Why was Coach P such an unpopular choice at the time?

[JaMarcus Russell]

I posted something about this on TDD, but it was deleted. When I asked the moderators why, they said it had been discussed several times, and they didn't feel like having another thread on the subject matter even though it didn't violate any of the rules. Still, I didn't really get an answer to my questions, and I hope this post doesn't get deleted here, either.

I remember when Coach G left in 2007, Coach McCallie didn't seem to be the top choice. If I remember correctly, a lot of people wanted Joanne Boyle at Cal instead, but she turned down the job. Why was she a more popular choice than Coach P? It doesn't seem like she has a similar resume. Was it because of her experience as Duke player and coach?

Also, I have read a lot of criticism of Coach P, especially last year and at the start of this year. One of the biggest complaints was that she wasn't bringing in elite talent. With the 2010 class and the first couple of commitments in 2011, it would be hard to argue that another coach is recruiting as well as her in all of women's college basketball.

And while the team certainly had a disappointing second round loss last year in the NCAA Tournament, they bounced back with a very strong 2009-10 regular season and ACC Tournament. Ultimately her success will be measured by Sweet 16s, Final 4s, and ACC Championships, but has the team's recent performance alleviated concerns about her?

And why were there so many concerns about her to begin with? Based on the number of complaints, you would have thought the team was going 15-15 and finishing in the middle of the ACC, and that certainly wasn't the case.

[-bdbd]

Coach P had a tough act to follow, and the expectation for Duke WBB were high. Boyle was considered desirable for her "in house" Duke background. Coach be WAS named WBB National Coach of the year a year earlier, and had done some very good things at MSU. One concern was that her preferred style of play didn't match the previous one, and so some players were initially an awkward fit. Her initial difficulty in recruiting didn't help, and we were an unexpected early departure in the NCAA. Certainly disappointing. She seems to be making a big impact on recruiting now. It is looking much better.

[jimsumner]

I think there was some guilt-by-association working here. There was a perception that Joe Alleva didn't work hard enough to keep Goestenkors and disparaged her body of work after she left. Remember, Alleva didn't make a lot of friends for a number of hires, the lake incident and the lacrosse fall out, although in the latter case, I think the major decisions were made higher up the food chain.

Then Alleva couldn't bring Boyle on board. An alum. So, two strikes for Alleva. So, by the time McCallie comes in, she's viewed as fallback choice made by an unpopular AD who doesn't know what he's doing. So, how good could she be?

Then there are style differences between the Big Ten and the ACC and personality differences between Goestenlors and McCallie. And other stuff.

Remember Goestenkors' last Duke team was undefeated until the ACC Tournament. There was no way that losing a coach at the peak of her career was going to be smooth or painless. And it wasn't.

[JaMarcus Russell]

It just seems a little strange to me that a coach who had been the National Coach of the Year and had brought a non-traditional power to a championship game could be regarded as a fall-back choice.

Jim, I agree that there are definitely different styles of play in the ACC and Big 10, and there are often some growing pains, but relatively speaking, it hasn't been too noticeable in the team's record. I have heard there are some differences in the personalities of Goestenkors and McCallie, but I can't say that I know too much about the specifics.

[dukelifer]

I posted something about this on TDD, but it was deleted. When I asked the moderators why, they said it had been discussed several times, and they didn't feel like having another thread on the subject matter even though it didn't violate any of the rules. Still, I didn't really get an answer to my questions, and I hope this post doesn't get deleted here, either.

I remember when Coach G left in 2007, Coach McCallie didn't seem to be the top choice. If I remember correctly, a lot of people wanted Joanne Boyle at Cal instead, but she turned down the job. Why was she a more popular choice than Coach P? It doesn't seem like she has a similar resume. Was it because of her experience as Duke player and coach?

Also, I have read a lot of criticism of Coach P, especially last year and at the start of this year. One of the biggest complaints was that she wasn't bringing in elite talent. With the 2010 class and the first couple of commitments in 2011, it would be hard to argue that another coach is recruiting as well as her in all of women's college basketball.

And while the team certainly had a disappointing second round loss last year in the NCAA Tournament, they bounced back with a very strong 2009-10 regular season and ACC Tournament. Ultimately her success will be measured by Sweet 16s, Final 4s, and ACC Championships, but has the team's recent performance alleviated concerns about her?

