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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 67, Virginia Tech 55 Post-Game Thread



Jumbo
02-21-2010, 09:54 PM
You know what's nice about missing a ton of shots? When you have a 7'1" guy who can track so many of them down. Enjoy your post-game discussion!

geraldsneighbor
02-21-2010, 09:56 PM
did we really just shoot 29 percent and win by 12? Thank you Z.

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 09:56 PM
You can't stop the beard, you can only hope to contain him

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Great game by Z. The whole team finished strong and didn't back down to the usual antics by the Hokies.

Would like to think the ACC would suspend Hudson for the swipe at Nolan. Just because it wasn't a punch and didn't hurt him doesn't mean he didn't intentionally swing at his face.

mcdukie
02-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Big win! We kept our composure and fought through the garbage. The 3 Nolan hit at the end was better than a slap in the face to the jerk Hudson!!!

delfrio
02-21-2010, 09:58 PM
You can't stop the beard, you can only hope to contain him

I'm pretty sure it's government designed, probably by the Russians

VanDuk
02-21-2010, 09:58 PM
It gives me a warm feeling in the cockels of my heart.. to be able to feel good about Zoub. He has been an absolute monster these last 3 games. Zouberman!!

That last 3 by Nolan was a bigger punch than Delaney will ever be able to throw. Give em hell Devils!!

I love this team.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 09:59 PM
It gives me a warm feeling in the cockels of my heart.. to be able to feel good about Zoub. He has been an absolute monster these last 3 games. Zouberman!!

That last 3 by Nolan was a bigger punch than Delaney will ever be able to throw. Give em hell Devils!!

I love this team.

It wasn't Delaney - it was Hudson.

And I think Hudson's just mad that Nolan's much better than he is.

moonpie23
02-21-2010, 10:00 PM
another gutsy, gritty win for this team...Z was huge.....loved nolan flushing that 3 after the altercation...


the spirit of deron washington lives on....

great game guys...

jv001
02-21-2010, 10:00 PM
I had forgotten just how much I disliked Seth douchebag. Go Duke!

RoyalBlue08
02-21-2010, 10:00 PM
Glad to get the win. Another gutsy effort from the guys. The plummeting production from the Plumlee's is really starting to worry me though. Mason's line was 6 mins, 3 fouls, 0 pts, 0 boards. And it was worse than the numbers. Miles didn't do much better. I hope these guys are just in a bit of a slump and can get some confidence back before tournament time!

VanDuk
02-21-2010, 10:00 PM
It wasn't Delaney - it was Hudson.

And I think Hudson's just mad that Nolan's much better than he is.

I meant Hudson. I had too many thoughts rolling around in ma noggin. :D

ivydevil
02-21-2010, 10:01 PM
This win was great. Why is it that the VT games always turn into slug fests? I hope we don't meet up with them in the ACC tourney...they just play dirty.

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 10:01 PM
Kyle is really coming out of that slump strong... rounding in to form big time

25 and 10 ho hum

mgtr
02-21-2010, 10:02 PM
the spirit of deron washington lives on....

great game guys...

Very well said! Deron Washington indeed.

gwwilburn
02-21-2010, 10:03 PM
Gutsy win against an underrated team. Would have liked to see more than 4 points from players whose last name does not begin with S, though. But I'll take it.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:03 PM
Glad to get the win. Another gutsy effort from the guys. The plummeting production from the Plumlee's is really starting to worry me though. Mason's line was 6 mins, 3 fouls, 0 pts, 0 boards. And it was worse than the numbers. Miles didn't do much better. I hope these guys are just in a bit of a slump and can get some confidence back before tournament time!

I think part of it is that they don't get too many touches in scoring position. They get frustrated and try to force plays, resulting in dumb fouls and forced shots.

When they were playing well, they were getting fed the ball on occasion.

Dar95
02-21-2010, 10:03 PM
An excellent peformance by the starting 5. 63 of 67 points by the S's, Zoubs continuing to emerge as a defensive and rebounding force. And a great job by Lance of playing the last 10 minutes or so with 4 fouls and continuing to be a presence on D.

If we can keep the starting 5 on the floor, this will be a hard team to beat. VT was better than anticipated, this was a solid W.

Saratoga2
02-21-2010, 10:04 PM
On a night we looked tight, and probably the pace of the game and the physical nature of it, tended to impact our shooting, we still won. A LARGE part of the win can be attributed to Zoubek, who rebounded, altered shots, set good screens and played solid all around defense. Good to see the improvement he has made continuing game to game.

I think all but 4 points came from the big three.

Thomas, Zoubek, Scheyer, Singler and Smith is a very effective lineup. The Plumlees and Dawkins didn't add much and Kelly looked a little better while in there. We need the subs to find their games soon. The bigs just need to watch Zoubek to see what it takes to succeed.

I would think the MOTM is between Singler and Zoubek

Vincetaylor
02-21-2010, 10:05 PM
Hudson should have been T'ed up, but that's it. His semi-punch was no different than Laettner's semi-stomp.

mapei
02-21-2010, 10:05 PM
very gritty, tough performance. That stretch where our 11-pt lead was erased was really ugly. BZ kept providing chances & the big 3 took enough advantage to seal it. Hate the way VT plays.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:05 PM
Wow. I just realized. 1 point off the bench? Ew.

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 10:06 PM
Parade Rain: Z with these last three games has really overshadowed the serious problems the plumlees have been having with fouls. Step 1 in development is staying out of foul trouble. It lets the players get consistent minutes, get comfortable in the game, etc... The Plumlee boys can't get over that very first hump pretty consistently and thereby deny themselves any chance at all to make an impact.

rotogod00
02-21-2010, 10:07 PM
great, gutsy win. nice to shoot that poorly and still come out on top. one disturbing trend is (of course) the bench play. 1 point and a total of 22 minutes is probably not going to cut it come march.

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 10:07 PM
did we really just shoot 29 percent and win by 12? Thank you Z.

Feels like the kind of game Duke would have lost last season, right? Last year, I referred to Duke's offensive rebounding as its secret weapon going into the tourney. This year, it's even better, and it's not a secret anymore. If this team brings it on D (which has been the case almost every game with a couple of notable exceptions) and continues to grab offensive boards at a 40%+ clip, it can survive a lousy shooting night in a tough spot. Of course, hopefully our shooters will get going and it won't come to that! ;)

Bluedevil114
02-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Even the refs could not stop Zoubek!! Big game for the big fella. Great to see him over the last four games really do what we all have been waiting for since he arrived four years ago. Good win over a scrappy team. It will be great to see Maryland and VTech play next week.

roywhite
02-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Coach K with Bob Harris postgame:

really tough game...our defense down the stretch was very good...shot 29% and won...hit some key shots...getting the lead to 8 knocked them back...good rebounding...got good shots, just didn't hit them...10 for 30 from 3-pt...16 rebounds for Zoubs...Kyle 25 and 10...proud of our guys...don't overlook Tulsa...let's close out home stand in grand fashion...senior class has been phenomenal...not much transition scoring...27 second chance points for Duke the key stat...Singler made some huge buckets...Kyle played great game overall, playing his best now...Coach sounds very happy

tbyers11
02-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Hudson should have been T'ed up, but that's it. His semi-punch was no different than Laettner's semi-stomp.

Agreed. Nolan was jawing too, but how could the refs look at it for that long and not decide that Hudson did more than Nolan by throwing that forearm?

rotogod00
02-21-2010, 10:08 PM
On a night we looked tight, and probably the pace of the game and the physical nature of it, tended to impact our shooting, we still won. A LARGE part of the win can be attributed to Zoubek, who rebounded, altered shots, set good screens and played solid all around defense. Good to see the improvement he has made continuing game to game.

I think all but 4 points came from the big three.

Thomas, Zoubek, Scheyer, Singler and Smith is a very effective lineup. The Plumlees and Dawkins didn't add much and Kelly looked a little better while in there. We need the subs to find their games soon. The bigs just need to watch Zoubek to see what it takes to succeed.

I would think the MOTM is between Singler and Zoubek

all 2 minutes of it?

loldevilz
02-21-2010, 10:10 PM
I gotta sing the praises for Nolan above all else. I loved his toughness after the fight and then hitting the dagger 3. Kyle and Z maintained their outstanding level of play. Jon played just ok.

Lance wasn't much of a factor again. I still can't buy the argument that we should play him for his D. His stats were not spectacular. No points, half a dozen rebounds. Am I the only one that expects more from this position?

Nrrrrvous
02-21-2010, 10:11 PM
Did we score in transition?

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 10:12 PM
I gotta sing the praises for Nolan above all else. I loved his toughness after the fight and then hitting the dagger 3. Kyle and Z maintained their outstanding level of play. Jon played just ok.

Lance wasn't much of a factor again. I still can't buy the argument that we should play him for his D. His stats were not spectacular. No points, half a dozen rebounds. Am I the only one that expects more from this position?

Well we could play a Plumlee but they aren't exactly superb at staying on the floor.

CAT Blue Devil
02-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Interesting that Scheyer had Delaney for most of the second half. Fouls by Nolan? Reliance on team switching? Either way did a pretty decent job on him for most of the last 10 minutes.

Vincetaylor
02-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Agreed. Nolan was jawing too, but how could the refs look at it for that long and not decide that Hudson did more than Nolan by throwing that forearm?

Calling Smith for anything was definitely questionable.

Lord Ash
02-21-2010, 10:14 PM
Ehhh...

Positive is that we won, big three looked good, Zoubek rebounded like a beast... to shoot as badly as we did and still win by a bit is nice. Will Brian be able to keep this up with some relative consistency? I do hope so!

Negative... only ONE basket by someone other than the Three Ss? That is terrible, and come March, there is no way that will get us anywhere in the tournament. Mindblowing... when was the last time three guys made 94% of our baskets? Honestly, this worries the hell out of me. Regular season wins are great, especially against trash like VT, but at this point in the year I want to see some points from elsewhere... we've had a lot of one and two hit wonder teams that have fizzled in the tourney against strong defensive teams, and I honestly wonder if a three hit wonder is any more reliable...

Saratoga2
02-21-2010, 10:14 PM
I gotta sing the praises for Nolan above all else. I loved his toughness after the fight and then hitting the dagger 3. Kyle and Z maintained their outstanding level of play. Jon played just ok.

Lance wasn't much of a factor again. I still can't buy the argument that we should play him for his D. His stats were not spectacular. No points, half a dozen rebounds. Am I the only one that expects more from this position?

He is better than any alternative.

DoubleDuke Dad
02-21-2010, 10:15 PM
Even the refs could not stop Zoubek!! Big game for the big fella. Great to see him over the last four games really do what we all have been waiting for since he arrived four years ago. Good win over a scrappy team. It will be great to see Maryland and VTech play next week.

Well they did try with that phantom 4th foul on Zoubek which was finally correctly given to Thomas.

WiJoe
02-21-2010, 10:17 PM
Calling Smith for anything was definitely questionable.


I'm going to go out on a strong limb here and say Nolan is more effective making it look like nothing is going on while talking nba-style trash. So I suspect he had it coming, although in ndotsmitty's defense, I don't know HOW that could be picked up from watching replays.

Helluva win.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:17 PM
Well they did try with that phantom 4th foul on Zoubek which was finally correctly given to Thomas.

That one proves that they really do look to call Z for fouls just for standing there...

At least they corrected that. His first foul was pretty lame, too... where he and Delaney were fighting for a loose ball and Delaney had ahold of Z's arm and wouldn't let go.... so they called Z.

House G
02-21-2010, 10:18 PM
Not a bad double dip--Duke over VT and USA over Canada!

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm going to go out on a strong limb here and say Nolan is more effective making it look like nothing is going on while talking nba-style trash. So I suspect he had it coming, although in ndotsmitty's defense, I don't know HOW that could be picked up from watching replays.

Helluva win.

You can't call a T for talkin unless you hear it. Maybe the ref read lips...

But you can call a T for throwing a forearm in a replay.

Newton_14
02-21-2010, 10:19 PM
I gotta sing the praises for Nolan above all else. I loved his toughness after the fight and then hitting the dagger 3. Kyle and Z maintained their outstanding level of play. Jon played just ok.

Lance wasn't much of a factor again. I still can't buy the argument that we should play him for his D. His stats were not spectacular. No points, half a dozen rebounds. Am I the only one that expects more from this position?

Lance plays great defense night in and night out. He can and does at times guard every position on the floor and is the best help and recover defender on the team by a mile and help and recover or rotate is the most important part of Duke's defensive schemes. He is a glue guy, the emotional leader of the team, and brings toughness. He is not a stat stuffer and never will be, but there is more to basketball than stats. He was absolutely a factor in that game mostly by what he prevented from happening. I would take 2 more of him if we could find a way to clone him.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:20 PM
Lance plays great defense night in and night out. He can and does at times guard every position on the floor and is the best help and recover defender on the team by a mile and help and recover or rotate is the most important part of Duke's defensive schemes. He is a glue guy, the emotional leader of the team, and brings toughness. He is not a stat stuffer and never will be, but there is more to basketball than stats. He was absolutely a factor in that game mostly by what he prevented from happening. I would take 2 more of him if we could find a way to clone him.

You'd need to clone him for the 5 extra fouls... :p

All joking aside, I'm not sure why so many people are down on Lance when he's essentially the same player as McClure was last year. I actually like Lance's game a little better because he doesn't shoot any 3s.

rotogod00
02-21-2010, 10:21 PM
You'd need to clone him for the 5 extra fouls... :p

All joking aside, I'm not sure why so many people are down on Lance when he's essentially the same player as McClure was last year. I actually like Lance's game a little better because he doesn't shoot any 3s.

he knows his limitations, which is anything beyond a foot and a half

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:22 PM
Kyle seems soooooooooooooooo much more confident than earlier in the year. He is finally the player that many thought he could be before the season started.

Z was a BEAST on the boards tonight. This wasn't just the ball dropping into his hands. Did you see the play where he was flashing to the three-point line on one side of the court and then snagged the rebound on the opposite side? I repeat, he was a BEAST.

Jon does so many things right, it's hard to notice any in particular.

Nolan is so focused on the big play. If there's 5 seconds left on the shot clock, I hope he has the ball.

Our defense is so much worse when Lance is not in the game. Whoever said they want more from his position isn't paying close enough attention.

Not a lot of minutes, and not any made shots, but I liked what I saw from Andre and Ryan tonight.

Not a great game from Miles and Mason. I hope they know how much better they can play.

Good win.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:22 PM
he knows his limitations, which is anything beyond a foot and a half

Absolutely. McClure did, too, for the most part... but now and then he'd jack one up.

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 10:23 PM
I gotta sing the praises for Nolan above all else. I loved his toughness after the fight and then hitting the dagger 3. Kyle and Z maintained their outstanding level of play. Jon played just ok.

Lance wasn't much of a factor again. I still can't buy the argument that we should play him for his D. His stats were not spectacular. No points, half a dozen rebounds. Am I the only one that expects more from this position?

Are you forgetting that Lance is playing with an incredibly painful injury? That severe bone bruise hasn't just disappeared in less than two weeks, and its clear that he is not moving as well since then (just look at his difference in stats before and after the UNC game for proof). He's still an incredibly valuable defender, but people need to remember that injuries just don't go away because a player is on the court. Lance isn't himself. I've been worried about Singler's wrist every game since he hurt it. I hate hearing stuff about Scheyer's back, and I thought he looked really stiff and unlike himself tonight.

