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77devil
02-18-2010, 05:17 PM
Wilbon and Kornheiser ribbed Coach K on PTI today for the conch shell confiscation last night even though K's request was within the rules. No mention, however, of Ol' Roy and the Presbyterian fan. Oh well, I guess it's just another day in Bristol.

weezie
02-18-2010, 05:31 PM
Yeah, I just saw that, too. The conch was really loud, I heard it over the speaker phone that was near the tv in our office, since I was stuck at home with a dead satellite. I asked if that was an air horn at the time. The idiot refs could have acted a bit more quickly, you can bet they would have inside Cameron.

Really though, watching PTI every day must be like serving a sentence. I catch it while traveling sometimes and it never fails to unimpress. I think their writers are all dopes. Willie and Tone-stupid are getting a little long in the tooth for the gig anyway.

slower
02-18-2010, 05:48 PM
Wilbon seems to feel the need to pander to their perceived demographic by making the occasional misogynistic comment or letting us all know just how "manly" he is.

VanDuk
02-18-2010, 06:02 PM
Yeah.. apparently it's a real shame.. and quite worthy of talk when an opposing coach expects fans to you know.. follow the rules.

That shell was loud on TV.. I can't imagine how loud it must have been at the actual game. I'm sure K worried the whole flight back to Durham about what Kornheiser would think.

Welcome2DaSlopes
02-18-2010, 06:22 PM
The question was if it was fair or foul and they voiced their opinion on the topic. Tony was making a joke out of it and Mike thought it wasn't the right thing to do. I don't see the problem there. They made very valid points.

jwg
02-18-2010, 06:34 PM
As I understood them, they believe and said that blowing the shell was not against the rules, and K's request should not have been honored. Does anyone here know for certain it it was against the rules?

dukeblue1206
02-18-2010, 06:37 PM
I saw this as well. When I saw the word "conch" on the list of subjects I knew a ribbing was coming. There was a funny exchange between the two about it that went something like this:

Wilbon- "Miami should tell him he doesn't own the gym and should be able to use the conch"

Korn- Tell who? Coach K that he doesn't own the gym? Coach K owns every gym.

Thought that was funny

TNDukeFan
02-18-2010, 06:40 PM
love Tony and Wilbon, can't believe I missed Coach K

SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Really though, watching PTI every day must be like serving a sentence.

A sentence of awesomeness. I watch that show everyday when I get home. I tend to agree with Kornheiser most of the time and think Wilbon is a pretty average analyst, but I do enjoy the rapport between the two.

I guess what really draws me to it is the format -- they cover quite a few topics in a short span, have some fun with it, and spend decent amounts of time on the ~5 or so hottest topics of the day. Also, I'm on the west coast and they don't delay it (so its on at 2:30pm) so I'm always watching on DVR and can easily skip whichever segments I don't like.

yancem
02-18-2010, 06:46 PM
Honestly, I thought it was a little weak for K to ask for the conch to be removed. I didn't hear it through the TV and maybe it was obnoxiously loud but it seemed a little silly when I was watching the game.

As for the rules, I would imagine that the rule is something to the effect that you're not allowed to use any implement to artificially make loud sounds and would guess that a conch shell fits that description. So from that perspective K had grounds to make his request but still I would rather the Duke block it out and make their free throws anyway.

loldevilz
02-18-2010, 06:59 PM
Why is this such a big deal? It's just a conch. The kid stayed (unlike in the UNC game). No one's feelings got hurt. Obviously K just thought it was inappropriate and shouldn't be there.

sagegrouse
02-18-2010, 07:10 PM
Honestly, I thought it was a little weak for K to ask for the conch to be removed. I didn't hear it through the TV and maybe it was obnoxiously loud but it seemed a little silly when I was watching the game.

.

You ain't from Florida, are you? If he had really asked for all the "Conchs" to be removed, they would have had to clear out the joint, except for the Miami students from NY and NJ, some Snowbirds, and a few Duke fans.

sagegrouse

allenmurray
02-18-2010, 07:18 PM
Wilbon seems to feel the need to pander to their perceived demographic by making the occasional misogynistic comment or letting us all know just how "manly" he is.

The other day Tony was talking about the athleticism of the male figure skaters. Wilbon went on and on about how he would never watch any man in any athletic event who wore sequins or feathers. The underlying tone was incredibly homophobic.

oldnavy
02-18-2010, 08:12 PM
The other day Tony was talking about the athleticism of the male figure skaters. Wilbon went on and on about how he would never watch any man in any athletic event who wore sequins or feathers. The underlying tone was incredibly homophobic.

I wouldn't watch figure skating either and for non-sexual reasons. I think it is boring. Now put some pads on them and give them a stick and you might have something...

RelativeWays
02-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Word of advice: don't take anything Wilbon an Kornheiser say on PTI seriously, its strictly entertainment. Wilbon's macho attitude is more of a self effacing joke that he's actually a frumpy news reporter and desk jockey. If he thinks male figure skating is too fruity for his taste, thats fine, so do I. It has nothing to do with my opinion or relationship with gay people.

Jim3k
02-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Here's a link to the FAQ which describes the rule (http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache%3AlWYwkWhOI2wJ%3Awww.ncaa.org%2Fwps %2Fwcm%2Fconnect%2F2af28d804e0b978e900bf01ad6fc8b2 5%2FFAQ.pdf%3FMOD%3DAJPERES%26CACHEID%3D2af28d804e 0b978e900bf01ad6fc8b25+NCAA+spectator+rule%3A+horn s&hl=en&gl=us). Scroll to the second page:

Hope this works. It's an html cache of a PDF file.

jipops
02-18-2010, 08:40 PM
Given the fact that there have been two games this week where items were thrown on the floor, I'd be a little concerned about a conch shell out there. But if he was having it confiscated because of the noise, yeah that's pretty weak. Not Royd weak, but a little weak nonetheless.

BD80
02-18-2010, 09:51 PM
The conch shell sounded like the horn the scorer sounds to signal substitution. It was similar to confiscating a whistle. They are devices which can disrupt games.

Welcome2DaSlopes
02-18-2010, 09:57 PM
PTI is the best show on ESPN. PERIOD.

WiJoe
02-18-2010, 09:58 PM
PTI is the best show on ESPN. PERIOD.


PTI is the WORST show on ESPN. PERIOD.

DevilHorns
02-18-2010, 10:04 PM
PTI is the WORST show on ESPN. PERIOD.

FALSE. The worst show by far is Jim Rome is Burning.

blazindw
02-18-2010, 10:06 PM
If it makes people feel better, when Coach K had his comment about the Nets job ("The guy's Russian, right? You think he's going to hire a Polish guy? Really? Really?), they loved it and were very supportive of Coach K not going to the Nets. They're not going to like everything Coach K does, but they're very supportive of him generally (especially being two DC guys) and are very warm with him when K's been on the show.

sagegrouse
02-18-2010, 10:07 PM
The other day Tony was talking about the athleticism of the male figure skaters. Wilbon went on and on about how he would never watch any man in any athletic event who wore sequins or feathers. The underlying tone was incredibly homophobic.

What do costumes have to do with supposed athletic events, which is the basis for the Olympics? It is a really dreadful evoluton. I think Dick Button 62 years ago wore a suit and tie.

I happen to agree with Wilbon.

sagegrouse

AZLA
02-18-2010, 10:16 PM
Sadly, once the conch was taken from the affable overweight boy, it was shattered into pieces. It was reported that an immediate power struggle ensued in the stands triggering an avalanche of boulders which caused the boy to fall forty feet to his death. One can only wonder -- what the heck are boulders doing in the bleachers? Ralph, a close friend of the boy, was quoted as saying, "This is our island. Its a good island. Until the grown-ups come to fetch us well have fun."

