Lost: The Substitute

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Now, I could be wrong but it looks like the UNC game is coming on in place of LOST according to my guide... WtF?

[DukeUsul]

Here in Durham on DirecTV I appear to be getting LOST.

UNC game is on Raycom (CBS here in the Triangle). LOST is on ABC. Is ABC your local Raycom affiliate?

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I'm in Wilm with TWC, not really sure I found it on channelsurfing.net.

[snowdenscold]

Sooooo.....

Did Jacob touch Kate? I'd have to go back and rewatch, but somebody probably already knows. How come she doesn't have a # ?

And did Jacob actually touch Sawyer? It looked like they both held the same pen together - not sure if that counts or not.



Anyway, so obvoiusly we saw some more black/white backgammon type reference w/ the scale. Now who thinks Flocke is actually telling Sawyer the truth? Seems doubtful. Although interesting to puruse, I feel it would diminish too much of what's been invested in the show (especially by the audience) up to now if it was all for nothing and they could just walk away.

[dcarp23]

Anyway, so obvoiusly we saw some more black/white backgammon type reference w/ the scale. Now who thinks Flocke is actually telling Sawyer the truth?.

I'm not sure that Flocke is necessarily telling the truth or telling a lie. I kind of view him and Jacob like Magneto and Dr. X-one isn't necessarily bad and they are actually friends, but they just have such divergent views on the way the world works that they end up at odds with one another. I think Flocke might just be tired of the island and disagreed with Jacob as to its purpose, and getting rid of Jacob was his only way to get out.

[El_Diablo]

Sooooo.....

Did Jacob touch Kate? I'd have to go back and rewatch, but somebody probably already knows. How come she doesn't have a # ?

Yes, he touched her on the nose.

[JG Nothing]

I think Flocke might just be tired of the island and disagreed with Jacob as to its purpose, and getting rid of Jacob was his only way to get out.

I think getting rid of Jacob is the first step. Flocke also has to eliminate all the "candidates" (intended to replace Jacob?) before he can leave the island. Some have speculated that the very last scene of the finale will be Flocke and one of the other Lostaways (Jack?) repeating the MIB/Jacob beach encounter. Tonight's episode lends credence to that theory.

[alteran]

Second reference to "The Rules" tonight (afaik). The first was when Keamy killed Ben's daughter-- Ben said something about that being against the rules.

The vision/child Jacob referenced that killing Jacob was against the rules. Not sure what it means, but Flocke didn't seem full of confidence during that little interlude.

On another note, it's very, very clear that the Losties lives are tied together, and that the LAX timeline is not an unmitigated disaster.

[snowdenscold]

The vision/child Jacob referenced that killing Jacob was against the rules. Not sure what it means, but Floke didn't seem full of confidence during that little interlude.

Was he talking about Jacob, Sawyer, or Richard? It wasn't clear to me.

[alteran]

Was he talking about Jacob, Sawyer, or Richard? It wasn't clear to me.

I thought he explicitly said Jacob. Something like. "You killed Jacob... that's against The Rules!"

But I may be mistaken.

[JG Nothing]

Was he talking about Jacob, Sawyer, or Richard? It wasn't clear to me.

I assumed he was talking about Sawyer at the time, but maybe it was Jacob or Richard.

[El_Diablo]

I assumed he was talking about Sawyer at the time, but maybe it was Jacob or Richard.

I think the kid said "You can't kill him. You know it's against the rules." I think he was referring to either Sawyer or Dogan.

Since apparently the Temple is going into lockdown, that may be the next target, and Dogan is the leader there. And weren't there two kids in the Temple?

[A-Tex Devil]

Has anyone seen a screen cap showing all the names that aren't crossed out?

We saw: 23-SHEPHARD, 8- REYES, 16-JARRAH, 42-KWON, 4-LOCKE (now crossed out), 15-FORD. That covers all the "numbers".

Did we see any of the other names on the wall marked out? This doesn't correllate at all with who got zapped back into time last season (Kate (no name), Jack, Hurley, Sayid) and who didn't (Sun, Locke's body).

