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View Full Version : The Official "Mason, for the love of God please stop BLEEPING reaching!!" Thread



SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 11:32 AM
Please post all thoughts and comments related to Mason's propensity to reach in here.

I'll start: Mason, for the love of God, please stop BLEEPING reaching!!!!

Seriously though, Mason is coming along well and I am REALLY excited about his development and game. Kid can play. He's got to stop with these dumb reach in fouls, though. Its hurting his PT (and the team) and the more PT he gets the better he's going to be by March.

You would think after doing this kinda junk for about a month the coaching staff would have shown him tape and drilled it into him to stop...

Anyway, after screaming at the TV for him to stop for about a month I thought I'd share my sentiments with 200 of my closest friends.

dyedwab
02-18-2010, 11:36 AM
...need to move their feet better on defense. Instead they reach...

...this goes to a point I've thought about before... The message should be simpler. "Stay on the floor"

That means two things

1) Don't commit foolish, useless, or frustration fouls because that will force you to the bench.

2) Know your position on D, don't lose your man, and, for the love of all that is sacred in Duke Basketball, please stop reaching in.

BlueintheFace
02-18-2010, 11:40 AM
Can't say I disagree (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=362497&postcount=18)

Duke of Nashville
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
Please post all thoughts and comments related to Mason's propensity to reach in here.

I'll start: Mason, for the love of God, please stop BLEEPING reaching!!!!

Seriously though, Mason is coming along well and I am REALLY excited about his development and game. Kid can play. He's got to stop with these dumb reach in fouls, though. Its hurting his PT (and the team) and the more PT he gets the better he's going to be by March.

You would think after doing this kinda junk for about a month the coaching staff would have shown him tape and drilled it into him to stop...

Anyway, after screaming at the TV for him to stop for about a month I thought I'd share my sentiments with 200 of my closest friends.


I do not have a problem with it, although I will admit I have had my moments where I throw a four letter word around and the guys, but Mason is simply trying to make a play on the ball and infact has poked it out a few times. It can slow the game down with silly fouls and potentially can even cost us a game, however; it could also win us a game.

I like it, Mason brings an certain attitude (with skills to back it) to this team that we have been missing, and with time I believe we could see more tournovers than fouls from his reaching. Dude is a freak of nature, let him learn when and where it can be affective.

Jim3k
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
Last night, though, several of Mason's fouls were in the corner where he was called for blocking as he stepped to his left to try to prevent his man from driving the baseline. That's not reaching, that's poor positioning.

SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 11:46 AM
Can't say I disagree (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=362497&postcount=18)

Yea I'm certainly not the first to comment on this and this hardly an enlightening observation. Just needed to vent. :)

SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Last night, though, several of Mason's fouls were in the corner where he was called for blocking as he stepped to his left to try to prevent his man from driving the baseline. That's not reaching, that's poor positioning.

That was Miles guarding Collins.

allenmurray
02-18-2010, 12:02 PM
You would think after doing this kinda junk for about a month the coaching staff would have shown him tape and drilled it into him to stop...

It is all part of the curve of moving to a higher level of play. In High School and AAU ball Mason was so skilled compared to the competition that he could get away with this stuff. Now the level of play is a lot higher and what worked before no longer works. But since those habits developed over years, it will take a while to break them. It is much harder to unlearn something than it is to acquire a new skill. I wouldn't expect it to get substantially better until next year.

DoubleDuke Dad
02-18-2010, 12:02 PM
Since we are discussing one of the Plumlees, I might as well comment on the other Plumlee.

Miles please remove the grease from your hands before you go onto the court. In the last few games it seems like you drop every ball thrown to you and fumble every rebound out of bounds.

dyedwab
02-18-2010, 12:07 PM
It is all part of the curve of moving to a higher level of play. In High School and AAU ball Mason was so skilled compared to the competition that he could get away with this stuff. Now the level of play is a lot higher and what worked before no longer works. But since those habits developed over years, it will take a while to break them. It is much harder to unlearn something than it is to acquire a new skill. I wouldn't expect it to get substantially better until next year.

As I understand it, at the end of the season, Coach K meets with all his players and among the conversations is what they need to work on before the next season.

For both Miles and Mason, footwork and defensive positioning are the keys. If they improve on those (which they should - they are extremely talented and have improved as players over time), the frustrating reach-in fouls should be limited and the problem will take care of itself.

Remember when as a freshman and soph, Shelden Williams committed a lot of similar fouls - and how much he improved in his junior and senior years?

Kewlswim
02-18-2010, 12:08 PM
Since we are discussing one of the Plumlees, I might as well comment on the other Plumlee.

Miles please remove the grease from your hands before you go onto the court. In the last few games it seems like you drop every ball thrown to you and fumble every rebound out of bounds.

Hi,

He is simply channeling Casey Sanders rather than, say, Carlos Boozer or Christian Laettner...there is, for the love of goodness, a solution to this...

I have no idea what it is...

GO DUKE!!

mr. synellinden
02-18-2010, 12:09 PM
Last night, though, several of Mason's fouls were in the corner where he was called for blocking as he stepped to his left to try to prevent his man from driving the baseline. That's not reaching, that's poor positioning.

I thought it was more Miles who had that problem last night - especially during that sequence in which he picked up three pretty quickly while trying to guard Collins.

*** just noticed that this has already been pointed out.

obsesseddukefan
02-18-2010, 12:11 PM
Since we are discussing one of the Plumlees, I might as well comment on the other Plumlee.

Miles please remove the grease from your hands before you go onto the court. In the last few games it seems like you drop every ball thrown to you and fumble every rebound out of bounds.

Just to add to the frustration of it all.....please refrain from comitting 3 fouls in about 1:30....thank you. :D

Seriously, I think we have been playing outstanding basketball as of late. I hope I am not the only one to say that I am more than impressed with Z these last two games.

Jarhead
02-18-2010, 12:24 PM
The kind of criticism in this thread is just the kind that Roy Williams would be telling the press about his players. It's pretty harsh, and probably more appropriately directed at the players by the coaching staff. They would never go public with it until they have thoroughly covered it with the players, and even then probably would not tell the press.

Let's not be like Roy. If you have something to say, put it on the coaching staff. The players are doing their best.

1999ballboy
02-18-2010, 12:31 PM
The two types of fouls they make that bother me are the reach-ins on the perimeter, and the frustration fouls (especially right after they get beaten to a rebound). If they can learn to stop making those two types of fouls, then we'll be fine. The rest of the fouls will just be Zoubek-type fouls that we should expect on the interior, and as deep as we are in the middle this year, we shouldn't worry if the Plumlees pick up, say, 3 and 2 fouls a game. And even Zoubek has gotten better at not making Zoubek fouls, so hopefully the Plumlees will lessen those in the years to come.

I thought Miles caught a couple of bad breaks last night. When Collins drove on him, you could tell that Miles was trying very hard NOT to foul, but Collins was quicker and had better positioning. That wasn't the kind of thing that's going to be called every time, but quicker players can often get themselves the call. And then there was that attempted blocked shot, which I thought was all ball.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-18-2010, 12:33 PM
Just to add to the frustration of it all.....please refrain from comitting 3 fouls in about 1:30....thank you. :D

Seriously, I think we have been playing outstanding basketball as of late. I hope I am not the only one to say that I am more than impressed with Z these last two games.


