have to respond to this. You choose not to go after all the people attacking me, rather you step in and slam me for having the nerve to defend myself.

Even though I've actually posted about more than just stall ball.

MYOB.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 05:03 PM
Duke has lost at least two HUGE games by playing it. 2002 sweet 16 and 2004 acc tournament.

2002 Sweet 16- Sorry, that is incorrect. it was a 1 pt game with ~6 minutes left.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 05:04 PM
We have not lost this year because of stallball, which is I think his/her point.

As for games we lost because we didn't stall, I'll go with 2005 at UNC. And perhaps the 2004 NCAA tourney game against UConn?

I can't remember what happened in 2005 at UNC. I remember losing a lead, that's it. As for 2004, we had no strategy of any kind in that game at the end because everyone on the team above 6'6" fouled out. We couldn't hold onto the ball, couldn't run an offense, couldn't keep them off the boards, couldn't do anything. You actually have to have a team on the floor to run stall ball or anything else. I don't think it was possible for K to do it at that point.

The game I remember us losing without stalling was '98 against Kentucky in the elite 8.

There is no perfect strategy.

devildownunder
03-13-2010, 05:05 PM
Off to check in on Gtech and state.

Peace y'all. enjoy the game tomorrow.

CDu
03-13-2010, 05:06 PM
I can't remember what happened in 2005 at UNC. I remember losing a lead, that's it. As for 2004, we had no strategy of any kind in that game at the end because everyone on the team above 6'6" fouled out. We couldn't hold onto the ball, couldn't run an offense, couldn't keep them off the boards, couldn't do anything. You actually have to have a team on the floor to run stall ball or anything else. I don't think it was possible for K to do it at that point.

The game I remember us losing without stalling was '98 against Kentucky in the elite 8.

There is no perfect strategy.

Had we been able to run stallball, I think we win both of those games. You asked for examples of games we lost because we didn't play stallball. I gave two that I can think of. How about the game at St John's several years ago that we lost on the walk-off FT, when we were up by like 17 with 3 minutes or so? Stallball would have saved us there, too.

ncexnyc
03-13-2010, 05:09 PM
A nice win against an explosive Miami team.

Props to Kyle for another huge game. He's really carried us these past two games, doing everything you could ask a player to do.

Nice to see Miles and Mason take advantage of Miami's zone defense. Some nice defense as well from both of them.

Nolan continues to make some big shots when we need one to stem an opponents run.

Jon definitely seems to be hurting. It was most evident when we had the steal and the ball was passed to Jon for what should have been an easy basket, however it looked like he was moving in slow motion and had to make an awkward body twist and then he just barely managed to get the ball over the rim.

Brian and Lance were steady as usual.

Nice to see Dre take it to the hoop and really believe he got a raw deal on the charging call. He might want to think about adding a pump fake to his game.

Again, a very nice win.

InSpades
03-13-2010, 05:09 PM
The 39 seconds was either a kicked ball or a foul where we retained possession and the clock reset.


I think the 39 second possessions just come from the fact that it takes us time to inbounds the ball and the shot clock hasn't started yet. So if it takes us 4 seconds to inbounds (meaning from the time the ball goes through the hoop) and we get a shot clock violation then it can take 39 seconds. Also the 35 second clock doesn't end the possession if the ball is in the air (like Jon's hook shot 3 pointer for example).

I think we've been pretty effective with stall ball so far this year. I remember many many times where Jon would stick a 3 when the shot clock was running down (Nolan has had quite a few shots go down as well). We obviously weren't that effective at it today, you want to waste time and get a reasonably scoring opportunity.

KandG
03-13-2010, 05:14 PM
You know what, I just came back to this thread to say I was done talking about stall ball but I just have to respond to this. You choose not to go after all the people attacking me, rather you step in and slam me for having the nerve to defend myself.

Even though I've actually posted about more than just stall ball.

MYOB.

By my rough count, you have 21 posts in this thread. 20 of them are about stall ball. (That's not to mention all the collateral damage created by numerous responses trying to bring reason to the discussion, rather than talking about the actual game). This thread may as well be renamed "The Evils of StallBall" in your honor.

At some point, enough is enough.

Thank goodness for Zoubs and the Plumlees, otherwise we could also revive the need for a "big man coach" as the other hysterical cliche to bog down a thread with.

BlueintheFace
03-13-2010, 05:17 PM
Three cheers for Kyle. He is really coming on.

