Yet more talk on K not going to the Nets (now with more Pessah)

[kungpow84]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AhVFJJxrtnUkW5MhvAdQIle8vLYF?slug=aw-nets021210&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I don't think the Nets can lure Coach K out of Duke.

Coach K is the best coach there is!

[Lord Ash]

Didn't notice the thread on the EXACT topic below? Or were you too busy registering a new name?;)

The Nets are eying Coach K like I eye Bar Refaeli... from afar, and with no chance of anything EVER happening.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The Nets are eying Coach K like I eye Bar Refaeli... from afar, and with no chance of anything EVER happening.

I dunno - the way Leo goes through women, Bar Refaeli may need a rebound. I'd say your chances are significantly higher than K to the Nets

[slower]

Didn't notice the thread on the EXACT topic below? Or were you too busy registering a new name?;)

Kungpow84, did you not see the previously locked thread on this same topic?

Counting down to threadlock.

[davekay1971]

The most entertaining thing I heard this morning: the 'Hole fans on Charlotte sports radio this morning spinning this rumor along with a sad amount of desperation. The main points of the discussion: (1) would Coach K stick around long enough to pass Dean Smith (yes, they still haven't quite come to grips with the fact that Smith has already been surpassed...by Coach K's mentor); (2) COULD Coach K pass Dean Smith (yes, some actually think Smith's number of victories is out of K's reach); (3) how many $$$ Coach K will leave Duke for. There was no discussion whatsoever that K might actually stay at Duke, nor was there any mention that K has already turned down the Lakers and the Celtics, which makes the idea that he might jump to coach the Nets all the more ridiculous.

I was laughing my butt off driving in to work listening to this stuff.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Let me put a nail in this coffin, with Coach K's own words.



"I'm not leaving Duke," Krzyzewski said. "Whatever you hear about anything like that, I would never leave Duke until I leave coaching. Anything else that's being said would be just somebody saying stuff."


http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/41065.html?storylink=mirelated

[BlueintheFace]

Duke 85- Nets 68


...just a guess

[blazindw]

We've already closed down a thread on this. This one isn't special. We're not dealing with this now.

CLOSED.

[Starter]

I usually don't start posts, so let me know if I'm out of line in some way (sorry in advance). Yahoo posted an article speculating that the Nets' new super-rich Russian owner might get Jerry Colangelo as their team president, hoping to lure Mike Krzyzewski to coach the team.

I guess Wojnarowski makes some good points -- he likes Colangelo, they'll be in Brooklyn at some point, relationships with Team USA guys, 27 million in cap room this year, Brook Lopez and a very high lottery pick. But I just can't see this happening. They're 4-48, and they're forever the red-headed stepchild to the Knicks in this area, which I suspect won't change even in Brooklyn. And if he was going to do it, wouldn't he have done it when he was five years younger with the chance to coach Kobe? (Rhetorical question)

Thoughts?

[Starter]

I wouldn't have even brought up a rumor article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aj8ydlAzaSs_laNMJkEJEAs5nYcB?slug=aw-nets021210&prov=yhoo&type=lgns), but it leads their sports section.

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

The last guy who started this thread had it closed. Just saying...

[SilkyJ]

HAHAHAHAHA.

Wait, hold on. OK

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Coach K passed on coaching the Kobe and the lakers, but yea, he'll probably jump ship for the Nets.

Hey, its not your fault for posting the article tho, some dolt needs to get readers, but obviously no one with any type of clue thinks there is greater than a negative-infinity percent chance of this happening.

Coach K will be coaching at Duke until he retires.

[Starter]

Well, I didn't know that, and I certainly won't be offended if this one's closed. I just figured it was leading a major sports site -- even if it's speculation, I thought it to be an interesting topic. Regardless... absolutely kill it if it doesn't follow protocol of the boards.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Once again....



"I'm not leaving Duke," Krzyzewski said. "Whatever you hear about anything like that, I would never leave Duke until I leave coaching. Anything else that's being said would be just somebody saying stuff."
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...link=mirelated (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...link=mirelated)

If the mods lock this again..maybe they should sticky it...so the next guy who doesn't bother searching will see it clearly. :D

[DevilHorns]

Well, I didn't know that, and I certainly won't be offended if this one's closed. I just figured it was leading a major sports site -- even if it's speculation, I thought it to be an interesting topic. Regardless... absolutely kill it if it doesn't follow protocol of the boards.

Like your avatar btw. I watched one game of Kyrie's on ESPNU earlier in the year. He's so fast, and he sure can dish. Have you seen him play in person?

[Starter]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...link=mirelated (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/c...link=mirelated)

If the mods lock this again..maybe they should sticky it...so the next guy who doesn't bother searching will see it clearly. :D

Hey, at least I successfully posted a link! I kid, I kid. ;)


Like your avatar btw. I watched one game of Kyrie's on ESPNU earlier in the year. He's so fast, and he sure can dish. Have you seen him play in person?

I took the picture! I've been to three games, and I'm going to see him again tonight and tomorrow. Disappointed that Montrose (Hairston) can't make the PT Shootout due to the snow. I'll try to post some reviews afterward.

[Lord Ash]

The last guy who started this thread had it closed. Just saying...

The last TWO guys, actually.

Anyone who honestly believes Coach K might leave Duke to go coach the Brooklyn Nets for ANY amount of money is an idiot.

[slower]

The last TWO guys, actually.

Anyone who honestly believes Coach K might leave Duke to go coach the Brooklyn Nets for ANY amount of money is an idiot.

in 3...2...1

[Starter]

Didn't mean to rub any of you guys the wrong way, just trying to keep up on what's out there. I just find it interesting that the mainstream media has heard the same quotes we all have and still chooses to make this a topic of discussion, and I'm interested in what causes that. But... like a few of you said, this board is no place to discuss the national reputation of Duke's coach. Let's move on.

Mods... let's do this, lock it up.

[Olympic Fan]

I can't blame anybody for posting this -- it's a huge story on every ESPN update.

We all know what a crock this is. I was very worried about the Laker's bid in 2004 ... I have absolutely no worry about this one.

Look, Saturday is a celebration of Coach K's 1,000th game at Duke. There will be dozens of former players on hand to celebrate his time at Duke. I think we can be pretty sure that at some point he'll be asked about this, then he'll roll is eyes and blow it off.

BTW: I hope the Crazies sing "Happy Birthday" to K ... a cake would be nice.

[RelativeWays]

I think K stays for all the reasons we know well, but the speculation that he might would go is not as foolish as some here think.

1. If he has an NBA itch, hes running out of time to scratch.

2. His tenure with USA basketball may have strengthed his desire to work with pros

3. The college landscape has changed in large part to early departure.

4. Colangelo would be the team president, someone he greatly respects. He's have carte blanche to do what he wants.

5. Unlike the Lakers and Celts, the nets have pretty much no identity. K could establish his own pro legacy with a team like this. What expectations do Nets fans have?

6. He could theoretically have Dwayne Wade, LeBron James and John Wall in two years, he could have all three. We know Wall could be a headcase, but if he wants to be a pro with a long career, he'd follow LeBron or Wades lead.

7. Great coaches always look for new challenges. Do we really think K's Duke career needs further validation with another NC, does he he really need to be the all time wins leader? K is always going to be one of the greatest ever, not much can change that.

Again, I think he stays, like 99.9999999999% stays. But its interesting to entertain the idea.

[KandG]

I think most people here that know Coach K and the history of his dalliances with the NBA understand this rumor doesn't have much behind it, for a variety of reasons. I think the article is written more from the perspective of what a deep-pocketed owner of an incredibly struggling franchise is willing to do to make it relevant again.

From the perspective of college basketball insiders, it seems like silly wish fulfillment. From the perspective of those closer to the NBA, it probably looks like the same, but it's a window into the thought process of what kind of ambition new ownership would have. In that respect, it serves a purpose beyond baseless rumor-mongering.

Regardless, I don't understand why people who post these pieces -- from reputable news outlets -- should be attacked, and why threads should be locked down in the face of a hostile, unthinking mob so quickly. Articles that speculate baselessly on the motives of say, our coaching staff in the recruiting process or advising current players to go pro -- I can see those being treated with scorn, because there may be ulterior motives in passing judgement on the coaches or program with no hard evidence. (I only wish the posters here who criticize every element of how K allocates his time for recruiting -- including micromanaging his calendar -- could be so easily locked down)

But articles like this cast a positive light on Coach K, and if you take them for what they are, there's no reason for panic. I suppose opponents might try to use them to scare potential recruits, but I think that can easily be turned around.

[uncwdevil]

I don't understand why this topic would be off-limits.

It's a story about our head coach being reported all over the mainstream media.

Even if nobody believes it will actually happen, it seems to warrant discussion.

[FerryFor50]

I think most people here that know Coach K and the history of his dalliances with the NBA understand this rumor doesn't have much behind it, for a variety of reasons. I think the article is written more from the perspective of what a deep-pocketed owner of an incredibly struggling franchise is willing to do to make it relevant again.

From the perspective of college basketball insiders, it seems like silly wish fulfillment. From the perspective of those closer to the NBA, it probably looks like the same, but it's a window into the thought process of what kind of ambition new ownership would have. In that respect, it serves a purpose beyond baseless rumor-mongering.

Regardless, I don't understand why people who post these pieces -- from reputable news outlets -- should be attacked, and why threads should be locked down in the face of a hostile, unthinking mob so quickly. Articles that speculate baselessly on the motives of say, our coaching staff in the recruiting process or advising current players to go pro -- I can see those being treated with scorn, because there may be ulterior motives in passing judgement on the coaches or program with no hard evidence. (I only wish the posters here who criticize every element of how K allocates his time for recruiting -- including micromanaging his calendar -- could be so easily locked down)

But articles like this cast a positive light on Coach K, and if you take them for what they are, there's no reason for panic. I suppose opponents might try to use them to scare potential recruits, but I think that can easily be turned around.

