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wiscodevil
05-16-2007, 09:55 AM
Those suspensions are a joke!

Dukerati
05-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Agreed but it's not like Amare and Boris are devoid of any blame. The NBA is notorious for its stupidly rigid rules and Amare and Boris should've known better. As one of my heroes once said, "This is not 'Nam.... there are rules"

Chicago 1995
05-16-2007, 10:27 AM
Agreed but it's not like Amare and Boris are devoid of any blame. The NBA is notorious for its stupidly rigid rules and Amare and Boris should've known better. As one of my heroes once said, "This is not 'Nam.... there are rules"


Stupidly rigid rules -- except for when they apply to Bruce Bowen taking cheap shots at Suns players. Where's the suspension there?

Dukerati
05-16-2007, 10:39 AM
Stupidly rigid rules -- except for when they apply to Bruce Bowen taking cheap shots at Suns players. Where's the suspension there?

Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

wiscodevil
05-16-2007, 10:48 AM
Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

not sure about the specific fouls in this series, but there are some pretty damning compilations on youtube of bowen. He often steps in on a jumpshooter and steps on his foot as he is coming down. not cool.

i haven't seen every angle on the stoudamire/diaw suspension, but the one i saw they basically shot up off the bench ran a few feet and were restarined by teammates and coaches. was it worse than that?

Dukerati
05-16-2007, 11:18 AM
not sure about the specific fouls in this series, but there are some pretty damning compilations on youtube of bowen. He often steps in on a jumpshooter and steps on his foot as he is coming down. not cool.

i haven't seen every angle on the stoudamire/diaw suspension, but the one i saw they basically shot up off the bench ran a few feet and were restarined by teammates and coaches. was it worse than that?

Nope that was pretty much it. The rulebook though states that a player can not leave the bench area (I think it's demarcations are the sidelines and two feet past the bench) in the event of an altercation. The minimum penalty for this infraction is one game (I am going by precedent here not the rulebook).

The rule was enacted by the NBA as a sort of zero tolerance policy for bench-clearing brawls. It's akin to behavioral conditioning where the NBA doesn't want its players even thinking about leaving the bench during altercations. Obviously, you have seen the clip and know that Diaw and Stoudamire did no wrong. The rule needs to be revisited and amended but the sad fact is, the rule was there at the time of the event and it was enforced.

darthur
05-16-2007, 11:39 AM
He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

Nash just doesn't call people out for dirty play. The closest I have heard him come was in the heat of the moment right after game 4 when he said: "I understand he's frustrated, it happens, but he did bodycheck me." Having said that, it looked to me like the kick on Stoudemire was intentional and the knee to Nash was not.

Like everyone here, I think the suspensions were inevitable but were still absolutely terrible. If the Suns lose this series, I will be suprised if the rule isn't changed.

jkidd31
05-16-2007, 12:49 PM
Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

Amare missed seven minutes after the play he alleged Bowen stepped on his heel. He also did not come out and say anything about it until after he reviewd the game tapes. He's convinced it was intentional.

The other thing that bothered me is there are no clips of what the Spurs bench did. The unfortunate thing was the camera angle and the proximety to the Suns bench.

The big rumor here in Phoenix is D'Antoni is going to call Patrck Davidson and sign him to defend Duncan, given his history of stellar defense against Wake players.

Dukerati
05-16-2007, 01:36 PM
Amare missed seven minutes after the play he alleged Bowen stepped on his heel. He also did not come out and say anything about it until after he reviewd the game tapes. He's convinced it was intentional.

The other thing that bothered me is there are no clips of what the Spurs bench did. The unfortunate thing was the camera angle and the proximety to the Suns bench.

The big rumor here in Phoenix is D'Antoni is going to call Patrck Davidson and sign him to defend Duncan, given his history of stellar defense against Wake players.

Haha, with Patrick Patterson looking more and more like a Gator, I was actually about to start a rumor thread on the basketball board about how Lance Thomas gained 50 pounds this summer throwing pickup trucks against brick walls and was seen repeatedly swishing half court shots in practice. I need the legends of Davidson and Horvath to live on.

