How to get Mason going

[Osiagledknarf]

I am beginning to really get frustrated with Mason. He has had two real good games this season and really has been average to below average in the others. Those two games I noticed that they put him on the post. I think going forward, Mason needs to be put on the post not out in the 15 foot plus range is where we seem to see him a lot.

I think we need to do this to get him going. Thoughts?

[DukeUsul]

It's going to be really hard for Mason to get too many minutes in the post the way Zoubek and Thomas have been dominating on defense and on the boards.

[greybeard]

I'd have to think that both would do very well in a high-low configuration.

However, conventional hi-low play--two man ball between them (the high guy catching and looking to fed the low, either behind the defender if he fronts, or in front if the defender protects the basket), having them set screens for one another, having them rotate to make receptions--is incompatible with the principal role Duke's bigs play in the offense, which is setting screens for the big three.

How to get either in the flow in the current set, which has Mason and Lance playing high but not on the foul line, I think might best be cracked by my previous suggestion. You get the older brother some baskets, the team's leaders make that a priority and commit to succeeding, I think is the best chance to jump start both of them. If Miles gets going, his kid brother just might follow.

This is just a guess. Tough problem.

[CrazieDUMB]

I am beginning to really get frustrated with Mason. He has had two real good games this season and really has been average to below average in the others. Those two games I noticed that they put him on the post. I think going forward, Mason needs to be put on the post not out in the 15 foot plus range is where we seem to see him a lot.

I would say that's not a very accurate use of the word average. Maybe, at this point in his career, he's just not that good. He hasn't been able to fully develop his talents and athleticism.

As for working in the post, it's tough for our offense to run two real post players, and given Z's production down low let's just be happy we've got one guy that can do the job.

Mason will come along, I just doubt it's going to happen significantly this year; he will, however, give us some decent production for a bench player. I hope I'm wrong and he becomes a beast, but that may be a year or two away.

[CDu]

Mason hasn't really shown any back-to-the-basket game to this point. If anything, he's looked much more comfortable getting the ball 15+ feet from the basket and attacking from there. So I don't think that dumping the ball to him in the post is a great idea. By contrast, Zoubek is much more comfortable catching it with his back to the basket.

Ultimately, I don't know that there's really a sure-fire way to "get Mason going" this year. He's fairly raw offensively. I think the bigger thing is to get him to understand where to be on the floor (offensively and defensively) and to stop fouling so much. But at this point, I think his major offensive contributions this season are going to come off of offensive rebounds, pick and rolls, and breakaways. That's not a bad thing - he can be a real difference-maker in that way.

[DukeUsul]

If I were to try to get Mason more offensive touches, I'd utilize him in the screen and roll. Scheyer passing to him as he rolls off a pick cutting to the basket might be the best way to "make a shot" for him. And it puts him in the face-to-the-basket situation he seems more comfortable in.

[Jderf]

I agree that Mason could probably use a few pick n roll plays designed to set him up for easy buckets. But personally, I'd say the thing Mason needs most is time. He is still a freshman and while the potential is obviously there, he needs this off-season with the coaching staff to work on polishing his game (learning where he needs to be on defense, footwork, stop reaching, etc.). Only then will he see a huge increase in playing time and thereby increase in production (more awareness, more savvy, etc.).

That's not knocking his contributions this season; I think he's been great. (Remember that reverse dunk vs UNC that completely turned the game around?) I'm just saying that the biggest strides we're going to see will be between this season and next season and not right before March (see: Miles Plumlee).

[Grta]

I was disappointed in all the freshmen. They missed all their shots. 0 for 7 I think!

[oldnavy]

I was disappointed in all the freshmen. They missed all their shots. 0 for 7 I think!

Be patient with these guys. They are all going to develop into impact players. The shots I have seen that they have missed were for the most part good shots. Andre for one had a very good look in the corner, but didn't seem to get set and it missed a little to the left, he also had one that went in and came back out from close range. I believe that has to do with the pace of his game. He is running a little hot right now and will slow down with more experience. Mason, pretty much the same. Very few what I would call bad shots. For comparisom, look at Zeller at UNC. Zeller throws up some really stupid shots. Our boys shots are, for the most part good shots within the flow of the offense. I do think they rush a little, but that is easily fixable as they get more and more PT. Ryan, has a beautiful shooting stroke, and again with more time, he will be an impact player.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I am beginning to really get frustrated with Mason. He has had two real good games this season and really has been average to below average in the others. Those two games I noticed that they put him on the post. I think going forward, Mason needs to be put on the post not out in the 15 foot plus range is where we seem to see him a lot.