Agreed. This site does tend to get a little gestapo on some things. I mean, who cares if there is a thread about this? Don't like it? Don't read it. Don't comment. Everyone's day is better.

Personally, I don't think there's a very good chance he'd go, but I could see him going if they landed Lebron and Wade. But that is a HUGE if. Wade's already said he wouldn't take a pay cut to play with Lebron.

[HateCarolina]

I agree with the overwhelming consensus that there is ZERO chance that K would leave for the piss poor Nets.

I am not sure why these threads were quashed in the past. Isn't this forum for discussing all things Duke basketball? Ric Bucher from ESPN the Magazine was just on SportsCenter (1:00 PM) discussing this same rumor, although he points out that more than likely the Nets will enter discussions with some of the big time free agents that will be available this summer to get their thoughts about who they would like to see as coach....you really got to love the NBA...so much different than the college level where players hold all of the power.

[loldevilz]

I am a huge Duke basketball fan, but I really would understand Coach K taking this job. He would probably get to coach John Wall and more importantly Lebron James, possibly the greatest basketball player ever. I think Lebron James and Coach K have formed a close connection working in USA basketball and both seem to have enormous respect for each other. Just imagine a team with Lebron James and John Wall coached by Coach K. It would be almost as awesome as anything he's done at Duke. The chance to match his accomplishments in the NBA without ruining his reputation at Duke must be a huge draw. But K still turned down the Lakers so he'll probably do the same with the Nets.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Agreed. This site does tend to get a little gestapo on some things. I mean, who cares if there is a thread about this? Don't like it? Don't read it. Don't comment. Everyone's day is better.


For those who like boards that are not monitored, or that are monitored with a much less rigorous standard, there are many other options out there.

That said, I have no problem with this thread.

[allenmurray]

Coach K has done so much for Duke that if he ever decides to leave because he wants a different challenge I fail to see how anyone could hold it against him. I'd hate it, but I'd wish him nothing but the best. On the other hand, for him to leave before passing Dean Smith on the all-time win list would be tragic.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I am a huge Duke basketball fan, but I really would understand Coach K taking this job. He would probably get to coach John Wall and more importantly Lebron James, possibly the greatest basketball player ever. I think Lebron James and Coach K have formed a close connection working in USA basketball and both seem to have enormous respect for each other. Just imagine a team with Lebron James and John Wall coached by Coach K. It would be almost as awesome as anything he's done at Duke. The chance to match his accomplishments in the NBA without ruining his reputation at Duke must be a huge draw. But K still turned down the Lakers so he'll probably do the same with the Nets.


I understand where you're coming from, but honsetly, do you think Coach K really cares about the NBA and his personal accomplishemnts? His heart is and always has been at Duke. It is a part of his family. What would he have to gain by going to coach the Nets? You look at someone like Rick Pitino or John Calipari's situation and I hope you can see the difference and why they might have some sort of interest (not saying they do). Coach K is 60+ years old and has been at Duke for 25+ years. Like I said, at this point, what would he have to gain by going there?

[RPS]

I understand where you're coming from, but honsetly, do you think Coach K really cares about the NBA and his personal accomplishemnts? His heart is and always has been at Duke. It is a part of his family. What would he have to gain by going to coach the Nets? You look at someone like Rick Pitino or John Calipari's situation and I hope you can see the difference and why they might have some sort of interest (not saying they do). Coach K is 60+ years old and has been at Duke for 25+ years. Like I said, at this point, what would he have to gain by going there?Surely we all hope that's true. However, I think the article is entirely fair and appropriate. Adrian Wojnarowski is a fine journalist (I highly recommend his book on Bob Hurley, Sr. and St. Anthony's) who is careful to distinguish what Prokhorov might like to do from what Prokhorov will be able to do -- emphasizing that getting K will be a longshot at best. It's solid journalism. Moreover, if I'm the owner of the Nets with unlimited resources and want to make a splash, the Colangelo/K idea as a precursor to getting LeBron and more is a terrific (albeit unlikely) blueprint.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

As a previous poster presented Coach K has said he's not leaving Duke to coach elsewhere. There is no reason for him to put to bed an issue he hasn't agreed to be a part of. Just because someone says someone is thinking or wanting to do something does not mean it is happening! To me that seems like a peculiar form of narcissism--because someone believes or wants something then it is so? Not. Wait until Coach K says he has changed his mind and is entertaining the thought of leaving Duke. Again, he has specifically said he is not leaving to coach elsewhere, this is his last coaching stop.

GO DUKE!

[wilko]

The nets should contact Roy.... he might go this YEAR!

[FerryFor50]

Hi,

As a previous poster presented Coach K has said he's not leaving Duke to coach elsewhere. There is no reason for him to put to bed an issue he hasn't agreed to be a part of. Just because someone says someone is thinking or wanting to do something does not mean it is happening! To me that seems like a peculiar form of narcissism--because someone believes or wants something then it is so? Not. Wait until Coach K says he has changed his mind and is entertaining the thought of leaving Duke. Again, he has specifically said he is not leaving to coach elsewhere, this is his last coaching stop.

GO DUKE!

he said that back when the Lakers were courting him. He hasn't made an official statement to these rumors yet that I know of...

[hurleyfor3]

I let this run awhile, but everything that needs to be said has been.

[dyedwab]

I'd say he's pretty definitive

http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2010/02/duke_coach_mike_krzyzewski_lau.html


From the story


After chuckling, Krzyzewski said: "No one's contacted me, and if they do, I think 'nyet' would be easy for me to say."

[CThoops]

Interesting read:

http://trueslant.com/jonpessah/2010/02/13/coach-k-to-the-nets-not-going-to-happen/

[slower]

Really? Again? This is the fourth thread on this topic! The other three have been closed. Give it a rest.

[Duvall]

Interesting read

Not really, no.

[Newton_14]

Not really, no.

Actually one of the dumber articles I have read lately. There were so many myths and untruths trying to be passed off as facts in that article that I lost count. The writer covered practically all of the myths and negative stereotypes against Duke all in one article so give him credit for that I guess.. Interesting? Not so much.. Ignorant? Yep!

[77devil]

Interesting read:

http://trueslant.com/jonpessah/2010/02/13/coach-k-to-the-nets-not-going-to-happen/

Not really. It 's so riddled with errors it's laughable. Go away.

[TheRose77]

What part of "nyet" don't you understand?

[Viking Guy]

Link (http://trueslant.com/jonpessah/2010/02/13/coach-k-to-the-nets-not-going-to-happen/)

Submitted for your review. Jon Pessah (formerly of ESPN the Mag) got to know the inside of the Duke program during the media blitz surrounding the lacrosse nonsense. Here he's offering his thoughts on why K is here to stay.

[Turtleboy]

I don't know how much credence to give a guy who mixes rumor, innuendo, and just plain factual errors in with his opinion. K had two knee replacements? He suffered a breakdown in '95? His daughter writes his books for him? Really?

[JG Nothing]

I don't know how much credence to give a guy who mixes rumor, innuendo, and just plain factual errors in with his opinion. K had two knee replacements? He suffered a breakdown in '95? His daughter writes his books for him? Really?

Pessah was given special access to K and the basketball program in 2007 to write an article for ESPN Magazine. I believe he spent most of the summer around K and the program. The guy has more than a passing knowledge of K. That does not mean everything he says is fact, but he is not necessarily pulling it out of thin air. Pessah obviously knows K had hip replacement (see his profile of K) and confused it with knee surgery.

[allenmurray]

I don't know how much credence to give a guy who mixes rumor, innuendo, and just plain factual errors in with his opinion. K had two knee replacements? He suffered a breakdown in '95? His daughter writes his books for him? Really?

He has had two hip replacements. Many of his books are co-written (and this is not a ghost writing thing, the co-author is given full attribution and K makes no attempt to hide taht fact). Breakdown is a meaningless word. However, in one of K's own books he talks about about the relationship between physical illness and stress, and mentions that his team of doctors included Jean Spaulding (who is a psychiatrist by training).

[Turtleboy]

Pessah was given special access to K and the basketball program in 2007 to write an article for ESPN Magazine. I believe he spent most of the summer around K and the program. The guy has more than a passing knowledge of K. That does not mean everything he says is fact, but he is not necessarily pulling it out of thin air. Pessah obviously knows K had hip replacement (see his profile of K) and confused it with knee surgery.Isn't it his job to get that right?

I would also like to see his evidence that Duke uses the "underground economy", starting with a definition of that term.



He has had two hip replacements.Right. Hips, not knees.


Many of his books are co-written (and this is not a ghost writing thing, the co-author is given full attribution and K makes no attempt to hide taht fact).Right. Co-written, not ghost written.


Breakdown is a meaningless word.Then why use it?


However, in one of K's own books he talks about about the relationship between physical illness and stress, and mentions that his team of doctors included Jean Spaulding (who is a psychiatrist by training).So? What does that have to do with the allegation of a breakdown?


If this guy had all this access and still manages to get so much stuff wrong, I hardly think that argues for his credibility. Perhaps he needs a fact checker and a copy editor, but I am disinclined to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who writes for a living. As I note above, it's his job to get it right.

[Newton_14]

Someone linked the same article in one of the earlier Nets threads last week and I must state I did not like the article at all. I know the guy had inside access and may very well be a good writer, but this particular article was poorly written. I won't get into all the untruths but he implied K can't get good big men and never will again because of K's "system", and FF success is a thing of the past among other things..

[oldnavy]

He may have had inside access to K for an article, but nothing he proposes in this article came from that access. It is all speculation, and I might add, nothing that anyone of us could not have come up with on our own. Basically a useless article that attempts to be passed off as insider information with a touch of innuendo of wrong doing on the side...

[JG Nothing]

Someone linked the same article in one of the earlier Nets threads last week and I must state I did not like the article at all. I know the guy had inside access and may very well be a good writer, but this particular article was poorly written. I won't get into all the untruths but he implied K can't get good big men and never will again because of K's "system", and FF success is a thing of the past among other things..