RIP, Piggy, RIP... *sniff

weezie
02-18-2010, 10:43 PM
No, no,....worst show is "Around the Horn."

Duvall
02-18-2010, 10:47 PM
PTI is the WORST show on ESPN. PERIOD.

Good lord, man. ESPN has a show that features Skip Bayless.

moonpie23
02-18-2010, 10:59 PM
ESPN has that idiot HACK STEPHEN A......nothing.......NOTHING is as bad as STEPHEN A...

sagegrouse
02-18-2010, 11:11 PM
ESPN has a studio show with Digger Phelps at the mike.

Dick Vitale is it's lead announcer-commentator.

Doug Gottlieb gets to voice his opinion on the air -- and he gets paid for it!

And, is Jim Rome still alive? The only halfway decent thing he ever did was to get beaten up by QB Jim Everett on the air. He makes Geraldo Rivera look good.

I mean, PTI, which is on at 330PM in my time zone, isn't even a ripple on the lake.

sagegrouse

Exiled_Devil
02-18-2010, 11:17 PM
Here's a link to the FAQ which describes the rule (http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache%3AlWYwkWhOI2wJ%3Awww.ncaa.org%2Fwps %2Fwcm%2Fconnect%2F2af28d804e0b978e900bf01ad6fc8b2 5%2FFAQ.pdf%3FMOD%3DAJPERES%26CACHEID%3D2af28d804e 0b978e900bf01ad6fc8b25+NCAA+spectator+rule%3A+horn s&hl=en&gl=us). Scroll to the second page:

Hope this works. It's an html cache of a PDF file.

FYI, for those wondering, here is the relevant rule:

Basketball: "The playing of musical instruments and/or amplified music and the use of
artificial noisemakers while the game is in progress shall be prohibited.

Conch shell is a musical instrument, much the way those annoying fair horns are.

theAlaskanBear
02-18-2010, 11:18 PM
I watch PTI on a fairly regular basis. Its the best sport show on TV, and I HATE espn. Kornheiser and Wilbon have great chemistry and rapport, and they actually have some intelligent things to say. Its not just NOISE like Around the Horn (sports porn).

But to the issue of the conch shell, I don't know how closely you guys watched the game, but it was CLEARLY audible on TV. It sounded like an airhorn or a buzzer, and the student blew it like 3 or 4 times in succession.

On a side note, in colonial Haiti, slaves blew conch shells as a signal of insurrection, a call to arms and assembly.

ricks68
02-19-2010, 02:07 AM
You ain't from Florida, are you? If he had really asked for all the "Conchs" to be removed, they would have had to clear out the joint, except for the Miami students from NY and NJ, some Snowbirds, and a few Duke fans.

sagegrouse

I was unaware that Sun-Tan-U was inhabited by so many born in the Keys---unless you are counting Cuba as an extension.

ricks

dukebluelemur
02-19-2010, 02:08 AM
On a side note, in colonial Haiti, slaves blew conch shells as a signal of insurrection, a call to arms and assembly.

...imma let you finish, but ol' Roy has more passion in his little finger than Anyone in colonial Haiti...

allenmurray
02-19-2010, 06:56 AM
Sorry to have to be the misogynistic and homophobic guy to speak up (very much tongue in cheek), but I agree that I do not enjoy men's figuure skating. The sequins and feathers are pretty goofy. When you watch Fox News do you expect to hear about the "great job" that Obama (even more tongue in cheek) is doing. Please I think your comment is blowing something way out of proportion.


What do costumes have to do with supposed athletic events, which is the basis for the Olympics? sagegrouse

And the women's costumes are highly athletic? No, they are highly sexualized. If both competed in highly functional athletic outifits that would be fine. But the male skaters get criticized (and have thier "manliness" called into question for what they are wearing, but we love to watch young girls in their short skirts. Hmmmm. http://www.slate.com/id/2245021/

Wilbon made no complaints about the highly sexualized costumes worn by the women, which also add nothing to athleticism. I think both gender's costumes are goofy for sporting purposes. It was Wilbon's tone, his body language, his non-verbals, his statements that they weren't manly. My impression was not that he cared about the costumes, but that what he was saying was that he was not going to watch the men because they were not in a real sport and were not macho enough. Tony tried to talk about the athleticism involved and Wilbon simply smirked. Of course no one criticizes women's figure skating as not being athletic enough for the olympics.

But no, there is no homophobia among sportscasters, none at all.

airowe
02-19-2010, 07:22 AM
...imma let you finish, but ol' Roy has more passion in his little finger than Anyone in colonial Haiti...

Steve "Kanye" Kirschner in the house everybody!

wilson
02-19-2010, 07:48 AM
Does anybody really not think it distracts from Johnny Weir's considerable athletic talent when he shows up looking like he cannibalized someone's lingerie drawer?

allenmurray
02-19-2010, 08:53 AM
Does anybody really not think it distracts from Johnny Weir's considerable athletic talent when he shows up looking like he cannibalized someone's lingerie drawer?

I agree that it does. I agree that the uniforms (both male and female) are ridiculous. That was not what Wilbon was doing. He was saying he refused to watch the men because of the uniforms, and he was dismissive of men's skating as an athletic event based on the costumes.

The women's costumes are no less functional than the men's, and just as overly stylized. But they fit an image some find acceptable. The men's uniforms fit a stereotype that Wilbon clearly found discomforting, so he made fun of the sport.

Figure skating and/or ice dancing either are sports or they are not sports, but the gender of the participants is not what makes the difference. And if the costume is what makes the difference they why are people comfortable with completely non-functional, highly decorative costumes for women but not for men?

Teenage female figure skaters wearing non-functional, but sexualized costumes didn't bother Wilbon enough for him to be dismissive of the sport. But male skaters wearing sequins and feathers did. I don't think it is sequins and feathers that Wilbon has a problem with. That was my point - I agree that the costumes are ridiculous. But they are not designed to add to the athleticism (for either the men or women) - they are desinged to be part of the spectacle (for both the men and women). But somehow that is only an issue for one gender.

wilson
02-19-2010, 08:57 AM
I don't think it is sequins and feathers that Wilbon has a problem with.I disagree with this assessment. I've watched a good bit of PTI, and I do not think Wilbon is in any way a homophobe or a misognynist. In fact, I think he would bristle rather strongly at this (mis)characterization. I believe the point he wanted to make was that figure skaters cheapen their sport by looking (to borrow a common Wilbon phrase) "like dopes."

weezie
02-19-2010, 09:00 AM
OT, but did anybody see Shaun White playing air guitar for a few secs during the anthem?!

I hope he doesn't get fried by the press; I laughed a bit, since he seems like a pretty nice "kid," but you never know with the anthem. He sure seemed happy and proud.

allenmurray
02-19-2010, 09:11 AM
I disagree with this assessment. I've watched a good bit of PTI, and I do not think Wilbon is in any way a homophobe or a misognynist. In fact, I think he would bristle rather strongly at this (mis)characterization. I believe the point he wanted to make was that figure skaters cheapen their sport by looking (to borrow a common Wilbon phrase) "like dopes."

I've always liked Wilbon. Until the segment the other day I would have agreed with you. Did you see it? He came across horribly.

And I still don't understand why folks find the highly sexualized outfits worn by teenage girls to be okay, but "silly" outfits worn by men to be worthy of ridicule. I find the outfits worn by some of the women to be a bit creepy. Read the Slate article for a look at the decision making process the women go through on just how "sexy" to be in order to impress the judges and win. Eroticized dancing (Kwan as Salome) in sexualized outifts is fine, but men appearing feminine, (and therefore, oh my gosh, maybe gay) gets you ridiculed on television by Wilbon.