And why were there so many concerns about her to begin with? Based on the number of complaints, you would have thought the team was going 15-15 and finishing in the middle of the ACC, and that certainly wasn't the case.

yes- G was viewed as an excellent recruiter and P was not- But it is interesting that now both have settled in- P is now getting top 10 talent and G is struggling. Three of the top 10 recruits for next year are from TX and none went to Texas. She got 1 from TX in 2009. P got 2 of the top 10 this year and 1 locked up for the year after.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncw/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncw %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010

[David]

yes- G was viewed as an excellent recruiter and P was not- But it is interesting that now both have settled in- P is now getting top 10 talent and G is struggling. Three of the top 10 recruits for next year are from TX and none went to Texas. She got 1 from TX in 2009. P got 2 of the top 10 this year and 1 locked up for the year after.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncw/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2010&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncw %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 010

Based on Dukelifer's observation, one potential conclusion is that it is easier to recruit top talent at Duke relative to Mich St or Texas. I am not trying to imply that any coach could recruit top talent to Duke (both Coach G and Coach P deserve much credit), but to date, the common thread in G and P's recruiting success is Duke.

That said, it will be interesting to see where Coach G has Texas in another 5 years or so. The cupboard was pretty bare when she took over the program and these turnarounds take time...

[SlimSlowSlider]

I also recall a lot of gnashing of the teeth about picking P over the coach of Marquette. There was a very vocal segment of this board that liked the Marquette coach, and seemed to be on P's case from the get-go.

[SCMatt33]

Based on Dukelifer's observation, one potential conclusion is that it is easier to recruit top talent at Duke relative to Mich St or Texas. I am not trying to imply that any coach could recruit top talent to Duke (both Coach G and Coach P deserve much credit), but to date, the common thread in G and P's recruiting success is Duke.

That said, it will be interesting to see where Coach G has Texas in another 5 years or so. The cupboard was pretty bare when she took over the program and these turnarounds take time...

As far as recruiting goes, I think some of the things that can sometimes hurt Duke in football and sometimes MBB, being a private academically inclined institution, help immensely in other sports. There is just not enough money to be made in women's basketball for 95% of the people who make the pro's let alone all of the college players to be set for life. The value of the degree can be a much bigger factor in non-revenue generating sports, as well as WBB, which is somewhere in the middle money-wise.

As for the Coach P thing, specifically, I think all of the factors mentioned played a role, but I think there was mostly a sense of shock. Just over a year before Coach G left, Duke was 10 seconds from its first national title. That was followed by an undefeated regular season that generated more excitement for the program than had ever been experience before. I think I remember both the Maryland and UNC games were sellouts, and they had a ton of TV games, including the game at Tennessee, which started with a 19-0 Duke run. They were the runaway favorites for the title with a path to the final four that went through Raleigh, then Greensboro. And even after a terrible game against Rutgers, Lindsey Harding, one of only two players with a retired jersey, was standing at the line with a chance to keep it going. After all of that, Coach G leaves when everyone assumed that we had a good chance to keep her. I think there was a lot of shock and when we couldn't get our absolute first choice to replace her, there was destined to be a lot of scrutiny pointed at whomever was ultimately hired.

[sagegrouse]

Based on Dukelifer's observation, one potential conclusion is that it is easier to recruit top talent at Duke relative to Mich St or Texas. ..

It probably is. In men's basketball the allure of the NBA may trump other economic concerns. In women's hoops, it doesn't: the salary cap for an entire WNBA team is $803 thousand for 2010, less than the veteran's minimum for a single player in the NBA. Therefore, success stories like Abby Waner, who is now on TV, carries a lot of water, as does the general academic reputation at Duke.

sagegrouse

[Wander]

There were also some pains in regards to two of our most popular players, the Waners. It never seemed quite right how Emily left the team, and if I'm remembering correctly Abby's stats really suffered in P's system.

[diablesseblu]

http://www.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/stories/030907aak.html

Did not think this boded well for Duke. Saw it as Alleva's possibly not having done his due diligence on her.

[grossbus]

"Abby's stats really suffered in P's system."

abby could not hit the shots she hit the prior two years. at the start of her jr. year she suffered a bad ankle sprain and then got fool poisoning/flu on christmas break. she never really recovered her shot.

spilled on over to her senior year. some complain that it was the lack of screens, but the reality is she got plenty of open shots, had the green light to shot whenever she wanted to and threw up bricks.

towards the end of her senior year, it seemed as if she were auditioning for Sportscenter's Top 10 plays as she would attempt spectacular passes that worked only sometimes.

some of those same complainers predicted she would do great in the WNBA once "freed" from P's system. right.

[David]

and then got fool poisoning/flu on christmas break.

I liked your typo - I guess she didn't suffer fools well.

