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SoCalDukeFan
02-22-2010, 10:42 AM
Kevin O'Neill is the coach at USC. In comparing his style to Tim Floyd's he said
"Tim was a big hands-off guy," he said. "I'm big into hands-on, foul, keep fouling and they'll quit calling it. I'm big into physical play."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-usc-basketball20-2010feb20,0,4985367.story

First of all, imho USC plays much less physical defense than many ACC schools. I also think its strange for a coach to say that he wants his team to foul because the fouls won't get called.

However I wonder how many other coaches have the same philosophy. At some point won't the refs get told to keep calling the fouls?

SoCal

CDu
02-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Kevin O'Neill is the coach at USC. In comparing his style to Tim Floyd's he said
"Tim was a big hands-off guy," he said. "I'm big into hands-on, foul, keep fouling and they'll quit calling it. I'm big into physical play."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-usc-basketball20-2010feb20,0,4985367.story

First of all, imho USC plays much less physical defense than many ACC schools. I also think its strange for a coach to say that he wants his team to foul because the fouls won't get called.

However I wonder how many other coaches have the same philosophy. At some point won't the refs get told to keep calling the fouls?

SoCal

I agree that it's weird that a coach would admit to that. But it is and has been a way of life in the Big 10 and Big East for some time. I'd rate the Pac-10 and the ACC as two of the slowest to adapt to this style of play.

Lord Ash
02-22-2010, 11:25 AM
Complainers have been saying Duke does that for years. Personally, I don't buy it.

gumbomoop
02-22-2010, 01:53 PM
Kevin O'Neill is the coach at USC. In comparing his style to Tim Floyd's he said
"Tim was a big hands-off guy," he said. "I'm big into hands-on, foul, keep fouling and they'll quit calling it. I'm big into physical play."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-usc-basketball20-2010feb20,0,4985367.story

First of all, imho USC plays much less physical defense than many ACC schools. I also think its strange for a coach to say that he wants his team to foul because the fouls won't get called.

However I wonder how many other coaches have the same philosophy. At some point won't the refs get told to keep calling the fouls?

SoCal

Well, this seems so weird that it belongs on the "Weird" thread, but guess which team is #1 in AdjD/Rank in KenPom's current ratings. You guessed it: http://kenpom.com/rate.php

Kedsy
02-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Complainers have been saying Duke does that for years. Personally, I don't buy it.

Duke has always done it, to an extent, although not this year so much. The biggest offenders in this regard in my memory were the Pittino Kentucky teams. They put a lot of pressure on the ball, and that often included fairly obvious slaps and bumps that were almost never called. Quite frankly, they fouled on practically every opposing possession, and that in and of itself kept the refs from blowing the whistle, because they couldn't stop play every single time down the court. And once you accept you can't call it every time, human nature causes you to more or less ignore it. It's not a bad strategy, although quite an annoying one to opposing teams and fans.

CDu
02-22-2010, 02:24 PM
Duke has always done it, to an extent, although not this year so much. The biggest offenders in this regard in my memory were the Pittino Kentucky teams. They put a lot of pressure on the ball, and that often included fairly obvious slaps and bumps that were almost never called. Quite frankly, they fouled on practically every opposing possession, and that in and of itself kept the refs from blowing the whistle, because they couldn't stop play every single time down the court. And once you accept you can't call it every time, human nature causes you to more or less ignore it. It's not a bad strategy, although quite an annoying one to opposing teams and fans.

Duke doesn't slap as much, but we definitely use a lot of body contact. When we play defense. We're just very subtle (mostly) with that contact, so it goes uncalled. I wouldn't classify that as similar to the MSU/Big East/Pitino style of aggressive defense.

greybeard
02-22-2010, 08:08 PM
The type of "aggressive defense" that I can't stand is when a team with strong guys bang and push people all over the court, make moving through space like being a running back in football. I think that the ACC has its share of teams who play that style. U of Miami, Georga Tech, Vir Tech, Wake, and Clemson. Those teams rock and roll with anyone. U of Miami is the worst offender in my opinion. When they had McM, they played rougher than any team anywhere.

Seems to me that this coach was just calling out the hypocracy of the leagues, the NCAA, for allowing things to degenerate as they have.

