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DukeBlueNikeShox
02-20-2010, 05:19 PM
He's the first in ACC History to post 2,000 points, 700 assists, and 600 rebounds! That's pretty awesome.

HateCarolina
02-20-2010, 05:23 PM
Eventhough he's a cocky son of a gun that is still very impressive. Does anyone know of any other players that even got close to those stat lines? Just curious to know.

CameronBornAndBred
02-20-2010, 05:28 PM
I'll put Greivis right there with his counterpart, Redick. Fun to watch, fun to hate.

Olympic Fan
02-21-2010, 12:49 PM
Eventhough he's a cocky son of a gun that is still very impressive. Does anyone know of any other players that even got close to those stat lines? Just curious to know.

Vasquez is just the 13th player in ACC history to get to 700 assists, so there are not a lot of contenders for this particular comination of statistical achievements.

You might look at Jason Williams, who topped 2,000 points and had 644 assists in just three seasons. He also had 395 rebounds, so it's not farfetched to suggest that he could have topped 2,500 points, 900 assists and 600 rebounds if he'd have stayed four years (he didn't of course -- just trying to put Vasquez's numbers in context).

When you look at the best-rounded players in Duke history, you'll see Ferry will 2,000-plus points, 1,000-plus rebounds, but "just" 506 assists.

Grant Hill came up just short of 2,000 points (1924), and had 761 rebounds and 461 assists. Battier also came up just short of 2,000 points and while he had 887 rebounds, he only has just short of 300 assists. Dick Groat finished just short of 2,000 points and almost certainly had 600-plus assists and well over 600 rebounds (we don't have complete assist/rebound totals for his career). Heyman also barely missed 2,000 points and was well over 800 rebounds ... he was a great playmaker, but probably didn't get close to 700 assists (we don't have his assist totals).

These are just a Duke list. Hmmm, Phil Ford had more points and more assists, but he didn't get to 400 rebounds. In three years, Charlie Scott had 2,000-plus points and 649 rebounds. We only have his assist total for one year (193 -- in an era when assists were much more grudgingly handed out). I'm sure there are more.

I have to say that you can put these various stat combos together for quite a few players -- I've seen stat packages that make Ferry and Grant Hill unique. There was one last year for KC Rivers.

That's not to diminish Vasquez, who has had a great career.

Franzez
02-21-2010, 12:58 PM
Eventhough he's a cocky son of a gun that is still very impressive. Does anyone know of any other players that even got close to those stat lines? Just curious to know.
I've seen Vasquez up close and without question he is the most untalented players I've ever seen, on that same token he is one of the mentally toughest players I've ever seen and plays with a motor that never stops.

Hes just what happens when you give a hustle/energy guy the most touches on the team.

moonpie23
02-21-2010, 01:08 PM
gotta give it up for greivis......i like him....

CameronBornAndBred
02-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Vernerey needs to learn touch..she muscles up all of her shots, and they miss by a mile. Grrrrr.

Newton_14
02-21-2010, 01:22 PM
GV is a great talent who has had a great career. Love him or hate him there is no denying the guy has skills. His understanding of the game is outstanding and his court vision is way better than most players.

He put on a clinic in that last game with the holes creating shots for others while getting his own points as well. A polarizing guy for sure but the kid has serious game..

Morris614
02-21-2010, 01:22 PM
I've seen Vasquez up close and without question he is the most untalented players I've ever seen, on that same token he is one of the mentally toughest players I've ever seen and plays with a motor that never stops.

Hes just what happens when you give a hustle/energy guy the most touches on the team.

Hustle and energy only get you so far (especially if you are a guard). To call him untalented is ridiculous.

Smitty1911
02-21-2010, 01:25 PM
I've seen Vasquez up close and without question he is the most untalented players I've ever seen

Are you serious?! I can't believe you're forcing me to defend Vasquez. His game can look a little awkward, but you can't ignore his stats. There was a debate on sports radio in DC last week if he was in the top 5 all time at MD. While the general consensus was that he was just outside of that list, the fact that he was in the discussion says a lot. I am definitely not a fan of Vasquez, but I'm starting to begrudgingly respect his talent. Now I have to go take another shower. Thanks a lot!

Rudy
02-21-2010, 01:33 PM
I've seen Vasquez up close and without question he is the most untalented players I've ever seen, on that same token he is one of the mentally toughest players I've ever seen and plays with a motor that never stops.

Hes just what happens when you give a hustle/energy guy the most touches on the team.

You probably saw him in Cameron the last two years where he does't and didn't play well. He's good, if tempermental.

loran16
02-21-2010, 01:47 PM
Eh, I'll grant him the points and assists are very impressive.

But I always have to laugh at Vasquez grabbing rebounds....he gets so many because his TEAM sucks at rebounding (see their domination by Zoubek).

Scheyer would for example, get a ton more rebounds if we didn't have Singler last year, making him comparable in that department (this year we'd have to lose Singler, Zoo, and the Plumlees).

Seriously, their top rebounder right now (with 8 a game) is Frosh Jordan Williams. No one besides him has more than 5.5 per game. Last year, Vazquez led the team at 5.5 per game.

If he was on duke, his rebounds would be cut in half.

dukestheheat
02-21-2010, 02:09 PM
I think he's a really good player who seems to love this game and he truly plays it with passion. He does wear his emotions on his sleeve, and at times this just is so funny to me. I love it when he starts picking on the crowd; funny thing with GV, though, is that he BELIEVES it! It isn't just a joke to him, then.

He's got the mouth and he's also got the talent to back it up; I'm not sure if he'll be a great pro but I will miss him when he leaves. I'm glad he came back this year so I'd have the chance to watch him play again; looking forward to our game up in MD and they are going to be waiting for us.

I get the impression that GV loves our crowd at Cameron more than he does the MD crowd. ?

dth.

PumpkinFunk
02-21-2010, 02:56 PM
While I am among those who cheered "Cry, Greivis, Cry" this year and I have no love for Maryland due to growing up in the DC suburbs, I will also miss Greivis in Cameron next year. He is a talented player who feeds on the Crazies just as we feed on him. It's probably a negative relationship for Greivis overall, but we have fun with it in Cameron. There are few players who can galvanize the Crazies and other opposing fanbases and even feed upon them and make us louder, and ultimately I don't think anyone can replace him at that.

DukeBlueNikeShox
02-21-2010, 03:05 PM
I get the impression that GV loves our crowd at Cameron more than he does the MD crowd. ?

dth.

I think that's fair to say. Remember him telling the Maryland crowd to "SHUT THE F*CK UP!" after the Maryland fans starting booing him?! He also said: "If they don't believe in us, they can get the hell out. We don't need them anyway. We need the people who will support us, who are with us. I know they are all happy now, but they didn't believe in us when we were down. Duke, North Carolina and Virginia Tech have student sections that support their teams regardless of the performance."

Morris614
02-21-2010, 03:24 PM
I think that's fair to say. Remember him telling the Maryland crowd to "SHUT THE F*CK UP!" after the Maryland fans starting booing him?! He also said: "If they don't believe in us, they can get the hell out. We don't need them anyway. We need the people who will support us, who are with us. I know they are all happy now, but they didn't believe in us when we were down. Duke, North Carolina and Virginia Tech have student sections that support their teams regardless of the performance."

That is pretty awesome actually....much better than just saying he stayed in his room playing x box and trying to stay in his apartment as much as possible when they were down.

Cameron
02-21-2010, 06:40 PM
Love Greivis Vasquez. This is impressive stuff by an impressive player. I'll be sad to see him leave. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching him the past four years.