Jon (circa Winter 2009) I miss you. You'll get back to yourself buddy.

bluesin
03-13-2010, 05:24 PM
I was just looking at Jon's stat-line, and while his 3 point shooting is a little off, the rest of it actually made me think my eyes had been deceiving me. I'll take it as a good sign that he actually put up pretty good numbers without looking like he was really playing very well. Maybe he's not as far off as my eyes would have lead me to believe.

FGs: 4-10 (40%) (50% on 2pt FGs)
3PtFGs: 2-6 (33%)
FTs: 6-9
OR: 0
R: 6
Assists: 4
Stls: 3
Blocks: 1
Turnovers: 2
Fouls: 2
Points: 16

watzone
03-13-2010, 05:37 PM
Kyle, K and Scheyer ... Singler and Thomas post game interviews - http://bluedevilnation.net/

Heading back out to the court for a suddenly tight NCSU-GT game.

Spret42
03-13-2010, 05:43 PM
A nice win against an explosive Miami team.


I am sorry but I really need someone to explain to me how that Miami team can be characterized as explosive. I just didn't see it.

CDu
03-13-2010, 05:47 PM
I was just looking at Jon's stat-line, and while his 3 point shooting is a little off, the rest of it actually made me think my eyes had been deceiving me. I'll take it as a good sign that he actually put up pretty good numbers without looking like he was really playing very well. Maybe he's not as far off as my eyes would have lead me to believe.

FGs: 4-10 (40%) (50% on 2pt FGs)
3PtFGs: 2-6 (33%)
FTs: 6-9
OR: 0
R: 6
Assists: 4
Stls: 3
Blocks: 1
Turnovers: 2
Fouls: 2
Points: 16

Scheyer was pretty far off yesterday. Today, he was pretty far off for the first 25 minutes. He was basically uninvolved for the first half of the game. Then, with about 15 minutes to go, he hit a 3, a breakaway layup, and a 3 and then five free throws down the stretch.

He did a good job today of not forcing things when he wasn't shooting well, and then made some big plays when the opportunity presented itself. So despite not playing well for much of the game, he didn't actively hurt the team. The end result was a pretty darn solid game from him.

Mcluhan
03-13-2010, 05:50 PM
Must post on something new, so I'm very glad to see the Plumlees doing better at this point (taking Zoubs for granted these days).

I'm very glad to see the frontcourt four notch 22 points and 18 boards. More than looking for specific things from any one of these guys-- because it's been proven impossible to guess-- I'm simply interested in seeing solid frontcourt production.

InSpades
03-13-2010, 05:53 PM
I am sorry but I really need someone to explain to me how that Miami team can be characterized as explosive. I just didn't see it.

Durand Scott seems pretty explosive to me. They also have 3 guys who can shoot the 3 (50 or more on the year). Are they a great team? Obviously not, they went 4-12 in the ACC. They are certainly dangerous though. They beat Minnesota, Wake twice, Virginia Tech twice and GA Tech.

CDu
03-13-2010, 05:56 PM
Durand Scott seems pretty explosive to me. They also have 3 guys who can shoot the 3 (50 or more on the year). Are they a great team? Obviously not, they went 4-12 in the ACC. They are certainly dangerous though. They beat Minnesota, Wake twice, Virginia Tech twice and GA Tech.

Exactly, they're athletic, they have a go-to scorer, and they have a bunch of guys who can get hot from 3. They are also young and inexperienced, and as such they've struggled. But they're definitely explosive.

Orange&BlackSheep
03-13-2010, 06:13 PM
So we did a lot of losing of games like this before stall ball, then?

I have never watched the game again, but I remember being very frustrated at the way the offense began to look as we tried to protect a lead via stall ball ...

I am not criticizing its use here since there is a margin at which reducing possessions makes it nearly impossible for the other team to catch up. Today was one of those games.

jjasper0729
03-13-2010, 06:16 PM
i thought it would have been a nonsequitor if we had started to play with a few more seconds on the shot clock and been able to drive and attack the basket... stall or not, when we attacked the basket, good things usually happened in the second half

Spret42
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Exactly, they're athletic, they have a go-to scorer, and they have a bunch of guys who can get hot from 3. They are also young and inexperienced, and as such they've struggled. But they're definitely explosive.


I guess. I just don't usually like to give a characterization like explosive to a team that is 4-12 in their own conference.