As for the Amare thing, to my understanding, Amare alleged that Bowen TRIED to step on his heel but was unsuccessful. When ESPN replayed the alleged incident, it showed Amare going up for a dunk and a running Bowen grazing the back of his heel as he tried to defend. That is my intepretation of the incident anyhow... which is why I am perplexed as to the bruhaha that has come up around him. For the record, I am not a Spurs fan. I want the Suns to win for my own viewing enjoyment but having watched the game, I think the Spurs are being physical not dirty.

darthur
05-16-2007, 06:10 PM
As for the Amare thing, to my understanding, Amare alleged that Bowen TRIED to step on his heel but was unsuccessful. When ESPN replayed the alleged incident, it showed Amare going up for a dunk and a running Bowen grazing the back of his heel as he tried to defend. That is my intepretation of the incident anyhow... which is why I am perplexed as to the bruhaha that has come up around him. For the record, I am not a Spurs fan. I want the Suns to win for my own viewing enjoyment but having watched the game, I think the Spurs are being physical not dirty.

Looks like an intentional kick to me:

http://ballhype.com/story/youtube_bruce_bowen_kicks_amare_stoudamire_1/

Also, Amare says Bowen DID kick him: "He kicked me purposely in the back of my Achilles."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/news/story?id=2866789

None of Bowen's plays have anything on the dirtiness of Horry's foul though, and I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Popovich later defended it: "It was just an end-of-game foul and Steve fell down".

jkidd31
05-16-2007, 07:21 PM
Side note. After Patrick Davidson shuts down Tim Duncan, he's walking up to Eva Longoria, where in turn she kisses him, looks at Tony Parker and shrugs "sorry" as they walk out to P Dav's Bentley.

Dukerati
05-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Looks like an intentional kick to me:

http://ballhype.com/story/youtube_bruce_bowen_kicks_amare_stoudamire_1/

Also, Amare says Bowen DID kick him: "He kicked me purposely in the back of my Achilles."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/news/story?id=2866789

None of Bowen's plays have anything on the dirtiness of Horry's foul though, and I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Popovich later defended it: "It was just an end-of-game foul and Steve fell down".

Good points Darthur. I still don't think the kick was intentional but I do think Bowen has done too many "dirty" things consistently to be considered a clean player. I do agree with you on the Popovich quote. I think it is damning that neither he nor Horry have publicly acknowledged any wrongdoing...

ScreechTDX
05-17-2007, 12:03 PM
Anyone else FURIOUS at how this suspension thig worked out.

As far as the NBA goes I always pull for the Suns. I just like the way they play and think Nash is the best true point EVER.

For the Spurs to get rewarded for Horry being freakin thug punk makes me so angry. It is also the main reason I don't watch the NBA - for the most part just horrible sportsmanship. One day these hard fouls are going to end someone's career.

I think the Spurs have played some of the dirtiest basketall i have ever seen to this point. I wish them the worst.:mad:

*venting*

phaedrus
05-17-2007, 12:30 PM
I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

thebur
05-17-2007, 12:50 PM
I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

I am a kind of closet Phoenix fan (from the Charles Barkley/Majerle/KJ days, Chuck was my favorite player growing up) but I agree that the Spurs (my in-laws team) are a great comparison to Duke in the league. They play that tough D and really get after it in the half court. They also do not take any slack, you don't hear about the Spurs getting into a lot of legal entanglements or even just conceited athlete situations in SA. When we got married there, the Spurs were in the playoffs and doing something at the Omni where we had the Rehearsal Dinner and people said they were very nice in person.

I do like the Spurs as well, but the JAZZ are my team in this playoffs, would love to see the Bulls out of the East, but I actually think Carlos could lead this team to the championship if they keep playing this well.

Dukiedevil
05-17-2007, 12:58 PM
I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

OK, you are a self admitted fan of the Spurs, so I'll take that into account. That said, how can you say that the Spurs aren't playing chippy in this series? The Spurs are the best defensive team in the league (with the Pistons not too terribly far behind), so they shouldn't have to resort to the chippy stuff. I think they are doing it intentionally just to get in the Suns head. They are accused of being dirty because thay have been playing that way. I've heard the argument that it's ok as long as you don't get called for it, but a couple of the things Bowen has done are just poor sportsmanship and is liable to get him punched one of these days.

Horry is by all accounts a classy guy, but what he did to Nash was uncalled for. I was disappointed to hear him say that he didn't think it was a big deal. He hit him out of frustration with intent to cause extra harm. he should have manned up and admitted he was wrong.