I did not watch a lot of the game because I simply can't do it with my girlfriend around. I get too worked up and she gets pissed at me for being too worked up and it's just a mess. Anyway, I was looking at the boxscore and saw that Miles ended up with 4 fouls in 6 minutes!! 4 in 6!! Those are Zoubek type numbers his sophomore year. That just has to be a confidence killer for the kid. You ge ton the floor and it's just foul after foul. Better believe Miles will be doing plenty of agility drills this offseason. Can anyone tell me what types of fouls he committed? We're they at least aggressive fouls?

hurleyfor3
02-18-2010, 12:42 PM
Since we are discussing one of the Plumlees, I might as well comment on the other Plumlee.

Miles please remove the grease from your hands before you go onto the court. In the last few games it seems like you drop every ball thrown to you and fumble every rebound out of bounds.

I think that's the grease Zoubek used to use. He must have given it to Miles a few games ago. (Ewwww.)

DoubleDuke Dad
02-18-2010, 12:43 PM
I did not watch a lot of the game because I simply can't do it with my girlfriend around. I get too worked up and she gets pissed at me for being too worked up and it's just a mess.

Get you priorities straight and get a new girlfriend! :D

obsesseddukefan
02-18-2010, 12:49 PM
I did not watch a lot of the game because I simply can't do it with my girlfriend around. I get too worked up and she gets pissed at me for being too worked up and it's just a mess. Anyway, I was looking at the boxscore and saw that Miles ended up with 4 fouls in 6 minutes!! 4 in 6!! Those are Zoubek type numbers his sophomore year. That just has to be a confidence killer for the kid. You ge ton the floor and it's just foul after foul. Better believe Miles will be doing plenty of agility drills this offseason. Can anyone tell me what types of fouls he committed? We're they at least aggressive fouls?

LOL I know the feeling. The last 3 girlfriends I have had, I tell them in advance what to expect when watching a game with me. It went from them either not thinking it was really that bad, or being "cute", to it becoming a reason for them to come over after we won or not. LOL. Maybe thats why I had relationship problems :D. I am lucky now that my current GF "understands" how I get.

As far as the fouls, IMO, I thought they were ticky tack. but I always go with the fact that if a player beats you on the drive..you are beat, and hope that help slides over to have your back.

GODUKEGO
02-18-2010, 01:09 PM
Grease!!! Same could be said for Zoub, get the grease of your shoes. Plant those size 16's. In defense of Miles, anytime someone came close to Collins, a foul was called. How does one play defense in a situation like that when your opponent backs in and lowers his shoulders in driving to the basket. I recorded the game and re-played those fouls and many were very questionable.

SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 02:03 PM
Let's not be like Roy. If you have something to say, put it on the coaching staff. The players are doing their best.

We aren't coaches, we're fans and hopefully my post came off as only half serious. I think Mason is really playing well, but these fouls are just insanely frustrating.

I mean we aren't talking about him trying to make a play on a drive or something. We are talking about him missing a free throw and running after the guy who gets the board and just slapping at the ball. He's done it multiple times a game for the last few weeks. It has to stop and while its on the coaches to tell him to stop, this is also something the player controls very much. We're aren't talking about the coaches teaching footwork here, we're talking about not making the conscience decision to slap at the ball when another big man gets the rebound.


The two types of fouls they make that bother me are the reach-ins on the perimeter, and the frustration fouls (especially right after they get beaten to a rebound). If they can learn to stop making those two types of fouls, then we'll be fine. The rest of the fouls will just be Zoubek-type fouls that we should expect on the interior, and as deep as we are in the middle this year, we shouldn't worry if the Plumlees pick up, say, 3 and 2 fouls a game. And even Zoubek has gotten better at not making Zoubek fouls, so hopefully the Plumlees will lessen those in the years to come.


100% agree. Trying to body someone up or stop a drive, that's one thing, but slapping after you miss a shot or a rebound is another story.


In defense of Miles, anytime someone came close to Collins, a foul was called. How does one play defense in a situation like that when your opponent backs in and lowers his shoulders in driving to the basket. I recorded the game and re-played those fouls and many were very questionable.

You must not have watched very closely as the times Miles was called for those two fouls on Collins were when Collins faced up and drove the ball baseline from about 18 feet away from the basket. They were nice finesse moves, not lower-your-shoulder power moves, and Miles got beat to the spot.

And for the record, I'm not criticizing that. Its something to work on, but again, its totally different from running after someone after you miss a shot and slapping at the ball. And frankly, I think its a pretty obvious difference.

allenmurray
02-18-2010, 02:07 PM
I did not watch a lot of the game because I simply can't do it with my girlfriend around.

It sounds like you have an important decision to make. ;)

loldevilz
02-18-2010, 04:45 PM
Did anybody see the one-and-done rumor for Mason Plumlee on ESPN insider.
What's up with that?

miramar
02-18-2010, 05:29 PM
You would think after doing this kinda junk for about a month the coaching staff would have shown him tape and drilled it into him to stop...



Way back when the coaches showed Hurley what they called an a**hole loop of nothing but him pouting and carrying on, and he obviously got the message.

I would think that they would be able to put together a pretty convincing reaching/frustration foul loop for Mason.

Jeffrey
02-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Did anybody see the one-and-done rumor for Mason Plumlee on ESPN insider.
What's up with that?

I did not see it, but I think you answered your own question.... "ESPN".

ChicagoCrazy84
02-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Did anybody see the one-and-done rumor for Mason Plumlee on ESPN insider.
What's up with that?

Yeah right. What is he projected at right now, mid-2nd round? If drafted?

weezie
02-18-2010, 05:36 PM
Remember when as a freshman and soph, Shelden Williams committed a lot of similar fouls - and how much he improved in his junior and senior years?


Oh, well done and absolutely agree. All y'all stop berating my Plumlees! Try being their size for a day and then get those feet moving when you're on a small forward.
We'll see great things from them, guaranteed!

ChicagoCrazy84
02-18-2010, 05:36 PM
It sounds like you have an important decision to make. ;)


You have no idea! :D

weezie
02-18-2010, 05:43 PM
I did not watch a lot of the game because I simply can't do it with my girlfriend around. I get too worked up and she gets pissed at me for being too worked up and it's just a mess.

Seriously! You need to take her to a game in Cameron sometime, I'm sure she'll grow to understand your devotion.
I used to embarrass my husband at games, and he's a Dukie!
Now, he even gets up and claps once in a while and not just when the game is over! He's really coming along, I'm very proud of him :cool:

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-18-2010, 06:05 PM
Who is Mason? Oh, you mean Slappy?

Seriously, though....Mason is like a hyperactive lion cub who bats at everything that walks by....As he grows into his body and becomes a full grown lion he will learn when to pounce and will become king of the court.

VanDuk
02-18-2010, 06:10 PM
Mason is no different than most young post players in college.. he is still learning and adjusting. What is disappointing is when an upper classman that should know, continues the same trend. Give him time.

I'm from Nashville and I'm a big Vanderbilt fan, and I think the same thing about Ogilvy who is a Junior. He and Zoubek have the same issues as post players. A lot of it is blamed on their lack of athleticism, when in reality the majority of their issue is poor foot work and bad angles on defense. The poor or slow footwork is what leads to the reaching. A slow player can still be effective if they have a sense of positioning on the court.

My dream is that one day Duke brings Battier back as an asst. coach, just to teach these ideas to players. He was (and is) a master at it.

SilkyJ
02-18-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah right. What is he projected at right now, mid-2nd round? If drafted?

My immediate reaction as well. But since I have an insider account I went and checked it out and Chad Ford, who I consider to be one of the better ESPN guys, says that MP2 has a legit shot at the lottery due to the dearth of big men this year.

My guess: the only reason this is being posted is not b/c Mason indicated he is thinking about it, but rather b/c scouts have probably indicated some interest in Mason as a 1st rounder (anyone with connections to scouts here, please chime in.) I find that a little hard to believe but not totally ridiculous. Scouts were drooling over McBob's potential as a frosh when he averaged 5/5. Same with Ed Davis last year at 6/6. "Potential" commands a serious premium in the draft. So that's probably where this speculation is coming from.