Duke4life92
02-19-2010, 11:16 AM
As for the rules, I would imagine that the rule is something to the effect that you're not allowed to use any implement to artificially make loud sounds and would guess that a conch shell fits that description. So from that perspective K had grounds to make his request but still I would rather the Duke block it out and make their free throws anyway.


Yes i could hear it aswell and it sounded alot like the horn at the scorers table and mike patrick even said that "horn type devices" were'nt allowed in the gym and was wondering how it even got by security on the kids way in.Really?like the miami security was going to care about that?:( It was amazingly loud under the free throw situation when i heard it.

uh_no
02-19-2010, 11:22 AM
OT, but did anybody see Shaun White playing air guitar for a few secs during the anthem?!

I hope he doesn't get fried by the press; I laughed a bit, since he seems like a pretty nice "kid," but you never know with the anthem. He sure seemed happy and proud.

After his tearful reception last time around, I don't think anyone should be questioning his respect for the flag and country or his patriotism

Saratoga2
02-19-2010, 11:28 AM
Yes i could hear it aswell and it sounded alot like the horn at the scorers table and mike patrick even said that "horn type devices" were'nt allowed in the gym and was wondering how it even got by security on the kids way in.Really?like the miami security was going to care about that?:( It was amazingly loud under the free throw situation when i heard it.

Imagine what would happen if someone decided to heave the conch shell onto the court.

DukieInKansas
02-19-2010, 11:43 AM
The conch shell sounded like the horn the scorer sounds to signal substitution. It was similar to confiscating a whistle. They are devices which can disrupt games.

That is what I thought - it sounded like the horn and should have been removed. I do hope the individual that brought it in got it back as he/she left.

SilkyJ
02-19-2010, 03:54 PM
If it makes people feel better, when Coach K had his comment about the Nets job ("The guy's Russian, right? You think he's going to hire a Polish guy? Really? Really?), they loved it and were very supportive of Coach K not going to the Nets. They're not going to like everything Coach K does, but they're very supportive of him generally (especially being two DC guys) and are very warm with him when K's been on the show.

And Coach K is usually on once or twice a year for the "5 good minutes" section, which is exactly what it sounds like: 5 minutes of Q&A with a featured guest. And Dr. Wine is absolutely right, they are always very warm and welcoming of K.


That is what I thought - it sounded like the horn and should have been removed. I do hope the individual that brought it in got it back as he/she left.

I am a decent lip reader and that is exactly what coach K said to the officials, and the repeated again to Frank Haith as he walked towards mid-court: "it sounds like the horn"

mo.st.dukie
02-19-2010, 04:19 PM
^Yeah, I'm very surprised more people aren't understanding that. When wathcing it, it was pretty obvious to me that was the reason Coach K pointed it out to the ref. Even the on-court mics picked up Coach K saying "it sounds like...." This is just another example of the 24 hour sports news cycle and these shows on ESPN needing something "controversial" to talk about to fill up a minute or two.

oldnavy
02-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Kornheiser and Wilbon do a good job IMHO. I like Kornheiser a lot. He is funny to look at and funny to listen to. I dont take his Duke digs very seriously, he cuts on everyone sooner or later, and that is his style. BTW, there are lots of worse shows on ESPN, most of which have already been named.
I listened to him on the radio in the DC area when I was stationed up there back in 1996-1999. He would often have John Feinstein on the show and they had a very good rapport together. The show made the 1 hour (15 mile) afternoon commute from Bethesda to Gaithersburg tolerable.

allenmurray
02-19-2010, 05:36 PM
Kornheiser and Wilbon do a good job IMHO. I like Kornheiser a lot. He is funny to look at and funny to listen to. I dont take his Duke digs very seriously, he cuts on everyone sooner or later, and that is his style. BTW, there are lots of worse shows on ESPN, most of which have already been named.
I listened to him on the radio in the DC area when I was stationed up there back in 1996-1999. He would often have John Feinstein on the show and they had a very good rapport together. The show made the 1 hour (15 mile) afternoon commute from Bethesda to Gaithersburg tolerable.

Kornheiser was a great features writer and general interest columnist long before he became a sports guy. He has a number of his columns collected into books http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kornheiser His columns that ran for awhile in the Washington Post about the illness and death of his father were incredibly poingnant, as was his book about he and his wife's struggles with infertility. Unlike Wilbon (who I do enjoy) he is far more than a one trick pony.

sagegrouse
02-19-2010, 06:44 PM
Kornheiser and Wilbon do a good job IMHO. I like Kornheiser a lot. He is funny to look at and funny to listen to.

I listened to him on the radio in the DC area when I was stationed up there back in 1996-1999. He would often have John Feinstein on the show and they had a very good rapport together. The show made the 1 hour (15 mile) afternoon commute from Bethesda to Gaithersburg tolerable.

TK's original radio show was laugh-out-loud funny, and he'd go off on all these tangents about his Woody-Allen like neuroses. (His fear of flying, however, was never a joke -- it led him to jump ship at Monday Night Football).

Then he got a radio show on ESPN, and it didn't work as well. The station managers were looking for him to have star athletes on the program, which he refused to do. "Mo-rons," he said. "All they can say is, 'I gotta step it up to the next level.' What the heck does that mean?" His guests were mostly journalists and media folk who were used to speaking on the radio and TV.

PTI was a revolutionary program, in that it zipped from topic to topic so fast that you needed the scroll bar on the side of the screen. I like it, but not everyone does. Probably a generational thing. Tony and Michael, however, do have access to some of the most knowledgeable people in sports, including Coach K.

Mr. Tony now has a program from 10-12AM on ESPN 980 in the Washington area. It is far better than the adjacent programs like Mike and Mike, but not as good as the original show. I think PTI is a a big workload, and he uses three other folks as foils and to help carry the show.

sagegrouse

greybeard
02-19-2010, 07:57 PM
Kornheiser was a great features writer and general interest columnist long before he became a sports guy. He has a number of his columns collected into books http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kornheiser His columns that ran for awhile in the Washington Post about the illness and death of his father were incredibly poingnant, as was his book about he and his wife's struggles with infertility. Unlike Wilbon (who I do enjoy) he is far more than a one trick pony.

Tony started as a sportswriter in high school, both for the school newspaper and a county rag called The SouthShore Record. He then functioned as a sportswriter for LI's Newsday, then the NY Times, and then late in his newspaper life for what he now calls the Wall Street Post, where he also started his weekend Style columns collected in his books. Tony really knows sports, and often has understandings/perspectives that astound. Now the schtick often eclipses getting anywhere deep into the event he is discussing. However, in the course of his rants, you will hear a few words that nail it on the sweet spot; he just doesn't hang with it. Also, in case you haven't noticed, he has a photographic memory and understands and can use what he takes in. Scary smart dude.

blueprofessor
02-19-2010, 08:18 PM
Tony started as a sportswriter in high school, both for the school newspaper and a county rag called The SouthShore Record. He then functioned as a sportswriter for LI's Newsday, then the NY Times, and then late in his newspaper life for what he now calls the Wall Street Post, where he also started his weekend Style columns collected in his books. Tony really knows sports, and often has understandings/perspectives that astound. Now the schtick often eclipses getting anywhere deep into the event he is discussing. However, in the course of his rants, you will hear a few words that nail it on the sweet spot; he just doesn't hang with it. Also, in case you haven't noticed, he has a photographic memory and understands and can use what he takes in. Scary smart dude.

As a good deal of the disputation regarding eidetic memory comes from an overgenerous application of the term to many occurrences of outstanding memory skills, please provide a citation or link to your assertion that Tony has photographic memory.

...

Best regards to Duke fans
Blueprofessor:)

greybeard
02-19-2010, 10:19 PM
As a good deal of the disputation regarding eidetic memory comes from an overgenerous application of the term to many occurrences of outstanding memory skills, please provide a citation or link to your assertion that Tony has photographic memory.