[Pacer]

Lostopedia has a big list of crossed out names that were spotted.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I think the kid said "You can't kill him. You know it's against the rules." I think he was referring to either Sawyer or Dogan.

Since apparently the Temple is going into lockdown, that may be the next target, and Dogan is the leader there. And weren't there two kids in the Temple?

I thought that he was referring to Jacob... and now FLOCKE is worried that there may be repercussions for his actions since he broke the rules (even if not directly). Or perhaps Jacob may still be connected with the island somehow and his presence is not completely gone (he did still communicate with Hurley, and we now know it could not have been FLOCKE as it was mentioned he is "stuck" in Locke's body when he's not in smoke form).

Also thinking back to the season intro... and FLOCKE's comments about how the island doesn't need a protector...

Is the fact the island sunk and was destroyed proof that the island does in fact need a protector? Is it possible that Jacob knew what was coming and already chose a protector of the island?

Do we also know for sure that FLOCKE needs to kill all of the candidates in order to leave? Is/Was Faraday's mom (Eloise) helping FLOCKE escape by having them put Locke's body in the coffin to return?

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

OK, was I the only one that was upset by the pop-up video version of who Jacob touched? I don't remember Lost ever doing this sort of editing to show the viewer what the characters were referencing? It seemed dumbed down like the recap shows they have been showing before the season started. What's up with that?

As for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good but not great.

I liked that Sawyer knew that Locke wasn't Locke. It just shows how good her is at reading people, a nice touch.

That Flocke and Locke have both said the same line, "you can't tell me what I can't do" is interesting. Both seem to have issues with a loss of power or control. It seems that Flocke is not as strong as he would like to pretend.

[Pacer]

I thought that he was referring to Jacob... and now FLOCKE is worried that there may be repercussions for his actions since he broke the rules (even if not directly).

I thought he was referring to Sawyer... some admonishment reminding FLocke that you can't kill people that the other side has recruited or anointed.

This ties in to Widmore/Ben's conversation long ago in Widmore's flat that they each knew they couldn't kill each other.

[Jarhead]

I have questions that seem to have been set aside here. What about the three year time lag in the LA X parallel? Does it make a difference if we ignore the fact that the failure to crash would have happened three years ago? It seems to me that we are discussing these episodes as if there in no time lag. Am I missing something?

[Pacer]

I have questions that seem to have been set aside here. What about the three year time lag in the LA X parallel? Does it make a difference if we ignore the fact that the failure to crash would have happened three years ago? It seems to me that we are discussing these episodes as if there in no time lag. Am I missing something?

I'm not sure I see the relevance. They are showing an alternate timeline... I am not watching this and thinking that we are watching similar points on the two timelines...

With Kate's timeline, we know where they are in time because we saw her get off the plane, etc... With Locke we have the same because of the reference to the trip he took and getting fired.

I never assumed that the events depicted in an episode were to be treated as direct substitutes for each other... and I don't think they are.

Am I addressing your concern?

[Jarhead]

I'm not sure I see the relevance. They are showing an alternate timeline... I am not watching this and thinking that we are watching similar points on the two timelines...

With Kate's timeline, we know where they are in time because we saw her get off the plane, etc... With Locke we have the same because of the reference to the trip he took and getting fired.

I never assumed that the events depicted in an episode were to be treated as direct substitutes for each other... and I don't think they are.

Am I addressing your concern?
Not quite. Everything in lost seems to have significance. If this parallel is to continue until the final episode this three year gap will eventually need an answer. If it doesn't continue then why have it? What can the answer be?

[JasonEvans]

I assumed he was talking about Sawyer at the time, but maybe it was Jacob or Richard.

It sounded pretty clearly to me like the young Jacob (that is what we are assuming he was, right?) was telling Flocke that he could not kill Sawyer. He said, "you cannot kill him." It was not clear who the "him" was, but it sure seemed to me like it was Sawyer.

I love that Sawyer saw the young Jacob but Richard did not.

Interesting that Kate's name was not on Jacob's list. I think Jacob was keeping Kate secret from Flocke. When everyone else has been eliminated in some way, Kate will be the one who foils Flocke's plans or something like that.

It actually felt like we were beginning to get some answers last night. Not a lot, but we got hints of what is going on. I like that and it was much less frustrating than the wasted episode last week.