Well, it is a blog. I remember reading Pessah's articles on the factions in the lacrosse scandals and his profiles of the affected lacrosse players. I thought both were excellent examples journalism's ability to capture mood in print.

I think it is obvious that Pessah is not a big K fan. However, it's not like the recruitment and development of big men is not an ongoing topic on this board and I doubt anyone expects Duke to return to the glory years of 1986-2004 (7 of 9 FFs) or 1999-2004 (3 of 6 FFs). Both were truly remarkable runs.

[Newton_14]

Well, it is a blog. I remember reading Pessah's articles on the factions in the lacrosse scandals and his profiles of the affected lacrosse players. I thought both were excellent examples journalism's ability to capture mood in print.

I think it is obvious that Pessah is not a big K fan. However, it's not like the recruitment and development of big men is not an ongoing topic on this board and I doubt anyone expects Duke to return to the glory years of 1986-2004 (7 of 9 FFs) or 1999-2004 (3 of 6 FFs). Both were truly remarkable runs.

My point is, to try to sit here today, and project that Duke, or any of the other historical basketball powers (UCLA, Ky, Kansas, Indiana, Unc, etc etc etc) will never again reach FF's and win titles is absurd. It makes no sense to try to make a prediction like that.

As for the big man myth, and suggestion that good big men will not choose Duke or be developed at Duke, again, it is absurd to predict that. And looking backwards, the facts say otherwise as well..

Like I said, the guy may be a great writer, but in my opinion this article was off the mark with some of the implications made.

[allenmurray]

Isn't it his job to get that right?

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. Whether or not Pesah got the details right was not my point. When accusations like these are made Duke fans tend to get overly defensive. That reality is true here with reactions to Pessah (though the "criticism" more often comes from folks in the unc camp).

K has written a lot of books. People then say, "well he didn't author them himself". So what? He is clear about them being co-authored, and even if they were ghost written, again, so what? That is incredibly common in publishing and is not generally regarded as anything dishonorable. In addition, there is an incredibly fine line between a ghost writer and an active and involved editor. We need to quit being so reactive to that kind of criticism.

The guy mistook knee replacements for hip replacements. So what? They are both major surgeries. The important point is that they did diminiish K's effectiveness and mobility for a short time and so he did the hard work to move through that. Instead of being so reactive we need to be able to say, "Yep, coach had some really tough orthopeadic problems - then he manned up and dealt with it." We don't need to worry if some author somewhere mistook a knee replacement for a hip replacement - that is hardly the point. That he battled through incredibly difficult surgery is the point.

Breakdown - ooh, the big boogeyman. The unc boards are full of folks who speak in conspiratorial whispers saying Coach K didn't really have health problems, he had a "breakdown". Big freakin' deal. We need to stop being so reactive to that as well. K fully admitted in his books that his health problems were exacerbated by his stress and emotional exhaustion, and that one of his primary doctors was a psychiatrist. It is not breaking news that physical pain and psychological stress have a bi-directional impact. Coach K is a great coach - we don't need to replace him with Superman. If he was willing to speak to this issue in his book, without being defensive about it, perhaps we need to stop being so defensive about it as well.

When folks feel the need to rebut every little mistake or accusation made against the program or the coach they don't do the program or coach any favors. Being overly reactive looks defensive, and folks/programs who look defensive end up looking weak. The stronger thing to do is to let it go.

[Turtleboy]

K has written a lot of books. People then say, "well he didn't author them himself". So what? He is clear about them being co-authored, and even if they were ghost written, again, so what? That is incredibly common in publishing and is not generally regarded as anything dishonorable. In addition, there is an incredibly fine line between a ghost writer and an active and involved editor.There is a very broad line between the two. A ghost writer does the actual writing. An editor takes your work and makes/suggests changes.


The guy mistook knee replacements for hip replacements. So what?It speaks to his credibility. I thought that was clear.


Breakdown - ooh, the big boogeyman. He made a claim, almost certainly false, that was totally unsupported. Again, his credibility is in question.


When folks feel the need to rebut every little mistake or accusation made against the program or the coach they don't do the program or coach any favors. Being overly reactive looks defensive, and folks/programs who look defensive end up looking weak. The stronger thing to do is to let it go.I rebutted nothing. I'm not defending K. I am criticizing the author for using rumor, innuendo, and factual errors, and stating that because of that the rest of what he says should be given little credence, if any.

[allenmurray]

There is a very broad line between the two. A ghost writer does the actual writing. An editor takes your work and makes/suggests changes.

It speaks to his credibility. I thought that was clear.

He made a claim, almost certainly false, that was totally unsupported. Again, his credibility is in question.

I rebutted nothing. I'm not defending K. I am criticizing the author for using rumor, innuendo, and factual errors, and stating that because of that the rest of what he says should be given little credence, if any.

Lighten up, Francis. If you come looking for an argument you will usually find one. I choose not to play.

[left_hook_lacey]

[QUOTE=Turtleboy;364891]Isn't it his job to get that right?

I would also like to see his evidence that Duke uses the "underground economy", starting with a definition of that term.

I think he was saying that Duke DOESN'T use the "underground economy" which could be a reason why they're not dominating the recruiting trail.

I surmise that by "underground economy" he means making under-handed, gray area agreements with AAU coaches and the like to increase Duke's chances of securing certain talent the way that a John Calipari might.

[Starter]

Krzyzewski is going to be on ESPN 1050 in New York in about five minutes with obnoxious blowhard Michael Kay. Kay just said he'd ask him about the Nets job, which means his show would be locked on this board. :rolleyes:

If you don't live in New York, you can listen using this page:

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/story?id=listenlive

[MulletMan]

Krzyzewski is going to be on ESPN 1050 in New York in about five minutes with obnoxious blowhard Michael Kay. Kay just said he'd ask him about the Nets job, which means his show would be locked on this board. :rolleyes:

If you don't live in New York, you can listen using this page:

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/story?id=listenlive

Let it be noted that after K had already said no, Kay then said, "Hey, the papers are reporting that the Nets are going to get Collangelo, and since you guys are so close, and he said, 'Mike... you name your price,' would you take the job?"

K's response, "No, I would not." He spoke nicely about Collangelo for a bit.

Kay then said, "C'mon... the Russian guy is rich... what if he offered you $20 million a year... then would you take the job?"

K's response, "No. I love Duke and am lucky enough to be at the place that I'm at. Why would I want to change that?"

Anybody care if I lock the thread?

[Starter]

Before it's locked, here are some quotes:

"I think it's a good job. I just don't think it's a good job for me."

He categorically denied that there was an offer made, and he pumped up Colangelo for the job, though he denied any amount of money would get him to go work with him.

"Rod Thorn and I are friends for decades, and I think it has a lot of potential, especially with really good financial backing. ... If I was a younger guy and wanted to go into the pros, that would be appealing for me because you'd have the chance to build something with new owners and a new arena."

"I do think that's something that will turn out really good. I'm not going to be a part of it, but I'm rooting for them."

"That's part of today's day and age, with blogs and twitter and talk shows. You don't have to be accurate with your information, in fact you can be dead wrong. ... If you're the person they're talking about, you can refute it even if you're dead right, but just by refuting it, they say, 'Well, he was offered that.'"

Kay pestered him, even asking if he'd go to the Nets for 20 million a year. To put that in perspective, Phil Jackson gets, I think, 12? Regardless, Krzyzewski said he makes decent money -- not THAT decent -- but he loves what he does at Duke.

This is all stuff we knew, but still good to hear him say it in detail under pressure.

[Duvall]

Anybody care if I lock the thread?

Inevitably someone will start another thread on this topic, and we'll have to deal with that thread plus the complaints about locking this thread. Might as well leave this one open.

[MulletMan]

Inevitably someone will start another thread on this topic, and we'll have to deal with that thread plus the complaints about locking this thread. Might as well leave this one open.

Yeah... it was kind of tongue in cheek, ya know? It seems like this thread is gonna take off in a minute or two... stay tuned.

[Jarhead]

Krzyzewski is going to be on ESPN 1050 in New York in about five minutes with obnoxious blowhard Michael Kay. Kay just said he'd ask him about the Nets job, which means his show would be locked on this board. :rolleyes:

If you don't live in New York, you can listen using this page:

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/story?id=listenliveThanks for the link. I listened to much of the broadcast, and K handled himself, as he always does, quite well. He was also quite clear. Not interested in the Nets.

[JonPessah]

Jon Pessah here. Would like to address a few things written here and then be happy to answer any other questions. First, I do not dislike Mike Krzyzewski. In fact, I find him an utterly fascinating subject and admire much of what he has done. Like most of us, he has his strong suits and his flaws. He is human, like the rest of us, and a high achiever who has a great deal of influence on our culture. Second, thank you all for pointing out my mistake about his surgery. I have corrected that (writing on the Internet is great for that.). Third, the issue of Mike's health is important. Yes, I did have special access the summer of 2007, spending hours and hours with Mike, Mickie, his daughters, etc. both in person and on the phone. I can assure you that Mickie was very concerned then with Mike's health and his habit of taking on so much work. She spoke at length about his breakdown that year, and that was the word she her self used. Mike has written about it as well, saying it was a problem with his back that was made worse by the stress of his job. Fourth, Duke's problem in attracting big men is real and well documented. I have spoken with many of the top high school big men of recent years about Duke and why they chose to go elsewhere. I wrote what they told me. Lastly, about the underground economy. Anyone who has been around college basketball or football knows that players are paid and players families are given jobs, etc. I have no problem with that, as I think college players should be paid for their services. College sports is a multi-billion business. Ed O'Bannon's suit against UCLA and the NCAA is now in discovery, so the curtain may be pulled back on some of this. The top players are paid in the six-figure range, going back to the $125,000 Stephon Marbury received to go to George Tech. As far as I can tell, Duke does not engage in the high-end side of this, which puts Mike at a disadvantage in recruiting the likes of a John Wall and a Mike Beasley. That has to be frustrating. I hope that I did not violate any DBR protocol in answering some of your questions and comments. As I said, I would be more than happy to answer any question you may have about the sourcing of what I wrote, or anything else you may be curious about. JP

[Biscuit King]

I skimmed that tripe and I only needed to see his comment about Boozer to make me angry.