Now from Mason's POV, he would have to look at a guy like McBob who increased his numbers to 13/7 (or so) after Sheld left and he got a bigger role, but dropped his draft position significantly as he demonstrated he wasn't a go-to offensive guy. Mason is of a similar mold in that he is athletic, has guard skills with the ball, but isn't a go-to offensive guy...not ridiculous for him to say, heck I might as well strike while the iron's hot.

I know I kinda started it, but this is really speculation for April, not Feb.


Who is Mason? Oh, you mean Slappy?

Seriously, though....Mason is like a hyperactive lion cub who bats at everything that walks by....As he grows into his body and becomes a full grown lion he will learn when to pounce and will become king of the court.

I REALLY like that analogy. Well played, dingleberry (speaking of, that's what my 11th grade history teacher, and a HS friend of my father's, used to call my friends and me when we'd get a little too rambunctious in class)

Billy Dat
02-19-2010, 08:28 AM
I also read the Chad Ford piece and he is basing his speculation on rising interest in Mason from the NBA scouts that he regularly talks to. Mason is exactly aligned with the modern NBA big man...I am sure they look at him as a Dirk Nowitzki type. To me, the only way to look at it is to hope that he plays well enough to be considered a 2010 lottery pick because that will mean we made a really deep run in March.

Jeffrey
02-19-2010, 04:39 PM
Now from Mason's POV, he would have to look at a guy like McBob who increased his numbers to 13/7 (or so) after Sheld left and he got a bigger role, but dropped his draft position significantly as he demonstrated he wasn't a go-to offensive guy. Mason is of a similar mold in that he is athletic, has guard skills with the ball, but isn't a go-to offensive guy...not ridiculous for him to say, heck I might as well strike while the iron's hot.

Strongly disagree. Josh was soft, but Mason is anything but. IMO, Mason's assertiveness/aggressiveness is one of his best characteristics. IMO, Mason would not hesitate, like Josh did repeatedly, to be our "go-to offensive guy".

sagegrouse
02-19-2010, 07:10 PM
My dream is that one day Duke brings Battier back as an asst. coach, just to teach these ideas to players. He was (and is) a master at it.

My dream is that Battier is elected President in 2028, and I don't think the road to the WH goes through the Duke bench.

sagegrouse

dyedwab
02-19-2010, 08:09 PM
My dream is that Battier is elected President in 2028, and I don't think the road to the WH goes through the Duke bench.

sagegrouse

Should your dream come true, I believe we can be sure that the country would be blessed with a "Strong Defense" :-)

BD80
02-19-2010, 10:32 PM
My dream is that Battier is elected President in 2028, and I don't think the road to the WH goes through the Duke bench.

sagegrouse

It did for Reggie!

Oh, you mean back through the Duke bench.

slower
02-20-2010, 08:18 AM
...I am sure they look at him as a Dirk Nowitzki type. .

that's absurd. not even close. not yet, at least.

CDu
02-20-2010, 09:17 AM
I also read the Chad Ford piece and he is basing his speculation on rising interest in Mason from the NBA scouts that he regularly talks to. Mason is exactly aligned with the modern NBA big man...I am sure they look at him as a Dirk Nowitzki type. To me, the only way to look at it is to hope that he plays well enough to be considered a 2010 lottery pick because that will mean we made a really deep run in March.

If they see Mason as a Dirk Nowitzki type, then I really question their scouting skills. The two players are completely different styles of players. Dirk is a not-super-athletic big guy who is a really gifted shooter/scorer, but not a great passer. Mason is a super-athletic big guy who isn't a great shooter but has game-changing leaping ability and is actually a pretty good passer (though he has a tendency to try to do too much). I don't disagree that Nowitzki is on people's radar due to his size and athleticism, but I don't think the Nowitzki comp is what they see.

slower
02-20-2010, 09:35 AM
they are totally different types of players.

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-20-2010, 11:20 AM
they are totally different types of players.

Yeah, Nowitzki is not a good comp...

I think it is human nature to initially compare white players to other white players, but Mason's skill set is not one that is typicall possessed by white guys. Remember, white men can't jump. I am living proof of that.

Chris Anderson comes to mind as a big athletic white guy who can jump in the NBA. But, I think Mason has a lot of room to improve his offensive game, where he would become a better offensive player than Anderson.

A guy who is coming to mind as a good Mason comp is Anthony Randolph who played at LSU and plays for the Warriors. I think they are pretty similar type of players.

Billy Dat
02-20-2010, 11:32 AM
OK - the Nowitzki comp is off, so they've got some other comp in mind - bottom line, mindsets seem to be changing. Right now, in the mind of NBA scouts, he seems to be considered the highest ranked pro prospect on our squad.

FireOgilvie
02-20-2010, 04:38 PM
Right now, in the mind of NBA scouts, he seems to be considered the highest ranked pro prospect on our squad.

Yep.

Also, the Chris Andersen comparison that Sgt. gave is a pretty good one, IMO. There are probably others that are better.

I said before the season started that it wouldn't really take much for Mason to get drafted in the first round if he decided to come out. He's producing less than I thought he would and he's still projected in the first round. Like someone said, scouts pretty much only care about potential, especially with guys that appear to work really hard and have the right attitude (most Duke guys do).

77devil
02-21-2010, 07:22 PM
In for 2 minutes and two fouls including a sloppy reach in. Guess the coaches haven't shown him the video yet. Show it to Miles too.

PSurprise
02-21-2010, 09:07 PM
how much interest in Mason after his line vs. Va Tech. Ouch. Hopefully he can get into a rhythm and show us why there's any speculation (however small) in him at all.

CDu
02-22-2010, 08:20 AM
how much interest in Mason after his line vs. Va Tech. Ouch. Hopefully he can get into a rhythm and show us why there's any speculation (however small) in him at all.

Probably the exact same interest as before last night. None of the NBA folks are looking at him based on what he's doing right now. It's all based in the fact that he's 6'10" with an NBA body and amazing leaping ability and coordination for a guy his size. They believe that they can develop the rest.

davidrosenhp
02-22-2010, 09:22 AM
My dream is that one day Duke brings Battier back as an asst. coach, just to teach these ideas to players. He was (and is) a master at it.

Hate to repeat the oft mentioned wojo-is-no-big-man-coach, but I think it impacts recruiting of bigs and slows development of those we get. Don't want to wait for the development to come when we may only get another year or two out of Mason. Love the idea of Battier - he seems the type to want to coach someday, although he wasn't a big. Wish we could get Gminiski out of the booth - he was a real center. Wonder what Terry Chile (sp?) is doing these days? Alaa? Maybe Coach K can break his unwillingness to put only ex-players on the bench

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 09:31 AM
Hate to repeat the oft mentioned wojo-is-no-big-man-coach, but I think it impacts recruiting of bigs and slows development of those we get. Don't want to wait for the development to come when we may only get another year or two out of Mason. Love the idea of Battier - he seems the type to want to coach someday, although he wasn't a big. Wish we could get Gminiski out of the booth - he was a real center. Wonder what Terry Chile (sp?) is doing these days? Alaa? Maybe Coach K can break his unwillingness to put only ex-players on the bench

Yeah, look what a lousy job he has been doing with Zoubs over the past few weeks. 'Cause we all know if you were never a true center in college you can't coach big men. We need a big man coach who is at least 6' 10" - somebody like Pete Newell. :rolleyes:

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 10:01 AM
Yeah, look what a lousy job he has been doing with Zoubs over the past few weeks. 'Cause we all know if you were never a true center in college you can't coach big men. We need a big man coach who is at least 6' 10" - somebody like Pete Newell. :rolleyes:

Easy big fella.. lol

3 Weeks worth of good games for Zoub after 4 years does not a great coach make. Especially in light of the fact that we have been absolutely killed in March over that time by lack of inside production. I think the point he was trying to make was, it would be *helpful* to have someone who played the position to coach it.. which I am inclined to agree with. It's not necessary obviously.. but it would help. I don't think his point was you need someone tall to coach your frontcourt.