[miramar]

Even with all the Alleva spillover and the fact she was not the first choice, I think there was a lot of initial goodwill towards McCallie. She came in, said the right things, and everything seemed fine. The general impression was that Coach G took the team really far, but that McCallie would finish the job. After all, if she got to the Final Four with limited talent, just think of what she would do with the players at Duke.

Unfortunately, the first year there were some serious personality conflicts with the team, which affected the coach's image among the undergraduates. Emily Waner left the team under difficult circumstances, and it seemed to affect Abby psychologically during her remaining two years.

The grind-it-out style was also not well received, which meant that students stopped showing up for games. In fact, you can see on TV that the stands are full of families, which is great, but you don't see too many Crazies out there.

So the general perception was that the coaches did not treat the players as well as before, the team's play was uninspiring, and that WBB was good but no longer one of the marquee teams in the country. For the first two years the postseason results and the skimpy recruiting pointed to a potential decline in the program.

Obviously recruiting has picked up dramatically for next year, and the team has the chance to make some real noise this year in the NCAAs, so all of this can be fixed.

[SlimSlowSlider]

Even with all the Alleva spillover and the fact she was not the first choice, I think there was a lot of initial goodwill towards McCallie.

My recollection is not quite the same. I recall a vocal contingent on here (or possibly The Devil's Den) who were livid that the Marquette coach was not hired. I don't think P was given the benefit of the doubt by any of them, initially. I won't name names (to the extent I can remember them), but I cannot believe others do not recall the tsunami of negativity immediately after the hire was announced.

I just checked, and Marquette finished 16-15 this year. Their coach is Terri Mitchell, who I believe was the same coach certain posters were advocating.

[Devilsfan]

Personality, treatment of the Warners, picked by Joe, not a member of the "family" which other than Coach Cutt (spectacular addition) and Kevin White had not been the best of picks since 2004 by the board, and the Ucoon game performance this year in "our house". But I guess she is proving us wrong the longer she is in the job. Nice ACC Tournament and pick up in Henson.

[Mike Corey]

Regardless of the past--bygones being what they are and all that--she is now Duke's coach, and she and her staff are doing their best to develop the program to be their own, and not Coach G's. She was by no means a carbon copy of Coach G, and as a result of that, Jamarcus, I think a lot of people were reluctant to get excited--or to be supportive of--Coach P. People absolutely loved Coach G (confession: I did too, and still do). As has been noted above, the circumstances surrounding her displacement to Texas rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, so even if Coach G had been replaced with Pat Summit, people would have been upset, IMO.

One of the big knocks against Coach P initially was her expressed dislike of recruiting. But as the past few months have shown, the system Coach P employs (delegation of powers...sorry, I'm a law student) is surely working. The haul she's putting together is, quite frankly, as impressive on paper as any Coach G brought in...and Coach G was one helluva recruiter while at Duke. The trick will be sustaining the success, and having it show up in the postseason, too. Easier said than done, but surely something Coach P is capable of doing (and has done at a major school already...at Duke, however, the expectations are higher externally...and internally, too.)

Coach P is dedicated to Duke and to doing well. Regardless of the past, it seems as if Coach P has things going in the direction she wants.

The ACC was down this year as a women's basketball conference; but like the better programs do, Duke took care of business, despite some hiccups along the way.

Progress does not require perfection. So far, Coach P's time at Duke has demonstrated plenty of progress. Here's hoping the Duke women take another positive step or two in the upcoming tournament.

[Capn Poptart]

I think there was some guilt-by-association working here. There was a perception that Joe Alleva didn't work hard enough to keep Goestenkors and disparaged her body of work after she left.


This.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I've written Coach P and will repeat what I wrote her, I love that she does not have that deer in the headlights look that Coach G had when things aren't going well. We all have our faults. I was a big fan of Coach G, but when her teams faced adversity she seemed to go into this catatonic state that infuriated me. It made me want to throw something at the t.v. and raised my blood pressure. I wanted to see fire spewing from her when things went wrong. In short, I wanted to see a fighter.

I feel comforted when things aren't going well on the men's side of the equation and Coach K gets angry and does his thing. I feel with Coach P we get a coach who certainly does not go into a shell when things go wrong. I feel comforted that she is the leader doing her thing.

Getting back to the initial question--I think Coach P was unpopular choice because she wasn't Coach G and wasn't a part of the "Duke family." I too wanted Coach Boyle (mainly because I knew her). However, I am really glad we got new blood. I am very happy with Coach P. (I am about to eat a bit of crow) I actually think she is a better choice than Coach Boyle. Coach Boyle has some past memories of Duke, like that I think she almost died while at Duke, that probably make her uncomfortable being at the Gothic Wonderland. Coach P really wants to be here and that counts for a lot.