...

Best regards to Duke fans
Blueprofessor:)

I've known him since high school and reconnected after he moved to DC. We played golf together weekends for a year and a half twice a weekend, and used to e-mail frequently. Scared me with his recall of facts, information, words of songs, movies, books, etc. At some point one understands that there is something different going on with this person. Met only a few people like him in my life. I've lived with two such people, one all his life and the other who gave him life. I consider myself an expert.

BD80
02-19-2010, 10:26 PM
As a good deal of the disputation regarding eidetic memory comes from an overgenerous application of the term to many occurrences of outstanding memory skills, please provide a citation or link to your assertion that Tony has photographic memory.

...

Best regards to Duke fans
Blueprofessor:)

It is the only thing about him that is photogenic ... :D

loldevilz
02-19-2010, 11:03 PM
I really like Tony Kornheiser, and I fully believe that he has an outstanding memory. Mike Wilbon, on the other hand, is not at all on Tony's level. His comment about Coach K was thoughtless, and saying that they should hand out conchs at the game was stupid.

greybeard
02-20-2010, 12:04 AM
I really like Tony Kornheiser, and I fully believe that he has an outstanding memory. Mike Wilbon, on the other hand, is not at all on Tony's level. His comment about Coach K was thoughtless, and saying that they should hand out conchs at the game was stupid.

Missed it.

Tony reads or hears it, he owns it. Extraordinary. Serves him tremendously in his professions, even as a yodeler.

Never met Wilbon. Think he writes wonderfully, and is tremendously quick and entertaining on PTI. Big time talent, who seems to bring out the best in people. Certainly the case with T. Everybidy screws the pooch sometimes.

weezie
02-20-2010, 07:35 AM
After his tearful reception last time around, I don't think anyone should be questioning his respect for the flag and country or his patriotism

Nobody is questioning his patriotism. I like him and absolutely marvel at his abilities.
Sheesh........

Turtleboy
02-20-2010, 10:41 AM
You ain't from Florida, are you? If he had really asked for all the "Conchs" to be removed, they would have had to clear out the joint, except for the Miami students from NY and NJ, some Snowbirds, and a few Duke fans.

sagegrouseBack when I was living in Key West the only real Conchs were people who were born there. (In Key West.)

sagegrouse
02-20-2010, 10:56 AM
Back when I was living in Key West the only real Conchs were people who were born there. (In Key West.)

Youa re absolutely correct. The term "Conch" is sorta like the term "Yankee." The further away you are, the more imprecise the use of the term.

sagegrouse

Cameron
02-20-2010, 11:58 AM
It was not weak. As BD80 stated, the conch was incredibly loud and resembled the same deep tone a scorer's table horn makes. Yes, when players are shooting free throws or even during mid-game, this kind of inadvertent sound could disrupt a contest.

Also as stated above, artificial noise such as "conches," whistles, air horns or thunder sticks are not allowed in college basketball arenas.

Coach K did nothing weak here. He was following protocol.

DukePA
02-20-2010, 04:52 PM
I wonder why the officials or for that matter, Coach Haith, didn't take care of this to begin with? Why did they allow it to go on until Coach K said something?

SilkyJ
02-24-2010, 02:18 PM
Bump.

Kornheiser suspended from PTI for 2 weeks for remarks made on his radio show regarding a female Sportscenter anchor's wardrobe. Anybody know what exactly was said?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=4939740

91_92_01_10_15
02-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Bump.

Kornheiser suspended from PTI for 2 weeks for remarks made on his radio show regarding a female Sportscenter anchor's wardrobe. Anybody know what exactly was said?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=4939740


Hannah Storm in a horrifying, horrifying outfit today. She's got on red go-go boots and a catholic school plaid skirt way too short for somebody in her 40s or maybe early 50s by now. [She's 47.] She's got on her typically very, very tight shirt. She looks like she has sausage casing wrapping around her upper body I know she's very good, and I'm not supposed to be critical of ESPN people, so I won't but Hannah Storm come on now! Stop! What are you doing? She's what I would call a Holden Caulfield fantasy at this point.

Read more: http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/02/24/pardon-the-suspension-should-espn-have-benched-kornheiser/#ixzz0gUFEowjf





http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/02/24/pardon-the-suspension-should-espn-have-benched-kornheiser/

Acymetric
02-24-2010, 02:43 PM
Weak suspension, that outfit IS ridiculous. Do they have wardrobe people at ESPN?

Maybe an apology to Storm was in order, but nothing more.

theAlaskanBear
02-24-2010, 03:02 PM
All I know is that Dan LeBatard (Kornheiser's replacement) is an insult to the human race. My ears bleed every time he opens his mouth, and his knowledge of sports is as shallow as his Miami tan.

Pacer
02-24-2010, 03:15 PM
He commented on Hannah Storm's tall red boots.

http://deadspin.com/tag/tonykornheisersuspension/

oldnavy
02-24-2010, 03:26 PM
All I know is that Dan LeBatard (Kornheiser's replacement) is an insult to the human race. My ears bleed every time he opens his mouth, and his knowledge of sports is as shallow as his Miami tan.

Agree. The discussion with Jay Bilas on Tyler Hansbrough and how his race was a factor in his draft stock was a classic. Jay absolutely hammered LeBatard! Anyone got the audio to that conversation?

stickdog
02-24-2010, 03:47 PM
http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images_root/slides/photos/000/162/884/HannahStormSportsCenteroutfit_display_image.jpg?12 66954184

cato
02-24-2010, 04:05 PM
Weak suspension, that outfit IS ridiculous. Do they have wardrobe people at ESPN?

Maybe an apology to Storm was in order, but nothing more.

He openly speculated on a woman's age, even going so far as to say she might be in her 50's. Dude would be lucky to get off with only a two week suspension. If Hannah was in the same room with him at the time, he might have been serving that suspension in the ICU.

In all seriousness, trying going on the record ridiculing one of your coworkers (who happens to be an on-the-air presenter), and see what your boss says.

superdave
02-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Wait, does ESPN not go out of its way to court controversy? Do they not have Outside the Lines wwhere Bob Ley ooooozes over this stuff? Espn is probably happy to be able to spend time promoting itself through an internal controversy.

moonpie23
02-24-2010, 04:28 PM
wait.....mister COMB-OVER himself said something about someone ELSE LOOKING "HORRIBLE" ??>?


PUHHHHHHLEEEEZE...



Beep: Mister Kettle, Mister Pot on line one for you....

cspan37421
02-24-2010, 04:57 PM
ESPN pays Tony K to rip on people and situations. And now they're surprised? Even if their rule is "rip only on those outside the network" he's supposed to remember whose working for which ABC/Disney/ESPN network? Come on. And it WAS a ridiculous outfit.

BTW, Tony himself said that he's a fine one (wink) to be criticising looks - being bald, orange, and recently lost a tooth - an emailer on 980 said he's turning into a jack-o-lantern.

The only thing that I think they can get him for that isn't totally hypocritical is the Holden Caufield reference. And even then, hey, I see that outfit, I can see how it crossed his mind!

weezie
02-24-2010, 05:01 PM
BTW, Tony himself said that he's a fine one (wink) to be criticising looks - being bald, orange, and recently lost a tooth - an emailer on 980 said he's turning into a jack-o-lantern.


Kind of sick-making to ponder it but how did he lose a tooth? Ugh.

cspan37421
02-24-2010, 05:07 PM
broke a 20 year old crown. Common for the old, bald, orange set.

weezie
02-24-2010, 05:15 PM
broke a 20 year old crown. Common for the old, bald, orange set.