The comment to the Maryland crowd is legendary. It is true, they are one of the most arrogant, classless and undeserving fan bases in the entire conference. I'd tell 'em to **** off, too.

DevilHorns
02-21-2010, 09:20 PM
That is pretty awesome actually....much better than just saying he stayed in his room playing x box and trying to stay in his apartment as much as possible when they were down.

post of the week.

poor deon.

gw67
02-22-2010, 07:17 AM
Vasquez’s personal career accomplishments are very impressive. His combined points plus assists plus rebounds will likely put him in the top fifteen ACC players of all time. While his high risk/reward play is not my favorite approach, I would certainly rank him among the top five Maryland players since the mid-60’s. His best attribute is his passing; particularly, during a fast break. IMO, he ranks among the best passers in ACC history (Hurley, Blake, Corchiani, Cota, Davis and Duhon) and would have even more impressive assist totals if he didn’t share the point guard position with Hayes (about 500 career assists) and had better casts of players around him during his career. If he continues at his current pace, he should exceed the rebounding totals of the best rebounding guard in ACC history, Bruce Dalrymple.

The players he most reminds me of are Bob Sura and Brad Davis. Both were high risk/reward players and Sura was certainly one of the best all around perimeter players in ACC history while Davis was a good all around player and an exceptional passer on the break.

gw67

Franzez
02-22-2010, 12:57 PM
Are you serious?! I can't believe you're forcing me to defend Vasquez. His game can look a little awkward, but you can't ignore his stats. There was a debate on sports radio in DC last week if he was in the top 5 all time at MD. While the general consensus was that he was just outside of that list, the fact that he was in the discussion says a lot. I am definitely not a fan of Vasquez, but I'm starting to begrudgingly respect his talent. Now I have to go take another shower. Thanks a lot!

Hes overrated. Hes the #1 option on a weak Maryland team, if they had anybody else worth a damn in the last 3 years he wouldn't be getting all of the touches he gets. Maryland from top to bottom is the least talented team in the ACC, they have 0 impact players, and their players' talent/potential is not respected by outsiders. They overachieve behind GV, thats about it. When will people realize that these Maryland teams arent anywhere near the Blake/Baxter/Dixon teams of years past even the Francis/Profit/Stokes team about 10 years ago.

When you're taking 15 shots or more each game of course your numbers can look good. Hes been overrated for his statline, like I said he plays as hard as any player you'll find and with a lot of passion and goes after almost everything but hes not a talented player from a basketball standpoint. He turns the ball over a lot and takes a lot of bad shots in his attempt to draw fouls.

He got to the Draft combine and stunk it up against real competition, and then went on to test as the worst athlete of the 2009 Draft prospects.

Franzez
02-22-2010, 01:03 PM
Vasquez’s personal career accomplishments are very impressive. His combined points plus assists plus rebounds will likely put him in the top fifteen ACC players of all time. While his high risk/reward play is not my favorite approach, I would certainly rank him among the top five Maryland players since the mid-60’s. His best attribute is his passing; particularly, during a fast break. IMO, he ranks among the best passers in ACC history (Hurley, Blake, Corchiani, Cota, Davis and Duhon) and would have even more impressive assist totals if he didn’t share the point guard position with Hayes (about 500 career assists) and had better casts of players around him during his career. If he continues at his current pace, he should exceed the rebounding totals of the best rebounding guard in ACC history, Bruce Dalrymple.

The players he most reminds me of are Bob Sura and Brad Davis. Both were high risk/reward players and Sura was certainly one of the best all around perimeter players in ACC history while Davis was a good all around player and an exceptional passer on the break.

gw67

GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history.

The Top 15 players in ACC history features nothing but Dukies, Tar Heels, Tim Duncan, Matt Harpring, Ralph Sampson, John Lucas, and a few more.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 01:14 PM
gotta give it up for greivis......i like him....

I can't stand him - and I mean that as a compliment! If he played for Duke I'd love him! In that regard he is similar to Laettenr, Reddick, Hansbrough, etc. - guys that you can only like if they play for you.

davekay1971
02-22-2010, 01:18 PM
Greivis has grown on me...like a fungus, or a genital wart. For something that, when it first appeared, was irritating and unwelcome, I've had to at last become grudgingly respectful of it's tenacity and never-say-die attitude. All that said, I'll be glad when it's gone.

gw67
02-22-2010, 01:54 PM
GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history.

The Top 15 players in ACC history features nothing but Dukies, Tar Heels, Tim Duncan, Matt Harpring, Ralph Sampson, John Lucas, and a few more.

Based on your two interesting posts, I'm sorry if I almost caused you to have a heart attack. The point I was making above is that his total points plus assists plus rebounds will put him at about 3500, which according to Charlie Board would probably get him into the top 15 of ACC players. I never stated that he was one of the greatest players in ACC history, in fact I limited myself to stating that he is one of the top 5 Terps in the last 45 years or so. No big deal, we can all disagree on who we think is the best.

By the way, Vasquez is not a particularly good shooter but he has a better shooting percentage in ACC play this year than Scheyer, Delaney, Singler, Smith and Landesburg according to ACC site. He is second behind Singler in 3-pt field goal percentage.

gw67

jimsumner
02-22-2010, 02:08 PM
"The Top 15 players in ACC history features nothing but Dukies, Tar Heels, Tim Duncan, Matt Harpring, Ralph Sampson, John Lucas, and a few more. "

I'm sorry but you lost me at Matt Harpring.

CDu
02-22-2010, 02:30 PM
GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history.

The Top 15 players in ACC history features nothing but Dukies, Tar Heels, Tim Duncan, Matt Harpring, Ralph Sampson, John Lucas, and a few more.

I'd wouldn't have put Harpring anywhere in the Top-15. Seriously - you mentioned Harpring but not David Thompson? Harpring isn't even the best Georgia Tech player (Mark Price). There are a lot of ACC guys ahead of Harpring. Great player, but not on the short-list of ACC history.

jimsumner
02-22-2010, 03:25 PM
"GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history."

Let's examine this shall we?

In chronological order.

Gene Shue
Tom McMillen
Len Elmore
John Lucas
Albert King
Buck Williams
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Juan Dixon
Vasquez

Am I leaving out someone better than Vasquez?

Olympic Fan
02-22-2010, 04:02 PM
"GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history."

Let's examine this shall we?

In chronological order.

Gene Shue
Tom McMillen
Len Elmore
John Lucas
Albert King
Buck Williams
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Juan Dixon
Vasquez

Am I leaving out someone better than Vasquez?

It's before the ACC, but you are leaving off two-time All-American Louis Berger (1931-32), plus Walt Williams, Keith Booth and Steve Francis, who all made significant All-America teams in the ACC era.

It will be interesting to see what honors Vasquez wins this season. So far, he's never made a significant All-America team (one recognized by the NCAA) and he's never been first-team All-ACC. He's twice been second-team All-ACC. He'll almost certainly made first-team All-ACC this season ... he is certainly a contender for POY. It will be interesting to see which, if any, All-America teams he makes.

And while he's piled up some impressive stats, he's never played on a team that (1) won any kind of championship; (2) or finished in the AP top 25. He has played in one NCAA Tournament, winning one game.

Does that make him one of the top 10 players in Maryland history?

Hmmm ... some Maryland fan can correct me, but I fail to see how anybody can suggest that he's up there with John Lucas (the school's first consensus first-team A-A), Lenny Bias, Tom McMillen, Joe Smith or Juan Dixon. I'd argue that Gene Shue, Len Elmore and Albert King also clearly had more significant careers.

That's eight.