Why do people try to hold up Carlos Boozer as some example of a guy that K/Wojo/Collins/The Duke Forces of Evil conspired to keep down? Boozer averaged 18 and 9 his junior year, he was one of the very few players in school history to average double figure points every year at Duke, and he graduated early to a very successful career in the NBA. Had he stayed another year, he probably would have been in line to have his jersey retired. Does that seem like a guy who was held back?

Just because NBA GMs were dumb enough to let him slip to the second round based on their lazy assessment of what he was capable of doesn't mean he wasn't a wildly successful player at Duke. He was probably among the top 5 or 6 big men in the ACC in the decade of the 2000s, and he did it despite some injuries. The guy was an absolute beast during his time in Durham, and any reference to him as less than that is simply STUPID and uninformed.

[weezie]

So, the NCAA really just averts their eyes unless a player or a rival program blows the whistle on any individual situation, is that the general take in the player "pay" issue?
I realize that this may be the wrong place to start any discussion in the topic, but is that an opinion you might agree with?

[cspan37421]

Wow, quite an allegation. Was it proven that GT paid Marbury, and if so, $125k? How did they never get put on probation? That seems far more that what KY sent Chris Mills (?) with the box o'cash that popped open in transit.

And Jon is basically saying that Beasley was paid and Wall too? Evidence? Not that I would be surprised - we're talking Huggins (of the 0% graduation rate) and Calipari (2 vacated final fours). But again, what specific evidence do you have, Mr. Pessah, about money or other impermissible benefits being paid to Wall and Beasley?

Again, let me say - it would not surprise me. What would surprise (and disappoint) me is if the facts are so well known and indisputable yet the NCAA does not act. At that point, why bother watching such a demonstrably crooked sport? I hold out hope it's not that bad, and whatever he implies by the absence of Duke being competitive at the "high end" of this chicanery is stuff that is within the rules, but perhaps shouldn't be.

[77devil]

Jon Pessah here. Would like to address a few things written here and then be happy to answer any other questions. First, I do not dislike Mike Krzyzewski. In fact, I find him an utterly fascinating subject and admire much of what he has done. Like most of us, he has his strong suits and his flaws. He is human, like the rest of us, and a high achiever who has a great deal of influence on our culture. Second, thank you all for pointing out my mistake about his surgery. I have corrected that (writing on the Internet is great for that.). Third, the issue of Mike's health is important. Yes, I did have special access the summer of 2007, spending hours and hours with Mike, Mickie, his daughters, etc. both in person and on the phone. I can assure you that Mickie was very concerned then with Mike's health and his habit of taking on so much work. She spoke at length about his breakdown that year, and that was the word she her self used. Mike has written about it as well, saying it was a problem with his back that was made worse by the stress of his job. Fourth, Duke's problem in attracting big men is real and well documented. I have spoken with many of the top high school big men of recent years about Duke and why they chose to go elsewhere. I wrote what they told me. Lastly, about the underground economy. Anyone who has been around college basketball or football knows that players are paid and players families are given jobs, etc. I have no problem with that, as I think college players should be paid for their services. College sports is a multi-billion business. Ed O'Bannon's suit against UCLA and the NCAA is now in discovery, so the curtain may be pulled back on some of this. The top players are paid in the six-figure range, going back to the $125,000 Stephon Marbury received to go to George Tech. As far as I can tell, Duke does not engage in the high-end side of this, which puts Mike at a disadvantage in recruiting the likes of a John Wall and a Mike Beasley. That has to be frustrating. I hope that I did not violate any DBR protocol in answering some of your questions and comments. As I said, I would be more than happy to answer any question you may have about the sourcing of what I wrote, or anything else you may be curious about. JP

The knee/hip surgery is not the only factual error in your article, if you are indeed who you profess to be. I'm not going to point them out. You'll have to do some homework. Personally, I think you're a troll.

Your allegation that there are widespread 6 figure payments is unsubstantiated, and you leave hanging, intentionally no doubt, the supposition that Duke pays, just not the big money. Do you have any evidence for such libelous words? Helping a parent get a job, see Duhon, Chris for details(how not clever), hardly equates to cash payments.

I guess the standards for a second rate internet journalist are pretty low. But wait, we already knew that.

[MulletMan]

It seems this is the actual Jon Pessah... for better or worse.

[Newton_14]

So if the 6 figure payments to high end players is true and Wall and others have nice fat bank accounts in the Caymans, then why are you on DBR and not on ESPN right now breaking the biggest story of your career? I would think College Basketball as we know it would come crashing down by the end of the week if what you are stating is true and you would be the instant hero.

[devildownunder]

I don't know how much credence to give a guy who mixes rumor, innuendo, and just plain factual errors in with his opinion. K had two knee replacements? He suffered a breakdown in '95? His daughter writes his books for him? Really?

Turtleboy, just out of curiousity, what claim in Pessah making that you're not wanting to give much credence? Your comments about the inaccuracies in his work are valid but I get the sense that you are using those holes to discredit something else that Pessah says. Something that perhaps you don't like. If that is the case, what is it that Pessah has stated that you would like to discredit? I'm curious.

UPDATE: Ah! Got it now. It's this underground economy. Understood.

[devildownunder]

My point is, to try to sit here today, and project that Duke, or any of the other historical basketball powers (UCLA, Ky, Kansas, Indiana, Unc, etc etc etc) will never again reach FF's and win titles is absurd. It makes no sense to try to make a prediction like that.

As for the big man myth, and suggestion that good big men will not choose Duke or be developed at Duke, again, it is absurd to predict that. And looking backwards, the facts say otherwise as well..

Like I said, the guy may be a great writer, but in my opinion this article was off the mark with some of the implications made.

Well, in fairness, he didn't say Duke -- much less all of the traditional powers -- would never return to the final four. He said they wouldn't dominate it the way they use to, basically because of changes in recruiting trends and the end of getting NBA-level talents to come to school for four years. I would argue that he is, more than likely, correct in making this statement. George Mason ring a bell?

He also didn't say K couldn't recruit big men, he said he's been having some costly misses in that department, which is also true.

I do take offense to his comments about Boozer. It is truly amazing that even with everything Carlos accomplished at Duke and is accomplishing now in the NBA, people still don't want to give him any credit for actually having some talent. I don't get it. Probably just a case of people refusing to admit they were wrong. Common.

[throatybeard]

When busy journalists bother to post on the site, could we at least be halfway civil to them?

[JaMarcus Russell]

So if the 6 figure payments to high end players is true and Wall and others have nice fat bank accounts in the Caymans, then why are you on DBR and not on ESPN right now breaking the biggest story of your career? I would think College Basketball as we know it would come crashing down by the end of the week if what you are stating is true and you would be the instant hero.

These things are extremely tough to prove. Case in point, look at the Reggie Bush housing situation with USC. Since coaches are rarely the ones actually handing out payments and/or benefits these days, it is hard to prove that the athletic department had "knowledge" of the situation.

One of my good friends is the son of a very high-profile college coach, and he has used the term "pay for play" for many top players who end up at the same programs. They include some of the exact same names and teams that Jon Pessah mentioned in his post.

While the NCAA has incentive to stop the most egregious violations, it's certainly not in their self-interest to really go after every team that is bending the rules.

ETA: I just looked up Jon Pessah's first post on DBR by the way which is kind of interesting although it doesn't offer any evidence.

[Verga3]

Jon Pessah here. Would like to address a few things written here and then be happy to answer any other questions. First, I do not dislike Mike Krzyzewski. In fact, I find him an utterly fascinating subject and admire much of what he has done. Like most of us, he has his strong suits and his flaws. He is human, like the rest of us, and a high achiever who has a great deal of influence on our culture. Second, thank you all for pointing out my mistake about his surgery. I have corrected that (writing on the Internet is great for that.). Third, the issue of Mike's health is important. Yes, I did have special access the summer of 2007, spending hours and hours with Mike, Mickie, his daughters, etc. both in person and on the phone. I can assure you that Mickie was very concerned then with Mike's health and his habit of taking on so much work. She spoke at length about his breakdown that year, and that was the word she her self used. Mike has written about it as well, saying it was a problem with his back that was made worse by the stress of his job. Fourth, Duke's problem in attracting big men is real and well documented. I have spoken with many of the top high school big men of recent years about Duke and why they chose to go elsewhere. I wrote what they told me. Lastly, about the underground economy. Anyone who has been around college basketball or football knows that players are paid and players families are given jobs, etc. I have no problem with that, as I think college players should be paid for their services. College sports is a multi-billion business. Ed O'Bannon's suit against UCLA and the NCAA is now in discovery, so the curtain may be pulled back on some of this. The top players are paid in the six-figure range, going back to the $125,000 Stephon Marbury received to go to George Tech. As far as I can tell, Duke does not engage in the high-end side of this, which puts Mike at a disadvantage in recruiting the likes of a John Wall and a Mike Beasley. That has to be frustrating. I hope that I did not violate any DBR protocol in answering some of your questions and comments. As I said, I would be more than happy to answer any question you may have about the sourcing of what I wrote, or anything else you may be curious about. JP

"As far as I can tell, Duke does not engage in the high-end side of this, which puts Mike at a disadvantage in recruiting the likes of a John Wall and a Mike Beasley. That has to be frustrating."

This is a pretty disturbing quote, "as far as I can tell."

JonPessah, it's good to know that Duke "does not engage in the high-end side of this." So, what do they engage in, as far as you can tell.