In Locke's flashsideways, I was intrigued that he broke his connection with Jack. I had figured these folks lives would become intertwined, but that may not be the case.

By the way, the annoying woman at the temp agency in the sideflash was someone we have seen before. Apparently, she was the same woman (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lynn_Karnoff)who was the fortune teller in one of Hurley's season 3 flashbacks where he was trying to get rid of the "cursed" numbers. Interesting.

--Jason "starting to pick up steam... Flocke is recruiting... hmmm" Evans

[JasonEvans]

OK, was I the only one that was upset by the pop-up video version of who Jacob touched? I don't remember Lost ever doing this sort of editing to show the viewer what the characters were referencing? It seemed dumbed down like the recap shows they have been showing before the season started. What's up with that?

Those of us who obssess over the show know that Jacob "touched" each of those people in his encounters with them. But, if you are just a casual observer of Lost, you may not have noticed that when it first happened. I think it was quite intentional that the pop-ups showed the moment where Jacob touches each of the "candidates."

By the way, Flocke said Jacob was pushing these people to the Island. It is worth noting that both Sayid and Hurley had encounters with Jacob after they had left the island. It is true that those encounters helped push Hurley and Sayid to get on the Ajira flight and come back, but they first arrived on the island with no help from Jacob at all.

I also find it hard to believe that Jacob handing Jack a candy bar or giving his blessing to Sun and Jin made much of an impact on their lives. His interactions with Locke, Sayid, and Kate were at huge moments and could have a lasting impact, but the others wre fairly meaningless times. In other words, I think Flocke is lying about what Jacob was doing.

--Jason "did it drive anyone else crazy when Flocke told Sawyer he was going to answer Sawyer's questions? The writers are toying with us, I tell ya!!" Evans

[Jarhead]

It sounded pretty clearly to me like the young Jacob (that is what we are assuming he was, right?) was telling Flocke that he could not kill Sawyer. He said, "you cannot kill him." It was not clear who the "him" was, but it sure seemed to me like it was Sawyer.

I love that Sawyer saw the young Jacob but Richard did not.

Interesting that Kate's name was not on Jacob's list. I think Jacob was keeping Kate secret from Flocke. When everyone else has been eliminated in some way, Kate will be the one who foils Flocke's plans or something like that.

It actually felt like we were beginning to get some answers last night. Not a lot, but we got hints of what is going on. I like that and it was much less frustrating than the wasted episode last week.

In Locke's flashsideways, I was intrigued that he broke his connection with Jack. I had figured these folks lives would become intertwined, but that may not be the case.

By the way, the annoying woman at the temp agency in the sideflash was someone we have seen before. Apparently, she was the same woman (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lynn_Karnoff)who was the fortune teller in one of Hurley's season 3 flashbacks where he was trying to get rid of the "cursed" numbers. Interesting.

--Jason "starting to pick up steam... Flocke is recruiting... hmmm" Evans
One thing I noticed in the previews for next week's episode was a suggestion that the questions may be diminishing, and there would be more answers. I forget the words used, and I hope I understood it correctly.

[IamMatt'sUserName]

I read this theory elsewhere - Thoughts?

The flash sideways incidents are actually the way the story ends for our Losties. That altered timeline is a direct result of whatever we will see play out on the island this season.

Whatever they do, it will make it so the plane never crashed....only it will have a much wider impact on the past/future...a ripple effect if you will.

Our Losties lives will be similar, but different in many ways...and they will still be impacted in some fashion by the people who they encountered on the island. This is a profound exploration of FATE and attempts at altering ones DESTINY.

[A-Tex Devil]

So did anyone notice Ellen (Otherwise known as Peg Bundy or Gemma Teller Morrow) mention Locke's dad coming to the wedding? (did I miss it above?).

I thought that was interesting, especially since he's paralyzed (and how we understood him to get paralyzed) and it didn't mention his mom. So how did he get paralyzed in this alternate universe and is this "dad" that is mentioned his real dad, aka the real Sawyer?

I loved the set up at the beginning. Poor old miserable Locke laying on the grass with the sprinklers on. Then, when i expect some depressing self-pitying crying or something, Ellen comes out and they smile like it's no biggie and something to laugh about.