I hope none of these injuries are serious, but Duke players have a tremendous track record of sucking it up, playing through pain and then allowing all of us to find out that they were playing with ailments we'd never heard about after the season ends.

Billy Dat
02-21-2010, 10:23 PM
VTech was pretty poor defensively, we got a lot of wide open looks and just didn't knock them down for long stretches.

It also felt, for a while, that they were getting a lot of the random bounces, but they failed to capitalize on most of them.

It seems like a good idea to run against us and to try and break us down off the dribble, but our defense in those areas is that much better this year which feels like a big difference. Quick guards can still break us down, but the frontline keeps them honest.

Lance does lots of things on the defensive end that don't show up in the box score. Even with his foul trouble, his presence was felt.

The Plumlees never got in a groove, they often need an early play to go their way to make them roll better...which is not unusal for young guys.

It is so easy to ho hum the performances of our big 3...Scheyer 15 and 7 in 40 minutes....Singler 25 and 10 in 40...Nolan 23 in 39 minutes and lots of big plays down the stretch. Cherish them.

Zoubek has been nothing short of a revelation.

hq2
02-21-2010, 10:23 PM
Negative... only ONE basket by someone other than the Three Ss? That is terrible, and come March, there is no way that will get us anywhere in the tournament. Mindblowing... when was the last time three guys made 94% of our baskets? Honestly, this worries the hell out of me. Regular season wins are great, especially against trash like VT, but at this point in the year I want to see some points from elsewhere... we've had a lot of one and two hit wonder teams that have fizzled in the tourney against strong defensive teams, and I honestly wonder if a three hit wonder is any more reliable...

Totally agree with this post. Besides Zoubs, who acquited himself with rebounds (and nice pass outs to open shooters) noone did anything but the big three. The Plumlees were MIA, and again Lance's offense was nonexistent; forced shots and muggings. We have to do better than this in the tournament. Still, this was a game we would have lost last year, without Z to clean up the mess.

Nice to see Kyle continue to pick it up. That's a big help.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:24 PM
he knows his limitations, which is anything beyond a foot and a half

Are you kidding? Not tonight, but Lance has been strong from 15 to 17 feet. Frankly, it's within a foot and a half that he has trouble.

Saratoga2
02-21-2010, 10:25 PM
Those looking for reasons to make us a #1 seed may use the Villanova loss and our win to move us up to #5 in the rankings. We played this game tough and showed we can play the physical style against a good team and prevail. On to Tulsa.

loldevilz
02-21-2010, 10:27 PM
He is better than any alternative.

With all due respect I really don't think we've really explored any alternatives. Ryan is getting less than 5 minutes a game playing with Zoubs. He has shown potential, but K refuses to give him satisfactory minutes. Mason spends most of his time playing with Miles and they are a terrible combo even though everyone loves the idea of the "bash brothers".

As bad as Mason and Ryan's defense may be it seems like the lesser of two evils. Especially when we consistently have games where we have 1 basket from other than the Big 3. We consistently have games where we shoot 2 pointers at less than 30%, which means we are just taking jump shots. These seem to me like obvious RED LIGHTS.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:27 PM
VTech was pretty poor defensively...

You know, I thought they were pretty good defensively. This game was a battle, and Duke fought through sufficiently for the W.

FerryFor50
02-21-2010, 10:28 PM
Are you kidding? Not tonight, but Lance has been strong from 15 to 17 feet. Frankly, it's within a foot and a half that he has trouble.

He tries to pump fake too much and ends up jumping out of control, which is why he doesn't get as many calls as he could.

JBDuke
02-21-2010, 10:30 PM
...Ryan is getting less than 5 minutes a game playing with Zoubs. He has shown potential, but K refuses to give him satisfactory minutes...

Could you please explain this sentence a little more? Ryan's minutes aren't satisfactory to whom? You? Ryan? The rest of his teammates? Just curious who was dissatisfied with Ryan's minutes and how you got this info.

jv001
02-21-2010, 10:30 PM
he knows his limitations, which is anything beyond a foot and a half

I had rather see Lance take the 10-12 foot jumper than a contested layup. He will not get the jump shot blocked. I love the guy but hate to see him take contested shots around the bucket. Go Duke!

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:34 PM
With all due respect I really don't think we've really explored any alternatives. Ryan is getting less than 5 minutes a game playing with Zoubs. He has shown potential, but K refuses to give him satisfactory minutes. Mason spends most of his time playing with Miles and they are a terrible combo even though everyone loves the idea of the "bash brothers".

As bad as Mason and Ryan's defense may be it seems like the lesser of two evils. Especially when we consistently have games where we have 1 basket from other than the Big 3. We consistently have games where we shoot 2 pointers at less than 30%, which means we are just taking jump shots. These seem to me like obvious RED LIGHTS.

Well, with all due respect I don't think you're paying attention. Duke is where it is almost exclusively because of defense.

Ryan is improving, but he'll never be the defensive player Lance is. Mason was atrocious tonight. No matter how poorly we're shooting, it feels like we're in control when Lance is in there and everything feels iffy when he's not. We are the most efficient offensive team in the country (at least according to Pomeroy) and all of our losses are due to sloppy defense. If Lance and Z play well, we win, plain and simple. That's as much of a green light as you can expect at this point in the season.

Kfanarmy
02-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Ehhh...

Regular season wins are great, especially against trash like VT...

Is this really necessary. They played a tough game against a tough Duke team. It got a bit chippy, but calling them trash just seems way over the top.

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 10:36 PM
With all due respect I really don't think we've really explored any alternatives.

I thought this was sarcasm until I kept reading. K has used every combination of big men available and has done so for significant time at different points this season.


Ryan is getting less than 5 minutes a game playing with Zoubs. He has shown potential, but K refuses to give him satisfactory minutes.

Do you think he is better than the Plumlees and the seniors? Satisfactory? As the fifth best post player due to his body and experience, I think 5 minutes/game is pretty satisfactory. FIFTH in the post rotation and nobody is arguing he should move up above the other 4.


Mason spends most of his time playing with Miles and they are a terrible combo even though everyone loves the idea of the "bash brothers".

This is factually untrue. Miles and Mason have only recently started playing significant minutes together because Zoubek has been turning it on big time. Most of the season they have not played many minutes together at all. Miles and LT have seen more minutes together than Mason and Miles.


As bad as Mason and Ryan's defense may be it seems like the lesser of two evils. Especially when we consistently have games where we have 1 basket from other than the Big 3. We consistently have games where we shoot 2 pointers at less than 30%, which means we are just taking jump shots. These seem to me like obvious RED LIGHTS.

Honest to God. K gives the plumlees opportunities. They just can't stop fouling. Fouls= bench for any player of any level of skill or experience. At some point, people have to accept that the Plumlees are given ample minutes and opportunity, but have simply not taken advantage of it.

roywhite
02-21-2010, 10:38 PM
Well, with all due respect I don't think you're paying attention. Duke is where it is almost exclusively because of defense.

Ryan is improving, but he'll never be the defensive player Lance is. Mason was atrocious tonight. No matter how poorly we're shooting, it feels like we're in control when Lance is in there and everything feels iffy when he's not. We are the most efficient offensive team in the country (at least according to Pomeroy) and all of our losses are due to sloppy defense. If Lance and Z play well, we win, plain and simple. That's as much of a green light as you can expect at this point in the season.

Gotta agree...the big three as a group are so good and so reliable (you don't know who will have the best game, but you know the three of them will give you great production) that the variable is the performance from the other positions...which doesn't have to be scoring...can be defense and rebounding.

3 key seniors and 2 key juniors in the starting lineup...thoroughly battle-tested...great coach...this looks like a great NCAA profile.

Lord Ash
02-21-2010, 10:39 PM
Is this really necessary. They played a tough game against a tough Duke team. It got a bit chippy, but calling them trash just seems way over the top.

Hm, the way I see it, we've been watching VT jaw and take cheap shots for years... and at a certain point they've earned being called trash, and I will take particular pleasure in beating them:)

jv001
02-21-2010, 10:42 PM
Hm, the way I see it, we've been watching VT jaw and take cheap shots for years... and at a certain point they've earned being called trash, and I will take particular pleasure in beating them:)

I had rather call some of them just what they are, punks. Go Duke!

loldevilz
02-21-2010, 10:43 PM
If Lance and Z play well, we win, plain and simple. That's as much of a green light as you can expect at this point in the season.

I understand this. But I feel like we've sold ourselves short, because we have two fantastically talented bigs that are essentially doing nothing.

DukieInBrasil
02-21-2010, 10:44 PM
loldevilz:
your misLTony (LT hating) is completely off-base. LT is a decent though not great rebounder, an opportunistic scorer but not a consistent one. However, these comments could also be made about any of the three other options in the post; RK, MP I or MP II. However, LT is an excellent defender which you cannot say about any of the other 3. He understands Duke's D and allows others to play to their strengths but the other 3 are weak on D and require that the other players on the court cover their mistakes, reducing the strength of our D. LT has also shown to be a reliable FT shooter this year, another thing you cannot say about the other 3, only Miles shoots FTs at a remotely respectable rate. Why then should we turn to any of those 3 if LT can approximate their good qualities while also being superior to them in several other areas? Accept that LT does good things for the team, and that statistics alone do not tell the whole story.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:46 PM
Hm, the way I see it, we've been watching VT jaw and take cheap shots for years... and at a certain point they've earned being called trash, and I will take particular pleasure in beating them:)

I hear you, but I don't mind their style. If you're not the cream of the crop and you want to win, you have to fight and give maximum effort. You have to be scrappy, or chippy, or whatever "py" adjective works for you. Considering their recruiting rankings, VPI must have one of the best "return on investment" in the entire NCAA since they've been in the ACC. Personally, I respect that.

It was a good win tonight for the Devils.

jv001
02-21-2010, 10:47 PM
I understand this. But I feel like we've sold ourselves short, because we have two fantastically talented bigs that are essentially doing nothing.

Agree, but it's their own fault. In the limited minutes they get, they do nothing to impress. Fouls, out of place on defense, Miles fumbles the ball more than Adrian Peterson and neither have much of an offensive game. They are good role players when they don't get in foul trouble. Go Duke!

dukelifer
02-21-2010, 10:47 PM
This game felt like an NCAA game and it was good to see an ACC team push Duke at home. Duke did not play their best but kept it close and then had the run to break it open. This is what most tourney games are like. Zoubs was great again- just playing his game - staying in control. Good to see Singler heating up- his stroke is getting more consistent lately. Would have like to see the Plumlee boys contribute more- not quite sure what is going on there- but they have had their moments and can still turn it around- but need to do it soon. Tulsa will be an interesting test for Duke- perhaps that game will help to get some others on track. Duke still needs another consistent scorer.

roywhite
02-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Honest to God. K gives the plumlees opportunities. They just can't stop fouling. Fouls= bench for any player of any level of skill or experience. At some point, people have to accept that the Plumlees are given ample minutes and opportunity, but have simply not taken advantage of it.

Getting in foul trouble in just a few minutes played reflects more than just an ill-timed reach-in or two. It generally means someone is not ready for the level of the game...whether that be a function of skill, strength, or intensity. Look at the almost constant foul trouble Lance and Zoubs would get into in their early years. They just weren't ready to be players in big games, and the Plumlees look to be at that stage now.

There may be some games where they do contribute, but the consistency and confidence is not there. Lance and Zoubs are playing well and deserve the minutes.

Osiagledknarf
02-21-2010, 10:50 PM
Not the prettiest of wins, but a win is a win especially in the ACC. A few things to look at here however. Zoubek was the only good big tonight plain and simple. He really played well on both sides of the floor, and keeps on giving us that rebounding presence down low. Mason was horrendous tonight with a capital H. HE did nothing on both ends and was 0-1 from the field with 3 fouls. Not gonna cut it. Thomas didn't do anything on the offensive end at all, and picked up some foolish fouls, and Miles didn't do a hell of a lot either.


The Plumlee brother's were 0-1 with 1 point and 2 rebounds combined. :eek:

Hopefully they will be able to rebound against Tulsa which has MUCH less talented big man then them.

Good things form this game:

Nolan Smith keeps on being clutch down the stretch. He has been great down the stretch, which we will need in the tourney. Good stuff from him overall.

I like Singler keep on his hot pace with 25 points tonight.

It's remarkable that are big man do nothing and we still win by double digits vs the 2nd best team in the ACC.

It's scary what this team could do when clicking on all cylinders.

Now I hope to see in this game vs Tulsa more of Mason, Kelly and Dawkins to see if they can get there confidence up going into the stretch run.
Nolan Smith

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:50 PM
I understand this. But I feel like we've sold ourselves short, because we have two fantastically talented bigs that are essentially doing nothing.

They're only doing "nothing" because they foul too much and don't play good enough defense. If there's any blame to be allotted (and I'm not saying there is), it's all on them.

Have patience. When the light goes on (hopefully this year but most likely next) both Plumlee brothers are going to be fantastic. We're lucky to have Lance this year while we're waiting.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 10:54 PM
Now I hope to see in this game vs Tulsa more of Mason, Kelly and Dawkins to see if they can get there confidence up going into the stretch run.


And Miles. He seems to have lost his confidence, but if he can get back to the level he was playing back in November and December (or even the first half of January) we're a much better ream.

dairedevil
02-21-2010, 10:57 PM
This team seems to do a much better job with end of game time management than teams in the past have. I used to cringe when I saw K go to the slow down, only to watch a lead become way too close for comfort when we burned up the clock and had no points to show for it. Saw a couple of good possessions today, ending with a 3 in the last 5 seconds or so. Can't complain when that happens.

arnie
02-21-2010, 10:59 PM
He is better than any alternative.

Regarding Thomas, unfortunately you may be right. But, we must have some offensive contribution from that position, and he simply can't deliver. With Z playing better than I ever thought possible, maybe it won't matter as much. Just wish the Plumlees had shown some signs of offensive development by now.

soccerstud2210
02-21-2010, 11:02 PM
does anyone know if there were any recruits there tonight? it looked like there were two sitting behind the bench but i couldnt identify them

DevilHorns
02-21-2010, 11:02 PM
When Mason attempted that 3... I just shook my head. But the coaches didnt seem to care... I am surprised he has the green light for launching.

-bdbd
02-21-2010, 11:04 PM
They're only doing "nothing" because they foul too much and don't play good enough defense. If there's any blame to be allotted (and I'm not saying there is), it's all on them.

Have patience. When the light goes on (hopefully this year but most likely next) both Plumlee brothers are going to be fantastic. We're lucky to have Lance this year while we're waiting.

Yeah, but... I do not believe we can win it all w/o some of that bench depth represented by Mason and Miles. At some point we will need them to play, and to play well. The question is, when that happens will they answer the call.

Look, these are obviously talented kids. But we'll need them sometimne this year, and quite a lot next year. So hopefully that "light" comes on soon, as we absolutely will be needing their contributions to get where we want to go -- FF and NC. It'll be interesting to see what K and staff are doing this week and next to bring them back...

Go Duke!


(Great, gritty win!) Now let's enjoy MD and VPI taking each other out.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

arnie
02-21-2010, 11:06 PM
loldevilz:
your misLTony (LT hating) is completely off-base. LT is a decent though not great rebounder, an opportunistic scorer but not a consistent one. However, these comments could also be made about any of the three other options in the post; RK, MP I or MP II. However, LT is an excellent defender which you cannot say about any of the other 3. He understands Duke's D and allows others to play to their strengths but the other 3 are weak on D and require that the other players on the court cover their mistakes, reducing the strength of our D. LT has also shown to be a reliable FT shooter this year, another thing you cannot say about the other 3, only Miles shoots FTs at a remotely respectable rate. Why then should we turn to any of those 3 if LT can approximate their good qualities while also being superior to them in several other areas? Accept that LT does good things for the team, and that statistics alone do not tell the whole story.