They may be explosive, but it didn't seem to be a very stable compound.

mike88
03-13-2010, 06:30 PM
They are young and athletic- they sure looked pretty strong this weekend. I think their youth and lack of big-game experience accounts for their record, but they sure looked tough this weekend, and we were not having good luck stopping Scott, especially with Nolan in foul trouble.

mapei
03-13-2010, 06:31 PM
i thought it would have been a nonsequitor if we had started to play with a few more seconds on the shot clock and been able to drive and attack the basket... stall or not, when we attacked the basket, good things usually happened in the second half

Exactly. Our problem wasn't the stall strategy but that, unlike most games this year, we executed it like dog poop. Each time we waited too long before trying something, and someone with the ball was caught in a very difficult double-team. If we run the play with 12 seconds to go instead of trying to figure out what to do with 4-5 seconds to go, some of those posessions result in scores or fouls.

I like the strategy but we looked totally incompetent at running it today.

Saratoga2
03-13-2010, 06:45 PM
I was just looking at Jon's stat-line, and while his 3 point shooting is a little off, the rest of it actually made me think my eyes had been deceiving me. I'll take it as a good sign that he actually put up pretty good numbers without looking like he was really playing very well. Maybe he's not as far off as my eyes would have lead me to believe.

FGs: 4-10 (40%) (50% on 2pt FGs)
3PtFGs: 2-6 (33%)
FTs: 6-9
OR: 0
R: 6
Assists: 4
Stls: 3
Blocks: 1
Turnovers: 2
Fouls: 2
Points: 16

I havden't seen Jon smile of show much emotion of late. While his stat line is not all that bad, he just doesn't seem to have the energy and emotion of the past. Maye he is feeling the pressure or he is still injured and we have been kept in the dark.

CDu
03-13-2010, 06:50 PM
I guess. I just don't usually like to give a characterization like explosive to a team that is 4-12 in their own conference.

They may be explosive, but it didn't seem to be a very stable compound.

Yeah, I didn't say they were a good team. You don't have to be a successful team to be explosive. You just have to have talented pieces that can allow you to take over for stretches.

They are 4-12 because they're inexperienced. There is certainly talent there. They just have to figure out how to make it work.

CDu
03-13-2010, 06:53 PM
I havden't seen Jon smile of show much emotion of late. While his stat line is not all that bad, he just doesn't seem to have the energy and emotion of the past. Maye he is feeling the pressure or he is still injured and we have been kept in the dark.

I do wonder if illness has something to do with it this week. For the first 65 minutes of this tournament, he looked really off. And really, he didn't look terribly "on" aside from about a one-minute stretch in which he hit a couple of 3s and a breakaway layup.

Hopefully, it's just that he has a cold or something. Actually, hopefully it's just a two-game slump that goes away tomorrow.

Kfanarmy
03-13-2010, 06:53 PM
We were up by about 7 with something 7 minutes to play (i'm sure someone will do the research). We survived, barely. Stall ball is disgusting.
Duke was up 13 with 7:30 left...steady drain downward from that point. I hope the purpose was to save energy for the championship game, though I'm not sure if the end-of-game anxiety created by stall ball cost more than was saved or not.

roywhite
03-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I didn't say they were a good team. You don't have to be a successful team to be explosive. You just have to have talented pieces that can allow you to take over for stretches.

They are 4-12 because they're inexperienced. There is certainly talent there. They just have to figure out how to make it work.

I haven't seen all that many Miami games, but they appear to have played better without Collins in the lineup, which is surprising. Maybe the big kid Brown doesn't need the ball as much, and the perimeter guys are more effective offensively?

At any rate, Miami was tough today. Duke was very good in a few stretches, and did enough to win.

DukeUsul
03-13-2010, 06:59 PM
Someone could correct my guess here.... did Miami's zone defense have something to do with our ability to execute our offense in the slow-down game? Zones often do well in preventing dribblers from getting into the lanes. If we're starting the O with less than 10 seconds left, a lot of time the zone will close off the lane causing the ballhandler to change course and do something different. Do that a couple of times and you force a guy to a bad spot and a bad shot.

Is that what happened late? I need to go back to the tape. Was Miami still in their zone the last couple minutes? Were they cutting off the lanes and forcing into a second and third option of direction, causing us to run out of time?

I'm wondering if that was the big reason we had trouble executing down the stretch. Maybe I'll re-watch the tape later tonight.

Kfanarmy
03-13-2010, 07:02 PM
I can remember a time or two in which pushing late led to a loss (mostly from the mid 90's), but K has used stall ball for a long time.

I can't count the number of times I have seen a team up 8-10 with a few minutes left, only to see the lead disappear in the blink of an eye without any turnovers. Duke doesn't lose those games because of stallball.

It's a very simple theory. Limit possessions and you decrease the opposing team's chances of coming back. Hit shots at the end of the shot clock and you all but guarantee it.