GO DUKE!

[jtelander]

The grind-it-out style was also not well received, which meant that students stopped showing up for games. In fact, you can see on TV that the stands are full of families, which is great, but you don't see too many Crazies out there.


I think this is an important point and worth repeating.

I stopped attending because it wasn't fun to watch.

[stillcrazie]

I don't remember seeing too many crazies at games under Coach G either, except for special games like UNC, TN, Maryland.

I hope students start showing up -- this team had some great home wins, e.g. vs. Ohio State, UNC, Maryland, and was very fun to watch! Next year's should be even better.

[CameronBlue]

The jury's not entirely "in" for me but at this juncture I'm pleased with the results and ecstatic over the recruiting. This year Duke has struggled offensively in ways that a veteran team shouldn't. Ball movement and positioning on offense have been sorely lacking at times. But while I'd love a little finesse and nuance, the grind it out style has its own inherent beauty in the mental toughness it demands. Uninspired, unfocused players usually aren't able to muster the necessary energy and effort; P clearly has the team's attention IMO and they've bought into her defensive philosophy. The team ethic she instills was no more apparent than during the UConn game when Duke had every reason to quit in the second half. A blowout of VT and a tough one point win over Md on the road followed.

Duke lost a lot in Black, Gay and Waner last year and with P's preference for a 8-9 woman rotation it's not surprising that it's taken some time for players to fully understand their roles. What the team accomplishes in the NCAAs this year and how the offense develops next year will give a good indication of whether P can bag the big one.

Finally there was a lot of board discussion--almost by definition of questionable validity--that G was miffed over the preferential treatment accorded the men's team. I only know Coach P from a distance, save that one time I spoke with her briefly at Jason's Deli (she's a fan of 3 bean salad) but she doesn't strike me as one to be distracted by real or imagined political slights. The ability to focus on the job at hand could be one reason we haven't seen the deer in the headlights look. I like where Duke is headed under this coach.

[Kfanarmy]

The new coach has done an admirable job in getting to the ACC Championship. I liked Coach G, I thought the Duke team under her leadership was both winning and exciting. I do not hold it against her for "not winning the big one," but Believe she would have remained near the top of WBB as long as she was at Duke. I disagreed strongly with her speaking to UT during the NCAATourney, and believe that there is some Karma going on as she struggles to pull UT up to the top.

Coach P has established her system at Duke. She did however, immediately ostracize the star players on her first team. She wanted the to focus primarily on Defense, while the team was built to play O. Ultimately she imposed her system...her right as coach, but it was painful to watch.

I personally think it is very, very difficult to win an NCAA championship when you focus on defense, over offense, to the degree Coach P does. Ultimately the game is won by having more points on the board at the end of the game than the other team does, right? So, in WBB especially where there is still a vast difference in talent between a say a 1 seed and a 3 seed, you can seem really efficient on defense during the year until you play someone with equal or better talent who has a more balanced Defense-Offensive strategy. When that happens and the Duke players have to score efficiently to keep up with another team, I believe they are lost. Just my perspective, but until the offense begins to look like it has a strategy, I don't think they can win the big one. Frankly, as someone else posted, it is not fun to watch the Duke WBB team at this point hold both themselves and the opponent scoreless on so many possessions.

[Indoor66]

The new coach has done an admirable job in getting to the ACC Championship. I liked Coach G, I thought the Duke team under her leadership was both winning and exciting. I do not hold it against her for "not winning the big one," but Believe she would have remained near the top of WBB as long as she was at Duke. I disagreed strongly with her speaking to UT during the NCAATourney, and believe that there is some Karma going on as she struggles to pull UT up to the top.

Coach P has established her system at Duke. She did however, immediately ostracize the star players on her first team. She wanted the to focus primarily on Defense, while the team was built to play O. Ultimately she imposed her system...her right as coach, but it was painful to watch.

I personally think it is very, very difficult to win an NCAA championship when you focus on defense, over offense, to the degree Coach P does. Ultimately the game is won by having more points on the board at the end of the game than the other team does, right? So, in WBB especially where there is still a vast difference in talent between a say a 1 seed and a 3 seed, you can seem really efficient on defense during the year until you play someone with equal or better talent who has a more balanced Defense-Offensive strategy. When that happens and the Duke players have to score efficiently to keep up with another team, I believe they are lost. Just my perspective, but until the offense begins to look like it has a strategy, I don't think they can win the big one. Frankly, as someone else posted, it is not fun to watch the Duke WBB team at this point hold both themselves and the opponent scoreless on so many possessions.

