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Mudge
03-12-2010, 08:57 AM
For inexplicable reasons, DBR seems to have certain whipping boys (and correspondingly, certain anointed ones) among the ACC basketball coaches:

1) They are always making excuses for Sidney Lowe, who has never won, let alone been any good, anywhere he has coached... they are always talking about "he doesn't have much talent, but he has a few good pieces, and when he gets a true ACC-caliber squad, they should be very good"... yeah, right... how many years has he been there now, and how long is it going to take to get that talent-- and who is supposed to be responsible for getting the talent in the door anyway?

2) DBR is always running down the current coaches at BC, FSU, and Miami despite the fact that Leonard Hamilton built Miami (a basketball wasteland then) into an NCAA-tourney regular when they were in the Big East, did a creditable job at Ok. State, and has done wonderfully well at FSU-- just as his predecessor Pat Kennedy did a great job there, but could never get a fair assessment, let alone a decent compliment, from DBR... but just let Steve Robinson (for some unknown reason, another of DBR's anointed ones) show a faint glimmer of maybe recovering FSU's past basketball success-- but never getting anything worth talking about actually accomplished, and DBR was ready and waiting with Lowe-like compliments about what a "comer" Robinson was, even though his entire tenure was an abysmal failure.

Similarly, Al Skinner has done an excellent job at BC, but somehow, DBR has been deluded into the belief that BC has experienced a "steady decline" since they joined the ACC-- something not supported by DBR's own data on BC's W/L record-- is it just that BC plays Duke hard-nosed and tough every time Duke sees them? Somehow, DBR is as deluded as Jim Sumner, in saying that Virginia is going to be a tougher game for Duke today than BC would have been-- Hello? Did either of you even watch the two games that Duke played against these two teams this year-- did you even notice which team battled Duke hard for the majority of the game, and which team was out of it from the opening tip? I expect Duke to literally bury Virginia again today-- but not according to Jim Sumner and DBR ('cause they love Tony Bennett and his dad, as much as they love Scott Drew and his dad).

And Frank Haith has done an excellent job in restoring Miami's competitiveness, lost in the period after Hamilton left... but once again, DBR can barely see a single good thing about him, despite his team battling Duke hard (and beating them last year) in nearly every matchup, and Haith making Miami into a viable post-season tournament team. If Steve Robinson or Sidney Lowe had done half of what Haith or Hamilton did at Miami, you wouldn't be able to get DBR to stop singing their praises today.

3) Plenty of guys have had success in this league but DBR was blind to it-- they completely failed to acknowledge anything that Cliff Ellis and Rick Barnes accomplished at Clemson, and the same with with Kennedy at FSU, but let Oliver Pernell do essentially no more than Barnes or Ellis at Clemson, and suddenly Pernell is the second coming; similarly, Steve Robinson had an unlimited honeymoon with the DBR, despite year after year of disappointing results until he was fired (and has hardly resurfaced as a big success anywhere else). DBR loves Pernell the way they loved John Thompson (both of them), and is completely blind to all of the huge faults of Thompson senior-- I would have been embarassed to claim Georgetown as my alma mater, with the kind of player and team representation that the first Thompson put on the floor, when he was at Georgetown-- I still would be embarassed to have once had that antagonistic bunch of non-scholars and dirty players as representatives of my university-- every bit as much as I would have been embarassed to claim the 1980's-- 2000's Miami Hurricane football players as representatives of my university... but DBR could find a way to forgive the John Thompsons' and the John Cheney's of the world, despite their excursions over the line of decency, while Cliff Ellis, Pat Kennedy, and Rick Barnes are irredeemable, apparently-- is there a double standard at work in DBR's assessment of coaches-- I think so.

4) This doesn't even touch on DBR's admittedly biased assessment of Quin Snyder's coaching career, and their lack of candor about the bulk of Coach K's proteges' success in coaching (or lack thereof). You don't hear a lot from DBR this year about Oklahoma and Jeff Capel-- because there is not much good to say. You also don't hear much about some of the other guys (Henderson, Dawkins, O'Toole, etc.) because there is not much to say-- but you did hear a lot about Harvard and Amaker early-- and not much lately. Brey is doing OK-- but Brey isn't doing anything that Seth Greenberg hasn't done at Va. Tech-- and Greenberg is lucky if/when he can catch a small break from DBR, in their assessment of him.

miramar
03-12-2010, 09:13 AM
"And Frank Haith has done an excellent job in restoring Miami's competitiveness"

I think you are confusing him with Randy Shannon.

In order to tell them apart, remember that Shannon is the one with the intense glare, and Haith is the one with the perpetually confused look on his face.

Matches
03-12-2010, 09:16 AM
I don't think there's any pretense that DBR's thoughts on coaches are anything other than editorials. There's no question the owners of the site have favorites and.. uh... non-favorites, but all they're doing is expressing opinions. Reasonable people can diagree with most head coaching assessments.

mgtr
03-12-2010, 09:23 AM
Anything more complex than second grade arithmetic will always be influenced by some point of view -- even "hard" science. That doesn't cause me a problem, and from the spirited debates on DBR I don't think it stifles discussion here.

wilko
03-12-2010, 09:40 AM
Reality?

I only want them to be just good enuff to give our victories over them *some* occasional meaning. I dont want them to be good enuff to actually beat us...

If they are not Duke, they are fodder.

DukeAppWV
03-12-2010, 09:44 AM
"And Frank Haith has done an excellent job in restoring Miami's competitiveness"

I think you are confusing him with Randy Shannon.

In order to tell them apart, remember that Shannon is the one with the intense glare, and Haith is the one with the perpetually confused look on his face.

Frank Haith has done a very good job at Miami - 2 years ago he was one point from making the Sweet 16 - Sidney, Purnell have never even won an NCAA tourney game ---- One thing that tells me who the quality guys are is how their teams perform at the end of a really tough season - You have never seen Frank Haith's team quit on him ----

NSDukeFan
03-12-2010, 09:48 AM
Thanks Mudge for your point of view and thoughts on the coaches in the conference. I don't have a problem with your point of view and certainly don't have a problem with the editorials from DBR and definitely welcome any and all contributions from Jim. You of course are welcome to different impressions and points of view from them, but is it possible that you have favorites and coaches that you don't like as well?

Johnboy
03-12-2010, 09:51 AM
Reality?

I only want them to be just good enuff to give our victories over them *some* occasional meaning. I dont want them to be good enuff to actually beat us...

If they are not Duke, they are fodder.

I dissent. This is nice in theory, but my observation is that the better the conference is, the better prepared its members are for the NCAAs.

Wander
03-12-2010, 09:52 AM
I also have no idea why Virginia will be tougher for Duke than BC would. Boston College is better by about every measure out there (RPI, conference standings, etc), and most of those barely include the fact that UVA is without their best player. I'm not guaranteeing a blowout or even a victory, but I'd MUCH rather face UVA than BC - there's a reason they finished the regular season on a 9 game losing streak.

And you neglected to mention the best part of the article - the implication that Greenberg wouldn't be a decent guy if he chose to accept another job.

sagegrouse
03-12-2010, 09:53 AM
The "dogs that didn't bark" in your screed were Paul Hewitt and Dino Gaudio, whom you did not mention and who, I believe, have been the most frequent target of criticism on the Home Page. Can we presume you agree with DBR on those two?