:D Glad I'm not orange or bald. Flossing counts!!!

greybeard
02-24-2010, 06:29 PM
I've got a horse in this race, but don't all the guys who work for ESPN wear business attire. Hannah was dressed like, well, I think that T said it gently. Why the double standard by ESPN? Guys running passing routes in ties, the next scene they have their jackets back on. Ridiculously tall red patent leather boots, a little girl's mini skirt in what appears a shoddy play on a classic parochial school look, come on, Hannah, what are we trying to say here? More importantly, what exactly is ESPN defending?

And where do they get off policing an air wave that does not belong to them? Whatever, T is handling it, and ESPN has the day time reporter it deserves.

I would love to see what would happen if one of the male talking heads showed up all South Beach on the set. It would never happen.

Hey, they got the gold, tell teams when to play and against whom, how people can dress and how they can't. Well, I ain't mad at that; just wish that someone other than my boy had the stones to tell Hannah that she really ain't representing the product. OR, MAYBE SHE IS. MAYBE WHAT SHE WAS PORTRAYING IS WHAT THEY THINK WE GUYS REALLY WANT TO SEE. If, so, maybe the suits were not upset with T for dissing Hannah. Maybe they took it personal and thought that he was telling THEM that that is not how all of us roll. It isn't, is it?

theAlaskanBear
02-24-2010, 09:26 PM
I've got a horse in this race, but don't all the guys who work for ESPN wear business attire. Hannah was dressed like, well, I think that T said it gently. Why the double standard by ESPN? Guys running passing routes in ties, the next scene they have their jackets back on. Ridiculously tall red patent leather boots, a little girl's mini skirt in what appears a shoddy play on a classic parochial school look, come on, Hannah, what are we trying to say here? More importantly, what exactly is ESPN defending?

And where do they get off policing an air wave that does not belong to them? Whatever, T is handling it, and ESPN has the day time reporter it deserves.

I would love to see what would happen if one of the male talking heads showed up all South Beach on the set. It would never happen.

Hey, they got the gold, tell teams when to play and against whom, how people can dress and how they can't. Well, I ain't mad at that; just wish that someone other than my boy had the stones to tell Hannah that she really ain't representing the product. OR, MAYBE SHE IS. MAYBE WHAT SHE WAS PORTRAYING IS WHAT THEY THINK WE GUYS REALLY WANT TO SEE. If, so, maybe the suits were not upset with T for dissing Hannah. Maybe they took it personal and thought that he was telling THEM that that is not how all of us roll. It isn't, is it?

I really enjoy Linda Cohn as a sportscaster, but within the last 6 months or so, she showed up back on air looking like a doll. Garish red lipstick, waaaay too much face makeup, a tight shirt, etc etc.

Given all the sexual harrassment problems ESPN has had, it makes me think its the business culture, and that the female sports anchors dress this way because they are expected to. I'll take a stylishly professional looking woman (note: NOT talking about Hillary Clinton style here) over dolled up anchors anyday.

1999ballboy
02-24-2010, 10:48 PM
I usually enjoy watching Kornheiser, but his remarks were way out of line and the suspension is 100% deserved. I'm rather shocked that anybody thinks differently to be frank. There's no need to politicize this incident when sexism wasn't even the issue. Tony broke the rules. ESPN did not suspend him because Hannah Storm's a woman, they suspended him for breaking the rules. He acknowledged it on the air. You're very obviously not supposed to say that kind of thing about co-workers, and bringing their age into it doesn't help. It's not like anybody would react with anything but laughter if he criticized Madonna for wearing the same outfit, so the gender-double-standard card falls flat here. What's the big deal anyway? Two weeks.

And so what if there is a gender double standard? The theory about business attire, sexism, etc. is not entirely incorrect but it's a pretty big oversimplification and in no way is it limited to ESPN. As part of our culture, women's fashion is less conservative and more individualistic than men's, even in business circles. Blame the media, etc., but at the end of the day women and men are both typically wearing what they want to. Men don't want to make a statement and have the image of the American masculine professional in mind. Women see other women in the media dressed more outlandishly, and they don't necessarily see the sexual aspects of it like men do- it's more of a form of self-expression, and they likely feel pressure from the members of their own sex to participate. So let's not make ESPN the bad guys (yeah, that's a phrase I never thought I'd say) for suspending the guy who made a really uncalled-for statement.

cato
02-24-2010, 10:55 PM
he's supposed to remember whose working for which ABC/Disney/ESPN network?

yes.

RockLobster
02-25-2010, 02:36 AM
I just wanted to say I'm not a huge fan of Wilbon making outrageously stupid remarks and they acting as if they're obvious truths.

Can't stand either of them. They should take Wilbon, Kornheiser, Paige, Bayless, and Smith off of ESPN and give them a show where they all hit each other with blunt objects.

77devil
02-25-2010, 06:45 AM
Women see other women in the media dressed more outlandishly, and they don't necessarily see the sexual aspects of it like men do.

Of course they do.

moonpie23
02-25-2010, 07:56 AM
so she says to the stylist "hey dress me in that outfit that no one will think i'm hot in "???

TNDukeFan
02-25-2010, 09:16 AM
...but I like TK and MW. I don't know what I think about the comments (which is one of the things I like about Wilbon - he'll sometimes say 'I don't know what I think'), but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 09:33 AM
I usually enjoy watching Kornheiser, but his remarks were way out of line and the suspension is 100% deserved. I'm rather shocked that anybody thinks differently to be frank. There's no need to politicize this incident when sexism wasn't even the issue. Tony broke the rules. ESPN did not suspend him because Hannah Storm's a woman, they suspended him for breaking the rules. He acknowledged it on the air. You're very obviously not supposed to say that kind of thing about co-workers, and bringing their age into it doesn't help. It's not like anybody would react with anything but laughter if he criticized Madonna for wearing the same outfit, so the gender-double-standard card falls flat here. What's the big deal anyway? Two weeks.

And so what if there is a gender double standard? The theory about business attire, sexism, etc. is not entirely incorrect but it's a pretty big oversimplification and in no way is it limited to ESPN. As part of our culture, women's fashion is less conservative and more individualistic than men's, even in business circles. Blame the media, etc., but at the end of the day women and men are both typically wearing what they want to. Men don't want to make a statement and have the image of the American masculine professional in mind. Women see other women in the media dressed more outlandishly, and they don't necessarily see the sexual aspects of it like men do- it's more of a form of self-expression, and they likely feel pressure from the members of their own sex to participate. So let's not make ESPN the bad guys (yeah, that's a phrase I never thought I'd say) for suspending the guy who made a really uncalled-for statement.

Why is the double standard a non issue. The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case? Has anyone, anywhere said that Hannah was dressed appropriately?

No guy on ESPN would even think of doing anything but tie and jacket except Wilbon who gets away with $500 sweaters and $3000 sports jackets.

ESPN obviously has a strict, and I mean very strict, dressing code for men. T has said repeatedly on the air that he believes that when men come to business they should dress like it. ESPN obviously believes the same. Hannah fell far below the standard in the poorest of taste. That she is a grown woman makes her dress indefensible; Tony said so, but not his bosses. How come?

Clearly, ESPN sells sex; everybody on TV does. The next time the bosses at ESPN have a women on who is not a complete babe (except for those few who have earned their bones as credible sports commentators over a considerable period of time) will be the first. I'm fine with that, well, not really (I prefer my sports and appeals to my purient interests on different plates, thank you), but I don't count.

Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one. Tony said so on a local radio show. BFD. The bosses were wrong and called out the wrong employee, imo.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 09:50 AM
Slate magazine's editor summarizes how Kornheiser regularly uses his bully pulpit to slam and insult his own colleagues.

http://www.slate.com/id/2245796/

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 09:54 AM
...but I like TK and MW. I don't know what I think about the comments (which is one of the things I like about Wilbon - he'll sometimes say 'I don't know what I think'), but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.