Buck Williams is an interesting case. I've always suggested that he's the best player in ACC history that never made first-team All-ACC (either he or Chris Corchiani). He was a second-team Converse All-American. He later became an all-pro. He was one of the best rebounds in his era and a great defender.

Walt Williams was a concensus second-team All-American in 1992. He averaged almosy 27 points a game that season. He was also very high up in assists, steals and rebounds.

Steve Francis only had one great year, but he was a second-team All-American in 1999, leading Maryland to a No. 5 finish.

Of course, if you are going to factor in team success, you might look at Al Bunge or Nick Davis off Maryland's 1958 ACC champs or Steve Blake and Lonny Baxter (a second-team Wooden A-A) off the 2003 national champs (and 2002 FF team). Even John Gilchrist, for all his problems, led the '04 Terps to the ACC championship, averaging 24 ppg and 6 assists to win the Case Award.

Vasquez still has a chance to do something special. If he can lead Maryland to a share of the 2010 ACC title or to the 2010 tournament title or to a deep NCAA run, I'd have to rate him higher. If he wins ACC POW or is a consensus second-team A-A, I'd rate him higher.

But just piling up an impressive stat portfolio -- no, as it stands, I'd rate in a class more with such fine Maryland players as Brad Davis and Mo Howard, Derrick Lewis, Adrian Branch and Keith Gatlin -- not with the Lucas, King and Dixon.

I think I understood gw67 to suggest not that Vasquez is one of the top 15 players in ACC history, but that he's one of the top 15 in cumulative points, rebounds and assists. If I read you right, then I believe you might be right (although I don't have time to check that at the moment).

If you WERE suggesting that he's one of the top 15 players in ACC history, then you are certifiably insane.

davekay1971
02-22-2010, 04:02 PM
"GV is not even a Top 10 player in Maryland basketball history let alone a Top 15 player in ACC history."

Let's examine this shall we?

In chronological order.

Gene Shue
Tom McMillen
Len Elmore
John Lucas
Albert King
Buck Williams
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Juan Dixon
Vasquez

Am I leaving out someone better than Vasquez?

Great list...

I'd submit Walt Williams (2nd team All American 1992), Steve Francis (2nd team All American 1999), and Keith Booth (3rd team All American 1997). I think Williams is clearly above Vasquez, from my own memories of watching him play. Stevie Franchise was a better talent but not necessarily a clearly better player. Keith Booth is hard to compare as more of an interior player, but he was great. Another deserving mention may be Derrick Lewis.

But thanks for mentioning Albert King, one of the underrated but truly enjoyable players in ACC history.

jimsumner
02-22-2010, 04:14 PM
Francis only played one season at UMD. Not enough, IMO.

Berger? I cut it off with the elimination of the center-jump after made baskets. Personal privilege.

Walt Williams had one of the great senior season imaginable. Maryland was on probation, players were leaving by the boatload and Williams almost single-handedly kept them competitive.

Still, WW scored 1704 points at Maryland. It took him awhile to get in gear. Career body of work, top ten? Maybe. Maybe not.

I love Keith Booth. A player K wanted badly and a player I wish had come to Duke. Still, not sure his career surpasses that of GV.

Bunge and Davis? Three-year players in a program that played possession basketball. So, the stats aren't there. Still, the '58 Maryland team was the only non BF team to win the tourny from 1954 until 1970. Deserves some respect.

I agree with OF that we'll know more in five weeks or so. But I definitely would put Vasquez well above folks like Keith Gatlin or Derick Lewis.

Olympic Fan
02-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Okay, I had some time on my hands, so I decided to see where Vasquez ranks among ACC players in cumulative points, rebounds, assists ...

I could have missed somebody, but I think Vasquez currently ranks 15th in ACC history -- although he will move up before he's finished. Let me give you the top 15, then offer a few caveats:

1. Dickie Hemric, Wake 4,389
2. Tyler Hansbrough, UNC 4,255
3. Ralph Sampson, UVa 3,896
4. Christian Laettner, Duke 3,882
5. Mike Gminski, Duke 3,693
6. Tim Duncan, Wake 3,687
7. Danny Ferry, Duke 3,664
8. Johnny Dawkins, Duke 3,647
9. Bryant Stith, UVa 3,591
10. Matt Harpring, GTech 3,511
11. Sam Perkins, UNC 3,472
12. J.J. Redick, Duke 3,450
13. Len Chappell, Wake 3,378
14. Ron Shavlik, NC State 3,359
15. Greivis Vasquez, UMd 3,356

Okay, Vasquez is going to shoot past Shavlik and Chappell very soon. But those two guys illustrate a big problem with this list:

(1) It's really unfair to the three-year players in ACC history ... some, like Dennis Scott of Georgia Tech, Jason Williams of Duke and Antwan Jamison of UNC would be in the 4,000 range if they'd returned for their senior year. It was their choice. But others -- like Chappell, Shavlik, Larry Miller, David Thompson (3,003) -- were only allowed to play three years by the rules of their era.

(2) We don't have assist totals for players who played before the mid-1970s. When you look at Hemric's total of 4,389 -- that's 2587 points and 1802 rebounds. He had SOME assists -- we just don't know how many. The same applies to Shavlik and Chappell, who are almost certainly much farther ahead of Vasquez than the numbers show.

BTW -- for the first decade that assists were passed out, the statisticians of the time were much more grudging about passing out assists that stat crews from the late 1980s on. Gminski, by today's standards, would have had more than 128 assists.

(3) Keep in mind that we're measuring just three statistical categories. If you also added steals and blocked shots, you'd change the ratings. Heck, maybe you should subtract turnovers or personal fouls.

I guess my point is that the list is interesting, but it's more a curiosity than real evidence of a player's value. FWIW, a few other players who topped 3,000 combined points, rebounds and assists:

16. Rodney Monroe, NC State 3,342
17. Shelden Williams, Duke 3,309
18. Phil Ford, UNC 3,304
19. Juan Dixon, Md. 3,238
20. Bobby Hurley, Duke 3,183
21. Grant Hill, Duke 3,134

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 06:39 PM
Gotta respect Greivis's game... his choice of schools.. not so much. I can't wait for him to be gone.. and that in and of itself is a compliment.

Olympic Fan
02-22-2010, 07:06 PM
Found one I missed -- Gene Banks (how did I miss Tinkerbell???)

He finished with 3,424 combined points/rebounds/assists -- good for 13th place on the ACC alltime list ... dropping Vasquez (temporarily) to 16th place.

I'm sitting here playing with the numbers as I watch hoops tonight (UConn up on West Virginia at the half ... which would help our RPI). I think I'm going to bring the numbers down by games played. Who had the best per game average of combined points/rebounds/assists?

I'll be back with this later tonight.

SupaDave
02-22-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm wondering, is he really that much better than Strawberry Jr.? A player who was much more valuable on the defensive end.

And I agree that Walt "THE WIZARD" Williams and Keith Booth are easily ahead of Vasquez as impact players. I mean Walt had a nickname in a time when you didn't give yourself your own nickname.

All that to say, he's a streaky player but on his worst day he's a lot better than most players on their best days. And that's saying a lot for GV. He's got next level talent - as long as he's on young legs.

As far as the whole athletic thing - haven't we heard enough about that? The kid plays to win the game...

Olympic Fan
02-22-2010, 08:57 PM
Okay, I broke down my list to reflect the most productive players -- in terms of points, rebounds and assists -- in ACC history on a per game basis. I restricted it to three and four year players.