Thomas scored 0 points tonite in about 30 minutes of action. To call him an opportunistic scorer is silly. He is an average rebounder this year, finally. I was at the game and watched his defense closely, he plays well, but not the lockdown type defender a.k.a. Billy King. Of course, I agree, when we have no other options at this position, he gets his minutes by default.

I continue to be amazed at the greatness of the 3 S's. They are carrying the team on their shoulders with help from Z. I think it will remarkable if they can carry us further than the sweet sixteen.

bleedingblue
02-21-2010, 11:13 PM
Looked like 2 recruits behind Cwell,went to locker room before and at half of the game.Anyone know?

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 11:18 PM
With all due respect I really don't think we've really explored any alternatives. Ryan is getting less than 5 minutes a game playing with Zoubs. He has shown potential, but K refuses to give him satisfactory minutes. Mason spends most of his time playing with Miles and they are a terrible combo even though everyone loves the idea of the "bash brothers".

As bad as Mason and Ryan's defense may be it seems like the lesser of two evils. Especially when we consistently have games where we have 1 basket from other than the Big 3. We consistently have games where we shoot 2 pointers at less than 30%, which means we are just taking jump shots. These seem to me like obvious RED LIGHTS.

You really should think about just sitting back quietly now.

greybeard
02-21-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm generally not a fan of an offense that doesn't create shots for everyone but I so enjoyed watching Duke on offense this game. Z was not just a monster on the boards and D, but he was amazing setting screens and then getting to the rim. I thought Singler was great, and Scheyer and Nolan were right behind him. Terrific win and a fun game to watch.

loran16
02-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Listen, I'm the biggest LT hater of anyone (I've gotten at least 4 infractions for destructively negative comments on LT). But are you really complaining about this?

Duke's biggest problem this year and last was that we had the big 3 (Last year, G-Scheyer-Singler, this year Nolan-Scheyer-Singler) and nothing else. Going into the Maryland game, we had bigs who could absorb fouls and would have flashes of strong play....but that's it.

Now, we've had 3 STRONG games from Z. If this continues, it's not just the big 3. It's the Big FOUR. That's a huge improvement. Whoever's our 2nd big man on the floor is just less of a worry.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 11:21 PM
When Mason attempted that 3... I just shook my head. But the coaches didnt seem to care... I am surprised he has the green light for launching.

His form isn't terrible. Those shots may not drop every time but I think we should be comfortable with at attempt every other game or so.

loldevilz
02-21-2010, 11:22 PM
You really should think about just sitting back quietly now.

Why don't you just say what I'm saying wrong? I obviously would like to see Mason and Ryan play more minutes with Zoubek, what in the world is wrong with that?

devilboomer
02-21-2010, 11:23 PM
His form isn't terrible. Those shots may not drop every time but I think we should be comfortable with at attempt every other game or so.

Agree. I think Mason is like 2/4 or 2/5 from behind the arc this season.

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 11:25 PM
Hopefully they will be able to rebound against Tulsa which has MUCH less talented big man then them.

Actually, Jerome Jordan will likely be the most talented big man on the court in that game. Don't sell Tulsa short.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 11:28 PM
Why don't you just say what I'm saying wrong? I obviously would like to see Mason and Ryan play more minutes with Zoubek, what in the world is wrong with that?

Gminski said it best during tonight's telecast: if you play great defense, you're not just a role player for Coach K. In your earlier post, you undervalued an injured Lance's gritty defensive play, and by saying that Mason or Ryan can play little defense but be the "lesser of two evils" you have appeared to be less than understanding of the critical nuances of the game. In real life, for all I know, you may be the most knowledgeable basketball guru in America, and of course I'm not Jumbo, but that's what I think he meant.

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 11:30 PM
Why don't you just say what I'm saying wrong? I obviously would like to see Mason and Ryan play more minutes with Zoubek, what in the world is wrong with that?

Because I've corrected you a bunch of times already. It's very clear that you don't understand the subtleties of the game, such as help defense or, you know, not fouling.

UrinalCake
02-21-2010, 11:30 PM
I can't believe they called a double technical, even after reviewing it. Basically the message they've sent to the ACC is that all you have to do is have one of your scrub players take a cheap shot at the other team's star player and the refs will call a double technical in order to send a warning to both teams. That was Nolan's fourth foul and could have seriously impacted the game, but fortunately he came up big afterwards.

I wish some of Andre's shots had fallen because it did seem like we were trying to get him some looks. But I also wish he would move more on offense, he just sort of stands around on the weak side and waits for his defender to help out on someone else so he can be open for a three...

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 11:35 PM
Why don't you just say what I'm saying wrong? I obviously would like to see Mason and Ryan play more minutes with Zoubek, what in the world is wrong with that?

I just saw Jumbo's plus/minus post for tonight's game, and we outscored VPI by 18 in Lance's 30 minutes (and were outscored by 6 in the 10 minutes he was not on the court). This is the simplest explanation for why at the present time Lance is a better option than Mason (-4 in 6 minutes) or Ryan (-4 in 2 minutes).

loldevilz
02-21-2010, 11:38 PM
I just saw Jumbo's plus/minus post for tonight's game, and we outscored VPI by 18 in Lance's 30 minutes (and were outscored by 6 in the 10 minutes he was not on the court). This is the simplest explanation for why at the present time Lance is a better option than Mason (-4 in 6 minutes) or Ryan (-4 in 2 minutes).

Thanks, if I wanted snarky comments I'd go to a carolina forum.

loran16
02-21-2010, 11:39 PM
I just saw Jumbo's plus/minus post for tonight's game, and we outscored VPI by 18 in Lance's 30 minutes (and were outscored by 6 in the 10 minutes he was not on the court). This is the simplest explanation for why at the present time Lance is a better option than Mason (-4 in 6 minutes) or Ryan (-4 in 2 minutes).


Eh, I agree with you....but it's a bad argument. +/- in this case has HUMONGOUS sample size issues. Lance played 30 minutes, which is obviously 3/4 of the game. Thus he got the benefit of the big 3 for a huge period of time, as well as Zoubek. +/- doesn't help with guys who play near the entire game, as well their +/- should be the same as the general score, which doesn't tell us anything.


Whereas Kelly's 2 minutes is way too short to make any analysis, and Mason's 6 really also.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 11:46 PM
Thanks, if I wanted snarky comments I'd go to a carolina forum.

Are you kidding? In what way was my post snarky?

bleedingblue
02-21-2010, 11:49 PM
Was at the game tonight and saw two young guys behind Cwell behind the bench and noticed they went in after pregame warmups and again at the half,one of the guys looked like Kyrie Irving anyone have any info on this?

Jumbo
02-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Thanks, if I wanted snarky comments I'd go to a carolina forum.

What Kedsy provided weren't "snarky comments." They are actually commonly known as "facts."

BlueintheFace
02-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Why don't you just say what I'm saying wrong? I obviously would like to see Mason and Ryan play more minutes with Zoubek, what in the world is wrong with that?

So many people (myself included... in this thread) already have

dukebluelemur
02-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Thanks, if I wanted snarky comments I'd go to a carolina forum.

That's not snarky, that's dispassionate and backed up with statistical evidence.... I don't know why you have such a crush on a player who really does not seem ready for the college game yet, in any way shape or form, but there's no sense getting your undergarments in a twist when people don't agree.

Stray Gator
02-21-2010, 11:55 PM
I don't know how much it showed on TV, but that was one brutally physical battle out there tonight. With about 5 or 6 minutes left in the game, our guys appeared to be completely beat up and exhausted--in fact, I wasn't sure they'd have enough left in the tank to hold off Sith's pit bulls. And it
was not encouraging to see so many shots falling short. But somehow, the S-sassins, with significant assistance from Zouberman, summoned enough adrenaline to finish strong, and the basketball players bested the bullies--even though the bullies were given extraordinary latitude by the officials to batter and bruise the home team. Some of that energy came from the Cameron crowd, which was about as loud and enthusiastic as I've seen for any game other than Carolina--inspired, perhaps, by a surprisingly large and vocal contingent of Hokie fans. But there are simply no words to describe the warrior that was Kyle Singler tonight. I don't know why he seemed to be having difficulty getting tuned in for the first half of this season, but he's certainly shown up big time in February. Maybe he's been pacing himself?

A very satisfying win for the Blue Devils! Now if we can get the Plumlees and Andre Dawkins back on track, this team just might be the one to reverse Duke's recent March misfortunes.

Kedsy
02-21-2010, 11:57 PM
Eh, I agree with you....but it's a bad argument. +/- in this case has HUMONGOUS sample size issues. Lance played 30 minutes, which is obviously 3/4 of the game. Thus he got the benefit of the big 3 for a huge period of time, as well as Zoubek. +/- doesn't help with guys who play near the entire game, as well their +/- should be the same as the general score, which doesn't tell us anything.


Whereas Kelly's 2 minutes is way too short to make any analysis, and Mason's 6 really also.

Well, I hear you on the sample size except the VaTech game was not an isolated incident. In our last 5 games (including VaTech), Lance has been +61 while Ryan has been -8 and Mason has been -6. True, Lance plays more minutes, but he clearly has earned those minutes by outperforming his youthful competition.

And you say Lance got the benefit of playing with the Big 3 for a huge period of time, but have you considered the possibility that they got the benefit of playing with him? The plus/minus figures suggest it's at least a possibility.

jimsumner
02-21-2010, 11:57 PM
"When Mason attempted that 3... I just shook my head. But the coaches didnt seem to care"

Mason came out at the next opportunity and did not return. He's 2-7 on 3s, this season. Duke has much better options for 3s. That's probably not Mason's best route to more playing time. Neither is picking up two fouls before breaking a sweat.

In general, I think beating the league's second place team by 12 points deserves a more positive response than it has received on this board. But kvetching seems to be so much more fun.

And anyone who thinks Lance Thomas isn't making solid contributions to this team simply isn't paying attention.

HateCarolina
02-22-2010, 12:01 AM
Looked like 2 recruits behind Cwell,went to locker room before and at half of the game.Anyone know?

Bump. I had the same question.

I also want to give my two cents on some of the other posts that I noticed in regards to VT's "chippy" play and referring to them as "trash". I have to agree that they are getting some of the best return on their recruiting investments, but Seth Greenberg is breeding a thuggish team when he let's them whine after calls and the cheap shot by Hudson was just typical for them. The refs let this game get out of hand and were not consistent in their calls around contact...interestingly enough it seemed like it was fairly evenly called between Duke and VT, but just not consistent in the level of contact allowed.

HateCarolina
02-22-2010, 12:03 AM
That's not snarky, that's dispassionate and backed up with statistical evidence.... I don't know why you have such a crush on a player who really does not seem ready for the college game yet, in any way shape or form, but there's no sense getting your undergarments in a twist when people don't agree.

Something in the water tonight? I have seen a lot of snarky comments out here tonight. Not trying to get in the middle of it or point any fingers, but show some respect. We're starting to sound like Roy Williams criticizing his own team....

loran16
02-22-2010, 12:05 AM
Well, I hear you on the sample size except the VaTech game was not an isolated incident. In our last 5 games (including VaTech), Lance has been +61 while Ryan has been -8 and Mason has been -6. True, Lance plays more minutes, but he clearly has earned those minutes by outperforming his youthful competition.


Not saying i disagree....but once again there's sample size issues there. Five games, when 2 of the guys in question don't have a total minutes of more than 40 minutes is not going to be a good +/- sample.



And you say Lance got the benefit of playing with the Big 3 for a huge period of time, but have you considered the possibility that they got the benefit of playing with him? The plus/minus figures suggest it's at least a possibility.

Oh of Course. Except it's just as equally the other way around (as i originally stated it), which means the +/- doesn't show us one way or another. And when Zoubek would be top in the NCAAs (or tied with Cousins prior to this game) in Offensive Rebound %, if he qualified (see kenpom.com), I choose to think he's been the bigger factor.

Lance played better than the plumlees today, but he made some bonehead fouls himself, and didn't really wow us at any time on O or D (he took one charge). The other 4 did.

phaedrus
02-22-2010, 12:06 AM
Are you kidding? In what way was my post snarky?

I think he was actually sincerely thanking you and referring to Jumbo as snarky.

BlueintheFace
02-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Stepping back for a minute, man, what a great win. Duke is now in great position to win the ACC. GREAT position.

Now for your viewing pleasure, a quote from Seth:


He’s a mountain masquerading as a man. The guy is a huge human being

- Seth on Z

Jumbo
02-22-2010, 12:08 AM
I think he was actually sincerely thanking you and referring to Jumbo as snarky.

Me? Snarky? Never ... ;)

OZZIE4DUKE
02-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Was at the game tonight and saw two young guys behind Cwell behind the bench and noticed they went in after pregame warmups and again at the half,one of the guys looked like Kyrie Irving anyone have any info on this?
Could he/they have been the JUCO guy(s) we're recruiting? I think this is the game he was coming to for his official visit.

gotham devil
02-22-2010, 12:26 AM
Was at the game tonight and saw two young guys behind Cwell behind the bench and noticed they went in after pregame warmups and again at the half,one of the guys looked like Kyrie Irving anyone have any info on this?
I'm not sure how close you were, but it was not Kyrie Irving.

duke=legacy
02-22-2010, 12:41 AM
I believe I saw Marshall Plumlee.

sagegrouse
02-22-2010, 12:51 AM
VT had only four assists for 19 FGs. Isn't this the mark of a good defense? Or a really poor offense?

sagegrouse

dukeblue1206
02-22-2010, 12:59 AM
I heard Michael Haynes was there, so that was probably one of them

ncexnyc
02-22-2010, 12:59 AM
Another gutsy win.

Kyle definitely seems to be getting more comfortable in his new position. He is no longer driving into the teeth of the defense and getting stripped, which resulted in easy transition baskets for the other team.

Jon continues to show people that you don't have to break someone off at the ankles to get to the rim.

Nolan has become Mr Clutch. He definitely relishes having the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock.

Brian has now strung together 3 outstanding games. I'm just wondering can he hang against a mobile big man, especially since it appears both Mason and Miles have seriously regressed.

Lance was solid as usual.

Nice to see Dre getting some decent minutes. Can someone please return his jumpshot. We do need some scoring help off the bench.

Ryan get a few minutes, but this wasn't a good match-up for him.

Mason and Miles, well what can you say? Is it just me, or do we get burned on several transition baskets whenever they're in the game? I can cut Mason some slack for being a Freshman, but Miles has been around the block once already and should be giving us more than he is.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-22-2010, 01:11 AM
I hear you, but I don't mind their style. If you're not the cream of the crop and you want to win, you have to fight and give maximum effort. You have to be scrappy, or chippy, or whatever "py" adjective works for you. Considering their recruiting rankings, VPI must have one of the best "return on investment" in the entire NCAA since they've been in the ACC. Personally, I respect that.

It was a good win tonight for the Devils.


I agree with you. Normally I respect Seth Greenberg and the VT program. He did good in pulling Bell as soon as he got mouthy. I can understand frustration in losing traction in a game you need to win, but if you can't control your emotions you don't belong on the court.

I lost a little respect for Seth Greenberg and VT in the way that Hudson wasn't reprimanded or instantly pulled to the bench. He crossed the line... and Seth left him in because he was too valuable a player to lose in an extremely important game for them.