I trace this type of defense to the General, whose teams when they were on top made every step a physically contested one whether you had the ball or not once you passed half court. JTII took it to 90 feet. The game has never recovered.

Part of the rationale for allowing all the pushing and shoving, chipping and whatnot of cutters, etc, is the inside play. They don't call walking and allow hanging on rims so a guy can dunk the ball on plays that a dunk would be physically impossible, or at least way too risky, if they couldn't hang. Because of the difficultly of defending this type of inside play, the rules started permitting, or at least they are interpreted as permitting, sumo wrestling that passes for post play.

Stop allowing hanging on the rim, call walks near the basket, call palming when littles use a palm hesitation, and call walks when players shuffle to shoot a three, and there will be less "need" to permit all this physicality. Course, if you did away with the dunk altogether, then play at the rim would be far more interesting and exciting and skill would trump sheer power.

dukemsu
02-22-2010, 08:34 PM
is the most effective practicioner of this that I've seen. Kramer, Hummel, and to a lesser extent Jackson have two hands on the ballhandler at virtually all times. Painter has admitted that the Boilers basically foul on every play and see how many the officials will call. It's working so far, though I do wonder how they'll adjust if the offficials do indeed make perimeter holding/checking a focus in the tournament.

Michigan State has played this way in the past (they have gotten away from it in recent years a bit). I also recall the Howland UCLA teams playing this way.

dukemsu

davidrosenhp
02-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Watch Singler on a perimeter switch. Very often he pushes the screener out of the way with one arm to the chest after the switch. I've seen him push opponents in this manner in non-switch situations as well. Doesn't get called, and I love seeing him do it. Great court undertsanding by disrupting the opponents offensive motion.

mo.st.dukie
02-23-2010, 11:49 AM
Watch Singler on a perimeter switch. Very often he pushes the screener out of the way with one arm to the chest after the switch. I've seen him push opponents in this manner in non-switch situations as well. Doesn't get called, and I love seeing him do it. Great court undertsanding by disrupting the opponents offensive motion.

When you're getting screened you're supposed to put your forearm in the screener's chest and get the leg that is closest to the screener over the top of the screen. That's of course assuming you're trying to get over the screen and not under, at least that's the way I was always taught to do it.

davidrosenhp
02-23-2010, 11:57 AM
Good depiction of screen defense, but the Singler move is after he breaks the screen or switches - he gives an extra push to keep the screener from cutting or popping. Watch for it - it's sublte, but since I have been putting my personal "iso" on him, I noticed this move.

wilko
02-23-2010, 12:16 PM
Good depiction of screen defense, but the Singler move is after he breaks the screen or switches - he gives an extra push to keep the screener from cutting or popping. Watch for it - it's sublte, but since I have been putting my personal "iso" on him, I noticed this move.

How about hitting the screener with enuff force to to send him careening into the shooter? 1) it sends a message to the screener, 2) it cant be a shooting foul.

that would be a new twist :D

BD80
02-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Good depiction of screen defense, but the Singler move is after he breaks the screen or switches - he gives an extra push to keep the screener from cutting or popping. Watch for it - it's sublte, but since I have been putting my personal "iso" on him, I noticed this move.

While we are mashing on Kyle, when you iso on him, watch how well he moves toward rebounds. He identifies shot path and gets position very quickly, making him a much underappreciated rebounder.

BD80
02-23-2010, 12:26 PM
How about hitting the screener with enuff force to to send him careening into the shooter? 1) it sends a message to the screener, 2) it cant be a shooting foul.

that would be a new twist :D

Been watching curling in the Winter Olympics?

whereinthehellami
02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
Good depiction of screen defense, but the Singler move is after he breaks the screen or switches - he gives an extra push to keep the screener from cutting or popping. Watch for it - it's sublte, but since I have been putting my personal "iso" on him, I noticed this move.

Singler is alot of fun to watch. Kid goes all out and has a high basketball IQ with an edge. Kind of old school, i like it!

gumbomoop
02-23-2010, 12:39 PM
While we are mashing on Kyle, when you iso on him, watch how well he moves toward rebounds. He identifies shot path and gets position very quickly, making him a much underappreciated rebounder.