Still missing from the flash-sidewayseseses who were on original airplane - Ana Lucia, Eko, Nikki, Paulo (none of whom I think we'll see), Michael, Walt, Libby, the dude mistaken for an "other" from the tail section, Shannon (although that was explained), Christian's body (also kinda explained)... anyone else?

Characters missing from flash-sidewayseseses who were on island but not on plane who we might see (or I'd like to see in the alternate timeline in some fashion): Penny, Widmore, Juliet, Miles, Charlotte, Faraday, Faraday's mom, Frank Lapidus, Keamy, Horace, Lieutenant Daniels (can't remember lost name), Richard, Uncle Rico/Ben's dad.

[JasonEvans]

One thing I noticed in the previews for next week's episode was a suggestion that the questions may be diminishing, and there would be more answers. I forget the words used, and I hope I understood it correctly.

Are you actually trusting the ABC Promo Department?

I think they told us we would begin getting answers midway through season one ;)

-Jason "I think we will start getting real answers in about 8 episodes" Evans

[A-Tex Devil]

I read this theory elsewhere - Thoughts?

The flash sideways incidents are actually the way the story ends for our Losties. That altered timeline is a direct result of whatever we will see play out on the island this season.

Whatever they do, it will make it so the plane never crashed....only it will have a much wider impact on the past/future...a ripple effect if you will.

Our Losties lives will be similar, but different in many ways...and they will still be impacted in some fashion by the people who they encountered on the island. This is a profound exploration of FATE and attempts at altering ones DESTINY.

Unless it's done very tightly and crisply where this is obvious, I probably won't like it if this is the case. Also, so many theories out there get into physics, wave theory, etc. which can't possibly be the broader explanation because 80% of the audience will be like "Huh?" if they try to explain that away or, worse, assume people will get it.

At this point, you can't really deal with Jacob, the man in black, and Richard with the wider audience without some kind of mystical/ theological/ mythological explanation, which is fine by me if the story makes sense.

I like where the idea is going about the man in black being wrong about the island's need for protection, and the alternate timeline is what happens when the island isn't protected. Although, if this is the case, the island being underwater needs to have some kind of negative impact on the world as a whole so that the island itself has some significance.

[Pacer]

I think the divergence point for the two timelines is well before the flight, but they started showing us the sideways timeline at the time of the flight like they started telling the main story at the time of the flight... the main storyline has progressed 3 years... but that doesn't necessitate that the sideways storyline be rushed up 3 years... I suspect the sideways storyline won't continue to be told all season... maybe 4-6 more episodes... but that's just a guess.

[JasonEvans]

Unless it's done very tightly and crisply where this is obvious, I probably won't like it if this is the case. Also, so many theories out there get into physics, wave theory, etc. which can't possibly be the broader explanation because 80% of the audience will be like "Huh?" if they try to explain that away or, worse, assume people will get it.

At this point, you can't really deal with Jacob, the man in black, and Richard with the wider audience without some kind of mystical/ theological/ mythological explanation, which is fine by me if the story makes sense.

It is worth noting that (supposedly) the theory of what the island is and how all this works has been present for 6 YEARS since Damon and JJ first presented it to the head honchos at ABC. Supposedly, they had the explanation for what is happening on the island on paper at that time.

So, the explanation had better be fairly easy to grasp and simple to explain.

--Jason "I am sure the producers know the audience needs a satisfactory ending" Evans

[ncexnyc]

So much for us nevering seeing the numbers again, as someone suggested a week or two ago.

I really don't believe Flocke is lying about Jacob being responsible for bringing these people to the island and I'm basing that on the beach scene where Flocke and Jacob are watching the Black Rock approach. For whatever reason Jacob brings people to the island and events continuely repeat themselves over and over.

The scene with the scale was important, there was always a balance. Flocke throwing the white stone away shows that the equilibrium no longer exists.

I'm not sure why these, "Candidates" would be considered replacements for Jacob. It seems Flocke and Jacob are opposites so wouldn't Flocke have a potential replacement?