Nevertheless, I don't think there is a reasonable argument to be made for Duke being a breeding ground or recruiting hot bed for big guys.

arnie
02-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Yeah, look what a lousy job he has been doing with Zoubs over the past few weeks. 'Cause we all know if you were never a true center in college you can't coach big men. We need a big man coach who is at least 6' 10" - somebody like Pete Newell. :rolleyes:

Whether it's a real problem or only perception, the perception is very strong. I suspect this perception is partially why we didn't get the Patterson's, Monroe's and others we were after. Claiming our coaching staff has done a good job with Zoubek after 3 1/2 years of working with him is a stretch. For whatever reason, our recent bigs have not developed reliable inside moves and this creates the perception that our staff cannot coach big men.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 10:21 AM
I think the point he was trying to make was, it would be *helpful* to have someone who played the position to coach it.. which I am inclined to agree with. It's not necessary obviously.. but it would help.

It is simply not true that the best "big man" coaches in basketball have been folks who played at the 4 or 5 spot. While at first glance it seems logical, it simply ain't so. Big men don't create on their own - they are more dependant on point guard play for their offensive production than anyone the court. Having someone who has played point, who is a good overall coach of basketball, who is a good teacher of the game, and who understands positioning as it related to play development and scoring is what you need in a "big man" coach. The idea that you have to have played the position is simply not true.

Jeffrey
02-22-2010, 10:42 AM
It is simply not true that the best "big man" coaches in basketball have been folks who played at the 4 or 5 spot. While at first glance it seems logical, it simply ain't so. Big men don't create on their own - they are more dependant on point guard play for their offensive production than anyone the court. Having someone who has played point, who is a good overall coach of basketball, who is a good teacher of the game, and who understands positioning as it related to play development and scoring is what you need in a "big man" coach. The idea that you have to have played the position is simply not true.

John Wooden!

davidrosenhp
02-22-2010, 11:00 AM
Some good thoughts and I will concede you don't need to have played a position to coach it, but the evidence speaks for itself. Took Zoub 3 and 1/2 years to learn how to keep the ball above his shoulders and how to use his legs for defensive and offensive positioning – and 5 weeks ago people were complaining abouthim. We don't recruit or produce centers. I think Sheldon's struggles in the NBA show how little he learned here, and Brand is playing forward. There is also the element of summers: like the Miami 'Canes in football, Georgetown and UNC alumni play pick-up and work out with students in summers. Motumbo talked about how Ewing and 'Zo and other G-town big man pro's beat on him all summer long. Look, I think we have a great team and coach, but it is guards and swing men and 3's like Singler, McRoberts, Shav, Alarie, Lance Thomas, the transfer from Rutgers whose name I forget, and so on down low. Be interesting to see the Mason trajectory. I hope I'm wrong and he becomes a center, if only for a few more behind the head dunks.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 11:06 AM
John Wooden!

Do you mean the John Wooden who was 7' 3", and played center for the Cosmic All-Stars for 43 straight years? Of course he could coach big men.

But that other John Wooden, you know the one who coached at some no-name school on the west coast and never had any good big men play for him - the one who never won anything? You can't mean him - he couldn't develop big men - after all, he never played the position, did he? :D

CDu
02-22-2010, 11:19 AM
It is simply not true that the best "big man" coaches in basketball have been folks who played at the 4 or 5 spot. While at first glance it seems logical, it simply ain't so.
...
The idea that you have to have played the position is simply not true.

Completely agreed. Pete Newell (arguably the best big man's coach ever), was not very big (about 6'2" I believe).


Having someone who has played point, who is a good overall coach of basketball, who is a good teacher of the game, and who understands positioning as it related to play development and scoring is what you need in a "big man" coach.

I disagree here. I don't think you need to have played any specific position to be a good big man's coach. You just need to be a good coach, a good teacher, and you need to know how to coach big men.

I don't know if Wojo is or is not suited to being a big man's coach. But nothing specific about having playing PG makes him any more or less suited to coach big men.

davidrosenhp
02-22-2010, 11:19 AM
With no attempt at contempt, you can't use the best coach ever to make your point. That would be like saying since Michael could take off from the fould line and dunk, there's no reason Scheyer can't. Wooden was one of a kind.

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Do you mean the John Wooden who was 7' 3", and played center for the Cosmic All-Stars for 43 straight years? Of course he could coach big men.

But that other John Wooden, you know the one who coached at some no-name school on the west coast and never had any good big men play for him - the one who never won anything? You can't mean him - he couldn't develop big men - after all, he never played the position, did he? :D

You completely miss the point that is trying to be made... or the fact that no one has said you have to be TALL to coach big guys. But that being said, if you believe Duke does a good job recruiting and coaching up it's big men.. then so be it.. I guess we just disagree.

Congratulations on your snappy comebacks though. :D

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 11:41 AM
You completely miss the point that is trying to be made... or the fact that no one has said you have to be TALL to coach big guys. But that being said, if you believe Duke does a good job recruiting and coaching up it's big men.. then so be it.. I guess we just disagree.

Congratulations on your snappy comebacks though. :D

So the suggestions of Battier, Giminski, Alaa Abdelnaby and Chili were just coincidence?

Lighten up Francis.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 11:46 AM
Completely agreed. Pete Newell (arguably the best big man's coach ever), was not very big (about 6'2" I believe).



I disagree here. I don't think you need to have played any specific position to be a good big man's coach. You just need to be a good coach, a good teacher, and you need to know how to coach big men.

I don't know if Wojo is or is not suited to being a big man's coach. But nothing specific about having playing PG makes him any more or less suited to coach big men.

Actually, you are right, though I do think point guards in general are in a better position to do the "teaching of positioning related to play development" than are other players - probably the reason so many great coaches are former point guards.

MChambers
02-22-2010, 11:51 AM
Hate to repeat the oft mentioned wojo-is-no-big-man-coach, but I think it impacts recruiting of bigs and slows development of those we get. Don't want to wait for the development to come when we may only get another year or two out of Mason. Love the idea of Battier - he seems the type to want to coach someday, although he wasn't a big. Wish we could get Gminiski out of the booth - he was a real center. Wonder what Terry Chile (sp?) is doing these days? Alaa? Maybe Coach K can break his unwillingness to put only ex-players on the bench

I saw Terry Chili here in DC a few years ago, and thanked him for his free throws to beat then #1 Maryland, in 1976 or so.

He's tall, yes. Is that why you think he could be a big man coach? Any other reasons?

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 11:54 AM
so the suggestions of Battier, Giminski. and Alaa Abdelnaby were just coincidence?

Lighten up Francis.

I didn't see the Abdelnaby mention.

Battier and Giminski were great big guy players.. that's why their names were mentioned. If Battier could come back and teach our big guys to play with his sense of court awareness and defensive angles and positioning.. I wouldn't care if he was 6'3. Of course, it does help that he has played the position... which is the point that is trying to be made.

And like I said.. if you are pleased with the product Duke is able to recruit and produce in the frontcourt.. then we simply disagree.