"DBR is as deluded as Jim Sumner?" I assume you mean that the two were building up today's opponent (which DBR always does), not that Sumner is delusional. In fact, Jim Sumner (whom I don't know) comes across as so calm and rational that I'm not sure I trust him any more.:)

WRT to El Sid, he has been unimpressive as a coach, to say the least, but he has some talent coming in next year. State will certainly give him a year or two more to see if he can take State to the top half of the ACC.

sagegrouse

wilko
03-12-2010, 10:04 AM
I dissent. This is nice in theory, but my observation is that the better the conference is, the better prepared its members are for the NCAAs.

I agree to a point.
However, whether we are the only ranked team in the league, or if ALL the league teams are ranked... We should always be the whipped cream and cherry on top of the ACC sundae.

DukeDude
03-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Virginia may not have much chance against Duke in Friday’s quarterfinal matchup but they have a better chance than Boston College.


Virginia has a better chance to beat Duke today because they play Duke, while BC's season is over. Jim's article was written after Thursday's games.

tele
03-12-2010, 10:13 AM
I didn't find anything in DBR's brief overview of the conference coaching landscape that outrageous. I thought the focus was on Wake and Gtech, where the difficulties seem obvious. If the OP's perspective is drastically different, then what coaching changes does the OP foresee in the ACC before next season? DBR has indicated their views, what are yours?

Wander
03-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Virginia has a better chance to beat Duke today because they play Duke, while BC's season is over. Jim's article was written after Thursday's games.

Ohhhhhhh. If that's the interpretation, then yeah that makes a lot more sense.

Though I'd still like to say their chances are about equal. :)

blueprofessor
03-12-2010, 10:43 AM
Pat Kennedy was a very fine coach at FSU and the Noles finished 2nd to the national champion (Duke,then UNC) in the conference regular season in each of first two years (1991-92 and 1992-93) FSU was in the ACC.
Three nights before FSU's first ACC game (vs. UNC at the Hell in 1991) Pat, over a hamburger, showed me on a napkin the plays his team would run to rout UNC.
FSU decisively defeated UNC and Dean had no answer for those plays. I was at that game . The crowd was stunned.

FSU advanced to the Sweet 16 the first year and to the Elite 8 the second year in the ACC, a season that saw FSU set a school record for wins (25).
Kennedy was ACC COY in the first year--while Coach K did a great job that year (and could have won that award), Kennedy did a tremendous job and obviously convinced the ACC writers of that fact.

Cliff Ellis, BTW, won ACC COY in 1987 and 1990.

Kennedy left FSU because he was a poor administrator and had been warned repeatedly by the AD to correct that deficiency.He didn't.
But he was a fine coach who was not only intelligent at Xs and Os, but also a brilliant in-game tactician.
Pat also had the good judgment to form a close relationship with K and he despised Dean Smith, whom he considered among the most arrogant people he had ever known.

Coaching is tough.However, when coaches have a good deal of talent and still have mediocre records, their coaching should be scrutinized. We have been spoiled in the ACC by K and Smith--they are hard to emulate.

As far as Leonard Hamilton, FSU fans like him but realize that his teams will not be offensive powerhouses, but ,rather, plodding, successful defensive teams (like the Duke women the last 3 years). He was ACC COY last year, yet some fans think he should be replaced. While he has been a little better than a .500 coach in his career, his teams play hard.That goes a long way with me.That is why I admired Miami's play yesterday---that is the least a well-coached team should do.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

Mudge
03-12-2010, 11:15 AM
I didn't find anything in DBR's brief overview of the conference coaching landscape that outrageous. I thought the focus was on Wake and Gtech, where the difficulties seem obvious. If the OP's perspective is drastically different, then what coaching changes does the OP foresee in the ACC before next season? DBR has indicated their views, what are yours?

I am referencing a plethora of misguided DBR editorials on coaching quality in the ACC--DBR has increased its decibel level on this in recent years, but as you can tell by my references to Pat Kennedy, Cliff Ellis, and Steve Robinson, I have been taking note of DBR's relative coaching assessment cluelessness for nigh on 12-13 years now.

As for my views on the league's coaches, I would say that Bennett may well turn out to be excellent-- it is far too early to predict anything yet (though early returns were surprisingly good-- but has Bennett done anything approaching what Hewitt has done at Siena and his early years at Tech, when he took them to the national championship game, something Bennett can only dream about at this stage-- and yet Hewitt is firmly entrenched in DBR's doghouse right now.) Bennett obviously is going nowhere, yet, of course.

I don't think Hewitt is going anywhere, because he has relatively good, talented, competitive teams, he was National Coach of the year 5 years ago, he beat Duke and Carolina a total of 4 times this year, and he is probably going to the NCAA tournament this year, at a school that, other than a modest stint under Cremins (who couldn't sustain that), has no tradition of excellence in basketball, and thus no reason to expect more-- and the politically incorrect fact is that Hewitt is a highly polished and reasonably accomplished minority coach in a city that is minority dominated-- it will look very bad for the AD, if he fires him, so the AD would have to be ready to take some serious heat, if he is going to do that.

I think Gaudio is in trouble-- Wake has a much better basketball tradition than Tech, and although at first Gaudio seemed to improve Wake over Prosser (who could never teach his teams, either at X or Wake, to play anything other than feckless, helter-skelter, offense and defense, much like his predecessor/mentor at X, Pete Gillen), and Gaudio maintained recruiting at a high level, there is no ignoring the year-end collapses that have now become a hallmark of Prosser/Gaudio-coached teams. Gaudio will probably be gone.

Lowe will get another year, and if next year is like this year, he will likely be gone-- if slightly better, he probably gets another year, because of his State pedigree.

Pernell is neither impressing me, nor failing-- he's doing exactly what has been done countless times before at Clemson-- they still do all the same things right (and wrong) that they always have, with exactly the same kind of players.

Skinner is a very good coach-- the only question is whether he will continue to get the quality of recruits that he needs to return to previous levels of success... I don't think he's going anywhere this year, but he probably can't afford to do this again next year, especially with nearly all of his players back.

R. Williams is being ridiculously (and unfairly) crucified by DBR right now-- but at least I understand that one-- UNC is the hated rival, and he has far surpassed Coach K over the last 5 year period, so when he gets his comeuppance, as one might hope he would (as a Duke fan), of course DBR is going to want to rub it in, however unfounded their accusations might be... remember, this is the same DBR that wanted to refer to the Smith interregnum at UNC, after Doherty blew up the store, and now is confronted with a UNC with 5 national championships under 3 different head coaches, while Duke is still stuck on 3 from one coach, with no signs of any proteges of Coach K ever approaching the level of success that Williams has produced for Smith.

Greenberg is very, very good-- and might even be great, if he goes to St. Johns. Don't know where his heart lies, but I doubt that he has "put down roots in Blacksburg" as DBR alleges-- I think he stays at least another year.

Hamilton is far, far better than DBR gives him credit for, and is going nowhere. Same for Haith. Williams is more likely to go than those two-- because he has to put up with that dolt D. Yow as AD... and he's gonna stay, of course.

Mudge
03-12-2010, 11:17 AM
Pat Kennedy was a very fine coach at FSU and the Noles finished 2nd to the national champion (Duke,then UNC) in the conference regular season in each of first two years (1991-92 and 1992-93) FSU was in the ACC.
Three nights before FSU's first ACC game (vs. UNC at the Hell in 1991) Pat, over a hamburger, showed me on a napkin the plays his team would run to rout UNC.
FSU decisively defeated UNC and Dean had no answer for those plays. I was at that game . The crowd was stunned.