Nash is an incredible talent. I don't think it is unreasonable to put him on the list of all time greats. His floor vision is incredible. If you think he is just an above average player then you don't watch enough NBA either.

phaedrus
05-17-2007, 01:13 PM
OK, you are a self admitted fan of the Spurs, so I'll take that into account. That said, how can you say that the Spurs aren't playing chippy in this series? The Spurs are the best defensive team in the league (with the Pistons not too terribly far behind), so they shouldn't have to resort to the chippy stuff. I think they are doing it intentionally just to get in the Suns head. They are accused of being dirty because thay have been playing that way. I've heard the argument that it's ok as long as you don't get called for it, but a couple of the things Bowen has done are just poor sportsmanship and is liable to get him punched one of these days.

Horry is by all accounts a classy guy, but what he did to Nash was uncalled for. I was disappointed to hear him say that he didn't think it was a big deal. He hit him out of frustration with intent to cause extra harm. he should have manned up and admitted he was wrong.

Nash is an incredible talent. I don't think it is unreasonable to put him on the list of all time greats. His floor vision is incredible. If you think he is just an above average player then you don't watch enough NBA either.

i'll also have to admit that i've only watched one game this series (last night's). not my fault, i couldn't get satellite hooked up before then.

i don't know how you define chippy, but to continue with the duke analogy, playing great defense often means pressing the limits of the rules when it comes to contact. last night i saw a lot of physical play on both sides. to take advantage of an overused expression, i think that's just good playoff basketball.

regarding bowen, i'm sometimes dubious of his tactics (especially the sliding the feet under the shooter thing). this series, though, i think the media has overanalyzed a couple of plays that make him look especially dirty (much like happens to duke, too).

i didn't say nash wasn't great. i said he was below average on one full half of the court, that being the half of the court that the other team scores on. i agree he is a phenomenal offensive player. plus i'm canadian, so i'm obviously a fan.

MChambers
05-17-2007, 01:19 PM
I don't generally think the Spurs are dirty, but what Horry did merited a much longer suspension in my view. I would have ruled him out for the rest of the season.

No way he gets two games out and the Suns lose two players for one game each for leaving the bench.

If you say it's the rules, then the rules are stupid.

Of course, I remember McHale and Ainge putting cheaper, worse shots on Lakers 20 years ago, and the league didn't punish them adequately, either. One reason I rarely watch the NBA.

Kfanarmy
05-17-2007, 01:24 PM
For
the Spurs to get rewarded for Horry being freakin thug punk makes me so angry. It is also the main reason I don't watch the NBA - for the most part just horrible sportsmanship. One day these hard fouls are going to end someone's career.

I'm not a fan of either team, but I Couldn't agree more. Seems to be a bit of confusion about what the Spurs were: clean, strong defensive team and what they are right now in the playoffs: a worried team that has resorted to several dirty plays per game either out of frustration or to give them an edge. Most observors see Bowen as a complete Thug. After game 3 he should have been out of the playoffs, probably after the Denver series. Horry may have been a great player, but apparently was frustrated by his inability to get past the faster, smarter, better Suns players and in an instant became Cheap Shot Bob. Duncan must have ten uncalled fouls per game because he's a Superstar. They may win this series but it will be because of cheap shot Bob and Stu(pid) Jackson interpreting "immediate vicinity of the bench" as leaving your seat. One could argue they never left the immediate vicinity of the bench. Yeah the Spurs WERE a clean workman team...they ARE a dirty workover team.

Dukiedevil
05-17-2007, 01:47 PM
i'll also have to admit that i've only watched one game this series (last night's). not my fault, i couldn't get satellite hooked up before then.

i don't know how you define chippy, but to continue with the duke analogy, playing great defense often means pressing the limits of the rules when it comes to contact. last night i saw a lot of physical play on both sides. to take advantage of an overused expression, i think that's just good playoff basketball.

regarding bowen, i'm sometimes dubious of his tactics (especially the sliding the feet under the shooter thing). this series, though, i think the media has overanalyzed a couple of plays that make him look especially dirty (much like happens to duke, too).

i didn't say nash wasn't great. i said he was below average on one full half of the court, that being the half of the court that the other team scores on. i agree he is a phenomenal offensive player. plus i'm canadian, so i'm obviously a fan.

If you're a fan then I'm sorry you missed this series. Some of the best basketball you will see. It is awesome watching 2 teams with such contrasting styles and two excellent coaches duke it out. The big outcry about the chippiness has come since the league suspended Amare and Diaw for "leaving the vicinity of the bench". This has ruined the best series of the playoffs (with a nod to Dallas getting knocked off by the Warriors).