But that makes me lose a bit of respect for him and his program. Yet that aside, Greenberg and VT are usually a classy program.

Greg_Newton
02-22-2010, 01:54 AM
I just love this picture:

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics31/800/JW/JWFNNVQJYQBFRFE.20100222041037.JPG

I can't decide if it looks more like a little kid jumping on his dad or an ent being attacked by an orc...:D

gumbomoop
02-22-2010, 01:59 AM
Me? Snarky? Never ... ;)

J, I do believe you have confused yourself. I'm confident that you meant to say: "Me, irascibly snarky? Regularly. Cuddly? Almost never."

Having, I trust, gotten you straightened out on that, I move on to the more general snarkiness issue, which I tend to think of as friendly fire. It does sometimes seem that one needs to warn folks to "Duck!" even more when we win than when we lose. This is unsettling, to me at least

I'm pondering why this is [the friendly fire, not my unsettled reaction]. Various hypotheses come to mind:

1. We really like - are universally passionately committed to - our Devils, but Internet anonymity allows us to snark each other, snarkily and regularly, when our fellow posters fail to see the bball genius that most of us are certain we possess. [Starting, I admit, with me.]
2. Recent frustrating finishes in NCAAT have left all of us, the Duke Entitled Ones, pretty snarky. But do check out I[diot]C, if you have a month or 2 free, if you want to see some uber-snarkiness. Are we sure we even want to inhabit the same Snarkiness Cosmos as those Idiots? Talk about friendly fire.
3. And most interesting to me [Note that I have just congratulated myself on announcing an interesting idea.....], this year's Devils are kinda weirdly assembled, thus encouraging all manner of analyses re what's good, bad, what works, doesn't/never will.
4. That is, this team maybe has some unusual characteristics that fairly beg to be dissected to death: (a) 3-S, sometimes real close [tonight!] to our total O; (b) 2 other seniors finally, finally contributing meaningfully, but (c) a bit awkwardly, so that even their obvious [LT] and welcome rising up [Z,Z,Z] is countered by blatant irritants, such as (d) bad footwork, maddening bringing ball down, flailing leg movement; (e) very, very young bench players who have exhibited, very intermittently, wonderful signs of promise, but rather more regularly, dismaying signs of lostness, which, quite naturally, (f) feeds into the K's-short-rotation debate, which circles back to #2 above, along with related (g) 3-S exhaustion debate, itself (h) weird, in that this year we got 3 guys, not just 1 or 2, playing mega-mega-minutes.
5. This is a weird team. I think I'm serious. This team seems a good bit more of an outlier than we can easily come to terms with. They're driving us nuts. They fairly invite us to maul each other verbally. They gotta lot of explaining to do if they fail to win, and maybe even if they fail to win by doing what we want them to do. They gotta win somewhat more normal-like. Or we're gonna kill each other.
6. Most posters are a bit weird [I'd wager a few Significant Others have gingerly noted this], and, like the aforementioned Jumbo [remember him?], inclined to be a tad irascible and not so cuddly when, weirdly, our very happiness seems to depend upon our Entitledness being satisfied, and real soon.


7. Have a nice day.
8. And "Duck!"

Kewlswim
02-22-2010, 02:08 AM
Hi,

Both MP2 and Andre are freshman, so is Ryan. It is important to note that it takes some time to get things going.Bobby Hurley, Johnny Dawkins, etc. all had their bad moments as freshman. For freshmen the light-bulb goes on and it often goes off just as fast. Then, one day, for some it stays on and they go and do great things. Mason had a broken hand that set him back. Andre had a death in the family. Ryan was not expected to be a major contributor. So, give these guys a break. They are trying hard and need our support.

MP1 falls into a slightly different category. Yes, he is a sophomore. However, he came to Duke when Stanford's coach bolted for LSU. If I remember correctly he was not as highly touted. He was not projected to have the skills of his brother. He may take a while longer to get "it" on a consistent basis.

To add to the problem, bigger players take a while longer to "get it." So, MP1, MP2, and Ryan will probably take a bit longer to be consistent than say a guard. Andre came to school early and he had that death in the family. So, I give him a lot of credit for even being out there.

It would be nice if a lot of folks would enjoy our wins, but I guess fretting is a fan's prerogative.

GO DUKE!

gumbomoop
02-22-2010, 02:47 AM
Wait. I forgot some obvious weirdness:

9. We got a PG who isn't, can't be, but is among leading PGs in nation.
10. We're "amazingly unathletic," especially the aformentioned PG, who is so unathletic that he makes plays he cannot make. I'm desperately trying to remember the opponent, the recent game, Md, I think, when at the 7:21 mark of 2d half [the exact second I can remember, so amazed was I, yet the opponent..... who cares], JS made an absolutely amazing right-to-left-45-degree-drive, put the ball up to board, from slightly under the plane of the rim, with right hand, but with reverse spin, so that the ball spun with absolutely brilliant English, hung, reverse-spinning, for just a half-second, and dropped through. A brilliant shot, but done at "normal" rather than "athletic blur" speed, so it looked, well, almost pedestrian, rather than what it was: breathtaking hand-eye-athleticism. JS is an amazing, but significantly different, weird, one might say, athletic guy.
11. Our only perimeter sub is a post-grad-high school senior.

MB in MD
02-22-2010, 02:57 AM
I'm in a way different time zone and didn't see the game, but one thing that stands out for me in the box score is ONE SHOT for Z. In a game in which he was otherwise dominant, and so obviously on the floor and involved. This is just astounding. Was there something special about the VT D that made it impossible to get the ball inside? Recently at least Zoubek has been pretty good at being able to get into position to score. Did they push him out (seems unlikely)? Or is this on the guards? Still, you would think that with 8 ORs Z would have had a little more opportunity to score.

Emeritus
02-22-2010, 04:03 AM
SO proud of our "S-Kickers" who kicked some V-Tech butt. By the way I learned that Hokie is an ancient Indian word that means "Thug in short pants"
I am also very happy that a few weeks back Wojo put new batteries in "Big Z"
because he is now playing like a man possessed. Even though some of the games have been cardiac stress tests, I really love this team. I like it that there is no quit and no "back down" in these guys, and damn if Kyle doesn't look like a rowdy pirate with that shiner!! Since I am new here and still a probie, I will not even attempt any "snarky"...I'll just say "goodnight Jon-boy".
GO DUKE....

Battery
02-22-2010, 04:05 AM
I used to like Seth Greenberg. Then he added those cheeky comments at halftime about how he expected his players getting 2 fouls each during warmups. Then his whiny body language about every single foul suggested that he thought he was getting a raw deal. And then he whined even more about the double-foul when it was clear that his player kinda threw a punch when he should have been happy he didn't get ejected.

Now if you want to complain about calls and ride the refs, do it. See K, GW etc. etc. Nobody likes a whiner.

I also remember him a couple of years ago complaining about his players getting poked in the eye at CIS when inbounding on the sidelines. I'm pretty sure it was him. Waah waah waah.

This is Cameron homie. Where your boys should learn to become men. Deal with it.

cf-62
02-22-2010, 04:15 AM
I hear you, but I don't mind their style. If you're not the cream of the crop and you want to win, you have to fight and give maximum effort. You have to be scrappy, or chippy, or whatever "py" adjective works for you. Considering their recruiting rankings, VPI must have one of the best "return on investment" in the entire NCAA since they've been in the ACC. Personally, I respect that.

It was a good win tonight for the Devils.

There is "fighting" to win games, be scrappy, and there's:

* Encouraging boorish behavior from your fans any time you play Duke
* Dismissing said behavior afterward because "well, the students are intimidating at Cameron"
* Putting thugs on Redick and essentially just knocking him down over and over (and this is a family FRIEND) seeing if JJ would snap
* Deron Washington
* Jeff Allen (how many games has this guy been ejected from?)

Where there's smoke, there's fire. I think trash is one way to describe, although it could be seen as too condescending :-). I prefer thug - punk comes to mind, too.

All you have to do is look at Jeff Allen's last two fouls. Foul 3 -- he clipped Nolan on the top of the head - but he took an awfully big swipe. He really didn't care what he hit as long as he got something.

Foul 4 -- Zoubek scoring his only bucket, Allen just flat out hit him. Just a forearm to the shoulder essentially after the shot was made. These are not plays of a scrappy player. They are thuggery.

After just watching the Hudson thing, it sure looked like he slapped Nolan in the face, which got 1st team all-ACC McClinton ejected last year. However, that was something that Hudson and Nolan had been escalating themselves for a while. If nothing else, at least Seth can't spend the next 3 days whining about his player being ejected.

NYC Duke Fan
02-22-2010, 05:08 AM
Who is Michael Haynes?

Used to be a CB for the Patriots .

roywhite
02-22-2010, 07:00 AM
I'm in a way different time zone and didn't see the game, but one thing that stands out for me in the box score is ONE SHOT for Z. In a game in which he was otherwise dominant, and so obviously on the floor and involved. This is just astounding. Was there something special about the VT D that made it impossible to get the ball inside? Recently at least Zoubek has been pretty good at being able to get into position to score. Did they push him out (seems unlikely)? Or is this on the guards? Still, you would think that with 8 ORs Z would have had a little more opportunity to score.

Interesting observation, MB. Don't know whether it's the result of coaching or Zoub's own inclination, but he's not looking to score very often. On the offensive rebounds, he grabs them firmly and quickly gets rid of the ball, often to an (open) perimeter player. As Coach K said, if we hit more of those shots, the game would have gone much better or "down the yellow brick road."

I'd like to see more scoring from other than the Big Three, but I'm not sure I'd change much from the way Zoubs is playing now. His defense and rebounding have been superb. He's not getting stripped of the ball or blocked as often, and he's avoiding foul trouble. Generally speaking, if he continues on his rebounding tear, there'll be a few easy shots available in future games.

roywhite
02-22-2010, 07:17 AM
Who is Michael Haynes?

Used to be a CB for the Patriots .

http://rivals.yahoo.com/islandathlete/basketball/recruiting/player-Michael-Haynes-59879

Hadn't heard much about him, but apparently another prospect being turned up as a result of the "wide net" approach. Powerful inside player, transferred to prep school from Chicago area, and would be another 2010 recruit.

Saratoga2
02-22-2010, 07:39 AM
Another gutsy win.

Kyle definitely seems to be getting more comfortable in his new position. He is no longer driving into the teeth of the defense and getting stripped, which resulted in easy transition baskets for the other team.

Jon continues to show people that you don't have to break someone off at the ankles to get to the rim.

Nolan has become Mr Clutch. He definitely relishes having the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock.

Brian has now strung together 3 outstanding games. I'm just wondering can he hang against a mobile big man, especially since it appears both Mason and Miles have seriously regressed.



Lance was solid as usual.

Nice to see Dre getting some decent minutes. Can someone please return his jumpshot. We do need some scoring help off the bench.

Ryan get a few minutes, but this wasn't a good match-up for him.

Mason and Miles, well what can you say? Is it just me, or do we get burned on several transition baskets whenever they're in the game? I can cut Mason some slack for being a Freshman, but Miles has been around the block once already and should be giving us more than he is.

I noticed both Plumlees returning to defense on the jog and not getting back in time, whereas Lance was returning at the sprint to get back to his man. This is not the first time I noticed the Plumlees not making a strong effort transitioning to defense.

slower
02-22-2010, 08:01 AM
I agree with you. Normally I respect Seth Greenberg and the VT program. He did good in pulling Bell as soon as he got mouthy. I can understand frustration in losing traction in a game you need to win, but if you can't control your emotions you don't belong on the court.

I lost a little respect for Seth Greenberg and VT in the way that Hudson wasn't reprimanded or instantly pulled to the bench. He crossed the line... and Seth left him in because he was too valuable a player to lose in an extremely important game for them.

But that makes me lose a bit of respect for him and his program. Yet that aside, Greenberg and VT are usually a classy program.

He did NOT pull Bell as soon as he got mouthy. Bell had been acting out for several possessions before he was pulled. Have to disagree that VT is "usually a classy program". Not even close. Seth's body language and facial expressions are bad examples for his players.

GODUKEGO
02-22-2010, 08:33 AM
Thank you!!! Two guys sitting about 60 feet from me last night. They were not Crazies because they did not applaud when we scored. I recognized him but could not place him. Googled him and came across this picture and it was him.

http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/pcec/41363/

Duvall
02-22-2010, 08:47 AM
Yet that aside, Greenberg and VT are usually a classy program.

Wait, when did this happen? Because Greenberg has been a whiny chump since 2005 at least.

HokieEngineer
02-22-2010, 08:55 AM
He did NOT pull Bell as soon as he got mouthy. Bell had been acting out for several possessions before he was pulled. Have to disagree that VT is "usually a classy program". Not even close. Seth's body language and facial expressions are bad examples for his players.

The Duke players--particularly Zoubek--made the plays necessary down the stretch to win an ugly game.

Now to the "classy/not classy" comments. I think you guys are wearing some serious blue and white glasses if you think that Duke was innocent out there. It was a rough, physical game and there was plenty going on both ways.

78Devil
02-22-2010, 08:56 AM
What were the Crazies up to? Anything different to respond to some of Greenberg's pregame comments?

Its just too bad that the TV coverage doesn't show some of the fun stuff.

CDu
02-22-2010, 09:01 AM
Obviously anytime you can beat an upper-tier ACC team by double-digits, that's a good win. It wasn't pretty, but it was still a win.

I can't say how pleased I am with how Zoubek has played since becoming the starter. He's averaging 9.7 points, 12.7 rebounds(!) and 1.7 assists per game in those three games. And he's been able to avoid the bad fouls and turnovers that plagued him the past, which has allowed him to show his skills. He was just fantastic last night - setting screens to free up shooters, rebounding the ball like a madman, and quickly swinging the ball to a shooter when catching off-balance rebounds. If he can keep this up, we're a very different team down the stretch.

Great defensive effort from Smith on Delaney. Smith really took VT's leading scorer out of it for much of the first half. Eventually, Delaney got his points, but he had to work very hard to get them. And another great effort from Singler and Scheyer. Not much more to say about them than that.

The only downside I can see from this game was the play of the Plumlees. The two combined for only 2 rebounds and 1 point in 14 minutes, and committed 4 fouls and 2 turnovers in that stretch as well. Miles has completely disappeared in February, averaging 1.5 points, 2.5 rebounds, and 2.2 fouls per game. Mason seemed to be figuring things out with three straight solid efforts (BC, UNC, Md). But he's reverted to some of his bad habits in the last two games.

Hopefully the Plumlees can show improvement down the stretch. But at least we're getting major contributions from Zoubek now, which helps offset some of the need for the Plumlees.

In any case, we got the big win, and hopefully we can distance ourselves from the pack a bit this week (maybe VT can beat Maryland at home).

moonpie23
02-22-2010, 09:01 AM
His form isn't terrible. Those shots may not drop every time but I think we should be comfortable with at attempt every other game or so.

well, i see more "hesitation-if-i-take-this-shot-and-don't-make-it-coach-will-yank-me" syndrome...

the owner of the MAson Plumlee dome WANTS to take that shot and is left open enough for him to try it comfortably.....why NOT??

if he can develop that shot with reasonable success, that's a formidable weapon for his position.

Coaching staf should just say, "mason, you get a 1-1 situation.....you make that shot, you can take it again till you miss"

airowe
02-22-2010, 09:01 AM
I think we've got our swagger back. Between Kyle's tongue wagging and mimicking the swirls around the rim of that three that somehow went in and Nolan not backing down from Hudson when he was up in his face, our guys seem to really enjoy playing the game these days. Its really fun to watch.