FSU advanced to the Sweet 16 the first year and to the Elite 8 the second year in the ACC, a season that saw FSU set a school record for wins (25).
Kennedy was ACC COY in the first year--while Coach K did a great job that year (and could have won that award), Kennedy did a tremendous job and obviously convinced the ACC writers of that fact.

Cliff Ellis, BTW, won ACC COY in 1987 and 1990.

Kennedy left FSU because he was a poor administrator and had been warned repeatedly by the AD to correct that deficiency.He didn't.
But he was a fine coach who was not only intelligent at Xs and Os, but also a brilliant in-game tactician.
Pat also had the good judgment to form a close relationship with K and he despised Dean Smith, whom he considered among the most arrogant people he had ever known.

Coaching is tough.However, when coaches have a good deal of talent and still have mediocre records, their coaching should be scrutinized. We have been spoiled in the ACC by K and Smith--they are hard to emulate.

As far as Leonard Hamilton, FSU fans like him but realize that his teams will not be offensive powerhouses, but ,rather, plodding, successful defensive teams (like the Duke women the last 3 years). He was ACC COY last year, yet some fans think he should be replaced. While he has been a little better than a .500 coach in his career, his teams play hard.That goes a long way with me.That is why I admired Miami's play yesterday---that is the least a well-coached team should do.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

All good stuff, BlueP-- couldn't agree more with virtually all of your comments.

davekay1971
03-12-2010, 12:18 PM
Lowe will get another year, and if next year is like this year, he will likely be gone-- if slightly better, he probably gets another year, because of his State pedigree.

Lowe will get another year or more largely because he's bringing in the most highly regarded recruiting class State has had in recent memory next year. If State stinks out loud, then, yes, I agree, he's probably in trouble. If they show improvement over this year, then he'll get another year or more because of the quality of talent he's bringing in more than his State pedigree.

WiJoe
03-12-2010, 04:17 PM
For inexplicable reasons, DBR seems to have certain whipping boys (and correspondingly, certain anointed ones) among the ACC basketball coaches:

1) They are always making excuses for Sidney Lowe, who has never won, let alone been any good, anywhere he has coached... they are always talking about "he doesn't have much talent, but he has a few good pieces, and when he gets a true ACC-caliber squad, they should be very good"... yeah, right... how many years has he been there now, and how long is it going to take to get that talent-- and who is supposed to be responsible for getting the talent in the door anyway?

2) DBR is always running down the current coaches at BC, FSU, and Miami despite the fact that Leonard Hamilton built Miami (a basketball wasteland then) into an NCAA-tourney regular when they were in the Big East, did a creditable job at Ok. State, and has done wonderfully well at FSU-- just as his predecessor Pat Kennedy did a great job there, but could never get a fair assessment, let alone a decent compliment, from DBR... but just let Steve Robinson (for some unknown reason, another of DBR's anointed ones) show a faint glimmer of maybe recovering FSU's past basketball success-- but never getting anything worth talking about actually accomplished, and DBR was ready and waiting with Lowe-like compliments about what a "comer" Robinson was, even though his entire tenure was an abysmal failure.

Similarly, Al Skinner has done an excellent job at BC, but somehow, DBR has been deluded into the belief that BC has experienced a "steady decline" since they joined the ACC-- something not supported by DBR's own data on BC's W/L record-- is it just that BC plays Duke hard-nosed and tough every time Duke sees them? Somehow, DBR is as deluded as Jim Sumner, in saying that Virginia is going to be a tougher game for Duke today than BC would have been-- Hello? Did either of you even watch the two games that Duke played against these two teams this year-- did you even notice which team battled Duke hard for the majority of the game, and which team was out of it from the opening tip? I expect Duke to literally bury Virginia again today-- but not according to Jim Sumner and DBR ('cause they love Tony Bennett and his dad, as much as they love Scott Drew and his dad).

And Frank Haith has done an excellent job in restoring Miami's competitiveness, lost in the period after Hamilton left... but once again, DBR can barely see a single good thing about him, despite his team battling Duke hard (and beating them last year) in nearly every matchup, and Haith making Miami into a viable post-season tournament team. If Steve Robinson or Sidney Lowe had done half of what Haith or Hamilton did at Miami, you wouldn't be able to get DBR to stop singing their praises today.

3) Plenty of guys have had success in this league but DBR was blind to it-- they completely failed to acknowledge anything that Cliff Ellis and Rick Barnes accomplished at Clemson, and the same with with Kennedy at FSU, but let Oliver Pernell do essentially no more than Barnes or Ellis at Clemson, and suddenly Pernell is the second coming; similarly, Steve Robinson had an unlimited honeymoon with the DBR, despite year after year of disappointing results until he was fired (and has hardly resurfaced as a big success anywhere else). DBR loves Pernell the way they loved John Thompson (both of them), and is completely blind to all of the huge faults of Thompson senior-- I would have been embarassed to claim Georgetown as my alma mater, with the kind of player and team representation that the first Thompson put on the floor, when he was at Georgetown-- I still would be embarassed to have once had that antagonistic bunch of non-scholars and dirty players as representatives of my university-- every bit as much as I would have been embarassed to claim the 1980's-- 2000's Miami Hurricane football players as representatives of my university... but DBR could find a way to forgive the John Thompsons' and the John Cheney's of the world, despite their excursions over the line of decency, while Cliff Ellis, Pat Kennedy, and Rick Barnes are irredeemable, apparently-- is there a double standard at work in DBR's assessment of coaches-- I think so.

4) This doesn't even touch on DBR's admittedly biased assessment of Quin Snyder's coaching career, and their lack of candor about the bulk of Coach K's proteges' success in coaching (or lack thereof). You don't hear a lot from DBR this year about Oklahoma and Jeff Capel-- because there is not much good to say. You also don't hear much about some of the other guys (Henderson, Dawkins, O'Toole, etc.) because there is not much to say-- but you did hear a lot about Harvard and Amaker early-- and not much lately. Brey is doing OK-- but Brey isn't doing anything that Seth Greenberg hasn't done at Va. Tech-- and Greenberg is lucky if/when he can catch a small break from DBR, in their assessment of him.


Geez. Lotta time on your hands? This clutters cyberspace

So, start your own site?

moonpie23
03-12-2010, 04:25 PM
I dissent. This is nice in theory, but my observation is that the better the conference is, the better prepared its members are for the NCAAs.

florida.....back to back titles...

miramar
03-12-2010, 04:38 PM
Now I love Haith! Anybody who beats Seth is fine with me.

Actually, I have watched a good number of UM's games this year (five of their home games), and the team has played very poorly in the ACC. They have blown leads and generally played dumb basketball at the end of games, but they seem to have gotten a new life in the tournament.

In the long run, Haith will only be successful if he gets a recruiting base in Florida. He only has two FL players (both seniors), so he has to fight for the leftovers in other regions. UM can't have more players from NC than from FL.

wilko
03-12-2010, 04:47 PM
I'll love Haith after they rollover for us tomorrow... If they come out on top, not so much..

gumbomoop
03-12-2010, 05:06 PM
R. Williams is being ridiculously (and unfairly) crucified by DBR right now...., however unfounded their accusations might be....