In the Flashbacks all our characters were connected and now in the sideways flashes they are. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Boone's company was actually involved with Locke's wedding.

The kids were very important during the first season. A lot of the plot centered around Walt and Aaron and I don't think we can write that off. I actually thought that the young boy running around was Aaron, not some mini Jacob.

We had Alex/ Rousseau tied to Ben/Widmore. Were these all people who were brought to the island one way or another at an earlier time by Jacob?

If the young boy is indeed Aaron would that be a continuation of the theme?
With Aaron/Claire being connected to Jack/Sawyer. Since there was mention of each side recruiting, is that what has happened to each group brought to the island?

Answers next week, yeah right. For every question answered, we'll get two new questions.:D

[ncexnyc]

It is worth noting that (supposedly) the theory of what the island is and how all this works has been present for 6 YEARS since Damon and JJ first presented it to the head honchos at ABC. Supposedly, they had the explanation for what is happening on the island on paper at that time.

So, the explanation had better be fairly easy to grasp and simple to explain.

--Jason "I am sure the producers know the audience needs a satisfactory ending" Evans

I'm glad you used the word "supposedly", as from the very start of this show, they've been flying by the seats of their pants.
Jack was supposed to die in the pilot. Characters being cut due to outside events. Michael Emerson's role being expanded due to his ability to portray Ben, the list goes on and on.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Still missing from the flash-sidewayseseses who were on original airplane - Ana Lucia, Eko, Nikki, Paulo (none of whom I think we'll see), Michael, Walt, Libby, the dude mistaken for an "other" from the tail section, Shannon (although that was explained), Christian's body (also kinda explained)... anyone else?

Characters missing from flash-sidewayseseses who were on island but not on plane who we might see (or I'd like to see in the alternate timeline in some fashion): Penny, Widmore, Juliet, Miles, Charlotte, Faraday, Faraday's mom, Frank Lapidus, Keamy, Horace, Lieutenant Daniels (can't remember lost name), Richard, Uncle Rico/Ben's dad.

Yes, but I don't think this Flight 815 was the same 815 from the first show, if that makes any sense. We already know it is 3 years in the future (screenshot of Claire's sonogram) of when the original storyline flight was supposed to land. It makes sense that not all of the same people from the original flight including the Tailies would have been on this sideways flash flight 815.

[DukeUsul]

I read this theory elsewhere - Thoughts?

The flash sideways incidents are actually the way the story ends for our Losties. That altered timeline is a direct result of whatever we will see play out on the island this season.

Whatever they do, it will make it so the plane never crashed....only it will have a much wider impact on the past/future...a ripple effect if you will.

Our Losties lives will be similar, but different in many ways...and they will still be impacted in some fashion by the people who they encountered on the island. This is a profound exploration of FATE and attempts at altering ones DESTINY.

I will profoundly explore my hatred of the producers if the show ends up in such a disappointing fashion. They MUST NOT throw away all that we've become invested in and just wave their hands and say "no that all didn't really happen, this other thing over here, this is what really happened."

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Those of us who obssess over the show know that Jacob "touched" each of those people in his encounters with them. But, if you are just a casual observer of Lost, you may not have noticed that when it first happened. I think it was quite intentional that the pop-ups showed the moment where Jacob touches each of the "candidates."

I agree, but it's the first time they've done this. There are much more confusing parts of the show that they never did this sort of "hey remember when" treatment for. Anyways, I may just be grumpy.

Is Kate not a candidate?

I forget who was on Ben's list, does it match up with those with numbers?

[DukeUsul]

It's entirely possible that the candidate Kwon could be Jin and Sun's daughter. I find it unlikely. But still something to remember.

[JasonEvans]

I'm glad you used the word "supposedly", as from the very start of this show, they've been flying by the seats of their pants.
Jack was supposed to die in the pilot. Characters being cut due to outside events. Michael Emerson's role being expanded due to his ability to portray Ben, the list goes on and on.

Oh, I am clear that they have made adjustments on the fly -- especially where it concerns characters that have "clicked" with the audience or outside factors that have impacted actor's ability to be on the show. I never throught otherwise.

However, I have long operated under the belief that the overall story of "What is the Island and what are these people doing here" is something they had in place from the start and something to which they have not done (much) revision.