Amazingly, the top four guys on the list are all old-time big men -- from an era when there were a lot of shots, poor shooting percentages and thus a ton of rebounds. Here's the list (players without assist totals marked by *):

1. Dickie Hemric, Wake 42.2*
2. Len Chappell, Wake 38.8*
3. Len Rosenbluth, UNC 37.1*
4. Ron Shavlik, NCS 35.4*
5. Art Heyman, Duke 35.3*
6. David Thompson, NCS 34.9*
7. Tommy Burleson, NCS 31.7*
8. Charlie Scott, UNC 31.3 (we have two years of assist totals, missing one)
9. Larry Miller, UNC 30.9*
Jeff Mullins, Duke 30.9*
11. Mike Gminski, Duke 30.2
12. Tyler Hansbrough, UNC 30.0
13. Antwan Jamison, UNC 29.8
14. Dennis Scott, GTech 29.5
15. Ralph Sampson, UVa 29.4
16. Rodney Rogers, Wake 29.4
17. Tim Duncan, Wake 28.8
18. Matt Harpring, GTech 28.3
19. Jason Williams, Duke 28.1
20. Gene Banks, Duke 27.6
21. Johnny Dawkins, Duke 27.4
22. Bryant Stith, UVa 27.3
23. Rodney Monroe, NCS 27.0
24. Phil Ford, UNC 26.9
25. Christian Laettner, Duke 26.3
26. Greivis Vasquez, UMd 26.0
27. Sam Perkins, UNC 25.9
28. Danny Ferry, Duke 25.6
29. John Roche, SC 24.9*
30. J.J. Redick, Duke 24.8

Among those that don't crack the top 30 are Michael Jordan, UNC (24.5), Shane Battier (21.3), Mark Price (24.1) and Grant Hill (21.3).

Among our current players, Singler is 24.3 for his career (pretty close to Michael Jordan!) and Scheyer is 20.3.

pfrduke
02-22-2010, 09:17 PM
By the way, Vasquez is not a particularly good shooter but he has a better shooting percentage in ACC play this year than Scheyer, Delaney, Singler, Smith and Landesburg according to ACC site. He is second behind Singler in 3-pt field goal percentage.

gw67

I have to say this shocked me. He's been a very sub-par shooter in his prior three years, especially from outside: 32.7% as a junior, 30.9% as a soph, and 31.6% as a freshman. You've almost certainly watched him more than I have - does it look like his form has improved? Is he taking more uncontested threes? Or is this simply an aberrant performance? If it's the latter, I actually think that's cause for concern - absent external improvement, odds are that he's really a 31-32% shooter from 3, and will regress to the mean over the remainder of the season.

just_wondering
02-22-2010, 09:53 PM
Vasquez is the first great Maryland player to play his entire career ComCast Center. You hear of the dead ball era in baseball. Vasquez played in the dead crowd era at the ComCast center. If he had played in front of the crowds that the Elmore/McMillen/Lucas or Dixon/Blake/Baxter teams played his team would have more home games.

He is only Terrapin to lead the team in scoring, assists and rebounds in the same season.

He is only one of 3 Terps to have a triple double in a game.

He richly deserves to have his jersey retired. In 5 or 10 years now he will be arguably considered one of the best players in Maryland history.

gw67
02-23-2010, 07:11 AM
I'm wondering, is he really that much better than Strawberry Jr.? A player who was much more valuable on the defensive end.

And I agree that Walt "THE WIZARD" Williams and Keith Booth are easily ahead of Vasquez as impact players. I mean Walt had a nickname in a time when you didn't give yourself your own nickname.

All that to say, he's a streaky player but on his worst day he's a lot better than most players on their best days. And that's saying a lot for GV. He's got next level talent - as long as he's on young legs.

As far as the whole athletic thing - haven't we heard enough about that? The kid plays to win the game...

As one who has seen a bunch of Maryland games and players since I started dating my future wife while she was a grad student at Maryland in the early 70's, I concur with Gary Williams re Vasquez. Williams considers Vasquez one of the 5-7 greatest Terps of all time. I understand that folks who don't watch a lot of Maryland games are amazed when he is described in this manner but he is definitely among the top players to ever play at Maryland. Off the top of my head I would only put Bias, Dixon, Lucas, Smith and McMillan ahead of him. IMO, he is better than King, Branch, Blake, Booth and Baxter. Walt Williams is comparable. By the way, he is a very underated defensive player.

To respond to another post, Vasquez is playing under more control this year and, as a result, he is taking better shots on the average. His outside shooting is much better because (1) he has worked on it and (2) he tries to square up before shooting. He has been a good foul shooter for his entire career so it makes sense that he can be a decent outside shooter once he limits himself to good shots.

gw67

gw67
02-23-2010, 07:35 AM
I didn’t see this discussed on the ACC Roundup page but Vasquez has earned his 3rd ACC player of the week award this season. As a Duke fan for nearly 50 years and a reader/participant on this site since the parquet (sp?) floor days, I am continually surprised that we have difficulty acknowledging good play by opposition players, particularly those from UNC and Maryland.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/022210aaa.html

gw67

Highlander
02-23-2010, 08:11 AM
I think Vasquez has had a stellar career at Maryland and is in the discussion about having his # retired. He reminds me of Maryland's version of Shane Battier - a utility guy that stuffs the stat sheet in a number of different areas. Shane was a better defender, Vasquez is a better scorer, but the comparison of a stat sheet stuffer is similar. The one thing he hasn't done is win a championship of any form while at Maryland.

That being said, I always take with a grain of salt "firsts" where a player's career stats across a number of different categories are combined. It just seems like you're saying "Well, he's not the best in any one thing, so we'll draw a trend line across some seemingly disparate stats to show he's the best." I felt the same way when a similar trend line was done for Mr. Battier.

camion
02-23-2010, 08:46 AM
I wouldn't downgrade Vasquez for not winning championships. It almost always takes outstanding teammates to do that no matter how good the individual player.

jimsumner
02-23-2010, 09:29 AM
"That being said, I always take with a grain of salt "firsts" where a player's career stats across a number of different categories are combined. It just seems like you're saying "Well, he's not the best in any one thing, so we'll draw a trend line across some seemingly disparate stats to show he's the best." "

Except that 2,000 points is pretty darn impressive by itself. When Scheyer reaches that level this year, we'll rightly hail that as a significant achievement.

just_wondering
02-23-2010, 09:52 AM
I would say compare apples to apples. Coach Williams doesn't recruit the same level of talent that Coach Driesell recruited. Of the players that played for Coach Williams Vasquez is probably the best. Only 1 of 5 ACC players to be ACC player of the week 3 times in a year in two different years

jimsumner
02-23-2010, 10:00 AM
"I would say compare apples to apples. Coach Williams doesn't recruit the same level of talent that Coach Driesell recruited. Of the players that played for Coach Williams Vasquez is probably the best"

Well, Joe Smith was consensus national player of the year in 1995 and the first pick in the NBA draft as a sophomore. Juan Dixon edged Jason Williams for the 2002 ACC POY award.

I'm pretty sure GV isn't going to be national POY or first pick in the draft, so I'll stick with Smith.

SupaDave
02-23-2010, 10:54 AM
As one who has seen a bunch of Maryland games and players since I started dating my future wife while she was a grad student at Maryland in the early 70's, I concur with Gary Williams re Vasquez. Williams considers Vasquez one of the 5-7 greatest Terps of all time. I understand that folks who don't watch a lot of Maryland games are amazed when he is described in this manner but he is definitely among the top players to ever play at Maryland. Off the top of my head I would only put Bias, Dixon, Lucas, Smith and McMillan ahead of him. IMO, he is better than King, Branch, Blake, Booth and Baxter. Walt Williams is comparable. By the way, he is a very underated defensive player.