Ah-Doh-Bee... Good...

sagegrouse
02-22-2010, 12:09 PM
So the suggestions of Battier, Giminski, Alaa Abdelnaby and Chili were just coincidence?

Lighten up Francis.

Here's my assessment of the above suggestions:

Battier - We already agreed he is going to be elected President of the US. Ergo, no way.

Terry Chili - I don't remember Terry on the court, but others have described his as a 6-10 guy who played like he was 6-5. In any event, Terry has been a successful TV executive for many years, trying something different now. Terry would probably find your suggestion humorous.

Alaa Abdelnaby - Check with his classmates. I don't think this one is likely.

Mike Gminski - A huge success on and off the court. Never happen.

And BTW, WRT to Greg Monroe, he signed with JT III, who was a GUARD at Princeton. Surely, he didn't think that Big Jawn, Patrick, Zo, or Dikembe were gonna be at practice every day to teach him post moves.

sagegrouse

sagegrouse
02-22-2010, 12:15 PM
So the suggestions of Battier, Giminski, Alaa Abdelnaby and Chili were just coincidence?

Lighten up Francis.

Here's my assessment of the above suggestions:

Battier - We already agreed he is going to be elected President of the US. Ergo, no way.

Terry Chilie - I don't remember Terry on the court, but others have described his as a 6-10 guy who played like he was 6-5. In any event, Terry has been a successful TV executive for many years, trying something different now. Terry would probably find your suggestion humorous.

Alaa Abdelnaby - Uhhhh.... I don't think so.

Mike Gminski - A huge success on and off the court. Never happen.

And BTW, WRT to Greg Monroe, he signed with JT III, who was a GUARD at Princeton. Surely, he didn't think that Big Jawn, Patrick, Zo, or Dikembe were gonna be at practice every day to teach him post moves.

sagegrouse

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 12:22 PM
I didn't see the Abdelnaby mention.

Post #47 - this thread. Mentioned by his first name.


or the fact that no one has said you have to be TALL to coach big guys.

So the suggestions are Giminski (6' 11"), Battier (6' 8"), Chili (6' 10") and Abdelnaby (6' 11"). But those suggestions have nothing to do with height? Got it.


And like I said.. if you are pleased with the product Duke is able to recruit and produce in the frontcourt.. then we simply disagree.

"Bigs" who played at Duke after Wojo joined the coaching staff:

Carlos Boozer, Shelden Williams, Shavlik Randolph, and Josh McRoberts (all are in the NBA). One of them won a national championship; one was a national player of the year. Miles and Mason are developing about as fast as one expects Freshmen and Sophomore big men to develop. While Elton Brand is the notable exception, most bigs develop late. So, that is what has been "produced".

In terms of who has been recruited, recruiting "misses" on big name power players probably has more to do with the fact that Coach K does not run an offense that is geared toward true centers than it does with which assistant coach works with the bigs. I think laying the blame for which big men do or do not come to Duke at the feet of an assistnat coach is not realsitic - it has far more to do with the style of play the head coach favors. I think the criticism of Wojo is unfounded. I suspect Coach K does as well or he would have brought in someone different or additional to coach big men.

greybeard
02-22-2010, 12:29 PM
Could be that the way that this team presents on offense does not suit either Plumlee and that they don't like it--that they want a more complete (for lack of a better term) role in the offense and do not embrace what the team is asking of them.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 12:41 PM
Could be that the way that this team presents on offense does not suit either Plumlee and that they don't like it--that they want a more complete (for lack of a better term) role in the offense and do not embrace what the team is asking of them.

They way you phrased that seems to assume an attitudinal issue on their part, which I have seen no sign of (and which I don't think you have any knowledge of). Perhaps it would have been equally true to have said:


Could be that the way that this team presents on offense does not suit either Plumlee's game, and they haven't been able to make the adjustment yet - they are accustomed to a differnent (for lack of a better term) role in the offense and are not yet prepared for the role the team is asking of them.
My statement also makes an assumption of which I have no knolwedge, but it assumes the best about a couple of fine young men instead of assuming the worst.

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 12:42 PM
Post #47 - this thread. Mentioned by his first name.



So the suggestions are Giminski (6' 11"), Battier (6' 8"), Chili (6' 10") and Abdelnaby (6' 11"). But those suggestions have nothing to do with height? Got it.



"Bigs" who played at Duke after Wojo joined the coaching staff:

Carlos Boozer, Shelden Williams, Shavlik Randolph, and Josh McRoberts are all in the NBA. ne of them won a national championship, one was a national player of the year. I think the criticism of Wojo is unfounded.

Once more.. and then I will be finished since this conversation is not going anywhere.

The fact that those players (Battier, Giminski) played the POSITION is the point.. not the fact that they are tall. It has absolutely nothing to do with height.. it's the fact that they played the position. As I clearly mentioned above when I said.. I wouldn't care if Battier was 6'3 if he could coach our big guys how to play like he did.

Also, Zoubek could go pro.. would that mean he was a good player in his time at Duke? Going pro is not a gauge on college success... lots of very fine college players don't go to the NBA. The chemistry cancer that was McRoberts was here 1 year and left and now spends his time between the D-League and the end of the Pacers bench. You are telling me that you feel Shav was a testament to our coaching staff and big man production? Sheldon and Boozer were both very good.. no argument from me on those.

You are apparently pleased with Duke's frontcourt production.. I clearly am not. End of story.

:)

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 01:11 PM
The fact that those players (Battier, Giminski) played the POSITION is the point.. not the fact that they are tall. It has absolutely nothing to do with height.. it's the fact that they played the position. As I clearly mentioned above when I said.. I wouldn't care if Battier was 6'3 if he could coach our big guys how to play like he did.

You are apparently pleased with Duke's frontcourt production.. I clearly am not. End of story.

:)

Got it - it is not because they were tall, but becasue they played the position. And even if Battier had been 6' 3" you'd want him to coach big men because he played the position; therefore he could teach them to play the position like he did. So far, so good. :)

But now we get to the part where logic fails - if Battier had been 6' 3" he wouldn't have played that position. You say it is not height, but playing the position that matters, but only tall guys play that positon. :confused:

Give coach K a call. Tell him you have a great idea. He should find a 6' 3" retired power forward/center to coach the big men, becasue as long as you played that position you can coach it, and it is not height that matters, but having played the position (you know, the onle that is only played by tall guys). I'm sure you'll have his rapt attention. :D

Kedsy
02-22-2010, 02:17 PM
The fact that those players (Battier, Giminski) played the POSITION is the point.. not the fact that they are tall. It has absolutely nothing to do with height.. it's the fact that they played the position. As I clearly mentioned above when I said.. I wouldn't care if Battier was 6'3 if he could coach our big guys how to play like he did.

When did Shane Battier play center? My recollection is he was more of a wing player who could defend both forward spots (or guard spots, for that matter), but I don't remember him ever playing in the middle.

CDu
02-22-2010, 02:20 PM
When did Shane Battier play center? My recollection is he was more of a wing player who could defend both forward spots (or guard spots, for that matter), but I don't remember him ever playing in the middle.

Yeah, he played primarily at the 4 at Duke. Defensively though, he defended just about any position on the floor, including 7-footer Loren Woods in the championship game. Offensively, he didn't spend a lot of time in the post. He was very much a "face-up 4" offensively.

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 03:09 PM
Got it - it is not because they were tall, but becasue they played the position. And even if Battier had been 6' 3" you'd want him to coach big men because he played the position; therefore he could teach them to play the position like he did. So far, so good. :)

But now we get to the part where logic fails - if Battier had been 6' 3" he wouldn't have played that position. You say it is not height, but playing the position that matters, but only tall guys play that positon. :confused:

Give coach K a call. Tell him you have a great idea. He should find a 6' 3" retired power forward/center to coach the big men, becasue as long as you played that position you can coach it, and it is not height that matters, but having played the position (you know, the onle that is only played by tall guys). I'm sure you'll have his rapt attention. :D

I believe my logic failed when I attempted to engage in this conversation with you.