That is the ground upon which my faith in the show is built. It better not be wrong!!

--Jason "I hated mundane Ben the teacher... I want more about alt-Ben!" Evans

[JasonEvans]

--Jason "I hated mundane Ben the teacher... I want more about alt-Ben!" Evans

By the way, the whole, "don't I know you from somewhere" vibe that we were getting on the alt-Oceanic 815 is pretty much gone at this point. Locke does not share a knowing glance or glimmer of recognition with Rose or with Ben. I guess they have dropped that or it is something that only affects Jack.

--Jason "I want to see alt-Locke get promoted as a teacher and alt-Ben kill him out of jealousy" Evans

[snowdenscold]

By the way, the whole, "don't I know you from somewhere" vibe that we were getting on the alt-Oceanic 815 is pretty much gone at this point. Locke does not share a knowing glance or glimmer of recognition with Rose or with Ben. I guess they have dropped that or it is something that only affects Jack.


Was I just imagining things or did i seem like Locke gave a somewhat-knowing smile towards Ben at the very end of that scene?

[A-Tex Devil]

Yes, but I don't think this Flight 815 was the same 815 from the first show, if that makes any sense. We already know it is 3 years in the future (screenshot of Claire's sonogram) of when the original storyline flight was supposed to land. It makes sense that not all of the same people from the original flight including the Tailies would have been on this sideways flash flight 815.

You are half right. Unless it's a mistake, the date of Claire's sonogram (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:ClaireWhatKateDoes.png) shows that the flight was indeed on a different date than the original flight 815, which was 9/22/2004. But it is still in 2004.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

You are half right. Unless it's a mistake, the date of Claire's sonogram (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:ClaireWhatKateDoes.png) shows that the flight was indeed on a different date than the original flight 815, which was 9/22/2004. But it is still in 2004.

Yes, my bad. Meant weeks, not years. And there's no way that's an oversight.

I like the theories about the ghostly kid in the jungle. Aaron seems more plausible than little-Jacob however.

[snowdenscold]

I like the theories about the ghostly kid in the jungle. Aaron seems more plausible than little-Jacob however.


How did Aaron gain like 4 years and get trasnported to the island overnight?

[GDT]

They MUST NOT throw away all that we've become invested in and just wave their hands and say "no that all didn't really happen, this other thing over here, this is what really happened."

But if the alt timeline is the future and is the result of what's happening on island this season, then it's the result of what really happened, not something that never happened. Even if they don't remember it happening.

OK, no more Sam Adams Imperial Ale for me.

I do see your point (I think), but that's not necessarily the only way to look at it (if even this is the actual answer). But a lot of people will certainly agree with you.

[Jarhead]

But if the alt timeline is the future and is the result of what's happening on island this season, then it's the result of what really happened, not something that never happened. Even if they don't remember it happening.

OK, no more Sam Adams Imperial Ale for me.

I do see your point (I think), but that's not necessarily the only way to look at it (if even this is the actual answer). But a lot of people will certainly agree with you.

Wait a minute, how did we get to the point that the parallel time line is the future? It was supposed to be what would happen if the original flight didn't crash, I thought. Since the people on the island are supposed to be in the year 2007, three years hence, that would place the didn't crash flight in 2004. Just where are they going with this, either way?

[airowe]

Regarding Kate as a candidate, my theory is that when Jacob bought the lunchbox for her, he told her she wasn't going to be bad anymore. Maybe when she killed her StepDad, she couldn't be a candidate anymore.

I don't know though because Flocke said that Jacob made decisions for the candidates so their life paths would bring them to the island. A major theme throughout the show has obviously been Free Will vs Destiny. Maybe Free Will won over destiny in that situation or maybe Flocke was just BSing.

[alteran]

Regarding Kate as a candidate, my theory is that when Jacob bought the lunchbox for her, he told her she wasn't going to be bad anymore. Maybe when she killed her StepDad, she couldn't be a candidate anymore.

I don't know though because Flocke said that Jacob made decisions for the candidates so their life paths would bring them to the island. A major theme throughout the show has obviously been Free Will vs Destiny. Maybe Free Will won over destiny in that situation or maybe Flocke was just BSing.