I think we need to do this to get him going. Thoughts?

Mason is a freshman. Big men are notoriously slow to develop. He's got to follow his own learning curve. I'm willing to be patient because he's working hard and learning as the season progresses.

[duke=legacy]

Ryan would have had the dunk yesterday if he hadn't been fouled (with no call).

[roywhite]

A few points on Mason and the freshmen:

The usual difficult transition for freshmen to a high level program like Duke has been even harder for Mason (broken wrist) and Andre (late enrollment, not part of summer program, family tragedy).

The outstanding play of upperclassmen has put them ahead of freshmen in the rotation. Honestly, Lance and Brian are exceeding expectations.

Tournament time, especially the ACC Tournament, is often a time where a freshman can play a key role in a game or two.

All three of our freshmen can be excellent players; hard work and continued development is the key.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ryan would have had the dunk yesterday if he hadn't been fouled (with no call).
How that was not called a foul is a mystery to me.

Miles has a couple of nice buckets yesterday, which was nice to see. Mason missed another ally-oop dunk, hitting the rim. At least it was the inside of the rim this time :) I don't know whether they (the Plumlees) are rushing the dunks or if they are nervous or if there is something else bothering them when they try to dunk, but it sure would help if they could get those through the net for a score.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Mason is a freshman. Big men are notoriously slow to develop. He's got to follow his own learning curve. I'm willing to be patient because he's working hard and learning as the season progresses.


They're slow to develop unless your name is DeMarcus Cousins. Even Greg Monroe had some growing pains last year! Anyways, I have been disappointed, but I am slowly learning to be patient with Mason (not so much Andre). With so many big guys in our rotation, 2 of them being seniors, I think it is difficult for him to progress like we all want him to. Look at Cole Aldrich! His freshman year was so similar to Mason this year and Cole didn't miss a chunk of time with a wrist injury. Cole didn't foul as much as Mason, but his minutes, points, and rebounds were quite similar. We'll see progress from Mason, just not this year. I see no reason why Mason can't develop a good all-around offensive game as soon as he learns how to take contact.

[Devilsfan]

Good point about Monroe. He has really come on this year and I finally see what our staff saw two years ago. Mason is similar to McRob but I think will be alot better maybe by next year. I hope Ryan is another Zoubeck and develops in a year or two. He would of had a dunk last night if he were stronger and quicker regardless of the fact that he was fouled. I hope he has the meaness (toughness) to play inside in the ACC. The strength will come.

[OldPhiKap]

A few points on Mason and the freshmen:

The usual difficult transition for freshmen to a high level program like Duke has been even harder for Mason (broken wrist) and Andre (late enrollment, not part of summer program, family tragedy).

The outstanding play of upperclassmen has put them ahead of freshmen in the rotation. Honestly, Lance and Brian are exceeding expectations.

Tournament time, especially the ACC Tournament, is often a time where a freshman can play a key role in a game or two.

All three of our freshmen can be excellent players; hard work and continued development is the key.

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

The point about the ACC tourney is especially important as we will (hopefully) have three games in three days followed by a NCAA game on Thursday or Friday. I think you will see a lot of minutes for these guys, and a great opportunity to step it up for the final push.

But all the points above are worth re-reading.

[theAlaskanBear]

They're slow to develop unless your name is DeMarcus Cousins. Even Greg Monroe had some growing pains last year! Anyways, I have been disappointed, but I am slowly learning to be patient with Mason (not so much Andre). With so many big guys in our rotation, 2 of them being seniors, I think it is difficult for him to progress like we all want him to. Look at Cole Aldrich! His freshman year was so similar to Mason this year and Cole didn't miss a chunk of time with a wrist injury. Cole didn't foul as much as Mason, but his minutes, points, and rebounds were quite similar. We'll see progress from Mason, just not this year. I see no reason why Mason can't develop a good all-around offensive game as soon as he learns how to take contact.