And hey..tell Coach K in YOUR weekly meetings with him.. I'm a big fan. :rolleyes:


Give em Hell Devils!!

BD80
02-22-2010, 03:10 PM
Easy big fella.. lol

3 Weeks worth of good games for Zoub after 4 years does not a great coach make. Especially in light of the fact that we have been absolutely killed in March over that time by lack of inside production. I think the point he was trying to make was, it would be *helpful* to have someone who played the position to coach it.. which I am inclined to agree with. It's not necessary obviously.. but it would help. I don't think his point was you need someone tall to coach your frontcourt.

Nevertheless, I don't think there is a reasonable argument to be made for Duke being a breeding ground or recruiting hot bed for big guys.

Who ARE the "good" big man coaches?

Who has done a better job than what our staff has done with Z and Lance?

You can't point to guys like Thad Matta at Ohio State just because he has recruited the #1 center three years in a row.

Even our big "misses," Patterson and Monroe, haven't shown clear benefits of coaching.

Even if you point to ol' roy with Hanswhoever, remember Hans was 30 when he started and stayed 4 years, and then compare the progress unc's current crop of bigs has made.

greybeard
02-22-2010, 03:12 PM
They way you phrased that seems to assume an attitudinal issue on their part, which I have seen no sign of (and which I don't think you have any knowledge of). Perhaps it would have been equally true to have said:


Could be that the way that this team presents on offense does not suit either Plumlee's game, and they haven't been able to make the adjustment yet - they are accustomed to a differnent (for lack of a better term) role in the offense and are not yet prepared for the role the team is asking of them.
My statement also makes an assumption of which I have no knolwedge, but it assumes the best about a couple of fine young men instead of assuming the worst.

I thought that people said that Miles and Mason were not getting back on defense. We've all seen both take some ridiculous shots--Mason's 3 ball early in the clock the last game, Miles' air ball early in the clock a previous game--and neither has done anything with respect to screening or rebounding that shows any, well, let's say, enthusiasm.

I was amazed at Z's absolutely joy in setting very effective screens, well timed and integral to the final attack that lead to a shot, on many sets, and offensive rebounding. It seemed he did not look once for a shot, not once. He left no doubt but that he was 110 percent into that role.

If that is the model you are asking the Plumlees to embrace, or anything like it, I do not think that it is a matter of whether that model fits their games or not. I think it more likely that they just do not like doing it. I think that there is some evidence of their discontent.

Not saying that they are discontent. But, it is at least as viable a theory as they need more or better coaching.

Kedsy
02-22-2010, 03:15 PM
Even if you point to ol' roy with Hanswhoever, remember Hans was 30 when he started and stayed 4 years, and then compare the progress unc's current crop of bigs has made.

Actually, from a statistical standpoint, Hansbrough hardly developed at all over his four years. His senior year was not substantially different from his freshman year and was significantly worse than his junior year.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 03:28 PM
Once more.. and then I will be finished since this conversation is not going anywhere.

and then later


I believe my logic failed when I attempted to engage in this conversation with you.

I knew you didn't mean it! :D Kind of like the old Lay's Potato Chips commercials - you can't eat just one! (Are you oldenough to remember those commercials?) The thing is, I'm not one of those guys who thinks Coach K or his staff can do no wrong. I just think given their history of success the burden of proof is not on those who support them, but on who criticize them. And you've brought nothing to the table.


And hey..tell Coach K in YOUR weekly meetings with him.. I'm a big fan.


I don't meet with him - then I again, I'm not the one criticizing his assistants. I let him do his job, including assigning his assistants to the duties he thinks they are best suited.

Jeffrey
02-22-2010, 03:33 PM
With no attempt at contempt, you can't use the best coach ever to make your point. That would be like saying since Michael could take off from the fould line and dunk, there's no reason Scheyer can't. Wooden was one of a kind.

I thought your opinion was a guard is not well suited to be a big man coach. John Wooden was an exceptional college guard and he coached, IMO, the best big man in the history of college basketball (Bill Walton). John Wooden did not coach the best 1, 2, 3, or 4 in the history of college basketball, even if he was the greatest coach.

greybeard
02-22-2010, 03:37 PM
allenmurray, aside from the fact that I do not assume that they are playing poorly because they are discontented with their roles on offense, only that it is possible, why would such an ssumption, had I made it, be "assuming the worst about these young men?"

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 03:38 PM
and then later



I knew you didn't mean it! :D Kind of like the old Lay's Potato Chips commercials - you can't eat just one! (Are you oldenough to remember those commercials?) The thing is, I'm not one of those guys who thinks Coach K or his staff can do no wrong. I just think given their history of success the burden of proof is not on those who support them, but on who criticize them. And you've brought nothing to the table.



I don't meet with him - then I again, I'm not the one criticizing his assistants. I let him do his job, including assigning his assistants to the duties he thinks they are best suited.

You don't meet with him.. you just use veiled references about the fact that I don't meet with him as proof that my argument isn't valid? Gotcha.

You know what's ironic about all this.. I let them do their job too.. and I let the guy that gives me my diet coke at McDonalds do his job.. but that doesn't mean I cant have a conversation with some folks about how I think their product could be better.

Also, I'm not arguing the history of the team's success. Coach K has 3 national titles.. who can argue with that? But that doesn't mean there isn't a space for conversation about room for improvement or concern. You have 3,600 posts on this forum.. who can argue with that? But that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement there either.

And you may find this hard to believe.. but just because the AllenMurray doesn't agree with me.. does not mean I haven't "brought anything to the table".

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 03:44 PM
allenmurray, aside from the fact that I do not assume that they are playing poorly because they are discontented with their roles on offense, only that it is possible, why would such an ssumption, had I made it, be "assuming the worst about these young men?"

These are basketball players playing at one of the elite programs in the country - give that, I thought your statement that they "do not embrace what the team is asking of them" - semed a pretty negative reflection on their attitude. Perhaps I mis-read your meaning? To be honest I can't recall other instances of you speaking ill of a players' attitude or committment to the team, so I fully realize this may not be what you meant. Perhaps by "do not embrace what the team is aksing" you meant they were expecting different offensive sets? Different roles within the offense ? That would make sense, and wold be more a reflection on expectations rather than on committment.

allenmurray
02-22-2010, 03:46 PM
You don't meet with him.. you just use veiled references about the fact that I don't meet with him as proof that my argument isn't valid? Gotcha.

You know what's ironic about all this.. I let them do their job too.. and I let the guy that gives me my diet coke at McDonalds do his job.. but that doesn't mean I cant have a conversation with some folks about how I think their product could be better.

Also, I'm not arguing the history of the team's success. Coach K has 3 national titles.. who can argue with that? But that doesn't mean there isn't a space for conversation about room for improvement or concern. You have 3,600 posts on this forum.. who can argue with that? But that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement there either.

And you may find this hard to believe.. but just because the AllenMurray doesn't agree with me.. does not mean I haven't "brought anything to the table".

Chill out - the sun will still rise tomorrow, even if somebody said someting onthe internt with which you disagree.

I do love it when someone indignantly says, "this will be my last post on this topic" then posts again 45 minutes later. It is so darn amusing.

greybeard
02-22-2010, 03:55 PM
These are basketball players playing at one of the elite programs in the country - give that, I though your statement that the "do not embrace what the team is asking of them" - semed pretty negative and reflectged on thier attitude. Perhpas I mis-read your meaning.