I wonder if maybe there have to be two candidates-- one = Jacob, the other = Flocke. Balance and all that.

Maybe Kate's fate is already determined as New Flocke. I think she deserves some sort consequence for subjecting us to Sawyer-or-Jack for 6 years.

[alteran]

One other thing-- I think on something this important, it's telling that there is no reference to Kate on the wall that we see. This scene is clearly the kind of thing that Lost fanatics pour over, looking for clues.

And the producers know that.

The fact that there's no Austen(sp?) -- not as a candidate, not as a disqualified candidate, but simply missing -- is something that is going to come up.

[GDT]

Wait a minute, how did we get to the point that the parallel time line is the future?

Sorry, I was responding to the speculation that the LA timeline was something that happened as a result of the current on-island escapades with fake Locke and everybody. Since I'm probably not making sense anyway, just disregard it.

[Wander]

How did Aaron gain like 4 years and get trasnported to the island overnight?

Actually, I bet that Aaron is on the island. Not because I see any hard evidence of it in the show, but because I think he has to be there from a writing/storytelling perspective. He's almost certainly an important piece in the story's overall plot/mythology, and it just wouldn't make much sense for him to never reappear again in the on-island timeline.

With that said, I think the little kid is neither Jacob nor Aaron. I think he is the island itself.

[BlueDevilBaby]

According to cnn.com, Shannon and Nadia will return at some point.

[JasonEvans]

According to cnn.com, Shannon and Nadia will return at some point.

The best scene ever... I mean ever...


Kate is in the cab at the airport. She orders the cabbie at gunpoint to step on it! He almost runs over Artz, who yells at them a bit. Kate jabs the gun into the Cabbie's head as a terrified Clarie looks on. "Go or you die," Kate says and she clearly means it.

The camera cuts to the cabbie's foot and the gas pedal. He slams down on it and the car leaps forward...

...At just that moment, two people who are arguing step off the curb and into the street. They look up as the cab speeds toward them and recoil in horror. The next moment we see the couple bouncing off the front hood of the cab and being hurled into the air. They hit the ground, bloodied and unmoving. They are clearly dead.

Artz runs to their side and flips the man over. It is Paulo. His eyes are open and unseeing. Artz's foot brushes against the woman, Niki, whose lifeless body rolls over to reveal a spilled pouch of stolen diamonds. Artz quickly shoves some diamonds into his pocket and screams for help.

C'mon people, tell me that would not be DA BOMB!

--Jason "we need to have more fun in the alt-timeline ;) " Evans

[johnb]

That kid really seemed like a junior Jacob.

This has probably been covered/guessed before on this site, but, given Lost's interest in secret parents, it would certainly be possible that Aaron=Jacob and that the Losties were brought to the island because they were (essentially) parentless and potentially the next 2 guys on the beach.

Kate was eliminated from contention presumably because she was a killer, like Echo, but it also seems possible that Kate could be referred to by a different last name (wasn't she called by a different last night in the parallel universe?) and so she could possibly be on the cave wall by some other name, especially if Jacob were trying to hide her identity.

[Bostondevil]

Remember, Kate's dad isn't really her dad. What was her stepdad's name? I don't think it's Austin.

[Duvall]

Kate was eliminated from contention presumably because she was a killer, like Echo, but it also seems possible that Kate could be referred to by a different last name (wasn't she called by a different last night in the parallel universe?) and so she could possibly be on the cave wall by some other name, especially if Jacob were trying to hide her identity.

I don't quite get the argument that Kate was eliminated because she was a killer. Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, Jin, Sun and Hurley have all killed, and Sawyer and Sayid are murderers. Why would Kate be different?

[DukeUsul]

Are they "candidates" to be the one who is the eponymous "substitute?" Is the substitute the one to replace Jacob?

[El_Diablo]

If the alternate LAX timeline is the result of the bomb going off, then Ben the Teacher--who was a child on the island at the time the bomb went off--somehow got off the island afterwards. So he would know about the existence of the island and possibly even what caused it to become submerged.