[dukemsu]

that's certainly interesting, I suppose.

Six figure range? While I don't trust ESPN to out anything like this, it could still be happening, I suppose. I heard a ton of this stuff in my college years as that was the era of the Ed Martin scandal at Michigan, but you never really knew what was legit and what wasn't, until Webber and company were basically forced into admitting it.

I just don't think it could be that easy to routinely hide six figure payments to players anymore, certainly not in cash. And it seems to me that the IRS would be interested as well. Then again, I'm just a fan, no journalist. Maybe there are ways.

Either way, bit of a buzzkill. But maybe that's the point, if the post is legit.

dukemsu

[devildownunder]

These things are extremely tough to prove. Case in point, look at the Reggie Bush housing situation with USC. Since coaches are rarely the ones actually handing out payments and/or benefits these days, it is hard to prove that the athletic department had "knowledge" of the situation.

One of my good friends is the son of a very high-profile college coach, and he has used the term "pay for play" for many top players who end up at the same programs. They include some of the exact same names and teams that Jon Pessah mentioned in his post.

While the NCAA has incentive to stop the most egregious violations, it's certainly not in their self-interest to really go after every team that is bending the rules.

ETA: I just looked up Jon Pessah's first post on DBR by the way which is kind of interesting although it doesn't offer any evidence.


If you are going to make potentially damaging allegations, you should have some evidence or them. It's not enough to just say, "well these things are hard to prove but I'll just go ahead and say them anyway because I know it's going on". That's not journalism, that's shooting the bull at a dinner party. I've been in the newspaper and magazine publishing business for a long time. Lawyers at the places I have worked would not have allowed Mr Pessah's statements about Kentucky etc into print unless, for some reason, they thought the target of the statements' hands were tied. The suggestions are potentially libelous -- although more likely to draw such action from the other schools mentioned than from Duke. The main problem is the specific players mentioned. It's indirect and libel can be hard to prove sometimes so that may be why Pessah's statements weren't "lawyered" out of his piece. It's treading a thin line, however.

[JG Nothing]

When busy journalists bother to post on the site, could we at least be halfway civil to them?

I agree. Pessah is a professional with a lot of experience in sports journalism. And yes, he is a darn good writer. Otherwise, K and the athletic department would not have granted him inside access to write a profile on K and our basketball program. Here is an opportunity to get some insight from a person who has a real insider's perspective on college basketball.
For the same reason, I find it disappointing that the moderators are so quick to combine Pessah's thread with the K and the Nets thread. The conversation was moving in a decidedly different and more interesting direction. Now it is buried in a thread that does not even share the same subject (except in a very peripheral way). No one is discussing Pessah's assertion that K will not go to the Nets. It's way beyond that.
Certainly, some threads should be combined. But the knee jerk combination of seemingly related threads can stifle interesting conversations. I wish the moderators would exercise a little restraint sometimes.

[CameronBornAndBred]

A couple of points to this and other posts. (And I appreciate the posts.)
1. On Boozer: I was not implying that Carlos was not talented, and I agree that many NBA general managers missed on him, much to their regret. What I am saying is that many high school players see that Boozer went on the second round and have second thoughts. That is what they and their coaches tell me. Fair or not, that is the case.
2. On the underground economy: any good journalist does not reveal source and betray confidences. I will say that I was told by several people very close to the situation that Beasley got $185,000 to go to K-State. (far less than he would have received had he been allowed to go to the NBA instead of risking injury—see Billy Walker—by playing college basketball.) As for how this is done, the mother of one high profile player at a top ACC team told me that she asked one coach how the money would be exchanged. He told her that they would both have keys to a safety deposit box. He would put the cash in the box, she would take it out. When the coach checked and found it empty, he would refill the box. This went on until the agreed upon money ran out. (postscript: the player went to another school.)
The OJ Mayo story is true, and the guy who spilled is in big trouble with the Crips in LA, who put up some of the money for OJ. Watch the Reggie Bush trial. The plaintiff refused the money from the Bush camp offered, and a judge refused to agree to confidential arbitration. This one is going to trial and we will all get a look at how college football is really played. Oh, by the way, did anyone notice how eager Mike Garrett was to throw his no-money-making basketball program under the bus in hopes of saving the big money football program?
This is the way the game is played, and everyone--from K to ADs to college presidents to the media--know all about it. The media can not write this unless people go on the record and produce documentation, and as you can see from the above anecdote, there are no records for most of what goes on in the underground economy. None of the people in the game will talk about it, unless they want to be blackballed like Tennesee Coach Bruce Pearl was many year ago (google that story, it's worth reading). Trust me, the UE is real.
I have no reason to discount what you're saying..but I also have no reason to believe it. If indeed it is, I do hope you are planning on going public in some way with it..that is monumentally huge information that has incredible implications and consequences. Looking forward to reading the facts backing up the story.

[Delaware]

... and to lighten the mood of this back and forth.... Stripes is my all time favorite movie!


Lighten up, Francis. If you come looking for an argument you will usually find one. I choose not to play.

[allenmurray]

When busy journalists bother to post on the site, could we at least be halfway civil to them?

I think we should be civil to everybody. I also think if a "busy journalist" comes to an internet fan site and names specific players and says they recieved upwards of six figures in cash to attend a specific school he should be able to cite some evidence.

This guy just named two specific players and the amount of money they received. He also said that OJ Mayo's payments were connected to a well known criminal gang. However, he gave no evidence. If a "regular poster" had done such a thing he'd be banned for rumour mongering, and rightly so.

[DukeUsul]

When busy journalists bother to post on the site, could we at least be halfway civil to them?

No, we have a stereotype to uphold. :rolleyes:

[whirlieduke4]

I would just like to point out that as much as you try to get Pessah to provide credible evidence, I don't believe he can do so without compromising his sources. As a journalist there's no way he can do this, so until he comes forward with hard evidence not coming from the mouth of a source, it appears we're at an impasse...

[Verga3]

I would just like to point out that as much as you try to get Pessah to provide credible evidence, I don't believe he can do so without compromising his sources. As a journalist there's no way he can do this, so until he comes forward with hard evidence not coming from the mouth of a source, it appears we're at an impasse...


I hear you and absolutely agree. But, it's interesting that in his original post that he stated, "I would be more than happy to answer any question you may have about the sourcing of what I wrote, or anything else you may be curious about."

But, it just smells too much like someone floating hearsay....which would be well beneath this professional journalist. I hope he can beter explain.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I would just like to point out that as much as you try to get Pessah to provide credible evidence, I don't believe he can do so without compromising his sources. As a journalist there's no way he can do this, so until he comes forward with hard evidence not coming from the mouth of a source, it appears we're at an impasse...
And thus it's rumor mongoring. If you can't back it up, it's a rumor, no matter who says it. And this rumor is larger than most that are posted here.

[JasonEvans]

I am not here to attack or defend some of the most scandalous allegations Pessah makes in his posts, however I would like to relate a story.

When I was at Duke, from 1986-89, I was good friends with a number of players on the team. One of them, who was a starter and a highly regarded recruit, told me he had been offered $20,000 to go to a prominent Big East school. He would have had no reason to lie about this story or make it up. He said that he turned the offer down because his family was already fairly well off and he wanted to come to Duke.

This was the mid-late 1980s. Back then, NBA first round draft picks were only making a few hundred grand a year. Today, they make 5-10 times that much. Salaries and the money associated with basketball has gone through the roof.

So, if the going price for a top 20 recruit in the mid-80s was $20k, I don't think $100k+ today seems that out of line.

--Jason "again, I am not verifying Pessah's story at all, just giving it some historical perspective" Evans

[Jarhead]

I would just like to point out that as much as you try to get Pessah to provide credible evidence, I don't believe he can do so without compromising his sources. As a journalist there's no way he can do this, so until he comes forward with hard evidence not coming from the mouth of a source, it appears we're at an impasse...

Then what good is his story? When a journalist goes public with some damaging information about someone, he is responsible for the disclosure, and his action is probably actionable, either in court or in the media. It is irresponsible for someone to spread a falsehood, and then cover it up with some sort of questionable ethics to avoid prooving his contentions. Something that has not been proven true has a pretty good chance on being proven false. If the journalist values his reputation, he should be willing to prove everything he alleges, or not publish it until he is willing to offer proof.

[roywhite]

I am not here to attack or defend some of the most scandalous allegations Pessah makes in his posts, however I would like to relate a story.

When I was at Duke, from 1986-89, I was good friends with a number of players on the team. One of them, who was a starter and a highly regarded recruit, told me he had been offered $20,000 to go to a prominent Big East school. He would have had no reason to lie about this story or make it up. He said that he turned the offer down because his family was already fairly well off and he wanted to come to Duke.

This was the mid-late 1980s. Back then, NBA first round draft picks were only making a few hundred grand a year. Today, they make 5-10 times that much. Salaries and the money associated with basketball has gone through the roof.

So, if the going price for a top 20 recruit in the mid-80s was $20k, I don't think $100k+ today seems that out of line.

--Jason "again, I am not verifying Pessah's story at all, just giving it some historical perspective" Evans

There were loose stories about some ACC players getting paid back when I was in school, and that was in the early 1970's.

Since that time, and since Jason's time, we've seen huge increases in TV revenue, skyrocketing coach's salaries in college football and basketball, and great attention through the internet and cable TV to recruiting. So, there's more money than ever in and around major college football and basketball.

Are players getting paid? Is it more commonplace? Quite possibly.

Still, allegations and general statements require some proof, and I'm not seeing or hearing much from our guest.

[Jarhead]

I am not here to attack or defend some of the most scandalous allegations Pessah makes in his posts, however I would like to relate a story.

When I was at Duke, from 1986-89, I was good friends with a number of players on the team. One of them, who was a starter and a highly regarded recruit, told me he had been offered $20,000 to go to a prominent Big East school. He would have had no reason to lie about this story or make it up. He said that he turned the offer down because his family was already fairly well off and he wanted to come to Duke.