As one who has authored several - make that quite a few - posts on the Roy thread, I accept your challenge, thusly: It's true that I and others have approached the ridiculous in the relentlessness with which we have "crucified" Ol' Roy. The substantive posts have hardly been either "unfair" or "unfounded," however, for their foundation is the horrible coaching job he's done this season, made more "ridiculous" by his immature, embarrassing, third-person-pseudo-self-psychoanalysis in repeated pressers. He has demonstrated no ability whatsoever, at least this season, with these, his own recruited, players, to adjust to their particular strengths and weaknesses. And, despicably, he's blamed it all on them; all the more despicable for his repeated pretense at taking the blame, followed by a "but they gotta change." Ol' Roy is the exemplar of the rule, "Ignore everything before the but."

brevity
03-12-2010, 06:03 PM
Geez. Lotta time on your hands? This clutters cyberspace

So, start your own site?

Don't discourage long posts with the old "you must have too much time on your hands" reply. We're all at least somewhat guilty of that. I don't entirely agree with the OP's assessments, but I thought they made interesting reading. The Main Topic Board is here, in part, to encourage dissent.

Exiled_Devil
03-12-2010, 11:45 PM
You clearly have an issue with this if you are going back to DBR's take on Barnes at Clemson - DBR barely existed before he left for Texas.

As for the current ACC coaches, DBR's positions are not that far from the Triangle sports radio personalities, so its not like they are way off in left field.

The 99.9 radio guys this afternoon were talking about how the ACC coaches with the exception of Coach K don't seem to be trying to play their way into the NCAA's. Given that so far (as of 4:40 left in NCSU/FSU) the only higher seed to win in the ACC Tourney has been Duke (and Gtech yesterday), its easy to attribute the poor coaching of the 'superior talented' teams. Especially with the low scoring that has occurred this weekend.

I will say that with Lowe, the argument that he has gotten the most out of the talent he has had and is due to get some great talent next year. He deserves the time he has had, and has shown progress.

Roy does deserve ridicule for this year - in particular, for his reaction to his team. His coaching is not up to what people expect of him, and its easy to look for this as a pattern in our rival.

I can't speak to directly about the teams outside of NC.

However, I don't know what you want from the analysis of our former players and coaches - sure, most of the stories are about when they are doing well and feel good. As a Duke fan site, that makes perfect sense to me. I'd rather read about Snyder's redemption as a D-League coach than his failures in Mizzou. I'd rather read about Jwill's analysis than his 1 season and injury, too.

Mudge
03-13-2010, 11:36 AM
Geez. Lotta time on your hands? This clutters cyberspace

So, start your own site?

Feel free not to read-- just as I sometimes tune out DBR's editorials, because of their illogic-- and cyberspace was MEANT for clutter.

Mudge
03-13-2010, 11:53 AM
As one who has authored several - make that quite a few - posts on the Roy thread, I accept your challenge, thusly: It's true that I and others have approached the ridiculous in the relentlessness with which we have "crucified" Ol' Roy. The substantive posts have hardly been either "unfair" or "unfounded," however, for their foundation is the horrible coaching job he's done this season, made more "ridiculous" by his immature, embarrassing, third-person-pseudo-self-psychoanalysis in repeated pressers. He has demonstrated no ability whatsoever, at least this season, with these, his own recruited, players, to adjust to their particular strengths and weaknesses. And, despicably, he's blamed it all on them; all the more despicable for his repeated pretense at taking the blame, followed by a "but they gotta change." Ol' Roy is the exemplar of the rule, "Ignore everything before the but."

You (and the DBR editors) act like this is the first time RWilliams has had to coach his own players-- the guy's been to numerous Final Fours with his own players in the past-- how did he do coaching his own players the last two years?

There's no denying RWilliams has far surpassed Coach K's results over the last 5 years-- any more than a Carolina fan would have been able to argue that K had not surpassed Smith's results over the previous 5 years, from the vantage point of the 1992-93 season. In neither case, does it mean that the up-and-comer's five-year span of success allows him to claim that he has surpassed the substantive accomplishments of the older incumbent's much lengthier career... just as one season of relative incompetence does not invalidate that 5-year period of excellence (in 2010 for RWilliams, any more than 2007 did for Coach K).

In any event, if K can bounce back with an unexpected national title this year, the way that Smith did in 1993, I will be only too happy to acknowledge those parallels.

As for your comments on RWilliams-- I never saw them-- when I said DBR, I was referring to the site's authors' editorials... the fact that they have been watching ACC basketball for a really long time does not seem to have increased their insight on the activity.

Johnboy
03-13-2010, 12:23 PM
florida.....back to back titles...

My point exactly! When Florida repeated, the SEC was the #1 ranked (http://www.warrennolan.com/basketball/2007/conferencerank) conference. In 2006 when Florida won, the SEC had two final four teams (LSU).

BD80
03-13-2010, 12:25 PM
Who has done the worst coaching job this year, Barnes or ol' roy?

Two of the most talented teams in the nation and the average ranking is ... Not Ranked.

Barnes sure can recruit, but he sure can't coach. At least ol' roy doesn't PREVENT his team from winning a NC.

gumbomoop
03-13-2010, 12:35 PM
You (and the DBR editors) act like this is the first time RWilliams has had to coach his own players-- the guy's been to numerous Final Fours with his own players in the past-- how did he do coaching his own players the last two years?

There's no denying RWilliams has far surpassed Coach K's results over the last 5 years-- any more than a Carolina fan would have been able to argue that K had not surpassed Smith's results over the previous 5 years, from the vantage point of the 1992-93 season. In neither case, does it mean that the up-and-comer's five-year span of success allows him to claim that he has surpassed the substantive accomplishments of the older incumbent's much lengthier career... just as one season of relative incompetence does not invalidate that 5-year period of excellence (in 2010 for RWilliams, any more than 2007 did for Coach K).

In any event, if K can bounce back with an unexpected national title this year, the way that Smith did in 1993, I will be only too happy to acknowledge those parallels.

As for your comments on RWilliams-- I never saw them-- when I said DBR, I was referring to the site's authors' editorials... the fact that they have been watching ACC basketball for a really long time does not seem to have increased their insight on the activity.

OK, I accept your correction that your references were to DBR, not Roy thread. My mistake.

Still, as to the substance of your complaint against DBR - that they have ridiculously and unfairly blasted Roy for unfounded reasons - I'm happy to defend DBR, by making precisely the substantive points I made in my post. Granted, I'm referring only to this year, and it's possible your complaint against DBR re Roy refers to prior years. I further grant your point that this season of incompetence [nothing "relative" about it, however] does not invalidate his many accomplishments. Indeed, it's his total failure this year that has obviously fascinated lots of us. We didn't see it coming. We couldn't imagine the abject failure of this season's Heels, nor Roy's total failure. Again, not relative failure this season. Total. Ask I[diot]Carolina. They'll confirm.

It's surely reasonable for any reader of your post to think your anger at DBR re Roy has something to do with this season, and what I'd insist are reasonable and fair critiques of Roy's abysmal coaching, and ever more abysmal excuses. His coaching and [to me more troubling] behavior this season has been crummy. His repeated comments that say "I'm responsible" at the same time he's pointing fingers at players has been...... crummy.