Maybe this Ben will be more forthcoming than the old Ben? :confused:

[JasonEvans]

If the alternate LAX timeline is the result of the bomb going off, then Ben the Teacher--who was a child on the island at the time the bomb went off--somehow got off the island afterwards. So he would know about the existence of the island and possibly even what caused it to become submerged.

Maybe this Ben will be more forthcoming than the old Ben? :confused:

Hmmmm. Good point. The fact that Ben exists in both timelines means the bomb does not sink the Island. Whenever the Island sinks, it is after Ben has left.

--Jason "either that or the Writers/Producers overlooked this detail" Evans

[juise]

I had the exact same thought about Ben today and decided to come to this thread to post the question. It was funny that someone else posted earlier this morning. I went to Lostpedia to see if this was covered, but it's only in the theories section. I remembered that they had been evacuating the island when the bomb was detonated, but I can't see definitively that he left on a sub.

[snowdenscold]

I had the exact same thought about Ben today and decided to come to this thread to post the question. It was funny that someone else posted earlier this morning. I went to Lostpedia to see if this was covered, but it's only in the theories section. I remembered that they had been evacuating the island when the bomb was detonated, but I can't see definitively that he left on a sub.

Wouldn't he have been in The Temple when the bomb would have went off?

[El_Diablo]

Wouldn't he have been in The Temple when the bomb would have went off?

That would be my guess. He was probably still recovering from the "waterboarding"...

[juise]

Wouldn't he have been in The Temple when the bomb would have went off?

The last we saw young Ben was in episode 12 ("Dead is Dead") and he was being told that he would be taken back to DHARMA. A day or two later was "the incident." It's hard to say where young Ben was, but I think he was out of the temple at that point.

[JasonEvans]

Are they "candidates" to be the one who is the eponymous "substitute?" Is the substitute the one to replace Jacob?

I think The Substitute in the title was talking about Locke. In the alt-timeline, he seems to find happiness as a Substitute teacher. In the real timeline, Flocke is substituting for him.

--Jason "I don't read too much into episode titles, I don't think they tell us all that much" Evans

[JasonEvans]

You wanna know what drives me crazy? When chracters on the show don't ask questions just because the show wants to keep the audience in the dark.

The latest example of this came in the most recent episode.

They are burrying Locke's body and Ben asks Ilana why the Man in Black can't just change form into someone else. She replies that he is now trapped in his John Locke form.

AND NO ONE ASKS HER WHY!!?!?!?!? No one asks her for an explanation. No one even says, "hey lady, how do you know so much about this dude?" COME ON!??!?!?!! THIS IS TORTURE!!

As an aside, I think a big moment in this episode was Ilana gathering Jacob's ashes and putting them in a bag. Well, she gathered ashes from the fire that Jacob had burned in. There is no way to know if they were Jacob's ashes or the ashes from a piece of random driftwood that happened to be in the fire when Jacob was consumed. Most likely, they are a combination of Jacob and the driftwood ;)

--Jason "I know this stuff is all par for the course on Lost, but it is still damn frustrating" Evans

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I missed the episode on Tuesday night and only watched it last night upon my return home, so I deftly avoided reading any of this thread until post viewing. I really enjoyed the episode, thinking I was moving towards some answers. I don't think we got any, but still felt satisfaction and anticipation. I even enjoyed the flash-sideways action - good, benevolent Hugo, the laughing Locke when he was getting "sprinklered", etc.

Hey BD - what do you think? Aren't you watching in real time this season?

[juise]

I think The Substitute in the title was talking about Locke. In the alt-timeline, he seems to find happiness as a Substitute teacher.

This is how I interpreted the title as well.

[Icarus09]

This is how I interpreted the title as well.

It refers to Locke the Substitute teacher but also Locke's adversary who is inhabiting Locke's body.

[juise]

It refers to Locke the Substitute teacher but also Locke's adversary who is inhabiting Locke's body.

Jacob's adversary?

[Icarus09]

Jacob's adversary?

He goes by different names on different websites. The smoke monster, MIB, etc. He's the man on the last episode of season 5 who tells Jacob on the beach that he will kill Jacob.

[Icarus09]

I read the previous juise post. Yes, Jacob's adversary.