And Again, how are you going to argue with facts, results? I don't understand.... these aren't facts they are statements of opinion. A fact would be, based upon verifiable evidence, Duke has begun to stall x number of times with Y losses and z wins, using mulitple examples of point differential at start and results. What you've stated here are simply not facts, even if you declare them to be so.

roywhite
03-13-2010, 07:03 PM
these aren't facts they are statements of opinion. A fact would be, based upon verifiable evidence, Duke has begun to stall x number of times with Y losses and z wins, using mulitple examples of point differential at start and results. What you've stated here are simply not facts, even if you declare them to be so.

I agree with his observation. Do you have facts that show otherwise?

CDu
03-13-2010, 07:10 PM
I haven't seen all that many Miami games, but they appear to have played better without Collins in the lineup, which is surprising. Maybe the big kid Brown doesn't need the ball as much, and the perimeter guys are more effective offensively?

At any rate, Miami was tough today. Duke was very good in a few stretches, and did enough to win.

I think you mean Johnson (not Brown), but it certainly is interesting that they seem to be playing better without him. Whether or not this is a spurious correlation is something I'm not sure of. It's not like Collins dominated possessions or anything. In fact, they often failed to get him the ball despite his strength around the basket.

I think some of it is just the fact that Durant Scott has really started to figure it out. Another big part of it was that the tournament draw was very kind to them. They got to play Wake (a team in disarray whom they beat during the regular season), VT (a team they beat during the regular season), and Duke (a team they played fairly close against during the regular season).

roywhite
03-13-2010, 07:30 PM
I think you mean Johnson (not Brown), but it certainly is interesting that they seem to be playing better without him. Whether or not this is a spurious correlation is something I'm not sure of. It's not like Collins dominated possessions or anything. In fact, they often failed to get him the ball despite his strength around the basket.

I think some of it is just the fact that Durant Scott has really started to figure it out. Another big part of it was that the tournament draw was very kind to them. They got to play Wake (a team in disarray whom they beat during the regular season), VT (a team they beat during the regular season), and Duke (a team they played fairly close against during the regular season).

Sounds about right...yeah, my bad on the big guy Johnson.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22490&SPID=1835&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204907510

The boxscore shows Miami played a pretty solid game; shot well and didn't turn the ball over much. Duke had a big edge on the boards.

Miami could be a dangerous team next year.

CDu
03-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Sounds about right...yeah, my bad on the big guy Johnson.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22490&SPID=1835&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=204907510

The boxscore shows Miami played a pretty solid game; shot well and didn't turn the ball over much. Duke had a big edge on the boards.

Miami could be a dangerous team next year.

Yeah, they should be solid next year. There's talent there for sure. They just need to put it together. They lose Dews and they lose Collins, but they have a lot of freshmen and sophomores who got a lot of experience this year.

Cockabeau
03-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Cmon guys give K and Duke a break.

I have never seen a game reffed like that in the first half.

That in itself was alot to overcome it was that aweful and one sided.

Cockabeau
03-13-2010, 07:50 PM
Unbelievable really. "Stall Ball" won K three championships.

And I can't believe some of you used it as an excuse in the 2004 loss to UCONN.

What part of stallball was the Deng three point attempt at the top of the key and the Ewing baseline jumper. Both were aggressive plays early in the shot clock. The loss could be more attributable to the foul on JJ that was not called and the ineffectiveness of Sheldon Williams when Emeka got into foul trouble in the first half.

Wildling
03-13-2010, 08:32 PM
I think Kyle found his shooting stroke again :D

Although I am not very impressed with having a hard time beating a team that placed DFL in the ACC, I was impressed by the effort all game long, and also the defensive intensity.

I am also loving the minutes the bench has been getting the past two games. Anyone have some numbers on that? I am wondering if it is just me or if K is giving more minutes to the bench? Even when they screw up he's not giving them the quick hook. Or do my eye's deceive me?

Also, it was waaaaaaay to early for stall ball at the 7 minute mark. It completely ruined the flow of the offense the rest of the game, and it gave Miami plenty of chances to get back into it.

We were full throttle and having a good flowing offense, and at the 7 minute mark it completely went away.

However, it's hard to argue with the results...............

CDu
03-13-2010, 09:37 PM
Unbelievable really. "Stall Ball" won K three championships.

And I can't believe some of you used it as an excuse in the 2004 loss to UCONN.

What part of stallball was the Deng three point attempt at the top of the key and the Ewing baseline jumper. Both were aggressive plays early in the shot clock. The loss could be more attributable to the foul on JJ that was not called and the ineffectiveness of Sheldon Williams when Emeka got into foul trouble in the first half.