My complaint about Horry can be summed up by this quote from him

"I thought I'd just bump him a little bit," Horry said. "As you know, the great acting skills Steve has, when he hit the floor, then flopped and did 'Oh, I'm dying here' -- it happens. I really wasn't trying to hurt him. I had no malicious intent to hurt Steve. I like Steve. He's a good person."

Now, it looked like he hammed it up when he hit the floor, but in no way did he embellish flying into the scorers table. I'm dubious about his intent as well, but he claims he didn't mean it...

Last nights game was physical but not as chippy as it has been. I think it took too long for teams to figure each other out because of the altered lineups. A lot of open shots and layups last night because no one was used to the teams being on the floor. In fairness, most of complaints have been about Bowen's play and the ONE play by Horry as being chippy. So to say the whole team is chippy is a bit unfair. Manu's flopping (He always looks like he's been hit by a wrecking ball) and Duncan's horrified look after each foul get mentioned a lot too, but I think those are just annoying more than anything else.

darthur
05-17-2007, 02:48 PM
I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

These are some very strong statements from someone who admits he only watched one game of the series, especially since it was IMO the cleanest game so far (by a good margin).

ScreechTDX
05-17-2007, 03:57 PM
If the Spur win this series, I cannot legitmately credit it to their play as Punk Rob was the cause of a suspension that in all likelihood caused a Pheonix loss in Game 5.

It is a shame that such a good series was probably ruined by dirty play on the Spurs behlaf.

kramerbr
05-17-2007, 04:01 PM
Tim Duncan should of gotten suspended for leaving the bench. They bent the rule alot to justify not suspending him. However outside of the die-hard Suns/Spurs fans who is going to watch a playoff game without Amare, Diaw, and the great Tim Duncan?

Just out of curiousity what do you think Henderson would of got for a suspension in this series?

phaedrus
05-17-2007, 04:13 PM
These are some very strong statements from someone who admits he only watched one game of the series, especially since it was IMO the cleanest game so far (by a good margin).

I was speaking of the Spurs in general, not of the series. I realize now that the OP was doing the opposite, so it's true that my opinions don't necessarily contradict the OP's. Although this would entail the Spurs acting uncharacteristically throughout this series.

ScreechTDX
05-17-2007, 04:14 PM
Tim Duncan should of gotten suspended for leaving the bench. They bent the rule alot to justify not suspending him. However outside of the die-hard Suns/Spurs fans who is going to watch a playoff game without Amare, Diaw, and the great Tim Duncan?

Just out of curiousity what do you think Henderson would of got for a suspension in this series?

1 game...maybe.

cspan37421
05-17-2007, 10:49 PM
Did anyone hear David Stern on the Dan Patrick Show? He was a total jerk about it: smug, sarcastic, dismissive, insulting. But he was right, as far as suspending Stoudamire and Diaw. It's in the rulebook, and AFAIK his hands are tied.

I didn't see the game but if Duncan "left the bench during an on-court altercation" then he should have been gone too. For all of Stern's legalisms in defending the rule as inviolable, with no exceptions for "star players" or "a good series" etc., AFAIK there is also no exception for someone who "steps on the court just a little bit" or "just a few feet" instead of 20. So by Stern's own logic, if Duncan did even just a smidge, he should have been gone too.

If Stern thinks Duncan gets a pass b/c he didn't really go the 20-25 feet that Stoudamire did, then he's a hypocrite, tacitly conceding that there is some standard of reasonable judgement involved. And where do we then draw the line? One step toward the altercation? Two steps? 5 feet onto the court? 8 feet? Quite a slippery slope he has created.

phaedrus
05-17-2007, 11:19 PM
the rationale for not suspending duncan was actually not the distance he traveled from the bench, but that in duncan's case there wasn't an altercation. to me this is an even better allowance for a judgment call: why was one an altercation, but the other not? no punches were thrown in either case, nor was it close to happening. then again, i never saw the video of duncan's "non"-altercation.

mepanchin
05-18-2007, 01:59 AM
The problem isn't the ruling, it's the rule. The rule needs to allow for situations like this to happen. Phoenix's floor leader is body checked into the scorer's table. A good teammate's gut reaction should be to get up and move towards him if he looks hurt (which he did for a few seconds). I think the rule should read something like: "A bench player shall be suspended for 1 game if, during an altercation, he makes substantial progress towards contributing to the altercation." This would still prevent bench clearing brawls or even smaller fights even tangentially involving a bench player, but would protect situations like Amare and Diaw's the other day who basically just stood up, took a few steps, then stopped and went back to their seats without actually doing anything.

cf-62
05-18-2007, 09:23 AM
The problem isn't the ruling, it's the rule. The rule needs to allow for situations like this to happen. Phoenix's floor leader is body checked into the scorer's table. A good teammate's gut reaction should be to get up and move towards him if he looks hurt (which he did for a few seconds). I think the rule should read something like: "A bench player shall be suspended for 1 game if, during an altercation, he makes substantial progress towards contributing to the altercation." This would still prevent bench clearing brawls or even smaller fights even tangentially involving a bench player, but would protect situations like Amare and Diaw's the other day who basically just stood up, took a few steps, then stopped and went back to their seats without actually doing anything.