Would very much depend on context--if they had expectations of something else and why. Not productive to go further with this. Your way of putting it works for me. Not looking to start a speculative controversy.

davidrosenhp
02-22-2010, 04:10 PM
(first of all, this board is like bar talk without a bar and not face to face - no one really knows what goes on in practice, in coaches meetings, in K's mind, player health, and so on. Some people seem to get too uptight or act too certain. We don't know the reality so we speculate...should be fun, part of being a sports fan. I may be completely wrong, but the give and take is thought provoking and a distraction throughout the working day.)

My opinion, Jeffrey, is 1)that someone who played the post regardless of height is most likely to be a better post teacher; 2) that perceptions among recruits matter even if Wojo is a good post teacher; and again 3)using Wooden is an example is a fallacy of the sixth sigma: the extreme case does not support the general conclusion. I wouldn't use Da Vinci to illustrate that all painters can be inventors; nor would I use Babe Ruth to support a case that being an out-of-shape drunk doesn’t impact hitting skills. Wooden was a freak - once in a century. And we don't know who was on his bench, and who coached his freshman (who were red-shirted by law).

I think I was wrong to list Terry Chile and perhaps Battier, but someone who played the post is more likely to understand what it feels like to have 250 pounds of Lurch Hansbrough or Buck Williams leaning on you to dislodge you from the post and illustrate the footwork and leverage to resist. Key point is “more likely” – always exceptions.

SilkyJ
02-22-2010, 04:38 PM
The fact that those players (Battier, Giminski) played the POSITION is the point.. not the fact that they are tall.

That makes sense, except for the part that 99.999% of post players ARE TALL. Kinda goes hand in hand. Now stop thread hijacking.

pfrduke
02-22-2010, 04:51 PM
I think I was wrong to list Terry Chile and perhaps Battier, but someone who played the post is more likely to understand what it feels like to have 250 pounds of Lurch Hansbrough or Buck Williams leaning on you to dislodge you from the post and illustrate the footwork and leverage to resist. Key point is “more likely” – always exceptions.

A question (and a legitimate, albeit somewhat leading one):

Who are the big man coaches at Connecticut, North Carolina, Kansas, Ohio State, and any other school that has a reputation for churning out good big men, and are they former 5s?

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 05:13 PM
That makes sense, except for the part that 99.999% of post players ARE TALL. Kinda goes hand in hand. Now stop thread hijacking.

No one is thread hijacking.. I'm trying (outside of my banter with AllenMurray) to engage in discussion. 99.9% of PG's are generally shorter as well... but then there is Magic Johnson. I honestly can't understand what is so hard to understand about what is being said. Height has nothing to do with it.. it's the position.

VanDuk
02-22-2010, 05:16 PM
(first of all, this board is like bar talk without a bar and not face to face - no one really knows what goes on in practice, in coaches meetings, in K's mind, player health, and so on. Some people seem to get too uptight or act too certain. We don't know the reality so we speculate...should be fun, part of being a sports fan. I may be completely wrong, but the give and take is thought provoking and a distraction throughout the working day.)

My opinion, Jeffrey, is 1)that someone who played the post regardless of height is most likely to be a better post teacher; 2) that perceptions among recruits matter even if Wojo is a good post teacher; and again 3)using Wooden is an example is a fallacy of the sixth sigma: the extreme case does not support the general conclusion. I wouldn't use Da Vinci to illustrate that all painters can be inventors; nor would I use Babe Ruth to support a case that being an out-of-shape drunk doesn’t impact hitting skills. Wooden was a freak - once in a century. And we don't know who was on his bench, and who coached his freshman (who were red-shirted by law).

I think I was wrong to list Terry Chile and perhaps Battier, but someone who played the post is more likely to understand what it feels like to have 250 pounds of Lurch Hansbrough or Buck Williams leaning on you to dislodge you from the post and illustrate the footwork and leverage to resist. Key point is “more likely” – always exceptions.

^ This.

SilkyJ
02-22-2010, 06:15 PM
No one is thread hijacking.. I'm trying (outside of my banter with AllenMurray) to engage in discussion. 99.9% of PG's are generally shorter as well... but then there is Magic Johnson. I honestly can't understand what is so hard to understand about what is being said. Height has nothing to do with it.. it's the position.

Great now we're talking about Point Guards. Not all tall players are post players, but all post players are tall. That is what's being said..

Let's use our 8th grade transitive property to break it down for you.

Position = Post Player
Post Player = Tall
Position = Tall

greybeard
02-22-2010, 07:38 PM
The people who often best understanding the art of finishing are littles. They also can sometimes understand the art of making oneself into a good receiver. I always guessed that Larry Brown was a great big-man coach.

Kedsy
02-22-2010, 08:12 PM
Height has nothing to do with it.. it's the position.

Then why did you mention Battier, who never played that position?

SupaDave
02-22-2010, 09:31 PM
Wow - and it just occured to me that this thread was about Mason reaching...

SupaDave
02-22-2010, 09:34 PM
But since this thread has evolved somewhat into the usual I'll ask the following: Kobe Bryant is one of the best post-up guards in the game who sought out mentoring from Hakeem, arguably the center with the best FOOT work of all time - you wouldn't let Kobe train your big men?

Jeffrey
02-23-2010, 10:20 AM
My opinion, Jeffrey, is 1)that someone who played the post regardless of height is most likely to be a better post teacher; 2) that perceptions among recruits matter even if Wojo is a good post teacher; and again 3)using Wooden is an example is a fallacy of the sixth sigma: the extreme case does not support the general conclusion.

Wooden was a freak - once in a century. And we don't know who was on his bench, and who coached his freshman (who were red-shirted by law).


In regards to college coaches, I think the vast majority of high school bigs pick colleges mostly based upon head coaches (mostly former guards), not assistant coaches. Bill Walton talks almost exclusively about John Wooden, not his post assistant coach(es). Regardless of who our assistants are (and we've gone through many), I think the bigs are coming here to play for K and are receiving a lot of his attention.

AtlDuke72
02-23-2010, 10:54 AM
I think the notion that a former point guard is not qualified to coach post players is just silly. Look at the size of some of the NBA coaches. Some great coaches never played at all. It is not rocket science and the principles to be taught can be learned by anybody.

allenmurray
02-23-2010, 10:54 AM
But since this thread has evolved somewhat into the usual I'll ask the following: Kobe Bryant is one of the best post-up guards in the game who sought out mentoring from Hakeem, arguably the center with the best FOOT work of all time - you wouldn't let Kobe train your big men?

By your example bigs can coach guards. So then who would gaurds coach?

allenmurray
02-23-2010, 10:56 AM
I think the notion that a former point guard is not qualified to coach post players is just silly. Look at the size of some of the NBA coaches. Some great coaches never played at all. It is not rocket science and the principles to be taught can be learned by anybody.

I agree - it also doesn't follow that you had to ve a great player to be a great coach. They are two different skill sets. There are a number of outstanding coaches who were not top flight players. This is true in fields other than basketball as well.

Jeffrey
02-23-2010, 11:49 AM
My opinion, Jeffrey, is 1)that someone who played the post regardless of height is most likely to be a better post teacher; 2) that perceptions among recruits matter even if Wojo is a good post teacher; and again 3)using Wooden is an example is a fallacy of the sixth sigma: the extreme case does not support the general conclusion.

I'll try this another way. Coach K is extremely driven (geez, he even arranges the team bench at halftime). Do you sincerely believe that K would compromise his team by having an inferior post assistant? Or, do you believe K does not know how to recruit/select a high quality post assistant?