I don't think anybody used it as an excuse for the loss to UConn. If I recall correctly, I was the only one who mentioned UConn 2004, and I'm a proponent of stallball. I had said that if we'd used stallball in the 2004 UConn game, we would have won. So, in fact, I was saying exactly the opposite.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say that stallball has led Duke to three championships. I think stallball is a newer tradition for us.

COYS
03-13-2010, 09:56 PM
A lot has already been said about the spread. However I'd just like to point out that if we had slowed things down at the end of the first half we would have been leading at half time. Yes the officiating was terrible, however in my opinion, we failed to effectively use the clock to close out the half. We turned the ball over early in the clock on multiple occasions and basically handed the lead back to Miami. NOT using the spread cost us a 12 point lead. Failing to execute hurts whether you,re playing slowly or at a breakneck pace. . . It just happens to hurt more when playing at a fast pace because the other side gets more opportunties to cut into the lead in a shorter amountof time.

Newton_14
03-13-2010, 10:29 PM
Cmon guys give K and Duke a break.

I have never seen a game reffed like that in the first half.

That in itself was alot to overcome it was that aweful and one sided.

I was more angry at halftime of today's game than I have been over any game in a long long time. I am normally one that does not play the "blame the refs" game when things did not go well for a team...

But good grief, that first half was ridiculously one-sided. Duke never even got to the 1 and 1 yet were the aggressor who built a big lead, which according to the PlayCaller usually means you get more calls rather than the other way around.

The early foul calls on Nolan, Jon, and Miles were really bad. As an example, I will use one that was not a ticky tack but was bad for another reason. Jon's 2nd foul came when one of the Miami bigs went up for a shot against Mason on the right block. As he was going up, the whistle blew, and AFTER the whistle blew John swung pretty hard and blocked the shot as it was coming out of the Miami guy's hands. I assumed that it was going to be a body foul against Mason, but no, the ref gives it to Jon even though before the whistle blew Jon had not touched the guy. But that was just one or many bad calls in that half.

But all in all that first half, refs were horrible.


That said. Kyle Singler is the man, and Jon is the best I have ever seen at "quietly" having a good game. Good play from our bigs today and it was really needed. I thought Miles and Mason gave us a big boost on offense while also playing "solid" defense and avoiding the silly fouls. While Lance and Zoubs gave us a big boost on defense while also being solid on offense. LT did another good job helping against the press along with screening and rebounding, while Zoubs did a good job screening, rebounding and knocking down his free throws. Very nice game for those 4 guys.

Anyone else notice how "effortlessly" Mason made that fastbreak look where he fed Miles for the lob dunk? A sign of good things to come. How many other 6'10 guys in the country not named Greg Monroe could have made that play as easy as Mason made it?

Props to Miami for hanging in there with a lot of heart and good shooting. Going down 16 in the 2nd half in their 3rd game in 3 days they could have easily hung their heads and folded, but they battled hard until the very end. Good for them.

60's Devil
03-13-2010, 10:41 PM
Pleasant surprise from the Plumlees today. Also loved Lance hitting a couple of jumpers. Got me very nervous near the end with shot clock violations and repeatedly giving them wide open threes. Great free throw shooting...how bout Zoubs...saved us.

BigZ
03-13-2010, 10:46 PM
K has seemed to have gotten red of that stall ball strategy that cost us the 2004 Semi-Final game against UCONN. I hated that strategy where Duke would have a lead and then not even really attempt to score in the last few minutes.

AtlDuke72
03-13-2010, 11:17 PM
Duke does not ALWAYS win when using stall ball! Where do you get that nonsense?

Duke has lost at least two HUGE games by playing it. 2002 sweet 16 and 2004 acc tournament.

Now you'll immediately counter that that's two games in the last 8 years but, two things. 1) that's not an inclusive list, it's just the two enormous ones that I can remember off the top and 2) where's your list of games we lost because of NOT using the stall?

Good grief!!! Give it a rest. I for one believe that Coach K has figured it out and that his end of game strategy maximizes the team's chance of winning. ! We have heard your opinion ad nauseum.

fgb
03-14-2010, 12:53 AM
didn't really mind the "stall ball". one aspect of that style of play, especially in a three games in three days tournament format, it that it gives the regulars a chance to "rest" while on the floor. k has won enough of these things for me to figure he's working with a three day plan.

chi
03-14-2010, 01:03 AM
"3) Duke’s Late Game Patience:

Mike Krzyzewski likes to take the air out of the ball when his team gets a 10-12 point lead with 5-6 minutes to go. Some fans are critical of that. In fact, today it did backfire a little bit, with Duke getting three shot clock violations.
What many people fail to understand is that when Duke sits on ball with a lead, it is very difficult for opponents to catch up, because the Blue Devils shoot free throws well, handle the ball well and make good decisions. Coach K does not care about how many Duke wins by, he just wants to shorten the game and make it difficult for the opponent to catch up. It has worked well for him many years."