First, the league should not have suspended the two players.

If they DO suspend, which they did, they should have also suspended Duncan (and one other Spur -- sorry, don't know who) for the same infraction during the 1st half.

The league's stance on this has been laughable, not calling the first half fight an "altercation" thus making it okay to leave the bench.

HOWEVER, the anti-suspension crowd -- and Phoenix fans -- have to stop pretending like Amare and Boris were "going over to see how Nash was doing." They were on their way to defend their star against a goon play (I like Horry, but it seemed he was channeling the Warriors that play). And they didn't "go a few feet" either. They were well towards half court until the assistants corralled them. I don't blame them for the action. If anybody is to be blamed, it's the assistant coaches for not IMMEDIATELY turning and reminding the team to sit there. Everybody has a job, and that is one of theirs. They blew it.

In general, I don't like zero-tolerance rules, whether "drug" policies in schools (that result in students being suspended for sharing Advil), automatic suspension from a University for indictments or suspending a player for "leaving the bench area during an altercation." They will always punish those in the gray area, which takes reason and thought out of the punishment aspect -- very dangerous indeed.

And isn't it amusing that so many anti-Spurs fans think Bowen intentionally stepped on Amare's heel -- so they're claiming that he's intentionally trying to ruin somebody's career to prevent a score? COME ON!!! I wouldn't even attribute that behavior to Stephen Jackson, Baron Davis or Jason Richardson. If you look at the tape, he's not even looking at the heel -- sound familiar, Tarheel fans?

thebur
05-18-2007, 09:55 AM
Side note. After Patrick Davidson shuts down Tim Duncan, he's walking up to Eva Longoria, where in turn she kisses him, looks at Tony Parker and shrugs "sorry" as they walk out to P Dav's Bentley.

The mental image of the fans in Phoenix applauding P Davidson as he walks through the stands with Eva on his arm is making me chuckle in my office... I think I need to write a movie now, with your post as the basis.

jkidd31
05-18-2007, 11:47 AM
The mental image of the fans in Phoenix applauding P Davidson as he walks through the stands with Eva on his arm is making me chuckle in my office... I think I need to write a movie now, with your post as the basis.

I am all for keeping the legend of Patrick Davidson alive. Starting it at the practice where K tells him he needs him to shutdown Paul would be an ideal in the first couple of scenes.

darthur
05-18-2007, 12:16 PM
And isn't it amusing that so many anti-Spurs fans think Bowen intentionally stepped on Amare's heel -- so they're claiming that he's intentionally trying to ruin somebody's career to prevent a score? COME ON!!! I wouldn't even attribute that behavior to Stephen Jackson, Baron Davis or Jason Richardson. If you look at the tape, he's not even looking at the heel -- sound familiar, Tarheel fans?

a) Bowen isn't as dirty as Jackson, Davis or Richardson - he's far worse. Those guys are just emotional hot-heads who occasionally lose control and do something really dumb. Bowen, on the other hand, never loses his cool, which makes his dirtiness that much harder to condone. There is a reason he has been called out repeatedly and you never hear much about any of those other guys.

b) Nobody said Bowen was trying to injure Stoudamire. That would be dumb, because that would just ensure a suspension. Nobody knows for certain, but I would guess he was trying to get into Stoudamire's head and make him think twice before making that kind of dunk.

c) What do *you* think Bowen was trying to do there? There is nothing even remotely natural about that kind of foot sweep. The only other option I can think of is Bowen trying to get his foot under Stoudamire's, which is hardly better.

d) When the play is over, Bowen just turns and runs down court. If the kick was unintentional, shouldn't he have stopped to check on, or apologize to Stoudamire?

e) I am curious why you say Bowen wasn't looking down. The video I have shows him incline his head down towards his feet at the critical point. Unfortunately, its from behind so you can't see where his eyes are looking, but even so...

f) Why is this at all hard to believe? We are talking about the guy who repeatedly tries to undercut jump shooters right? How is a quick kick to the Achilles heel any different? See for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbEa38egC5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPQkEsM8uM

MChambers
05-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Points out how stupid the NBA looks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/18/AR2007051802092.html?tid=informbox

dukemsu
05-19-2007, 10:08 PM
Depending on how you view it, Bowen's either a hard-working scrapper or a dirty player who has found a niche due to his talent (yes, it's a talent) for repeatedly fouling players and not getting called.