Why would you be patient with Mason and not Andre??? Andre isn't allowed to struggle his freshman year?

[Chitowndevil]

Honestly I don't think Mason's offense is the problem. In my opinion the motion offense Duke is running right now is actually better suited to Mason's skill set than the offense earlier in the season. His biggest problem is committing silly fouls on defense, which is really cutting into his minutes, together with some careless turnovers. As others have said he is making a lot of freshman mistakes.

Just tossing out a few numbers, in the last 2 games, Mason has committed 6 fouls in only 19 minutes played. From the Georgetown game onward, he's committed 26 fouls in 125 total minutes played, or 8.3 fouls per 40 minutes. For comparison, Zoubek, who was ridiculously foul prone earlier in the season, has committed 12 fouls in 103 total minutes played over Duke's last four games, or 4.7 fouls per 40 minutes. (Yet another aspect of Zoubek's game that's gotten drastically better!)

[GODUKEGO]

I was disappointed in all the freshmen. They missed all their shots. 0 for 7 I think!

You are right 0-7, points 1, rebounds 2 against Tulsa.
0-7, 0 points and 1 rebound VA Tech.

We better stay injury free and out of foul trouble for the upcoming tournaments!!

[noyac]

The thing alot of people forget about young big men is that most of them have grown quite a few inches in the previous years and it takes time for them to get used to this change.

Mason has all of the tools I just think he needs to get used to his body.

[whereinthehellami]

Mason just needs time. He has got alot on his plate right now. His head must swimming. I'm sure alot of the inexperienced guys are looking forward to the off-season now that they know what they need to work on.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Why would you be patient with Mason and not Andre??? Andre isn't allowed to struggle his freshman year?


Andre is allowed to struggle absolutely, but not at the consistency he has been. Mason is a freshman big man playing in the ACC, playing on a team with loads of big men. Andre is the first and only guard off the bench, playing on a team and offense well suited for shooters. 1-14 from the field his last 6 games is mind boggling. I just think he needs to toughen up mentally and get going. It has nothing to do with his physical inabilities.

[theAlaskanBear]

Andre is allowed to struggle absolutely, but not at the consistency he has been. Mason is a freshman big man playing in the ACC, playing on a team with loads of big men. Andre is the first and only guard off the bench, playing on a team and offense well suited for shooters. 1-14 from the field his last 6 games is mind boggling. I just think he needs to toughen up mentally and get going. It has nothing to do with his physical inabilities.

You need to remember that Andre is going through an unimaginable semester. He came to school early, which allowed no adjustment to the university, and thus behind the other freshman. And then the tragedy...

You don't magically "toughen up" after the physical, mental, and emotion exhaustion of a death. It takes time. I am going to withhold all judgment from Andre until next year. For me, anything he can contribute this year is just gravy. I hope he will come around basketball-wise before the NCAA tourney, but I am not holding my breath.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I would say that's not a very accurate use of the word average. Maybe, at this point in his career, he's just not that good. He hasn't been able to fully develop his talents and athleticism.

As for working in the post, it's tough for our offense to run two real post players, and given Z's production down low let's just be happy we've got one guy that can do the job.

Mason will come along, I just doubt it's going to happen significantly this year; he will, however, give us some decent production for a bench player. I hope I'm wrong and he becomes a beast, but that may be a year or two away.

I am glad that you said it first because I was thinking the exact same thing...maybe at this point in his career he is just not that good. I expected him to be a somewhat impact player this year, but he is not.

As you so aptly said, hopefully we are both wrong .

[Tim1515]

While i seem to rarely agree with the broadcasters during Duke games...with Andre i think it is completely true. The kid needs to see the ball go through the basket. The issue is...he hasn't really even been close lately. Early in the season his misses were close...his last few shots barely hit the rim.

I think Mason is having trouble with the game being faster and more physical and he doesn't get enough game time to adjust. That isn't on K...he isn't earning that time...but it will be difficult for him to break out of his shell this year.

[Jeffrey]

Why isn't this thread about Miles, since he's the sophmore who started most of the season?

[Cockabeau]

Mason and Miles are so athletic and talented but they are ALMOST always in bad position on both ends.

With Miles I get the distinct feeling that he is thinking too much instead of just reacting.