Bonus:

"And One:

The Blue Devils started the second half on a 26-7 run in the first eight minutes of second half. During that run Singler and Scheyer made five 3-pointers. Those guys are special."

Full article (http://www.accsports.com/articles/201003137379/kuipers-3-pointer-duke-miami.php)

Kedsy
03-14-2010, 01:07 AM
It was 62-50 with about 7 minutes left when we pulled the ball back.

And even after three consecutive shot clock violations we were still winning 76-69 with 18 seconds left. At which point we got lackadaisical on defense for a couple possessions (presumably because there was essentially no way we could lose at that point).

I don't think anybody's advocating repeating the three consecutive shot clock violations anytime soon, but the stall strategy worked just like it was supposed to today. Miami was never in any real danger of winning the game in the last few minutes. The final margin is deceptive due to a made three-pointer with 4 seconds left. Ultimately, who cares if we win by 3 or 13?

Kedsy
03-14-2010, 01:14 AM
Give a team a big lead and it SHOULD be hard to lose. Not losing doesn't really prove anything. The question you'd have to ask is how many games came within reach for the other team, and then you'd have to ask the unknowable question of what would have happened otherwise.

I disagree with this. Not losing proves everything.

I don't know what percentage of games we've lost after running the stall over the past 10 or 20 years, but my guess is it's pretty small, and as someone else pointed out I'm pretty sure we're undefeated using it this year. If the goal is to win and we always (or almost always) win using a particular strategy, what else do you want?

Kedsy
03-14-2010, 01:37 AM
Also, I'm not sure I'd say that stallball has led Duke to three championships. I think stallball is a newer tradition for us.

I seem to recall us using it in 1986, so I don't think it's so new. The rest I agree with.

Kedsy
03-14-2010, 01:49 AM
I seem to be the only person posting at this point. Sorry.

I have said in the past that when the Plumlees get fed an alley-oop dunk or two early in the game, they tend to play better for the rest of the game and I think today we saw that again. Kyle made that nice alley-oop assist to Mason about 4 minutes into the game, and then Mason fed his brother for one less than a minute later. Next thing, the two of them were blocking shots, getting back better on defense, and committing fewer fouls. I think it's a confidence thing for both of them, which hopefully will continue.

What I liked about this game is a lot of the things people insist "can't" happen if we want to win happened today and we still won. Just yesterday people were saying Jon can't have any more off-shooting games, but he did again. People have said we can't get our guards in foul trouble, but both Nolan and Jon had 2 fairly early in the first half. I felt both Nolan and Jon had off games (i.e., two of our Big Three were off). We didn't shoot the three particularly well (less than 32%). We were facing a very quick guard. Yet despite all these red flags we still won, and I feel pretty good about that.

Let's keep up the defensive intensity tomorrow and win this thing.

devilwood
03-14-2010, 03:03 AM
We won. And it was a good win against a highly motivated team, with some talent, looking to beat us.

"Stall ball" has been around for years. After the 1986 final, questions were asked about whether it cost us the game.

K knows what he is doing. He is the best. Everything is fair fodder for post game analysis but he is great.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:29 AM
I was called in to work for an hour so I missed the last three minutes of the first half . What happened, when I left Duke has a seven point lead and then I see they were down by 3 at half. How in the world did Duke allow that to happen?

Allow? Allow? Did you ever think that Miami possibly outplayed them. Allow? In the end Miami "allowed" Duke to win. How does that sound? Allow.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:33 AM
We won. And it was a good win against a highly motivated team, with some talent, looking to beat us.

"Stall ball" has been around for years. After the 1986 final, questions were asked about whether it cost us the game.

K knows what he is doing. He is the best. Everything is fair fodder for post game analysis but he is great.

Now you just made a fair statement. Miami was highly motivated. Georgia Tech may not have the legs to hang with Duke tomorrow having had to play one more game than Duke. I'm thinking it will be a low scoring grind.

mike88
03-14-2010, 06:35 AM
I seem to be the only person posting at this point. Sorry.

I have said in the past that when the Plumlees get fed an alley-oop dunk or two early in the game, they tend to play better for the rest of the game and I think today we saw that again. Kyle made that nice alley-oop assist to Mason about 4 minutes into the game, and then Mason fed his brother for one less than a minute later. Next thing, the two of them were blocking shots, getting back better on defense, and committing fewer fouls. I think it's a confidence thing for both of them, which hopefully will continue.