For whatever reason, the officials consistently allowed Bowen to bang on Nash on virtually every possession. Nash didn't help himself any by looking to the refs on every call, but the officials' inability to control the series directly led to the incident in Game 4, which in turn ruined the series. The NBA has a ton of credibility issues with its officiating. The playoffs are officiated wildly differently than the season, and game to game calls vary way too much.

Not saying the Suns are championship caliber, because they have a lot of defensive deficiencies.

A Pistons-Spurs final would be great-the Pistons will hit the Spurs back, and may actually hit first. The Suns waited too long to respond. Someone should have simply put Ginobili into the basket stanchion and not offered to help them up. It would also be a contest to see who whines more to the officials-Rasheed or Duncan. If you believe their expressions, neither has ever committed an NBA foul.

dukemsu

darthur
05-20-2007, 02:58 AM
A Pistons-Spurs final would be great-the Pistons will hit the Spurs back, and may actually hit first. The Suns waited too long to respond. Someone should have simply put Ginobili into the basket stanchion and not offered to help them up. It would also be a contest to see who whines more to the officials-Rasheed or Duncan. If you believe their expressions, neither has ever committed an NBA foul.

I think you look for different stuff in basketball games than I do, although perhaps I detect a trace of sarcasm in your post =P.

Utah's the only team left that I particularly like watching. Boozer is awesome of course, but I also really like AK47, Deron Williams, and Dee Brown. If I hadn't been so worried about them going undefeated in '05, I probably would have loved that Illinois team.

cf-62
05-20-2007, 02:48 PM
Agreed dukemsu. The onus is on the officials to call the game properly. It is not a player's fault that they are not called for fouls when they commit handchecks and bumps. This isn't Ultimate Frisbee, where the actual intent of the rule is not to break it to begin with. We're talking playoff basketball.

There is a way to MAKE refs call every single infraction, but I find teams at all levels are loathe to do it. That is to play over the top aggressive -- to the point of starting fights. In a hyper-intense physical game, the refs have to get control back, which typically means calling touch fouls, which is exactly what Phoenix needed to get Bowen backed off of Nash.

But you see how the media has picked this up and -- even as they say "the Spurs aren't dirty," they twist events and words to imply that they are. I especially love calling it Tony Parker's fault that Steve Nash wasn't in Game 1 -- while saying "the headbutt wasn't intentional." Well, gosh darn it, I COMPLETELY DISAGREE! It was certainly intentional. Nash had no intent to get a steal. It was a 3 on 1 (or 2) break, and he was NOT going to let Parker have the chance to blow by him. So he committed a hard reach-in and hit Tony in the head. IT was unfortunate that Tony's head was harder than Nash's nose, and it stunk to watch a team lose like that as their leader is desperately trying to get patched up and get back in the game.

This is so "Duke gets all the calls," it sickens me to see it -- even in the favor of the team I was rooting for -- Phoenix.

OH BY THE WAY, I wonder how coincidental it is that a team from Arizona lost in the championships only to have the media cry foul.

Hmmmm


Depending on how you view it, Bowen's either a hard-working scrapper or a dirty player who has found a niche due to his talent (yes, it's a talent) for repeatedly fouling players and not getting called.

For whatever reason, the officials consistently allowed Bowen to bang on Nash on virtually every possession. Nash didn't help himself any by looking to the refs on every call, but the officials' inability to control the series directly led to the incident in Game 4, which in turn ruined the series. The NBA has a ton of credibility issues with its officiating. The playoffs are officiated wildly differently than the season, and game to game calls vary way too much.

Not saying the Suns are championship caliber, because they have a lot of defensive deficiencies.

A Pistons-Spurs final would be great-the Pistons will hit the Spurs back, and may actually hit first. The Suns waited too long to respond. Someone should have simply put Ginobili into the basket stanchion and not offered to help them up. It would also be a contest to see who whines more to the officials-Rasheed or Duncan. If you believe their expressions, neither has ever committed an NBA foul.

dukemsu