This was the mid-late 1980s. Back then, NBA first round draft picks were only making a few hundred grand a year. Today, they make 5-10 times that much. Salaries and the money associated with basketball has gone through the roof.

So, if the going price for a top 20 recruit in the mid-80s was $20k, I don't think $100k+ today seems that out of line.

--Jason "again, I am not verifying Pessah's story at all, just giving it some historical perspective" Evans

Some more historical perspective, Jason. Some time ago the greatest player ever in the ACC was recruited by two ACC universities. All that player received was tickets from one and a sport coat from the other. Well sort of. The gifts came from a single booster, but both universities were sanctioned for the booster's actions. Back then the total value of the gifts was probably about $200.

[devildownunder]

Then what good is his story? When a journalist goes public with some damaging information about someone, he is responsible for the disclosure, and his action is probably actionable, either in court or in the media. It is irresponsible for someone to spread a falsehood, and then cover it up with some sort of questionable ethics to avoid prooving his contentions. Something that has not been proven true has a pretty good chance on being proven false. If the journalist values his reputation, he should be willing to prove everything he alleges, or not publish it until he is willing to offer proof.

Jarhead, whether you're convinced or not, he's told you where he found the stories that are the basis for his claims now. You can't ask him to reveal his sources on an internet message board.

It should be noted that the story wasn't an investigative report on corruption in college basketball, it was a story about coach K and the NBA. As such, expecting the story to contain a long, detailed narrative recounting how he reported on college bball payments is unrealistic and unfair.

It's proper to want to scrutinize the value of his information but demanding that he name previously anonymous sources in this forum isn't right.

[MulletMan]

Mr. Pessah,

Understand that moderators have no obligation to explain why or how we moderate posts on this board. However, in the interest of open dialogue, I am going to post a note on why I deleted your second post in the thread. Your first post was little more than a reprint of you "blog entry" from earlier in the day. Fine. Your second post, however, was what we have defined on this board as "rumor mongering". We do not allow these posts to stand, especially when they make such damning statements as the one you specifically made against Georgia Tech/Marbury and KState/Beasley.

You want stuff like that to stand, then go ahead and back it up with some sources. Do not think that since this is an internet bulletin board, you can just hide behind the, "I'm a journalist and I need to protect my sources" garbage. That's what your blog is for. We would not allow any other poster to get away with that, and as such, you will not be permitted to do so.

[devildownunder]

Mr. Pessah,

Understand that moderators have no obligation to explain why or how we moderate posts on this board. However, in the interest of open dialogue, I am going to post a note on why I deleted your second post in the thread. Your first post was little more than a reprint of you "blog entry" from earlier in the day. Fine. Your second post, however, was what we have defined on this board as "rumor mongering". We do not allow these posts to stand, especially when they make such damning statements as the one you specifically made against Georgia Tech/Marbury and KState/Beasley.

You want stuff like that to stand, then go ahead and back it up with some sources. Do not think that since this is an internet bulletin board, you can just hide behind the, "I'm a journalist and I need to protect my sources" garbage. That's what your blog is for. We would not allow any other poster to get away with that, and as such, you will not be permitted to do so.

The need for journalists to protect their sources is not "garbage". I'm not writing in response to anything else you've said here, so don't feel the need to respond as if I have. I'm responding to this one, specific, FALSE statement.

[Jarhead]

Jarhead, whether you're convinced or not, he's told you where he found the stories that are the basis for his claims now. You can't ask him to reveal his sources on an internet message board.

It should be noted that the story wasn't an investigative report on corruption in college basketball, it was a story about coach K and the NBA. As such, expecting the story to contain a long, detailed narrative recounting how he reported on college bball payments is unrealistic and unfair.

It's proper to want to scrutinize the value of his information but demanding that he name previously anonymous sources in this forum isn't right.

I disagree. Not all rights granted by the Constitution are absolute. There are exceptions. And this board has the right to demand responsible posts, as far as I can tell.

Texas A&M and Kansas are tied with about 3:45 in the second half.

[moonpie23]

it's depressing....you want to think you're school is not involved in things like this, but you're somewhat naive to think they're not....


a question for mister pessah. If it really is this rampant, and the mechanics really take place as you suggest, why can't some journalist expose it with evidence. Witnesses aren't the only way to corroborate a scandal of this magnitude.

why not set some high level coaching staff up? recordings, video? bank records (obtained by hook or by crook).......conviction of the deeds doesn't have to be part of the story either...

i'm just wondering....

[cspan37421]

I'm no expert in journalism, but it seems to me that if protecting sources was so important, then someone who wishes their incendiary allegations to be taken seriously should provide some corroborating evidence other than hearsay.

Say what you want about the NCAA, its rules, and its alleged failure to live up to its own standards, but tax evasion is a serious crime.

[MulletMan]

The need for journalists to protect their sources is not "garbage". I'm not writing in response to anything else you've said here, so don't feel the need to respond as if I have. I'm responding to this one, specific, FALSE statement.

The cloak of "source protection" has become a bastion for irresponsible journalism. In this day and age of the internet, people can get a public forum for whatever they want to say and then claim that they have inside information, but must protect their sources when pressed on providing said sources of, what is often, incriminating information.

You are right in that sometimes journalists need to protect their sources. But the increasing incidence of "journalists" writing incendiary material on the internet, and then claiming that said material was gleaned from "confidential" or "protected" sources stinks of the boy who cried wolf.

[moonpie23]

one of the problems with a "blog" is that there is no oversight. Mr. pessah can "publish" anything he wants and would only risk libel charges.

now if mister pessah worked for a "credible" news reporting entity, i doubt very seriously he would be able to print all this without his EDITORS and PUBLISHERS feeling safe....

[tbyers11]

The need for journalists to protect their sources is not "garbage". I'm not writing in response to anything else you've said here, so don't feel the need to respond as if I have. I'm responding to this one, specific, FALSE statement.

The mods aren't threatening jail time or physical harm if he does not reveal his sources. They are requiring him to not spread rumors for which he will not reveal his sources to post on this particular bulletin board. That is the big difference in my opinion.

One basketball point, his comment in the deleted post (I don't think I am out of bounds since this wasn't the salacious part) about the fact that Boozer being picked in the second round was keeping potential big men recruits from coming to Duke. This doesn't make any sense to me since Shelden (who has had much less success than Carlos in the pros) has since been picked in the lottery.

[Duvall]

It should be noted that the story wasn't an investigative report on corruption in college basketball, it was a story about coach K and the NBA. As such, expecting the story to contain a long, detailed narrative recounting how he reported on college bball payments is unrealistic and unfair.

Of course, that makes it even worse. Pessah's claims about Marbury and Wall were largely immaterial to the thrust of his arguments, such as they were. If he had neither the time nor the inclination to support those claims there was no need to include them.

[77devil]

I am not here to attack or defend some of the most scandalous allegations Pessah makes in his posts, however I would like to relate a story.

When I was at Duke, from 1986-89, I was good friends with a number of players on the team. One of them, who was a starter and a highly regarded recruit, told me he had been offered $20,000 to go to a prominent Big East school. He would have had no reason to lie about this story or make it up. He said that he turned the offer down because his family was already fairly well off and he wanted to come to Duke.

This was the mid-late 1980s. Back then, NBA first round draft picks were only making a few hundred grand a year. Today, they make 5-10 times that much. Salaries and the money associated with basketball has gone through the roof.

So, if the going price for a top 20 recruit in the mid-80s was $20k, I don't think $100k+ today seems that out of line.

--Jason "again, I am not verifying Pessah's story at all, just giving it some historical perspective" Evans

No doubt some players are getting paid whether the individuals and amounts Pessah cites are accurate or not. This is not new. But the innuendo he uses that Duke pays, just not as significantly, is an unsubstantiated cheap shot.

I've looked at his other pieces about Duke and they are all disapproving. The printed record clearly demonstrates that this guy has an agenda. He should be criticized.

[77devil]

Some more historical perspective, Jason. Some time ago the greatest player ever in the ACC was recruited by two ACC universities. All that player received was tickets from one and a sport coat from the other. Well sort of. The gifts came from a single booster, but both universities were sanctioned for the booster's actions. Back then the total value of the gifts was probably about $200.

That was 1971. See what all the subsequent double digit inflation caused.

[JG Nothing]

No doubt some players are getting paid whether the individuals and amounts Pessah cites are accurate or not. This is not new. But the innuendo he uses that Duke pays, just not as significantly, is an unsubstantiated cheap shot.

I've looked at his other pieces about Duke and they are all disapproving. The printed record clearly demonstrates that this guy has an agenda. He should be criticized.

I do not think Pessah means to suggest that Duke pays players. His insinuation is that a few parents have received help in getting jobs. That is not the first time this issue has been raised.

Besides Pessah's article "Is this the End for Coach K?", what other disapproving pieces has he written about Duke?

[Duvall]

I agree. Pessah is a professional with a lot of experience in sports journalism. And yes, he is a darn good writer. Otherwise, K and the athletic department would not have granted him inside access to write a profile on K and our basketball program.

You know, I'm not sure that's true. Krzyzewski may well have learned the hard way that granting access to a sportswriter will, at worst, lead to one unflattering story, but denying access to a sportswriter can leader to a lifetime of unflattering stories.

It's a bit like paying protection money to the Mafia, but without the sincerity.

[devildownunder]

Of course, that makes it even worse. Pessah's claims about Marbury and Wall were largely immaterial to the thrust of his arguments, such as they were. If he had neither the time nor the inclination to support those claims there was no need to include them.


Agree to a small extent. Dropping a bomb in otherwise unrelated copy is ill-advised, however, what I was saying was that had he been writing a story about corruption in college bball, then he would be expected to include pages of details about how he learned what he learned, the paper trail, etc (although some anonymous sources would almost certainly be included as well). But since this was a much shorter piece about something else, a couple of sentences would do the trick, assuming of course that he had the info to back it up.