To respond to another post, Vasquez is playing under more control this year and, as a result, he is taking better shots on the average. His outside shooting is much better because (1) he has worked on it and (2) he tries to square up before shooting. He has been a good foul shooter for his entire career so it makes sense that he can be a decent outside shooter once he limits himself to good shots.

gw67

I can't say he's better than Booth. Booth was/IS very important to that UMD program. He re-opened the recruiting doors to Baltimore - a city that had frozen out UMD.

Not just that but his stats and accolades outweigh GV...


Booth authored one of the finest careers in Maryland basketball history from 1994-97. The four-time All-ACC honoree led the Terrapins to four NCAA Tournaments, including a pair of Sweet Sixteen appearances, and in 1994 began Maryland's streak of 11-consecutive NCAA berths. A versatile and powerful athlete, Booth led his squad in scoring (19.5 ppg), rebounding (7.9 rpg) and steals (2.0 spg) as a senior and is Maryland's career leader in free throws made (576). He is among the Terps' all-time leaders in scoring (8th, 1,776 points), rebounding (6th, 916) and steals (5th, 193) and is one of 15 players in school history to have his jersey honored above the Terps' home court at Comcast Center.

gw67
02-23-2010, 01:04 PM
Supa - I liked Booth as a player and I suspect that he is one of the players not mentioned by Williams when he stated that Vasquez is one of the top 5-7 players in Maryland history; however, I just don't believe that his career stats eclipse those of Vasquez. I don't know where you got the quote but I'm pretty sure that Booth made 1st team All ACC as a senior and 3rd team as a junior (I corroborated on Charlie Board). It is likely that Vasquez will make 1st team this year and he has been 2nd team for both his sophmore and junior years. They played different positions but Vasquez will have more points and a better career scoring average, less rebounds (about 300), and more assists (about 400). I expect Vasquez to join Booth in the rafters. We'll just have to disagree.

gw67

Olympic Fan
02-23-2010, 03:37 PM
gw67,

Just curious ... who are YOUR top 10 players in Maryland history? Does Vasquez make the list? If so, does he make it barely or easily?

gw67
02-24-2010, 08:48 AM
Olympic,

My top ten would be as follows:

Juan Dixon
John Lucas
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Tom McMillan
Greives Vasquez
Len Elmore
Lonny Baxter
Albert King
tie Steve Blake, Johnny Rhodes

gw67

greybeard
02-24-2010, 09:36 AM
Olympic,

My top ten would be as follows:

Juan Dixon
John Lucas
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Tom McMillan
Greives Vasquez
Len Elmore
Lonny Baxter
Albert King
tie Steve Blake, Johnny Rhodes

gw67

What about the three guys not mentioned who had long NBA careers the two Williams (Buck and the guy who saved the program by staying when Gary arrived) and Davis. Also, a forward named I think Steve Smith who I think played for Knight in the Olympics, and Owen Brown? Of course there is my fav, O'Brien.

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 09:40 AM
"My top ten would be as follows:

Juan Dixon
John Lucas
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Tom McMillan
Greives Vasquez
Len Elmore
Lonny Baxter
Albert King
tie Steve Blake, Johnny Rhodes"


Credible. Seven good picks.

You really like that '02 team, don't you?

IMO, Baxter, Blake and Rhodes are nowhere near top ten, not when
Gene Shue, Walt Williams, Buck Williams, Keith Booth, Adrian Branch, even Jay McMillen or Will Hetzel are unclaimed.

flyingdutchdevil
02-24-2010, 09:42 AM
Greives is probably the most important player to any team in the ACC. Singler, Scheyer, and Smith are all extremely talented and amazing, but the drop in productivity of losing one of them would be no where near the drop in productivity for UMD losing Greives. For this reason, couple with his sick stat line, Greives will probably get ACC POY.

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 09:43 AM
"Also, a forward named I think Steve Smith who I think played for Knight in the Olympics, and Owen Brown"

And Greybeard likes that 1976 team. I think you mean Steve Sheppard. And the late Owen Brown in the top ten? The same Owen Brown who averaged 9.1 ppg and 5.1 rpg for his career? I'll pass.

gw67
02-24-2010, 10:14 AM
"My top ten would be as follows:

Juan Dixon
John Lucas
Len Bias
Joe Smith
Tom McMillan
Greives Vasquez
Len Elmore
Lonny Baxter
Albert King
tie Steve Blake, Johnny Rhodes"


Credible. Seven good picks.

You really like that '02 team, don't you?

IMO, Baxter, Blake and Rhodes are nowhere near top ten, not when
Gene Shue, Walt Williams, Buck Williams, Keith Booth, Adrian Branch, even Jay McMillen or Will Hetzel are unclaimed.


Jim,

To answer your question - Yes, I do like the 2002 team as well as the Lucas, McMillan and Elmore team.

Of those that you mentioned, I should have listed Keith Booth with Blake and Rhodes. I didn't list Shue because I didn't see him play in college although he was a very good player for the Pistons.

Of the remaining, I think Baxter, Blake and Rhodes had better careers than Buck Williams, Walt Williams and Adrian Branch although I understand a case can be made for including them in a top ten. Others such as Ben Coleman, Jay McMillan, Will Hetzel, Brad Davis, Greg Manning, and Derick Lewis had good careers and got some honors but I think their careers are a notch below the others.

Just my opinion based on a foggy memory and a brief visit to the Md records database.

gw67

just_wondering
02-24-2010, 11:04 AM
GW67,

Ernie Graham is another player who had his moments when playing for the Terps.

Johnny Rhodes was the honorary captain in a recent game. He graduated in December.

Larry Gibson was the honorary captain on Saturday. Lefty escorted LG to the free throw line because LG has to use a walker. Lefty the epitome of class. I haven't been able to find out why LG uses a walker.




Jim,

To answer your question - Yes, I do like the 2002 team as well as the Lucas, McMillan and Elmore team.

Of those that you mentioned, I should have listed Keith Booth with Blake and Rhodes. I didn't list Shue because I didn't see him play in college although he was a very good player for the Pistons.

Of the remaining, I think Baxter, Blake and Rhodes had better careers than Buck Williams, Walt Williams and Adrian Branch although I understand a case can be made for including them in a top ten. Others such as Ben Coleman, Jay McMillan, Will Hetzel, Brad Davis, Greg Manning, and Derick Lewis had good careers and got some honors but I think their careers are a notch below the others.

Just my opinion based on a foggy memory and a brief visit to the Md records database.

gw67

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 11:16 AM
Check out Gene Shue folks. Leaving him off an all-time Maryland team is like leaving Dick Groat off an all-time Duke team. Shue was a five-time NBA All-star.

And by the way, it's Jay and Tom McMillen. With an E.

And GW, Buck Williams would have taken Lonny Baxter's lunch money and dissed his mama. :)

gw67
02-24-2010, 11:21 AM
j_w,

Thanks for the info. IMO, Rhodes is the most underrated Maryland player since I've been following the Terps. He was a terrific all around player and guarded the best perimeter player on the opposition. Graham was a nice offensive player on a couple of good teams (King, Williams, Manning). I recall the 2-3 occasions when he and Lee Raker of Virginia got into it. Both were competitive players. Sorry to hear about Gibson.

gw67

gw67
02-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Check out Gene Shue folks. Leaving him off an all-time Maryland team is like leaving Dick Groat off an all-time Duke team. Shue was a five-time NBA All-star.

And by the way, it's Jay and Tom McMillen. With an E.