FWIW, I think Roy has obviously come close to some deep personal chasm this year - especially as he has said so, publicly, repeatedly - but I'd guess that both he and the Heels will rebound next year. But only if he can find answers to PG and chemistry/leadership issues, the latter of which begins with the coach.

Mudge
03-13-2010, 12:57 PM
OK, I accept your correction that your references were to DBR, not Roy thread. My mistake.

Still, as to the substance of your complaint against DBR - that they have ridiculously and unfairly blasted Roy for unfounded reasons - I'm happy to defend DBR, by making precisely the substantive points I made in my post. Granted, I'm referring only to this year, and it's possible your complaint against DBR re Roy refers to prior years. I further grant your point that this season of incompetence [nothing "relative" about it, however] does not invalidate his many accomplishments. Indeed, it's his total failure this year that has obviously fascinated lots of us. We didn't see it coming. We couldn't imagine the abject failure of this season's Heels, nor Roy's total failure. Again, not relative failure this season. Total. Ask I[diot]Carolina. They'll confirm.

It's surely reasonable for any reader of your post to think your anger at DBR re Roy has something to do with this season, and what I'd insist are reasonable and fair critiques of Roy's abysmal coaching, and ever more abysmal excuses. His coaching and [to me more troubling] behavior this season has been crummy. His repeated comments that say "I'm responsible" at the same time he's pointing fingers at players has been...... crummy.

FWIW, I think Roy has obviously come close to some deep personal chasm this year - especially as he has said so, publicly, repeatedly - but I'd guess that both he and the Heels will rebound next year. But only if he can find answers to PG and chemistry/leadership issues, the latter of which begins with the coach.

Just to be clear-- I am not angry at DBR over criticism of Roy-- I luxuriate in the losing over in Chapel Hill, along with the best of Duke fans-- this year has been better than any year in recent memory, save the Doherty meltdown 8-20 year.

I am merely saying that it is idiotic to try to make all these inferences about Roy from this year, and suggest that somehow he is finished, or incompetent, or not likely to be right back snapping at Duke's throat in 2 years (I don't see how he does it next year, because he doesn't have a ready remedy to his complete lack of competent point guard play, and Duke is likely to get substantively better at guard next year than they are this year).

Rather, I am annoyed that DBR has shown such a long-term, biased view against certain coaches in the ACC (Ellis, Kennedy, Barnes, Greenberg, Odom)-- and it seems as though that bias is, at least to some degree, driven by a double standard that gives extra credit to people DBR sees as breaking down racial barriers (Steve Robinson at FSU, Pernell at Clemson, Lowe at NCSU)... though this doesn't entirely explain it, as DBR has long-since abandoned the Hewitt and Skinner bandwagons, and was never on the Hamilton or Haith bandwagons, despite their excellent results. It just seems that, in DBR's mind, some coaches can do no wrong, and that is often driven by those coaches' stature as civil-rights icons (cf.- both Thompsons, Cheney, Haskins at UTEP).

Cockabeau
03-13-2010, 02:31 PM
Ask any casual Boston College fan if you think AL Skinner is an excellent coach.

Dukeface88
03-13-2010, 02:40 PM
Just to be clear-- I am not angry at DBR over criticism of Roy-- I luxuriate in the losing over in Chapel Hill, along with the best of Duke fans-- this year has been better than any year in recent memory, save the Doherty meltdown 8-20 year.

I am merely saying that it is idiotic to try to make all these inferences about Roy from this year, and suggest that somehow he is finished, or incompetent, or not likely to be right back snapping at Duke's throat in 2 years (I don't see how he does it next year, because he doesn't have a ready remedy to his complete lack of competent point guard play, and Duke is likely to get substantively better at guard next year than they are this year).


The consensus on Roy isn't based on this year. Duke fans have been saying the same thing (good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best) since he showed up. This season just confirmed it.

JG Nothing
03-13-2010, 04:45 PM
The consensus on Roy isn't based on this year. Duke fans have been saying the same thing (good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best) since he showed up. This season just confirmed it.

I have no respect for Roy Williams particularly after his whiny, self-indulgent behavior this season, but come on. You think he is just a "good recruiter, poor motivator, average strategist at best?" According to wikipedia, Williams has seven Final Fours, two national championships, and has won 80% of his games. Apparently, he has been doing something very well for the past twenty years.

Mudge
03-14-2010, 01:01 PM
Ask any casual Boston College fan if you think AL Skinner is an excellent coach.

Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity.

El_Diablo
03-14-2010, 01:36 PM
Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity.

I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand. :)

MADevil30
03-14-2010, 05:11 PM
I'd like to strongly agree about Al Skinner. Growing up as a BC fan (only a five minute walk away), I was really shocked that DBR included him in their list of underachieving ACC coaches. Yes, their record has declined a bit, but this analysis misses a few important facts.

First, BC's earliest years in the ACC were some of (if not THE) best teams in school history. 2006 was easily the best the Eagles have been in recent memory, and so it is not surprising that their records in conference in those first years were much better than current. As an aside, noting that they were very successful in the Big East immediately before the switch must take into account that not only were those usually good BC teams, they were also unusually weak years for the Big East on the whole.

More importantly, Skinner has always built his teams into winners by getting the most out of his players. It is really really hard to recruit basketball players to BC. Skinner has made his name not by getting blue chippers, but by searching out diamonds in the rough. Troy Bell, Craig Smith, Jared Dudley, Sean Marshall, and Tyreese Rice weren't seriously recruited by any other major programs, but Skinner found them and built solid teams around them. I think he probably deserves credit for developing them as well, as Smith and Dudley have even continued to longer than expected NBA careers. But its also really hard to keep hitting those diamonds in the rough successfully; more often than not, they don't pan out, and when that happens its tough to compete in a league like the ACC. Skinner has made the most out of a really tough basketball situation.

Finally, I'm always impressed with how hard BC plays us. Even when their record is not good, they make us work for the win, and even come out on top more often then you might expect.

I'd be willing to say that Skinner is one of the more underrated coaches in the country, let alone the ACC. DBR really missed on that one, at least in my book.

Zeb
03-14-2010, 05:21 PM
Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand. :)

C"mon - we can hate the heels all we want but putting a guy who has won 2 of the last 5 NC's at 4th? Behind a guy who has won nothing? Please. That is embarrassing.

Assuming by ranking coaches we are ranking all aspects of their job including recruiting, player development, staff, strategy, tactics--the whole shebang--then there is no question. K and Roy are clearly number 1 & 2. Gary is 3rd. Then there's a big gap.

I am totally in agreement on Gaudio being last--he is awful.

Kfanarmy
03-14-2010, 05:36 PM
Uh, yeah, that's the problem-- I'm not really interested in what the dilettantes think-- you're asking casual fans, which is kind of like asking casual physics students what they think of the theory of relativity. They're dilettants and you're basketball's equivalent of Einstein. No arrogane in this series of posts...though I have to admit getting bored halfway through the opinion and moving on. Of course were this physics, it would be proveable and not just a bunch of opinion(ated thought).

El_Diablo
03-14-2010, 05:43 PM
C"mon - we can hate the heels all we want but putting a guy who has won 2 of the last 5 NC's at 4th? Behind a guy who has won nothing? Please. That is embarrassing.

Assuming by ranking coaches we are ranking all aspects of their job including recruiting, player development, staff, strategy, tactics--the whole shebang--then there is no question. K and Roy are clearly number 1 & 2. Gary is 3rd. Then there's a big gap.