What I liked about this game is a lot of the things people insist "can't" happen if we want to win happened today and we still won. Just yesterday people were saying Jon can't have any more off-shooting games, but he did again. People have said we can't get our guards in foul trouble, but both Nolan and Jon had 2 fairly early in the first half. I felt both Nolan and Jon had off games (i.e., two of our Big Three were off). We didn't shoot the three particularly well (less than 32%). We were facing a very quick guard. Yet despite all these red flags we still won, and I feel pretty good about that.

Let's keep up the defensive intensity tomorrow and win this thing.

We actually shot pretty well overall (our eFG was 54.6%) and had a pretty good offensive game all in all (our offensive efficiency was 115.9, the best away from Cameron since Iowa State). We rebounded very well and did OK in terms of turnovers but not great (18% of possessions). Our defensive efficiency was not great either (111.4, the highest we have allowed and still won) Statistically, this game looked much like the one in Miami, just a little closer.

I had said that in order to win, we needed to shoot well- I am glad Kyle was able to come through in that regard- he carried us. I will be interested to see if he can keep up his productivity vs GT. After the last game at Cameron, I am sure Coach Hewitt will make stopping Kyle's 3 point looks a point of emphasis. Will Kyle find other ways to score? Will Nolan or Jon step up tomorrow? Or will we get offense from an unexpected place (Z? Mason?)

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:37 AM
I seem to be the only person posting at this point. Sorry.

I have said in the past that when the Plumlees get fed an alley-oop dunk or two early in the game, they tend to play better for the rest of the game and I think today we saw that again. Kyle made that nice alley-oop assist to Mason about 4 minutes into the game, and then Mason fed his brother for one less than a minute later. Next thing, the two of them were blocking shots, getting back better on defense, and committing fewer fouls. I think it's a confidence thing for both of them, which hopefully will continue.

What I liked about this game is a lot of the things people insist "can't" happen if we want to win happened today and we still won. Just yesterday people were saying Jon can't have any more off-shooting games, but he did again. People have said we can't get our guards in foul trouble, but both Nolan and Jon had 2 fairly early in the first half. I felt both Nolan and Jon had off games (i.e., two of our Big Three were off). We didn't shoot the three particularly well (less than 32%). We were facing a very quick guard. Yet despite all these red flags we still won, and I feel pretty good about that.

Let's keep up the defensive intensity tomorrow and win this thing.

You will need that defense...Tech is a much better team. My heart is pulling for Georgia Tech but every practical bone in me tells me Duke will win in a close, low scoring match. I think the feeling will be throughout the game that though it is close Georgia Tech just isn't going to win.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:38 AM
I seem to recall us using it in 1986, so I don't think it's so new. The rest I agree with.

yep, 1986

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:45 AM
"3) Duke’s Late Game Patience:

Mike Krzyzewski likes to take the air out of the ball when his team gets a 10-12 point lead with 5-6 minutes to go. Some fans are critical of that. In fact, today it did backfire a little bit, with Duke getting three shot clock violations.
What many people fail to understand is that when Duke sits on ball with a lead, it is very difficult for opponents to catch up, because the Blue Devils shoot free throws well, handle the ball well and make good decisions. Coach K does not care about how many Duke wins by, he just wants to shorten the game and make it difficult for the opponent to catch up. It has worked well for him many years."

Bonus:

"And One:


The Blue Devils started the second half on a 26-7 run in the first eight minutes of second half. During that run Singler and Scheyer made five 3-pointers. Those guys are special."

Full article (http://www.accsports.com/articles/201003137379/kuipers-3-pointer-duke-miami.php)

I think Krzyzewski knew the measure of his opponent today as well. Against a better team he would not have felt so comfortable with that lead. He would have felt compelled to keep trying to score. Maybe it almost cost them the game this time but, again, he knew who he was playing. He put faith in his team's ball handling and free throw shooting prowess, and rightly so. As for tomorrow, man I will be pulling for Tech. I think the Devils will win out in the end though.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:50 AM
I disagree with this. Not losing proves everything.

I don't know what percentage of games we've lost after running the stall over the past 10 or 20 years, but my guess is it's pretty small, and as someone else pointed out I'm pretty sure we're undefeated using it this year. If the goal is to win and we always (or almost always) win using a particular strategy, what else do you want?