Good point. Just as JS has outstanding court sense, KS seems to possess well-honed rebounding sense. A local D-II team I see occasionally has a guy with an amazing sense of where the ball's gonna be after a missed shot, and your phrase "shot path" reminds me that this is a valuable attribute.

Hadn't thought about it, but now you mention it, I guess KS's rebounding hasn't come in for much comment and appreciation, in view of his earlier shooting slump, and now Z's impressive numbers.

wilko
02-23-2010, 12:43 PM
Been watching curling in the Winter Olympics?

Actually, yeah....

Curling is kinda interesting. Since so many folks trash it, I decided to pay it some attention just to see what it is...

Its bowling, darts, chess and pool all in one. Its not the game I thought it was.
Not sure its Olympic worthy as a "sport" but its more interesting than I thought.

BD80
02-23-2010, 12:57 PM
Actually, yeah....

Curling is kinda interesting. Since so many folks trash it, I decided to pay it some attention just to see what it is...

Its bowling, darts, chess and pool all in one. Its not the game I thought it was.
Not sure its Olympic worthy as a "sport" but its more interesting than I thought.

Curling is popular up here in the Detroit area, although most travel south of the border to Windsor for leagues.

The best part is that you can set your "sportsdrink" - (LaBlatts seems to be preferred) on the playing surface and it stays cold.

If you don't think that the Olympians are drinking heavily, how do you explain some of the shots the US men's team has attempted -particularly in the last couple ends against Canada?

wilko
02-23-2010, 01:15 PM
The best part is that you can set your "sportsdrink" - (LaBlatts seems to be preferred) on the playing surface and it stays cold.

If you don't think that the Olympians are drinking heavily, how do you explain some of the shots the US men's team has attempted -particularly in the last couple ends against Canada?

hehehe. I was living in Savannah GA. during the Atlanta Olympics. There was a venue in Sav. for some of the water sports events. I had work access within the "Village". One of the surprising things I learned was that the athletes get gift packages (ala the Oscars). One of the things included was condoms.

Someone is not properly capitalizing on a truly great advertising campaign.
Then it also struck me that I'd want to see a behind the scenes reality show like a "blind date" or something for the athletes in the village. That would be be fun too..


And in my terrible attempt to bring it home and make it thread relevant...

I think we might be gelling at the right time for a run. Much has been made about our Shooting % taking a dip... I think that's directly related to how much energy HAS to be expended defending the opposition.

I've noticed our substitution patterns has been more liberal in the 1st half to spell guys. (Dawkins and Kelly getting some burn) and then as the game goes on situations (fouls, match-ups aside) we tend to run with the hot hand and whos being productive.

I think the hope has to be more gusto to close games... and who knows.. confidence breeds success and if we get on a hot streak, we have as good a chance as anyone else to make some noise.

davidrosenhp
02-23-2010, 01:28 PM
While we are mashing on Kyle, when you iso on him, watch how well he moves toward rebounds. He identifies shot path and gets position very quickly, making him a much underappreciated rebounder.

Sorry to bring folks back from curling, but I noticed something else during my Singler isolation viewing that I don't know how to interpret - someone out there who played at a high level or knows the game well may clarify. When he shoots his three's, he often (not always) stays in place with the shooting hand still in the release position and watches the shot....shouldn't he either follow his shot (the previous comments about his rebounding instincts I think apply to other shooters or his inside put-backs); find someone to box out; or back-pedal in case there is a defensive rebound and outlet?

wilko
02-23-2010, 01:40 PM
When he shoots his three's, he often (not always) stays in place with the shooting hand still in the release position and watches the shot....shouldn't he either follow his shot (the previous comments about his rebounding instincts I think apply to other shooters or his inside put-backs); find someone to box out; or back-pedal in case there is a defensive rebound and outlet?

I think shooters have to expect the ball to go in every time. Unless the ball somehow slips midshot or is touched by a Defender. I think the expectation is 100% twine.

Sometimes holding relative position is good for a long rebound to come off the iron is good. But otherwise its asking a lot for a 3pt shooter to be in a position to box out and rebound his missed shot.

I think its up to the other guys to anticipate and be in position to rebound. They see each other every day in practice and know tendencies, I'd like to think...

However, it wouldn't hurt to have someone release early and be in position to make a play and break up a quick outlet in case we don't get the rebound..