And GW, Buck Williams would have taken Lonny Baxter's lunch money and dissed his mama. :)

Jim,

I am not dissing Buck. I loved watching him take it to Ralph Sampson even though he was eight inches shorter. He was very tough and a great rebounder and defender but he was limited offensively. You may be right about a matchup with Baxter but I based my list on who I thought had the better career not who was the better player.

gw67

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 11:43 AM
ACC career stats

Baxter 13.5 ppg
Williams 13.6 ppg

Baxter 7.2 rpg
Williams 10.9 rpg

Baxter 55.3 fg%
Williams 61.5%

Baxter 60 ft%
Williams 62.3%

Baxter 1.7 bpg
Williams 1.0 bpg

BTW, who would win the Williams battle?

For Duke-Jason, Shelden, Elliott, Weldon and Allan

For Maryland-Buck, Walt, Gary, Brian and Steve.

Steve Williams was a walk-on who played six minutes in the late '80s. Probably swings it towards Duke.

just_wondering
02-24-2010, 11:47 AM
Add Jordan Williams to the Maryland clan



ACC career stats

Baxter 13.5 ppg
Williams 13.6 ppg

Baxter 7.2 rpg
Williams 10.9 rpg

Baxter 55.3 fg%
Williams 61.5%

Baxter 60 ft%
Williams 62.3%

Baxter 1.7 bpg
Williams 1.0 bpg

BTW, who would win the Williams battle?

For Duke-Jason, Shelden, Elliott, Weldon and Allan

For Maryland-Buck, Walt, Gary, Brian and Steve.

Steve Williams was a walk-on who played six minutes in the late '80s. Probably swings it towards Duke.

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 11:59 AM
How could I forget Jordan?

Insert image of Homer hitting head and going duh!

Jordan sends Steve to the bench and may well swing it to the Terps.

brevity
02-24-2010, 12:01 PM
BTW, who would win the Williams battle?

For Duke-Jason, Shelden, Elliott, Weldon and Allan

For Maryland-Buck, Walt, Gary, Brian and Steve.

Steve Williams was a walk-on who played six minutes in the late '80s. Probably swings it towards Duke.

They'd both take down UNC's All-Williams team: Donald, Scott, Shammond, Jawad, Marvin, Roy(?)

An ACC All-Williams tournament (done poll style) sounds like a good idea... for the offseason.

gw67
02-24-2010, 12:17 PM
Jim,

I feel like a boxer who has lost the first three rounds of a fight. OK, the following are the reasons why I thought Baxter had a better career.

• Baxter played for 4 seasons not 3.
• Unlike Williams, he did not start immediately as a freshman and as a result his career ppg and rpg don’t reflect the very strong soph, junior and senior seasons he had. Like Laettner, he came on strong and averaged 15.5 ppg and 8.4 rpg for his three full seasons.
• During his three full seasons he was 1st team All ACC twice and 2nd team once. Buck made 2nd team twice. He never was chosen for 1st team All ACC.
• Of course, Baxter was the anchor on two Final Four teams.

gw67

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 01:05 PM
Actually, Baxter was first-team All-ACC in 2000, second-team in 2001 and 2002. He finished sixth in the voting in 2002, 12 points behind Boozer (211-199).

Williams was second team in 1980 and 1981, losing out on a spot in '81 to Gene Banks.

So, they have something in common. :)

Buck was ACC ROY in 1979.

One played for Lefty, one for Gary. Is that wash? :)

If it matters any, Buck Williams made the ACC's 50th anniversary team, announced in the fall of 2002. Baxter did not. Other Terps on that team were Len Bias, Juan Dixon, Len Elmore, Albert King, John Lucas, Tom McMillen and Joe Smith.

gw67
02-24-2010, 01:20 PM
After the season, it would be interesting to debate which players who played since 2002 deserve to be among the top 50 and who would they replace. IMO, Redick and Hansbrough would be certain.

gw67

greybeard
02-24-2010, 02:07 PM
"Also, a forward named I think Steve Smith who I think played for Knight in the Olympics, and Owen Brown"

And Greybeard likes that 1976 team. I think you mean Steve Sheppard. And the late Owen Brown in the top ten? The same Owen Brown who averaged 9.1 ppg and 5.1 rpg for his career? I'll pass.

Didn't Owen play on a team that was loaded? I thought he played with Elmore, McMillian, Lucas, and his running mate who was damn good by the way, and maybe even Davis. Not much room for scoring with that group. I thought he died before getting to showcase himself after that. Do I have my facts all wrong?

What I remember about Owen was that he was very long and very economical in his play. Reminded me a bit of Connie Hawkins. I thought that he played great defense and scored the ball in a variety of ways, that presented match up problems for anyone. Might have been a terrific pro.

Shephard was the best small forward I have seen at Maryland, and competed well against some great players. Very, very tough mentally and physically and clutch.

greybeard
02-24-2010, 02:14 PM
Buck Williams regularly outplayed Duke's All-American Center, Ralph, and whoever UNC and State had in the middle. He was the best defender perhaps ever in the ACC and the best power forward rebounder.

Had Buck played for Gary on that team instead of Baxter, Maryland would have won back-to- back NCAAs.

Buck would have eaten Baxter alive.

gw67
02-24-2010, 02:22 PM
Didn't Owen play on a team that was loaded? I thought he played with Elmore, McMillian, Lucas, and his running mate who was damn good by the way, and maybe even Davis. Not much room for scoring with that group. I thought he died before getting to showcase himself after that. Do I have my facts all wrong?

What I remember about Owen was that he was very long and very economical in his play. Reminded me a bit of Connie Hawkins. I thought that he played great defense and scored the ball in a variety of ways, that presented match up problems for anyone. Might have been a terrific pro.

Shephard was the best small forward I have seen at Maryland, and competed well against some great players. Very, very tough mentally and physically and clutch.

Owen Brown played on team with Lucas, McMillen, Elmore and Mo Howard. If my memory is correct, he shared playing time with Tom Roy. He died of a heart attack while at Maryland.

gw67

jimsumner
02-24-2010, 02:28 PM
Owen Brown reminded you of Connie Hawkins? A bit of a reach, methinks. But I love the reference.

Brown did indeed play on a loaded team and did die tragically young. He was one class behind McMillen and Elmore, one class ahead of Lucas and Mo Howard. Tom Roy was his classmate. Brown was one of six Terps to average double figures in points in 1975; only the 1989 UNC team has duplicated that feat in the ACC. He did make second-team All-ACC in 1975, 10th in the voting.

He might have had a chance to stick with an NBA team, as a complementary player. At best he might have been a Tony Massenburg type. But no one ever viewed him as an NBA lock. Sheppard only stuck in the NBA for a couple of unmemorable seasons and he was more talented than Brown, imo.

So, I don't think he should make any short list of great Maryland players. If we use the he-played-with-great players argument, we could elevate Thomas Hill to the Duke top ten.

Still, a sad might-have-been.

just_wondering
02-24-2010, 02:53 PM
Tom Roy was a phenom in high school. I think he made it to the basketball hall of fame in some capacity based on high school.

Owen Brown and Chris Patton both passed away in 1976 from heart related conditions.





Owen Brown reminded you of Connie Hawkins? A bit of a reach, methinks. But I love the reference.

Brown did indeed play on a loaded team and did die tragically young. He was one class behind McMillen and Elmore, one class ahead of Lucas and Mo Howard. Tom Roy was his classmate. Brown was one of six Terps to average double figures in points in 1975; only the 1989 UNC team has duplicated that feat in the ACC. He did make second-team All-ACC in 1975, 10th in the voting.