What else do I want? I would like to see Coach Krzyzewski change his coaching scheme all together and try all kinds of wild offenses and defenses just on a whim. I would like to see them fail miserably. Just joking folks.....I have read and heard a few complaints about today's game but in the end the job was done, they got the win.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:53 AM
I can't remember what happened in 2005 at UNC. I remember losing a lead, that's it. As for 2004, we had no strategy of any kind in that game at the end because everyone on the team above 6'6" fouled out. We couldn't hold onto the ball, couldn't run an offense, couldn't keep them off the boards, couldn't do anything. You actually have to have a team on the floor to run stall ball or anything else. I don't think it was possible for K to do it at that point.

The game I remember us losing without stalling was '98 against Kentucky in the elite 8.

There is no perfect strategy.

I agree, there is no perfect strategy. I am sure Coach Krzyzewski as well as any other coach has to coach in the moment. What worked against a team one time may not work twice.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 06:57 AM
Say, did anyone notice Thomas and Zoubek combined for 11 points? And the MP duo did too. That is 22 points from the bigs, what a great time to put together those kind of games.

I still say you will need even more from your big guys to go deep into the NCAA. I think the other good teams that Duke may face have more physical and atheletic guards and will really outplay Duke's guards. I think the Duke frontcourt is going to make or break them in the NCAA tournament. I say you will need closer to 40 points from the big guys.

Chris4UNC
03-14-2010, 07:11 AM
Man do I want N.C. State in the finals. That game in Raleigh was the worst of the season. No better way to wrap up another ACC championship than with a win over that team, in front of a building full of people cheering for them.

That building is far from full. No offense, but with Carolina's miserable season ending on Thursday a vast majority of the ticket holders being Tar Heel fans followed Roy and company right out of Greensboro. Nevertheless it looks like Duke will win ACC championship #18, breaking the current tie of 17 they have with UNC. I was happy to let Duke take the ACC Tourny while my Heels took the National Title last year. As a matter of fact of the 9 times (5-4) UNC has been in the national title game they have coupled said apperance with an ACC Tourny title only 5 times. But boy, I would love to see UNC in Duke's shoes right now. What a rough year it has been.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2010, 08:06 AM
I seem to recall us using [stallball] in 1986, so I don't think it's so new. The rest I agree with.

We absolutely used stallball in 1991-92.

You can get away with starting it so early (7:30 remaining) against the 12-seed in the ACC Tournament. I wouldn't want to try it like that in the NCAAs past the second round.

Indoor66
03-14-2010, 09:28 AM
That building is far from full. No offense, but with Carolina's miserable season ending on Thursday a vast majority of the ticket holders being Tar Heel fans followed Roy and company right out of Greensboro. Nevertheless it looks like Duke will win ACC championship #18, breaking the current tie of 17 they have with UNC. I was happy to let Duke take the ACC Tourny while my Heels took the National Title last year. As a matter of fact of the 9 times (5-4) UNC has been in the national title game they have coupled said apperance with an ACC Tourny title only 5 times. But boy, I would love to see UNC in Duke's shoes right now. What a rough year it has been.

Has Inside Carolina shut down and now you have to post, endlessly, over here?

Papa John
03-14-2010, 09:57 AM
Good grief!!! Give it a rest. I for one believe that Coach K has figured it out and that his end of game strategy maximizes the team's chance of winning. ! We have heard your opinion ad nauseum.

I, for one, respectfully request that DevilDownUnder not "give it a rest" and criticize K's use of "stall ball" to his heart's content.

Good grief, this is supposed to be a discussion board. You and RoyWhite are free to agree or disagree with DDU's opinion and to engage in spirited discussion with him about it, or to completely ignore him and discuss other aspects of the game to your hearts' content. I happen to disagree with DDU and think we've used stall ball very effectively this season and, despite the sloppiness last night in its execution, I had no problem with K's decision to use it. But, get over yourselves with the backhanded attempts to stifle someone's voice because you happen to be tired of hearing it.

roywhite
03-14-2010, 10:11 AM
I, for one, respectfully request that DevilDownUnder not "give it a rest" and criticize K's use of "stall ball" to his heart's content.

Good grief, this is supposed to be a discussion board. You and RoyWhite are free to agree or disagree with DDU's opinion and to engage in spirited discussion with him about it, or to completely ignore him and discuss other aspects of the game to your hearts' content. I happen to disagree with DDU and think we've used stall ball very effectively this season and, despite the sloppiness last night in its execution, I had no problem with K's decision to use it. But, get over yourselves with the backhanded attempts to stifle someone's voice because you happen to be tired of hearing it.

When a poster makes over 20 posts on the same thread, making essentially the same point, as devildownunder has done on this thread---a "give it a rest" request is reasonable. This was a postgame thread, not a stallball thread.