We've got a mountain masquerading as a man in Zoubek, and some great depth down low to go long with the 2nd highest scoring trio in the country.

We are 23-4, in the Top 10 in both polls, in the Top 3 in all computer rankings, in position for a #1 or #2 seed in the tourney, and sitting pretty atop the ACC. We beat carolina in the Nose Dome, and are poised to sweep them on Senior Night in OUR HOUSE!

I don't know about you all, but I'm enjoying this ride. The wheels aren't falling off either. I mentioned 2 of our big 3 above who seem to have a new fire lit under them and yet they play way too many minutes. We rely too heavily on perimeter shooting, yet we just beat the #5 defensive team in the country with only 3 guards scoring mainly from the outside. We can't shoot well, but we're one of the best offensive rebounding teams out there and we're the 10th highest scoring team in the country. For all the things we do wrong, we do something right to counteract it on most nights. Who would've thought a team with no point guard, only 3 guards on the roster, had just lost its two most athletic slashers, and with a bunch of role players down low could be performing at this level?

I think we've got a lot of games left to play this season, but I'm enjoying each one more than the last. I hope you can too.

Rudy
02-22-2010, 09:02 AM
Wait, when did this happen? Because Greenberg has been a whiny chump since 2005 at least.

I don't begrude the "whining". When your own coach complains about calls it's "intelligently working the refs". When the opposing coach does the same thing it's "whining".*

What annoys me about Greenburg is that he clearly does not discourage the thuggery between games since it keeps coming up, game after game and season after season.


*A couple decades ago UVa's coach Terry Holland joked that he named his dog "Dean" because it whined so much. I've been a Holland fan ever since, even though he was forced to apologize to Saint Dean.

slower
02-22-2010, 09:02 AM
The Duke players--particularly Zoubek--made the plays necessary down the stretch to win an ugly game.

Now to the "classy/not classy" comments. I think you guys are wearing some serious blue and white glasses if you think that Duke was innocent out there. It was a rough, physical game and there was plenty going on both ways.

We didn't say Duke was "innocent". It's about the tone of your team and the top-down bad example set by your coach.

FerryFor50
02-22-2010, 09:03 AM
The Duke players--particularly Zoubek--made the plays necessary down the stretch to win an ugly game.

Now to the "classy/not classy" comments. I think you guys are wearing some serious blue and white glasses if you think that Duke was innocent out there. It was a rough, physical game and there was plenty going on both ways.

Yea, because our players were out there swiping at your guys' faces. :rolleyes:

FerryFor50
02-22-2010, 09:06 AM
I don't begrude the "whining". When your own coach complains about calls it's "intelligently working the refs". When the opposing coach does the same thing it's "whining".*

What annoys me about Greenburg is that he clearly does not discourage the thuggery between games since it keeps coming up, game after game and season after season.


*A couple decades ago UVa's coach Terry Holland joked that he named his dog "Dean" because it whined so much. I've been a Holland fan ever since, even though he was forced to apologize to Saint Dean.

I don't recall the last time I heard Coach K complain about the refs at halftime or during a postgame interview. I also don't recall the last time I saw a Duke player take a swipe at an opposing player's face and then see Coach K act like his guy did nothing wrong... You can work the refs all you want *during* the game, but whining to the media is in poor form.

CDu
02-22-2010, 09:13 AM
I'm in a way different time zone and didn't see the game, but one thing that stands out for me in the box score is ONE SHOT for Z. In a game in which he was otherwise dominant, and so obviously on the floor and involved. This is just astounding. Was there something special about the VT D that made it impossible to get the ball inside? Recently at least Zoubek has been pretty good at being able to get into position to score. Did they push him out (seems unlikely)? Or is this on the guards? Still, you would think that with 8 ORs Z would have had a little more opportunity to score.

VT plays a very physical style, and Zoubek didn't get many touches in close to the basket. He did get some touches on the block, but he was too far from the basket to attack off the dribble without risking getting stripped (VT stripped him once or twice). So instead, he was involving himself in the offense by setting a TON of screens and getting a ton of offensive rebounds.

Many of his rebounds were on longer rebounds (we attempted a lot of long jumpers), so he wasn't often in position for a putback. In fact, his only points were via an offensive rebound, in which he got the ball in great position.

But the bigs as a group attempted only six shots, and one of those was an ill-advised three by Mason. I think the gameplan was to get the ball to our big three on the move and take what the defense gives you. And what the defense gave us was a lot of open 3s and not a lot of looks for the bigs.

HokieEngineer
02-22-2010, 09:14 AM
Yea, because our players were out there swiping at your guys' faces. :rolleyes:

Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

jgehtland
02-22-2010, 09:15 AM
I'm in a way different time zone and didn't see the game, but one thing that stands out for me in the box score is ONE SHOT for Z. In a game in which he was otherwise dominant, and so obviously on the floor and involved. This is just astounding. Was there something special about the VT D that made it impossible to get the ball inside? Recently at least Zoubek has been pretty good at being able to get into position to score. Did they push him out (seems unlikely)? Or is this on the guards? Still, you would think that with 8 ORs Z would have had a little more opportunity to score.

Z was extremely happy to pass it back out tonight. They were fronting him a lot with Allen and Davila, both guys with REALLY long arms, so that "over the top because nobody else but Z can reach it" pass wasn't available. The three entry passes to him that I saw ended up with him outside the paint each time (as he continues to get pushed 2-3 feet as the ball is coming in every single time -- push back, big fella!). So, other than those entries which left him out of scoring position, his other touches were all on the high screen looking to hit the cutter or off of rebounds. The only shot he took was off an offensive board where he was point blank. His other offensive rebounds came over somebody (and he was therefore effectively defended already) or, interestingly, due to hustle and running them down (saw three or four of those) so ended up outside the paint with the ball.

We flashed a look to pass it in several times, but nobody seemed comfortable that he was being fronted by the long-armed trees, so it wasn't tried very much.

However, I did see one very nice seal by Mason that wasn't rewarded and two separate times when Miles set a nice pick and had a clear path on the roll to the hoop but the guard with the ball looked weakside to the cutting three-point shooter instead. That must have been frustrating.

moonpie23
02-22-2010, 09:27 AM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

dood.....PUHLEEEEZE.......just stop..


hudson was doing he share all through the game.......he just lost his cool and nolan (3-point dagger in your team's face) did not..

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 09:31 AM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

Nolan was jawing, but standing perfectly still. Hudson walked all the way across the court to begin the confrontation. You're an engineer - could Hudson have hit him from 30 feet away? I think not. In order to hit his he had to make a decison to walk over there.

FerryFor50
02-22-2010, 09:33 AM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

There's a difference between "jawing" and "hitting." As a Hokies fan, I do not expect you to understand this.

Nolan doesn't jaw normally, so Hudson probably goaded him into it. Had it been Singler, I could see your point, but Nolan rarely does anything like that.

CDu
02-22-2010, 09:36 AM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

Nolan was was wrong for excessive jawing. Hudson was much more wrong for excessive jawing AND taking a swipe at another player's face. There's a major difference. I would hope you can see the distinction.

flyingdutchdevil
02-22-2010, 09:38 AM
Nolan was was wrong for excessive jawing. Hudson was much more wrong for excessive jawing AND taking a swipe at another player's face. There's a major difference. I would hope you can see the distinction.

Agreed. It takes two to tango, but only one to throw a sucker punch.

jimsumner
02-22-2010, 09:38 AM
"well, i see more "hesitation-if-i-take-this-shot-and-don't-make-it-coach-will-yank-me" syndrome...

the owner of the MAson Plumlee dome WANTS to take that shot and is left open enough for him to try it comfortably.....why NOT??"

I think you're missing some context here. I'm pretty sure the Duke coaches and Mason Plumlee have had some conversations about the ways Mason can best help this team. I'm pretty sure taking threes ten seconds into the shot clock isn't one of those. Duke wants Mason to hit the glass, set screens, be available for passes close to the basket, even post up in the right matchup presents itself.

But shooting threes is not part of his arensal right now. Down the road, sure it will be an asset. But he should develop that shot in practice before hoisting it down the stretch in a tight, important, late-season ACC game.

He wasn't pulled because he missed the shot. He was pulled because it wasn't a desirable shot to take under the circumstances. And because eh wasn't doing anything else to justify his minutes.

CDu
02-22-2010, 09:40 AM
Agreed. It takes two to tango, but only one to throw a sucker punch.

I wouldn't call what Hudson did a sucker punch. It was more of a shove to the face. But otherwise, yeah.

FerryFor50
02-22-2010, 09:42 AM
"well, i see more "hesitation-if-i-take-this-shot-and-don't-make-it-coach-will-yank-me" syndrome...

the owner of the MAson Plumlee dome WANTS to take that shot and is left open enough for him to try it comfortably.....why NOT??"

I think you're missing some context here. I'm pretty sure the Duke coaches and Mason Plumlee have had some conversations about the ways Mason can best help this team. I'm pretty sure taking threes ten seconds into the shot clock isn't one of those. Duke wants Mason to hit the glass, set screens, be available for passes close to the basket, even post up in the right matchup presents itself.

But shooting threes is not part of his arensal right now. Down the road, sure it will be an asset. But he should develop that shot in practice before hoisting it down the stretch in a tight, important, late-season ACC game.

He wasn't pulled because he missed the shot. He was pulled because it wasn't a desirable shot to take under the circumstances. And because eh wasn't doing anything else to justify his minutes.

Exactly.

And Mason took that shot out of impatience. He seemed frustrated that he wasn't getting the ball down low, so he jacked up the first open look he had. He needs to let the game come to him...

CDu
02-22-2010, 09:44 AM
"well, i see more "hesitation-if-i-take-this-shot-and-don't-make-it-coach-will-yank-me" syndrome...

the owner of the MAson Plumlee dome WANTS to take that shot and is left open enough for him to try it comfortably.....why NOT??"

I think you're missing some context here. I'm pretty sure the Duke coaches and Mason Plumlee have had some conversations about the ways Mason can best help this team. I'm pretty sure taking threes ten seconds into the shot clock isn't one of those. Duke wants Mason to hit the glass, set screens, be available for passes close to the basket, even post up in the right matchup presents itself.

But shooting threes is not part of his arensal right now. Down the road, sure it will be an asset. But he should develop that shot in practice before hoisting it down the stretch in a tight, important, late-season ACC game.

He wasn't pulled because he missed the shot. He was pulled because it wasn't a desirable shot to take under the circumstances. And because eh wasn't doing anything else to justify his minutes.

Exactly. It's not about results with Mason right now. It's about decision-making. He's just not making very good decisions on the floor right now. If he starts making good decisions, we'll start to see better results (i.e., fewer fouls, more minutes, and hopefully more great plays).

Mason just hasn't seemed to figure out what he needs to do to stay on the floor. Hopefully that will come. But taking a 3 with a lot of time on the shot clock is not a good decision right now.

CLT Devil
02-22-2010, 09:52 AM
It seemed to me that Delaney really wanted to take over that game, but was frustrated by what his teammates were doing, mainly not catching the ball when he delivered it under the basket wide open or just plain finishing a shot on a nice assist by Delaney. Watching him away from the ball reminds me of some of the recent ACC greats that could take over a game with their sheer speed and talent; Tim Pickett, Jack McClinton, Sean Singletary and even Vasquez. It's almost like Delaney is too talented for his players and has to slow his game down. I feel like if he had just started firing away earlier it could have ended badly.

What happened to Jeff Allen? IIRC he was the ACC Rookie of the Year? It seems like he has regressed...maybe he has the 'Brandon Costner Syndrome.'

Lastly, I hate Seth Greenberg. I was there for his first game in Cameron as VT coach where he got ejected and then 'assaulted' by the crazies, to the heartbreak Dockery shot to Deron Washington losing his mind...and now his slamming the 'Crazies. Lurch.

Neals384
02-22-2010, 09:56 AM
Eh, I agree with you....but it's a bad argument. +/- in this case has HUMONGOUS sample size issues. Lance played 30 minutes, which is obviously 3/4 of the game. Thus he got the benefit of the big 3 for a huge period of time, as well as Zoubek. +/- doesn't help with guys who play near the entire game, as well their +/- should be the same as the general score, which doesn't tell us anything.




OK, here's a trend on Lance. The last three games since his injury, Duke is
152 - 98 (+54) with Lance on the court, and 59 - 68 (-9) with Lance on the banch.

Enough of a sample size to conclude that, lately, Duke is a much better team with Lance on the court.

whereinthehellami
02-22-2010, 10:00 AM
I hear you, but I don't mind their style. If you're not the cream of the crop and you want to win, you have to fight and give maximum effort. You have to be scrappy, or chippy, or whatever "py" adjective works for you. Considering their recruiting rankings, VPI must have one of the best "return on investment" in the entire NCAA since they've been in the ACC. Personally, I respect that.

It was a good win tonight for the Devils.

I agree completely. VT does more with less than any other team I've seen. You don't win games with thugs when you have less talent than the other teams you are playing. You win games by having tougher players than the other teams with the talent. That is what the Hokies do. With that said, Hudson was clearly frustrated and crossed the line last night but I've watched the Hokies play a few games this year and have not seen him act like that before. I'm wondering if Hudson and Smith have some prior history, Hudson balled in VA in HS.

This was a good game for Duke to play and win. Most teams play Duke physical as Duke has more talent, so they have to. Duke will play physical teams like this in the tourney but those teams will have more talent. So VT and its style of play was good for Duke IMO.

CDu
02-22-2010, 10:05 AM
It seemed to me that Delaney really wanted to take over that game, but was frustrated by what his teammates were doing, mainly not catching the ball when he delivered it under the basket wide open or just plain finishing a shot on a nice assist by Delaney. Watching him away from the ball reminds me of some of the recent ACC greats that could take over a game with their sheer speed and talent; Tim Pickett, Jack McClinton, Sean Singletary and even Vasquez. It's almost like Delaney is too talented for his players and has to slow his game down. I feel like if he had just started firing away earlier it could have ended badly.

Yeah, Delaney is a prolific scorer, but I think he's more like McClinton and Pickett than a Vazquez or (to a lesser degree) Singletary. He's just not a great distributor. It's a really difficult skill to be able to be an elite scorer and a true playmaker. It requires a lot of patience and vision. Delaney gets his share of assists, but that's more a function of being given such responsibility of the offense.

I felt coming into the game that we would win if we kept everyone else in check and forced Delaney to try to win it himself. That's basically the way it played out. Even though we struggled offensively, we held the rest of VT to 36 points. It would have taken a truly magnificent game for Delaney to have won it for them, even considering how poorly we shot offensively.


What happened to Jeff Allen? IIRC he was the ACC Rookie of the Year? It seems like he has regressed...maybe he has the 'Brandon Costner Syndrome.'

That's a great question. He had a very solid freshman year and an even better sophomore year. And then this year he's regressed. I'm not really sure what the deal is. But on a team that needs him to step up and be the leader in the post to complement Delaney on the perimeter, he's been a bit of a disappointment for them this year.

HokieEngineer
02-22-2010, 10:08 AM
There's a difference between "jawing" and "hitting." As a Hokies fan, I do not expect you to understand this.

Nolan doesn't jaw normally, so Hudson probably goaded him into it. Had it been Singler, I could see your point, but Nolan rarely does anything like that.

Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

roywhite
02-22-2010, 10:08 AM
This was a good game for Duke to play and win. Most teams play Duke physical as Duke has more talent, so they have to. Duke will play physical teams like this in the tourney but those teams will have more talent. So VT and its style of play was good for Duke IMO.

Interestingly (and I noted this in another thread), many teams have employed a physical style against Duke this year and not won; UConn, Florida State, Clemson, Wake Forest, VaTech, etc., etc.

The path to success has been through "pretty" basketball...good ball movement, good quality shots, and hot shooting...see NC State and Georgetown.

We seem better prepared this year for the physical type games we often see in the NCAA tournament.

DukeUsul
02-22-2010, 10:09 AM
Exactly. It's not about results with Mason right now. It's about decision-making. He's just not making very good decisions on the floor right now. If he starts making good decisions, we'll start to see better results (i.e., fewer fouls, more minutes, and hopefully more great plays).

Mason just hasn't seemed to figure out what he needs to do to stay on the floor. Hopefully that will come. But taking a 3 with a lot of time on the shot clock is not a good decision right now.

Agreed. And I think we did see good decision making from Andre. Yeah he missed five shots, but they were five good shots. Hopefully that speaks well to him getting minutes.

CDu
02-22-2010, 10:11 AM
Agreed. And I think we did see good decision making from Andre. Yeah he missed five shots, but they were five good shots. Hopefully that speaks well to him getting minutes.

Yeah, I don't think Dawkins forced his shots. They didn't end up looking very good, but they were in the flow of the offense.

I think that ultimately Dawkins will have a ceiling on his minutes as long as the big three are healthy and free of foul trouble. But I do hope that this leads to seeing more consistent, quality minutes when Dawkins is on the floor.

slower
02-22-2010, 10:13 AM
Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

you're just not gonna let go of this bone, are you?

DukeUsul
02-22-2010, 10:16 AM
Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

Make sure you take your Hokie-colored glasses off. You KNOW if Singler gave a forearm to the face of Delaney with no flagrant call, Hokie-Nation would be through the roof with indignation.

That being said, I have no issues with what people are calling rough or thuggish play in this game. Both teams were physical. Both teams fouled a lot. It's what it is. There wasn't anything dirty in any of the other action on the floor. But I'd like to hear an explanation why pushing someone in the face at a dead ball is equivalent to "jawing" - because the fouls called were the same.

dukemath
02-22-2010, 10:28 AM
This morning ESPN showed highlights from the game and posted VA Tech's tournament resume. They listed UNC as VA Tech's sole bad loss. What a great year it must be when losses to UNC are listed as bad losses. The commentators on Fox Sports said that VA Tech had no bad losses, but I think ESPN got it right.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

It is not so much what Hudson did, but when he did it. It took place when all three officials were occupied with another play. Were it not for replay the officials would never have seen it. Cowardly.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-22-2010, 10:37 AM
I don't recall the last time I heard Coach K complain about the refs at halftime or during a postgame interview. I also don't recall the last time I saw a Duke player take a swipe at an opposing player's face and then see Coach K act like his guy did nothing wrong... You can work the refs all you want *during* the game, but whining to the media is in poor form.

I agree. Greenberg is well within his rights to work the refs. To work the media is something else, although in his defense he did it in the middle of the game and not at the end. To work the media after a loss is downright wrong, but maybe in the middle of the games he can't control his emotions and he was working on the "nobody respects us" angle for his team.

Personally, I think that's a dumb angle. Who cares if anyone respects you? Win the damn game or don't, but it's a well-known and effective motivational tool, and I'm not sure we can fault Greenberg too much for using it. It's tough to win in Cameron, and if your entire season hinges on it, it's going to be an emotional game for any coach. When you're the little guy sometimes you can't afford the luxury of playing as pretty... but you don't have to play dirty.

Greenberg does tolerate too much thuggery from certain players, but I have to say it's usually one or two defined players as opposed to entire team strategy as Miami, Georgia Tech, Boston College and Clemson have sometimes utilized. For instance, I can't recall Delaney doing anything suspect the entire game and he's clearly their best player.

Hudson, of course, got away with murder.

Steve68
02-22-2010, 10:41 AM
Exactly. It's not about results with Mason right now. It's about decision-making. He's just not making very good decisions on the floor right now. If he starts making good decisions, we'll start to see better results (i.e., fewer fouls, more minutes, and hopefully more great plays).

Mason just hasn't seemed to figure out what he needs to do to stay on the floor. Hopefully that will come. But taking a 3 with a lot of time on the shot clock is not a good decision right now.

Mason certainly has two great examples to learn from: Lance and Z. In their four years at Duke, they have both learned how to maximize their individual strengths and become extremely valuable contributors to the team. Even those of us with the bluest of glasses didn't predict this kind of performance from the two of them at the beginning of the season. Z has become what we had hoped Mason would be by this time of the season. We should be delighted that someone has done what we all said we needed to happen for a successful season. We have a defensive stopper in Lance and a rebounding machine in Z inside now. Mason (and Miles too) should be able to learn from the examples they have every day in practice. No one is asking either one of them to be main man on this team - just a consistent contributor. They certainly have the ability to do that.

FerryFor50
02-22-2010, 10:43 AM
I agree. Greenberg is well within his rights to work the refs. To work the media is something else, although in his defense he did it in the middle of the game and not at the end. To work the media after a loss is downright wrong, but maybe in the middle of the games he can't control his emotions and he was working on the "nobody respects us" angle for his team.

Personally, I think that's a dumb angle. Who cares if anyone respects you? Win the damn game or don't, but it's a well-known and effective motivational tool, and I'm not sure we can fault Greenberg too much for using it. It's tough to win in Cameron, and if your entire season hinges on it, it's going to be an emotional game for any coach. When you're the little guy sometimes you can't afford the luxury of playing as pretty... but you don't have to play dirty.

Greenberg does tolerate too much thuggery from certain players, but I have to say it's usually one or two defined players as opposed to entire team strategy as Miami, Georgia Tech, Boston College and Clemson have sometimes utilized. For instance, I can't recall Delaney doing anything suspect the entire game and he's clearly their best player.

Hudson, of course, got away with murder.

I think part of that whole "chip on the shoulder" mentality just breeds the behavior you see from the Hokies. "Oh, no one respects us and we're getting hosed because we're at Cameron... let's start physically beating on them!"

HateCarolina
02-22-2010, 10:45 AM
Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

To all my fellow Duke fans...please ignore this guy. Having grown up in Richmond, VA I can tell you without a doubt that most Hokie fans have a chip on their shoulder that can never be knocked off. I think it comes from knowing that their school is just not as good as another university across the mountains in Charlottesville.

He obviously does not recall that Hudson was the one who initiated the "jawing" with Nolan during the scrum on the floor. He had to choose to walk over and get in Nolan's face when Nolan was looking down at the scrum. Then the swipe (not a punch) was just a topper...

I quote the Hokie fan's comment that he hasn't seen Hudson involved in anything like this before, so maybe it was his initiation into the "thug" life that seems to permeate within the VT ranks. No one else has pointed out that Delaney was standing right there and had the opportunity to calm Hudson down, but instead just sat there.

One closing comment...I think its great that we have an opposing team's fans on here since it allows us to direct all of our negative energy against them instead of against each other!!!

Nice win last night and Go Blue Devils!!!

CDu
02-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Mason certainly has two great examples to learn from: Lance and Z. In their four years at Duke, they have both learned how to maximize their individual strengths and become extremely valuable contributors to the team. Even those of us with the bluest of glasses didn't predict this kind of performance from the two of them at the beginning of the season. Z has become what we had hoped Mason would be by this time of the season. We should be delighted that someone has done what we all said we needed to happen for a successful season. We have a defensive stopper in Lance and a rebounding machine in Z inside now. Mason (and Miles too) should be able to learn from the examples they have every day in practice. No one is asking either one of them to be main man on this team - just a consistent contributor. They certainly have the ability to do that.

I agree, with a caveat. First let me say that I absolutely love where Zoubek is right now. But I wouldn't say that he's become what we hoped Mason would be. I think he's become incredibly productive, but in a very different way than I think people are/were hoping for with Mason. I don't think people expected Mason to be the type of monster on the boards that Zoubek has become. But I also think people expected/hoped Mason would be more of a versatile, impact scorer than Zoubek has become.

I do agree that the Plumlees could learn from Thomas and Zoubek. They clearly have a higher ceiling due to their combination of size and athleticism. But it's a matter of figuring out the game and their strengths within the game. They've got a ways to go in those areas.

DukeAppWV
02-22-2010, 10:46 AM
I agree. Greenberg is well within his rights to work the refs. To work the media is something else, although in his defense he did it in the middle of the game and not at the end. To work the media after a loss is downright wrong, but maybe in the middle of the games he can't control his emotions and he was working on the "nobody respects us" angle for his team.

Personally, I think that's a dumb angle. Who cares if anyone respects you? Win the damn game or don't, but it's a well-known and effective motivational tool, and I'm not sure we can fault Greenberg too much for using it. It's tough to win in Cameron, and if your entire season hinges on it, it's going to be an emotional game for any coach. When you're the little guy sometimes you can't afford the luxury of playing as pretty... but you don't have to play dirty.

Greenberg does tolerate too much thuggery from certain players, but I have to say it's usually one or two defined players as opposed to entire team strategy as Miami, Georgia Tech, Boston College and Clemson have sometimes utilized. For instance, I can't recall Delaney doing anything suspect the entire game and he's clearly their best player.

Hudson, of course, got away with murder.

Let me just say my info comes from an impeccable source - this person has told me on several occasions that when he was recruiting current VT players while they were in high school that they were good kids - BUT Greenberg has turned them into punks ----

roywhite
02-22-2010, 10:48 AM
Always interesting to read Lenox Rawlings' take on a game.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/feb/22/ugly-no-moral-win-for-rugged-hokies/sports-columnists/


Coach Seth Greenberg and Virginia Tech's junkyard dogs rolled into campus on a big maroon bus last night, hauling their first-place hopes in the luggage compartment.

A few hours, 40 fouls and 83 missed shots later, certain witnesses concluded that ACC basketball has gone to the dogs -- or at least the ACC season has gone on too long without starting the tournament. Duke hit 29 percent, managed only four points from everyone outside its Big Three and won 67-55.

Even on a Sunday, the self-infatuated Cameron Crazies had an urge to go out and party like it was 1949.

"We had the game at the ugly quotient," Greenberg mused, "but we just couldn't finish it."

That sentiment qualifies as a candid condensation of his seven-year Tech tenure, which thus far has produced precisely one NCAA Tournament appearance. Barring an utter collapse, the second bid will arrive three Sundays from now.

Andre Buckner Fan
02-22-2010, 10:52 AM
To all my fellow Duke fans...please ignore this guy. Having grown up in Richmond, VA I can tell you without a doubt that most Hokie fans have a chip on their shoulder that can never be knocked off. I think it comes from knowing that their school is just not as good as another university across the mountains in Charlottesville.


Low blow. If we Duke fans want to be taken seriously when ACC teams/fans really do cross the line against Duke (and they do frequently), then we can't take cheap shots at opposing fans who are behaving perfectly politely.

Tech fans love Tech with a passion. Duke fans love Duke with a passion.

I blame the refs in that game because they let several small things go, which got all the players angry and the players started to take care of things themselves. It is the refs' job to quell this crap before it gets started and they did a horrible job of it.

My guess is they were under-calling to prevent being accused of a Duke bias, but the actual result was chippy play and a very near flagrant foul.

CDu
02-22-2010, 10:53 AM
Always interesting to read Lenox Rawlings' take on a game.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/feb/22/ugly-no-moral-win-for-rugged-hokies/sports-columnists/

"We had the game at the ugly quotient," Greenberg mused, "but we just couldn't finish it."

That quote basically sums up Greenberg's overall strategy. He's rarely had the talent to compete with the best in the ACC, so he teaches his teams to play uber-intense, physical basketball. The upside is that it gives them a chance to win. The downside is that it makes for an ugly game of basketball and it can result in a lot of high-intensity, emotional situations.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 11:13 AM
I blame the refs in that game because they let several small things go, which got all the players angry and the players started to take care of things themselves. It is the refs' job to quell this crap before it gets started and they did a horrible job of it.

Just like in "real life" in basketball people are responsible for their own actions. It is not the ref's fault that Hudson took a swing at an opposing player.

sdotbarbee
02-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Low blow. If we Duke fans want to be taken seriously when ACC teams/fans really do cross the line against Duke (and they do frequently), then we can't take cheap shots at opposing fans who are behaving perfectly politely.

Tech fans love Tech with a passion. Duke fans love Duke with a passion.

I blame the refs in that game because they let several small things go, which got all the players angry and the players started to take care of things themselves. It is the refs' job to quell this crap before it gets started and they did a horrible job of it.

My guess is they were under-calling to prevent being accused of a Duke bias, but the actual result was chippy play and a very near flagrant foul.

I agree with you completely. Hudson should have been given a technical when he called Smith a little *** on the free throw line. I don't like when refs call it too close but that is ridiculous. I am assuming that's when it got heated between Hudson and Smith and then when the scrum happened at the other end Hudson went straight for Smith. I was glad Smith stood up to him and I do agree Smith deserved a T but IMO I think Hudson deserved 2. If not the one when he called Nolan a b!tch on the FT line he deserved 1 for jawing with Smith and 1 for hitting him in the face with an open hand. How do the refs look at it on the monitors and not do anything about the hit to the face? Bush league from the thugs at VT and shame on the refs for not having the b@lls to throw a player out of the game.

sdotbarbee
02-22-2010, 11:21 AM
Just like in "real life" in basketball people are responsible for their own actions. It is not the ref's fault that Hudson took a swing at an opposing player.


Yeah but it is the refs fault for not taking control of the game. Hudson should have had 3 technical fouls called on him and he had 1. Smith stands up for himself because he is called a little *** (T#1) when he is trying to shoot FT's and then Hudson walks over to him and gets in his face jawing (T#2) and then on top of that Hudson hits Smith in the face. And I have said all along I think Smith deserved a T but Hudson should have been kicked out and I don't feel the refs did their job.

crdaul
02-22-2010, 11:23 AM
"Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it.

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.) "

He also probably doesn't usually call opposing players "little ***" when they're shooting free throws...but he did last night. Some class! I think Nolan showed remarkable restraint after all he had endured during the game....

GO DUKE

UrinalCake
02-22-2010, 11:35 AM
I lost all respect for Greenberg when he mocked Paulus for being "teabagged" in a post-game press conference. It's one thing for fans to use that kind of language. I can even see cases where players might say that sort of thing. But then the head coach of your program says that in a press conference, how do you expect anyone else to show any kind of class?

Andre Buckner Fan
02-22-2010, 11:39 AM
He also probably doesn't usually call opposing players "little I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this." when they're shooting free throws...but he did last night. Some class! I think Nolan showed remarkable restraint after all he had endured during the game...

I'm actually really proud of Smith. He jawed a bit but he needed to learn that he can compete with any one, and it looks like he's finally learned that he doesn't have to back down to any thug. I'll take a foul for jawing if Smith shows that he can stand his ground and then answer an insult by upping his game with a knife dagger three.

Actually all Hudson really did was kill his team's chances. They had an outside chance to win the game at that point, but he killed his team's mojo and he fired up Duke with a passion (see Nolan's dagger three). The rest of VT's team played guilty and flat for the last two minutes. They knew that Hudson had started it and gotten away with it, and that always kills a team's spirit.

whereinthehellami
02-22-2010, 11:42 AM
We seem better prepared this year for the physical type games we often see in the NCAA tournament.