Wilbon does say that a lot - which always struck me as odd. On the one hand it is kind of a "regular guy" approach, sharing his own uncertainty. On the other hand, he knows well ahead of time what the topics of the day will be, and has extraordinary access to sources of information. Thus it seem like an affectation to me.

Kfanarmy
02-25-2010, 10:09 AM
is that she was allowed to go on air dressed like that...a producer should have said...uh wait a minute, let's get you dressed appropriately.

cato
02-25-2010, 10:26 AM
The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it.

Oh, I get it, she was dressed like a prostitute, because she was wearing an outfit that (color aside) many women wear all the time! Stay classy, greybeard.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 10:35 AM
I though Storm's outfit was really unattractive http://www.examiner.com/x-14380-Celebrity-Fitness-and-Health-Examiner~y2010m2d23-ESPN-suspends-Tony-Kornheiser-for-calling-Hannah-Storms-outfit-slutty But that is a matter of personal taste. It was hardly trolloplike. Her blouse was not all that tight or low cut, her skirt hardly a mini-skirt. Kornheiser was wrong.

flyingdutchdevil
02-25-2010, 10:37 AM
Oh, I get it, she was dressed like a prostitute, because she was wearing an outfit that (color aside) many women wear all the time! Stay classy, greybeard.

Agreed. If that was prostitute-like, then the whole of London must be one, big hooker gathering.

1999ballboy
02-25-2010, 10:39 AM
Why is the double standard a non issue. The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case? Has anyone, anywhere said that Hannah was dressed appropriately?This is WAY too extreme. Change the channel to MTV if you want to see people dressed like "cheap trollops." Her outfit, from a point of view probably shared by the majority, yet still entirely subjective, was ugly and unflattering. And that's it. It wasn't hurting anybody except her own reputation and, by a bit of a long shot, ESPN's. And to resolve that issue, ESPN can, should, and probably did just tell her to please not dress like that again. It was a one-time incident and I'm sure she'll dress more tastefully next time. It's not as though it did irreparable damage to viewers, even the more conservative ones.


Clearly, ESPN sells sex; everybody on TV does.Yeah. They do. But Hannah picked her own outfit, and the consensus is that it was a poor choice. At least she was doing her job, which is more than you can say for Tony. It's not ESPN's duty to try to be heroes and reverse the sexual politics of our generation, when, as you acknowledge, "everybody" sells sex. The issue with Hannah can and should be resolved in private, while the issue with Tony was that by calling her out in public, he was overstepping the bounds of his job. This suspension seems to me like a fully professional decision that was made because Tony was not doing his job properly.


Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one.Really now? I'm looking at her, and I see a few inches of bare skin around the knees and a shirt that would be considered loose-fitting if worn by Erin Andrews. It's not selling until somebody buys it. If you don't feel sexually provoked, yet you look at the outfit and say to yourself, "Hmm... that COULD be CONSTRUED as sexually provocative," then it has no effect on you as a viewer, and you're really just being judgmental of someone's taste. On the other hand, people buy what Erin Andrews is selling every day and no one complains. What it all boils down to is these are really criticisms of her age and personal appearance more than anything else, which in turn proves that ESPN's attempts at "selling sex," in general, work, because the incident that finally turns into a big deal is one that is considered a failed attempt at selling sex. It's almost as though people are complaining that this particular attempt at selling sex didn't happen to work. Fundamentally, the outfit was only considered offensive because of the person wearing it.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 10:43 AM
The woman . . . was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it. Wasn't that the case?

Um, no, that wasn't the case. Your statements are way more offensive than even Tony's.

Should I suppose that when you are walking downt he street and see a woman wearing a skirt tha comes to within about 3 inches of her knees, a sweater that is not overly tight nor very low cut, and a pair of boots that you assume she is a prostitute? Is that the jump your mind akes when a woman is dressed in a way that is not conservative? If so that says way more about you than it does about Hanna Storm.

I (and I believe many others) found the outfit to be unattractive - but I (we) didn't make the jump to sexualized or prostitute attire - that was left to you and Tony. I'd like to think that even sports journalists and sports fans (male and female) can avoid making assumptions about a woman's intent, and morals based on our interpretations of how she is dressed.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 10:48 AM
But Hannah picked her own outfit

I agree with all your points, but I wonder if this is really the case. It seems that ESPN is probably big enough to have "wardrobe people" and I wouldn't be surprised if her clothes are not paid for and perhaps even (to some extent) selected by ESPN. I certainly don't know this for a fact, but it wouldn't be out of the question, even if only for practical reasons (otherwise you could end up with two reporters standng side-by-side in outfits that clash horribly).

moonpie23
02-25-2010, 11:42 AM
i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 12:00 PM
i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....

Yea, but you're "the only one on the planet"

SilkyJ
02-25-2010, 12:06 PM
, but I can't help wondering, if I were paid to talk all day, how often I would say something boneheaded.

Great point. If it were me, probably once an hour, but I like to run my mouth. One slip of this magnitude isn't a huge deal. Heck of a lot better than whatshisface and his "nappy" comment.


Why is the double standard a non issue.

....

Hannah on the other hand took this selling sex thing to a whole other level and it wasn't a higher one. Tony said so on a local radio show. BFD. The bosses were wrong and called out the wrong employee, imo.

I think we're missing the point, guys, which is that the outfit didn't matter. Its the calling out a colleague and calling her old, etc. that matters.


i thought the outfit was tight, dawg....

What a needful post. Thank you for your useful contributions to this board.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 12:29 PM
I think we're missing the point, guys, which is that the outfit didn't matter. Its the calling out a colleague and calling her old, etc. that matters.


He didn't call her "old", just old enough to know better. He didn't call her out for anything but her inappropriate dress. If Deon showed up in one of his bling costumes of yore and Tony was watching, he'd have said something about that too and ESPN would have done nothing, we all know that.

That said, T has taken his punishment like a man, which given that he went to the same high school as me you will agree is deserving of high praise. :o

David
02-25-2010, 12:41 PM
Jason Whitlock is not everyone's favorite writer, but I usually appreciate his take. Here is his article on 'the storm brewing in Bristol' (sorry! his pun - not mine). Although unintential on Kornheiser's part, Whitlock suggests his remarks may have done ESPN a favor.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/inside-the-storm-brewing-in-bristol

moonpie23
02-25-2010, 01:13 PM
Jason Whitlock is not everyone's favorite writer, but I usually appreciate his take. Here is his article on 'the storm brewing in Bristol' (sorry! his pun - not mine). Although unintential on Kornheiser's part, Whitlock suggests his remarks may have done ESPN a favor.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/inside-the-storm-brewing-in-bristol

how many lines into his "take" did he bring up race?

ncexnyc
02-25-2010, 01:25 PM
Hannah's outfit would only be appripriate if she was auditioning for the role of the mom in, "Freaky Friday."
While I appreciate her desire to appear feminine, there's also a need for her to look professional (not the kind of professional as alluded to by Greybeard).
She also needs to dress appropriately for her age, something most of us can relate to, when we voice our displeasure with the younger males and their jeans hanging down over their underwear.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 01:31 PM
how many lines into his "take" did he bring up race?

Speculating that Storm was upset because she was the only moderately attractive white woman not propositioned by Tiger Woods (whether he was joking or not) is about as classless as it gets. And in many ways was no different from what Kornheiser did; he used a woman's appearance/clothing as an excuse to make a cheap joke. It is something we should be past.

moonpie23
02-25-2010, 02:02 PM
playing the race card is what jason whitlock EXCELLS in...

race card in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1,


>>A. Shes still outraged about learning shes the lone, moderately attractive white woman in North America not propositioned by Tiger Woods. <<

Classof06
02-25-2010, 02:03 PM
I didn't think what Kornheiser said was the end of the world and I don't think he should've been suspended.....but I totally understand why he was.