With Mason, he is always striving for the homerun, athletic play instead of mixing it up.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Why isn't this thread about Miles, since he's the sophmore who started most of the season?

Because Mason had the hype coming in and more was expected. Miles was a top 100 prospect, but everyone looked at Mason as the next big thing.

[loldevilz]

Why isn't this thread about Miles, since he's the sophmore who started most of the season?

I agree. Miles has the ability to contribute in very significant ways by the end of the season. He played very well last game (did you guys see that hooks shot over the 7 footer). He is really starting to "get it".

Mason is not as far along the learning curve. He obviously has more potential, but I can't see him being an impact player this year.

[wilko]

I'm disappointed no one went for the most obvious choices.... Booze and Co-eds. That'll get guys going.

[Mcluhan]

The ACC tournament will see at least two of our freshman playing a crucial role in a victory.

[pfrduke]

The ACC tournament will see at least two of our freshman playing a crucial role in a victory.

I didn't know they printed Duke basketball fortune cookies. ;)

[BD80]

They're slow to develop unless your name is DeMarcus Cousins. Even Greg Monroe had some growing pains last year! ... Look at Cole Aldrich! His freshman year was so similar to Mason this year and Cole didn't miss a chunk of time with a wrist injury. Cole didn't foul as much as Mason, but his minutes, points, and rebounds were quite similar. ...

I have long hoped that this is an apt comparison. I remember Cole coming into a tournament game and just lighting it up and everyone wondering why he hadn't been playing more all year long.

I can see Mason doing the same thing, coming in if Lance picks up a couple of quick fouls and then scoring a couple buckets and blocking a couple of shots and grabbing some rebounds. Break Out!

Problem is, Mason hasn't yet bought into the system completely. He still overcommits to make a play himself instead of returning to his man once the ballhandler's defender regains position, and won't fully commit to getting back on defense.

On the good side, it really looks like Andre has been paying attention. His defensive positioning looked very good. I'll bet he gets a lot of "atta boys" when they watch the film and some more playing time in coming games.

[jv001]

Miles has the talent to play with his back to the basket. Mason at this point in his career does not. He's more comfortable playing the 4. I thought he played ok in the Tulsa game and he's had some good games along with some not so good games. Hey, he's a freshman who missed some valuable time because of injuries. As for Dre, he's rushing his shots. Looks like he's afraid of getting his shot blocked. Any game now, either of these two talented players could have a break out game. Go Duke!

[NYC Duke Fan]

Miles has the talent to play with his back to the basket. Mason at this point in his career does not. He's more comfortable playing the 4. I thought he played ok in the Tulsa game and he's had some good games along with some not so good games. Hey, he's a freshman who missed some valuable time because of injuries. As for Dre, he's rushing his shots. Looks like he's afraid of getting his shot blocked. Any game now, either of these two talented players could have a break out game. Go Duke!



When it comes to March basketball, he is no longer a freshman, so let's stop using , " he's a freshman", as an excuse why he has not lived up to what we all believed he would be.

We all thought that he would be contibuting much more than he has. If I am not mistaken, at the beginning of the year there were some posters who had him starting.

I remember his father saying last year that if you thought that Mason was going to be a back to the basket player you were incorect, he is not that type of player.

Hopefully, he can contribute some this year and be much better next year.

[Jumbo]

When it comes to March basketball, he is no longer a freshman, so let's stop using , " he's a freshman", as an excuse why he has not lived up to what we all believed he would be.

We all thought that he would be contibuting much more than he has. If I am not mistaken, at the beginning of the year there were some posters who had him starting.

I remember his father saying last year that if you thought that Mason was going to be a back to the basket player you were incorect, he is not that type of player.

Hopefully, he can contribute some this year and be much better next year.

Duke's coach also had him starting before the season. Then he broke his wrist and missed a month. Think that might have made a bit of a difference in his development?

[NYC Duke Fan]

Duke's coach also had him starting before the season. Then he broke his wrist and missed a month. Think that might have made a bit of a difference in his development?

Possibly and probably, but I am sure that you thought he would be further along by now than he is...or maybe you didn't, I have no idea. Being out a month would impact his offense for awhile but should have no impact on his defense, which is not stellar.