[JaMarcus Russell]

I do not think Pessah means to suggest that Duke pays players. His insinuation is that a few parents have received help in getting jobs. That is not the first time this issue has been raised.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Along with the fact that Maggette received money while playing AAU ball from someone with no affiliation to Duke, these are the main examples cited by anti-Duke extremists (not Pessah) like the guys in charge of Truth About Duke when they claim that Duke's program is just like everyone else's.

Of course, there are about 100 good counter-arguments which have probably been mentioned by posters on this site and many others.

[devildownunder]

The mods aren't threatening jail time or physical harm if he does not reveal his sources. They are requiring him to not spread rumors for which he will not reveal his sources to post on this particular bulletin board. That is the big difference in my opinion.

One basketball point, his comment in the deleted post (I don't think I am out of bounds since this wasn't the salacious part) about the fact that Boozer being picked in the second round was keeping potential big men recruits from coming to Duke. This doesn't make any sense to me since Shelden (who has had much less success than Carlos in the pros) has since been picked in the lottery.

Yeah, see, as I stated in my original post to try to avoid such flames, the only thing I took exception to was his characterization of a reporter's need to protect sources as "garbage". I don't care what the context is, that's not garbage. That was my only point. Something that I tried VERY hard to make clear in the post that you just quoted.

[devildownunder]

I disagree. Not all rights granted by the Constitution are absolute. There are exceptions. And this board has the right to demand responsible posts, as far as I can tell.

Texas A&M and Kansas are tied with about 3:45 in the second half.

Look, if he refused to say anything, that's one thing. But he didn't do that. He told you the anecdotes to which he was referring. But you're asking him, basically, to upload documents and mp3s of his interviews -- the kind of stuff that someone would try to subpoena for a court trial. That's ridiculous.

[devildownunder]

The cloak of "source protection" has become a bastion for irresponsible journalism. In this day and age of the internet, people can get a public forum for whatever they want to say and then claim that they have inside information, but must protect their sources when pressed on providing said sources of, what is often, incriminating information.

You are right in that sometimes journalists need to protect their sources. But the increasing incidence of "journalists" writing incendiary material on the internet, and then claiming that said material was gleaned from "confidential" or "protected" sources stinks of the boy who cried wolf.


And again, I direct you back to my original post, where I specifically stated that I took offense with ONLY the notion that the need for a reporter to protect sources was not garbage. I made no reference to any specific case, let alone this one, or to internet reports or anything else. The principle itself is not garbage.

Enough from me on this one. Done posting.

[JonPessah]

So, the NCAA really just averts their eyes unless a player or a rival program blows the whistle on any individual situation, is that the general take in the player "pay" issue?
I realize that this may be the wrong place to start any discussion in the topic, but is that an opinion you might agree with?

Yes, that is true. And even at that, they are selective. They have to be. The enforcement unit is very small—do you think that is unintentional?—so it has to pick and chose who and what they go after. I have a close friend who was in that office for a number of years. This person says that on football signing day, the phone rings off the hook from coaches turning on the coaches who just got the recruit they wanted.

And don't discount the power of the real money people. T. Boone Pickens gave more than $100 million to Oklahoma State athletics and another $100 mil to the school itself. He has a lot of powerful friends. So does Phil Knight, who buys new uniforms for every home game the football teams play at Oregon. Same relationship at Arkansas and the family owns Tyson Foods. And the Schottenstein family at Ohio State. And so on across the country.

Do you really think that college presidents, whose main role is to raise money for their universities, are going to cross the programs subsidized by these men? I have sat in meetings of the Knight Commission, the supposed watchdog organization for college sports, and iistened to college presidents talk about an alternate universe that simply does not exist. After an hour, I want to put a bullet in my head. One of your board members sits on that Commission. Willful ignorance is no excuse.

And please remember, I hold the athletes the least accountable in all of this. They are playing in a system devised by the grown ups, and have been since they were 8 or 9 years old. That this is a system that teaches lies and corruption to kids from and early age, and ultimately exploits kids from the most exploited group of people in our country—African American males—makes this so, so sad.

Sorry, this is probably more information than you wanted. I hope I at least answered your question. JP

[JonPessah]

Mr. Pessah,

Understand that moderators have no obligation to explain why or how we moderate posts on this board. However, in the interest of open dialogue, I am going to post a note on why I deleted your second post in the thread. Your first post was little more than a reprint of you "blog entry" from earlier in the day. Fine. Your second post, however, was what we have defined on this board as "rumor mongering". We do not allow these posts to stand, especially when they make such damning statements as the one you specifically made against Georgia Tech/Marbury and KState/Beasley.

You want stuff like that to stand, then go ahead and back it up with some sources. Do not think that since this is an internet bulletin board, you can just hide behind the, "I'm a journalist and I need to protect my sources" garbage. That's what your blog is for. We would not allow any other poster to get away with that, and as such, you will not be permitted to do so.

Thanks for the explanation and I respect your decisions. I was trying to give your members the benefit of what I know, but I can see where you were coming from and will leave comments like those out of my copy going forward. If I slip, please remove the material and let me know. As I said, I'm just trying to say what I can from the 36 years I've done this without burning sources. The Marbury/Beasley stories have been out there for a while, but again, I understand your decision and will abide by it.

I appreciate the comments from your members, pro and (mostly) con. As one of the old school writers, I've always wondered who was reading my work and what they thought. The chance to have these conversations is both interesting and helpful. So, thanks again for the the opportunity to engage your members.

[Exiled_Devil]

I would just like to point out that as much as you try to get Pessah to provide credible evidence, I don't believe he can do so without compromising his sources. As a journalist there's no way he can do this, so until he comes forward with hard evidence not coming from the mouth of a source, it appears we're at an impasse...

That argument only really works for published news, not internet boards. I see your intent, but the idea that he can't reveal sources in order to protect them over-inflates the issue (most examples of 'compromised sources' that I can think of involve serious crime and most recently, potentially treason) and the lack of editorial oversight gives too much leeway for rumor instead of legitimate anonymous sources.

The issue with his assertions about money and players, IMO, is that it is passed of with an air of assumption - as if everyone knows this going on because lots of people think it is, and he projects a more 'informed' version of the assumptions.

Unfortunately for Pessa's credibility, those unsubstantiated assertions are after comments that have be long debunked by those that follow Duke - Duke can't get top big men (see Plumlee, Mason) and that Duke's system doesn't let big men flourish (see 18 and 10, Boozer). He's already shown some us that he doesn't know Duke as well as we think he should, and its easy enough to under value his insight into the 'underground economy' of college sports. It also doesn't help that the examples he brings up for the underground economy are the classic terp and tarheel complaints.

Pessa - welcome to the board. I think you are off base on a lot of your conclusions, but appreciate your wandering into our corner of the internet.

[Exiled_Devil]

Yeah, see, as I stated in my original post to try to avoid such flames, the only thing I took exception to was his characterization of a reporter's need to protect sources as "garbage". I don't care what the context is, that's not garbage. That was my only point. Something that I tried VERY hard to make clear in the post that you just quoted.

You miss the main point of the post - the extension of the first amendment to protecting sources is contextual. IANAL, but the difference between protecting a source in the NYTimes or WaPo and on an internet discussion board is relevant. Frankly, the role of editor in the newspaper is filled by the moderators on this board, and in the case of whether an allegation of a public figure is substantiated enough, a newspaper editor and our moderators here are both making the same choice as to whether that can be printed.

In other words, its fine for DBR to say that "protecting sources" is garbage. It's theeditorial choice of the publishing entity.

[allenmurray]

Pessah is independant. When an organization like the Washington Post, or Newsweek, or even SI has a reporter who says he "can't divulge his sources", you also have editors and publishers in the mix. These folks may well be familiar with the sources, have seen the documents, etc. (or have such a lengthy relationship with their reporter that they are willing to extend themselves on his behalf). So then what you have is an organization willing to stake its own credibility on sources who must have their anonymity protected (and protecting anonymity is valid and necessary if that reporter ever hopes to get information again).

Pessah is independant. We simply have to "take his word for it". I don't doubt that there is corruption at high levels in college sports simply given the money involved. But in essence he is saying "just believe me." If he was working for a major news organization, and these claims had been made in the NY Times or Newsweek magazine, what we would be seeing is a large organization staking its credibility on Pessah's sources, with the probability that they were familiar with them. Without that the burden of proof and the need to establish credibility is much higher for Pessah.

[Turtleboy]

Lighten up, Francis. If you come looking for an argument you will usually find one. I choose not to play.The only one arguing is you. I am merely trying to clarify my position, which you insist on misrepresenting.

[77devil]

I do not think Pessah means to suggest that Duke pays players. His insinuation is that a few parents have received help in getting jobs. That is not the first time this issue has been raised.

That's your opinion, but insinuations are wide open for interpretation. Here is the quote from the blog post. "For one, Duke doesn’t pay top dollar for talent that some of its competitors offer in college basketball’s underground economy." He didn't write that Duke doesn't pay; he wrote that Duke doesn't pay top dollar. Even though he makes an oblique reference to Brand and Duhon, that the typical reader has no context for, if he meant what you think, why not write it clearly and specifically, particularly about such a controversial and accusatory subject? Why, because he wanted to leave a murky impression to generate hits on his blog site. And he has posted several times since other posters have cited this statement, and the other cash payment information in his first post, and has failed to respond as to exactly what he meant about Duke.

Why do you think that is?


Besides Pessah's article "Is this the End for Coach K?", what other disapproving pieces has he written about Duke?

Try Google.