As someone who watches ESPN religiously, I thought Storm's outfit, while not earth-stopping, was inappropriate. Being a 25 year-old male, I didn't necessarily mind :D but thought it was poor form for a representative of ESPN. Storm's outfit on the Sports Reporters this past Sunday morning was also a bit racy, proving she either didn't get it or didn't care.

Kornheiser had to have known he was putting himself in harm's way and probably isn't shocked with his short "sabbatical". Bottom line, I think it's safe to guess that when you're a sportscaster or broadcaster, you should never be noticed for your outfit.

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 02:10 PM
Storm's outfit on the Sports Reporters this past Sunday morning was also a bit racy, proving she either didn't get it or didn't care.

Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.


Bottom line, I think it's safe to guess that when you're a sportscaster or broadcaster, you should never be noticed for your outfit.

I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

SilkyJ
02-25-2010, 02:15 PM
Damn, wish I hadn't read that article as I was kind of over this whole thing.

But this sentence caught my attention:


A smart ESPN lawyer recognized that if the network took no action against Kornheiser, the company was vulnerable to charges that Storm and other female employees work in a sexually hostile environment.

Which got me to thinking, do you think this whole thing is really just for ESPN's appearances to protect them legally? Especially given the way TK has taken his medicine, I can see his bosses basically saying "Look, you were out of line and you know it. Do you deserve a 2 week suspension? Probably not, but we need to protect our butts and you've got more money than God, so let's get this thing over with."

Would be curious for our many lawyer posters to chime in here on whether this is a typical CYA (cover your buttocks) move or not...

Also, this phrase caught my attention "He’s a 61-year-old, outspoken rebel who is always going to occasionally clash with management"

"always going to occasionally" yuck

Kfanarmy
02-25-2010, 02:20 PM
playing the race card is what jason whitlock EXCELLS in...

race card in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1,


>>A. Shes still outraged about learning shes the lone, moderately attractive white woman in North America not propositioned by Tiger Woods. <<
It would seem to me that Whitlock's comment was more to show that Hannah was trying to attract versus represent ESPN and using Tiger's recent escapades to make the point. Indeed all of Tiger's paramours were white. Whitlock's comments, while being tasteless humor to some, really don't rise to the level of "playing the race card" in my mind. If Tiger had been dating only black women and Hannah were black, the joke would still have worked. Race isn't really the issue, what "makes" the joke/comparison is what is in common between the women. If they all had been blondes that also would have "worked." I just don't think race was the issue so much as Hannah trying to be as attractive in the same ways as the Tiger harem.

Classof06
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.



I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

Regarding the "didn't get it" I said that was one plausible reason. You're right, if her producers were OK with it then Storm probably didn't care...the other plausible option I presented.

Even if you consider ESPN anchors as journalists/broadcasters/entertainers or whatever, we can all agree they, and their employer, still adhere to some type of corporate code. You don't see the male anchors in anything but a suit or business casual at the least. And none of the other female anchors at ESPN dress anywhere near to what we saw from Storm last week. So, I'm gonna stick with the "don't let your outfit distract" mantra, regardless of what you want to call ESPN personalities.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 02:29 PM
Storm has a boss (or bosses). If the producers of her show, or the executives at ESPN, had a problem with her wardrobe it would change. The idea that "she doesn't get it" seems a bit naive. She is not hte only player in this bit of Kabuki theatre.



I would agree with that completely if you substituted the word journalist for spotscaster/broadcaster. However, ESPN does not have journalists, they have entertainers. Even the ones who began as journalists learned if they wanted to stay with ESPN they would have to be entertainers first.

So why the ties and jackets for all the males? Why the double standard? And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom), when she heard about T's comments and demand blood. Good thing for T he don't have any. Awe, what the heck, T can do two weeks standing on his head, so what am I in a tither about.

I'll tell you what. What happens if T and Wilbon are cowed by this event into becoming like the homogenized wannabes who, in addition to talking sports, all copy T and Wilbon and try to talk movies and do schtick, but do it with no zing, no zip. Please, Tony, for the kids, don't lose the zip. Do it for the kids, Tony, for the kids.

footnote: T used to drip with sarcasm when intoning that phrase, "do it for the kids"; hated when his colleagues would criticize players for not doing the right thing, for not "doing it for the kids." G-d help us, who's gonna protect us from the false sanctimony now? I know, Ms. Storm and the ESPN bosses. Right!

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 03:10 PM
So why the ties and jackets for all the males? Why the double standard? And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

I never said there was not a double standard - that was not the point I was making. I was responding to folks who wanted to place blame on Storm as though she makes all her own calls. If the network had problems with her wardrobe they would have said so. If they didn't it wasn't Tony's place to do it for them. He behaved in a boorish manner. But the rest is pretty typical reaction. A sportscaster says on air that another sports announcer is to old to dress the way she is dressing and compares her to a prostitute (Holden Caulfield reference). Instead of him being criticized for his boorishness the blame is shifted back to the person who was insulted - classic. She gets criticized for the way she dresses. Only a few steps away from the "well what did she expect if she was dressed like that" mentality that some of us hoped was gone.


Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom),

Wow.


I'll tell you what. What happens if T and Wilbon are cowed by this event into becoming like the homogenized wannabes who, in addition to talking sports, all copy T and Wilbon and try to talk movies and do schtick, but do it with no zing, no zip. Please, Tony, for the kids, don't lose the zip. Do it for the kids, Tony, for the kids.

They have already become homogenized. Their show lost ts "zing and zip" a while back. They both now have too many irons in the fire to give the show the attention it deserves. They've been phoning it in for a couple years.


footnote: T used to drip with sarcasm when intoning that phrase, "do it for the kids"; hated when his colleagues would criticize players for not doing the right thing, for not "doing it for the kids." G-d help us, who's gonna protect us from the false sanctimony now?

Tony is an entertainer - I dn't need him to protect me from anything. I also think he was much better as a features writer/general interest columnist than as a sports guy.

77devil
02-25-2010, 03:15 PM
Also, this phrase caught my attention "Hes a 61-year-old, outspoken rebel who is always going to occasionally clash with management"

"always going to occasionally" yuck

Whitlock obviously did not receive an A in freshman English at Duke. ;)

allenmurray
02-25-2010, 03:20 PM
Regarding the "didn't get it" I said that was one plausible reason. You're right, if her producers were OK with it then Storm probably didn't care...the other plausible option I presented.

Even if you consider ESPN anchors as journalists/broadcasters/entertainers or whatever, we can all agree they, and their employer, still adhere to some type of corporate code. You don't see the male anchors in anything but a suit or business casual at the least. And none of the other female anchors at ESPN dress anywhere near to what we saw from Storm last week. So, I'm gonna stick with the "don't let your outfit distract" mantra, regardless of what you want to call ESPN personalities.

You are right. I should have said, "I'd agree with you 100% . . . (instead I agree with you only 99%). What a professional wears should never distract others from the message. I just find it slightly less true for entertainers than for journalists. I think there is an order of importnace.

The anchorperson on the evening news dresses more formally than the host of Entertainment Tonight. It isn't a good idea for either of them to be so distracting in their appearance that it takes away from the message. On the other hand, I don't expect that Storm or the hosts of ET will have to break witn with, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I have news of a tragic occurance . . ." and then go on to talk about massive deaths, or some such thing. So their need to dress conservatively and in a non-distracting way is not as great. After all, it is a sports show, which is entertainment. Let's not get too carried away with the real (lack of) importance of what either Hanna Storm of Tony Kornheiser does for a living. How they dress is not the same issues as how a "real" news anchor dresses.