I don't necessarily agree with your Offense over Defense analysis, but I am willing to give Coach P the requisite time to recruit her players and install her system.

It appears to me that she is recruiting players who manifest quality defensive abilities plus are able to score (see A. V.). If she continues to do this, she will be very successful.

Recruiting women to Duke gives her a platform that will provide the basis for success if she can follow through with what appears to be her plan.

[miramar]

I personally think it is very, very difficult to win an NCAA championship when you focus on defense, over offense, to the degree Coach P does. Ultimately the game is won by having more points on the board at the end of the game than the other team does, right? So, in WBB especially where there is still a vast difference in talent between a say a 1 seed and a 3 seed, you can seem really efficient on defense during the year until you play someone with equal or better talent who has a more balanced Defense-Offensive strategy. When that happens and the Duke players have to score efficiently to keep up with another team, I believe they are lost. Just my perspective, but until the offense begins to look like it has a strategy, I don't think they can win the big one. Frankly, as someone else posted, it is not fun to watch the Duke WBB team at this point hold both themselves and the opponent scoreless on so many possessions.

When 35% of your offense is generated by your defense, that means the team scores when it is producing lots of turnovers and turning them into easy points. Because of the talent differential in WBB, that is much harder to do when you face another strong team, especially one with experienced guards (something similar to what happened to John Thompson's 1988 Olympic team).

Duke has improved its half court offense this year, with better ball movement and fewer turnovers, but its success in the tournament will depend on how well they react to talented teams that know how to protect the ball. We should obviously feel confident about the first weekend in Cameron, but the second weekend will be the real challenge. I think that there is certainly cause for optimism this season, but on the other hand the offense should not be an issue three years in. Fortunately, help is on the way.

[jimsumner]

If one looks at the recruits coming in next season, it seems that McCallie understands the value of bringing in some shooters.

[stillcrazie]

The first couple of years under Coach P I was skeptical, but she won me over this year. I wish she gave a better interview, but that is less of a concern to me than her recruiting and in-game coaching. I have been a bit disappointed by all the fans who have seemed more loyal to Coach G than to the program, but hopefully they (and the students) will come around. And I agree that the next few years will be especially telling in terms of developing an offense to match the defensive intensity. I see nothing but positives going forward.

[killerleft]

The new coach has done an admirable job in getting to the ACC Championship. I liked Coach G, I thought the Duke team under her leadership was both winning and exciting. I do not hold it against her for "not winning the big one," but Believe she would have remained near the top of WBB as long as she was at Duke. I disagreed strongly with her speaking to UT during the NCAATourney, and believe that there is some Karma going on as she struggles to pull UT up to the top.

Coach P has established her system at Duke. She did however, immediately ostracize the star players on her first team. She wanted the to focus primarily on Defense, while the team was built to play O. Ultimately she imposed her system...her right as coach, but it was painful to watch.

I personally think it is very, very difficult to win an NCAA championship when you focus on defense, over offense, to the degree Coach P does. Ultimately the game is won by having more points on the board at the end of the game than the other team does, right? So, in WBB especially where there is still a vast difference in talent between a say a 1 seed and a 3 seed, you can seem really efficient on defense during the year until you play someone with equal or better talent who has a more balanced Defense-Offensive strategy. When that happens and the Duke players have to score efficiently to keep up with another team, I believe they are lost. Just my perspective, but until the offense begins to look like it has a strategy, I don't think they can win the big one. Frankly, as someone else posted, it is not fun to watch the Duke WBB team at this point hold both themselves and the opponent scoreless on so many possessions.

I don't necessarily disagree with much of your post. But it is perhaps enlightening and heartening to realize that many of these same criticisms were leveled at Coach K early in his Duke career. And both took about the same amount of time before they could recruit a monster class.

[Verga3]

If one looks at the recruits coming in next season, it seems that McCallie understands the value of bringing in some shooters.

Agreed, for sure. And you can bet that Coach P knows it. You can also bet that she will continue to focus on Duke D. If one anecdotely looks at this years team's performance on the offensive end, it was pretty evident that a lot of our offense and a ton of our confidence came from playing agressive defense and converting on the other end. Add more shooters to that and we will hang some more banners.

Congrats to our coach and out team on being ACC Champs.....and on to the NCAA. We can go far.

[coachbob]

Offense wins games.
Defense wins Championships.