[1999ballboy]

Being out a month would impact his offense for awhile but should have no impact on his defense, which is not stellar.
Care to elaborate? Why would being out a month not impact his defense?

[Cockabeau]

Wow to the person who said that Mason doesnt have the talent to play the four.

Mason has the talent to play 3 thru 5 including the 4.

Its not that he is lacking talent at all. Its lack of strength, fundamentals and positioning

[MarkD83]

There are several things that the freshman are doing well that should not be taken for granted.

Miles and Mason are mixing it up down low and occupying other big men. In several cases they are getting tough rebounds. At they very least they are not allowing teams to put two bodies on Zoubs or Singler. My high school basketball coach told me (a big man at the time) that the best rebound is when the big men occupy all of the space, the ball hits the ground and a guard picks it up. Take a look at the number of easy rebounds Nolan and Jon are getting because Miles and Mason are occupying space.

The other thing that the freshman are doing, including Andre, is being a threat on offense. They are not making the shots but they are taking them. That means that other teams can't double team the big three. I will agree that if the shots don't fall other teams will start to ignore Andre, but he is at least shooting the open shot or driving to the basket. The kid just needs to see the ball go in the basket.

[Grta]

My point about the freshmen is when you bring in a sub, in this case our freshmen, there needs to be a positive effect. I haven't looked at the stats but it seems to me that whenever they go in we are not scoring as well and the opponent is. I would love to see them come in and hit a key basket, make a steal, etc. and give the team a lift. Maybe give the big 3 a little rest also.

[Saratoga2]

Right now, Miles has Brian playing well in front of him. That has limited his time and also provided a demonstration of how to play the 5. I thought both Miles and Mason were not getting back quickly on defense and as a result were giving up defensive position. It looked like they were jogging back. If you watch Lance, he sprints back and that allows him to get into position to obstruct and harry the play. Miles shot is also still of the throw it up variety but he looked to be making improvements in the Tulsa game, so maybe good things will come of it.

Mason clearly has tremendous talent with good basketball skills. He has been a little slow getting back on defense, his passes are sometimes inadvisable, he reaches and makes frustration fouls after being shown up and he starts his offense too far from the basket. The defense and discipline he needs to develop could come quickly. Understanding that ball security is very important in college ball is something that he needs to grasp (no pun intended) and he needs to play withing the offense to get his shots off of movement. He could quickly become more accomplished in all these areas if he understands his weaknesses.

Andre has shown a good deal of improvement in his defensive positioning, and is also showing that he can attack the basket and has improving guard skills. My guess is that he shoots the ball well in practice and the coaching instructions are for him to keep shooting, particularly 3's in game situations. They haven't fallen as he appears to rush his shots and not get them off the flow of the offense. He too could be quickly gain in confidence and give the team valuable points in the tournament.

Ryan has shown more ball security than the other bench players and has the savy to be a good player in the future. He hasn't shown the McDonalds 3 point shot form so far but it is probably there but he lacks confidence to use it and defers to others. He appears to be a little slow to guard a college 3 and lacks the strength right now to handle a solid 4 or 5. At best, I see him getting a few minutes in relief of tired players, or coming in when fouls mount up against our bigs.

Clearly, when we get into the tournaments, with multiple games in a short period, these players all will be needed and have to be ready to at least hold there own out there. So far we have been lucky with no major injuries to our key players and lets hope that continues but if it does, these younger guys will be our backstay.

[Devilsfan]

Andre was playing high intensity defense againt Tulsa. I wish he would move more to get free on offense and ask for the ball instead of watching Jon, Nolan and Kyle. It's kind of like what we saw when JJ was out there. Players watching and admiring his abilities.

[Acymetric]

You know, could the Plumlees be a bit slower getting down the court because they simply don't have the conditioning level to run the court up and down? That definitely seems to be they style that would suit their skills, but I'm just throwing this out as a possibility.

For contrast, Lance seems to have endless supplies of energy. Several have pointed to him as a good example of getting back quick on defense. Not only does he get back quick, he's generally right behind the PG trying to disrupt the break if the other team is pushing the ball. Sometimes I wonder if he ever gets tired.

[Kedsy]

Wow to the person who said that Mason doesnt have the talent to play the four.

Mason has the talent to play 3 thru 5 including the 4.