I am totally in agreement on Gaudio being last--he is awful.

Maybe I tend to value in-game coaching more. If all these coaches were given the same team and played a round robin after a couple weeks of practice, I think Roy would finish somewhere in the middle. After seeing this year's version of Roy...maybe below the middle. Meanwhile, Gary and Seth tend to do pretty well with players who aren't 5-star studs.

I originally had Roy as third overall, but I felt the need to penalize him a little for the truly terrible job he's done this year despite having 7 McDonalds All-Americans on his roster.

Mudge
03-15-2010, 09:52 AM
They're dilettants and you're basketball's equivalent of Einstein. No arrogane in this series of posts...though I have to admit getting bored halfway through the opinion and moving on. Of course were this physics, it would be proveable and not just a bunch of opinion(ated thought).

I never claimed to be Einstein-- the other poster is the one who suggested I talk to what he calls "casual fans", which is definitely a rung or two below my level of interest/scrutiny of college basketball.

Of course, if you were that bored (indicative to me of another casual fan), you wouldn't still be reading down here, in the posts at the bottom of the thread... and as a physics major, I would point out that, even in physics, much of what is conjectured and theorized remains just that: conjecture and theory-- and thus unproven (though perhaps provable some day). There's a reason that it's still called Einstein's THEORY of relativity, as opposed to the LAW of gravity.

Mudge
03-15-2010, 10:03 AM
I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand. :)

I think you have to put RWilliams second on the list, simply because of his success in the tournament (just as K moved up high, after his run from 86-94), and also because Williams has either the highest or one of the highest winning percentages of all coaches, all time, coaching only in top conferences. GWilliams can't compare, if for no other reason than his tournament success is far inferior. Also, a big part of coaching is recruiting, and RWilliams does that as well or better than anyone. For those who don't think Roy motivates well, I would say, look at how hard UNC competes against Duke (even when inferior-- see their victory over Duke at Duke in Hansborough's freshman year, that by all rights, never should have happened, when one compares the talent).

I also think you have Bennett far too high (he perhaps shouldn't even be ranked yet, at this stage of his limited career), and Hewitt deserves a higher ranking, because of what he has already done at GT (and Siena).

I'd put Lowe at the bottom of the list, behind Gaudio, because of his lack of success (to this point) in recruiting, where Gaudio has at least outdone him there, so far.

I'd probably go:
1)K
2)Roy
3)Gary
4)Hewitt
5)Hamilton/Skinner
7)Greenberg/Pernell/Haith
10)Gaudio
11) Lowe
TBD- Bennett

Matches
03-15-2010, 04:32 PM
I agree with reserving judgment on Bennett. I recall Pete Gillen looking like a great hire during his first year at UVa too. Even Leaito (sp) had some brief success.

I'd put Gaudio below Lowe though. The Aminu class wasn't really Dino's, and Lowe has had a few bad breaks re: recruiting. As far as in-game strategy goes, I think Lowe's superior (though still not very good).

Regenman
03-15-2010, 05:18 PM
I totally agree with the OP. I was involved in a post earlier this season where people were rushing to the defense of Coach K's protege legacy. It's frankly pretty bad this year.

As for DBR's focus on Barnes, I'm not quite sure why folks harp on UT's academics (especially when USA Today just did a mock bracketology run based on academic standing and Texas lost to Duke in the Final Four (and Kansas beats Duke in the Finals)).

As for the superbly talented Texas team (since I'm an alum of both), you really want to get into the recruit ranking comparison between Texas and Duke over the years and who has underperformed?

Let's look at the non-freshmen

Dexter Pittman (unranked) vs. Zoubek (24)
Damion James (17) vs. Singler (2)
Justin Mason (86) vs. Scheyer (71)
Gary Johnson (61) vs. Lance Thomas (42)
Alexis Wangmene (86) vs. Nolan Smith (39)
Clint Chapman (73) vs. Miles Plumlee (101)

Texas has one top 50 recruit whereas Duke has 4 (and frankly Scouts ranked Scheyer much higher than Rivals).

Barnes had a great freshmen class on paper. This year he wasn't able to integrate the team (so that makes him a bad coach?). Then compare the Big 12 to the ACC this year (Baylor, K State, Kansas, A&M versus Maryland???)

But yeah, Coach Barnes can't coach worth a lick and Texas has bad academics.........

Sometimes, the logic here at this site isn't worthy of supposed Duke grads.

NSDukeFan
03-16-2010, 10:42 AM
As for the superbly talented Texas team (since I'm an alum of both), you really want to get into the recruit ranking comparison between Texas and Duke over the years and who has underperformed?

Let's look at the non-freshmen

Dexter Pittman (unranked) vs. Zoubek (24)
Damion James (17) vs. Singler (2)
Justin Mason (86) vs. Scheyer (71)
Gary Johnson (61) vs. Lance Thomas (42)
Alexis Wangmene (86) vs. Nolan Smith (39)
Clint Chapman (73) vs. Miles Plumlee (101)

Texas has one top 50 recruit whereas Duke has 4 (and frankly Scouts ranked Scheyer much higher than Rivals).

Barnes had a great freshmen class on paper. This year he wasn't able to integrate the team (so that makes him a bad coach?). Then compare the Big 12 to the ACC this year (Baylor, K State, Kansas, A&M versus Maryland???)

But yeah, Coach Barnes can't coach worth a lick and Texas has bad academics.........

Sometimes, the logic here at this site isn't worthy of supposed Duke grads.

I'm confused with your point when comparing Texas and Duke's recruits. You could make an argument that every Duke player is better than every Texas player you have compared them to. There is not a huge discrepancy in any of the rankings except Pittman has become a very solid player for someone unranked and Smith is obviously way better than his comparison. So, as far as development go, I don't understand how you could argue about any of Duke' players underperforming relative to Texas. The issue with Texas underachieving was because their freshman class (who you excluded) was very highly ranked and they had most of a solid team back from the prior year.

Mudge
03-21-2010, 01:00 PM
Despite Bob Huggins making WVU very good very quickly (and Big East Champs in a very tough year), and making KSU very good very quickly (try one year), and UC very good for a long time (including a Final Four team, and several #1 seeds in tournament- and the only victory, other than UConn, over maybe Duke's best team ever in 1999), DBR keeps finding ways to slam him, saying that he always "finds a way to fall by the wayside early", even though he has gotten great results in the tournament, despite limited talent.

Only 2 years ago, Huggins used a far less talented WVU team to battle back from a big deficit and eliminate Duke from the NCAA tourney-- but DBR is still sure that Oliver Purnell is the second coming (despite the fact that he has never won an NCAA tourney game anywhere-- even with great talent in Clemson)... once again, DBR's double standard for coaching evaluations, that disregards results, in favor of affirmative action assessments seems to be at work.

Practically every other basketball coach in America would tell you that Bob Huggins is a tremendously good basketball coach, who gets the most out of his players, and teaches defense, toughness, and competitive fire as well as anyone in the country-- but not DBR-- they want to keep slamming him, because they don't like that he doesn't graduate his players (and probably because he managed to beat Duke on at least two notable occasions)-- if that's the criteria, then start slamming Gary Williams the same way-- he doesn't graduate players either... and I will be waiting eagerly to see the stats on Oliver Purnell's graduation rate at Clemson (and Dayton, for that matter)... or Steve Robinson's at FSU, or Bobby Cremins' at GIT, or any number of other DBR favorites who've experienced far less on-court success than Huggins, but don't graduate many players. It will be interesting to see how many Jeff Capel graduates at OU (or graduated at VCU), when the data come in.