Strictly as an aside, I'm so high on Wojo that I think he'll be our next head coach.

Devilsfan
02-23-2010, 11:55 AM
It took Z three and one half years to move his feet and stay in the game instead of riding the pine with multiple fouls. Now it seems like its the "brothers two" turn.

sagegrouse
02-23-2010, 12:26 PM
I'll try this another way. Coach K is extremely driven (geez, he even arranges the team bench at halftime). Do you sincerely believe that K would compromise his team by having an inferior post assistant? Or, do you believe K does not know how to recruit/select a high quality post assistant?

Strictly as an aside, I'm so high on Wojo that I think he'll be our next head coach.


Also, K is not limited to using his former players as assistants. With the Olympic gig going into its sixth year, I am sure the money is absolutely super for Duke assistants and he can hire anyone he wants

FWIW, here's my view of Duke basketball: As CEO of the universe and all things Duke, I have arranged for Mike Krzyzewski to coach my favorite team. I evaluate his record every so often, and I continue to believe he is the best coach in college basketball. And I am not inclined to wade in and second-guess personnel matters about assistant coaches or playing time for players. Like most fans, however, I want to see more PT for the freshman, just because I want to see them play.

There are others, who prefer to be kibitzers and view their activity, not truly as a way to affect actual decisions on the Duke team, but as a way of passing the time. There is a room for all kinds in the Duke universe, but other participants get profoundly tired of the same old topics, such as, "How can a little guy like Wojo coach seven footers?." Throatybeard, one of the masters of the universe, even posted a handy index (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3217)for topics covered all too frequently.

sagegrouse

jafarr1
02-23-2010, 12:37 PM
By your example bigs can coach guards. So then who would gaurds coach?

Here's a thought: maybe former players should coach who they're best at coaching.

Look down the resumes of college football coaches. Most assistants are former players. Most coach a variety of different positions over time. Nobody thinks twice about it. Why? Because there's no rule that says that you need to be a former LB to coach LBs. Sure, it might give a coach a leg up in understanding the position, but a good coach can coach any position.

I have no problem with people who don't think Wojo can develop big men, but I have have a big problem with people who don't think Wojo can develop big men specifically because he played point guard. It's about as relevant as his being Polish.

CDu
02-23-2010, 01:09 PM
I have no problem with people who don't think Wojo can develop big men, but I have have a big problem with people who don't think Wojo can develop big men specifically because he played point guard. It's about as relevant as his being Polish.

Agreed. Wojo may or may not be a good big man's coach. I don't get the chance to see what he does in practice, so I am in no position to evaluate that. But his height and the position he played have no specific effect on his ability to coach big men.

Azdukefan
02-23-2010, 01:11 PM
Strictly as an aside, I'm so high on Wojo that I think he'll be our next head coach.

I hope I die (tongue and cheek obviously) before we have to hire another coach. However, if that really does happen in my lifetime (i will be 30 in April), I have already said the best hire available to us is none other than Jeff Capel. He has proven he can win with dignity and recruit at high level (both are necessary in following the footsteps of what I deem as the greatest coach in any sport............EVER).

allenmurray
02-23-2010, 01:16 PM
I hope I die (tongue and cheek obviously) before we have to hire another coach. However, if that really does happen in my lifetime (i will be 30 in April), I have already said the best hire available to us is none other than Jeff Capel. He has proven he can win with dignity and recruit at high level (both are necessary in following the footsteps of what I deem as the greatest coach in any sport............EVER).

I like Capel a lot. JD hasn't had enough time at Stanford yet to know if he will be as successful with his own program as is Capel.

Collins and Wojo seem to have equal status at Duke rightnow. If Collins leaves to go be a head coach, Wojo will be the "real" senior associate head coach (as was Dawkins - right now Collins and Wojo both have that title and it seems to be a two-headed monstor). Then we'll have a different feel for Wojo.

Jeffrey
02-23-2010, 02:44 PM
I hope I die (tongue and cheek obviously) before we have to hire another coach. However, if that really does happen in my lifetime (i will be 30 in April), I have already said the best hire available to us is none other than Jeff Capel. He has proven he can win with dignity and recruit at high level (both are necessary in following the footsteps of what I deem as the greatest coach in any sport............EVER).

Capel is a very logical prediction! Right now, I think he's the most logical.

Honestly, I've never seen anyone else on this board predict Wojo. At least, not yet. Of course, the way these things seem to work is, if Wojo does get the position, then most people would have seen it coming for years. Probably, long before I did. :D

Newton_14
03-01-2010, 10:06 PM
I caught Coach K on the radio today doing the daily DBR with Bob Harris. They recapped last night's game.

Coach was real pleased with the overall team play last night and noted the high level of play from Jon and Kyle.

But he also had praise for Mason, Miles, and Andre. He felt that all 3 had really positive games and said he was especially pleased with the defense of all three, and the rebounding of Miles. He said they made good contributions on offense but was happier (of course) with their defense. He felt all 3 played much better defense including be in the right places at the right time. He said he is hoping all 3 can build on that and give the team a much needed boost down the stretch.

Good stuff. Let's hope these guys can take their games up a notch and make this team even stronger.

Richard Berg
03-01-2010, 10:19 PM
On the original subject: Mason did have one ugly looking reach-in after missing his chance for an O-rebound. However, he wasn't whistled, and the UVA player bobbled it out of bounds for a forced turnover. Nice result...but I hope he doesn't get the wrong idea.

NSDukeFan
03-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I thought we generally (no pun intended Mr. Vasquez) played pretty well last night and have no concerns about our effort, except for one play. I can't remember who was dribbling up the court for Maryland (a short guard, maybe Hayes, or Bowie) on a one on one break vs. Mason. Instead of trying to move his feet to get in position to try to stop him, Mason let the guard run by him to time it for a block. I like Mason a lot and look forward to him to continue to improve and develop this year and hopefully for three more exciting years, but that was my least favorite play of the game.

CDu
03-04-2010, 11:06 AM
I thought we generally (no pun intended Mr. Vasquez) played pretty well last night and have no concerns about our effort, except for one play. I can't remember who was dribbling up the court for Maryland (a short guard, maybe Hayes, or Bowie) on a one on one break vs. Mason. Instead of trying to move his feet to get in position to try to stop him, Mason let the guard run by him to time it for a block. I like Mason a lot and look forward to him to continue to improve and develop this year and hopefully for three more exciting years, but that was my least favorite play of the game.

I remember that play as well. It was a bad decision. There's no reason he couldn't have gotten himself in position to defend the shot and alter the guard's path to the basket.

Richard Berg
03-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Mason also had a "classic" reach-in-after-OR-attempt foul in the first half, if memory serves.

Richard Berg
03-04-2010, 01:51 PM
Would you trade the Plumlee brothers for the Wear twins? I wouldn't.

greybeard
03-04-2010, 01:57 PM
Bilas said last night that the coaches have said that the Bigs are doing exactly what the coaches want them to on offense--set screens, then set some more screens, and then go to the offensive glass. There is no inside scoring role expected from Duke's Bigs; no pick and roll, no pick and pop, no hi-low. You set a screen, the dribbler comes off, you go to the next option to set another screen for the dribbler to have another of the big 3 to kick to.

Lance has been given the option to shoot a mid range jumper, presumably off a called play. He gets one or two a game. That's the list.

This business of blaming the Bigs for their lack of offensive production should stop! By the way, if you cannot hurt the other guy on offense, it empowers them on the other end. That's the way the game works from 6th grade on up.

K and his minions have made a decision that has produced great results and one has to accept the downside. Or not. Only do not blame the players for what is outside their control!