He might have had a chance to stick with an NBA team, as a complementary player. At best he might have been a Tony Massenburg type. But no one ever viewed him as an NBA lock. Sheppard only stuck in the NBA for a couple of unmemorable seasons and he was more talented than Brown, imo.

So, I don't think he should make any short list of great Maryland players. If we use the he-played-with-great players argument, we could elevate Thomas Hill to the Duke top ten.

Still, a sad might-have-been.

greybeard
02-24-2010, 03:47 PM
Owen Brown reminded you of Connie Hawkins? A bit of a reach, methinks. But I love the reference.

Brown did indeed play on a loaded team and did die tragically young. He was one class behind McMillen and Elmore, one class ahead of Lucas and Mo Howard. Tom Roy was his classmate. Brown was one of six Terps to average double figures in points in 1975; only the 1989 UNC team has duplicated that feat in the ACC. He did make second-team All-ACC in 1975, 10th in the voting.

He might have had a chance to stick with an NBA team, as a complementary player. At best he might have been a Tony Massenburg type. But no one ever viewed him as an NBA lock. Sheppard only stuck in the NBA for a couple of unmemorable seasons and he was more talented than Brown, imo.

So, I don't think he should make any short list of great Maryland players. If we use the he-played-with-great players argument, we could elevate Thomas Hill to the Duke top ten.

Still, a sad might-have-been.

Very good! Not much to quibble with here, but let me try.

Owen guarded people like David Thompson and others and did a very credible job of it. He ran the floor terrifically. He had a glide to the basket as he dribbled with ease, and had a swoop to his finish. While he did not have Hawkins mamoth hands and probably not his hops (okay not his hops), he hurt you inside and out, turning either way with his back to the basket and with a big step or two got rid of the thing, usually in the basket, thus the Hawk reference, which I'm glad you enjoyed and was, as you point out, a bit of a stretch.

As a long 6'9" forward with an inside/outside game and a willingness to do the dirty work, I think that he was an extraordinary player who was lost in the crowd. Had they decided to feature him instead of Tom I don't know that Maryland would have lost anything at that position. Of course, they would have had no one to play the 3. This was Maryland's lone Worthy/Jamison/BobbyJones type power forward, perhaps with a little more power than those three, and maybe less scoring than the first two. (Jones remains among my favorite players ever; loved how he played on the half-note, if you know what I mean).

Sheppard was born to be coached by Lefty, that is, motivated by Lefty, and sent into battle. Owen seemed more nuanced. I think Owen's having played on a loaded team held him back, and I loved how T Hill developed, I mean loved!

Fun thread, and great post.

gotoguy
02-24-2010, 09:55 PM
The fact that those great John Lucas led Maryland teams never made it to the NCAA tourney in the early 70's help prompt the NCAA to expand the tourney.

Growing up in basketball crazy Illinois I had the pleasure of attending many Illinois state basketball playoffs held at the time in the Assembly Hall on the U of I campus. It was not unlike the old ACC tourney with 8 teams playing over three days, only it was played in two days with the quarterfinals on Friday and the semis on Saturday afternoon ant the 3rd place and Finals on Saturday night.

The 1970 champ was LaGrange a suburban school led by Marcus Washington who later played for Al McGuire at Marquette. In the final which LaGrange won 71-52 over East Moline junior Owen Brown led the way with 24 points and a then record 24 rebounds for a final game. How Owen escaped to Maryland was always a mystery to me but then Lefty could recruit. Brown died of a congenital heart defect as I recall, a tragic ending to a promising career. A solid performer on some great teams.

greybeard
02-24-2010, 10:32 PM
The fact that those great John Lucas led Maryland teams never made it to the NCAA tourney in the early 70's help prompt the NCAA to expand the tourney.

Growing up in basketball crazy Illinois I had the pleasure of attending many Illinois state basketball playoffs held at the time in the Assembly Hall on the U of I campus. It was not unlike the old ACC tourney with 8 teams playing over three days, only it was played in two days with the quarterfinals on Friday and the semis on Saturday afternoon ant the 3rd place and Finals on Saturday night.

The 1970 champ was LaGrange a suburban school led by Marcus Washington who later played for Al McGuire at Marquette. In the final which LaGrange won 71-52 over East Moline junior Owen Brown led the way with 24 points and a then record 24 rebounds for a final game. How Owen escaped to Maryland was always a mystery to me but then Lefty could recruit. Brown died of a congenital heart defect as I recall, a tragic ending to a promising career. A solid performer on some great teams.

I thought he was from Maryland. There is an expressway in or near Columbia Maryland, which is just about halfway between College Park and Baltimore, that is named after Owen; "Owen Brown Parkway" it is called. He had an impact.

just_wondering
02-24-2010, 11:10 PM
Owen Brown in Howard County was named after a local landowner



I thought he was from Maryland. There is an expressway in or near Columbia Maryland, which is just about halfway between College Park and Baltimore, that is named after Owen; "Owen Brown Parkway" it is called. He had an impact.

jimsumner
02-25-2010, 08:14 AM
"The fact that those great John Lucas led Maryland teams never made it to the NCAA tourney in the early 70's help prompt the NCAA to expand the tourney."

Actuallly, Maryland made the 1973 tourny, when Lucas was a freshman. Lost to Providence in the East region finals. State was on probation that year.

It was the 1974 season and that memorable ACC Tournament title game between Maryland and NCSU that precipitated the change.

77devil
02-25-2010, 08:53 AM
Buck Williams regularly outplayed Duke's All-American Center, Ralph, and whoever UNC and State had in the middle. He was the best defender perhaps ever in the ACC and the best power forward rebounder.

Had Buck played for Gary on that team instead of Baxter, Maryland would have won back-to- back NCAAs.

Buck would have eaten Baxter alive.

Actually G-Man's stats were slightly better than Buck's in the games they played against each other, and at the 3 games I attended, G-Man was the more dominant player. I agree that Buck was a tremendous player, but you just make stuff up.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 09:17 AM
Actually G-Man's stats were slightly better than Buck's in the games they played against each other, and at the 3 games I attended, G-Man was the more dominant player. I agree that Buck was a tremendous player, but you just make stuff up.

I saw Maryland beat the much more highly ranked Duke at Cole and Buck won the day, decidedly, against not only G, but B and D also. Maryland had nothing on the boards but Buck. If you say G outrebounded Buck in other games, I believe it. I suppose my point would have better been said that Buck held his own against the great centers in the ACC at the time, even though he wasn't a center, was a terrific shot blocker of the sort Maryland had not seen since Elmore, and had a stellar pro career which was entirely predictable. A competitor who never took a play off.

Has to be the best player in Maryland history, imo. Some might say Lucas but as a guard in that era I preferred Brad Davis for how he ran the break. Those underhand passes off the bounce without catching first, some going half the court, were novel and terrific.

I can't believe that that road is named after a land developer. Everytime I pass it, which in the last four years was a fair amount, I'd do a figurative tip of my cap. To a freakin land lord, ugh! :(

Everyday an old man takes his 5 year old grandson to the park to pay their respects to Ulysses S. Grant, a statute of the General on a great stead, telling his grandson, "That there, son, is Uylsess S. Grant and we are here to pay our respects." One day the kid says, "Grandpa, I have a question. Who is that man on Uyleses S. Grant?" Baddaboom

duke4life32182
02-25-2010, 09:31 AM
He has had a great career. Congratulations to your achievement. You have another thumping coming to you though very shortly. Go Duke!

greybeard
02-25-2010, 09:55 AM
He has had a great career. Congratulations to your achievement. You have another thumping coming to you though very shortly. Go Duke!