Mudge
03-21-2010, 10:34 PM
Well, Huggins has his team in the Sweet 16, and his protege, Fearless Frank at Kansas State, is there too, with the program that Huggins single-handedly resuscitated from the morgue... I'll bet K would like to have at least one of his proteges hanging around somewhere in the tournament still, as would Oliver Purnell, Steve Robinson, or John Thompson, or any of the other fine coaches that DBR is so sure put Bob Huggins to shame...

theAlaskanBear
03-21-2010, 10:45 PM
Well, Huggins has his team in the Sweet 16, and his protege, Fearless Frank at Kansas State, is there too, with the program that Huggins single-handedly resuscitated from the morgue... I'll bet K would like to have at least one of his proteges hanging around somewhere in the tournament still, as would Oliver Purnell, Steve Robinson, or John Thompson, or any of the other fine coaches that DBR is so sure put Bob Huggins to shame...

I REALLY wish you would stop using "DBR" in your posts like there is some monolith for you to attack here. Or at the very least, DBR MINUS alaskanbear. We are all different posters, with different opinions, and you most certainly do not know what I think about various coaches. I

If you care to notice you are mostly just arguing with yourself here.

If you really feel the need, go ahead and build up strawmen to knock down and soothe your ego. But your fixation on this thread is a bit ridiculous.

Mudge
03-21-2010, 11:16 PM
I REALLY wish you would stop using "DBR" in your posts like there is some monolith for you to attack here. Or at the very least, DBR MINUS alaskanbear. We are all different posters, with different opinions, and you most certainly do not know what I think about various coaches. I

If you care to notice you are mostly just arguing with yourself here.

If you really feel the need, go ahead and build up strawmen to knock down and soothe your ego. But your fixation on this thread is a bit ridiculous.

DBR may not be a monolith, but it is a "bilith"-- it is constituted of the editorial opinions expressed on the main page-- most likely by one of the two founders of the site-- though the editorials are not signed, so that is uncertain. When I say DBR, I am hardly referring to the great unwashed mass of posters on this bulletin board-- obviously that group hardly presents one coherent position... It's clear you haven't read my earlier posts on this thread well enough to understand that-- but if you read the DBR main page postings, you would understand to which opinions I am referring.

Mudge
03-28-2010, 12:37 PM
Huggy Bear and WVU have sure fulfilled that brilliant prophecy, haven't they-- there isn't a team left in the tournament that I'd rather see less, right now, than West Virginia... Huggins goes to his second Final Four (a lot more than a bunch of other coaches that DBR holds in higher esteem) with another team of mostly OK-to-average players that everybody else wasn't after.

Who's doing more with less (other than maybe Butler)...and this quite possibly would have been his third Final Four, if Kenyon Martin (the NCAA Player of the Year) hadn't broken his leg right before the tournament, when Cincy was ranked #1 in the country, in 2000. If he wins it all this year, what's the difference between Huggins and Boeheim, as far as tournament success?

DBR does realize that Huggins is the 4th winningest active coach, behind K, Boeheim, and Calhoun, all of whom are older, been coaching longer, and have had the luxury of higher profile programs in higher profile leagues with which to bring in far higher quality players than Huggins has had at Akron (no league), Cincy (Metro, then Conference USA), then Kansas State (poor stepchild of the Big 12, when Huggins arrived), and West Virginia (nothing major accomplished since Jerry West graduated 51 years ago). I'll bet even K would like to see any of his former assistants have the success that Frank Martin has had at K-State (after Huggs revived that nearly ancient tradition of excellence there)... and Andy Kennedy ain't doing much worse at Ole Miss than Brey is at Notre Dame.

pfrduke
03-28-2010, 12:44 PM
I don't disagree with anything in your commentary on Huggins (other than to point out that Ebanks is also a likely 1st round NBA draft pick), but I can't for the life of me figure out why you're getting so worked up about who the site's owners think is or is not a good coach. What does it matter to you if DBR prefers Boeheim to Huggins?

Mudge
03-28-2010, 12:57 PM
I don't disagree with anything in your commentary on Huggins (other than to point out that Ebanks is also a likely 1st round NBA draft pick), but I can't for the life of me figure out why you're getting so worked up about who the site's owners think is or is not a good coach. What does it matter to you if DBR prefers Boeheim to Huggins?

'Cause they have a bully pulpit on the website's main page to influence lots of Duke basketball fans-- and they regularly employ that position to make ill-informed judgments about coaches from other schools, that are in no way supported by the actual facts on the ground. This often leads to a ground swell of Duke basketball fandom sentiment that can be every bit as ignorant and uninformed as the "Duke gets all the calls" theme is in another direction.

allenmurray
03-28-2010, 01:04 PM
'Cause they have a bully pulpit on the website's main page to influence lots of Duke basketball fans-- and they regularly employ that position to make ill-informed judgments about coaches from other schools, that are in no way supported by the actual facts on the ground. This often leads to a ground swell of Duke basketball fandom sentiment that can be every bit as ignorant and uninformed as the "Duke gets all the calls" theme is in another direction.

YOu know why they have a "bully pulpit"? It is their site. You could start your own site.

If DBR/SportsNation wants to say that Mary Poppins is the best basketball coach ever that is their right (though frankly I think that Bert-the-chimney-sweep) was a far better coach than Mary, but I'm not sure I'd spend a lot of time trying to convnice the internet world other wise).

DevilHorns
03-28-2010, 01:09 PM
After Huggins outcoached us to win in the tourney a few years back (yes, i will go there).... I have realized he is the real deal. He knows how to motivate his players. His players love him. Its very obvious he is a great communicator, and at least in the small set of games Ive seen him coach on tv, he's been solid as an in-game coach as well.

Mudge
03-28-2010, 01:18 PM
YOu know why they have a "bully pulpit"? It is their site. You could start your own site.

If DBR/SportsNation wants to say that Mary Poppins is the best basketball coach ever that is their right (though frankly I think that Bert-the-chimney-sweep) was a far better coach than Mary, but I'm not sure I'd spend a lot of time trying to convnice the internet world other wise).

Of course they can-- they can do whatever they want-- and they can choose to squelch dissent, if they so choose-- but until they do, I'm going to occasionally point out how wrong they've been about certain coaches over the years... and doing it here is lot less work (though admittedly also less effective) than starting my own site, which I have neither the time nor the inclination to do.

allenmurray
03-28-2010, 01:49 PM
After Huggins outcoached us to win in the tourney a few years back (yes, i will go there).... I have realized he is the real deal. He knows how to motivate his players. His players love him. Its very obvious he is a great communicator, and at least in the small set of games Ive seen him coach on tv, he's been solid as an in-game coach as well.

Motivating them to go to class or to graduate. OTOH . . .

BD80
03-28-2010, 02:51 PM
... When I say DBR, I am hardly referring to the great unwashed mass of posters on this bulletin board-- ...

Excuse me. A great many of us wash. It's not like we're all from West Virginia! :rolleyes:

sagegrouse
03-30-2010, 11:54 PM
Everyone who has posted on this thread today -- GO TO YOUR ROOMS! There is no point in endless bickering.