[JG Nothing]

That's your opinion, but insinuations are wide open for interpretation. Here is the quote from the blog post. "For one, Duke doesn’t pay top dollar for talent that some of its competitors offer in college basketball’s underground economy." He didn't write that Duke doesn't pay; he wrote that Duke doesn't pay top dollar. Even though he makes an oblique reference to Brand and Duhon, that the typical reader has no context for, if he meant what you think, why not write it clearly and specifically, particularly about such a controversial and accusatory subject? Why, because he wanted to leave a murky impression to generate hits on his blog site. And he has posted several times since other posters have cited this statement, and the other cash payment information in his first post, and has failed to respond as to exactly what he meant about Duke.

Why do you think that is?

And that is your opinion about what Pessah intended to do in his blog. By the way, you conveniently left out Pessah's bracketed comment that immediately follows his statement you quote. Why do you think that is?


Try Google.

Also, I know what features Pessah has written related to Duke. You are the one claiming that he wrote multiple disapproving articles about Duke. Let's hear what you got. If the "print record" of his "agenda" is so "clear" as you contend, then you should have no trouble providing some citations.

[Jarhead]

That was 1971. See what all the subsequent double digit inflation caused.

The amount of the gift was only part of the story. The incident was brought about by an independent booster who had no connection to either university. He was just a fan perhaps with a history, who wanted the player to attend one or the other, and probably had to be frugal. Most of today's allegations, right or wrong, are attached directly to the deep pockets of Universities and their athletic staffs.

[77devil]

The amount of the gift was only part of the story. The incident was brought about by an independent booster who had no connection to either university. He was just a fan perhaps with a history, who wanted the player to attend one or the other, and probably had to be frugal. Most of today's allegations, right or wrong, are attached directly to the deep pockets of Universities and their athletic staffs.

Actually, there was also an Iron Duke who gave said player a sportcoat. I know him well.

[77devil]

And that is your opinion about what Pessah intended to do in his blog.

This is just wrong. I quoted the author and stated he should write exactly what he means by Duke working the system.



By the way, you conveniently left out Pessah's bracketed comment that immediately follows his statement you quote. Why do you think that is?

Wrong again. I acknowledged the bracketed comment as the "oblique reference to Brand and Duhon" because that is exactly what it is. What does the author mean by it in the context of the previous sentence about cash payments? How does one know if he is referring to assistance in parents getting jobs or something else? The fact that most of the Duke community, including me, knows the old accusations, or that he elaborates a little in a post on DBR, does not aleviate the obligation of the author to be precise in a blog article to a general audience.

I guess the good news is that pratically nobody reads his blog(668 views). The guy is totally marginal.



Also, I know what features Pessah has written related to Duke. You are the one claiming that he wrote multiple disapproving articles about Duke. Let's hear what you got. If the "print record" of his "agenda" is so "clear" as you contend, then you should have no trouble providing some citations.

Terrific. Now you know.

[SoCalDukeFan]

First of all, the alleged payments today are for 1 year of service. I think in Jason's time it might have been for four.

It would be nice if the NBA would rescind the 19 year old rule and let players go to the NBA right out of high school. It would be hard for even Kentucky boosters to match the NBA money.

If the NBA won't change the stupid 19 year old rule then the NCAA should say that freshmen are ineligible for basketball (maybe all sports.) Why pay a kid to play freshmen bball? If the NBA pushes the rule back to 20 years old, fine. At least the players will have to be in school for two years. I think many would just go to Europe.

SoCal

[Jarhead]

Actually, there was also an Iron Duke who gave said player a sportcoat. I know him well.

Actually, I belive it was the same guy. He was a member of both State's and Duke's booster organizations. That's why the NCAA nailed both universities with sanctions. And that is why the Iron Dukes has let us know not to get involved in the recruiting process.

I guess our blogger guy is gonna announce those sanctions claiming this forum as his source.

[devildownunder]

You miss the main point of the post - the extension of the first amendment to protecting sources is contextual. IANAL, but the difference between protecting a source in the NYTimes or WaPo and on an internet discussion board is relevant. Frankly, the role of editor in the newspaper is filled by the moderators on this board, and in the case of whether an allegation of a public figure is substantiated enough, a newspaper editor and our moderators here are both making the same choice as to whether that can be printed.

In other words, its fine for DBR to say that "protecting sources" is garbage. It's theeditorial choice of the publishing entity.

Yes, DBR can say and do whatever it wants. Never argued that. I, of course, have the right to disagree with DBR. In this case, I do. Not with their policy, but with the moderator's assertion that the whole concept of protecting sources is garbage. Just because DBR doesn't like it, or thinks it's garbage, doesn't mean I have to. And doesn't mean anyone else has to either. That includes Mr Pessah. He can post what he likes and dbr then has the option to delete it.

That's my point.

[Verga3]

That's your opinion, but insinuations are wide open for interpretation. Here is the quote from the blog post. "For one, Duke doesn’t pay top dollar for talent that some of its competitors offer in college basketball’s underground economy." He didn't write that Duke doesn't pay; he wrote that Duke doesn't pay top dollar. Even though he makes an oblique reference to Brand and Duhon, that the typical reader has no context for, if he meant what you think, why not write it clearly and specifically, particularly about such a controversial and accusatory subject? Why, because he wanted to leave a murky impression to generate hits on his blog site. And he has posted several times since other posters have cited this statement, and the other cash payment information in his first post, and has failed to respond as to exactly what he meant about Duke. t


Jon Pessah,

Please respond in some way to the inference you have left hanging that Coach K cheats, but just not as much as some other schools.

If this inference is wrong, please explain or at least affirm you have seen the posts. Your complete silence to this repeated request is not credible to posters on this board, especially for a visiting professional journalist/guest. Your insight and comments are certainly welcome and appreciated. You have a unique and valuable perspective not shared but by a few, if any, of our members. You may not agree with this assertion, but you risk tarnishing your credibility with your selective silence on this particular issue. Step up or shut up (respectively).

[diveonthefloor]

Nothing is more dangerous and disgusting as a blogger with a preconceived bias, a hidden agenda, and a forum on which to post.

Put up or shut up, indeed.

And prepare for the libel suits if you're wrong.

[cspan37421]

I agree. Corroboration or evidence!

[JG Nothing]

This is just wrong. I quoted the author and stated he should write exactly what he means by Duke working the system.

Wrong again. I acknowledged the bracketed comment as the "oblique reference to Brand and Duhon" because that is exactly what it is. What does the author mean by it in the context of the previous sentence about cash payments? How does one know if he is referring to assistance in parents getting jobs or something else? The fact that most of the Duke community, including me, knows the old accusations, or that he elaborates a little in a post on DBR, does not aleviate the obligation of the author to be precise in a blog article to a general audience.

Here is Pessah's entire quote:

"For one, Duke doesn’t pay top dollar for talent that some of its competitors offer in college basketball’s underground economy. [Not that Duke is completely above working the system. See Brand, Elton, and Duhon, Chris for details.]"

"Working the system" does not refer to breaking the rules. It involves using or manipulating the system for your own advantage. Paying recruits is not working the system; it is flat out cheating. Parents getting jobs because their children play basketball for Duke is an example of working the system. Who knows if his allegations are true, but it has been been suggested in an investigative article in the Times-Picayune. Still, the article does not claim Duke broke any rules. It does, however, imply that the system was worked.


Terrific. Now you know.

Here are links to the two articles Pessah wrote about the Duke lacrosse scandal and its aftermath. Both articles profile members of the Duke community including several of the lacrosse players. Pessah tries to give voice to the perspectives and feelings of each individual profiled. Please tell me how these articles in any significant way express "disapproval" of Duke. Also, please explain Pessah's agenda of these articles. You made the allegation. It would be nice if you could back it up.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncaa/insider/news/story?id=2563683&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnca a%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2563683

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2491696

[Verga3]

Sorry to have to ask this question, but after reading some recent posts I have to ask:

Does anyone NOT want to know what Jon Pessah has to say about his inferences that Coach K cheats?

Jon Pessah, please clarify if you can.

[roywhite]

Sorry to have to ask this question, but after reading some recent posts I have to ask:

Does anyone NOT want to know what Jon Pessah has to say about his inferences that Coach K cheats?

Jon Pessah, please clarify if you can.

No, keep up the good work, Verga...

It's a perfectly reasonable point to press.

[77devil]

Here is Pessah's entire quote:

"For one, Duke doesn’t pay top dollar for talent that some of its competitors offer in college basketball’s underground economy. [Not that Duke is completely above working the system. See Brand, Elton, and Duhon, Chris for details.]"

"Working the system" does not refer to breaking the rules. It involves using or manipulating the system for your own advantage. Paying recruits is not working the system; it is flat out cheating. Parents getting jobs because their children play basketball for Duke is an example of working the system. Who knows if his allegations are true, but it has been been suggested in an investigative article in the Times-Picayune. Still, the article does not claim Duke broke any rules. It does, however, imply that the system was worked.

"Working the system" is ambiguous and completely subject to interpretation. If the author's inference is that Duke officials arranged for the jobs, that is cheating by NCAA definitions. I can't be sure of what the author is implying and neither can you. I never wrote that the author accused Duke of cheating. I wrote that he needs to be precise. You apparently hold the author to a different standard. So be it.

Notwithstanding the above, if the author did not intend to leave an inference that Duke cheats, and instead stretches boundaries of the what is allowable, why not be precise, for example, and write the first sentence "Duke doesn't pay for talent......"?


Here are links to the two articles Pessah wrote about the Duke lacrosse scandal and its aftermath. Both articles profile members of the Duke community including several of the lacrosse players. Pessah tries to give voice to the perspectives and feelings of each individual profiled. Please tell me how these articles in any significant way express "disapproval" of Duke. Also, please explain Pessah's agenda of these articles. You made the allegation. It would be nice if you could back it up.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncaa/insider/news/story?id=2563683&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnca a%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2563683

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2491696

I think they are very slanted. Try this one as well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3373328

Given your interpretation of the blog article in question and the lacrosse pieces, it's obvious we comprehend the English language very differently and will never agree. Such is life.