In the post Lefty era, the only time I can remember rooting for Maryland over Duke was during the Blake era--I loved his game and thought that he dictated how Maryland played, which on offense was quite exciting. Who could not also love Dixon's play. They shared the ball well; everyone was a scorer. I like that.

This year, as in many others, I root for Duke.

jimsumner
02-25-2010, 10:55 AM
Gminski and Buck Williams played against each other five times in college.

Gminski had a clear edge in 1979 in Cameron, 22 [points] and 14 [rebounds]. Williams failed to reach double figures in either category. The 1980 Cameron game was a draw, Williams 21/11, Gminski 21/9.

In Cole? 1979 Williams 10/13, Gminski 14/10
1980 Williams 18/12, Gminski 17/12

The last meeting was the 1980 ACC Tournament title game. Gminski had
13/7, Williams 14/7.

The home teams won all four regular-season games, with Duke winning the tourny game.

The 1979 Maryland team included Larry Gibson. But Williams was pretty much on his own inside in 1980, unless you consider Taylor Baldwin a significant asset.

Williams' best game vis-a-vis a great center likely was the 1981 ACC Tournament semifinals, when Maryland upset Virginia. Williams went 11/14 but more importantly held national POY Ralph Sampson to 10/8, as the Terps thrased Virginia 85-62. Keep in mind that Williams was giving up eight inches to Sampson.

Sam Perkins, however, outplayed Williams the next night in the title game.

Gminski and Williams were teammates in the NBA and speak quite highly of each other.

just_wondering
02-25-2010, 11:34 AM
Everything that is Greivis was on display last night. He is like watching Byron Mouton-Juan Dixon-Steve Blake in one body. I will miss him next year


I think that since Duke is one of the favorites for the National Championship they should start resting their players starting next Wednesday

Olympic Fan
02-25-2010, 12:10 PM
Owen guarded people like David Thompson and others and did a very credible job of it. He ran the floor terrifically.

While I remember Owen Brown fondly and think he was a good defender, the one guy he absolutely COULD NOT guard was David Thompson.

Thompson regularly torched the Terps -- it started with Super Bowl Sunday, when DT scored 37 points. Brown played 23 minutes in that game and was one of four Terps to guard DT -- Roy, Bodell and Darrell Brown also got a chance).

In the rematch in Raleigh, DT only scored 24, but Brown played just two minutes.

In the 1973 ACC title game, DT has his one poor game against Maryland, scoring 10 points, but Brown played just 12 minutes in that game.

A year later, Thompson scored 41-39-29 in three games against the Terps with Brown and Roy getting most of the defensive minutes against him. A year later, Thompson scored 33 and 38 in the regular season -- although Maryland broke its six-game losing streak to Thompson and the Pack with two wins in 1975. But in the ACC semifinal, Thompson scored 30 points in 27 minutes before he was sidelined with cramps ... and State held on to beat Maryland.

So in nine games against Brown and the Terps, Thompson was 7-2 with a 30.1 average against the Terps -- I'd say most of that was against Brown and Roy.

Not ripping on Owen Brown -- almost nobody could defend Thompson and "do a credible job".

BTW: Maryland actually made the NCAA Tournament in two of Lucas' four years -- in 1973 by replacing probation NC State; 1975 as an at large team after winning the regular season and losing in the tourney. They would have gone in 1976 too, except Virginia (the ACC's sixth place team) upset regular season champ UNC in the finals. That year just two ACC teams could have gone ... if UNC had won the finals, Maryland would have gotten the at large bid.

But agree that 1974 -- when No. 3 Maryland was denied a chance to compete for the NCAA title had a lot to do with forcing the NCAA to change its rules.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 12:40 PM
Jimsummer and Olympic Fan, your posts make me understand what people like SG are talking about when they pine for the old days. The quality and and tone of content and writing inspire. Thanks!

SFDukie
03-03-2010, 11:16 AM
I realize there is a Vasquez thread extent, but thought this WaPo poll and question (up today) might be of interest.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the65/2010/03/poll_where_does_greivis_vasque.html


The spotlight will be on Maryland senior Greivis Vasquez tonight at Comcast Center. Have you thought about where Vasquez ranks among all-time greats at Maryland? Coach Gary Williams says Vasquez ranks among the top five to seven players to ever suit up for the Terrapins. You can rattle off the names of other greats pretty easily. Juan Dixon. Len Bias. John Lucas. Walt Williams. Albert King. Joe Smith. Tom McMillen. Etc. Do you put Vasquez in the top seven to ever play for Maryland?



Hmm. Interesting question. IMO Lucas, McMillen and possibly the unmentioned Elmore, on the '74 team which lost to eventual NCAA champs NCSU in OT in the ACC championship game were a cut above. Smith was a national POY. Lucas, King, Bias, Smith and Dixon were all first team AAs. Dixon's stats were fairly comparable to Vasquez's...

OZZIE4DUKE
03-03-2010, 11:21 AM
I realize there is a Vasquez thread extent, but thought this WaPo poll and question (up today) might be of interest.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the65/2010/03/poll_where_does_greivis_vasque.html


The spotlight will be on Maryland senior Greivis Vasquez tonight at Comcast Center. Have you thought about where Vasquez ranks among all-time greats at Maryland? Coach Gary Williams says Vasquez ranks among the top five to seven players to ever suit up for the Terrapins. You can rattle off the names of other greats pretty easily. Juan Dixon. Len Bias. John Lucas. Walt Williams. Albert King. Joe Smith. Tom McMillen. Etc. Do you put Vasquez in the top seven to ever play for Maryland?
Hmm. Interesting question. IMO Lucas, McMillen and possibly the unmentioned Elmore, on the '74 team which lost to eventual NCAA champs NCSU in OT in the ACC championship game were a cut above. Smith was a national POY. Lucas, King, Bias, Smith and Dixon were all first team AAs. Dixon's stats were fairly comparable to Vasquez's...
I wouldn't put Vasquez ahead of any of those other great Maryland players, and I saw them all play against Duke in Cameron. But he is a great player this year and is knocking on the door.

slower
03-03-2010, 11:27 AM
let's add Buck Williams and Steve Francis to that list ahead of Vasquez.

superdave
03-03-2010, 11:27 AM
How many NCAA games has Maryland won with Vasquez on the squad? None?

I think that puts him behind Blake/Dixon/Baxter right there. You cant just be a regular season stats guy. You actually have to win in the postseason to be great.

roywhite
03-03-2010, 11:29 AM
Vasquez is right there with Jim "Bozo" O'Brien, Maryland class of 1973, but with a better haircut. :)

Or maybe slightly ahead of Steve Blake, not at the level of Juan Dixon.

Matches
03-03-2010, 11:34 AM
Agreed he needs some postseason success to really cement his legacy. It doesn't necessarily have to be a deep NCAA run. An ACC-T title would go a long way.

78Devil
03-03-2010, 03:57 PM
Roywhite -- I remember Jim O'Brien so well! I grew up in Maryland and was a fan of the Maryland team during the early-mid 70s. The talent level at Md/State/UNC during those years was awesome (one reason why I really do like Len Elmore as an announcer, even tho' so many on this Board think he is a Duke hater, which I do not). I actually think the O'Brien comparison to Vasquez is pretty good, but mainly because O'Brien was better than he's given credit for.

I like Vasquez, and if he had the talent around him that some of the other MD teams have had, he would have been even better. Its hard being asked to carry a team mainly by yourself....On the flip side, one of the reasons why his stats are as good as they are is that he doesn't have many others on his team to share those stats with night in and night out.

Let's just hope Duke can shut him down tonight!