I agree with this. Duke seems to enjoy the contact more than in past seasons, something Zoubek admitted in the post game interview.


To all my fellow Duke fans...please ignore this guy. Having grown up in Richmond, VA I can tell you without a doubt that most Hokie fans have a chip on their shoulder that can never be knocked off. I think it comes from knowing that their school is just not as good as another university across the mountains in Charlottesville.

He obviously does not recall that Hudson was the one who initiated the "jawing" with Nolan during the scrum on the floor. He had to choose to walk over and get in Nolan's face when Nolan was looking down at the scrum. Then the swipe (not a punch) was just a topper...

I quote the Hokie fan's comment that he hasn't seen Hudson involved in anything like this before, so maybe it was his initiation into the "thug" life that seems to permeate within the VT ranks. No one else has pointed out that Delaney was standing right there and had the opportunity to calm Hudson down, but instead just sat there.

One closing comment...I think its great that we have an opposing team's fans on here since it allows us to direct all of our negative energy against them instead of against each other!!!

Nice win last night and Go Blue Devils!!!

Okay.

slower
02-22-2010, 11:51 AM
They knew that Hudson had started it and gotten away with it, and that always kills a team's spirit.

I've never seen that effect. If anything, it would embolden a team to do it even more.

Osiagledknarf
02-22-2010, 12:02 PM
Listen, I'm the biggest LT hater of anyone (I've gotten at least 4 infractions for destructively negative comments on LT). But are you really complaining about this?

Duke's biggest problem this year and last was that we had the big 3 (Last year, G-Scheyer-Singler, this year Nolan-Scheyer-Singler) and nothing else. Going into the Maryland game, we had bigs who could absorb fouls and would have flashes of strong play....but that's it.

Now, we've had 3 STRONG games from Z. If this continues, it's not just the big 3. It's the Big FOUR. That's a huge improvement. Whoever's our 2nd big man on the floor is just less of a worry.

No this won't cut it in the tourney. Even if the big 3 are on, we will still need a big man who can contribute down low in the post and be able to contribute offensively.

3 big guys going 0-1 with 2 rebounds and 10 fouls combined is something to be worry about. We need another option down to go to if one of the big 3 is struggling, we will need better then that to go anywhere in the tourney.

Bomar
02-22-2010, 12:04 PM
I lost all respect for Greenberg when he mocked Paulus for being "teabagged" in a post-game press conference. It's one thing for fans to use that kind of language. I can even see cases where players might say that sort of thing. But then the head coach of your program says that in a press conference, how do you expect anyone else to show any kind of class?

What is their obsession with freakin' Paulus? Red Herring?

ReformedAggie
02-22-2010, 12:51 PM
I don't see how it is helpful to bash Lance who is working hard with a bone bruise, nor the Plumlee's who are learning. That's just not helpful.

DukeAppWV
02-22-2010, 12:54 PM
I don't see how it is helpful to bash Lance who is working hard with a bone bruise, nor the Plumlee's who are learning. That's just not helpful.

I agree - however Lance has to begin making those 1-footers ----

alteran
02-22-2010, 01:27 PM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

Oh, Smith was jawing. Makes the slap in the face all class, then.

oldnavy
02-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Oh, Smith was jawing. Makes the slap in the face all class, then.

Can you imagine Roy's reaction to a player calling Deon a little **** at the foul line and then swiping one of his players across the face in "his" house?

Roy would have had Hudson escorted out by security!!

tele
02-22-2010, 01:44 PM
That was a gritty, well deserved win by the Blue Devils! A great effort all around. VAtech admits to playing an ugly physical style of basketball, and going by what their coach says and the actions of their players no tactics are too low for them, even deliberately trying to provoke someone by namecalling or slapping them in the face. You'd think they'd know better.

Duke would benefit from more balanced scoring. Get 4 players in double figures and then the offense will really hum, 5 players scoring in double figures and this team could be great! They are very good anyway, just having 3 great scorers is one or two more than most teams have. And when a 4'th player scores in double figures, it doesn't just add their points, it makes it much harder for opponents to defend the 3 s'ses (3?). Can't double or triple team Singler when he drives to the basket, for instance.

A first place team that can still get better at this point of the season? That is a good place to be.

HateCarolina
02-22-2010, 02:18 PM
Low blow. If we Duke fans want to be taken seriously when ACC teams/fans really do cross the line against Duke (and they do frequently), then we can't take cheap shots at opposing fans who are behaving perfectly politely.

Low blow? I am simply pointing out that Hokie Engineer is making excuses for the thuggish play of Hudson...and this may extend from the "chip" that VT fans carry around on their shoulders...please understand that my despise for UVA is right up there with Carolina (try growing up as a Duke fan in Richmond, VA) so I am in no way trying to promote them.

DukeMom
02-22-2010, 02:22 PM
I think we've got our swagger back. Between Kyle's tongue wagging and mimicking the swirls around the rim of that three that somehow went in and Nolan not backing down from Hudson when he was up in his face, our guys seem to really enjoy playing the game these days. Its really fun to watch.

We've got a mountain masquerading as a man in Zoubek, and some great depth down low to go long with the 2nd highest scoring trio in the country.

We are 23-4, in the Top 10 in both polls, in the Top 3 in all computer rankings, in position for a #1 or #2 seed in the tourney, and sitting pretty atop the ACC. We beat carolina in the Nose Dome, and are poised to sweep them on Senior Night in OUR HOUSE!

I don't know about you all, but I'm enjoying this ride. The wheels aren't falling off either. I mentioned 2 of our big 3 above who seem to have a new fire lit under them and yet they play way too many minutes. We rely too heavily on perimeter shooting, yet we just beat the #5 defensive team in the country with only 3 guards scoring mainly from the outside. We can't shoot well, but we're one of the best offensive rebounding teams out there and we're the 10th highest scoring team in the country. For all the things we do wrong, we do something right to counteract it on most nights. Who would've thought a team with no point guard, only 3 guards on the roster, had just lost its two most athletic slashers, and with a bunch of role players down low could be performing at this level?

I think we've got a lot of games left to play this season, but I'm enjoying each one more than the last. I hope you can too.
Thank you and amen.

HokieEngineer
02-22-2010, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=Andre Buckner Fan;368106]Low blow. If we Duke fans want to be taken seriously when ACC teams/fans really do cross the line against Duke (and they do frequently), then we can't take cheap shots at opposing fans who are behaving perfectly politely. QUOTE]

Low blow? I am simply pointing out that Hokie Engineer is making excuses for the thuggish play of Hudson...and this may extend from the "chip" that VT fans carry around on their shoulders...please understand that my despise for UVA is right up there with Carolina (try growing up as a Duke fan in Richmond, VA) so I am in no way trying to promote them.

I said that he shouldn't have behaved the way that he did. I also said that there must have been something else going on (Smith's jawing?) because Hudson has never done anything remotely like that before.

What I saw was that Hudson went to block Smith out on Smith's successful free throw with 2:29 left. It wasn't an aggressive block out. However, something obviously happened there that was partially blocked on on the TV broadcast. Given the fact that (1) Hudson has no history of excitable behavior, and (2) the fact that he didn't aggressively block out on the first free throw, I think that Smith said something then. (You'll notice that Zoubek steps in at that point.) Hudson's block out on the next free throw was much different.

I'd like to know what happened at the free throw line. I think Smith said something, but that's Hokie speculation on my part.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-22-2010, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE=HateCarolina;368231]

I said that he shouldn't have behaved the way that he did. I also said that there must have been something else going on (Smith's jawing?) because Hudson has never done anything remotely like that before.

What I saw was that Hudson went to block Smith out on Smith's successful free throw with 2:29 left. It wasn't an aggressive block out. However, something obviously happened there that was partially blocked on on the TV broadcast. Given the fact that (1) Hudson has no history of excitable behavior, and (2) the fact that he didn't aggressively block out on the first free throw, I think that Smith said something then. (You'll notice that Zoubek steps in at that point.) Hudson's block out on the next free throw was much different.

I'd like to know what happened at the free throw line. I think Smith said something, but that's Hokie speculation on my part.


The problem with your theory is that Smith also has never shown a history of jawing or doing anything close to dirty. Playing Duke brings out the emotions in players, especially at Cameron so you can't say that its out of the question that Hudson was just being an a**

HokieEngineer
02-22-2010, 02:47 PM
[QUOTE=HokieEngineer;368241]


The problem with your theory is that Smith also has never shown a history of jawing or doing anything close to dirty. Playing Duke brings out the emotions in players, especially at Cameron so you can't say that its out of the question that Hudson was just being an a**

Something happens really abruptly there. If it was going to be a "spontaneous Cameron combustion" I would have expected to see it on the block out for the first free throw.

In the end, only Smith and Hudson know what happened. I doubt that either will say anything about it.

Dukeface88
02-22-2010, 02:49 PM
I used to like Seth Greenberg. Then he added those cheeky comments at halftime about how he expected his players getting 2 fouls each during warmups. Then his whiny body language about every single foul suggested that he thought he was getting a raw deal. And then he whined even more about the double-foul when it was clear that his player kinda threw a punch when he should have been happy he didn't get ejected.

Now if you want to complain about calls and ride the refs, do it. See K, GW etc. etc. Nobody likes a whiner.

I also remember him a couple of years ago complaining about his players getting poked in the eye at CIS when inbounding on the sidelines. I'm pretty sure it was him. Waah waah waah.

This is Cameron homie. Where your boys should learn to become men. Deal with it.

It wasn't just at halftime. He also went on a rant about the Crazies (called us buffoons, said our parents "must be real proud" of us) and apparently told his players to lean back when inbounding (trying to get someone to touch them so they could be thrown out). The first is fine. Any time a coach calls out the Crazies it mean's we're doing a good job IMO, and it gives us "bulletin board material". There were more than a few signs refrencing the comments (a friend of mine had one of the photos of Allen flipping off the MD fans taped to a poster saying "this is a buffoon"; pretty sure it couldn't shown on TV). The second is just petty.

watzone
02-22-2010, 03:06 PM
Brian Zoubek liking his role and wanting the limelight to continue. You have to love it for this guy who is humble and hard working - http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/02/its-the-big-three-and-brian-zoubek/

Kedsy
02-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Brian Zoubek liking his role and wanting the limelight to continue. You have to love it for this guy who is humble and hard working - http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/02/its-the-big-three-and-brian-zoubek/

Nice article, Mark.

buddy
02-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Brian Zoubek liking his role and wanting the limelight to continue. You have to love it for this guy who is humble and hard working - http://bluedevilnation.net/2010/02/its-the-big-three-and-brian-zoubek/

Brian has had many setbacks throughout his Duke career. It is really good to see him finding his role and excelling therein. He does seem to understand his role. He has stopped trying to be a 7'1" guy, and started being Brian Zoubek, concentrating on what he can do, and not trying to do what he can't. His continued progression is essential to the long term success of this team. I remember watching his frustration at Countdown to Craziness, and watching Laettner pull him aside after the scrimmage and demonstrate how to play the position. Brian has been a joy to watch in the these recent games. May he continue his recent success.

BD80
02-22-2010, 04:59 PM
I just love this picture:

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics31/800/JW/JWFNNVQJYQBFRFE.20100222041037.JPG

I can't decide if it looks more like a little kid jumping on his dad or an ent being attacked by an orc...:D

I remember thinking when this happened: "Does Z even know Nolan is on his back?"


I noticed both Plumlees returning to defense on the jog and not getting back in time, whereas Lance was returning at the sprint to get back to his man. This is not the first time I noticed the Plumlees not making a strong effort transitioning to defense.

They more often fail to hustle than hustle. This is one area where it is fair to lump the brothers together. I wanted to see them play more and Z less at the beginning of the season because of "upside," but I soured on their attitude early on. Until they hustle and actually try to stop their stupid mistakes, I'm good with them sitting.

sdotbarbee
02-22-2010, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=HateCarolina;368231]

I said that he shouldn't have behaved the way that he did. I also said that there must have been something else going on (Smith's jawing?) because Hudson has never done anything remotely like that before.

What I saw was that Hudson went to block Smith out on Smith's successful free throw with 2:29 left. It wasn't an aggressive block out. However, something obviously happened there that was partially blocked on on the TV broadcast. Given the fact that (1) Hudson has no history of excitable behavior, and (2) the fact that he didn't aggressively block out on the first free throw, I think that Smith said something then. (You'll notice that Zoubek steps in at that point.) Hudson's block out on the next free throw was much different.

I'd like to know what happened at the free throw line. I think Smith said something, but that's Hokie speculation on my part.

Yeah what happened was Hudson called Smith a little b**ch after the first free throw and then that halted play for a bit with Z stepping in. After that the scrum happened on the other end and Hudson walked over and he and Smith got face to face and then the thug in Hudson came out and he hit Nolan in the face. The thug should have been thrown out but the 3 Nolan hit after that was sweet! I actually jumped up and started fist pumping like I was from Jersey Shore.

billy
02-22-2010, 06:34 PM
What were the Crazies up to? Anything different to respond to some of Greenberg's pregame comments?

Its just too bad that the TV coverage doesn't show some of the fun stuff.

At the game, I couldn't hear anything about the pregame comments chanted by the crazies, doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. I did see a whiteboard referencing the comments with $60,000 written on it in the grad student section.

On a slightly different note, the hokie fans were loud (in the corner of the student section across from the bench) during most Duke free throw attempts and at other lulls in the game when it was quiet. They consistently yelled "Lets Go hokies". The response was the "Ohhhhhhhhhhh" chant from the crazies. Could be easily changed to "Lets Go Duke" by just a few of our fans in the future....or by making some "white noise" (clapping?) during free throws:


I seem to recall JJ wanted us to make some noise during free throws...

-jk

Lastly, what happened to the Boink-Boink-Pass cheer?

Devilsfan
02-22-2010, 06:34 PM
Hudson's not a thug. He's a punk. I am so pround of Nolan for not backing down and even more proud of Z for backing his teammate. Z continues to amaze me. He has come farther than I thought was humanly possible.

Jessica5
02-22-2010, 06:41 PM
Always interesting to read Lenox Rawlings' take on a game.

Lenox Rawlings (with his baby blue button down shirts) is allergic to scooting in a the press table. MUCH bigger dudes take up MUCH less space.

sdotbarbee
02-22-2010, 07:23 PM
]Hudson's not a thug. He's a punk.[/B] I am so pround of Nolan for not backing down and even more proud of Z for backing his teammate. Z continues to amaze me. He has come farther than I thought was humanly possible.

What's the difference? Punk=a young ruffian; hoodlum.
Thug=A cutthroat or ruffian; a hoodlum.

Pretty much the same in my book but whatever word you like to use better I guess.:D

devilsadvocate85
02-22-2010, 07:54 PM
Hudson should not have acted like he did, but then Smith should not have been jawing the way he was.

Maybe you should watch the game replay and take note of the forearm that Hudson threw into Andre Dawkins on the way to a timeout huddle in the second half. And the look he gave to the official watching the situation as if complaining that Dawkins had done something to Hudson.

Cheap shots and borderline dirty play have followed VT since joining the ACC. Playing hard and physical is an entirely different thing.

devilsadvocate85
02-22-2010, 07:58 PM
Hudson normally doesn't jaw either, so Smith probably goaded him into it. :)

(As a Hokies fan, I haven't seen Hudson involved in anything like that previously. In most games, I wish that he would be more aggressive.)

Once again....watch the replay. Hudson started all of it by yapping at Smith after Nolan missed a free throw. Watch the tape.