And BTW, you all missed a chance to discuss an ACC coach who was fired. Wasn't quality of ACC coaching the original purpose of the thread?

sagegrouse

devil84
03-31-2010, 12:06 AM
For those joining us late, more than a few posts have been deleted due to some verbal sparring (to which sagegrouse refers in his post, above).

Keep it civil and on topic, please.

DukeAppWV
03-31-2010, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
I think the point is: even the casual fans (who are generally more forgiving than the hardcore fans) don't think he's that great.

Well, now that you've set up a strawman, torn it down, and drawn a few responses, I'm not sure where this is going. How about we just rank the ACC coaches based on their overall coaching ability? Here's my list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Greenburg
4. Roy Williams
5. Hamilton
6. Bennett
7. Skinner
8. Purnell
9. Hewitt
10. Haith
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

If you disagree with any, please explain why instead of just saying I have my head in the sand.

------------------------------------------------
I do feel you have a couple out of place
1. K - no question
2/3 the Williams Boy - I give the edge to Gary because he has done more with less than Roy - we see this season if Roy doesn't have All-Americans he struggles
4-10 - I won't go with an exact order - just my observations -
----Haith - good young coach who has had only one top recruit yet his teams play with heart and passion to the very end - see this season's ACC tourney - He has NO homecourt advantage and according to the ACC head of officials - Miami has for 2 years gotten the worst calls/no calls, whatever (article on acc sports journal with Clougherty)
----Bennett - I believe has a chance to be a superstar coach - won at Wash State and should be able to get UVA back into the mix
----Purnell - think he does an excellent job at a football school located in the middle of nowhere - hope he gets that NO NCAA wins thing off his shoulders soon
----Greenburg - Way too high on your list - he plays the media and they love him thus creating this trivia question ---- THERE ARE ONLY 2 ACC BASKETBALL COACHES SELECTED COACH OF THE YEAR BY THE MEDIA WHO HAVE NOT TAKEN THEIR TEAMS TO THE NCAA TOURNAMENT THE YEAR OF SELECTION - WHO?
answer --------- That would be Seth Greenburg - TWICE
----Hamilton - I think he does a good job, he seems to always have a mix of outside shooters and inside power - probably as good as FSU can have - plus with that stare of his - man, I would give him my best effort
----Gaudio - I believe he has had problems handling kids who want to be NBA players first and Wake teammates second - not sure he isn't in over his head a little
----Lowe - puzzling to me because I felt he would be able to recruit better and coach better - I see Sid destined for a return to the NBA

11. Hewitt - Absolutely the worst coach in the conference - surely a great guy and great recruiter but year in and year out he has as much, if not more talent than anyone, and they continually underachieve - Have you ever seen GT run a set play on offense????
12. Skinner since he was just fired (although I think he was a better coach than some ahead of him)

El_Diablo
03-31-2010, 10:46 AM
Yeah...seems I got caught up in the early-season ACC success of Greenburg and Bennett a little bit. I still think they're good coaches though.

My amended list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Roy Williams
4. Greenburg
5. Hamilton
6. Purnell
7. Bennett
8. Haith
9. Skinner
10. Hewitt
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

This (subjective) list factors in mainly how good the coach is right now, with a little personal bias towards in-game coaching rather than recruiting. I think 1-3 are great overall coaches, 4-7 are good coaches, and 8-12 are mediocre or worse. Of course this is relatively speaking--they're all much better than I could do--but this is how I feel they stack up as ACC-caliber coaches. Had Roy not imploded this year, he'd be #2. But we can't ignore this season completely now, can we? ;)

Mudge
03-31-2010, 12:57 PM
Yeah...seems I got caught up in the early-season ACC success of Greenburg and Bennett a little bit. I still think they're good coaches though.

My amended list:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Gary Williams
3. Roy Williams
4. Greenburg
5. Hamilton
6. Purnell
7. Bennett
8. Haith
9. Skinner
10. Hewitt
11. Lowe
12. Gaudio

This (subjective) list factors in mainly how good the coach is right now, with a little personal bias towards in-game coaching rather than recruiting. I think 1-3 are great overall coaches, 4-7 are good coaches, and 8-12 are mediocre or worse. Of course this is relatively speaking--they're all much better than I could do--but this is how I feel they stack up as ACC-caliber coaches. Had Roy not imploded this year, he'd be #2. But we can't ignore this season completely now, can we? ;)

I am surprised (even with his firing) that Skinner (and Hewitt) fall so far below Bennett, Purnell, Haith, and Greenburg, on your list, especially as you emphasize their ACC and in-game credentials-- both of these guys have achieved things in the ACC that, at this point, Bennett, Purnell, Haith, and Greenburg can only dream about.

Ultrarunner
04-01-2010, 10:18 PM
I am surprised (even with his firing) that Skinner (and Hewitt) fall so far below Bennett, Purnell, Haith, and Greenburg, on your list, especially as you emphasize their ACC and in-game credentials-- both of these guys have achieved things in the ACC that, at this point, Bennett, Purnell, Haith, and Greenburg can only dream about.

I'd actually have tiers for the coaches:

1. Krzyzewski
2. Williams, Gary; Williams, Roy
3. Purnell, Bennett, Hamilton, Skinner
4. Lowe, Haith, Greenberg
5. Hewitt, Gaudio

Both Skinner and Hewitt have major holes in their programs that reflect a weakness in them as coaches.

In Skinner's case, he was reasonably adept at locating the "diamond in the rough" player that could grow into a solid ACC contributor. He was also a pretty decent game coach. The relative lack of talent was covered by solid play and a good work ethic on the court but effort only gets you so far hence the up and down seasons. His cardinal sin was likely that he wasn't able to do was create an exciting product that attracted fans and, in college ball, that is a very large sin indeed. Skinner's situation was somewhat similar to Herb Sendek as NCSU with similar results.

Hewitt is almost exactly the opposite. The man can really recruit. If he was half as good at coaching, his program would be a perenial top 10 program. Instead, it is in competition annually for the "team stupid" award - won by Dino and Wake this year, imho. In three decades of watching ACC basketball, I don't think I've ever watched a coach do so little with so much.

I would actually move Bennett up the list a bit more than others. I think he is a fine coach (I live in WSU country so I've had a couple of extra years to appreciate him) that will be very successful in a couple of years when he gets the players to run his program. Given the paucity of talent on the UVA squad this year, the man worked a minor miracle to get the wins he did.

The big eye-opener for me this season was the big dawg at Chapel Hill. Ol'Roy was just terrible at using the talent he had and that team has a ton of talent. He also did a lousy job and stepping up and taking responsibility for the team. Great recruiter but coaching...? I think I'll withhold judgment. Prior this year, I'd have rated him much higher.

Anyhow, enough on other coaches - there's a game coming Saturday and I need to get everything ready for the celebration.

El_Diablo
04-01-2010, 11:07 PM
Regarding Skinner:

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/mens_basketball/articles/2010/03/31/skinners_successful_boston_college_tenure_had_run_ its_course/

Bob Ryan gives him credit for what he had accomplished, but this is not a very flattering portrait of Skinner's personal work ethic. Apparently the recruiting of the "diamonds in the rough" was also largely attributable to asst. coach Bill Coen's efforts.

Yeah, he was like 7-9 in NCAA tournament games for his career, but he's also coming off two losing seasons in three years. I'm not impressed with where he's at right now. And apparently neither was the BC AD...