DukieInKansas
02-25-2010, 03:25 PM
I haven't watched the credits at the end of Sportscenter in a while, but isn't there a line about the wardrobe being provided by XYZ line?

I've never been a fan of boots with a skirt that doesn't come down to just below the top of the boot. That was my main dislike of the outfit. I will need to find a better picture or video as I didn't think it looked overly tight.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 03:48 PM
Allenmurray, how can you possibly believe that Storm's producer "approved" of her attire. She was dressed inappropriately and you are the only one I have seen anywhere who has remotely suggested otherwise. If by "approved" you mean they didn't force her to change, we can see why now can't we.

I don't know if things have changed over the years, but T and Rome used to throw down against one another big time when both did radio for ESPN and Rome wanted a piece of T's time slot in DC. It was vicious, and T had great fun with it. Won too.

If you don't like PTI and think it stinks you are in the minority. However, you might recall that when Tony did radio for ESPN he said it himself, named his program "This-Show-Stinks." At least he and Wibon don't get down in the minutia of how to run a trap against a gape four set or some such, and then make idiots of themselves running the plays in office attire so we will be "educated" about the game.

Do I think that ESPN and other sports broadcast entities only hire female talking heads who are babes in order to pander to its largely male audience that skews on the younger side. You bet. Do I not like it. Even more you bet. Does that have anything to do with how Storm was dressed? No.

I personally think that ESPN's growth has done more harm than good for college sports, but I suspect that I am in the minority. But when they fool with a program that is last skewed to my demographic, or at least is not designed to be off putting to it, I draw the line. I can hear T say it now, "Some line, Ralph, some line."

cato
02-25-2010, 04:01 PM
Which got me to thinking, do you think this whole thing is really just for ESPN's appearances to protect them legally?

I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.

calltheobvious
02-25-2010, 04:12 PM
I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.


Cato, I'd like to file a complaint. After laughing boisterously at your last line, I was forced to try to explain myself to everyone in my office. You try condensing the history of Kornheiser and Hannah Storm's wardrobe choices into about 30 seconds. People were not amused.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 05:17 PM
I am not an employment attorney, but I did share a bed with one last night. Two things: 1) isolated comments do not a hostile work environment make, 2) a single comment can be addressed by a written warning, or a number of other measures.

Of course, we don't know the rest of the facts, and you can be assured that ESPN does indeed have good counsel. There could be any number of things going on that we don't know about -- and wouldn't have known about if Kornholio hadn't decided to channel his inner greybeard in front of an open mic.

Hey, I did too, share a bed with an employment lawyer last night. Say, you're not . . . . Not possible, she knows better than to think that T would channel anything of me. Thanks for the flattery though. BTW, you don't need to be an employment lawyer to know that ESPN isn't the least bit concerned that T might sue; I mean, just because he's my friend, don't mean he's nuts. ;)

SilkyJ
02-25-2010, 07:01 PM
Hey, I did too, share a bed with an employment lawyer last night. Say, you're not . . . . Not possible, she knows better than to think that T would channel anything of me. Thanks for the flattery though. BTW, you don't need to be an employment lawyer to know that ESPN isn't the least bit concerned that T might sue; I mean, just because he's my friend, don't mean he's nuts. ;)

He is, however, literate. No one is talking about TK suing. We (I) was referring to the possibility of a sexual harassment suit down the line from a WOMAN and whether this suspension was an attempt to demonstrate that ESPN "cracks down" on this type of stuff, does not tolerate sexual harassment, etc. etc.

greybeard
02-25-2010, 07:11 PM
He is, however, literate. No one is talking about TK suing. We (I) was referring to the possibility of a sexual harassment suit down the line from a WOMAN and whether this suspension was an attempt to demonstrate that ESPN "cracks down" on this type of stuff, does not tolerate sexual harassment, etc. etc.

I didn't read what you wrote and was addressing Cato's post. If you say that ESPN was concerned about a comment made by someone not acting in its employ about how someone was dressed, which was below standards of common industry standards, and that that is why they disciplined T why it must be so.

I don't think that it is, but if you say so, it must be right. Or whatever.

SilkyJ
02-25-2010, 07:41 PM
I didn't read what you wrote and was addressing Cato's post. If you say that ESPN was concerned about a comment made by someone not acting in its employ about how someone was dressed, which was below standards of common industry standards, and that that is why they disciplined T why it must be so.

I don't think that it is, but if you say so, it must be right. Or whatever.

I was more posing a question, but you keep on commenting on things you haven't read.

Also, cato was responding to my post. But lord knows you just right whatever comes to mind on that particular day...

greybeard
02-25-2010, 07:56 PM
I was more posing a question, but you keep on commenting on things you haven't read.

Also, cato was responding to my post. But lord knows you just right whatever comes to mind on that particular day...

Sorry that I failed to follow back on Cato's post. I noted that Cato sleeps with someone who is an employment lawyer, thinks that ESPN over reacted, and thought that T had "channeled his inner greybeard." I riffed off that, was trying to be funny. I think that this entire issue is funny, except that my man T has taken some hits. NBL for my man T. Sorry, I didn't think anyone here was treating this seriously.

But, to be serious for a moment, I think that T is incredibily thankful that he is getting paid to rap with Wilbon on PTI and that the last thing he would want to do is tick off the people who pay him to do that. The last thing.

weezie
02-25-2010, 08:48 PM
This thread is now making me sad. Let's be friends, or at least let's find something else to gnaw on.
More Roy bashing, that's the ticket!

allenmurray
02-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Do I think that ESPN and other sports broadcast entities only hire female talking heads who are babes in order to pander to its largely male audience that skews on the younger side. You bet.


And, if anyone approved of her "outfit" that day they should be fired. Do not cross go; do not collect two hundred dollars. Fired. It was tawdry and cheap, and out of place with the show, unless this was a parody on SNL.

Judging from the fire storm that Storm created, come on, nobody believes that she did not blow her top, if she could get it off (badaboom), when she heard about T's comments and demand blood.


The woman, to put it more bluntly than T did, was dressed like a cheap trollop who one might see on the street pandering to guys who might want a young girl but are afraid to risk it.

The next time the bosses at ESPN have a women on who is not a complete babe (except for those few who have earned their bones as credible sports commentators over a considerable period of time) will be the first.


Hannah was dressed like, well, I think that T said it gently. Ridiculously tall red patent leather boots, a little girl's mini skirt in what appears a shoddy play on a classic parochial school look, come on, Hannah, what are we trying to say here?

. . . tell Hannah that she really ain't representing the product. OR, MAYBE SHE IS. MAYBE WHAT SHE WAS PORTRAYING IS WHAT THEY THINK WE GUYS REALLY WANT TO SEE. If, so, maybe the suits were not upset with T for dissing Hannah.

Continue to defend and to be the guy who thinks it is okay to call a woman a protitute or trollop based on how she is dressed.

Continue to defend and to be the guy who can't recognize that women can do the job of sportscaster just as well as men and get hired on things other than being "babes".

Continue to defend and to be the guy who insuniautes that a professional chose her clothing based on "selling herself as the product".

Continue to defend and to be the guy who makes sexualized jokes about women's clothing.

Please, greybeard, continue to do this. We need someone to remind us of the macho male culture that dominates sports and the rest of our society. Thankfully it is fading, and women are subjected to this kind of harassment (and harassment is exactly what it is) far less than they used to be. But having stark reminders of the ways in whch men continue to think they have free rein to pass judgement on women based on appearance, and to make sexualized comments and jokes about them, might just make it fade even faster.

-jk
02-26-2010, 09:04 AM
I think this thread has gone around and around long enough.

-jk