House G
02-22-2010, 08:30 PM
Maybe you should watch the game replay and take note of the forearm that Hudson threw into Andre Dawkins on the way to a timeout huddle in the second half. And the look he gave to the official watching the situation as if complaining that Dawkins had done something to Hudson.

Cheap shots and borderline dirty play have followed VT since joining the ACC. Playing hard and physical is an entirely different thing.
Someone will have to help me but I am pretty sure one of VT's defensive players almost decapitated Thad Lewis in Blacksburg a couple of years ago well after the play was over. Is this characteristic of Beamer Ball or an isolated incident?

6th Man
02-22-2010, 08:41 PM
Someone will have to help me but I am pretty sure one of VT's defensive players almost decapitated Thad Lewis in Blacksburg a couple of years ago well after the play was over. Is this characteristic of Beamer Ball or an isolated incident?

I know we are starting to get off subject a little, but I remember this game. It was obvious to me that Tech's game plan was to rough up Lewis. Prior to the hit that left Thad with a concussion, there were at least 2 or 3 roughing the passer calls. On this particular play, Thad threw the ball and several seconds later got drilled. Knocked Thad out with a concussion. I understand you can't always pull up, but this guy had seconds to spare and drilled him in the chin. Thad was all Duke had that season and it was clear that the gameplan was to rough him up. Never seen so many late hits in a college game sense. I have no respect for Virginia Tech football.

As for last night, I had a rare opportunity to attend the game at Cameron. I personally felt last night was some of the worst officiating I have seen in sometime. And sometimes the calls went in our favor. Just poor all the way around.

gofurman
02-22-2010, 10:30 PM
not going to read everything but wanted to state-

good win. 1st in conference

way to go z

singler looking tough

the one concern, and it is a known, is the lack of ability to stop penetrating guards. This year the ACC is not full of speedy guards - ish smith is without his mate teague, no lawson... VT brings one of the better quick tandems in delaney and hudson and that was a very tough game for us. We just don't have someone to stop a Villanova type team

pfrduke
02-22-2010, 11:07 PM
the one concern, and it is a known, is the lack of ability to stop penetrating guards. This year the ACC is not full of speedy guards - ish smith is without his mate teague, no lawson... VT brings one of the better quick tandems in delaney and hudson and that was a very tough game for us. We just don't have someone to stop a Villanova type team


TOT-FG 3-PT REBOUNDS
## Player Name FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OF DE TOT PF TP A TO BLK S MIN

05 Dorenzo Hudson...... g 3-12 0-4 6-6 2 3 5 3 12 0 1 0 0 39
23 Malcolm Delaney..... g 5-19 2-9 7-8 1 1 2 3 19 3 4 0 3 37

Hudson and Delaney had an extremely difficult time against our defense: 8 of 31 from the field, including 2-13 from 3, and only 3 assists against 5 turnovers. I'd say we contained them just fine.

gep
02-22-2010, 11:31 PM
I remember thinking when this happened: "Does Z even know Nolan is on his back?"



... I am so pround of Nolan for not backing down and even more proud of Z for backing his teammate. Z continues to amaze me. He has come farther than I thought was humanly possible.

The picture of Nolan on Brian's back... I remember seeing the joy on the faces of Nolan and Brian from the front during the game... then see Kyle's smile in the picture. Brian may not only have worked himself into a valuable player, but maybe the inspiration/inspirational player for this team from here on out... injured for most of 3 years, coming off the bench in his 4th year but playing well... then his explosion. GO ZZZZ... GO DUKE

UrinalCake
02-22-2010, 11:51 PM
Someone will have to help me but I am pretty sure one of VT's defensive players almost decapitated Thad Lewis in Blacksburg a couple of years ago well after the play was over. Is this characteristic of Beamer Ball or an isolated incident?

Pretty much the story at VT:

- Deron Williams stomping on Lee Melchioni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrgNEZ8VR8

- Another incident a couple years ago involving a TE on their football team who was also on the b-ball team

- On the football side of things they always take cheap shots like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVisMXXrgBw

- And of course they are the proud alumnus of the Vick brothers (for all of Michael's troubles, younger brother Marcus had his share of run-ins with the law and was ultimately kicked off the team).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfMcqB9jwS0&feature=related.

A high school buddy of mine went to VT and described an incident where some football players beat up some members of the cross country team. In sunday's game, an incident that we haven't really mentioned happened earlier in the game when a VT player (pretty sure it was hudson) started shoving his way into the Duke huddle. I was at the game and wasn't sure if it could be seen on TV. The VT players seem to be pretty good at knowing when the refs aren't looking and when the cameras aren't on them, doing things right after timeouts are called and such. My guess is that their hope is to get their opponents called for technical fouls for retaliating (since the ref usually misses the initial action) or at the very least get a double technical involving a better player from the other team (like Nolan Smith)

Dukeface88
02-23-2010, 12:19 AM
At the game, I couldn't hear anything about the pregame comments chanted by the crazies, doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. I did see a whiteboard referencing the comments with $60,000 written on it in the grad student section.


It may depend on where you were sitting. I was near the front on the grad section side, and I saw at least two signs about it down there. I mentioned one above; the other was "the guy with the cane and the little skull on top" with a sign saying "My parents are proud of me". I don't think we did any chants though.


On a slightly different note, the hokie fans were loud (in the corner of the student section across from the bench) during most Duke free throw attempts and at other lulls in the game when it was quiet. They consistently yelled "Lets Go hokies". The response was the "Ohhhhhhhhhhh" chant from the crazies. Could be easily changed to "Lets Go Duke" by just a few of our fans in the future....or by making some "white noise" (clapping?) during free throws:


Yeah, I'm not sure what to do about opposing fans during free throws. Could anyone connected to the program (there are managers/parents that read these boards right?) get either a coach or a player to clarify this in a presser/interview?



Lastly, what happened to the Boink-Boink-Pass cheer?

We did it once. To be honest, I don't care for it much. It just doesn't seem to work well (although the possesion we used it for this game ended in a missed shot). Nothing to base that on, just a feeling.

In other news, I thought the "Come to Duke" for Marshall was pretty weak. On a good note, I didn't hear the "you suck" during intros this game. Could have just been where I was in the stands though.

Kedsy
02-23-2010, 12:20 AM
the one concern, and it is a known, is the lack of ability to stop penetrating guards.

This is a myth, and one that is perpetuated by the media as well as fans. This year Duke has not had a problem with penetrating guards. They have had a problem with spread offenses. This season Duke has easily handled teams with quick and/or penetrating guards that do not use a spread offense (e.g., Wake Forest, UConn, Maryland, Gonzaga (sort of), even VPI (which wasn't so easy but VaTech's guards were more or less shut down)). And the teams that have made Duke look bad this year (Wisconsin, State, G-town) have had decently quick guards but not the quickest we've seen -- but they did employ a 4-out, 1-in offense.

Morris614
02-23-2010, 12:20 AM
Pretty much the story at VT:

- Deron Williams stomping on Lee Melchioni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrgNEZ8VR8

- Another incident a couple years ago involving a TE on their football team who was also on the b-ball team

- On the football side of things they always take cheap shots like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVisMXXrgBw

- And of course they are the proud alumnus of the Vick brothers (for all of Michael's troubles, younger brother Marcus had his share of run-ins with the law and was ultimately kicked off the team).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfMcqB9jwS0&feature=related.

A high school buddy of mine went to VT and described an incident where some football players beat up some members of the cross country team. In sunday's game, an incident that we haven't really mentioned happened earlier in the game when a VT player (pretty sure it was hudson) started shoving his way into the Duke huddle. I was at the game and wasn't sure if it could be seen on TV. The VT players seem to be pretty good at knowing when the refs aren't looking and when the cameras aren't on them, doing things right after timeouts are called and such. My guess is that their hope is to get their opponents called for technical fouls for retaliating (since the ref usually misses the initial action) or at the very least get a double technical involving a better player from the other team (like Nolan Smith)

You mean Deron Washington, right?

gofurman
02-23-2010, 09:32 AM
This is a myth, and one that is perpetuated by the media as well as fans. This year Duke has not had a problem with penetrating guards. They have had a problem with spread offenses. This season Duke has easily handled teams with quick and/or penetrating guards that do not use a spread offense (e.g., Wake Forest, UConn, Maryland, Gonzaga (sort of), even VPI (which wasn't so easy but VaTech's guards were more or less shut down)). And the teams that have made Duke look bad this year (Wisconsin, State, G-town) have had decently quick guards but not the quickest we've seen -- but they did employ a 4-out, 1-in offense.

ok - yo have a point. A difference I failed to see. Why can't we stop the spread? Is it the mild overplay of passing lanes? (we aren't as tenacious on that this year)

91_92_01_10_15
02-23-2010, 11:11 AM
I know we are starting to get off subject a little, but I remember this game. It was obvious to me that Tech's game plan was to rough up Lewis. Prior to the hit that left Thad with a concussion, there were at least 2 or 3 roughing the passer calls. On this particular play, Thad threw the ball and several seconds later got drilled. Knocked Thad out with a concussion. I understand you can't always pull up, but this guy had seconds to spare and drilled him in the chin. Thad was all Duke had that season and it was clear that the gameplan was to rough him up. Never seen so many late hits in a college game sense. I have no respect for Virginia Tech football.


I remember it, too. The third roughing the passer penalty in the first quarter was the one that gave Thad the concussion.

We really classed up the conference with our expansion, huh?

Also, I haven't heard anything mentioned about the jawing from the VT players towards the fans on the way out after the game the other night. They stopped and were talking to someone behind the Duke bench in what appeared to be a heated exchange. Can anyone offer any insight?

Kedsy
02-23-2010, 01:56 PM
ok - yo have a point. A difference I failed to see. Why can't we stop the spread? Is it the mild overplay of passing lanes? (we aren't as tenacious on that this year)

I think it's because the big on the perimeter draws out the help defender. The key to our defense this year is we are helping well, so if a quick perimeter guy scoots by his man there are a lot of big bodies waiting to keep him from the basket. If our second big is defending near the 3-point line, then there's only one defender in the middle, and if he leaves his own man the rotating help defender is too far away. So if the guard gets by his man he either has a layup if the big doesn't come to him, or a dish for the dunk if he does.

How to fix it is somewhat of a conundrum. We either have to keep the opposing guards from getting into the lane, which can be difficult for Jon and Kyle on a one-on-one basis; or have a man in the middle who can cheat toward the driver enough to make him pass off but not so far that he can't get back and defend his own man, but our bigs aren't quite quick enough to pull that off; or have our 2nd big stay close enough to rotate over, but that leaves his man open for a three. If the other team's 4 can hit those threes (like Wisconsin, State, Georgetown (sort of), and Villanova), we're in a bit of trouble.

gumbomoop
02-23-2010, 02:06 PM
I think it's because the big on the perimeter draws out the help defender. The key to our defense this year is we are helping well, so if a quick perimeter guy scoots by his man there are a lot of big bodies waiting to keep him from the basket. If our second big is defending near the 3-point line, then there's only one defender in the middle, and if he leaves his own man the rotating help defender is too far away. So if the guard gets by his man he either has a layup if the big doesn't come to him, or a dish for the dunk if he does.

How to fix it is somewhat of a conundrum. We either have to keep the opposing guards from getting into the lane, which can be difficult for Jon and Kyle on a one-on-one basis; or have a man in the middle who can cheat toward the driver enough to make him pass off but not so far that he can't get back and defend his own man, but our bigs aren't quite quick enough to pull that off; or have our 2nd big stay close enough to rotate over, but that leaves his man open for a three. If the other team's 4 can hit those threes (like Wisconsin, State, Georgetown (sort of), and Villanova), we're in a bit of trouble.

Good details here, and I mean it. I think I knew some of this stuff, but seeing the problem detailed is very helpful. It's definitely a possible weakness, though one misunderstood, as I think you've [maybe others] pointed out in a couple of threads, as simply a guard-penetration issue.

jv001
02-23-2010, 02:19 PM
This Duke team is best built to defend the good dribble drive teams because we have good inside defenders. Sometimes I forget that it's hard to defend one on one because palming the ball is hardly ever called anymore. So when Nolan or Jon get's beat I don't get as upset as I used to. There are not many on the ball defenders that can completely shut down a good stud guard without help defense. One thing to think about is we have not had a lights out shooting game from all 3 perimeter guys yet. I hope that comes against one of the spread teams we play in the Tournament. Then we can just out score them in a high scoring game. Go Duke!

oldnavy
02-23-2010, 02:28 PM
Good details here, and I mean it. I think I knew some of this stuff, but seeing the problem detailed is very helpful. It's definitely a possible weakness, though one misunderstood, as I think you've [maybe others] pointed out in a couple of threads, as simply a guard-penetration issue.

Another option would be to go "Orange" or play a zone. That totally negates the advantages of the spread offense, but you leave yourself open to other vulnerabilities.
K has been more inclined to use a zone this year than in the past, so one would hope that if we were getting beat by a spread offense in the tourney he would throw a couple of zone looks at the opponent to see if that disrupted their rhythm.

Genedoc
02-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Mostly I'm just glad that we scheduled a neutral court game in mid Feb, vs. a conference opponent nonetheless, and had them agree to play it in Cameron. That's a novel idea.

natedog4ever
02-23-2010, 03:55 PM
I lost all respect for Greenberg when he mocked Paulus for being "teabagged" in a post-game press conference. It's one thing for fans to use that kind of language. I can even see cases where players might say that sort of thing. But then the head coach of your program says that in a press conference, how do you expect anyone else to show any kind of class?

Lost my respect the first time he showed up in Cameron. Recall he was ejected and on the way out made a jab step at someone in the crowd. The kind of "feint" that you see guys in bars make when they aren't ready to fight, but they want to see if they can make the other guy flinch.

He tried to play it off by saying he was avoiding someone, but if you watched it again, you could see the truth.

I am so glad nothing bad happened in that scenario. When I think back to the mindset I had as an 18-year-old in Cameron, I can assure you that Seth would have been picking up his teeth if I had been standing there. Not a good result for anyone.

killerleft
02-23-2010, 04:38 PM
I personally love it when VT (or any other opponent) comes to Duke with the mindset that the refs are gonna favor us.

It's one thing for Greenburg to make sure his team brings the toughness and hustle needed to beat Duke at Cameron.

But when the coach whines at too many calls, and when the players act like every foul call against them is bogus, I believe they are just setting themselves up to fail.

What more could we ask for than whiny opponents with their focus on something other than making good plays? And how does a team make needed adjustments when the only adjustment they think they need is friendlier refs?

Ah, that self-fulfilling Cameron Mystique!

uncwdevil
02-23-2010, 05:13 PM
FYI

Greenburg is going to be on Mark Packer's show sometime between now and 7pm.

According to Packer, one of the topics that will be discussed is how the Hokies got hosed in Cameron on Sunday night.

This should be great.

whereinthehellami
02-23-2010, 05:21 PM
Seth Greenberg mentioned in his weekly radio show that Coach K told him after the game that he was impressed with what Seth has done with his team. Coach K respects tough teams. Which is exactly what VT is.

If honors were handed out today, I would give Greenberg coach of the year and Delaney player of the year. Greenberg has done an incredible job with very limited talent. Without Delaney, VT doesn't win a game. He has been playing most of the season on two bad ankles that have held him out of some games. He is tough as nails.

NashvilleDevil
02-23-2010, 05:25 PM
Is it me or is he the only coach who is still trying to trumpet the "Duke gets all the calls" meme from 5 years ago?