Its not that he is lacking talent at all. Its lack of strength, fundamentals and positioning

I don't think anybody said Mason doesn't have the talent to play the 4. A couple people correctly stated that Miles currently doesn't have the game to play the 4.

[Kedsy]

I will agree that if the shots don't fall other teams will start to ignore Andre, but he is at least shooting the open shot or driving to the basket.

They won't ignore him. His form is too good.

[Mcluhan]

Andre has shown a good deal of improvement in his defensive positioning, and is also showing that he can attack the basket and has improving guard skills. My guess is that he shoots the ball well in practice and the coaching instructions are for him to keep shooting, particularly 3's in game situations. They haven't fallen as he appears to rush his shots and not get them off the flow of the offense. He too could be quickly gain in confidence and give the team valuable points in the tournament.

Ryan has shown more ball security than the other bench players and has the savy to be a good player in the future. He hasn't shown the McDonalds 3 point shot form so far but it is probably there but he lacks confidence to use it and defers to others. He appears to be a little slow to guard a college 3 and lacks the strength right now to handle a solid 4 or 5. At best, I see him getting a few minutes in relief of tired players, or coming in when fouls mount up against our bigs.

In considering Andre and Ryan's current lack of offensive confidence, we'd do well to remember E-Will last year. After he'd worked his way into the starting lineup, teams started daring him to take open jumpers, and the guy basically shriveled. And those were open looks that he'd probably relished and taken full advantage of a year prior, not to mention a year later.

The encouraging thing about Andre is, we've seen his confidence. I mean, he had a confidence that was uncanny early in the season.

[loldevilz]

In considering Andre and Ryan's current lack of offensive confidence, we'd do well to remember E-Will last year. After he'd worked his way into the starting lineup, teams started daring him to take open jumpers, and the guy basically shriveled. And those were open looks that he'd probably relished and taken full advantage of a year prior, not to mention a year later.

The encouraging thing about Andre is, we've seen his confidence. I mean, he had a confidence that was uncanny early in the season.

Like Nolan Smith and Gerald Henderson, I expect Andre will break out his Junior Year. He clearly has much longer to develop than everyone initially thought. If Singler stays then he will probably play off the bench next year again and then start at the 3 his junior year.

[Newton_14]

There is a lot of basketball left to be played for this team. I expect that both Mason and Andre will continue to improve and be heard from in some of these games. The great thing about the current situation is that the team is playing at a very high level, yet the potential to get additional help and be an even stronger team is actually pretty good. We have 4 guys that are very capable of providing a boost in Mason, Miles, Andre, and Ryan. Any one of those 4 could have a game or games where they find a groove and give the team scoring, rebounding or both.

Is it far fetched that Mason or Andre could have a game where they score 14 to 18 points? Or for Miles to score 12 to 16 points and grab 10 boards? Or Ryan to knock down a couple of 3's and have a game of say 8 to 10 points and 3 or 4 assists?

I think any of those scenario's are quite possible. These guys are good players who will likely be anywhere from really good to great players before their Duke careers are over. Imagine the lift it would give this team if any of those guys have a game or two down the stretch where they get it going. It would be huge.

Not saying it will definitely happen, but it is more than reasonable that it could. The ceiling for this team is still quite a bit higher than where they are at right now. They have already gotten a huge boost from Zoubs that made them better. Having 1 or 2 of the young guys step up and play like they can would make this a really hard team to beat.

[CDu]

Wow to the person who said that Mason doesnt have the talent to play the four.

Mason has the talent to play 3 thru 5 including the 4.

Its not that he is lacking talent at all. Its lack of strength, fundamentals and positioning

Mason does not have the talent to play the 3. He's not quick enough and he doesn't have the shooting touch or ballhandling skills for the position. He is, I agree, very well-suited to play the 4 or 5. I don't think he lacks the strength to play the 4 or 5 either (he's pretty strong). It's just that he lacks a refined post game or shooting touch offensively and he is still working to fully understand the defensive concepts for Duke, which leaves him out of position a lot. And it doesn't help that he hasn't yet figured out not to reach in after missed shots/missed rebounds.

But yes, with time, he's going to be a force at either the 4 or the 5 spot. It's just that his skill set offensively needs more work, and his overall understanding of the game (especially defensively) needs more work. Hopefully that will come with time.