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View Full Version : Why the Spread Offense is a Good Fit for 2009-10 Devils



AdjustNation
02-08-2010, 11:12 PM
Hey guys this is my first post and I wanted to clue you in on an idea I've been having for a while now. We've all seen how stagnant our offense can become if we're not hitting treys, or how I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. can be contained if he is not posting up. A proposed triangle scheme is the perfect way to eliminate those problems.


http://transition3.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/leftsidetriangle.jpg

In this offense
1 - N. Smith
2 - J. Scheyer
3 - R. Kelly
4 - L. Thomas
5 - K. Singler


Reasons For -

Reasons for Smith at the Triangular 1 - In the triangle offense the One is the main "attacker", Smith would be our Kobe. He would attack the baseline, drive for mid range jumpers, and drive and dish with his athleticism.



Reasons for Scheyer at the Triangular 2 - He would still bring the ball up and initiate the offense. He's going to play the top of the key because he is our more efficient 3 point shooter, and his superior height and vision will allow him to see the entire court to make the best read. He could either post up the smaller guard, shoot the three, or throw it to any of the available players. He provides the Derick Fisher of the offense.


Reasons for Kelly at the Triangular 3 & Singler at the 5 - I know this is a big head scratcher, but he & Singler will provide the Lamar Odom of the offense long players who can take the slower taller defender outside and drive, or post the shorter defender up. Kelly at 6'10 will be mainly guarded by Power forwards who are entirely to slow and are not used to playing the perimeter. If teams switch defenders and have a small forward playing Kelly then his height will allow him to wreak havoc. And Singler at the 5 is the same position for the most part that he played last year posting up smaller players, or taking larger players on the perimiter. With both Kelly and Singler playing interchangeable roles it leaves the defense having to change their entire lineup up.

Reasons for Thomas at the Triangular 4 - For the most part he is our weakest offensive player he can not create his own shot nor can he dominate inside. BUT what he can do is take a good midrange jumper and snag offensive rebounds. He plays opposite to the entire team to allow good spacing and easy 1 on 1 offensive rebound battles that he should win often. Miles, Mason, and Zoubek can all play this role with very little offensive drop off.


I know it isn't a chance in hell we incorporated a triangle offense but it is a theory. Our 4 best offensive players who in the right scheme can rip apart defenses. The motion offense is a good offense but is very taxing, running motion all game with a pressuring defense can lead to tired legs late in games with the big 3 tallying 38+ minutes.



-Adjust Out

94duke
02-09-2010, 07:33 AM
Welcome to the boards! And that is a thoughtful analysis too.

But I don't agree with it. Small problem. That line-up has been on the floor 4 times all season (per Jumbo's cumulative plus/minus thread).
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17971

It just doesn't seem like a good line-up to me.

I don't think Kelly is a better offensive option than either Plumlee. If we can look to feed the post a little more, their scoring will improve.

Saratoga2
02-09-2010, 07:39 AM
Why continue with the stupid I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. references?

slower
02-09-2010, 07:49 AM
Why continue with the stupid I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. references?



Give it a rest. It wasn't particularly witty the first time and now it's just irritating.

UrinalCake
02-09-2010, 08:37 AM
A fun idea, but I'm not convinced Kelly is quite ready to play a prominent role yet. Why not keep our current starting lineup with Kyle at the 3 and Miles at the 5? Based on your descriptions this should still work (though Miles is not on outside shooter) and it wouldn't require Kyle to guard the opposing team's center.

Jarhead
02-09-2010, 08:45 AM
Why continue with the stupid I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. references?


Give it a rest. It wasn't particularly witty the first time and now it's just irritating.

I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. as a name is not only stupid. It is offensive.

AdjustNation
02-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Welcome to the boards! And that is a thoughtful analysis too.

But I don't agree with it. Small problem. That line-up has been on the floor 4 times all season (per Jumbo's cumulative plus/minus thread).
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17971

It just doesn't seem like a good line-up to me.

I don't think Kelly is a better offensive option than either Plumlee. If we can look to feed the post a little more, their scoring will improve.


I looked at the Plus/Minus charts and seen how bad they've been but is it because Kelly only plays 5-6 minutes a game and it's mostly during Stall ball where we aren't trying to score points explosively. I think that it's shrewd. & If Kelly is given the option to play like High School he could really develop..



A fun idea, but I'm not convinced Kelly is quite ready to play a prominent role yet. Why not keep our current starting lineup with Kyle at the 3 and Miles at the 5? Based on your descriptions this should still work (though Miles is not on outside shooter) and it wouldn't require Kyle to guard the opposing team's center.

Thomas would still guard the 5 and Singler would still guard the 3. The Numbers don't correlate to positions in the usual 1-5 way, it's more of a numbering system for the Triangle Offense. I honestly believe that neither Miles, Mason, or Zoubek are ready to take such a prominent active role in the offense. And having Thomas + One of those three on the court makes us a three man show. Kelly has showed aggressiveness and is willing to take the open three. Instead of a 3 man show we could have a 3 Man Show with a Stunt Double.


-Adjust Out

Greg_Newton
02-09-2010, 01:51 PM
A fun idea, but I'm not convinced Kelly is quite ready to play a prominent role yet. Why not keep our current starting lineup with Kyle at the 3 and Miles at the 5? Based on your descriptions this should still work (though Miles is not on outside shooter) and it wouldn't require Kyle to guard the opposing team's center.

I think it's because Miles isn't much of a threat to do anything one-on-one, which you need from the "5" in that offense. Kyle wouldn't need to guard the opposing team's center just because his offensive position is "5", but Lance and Kelly are a bit undersized themselves.

I think it would work better with Mason at the 4 (or even Miles), because then we'd have 1 one of our 3 center-sized players on the floor... plus he's a better finisher and creator than Lance. I also might switch Nolan and Jon, because Jon has been very effective at working his way down the baseline while Nolan seems to thrive breaking defenders down in the open court.

It's an interesting proposition, and might be effective as a change-of-pace type offense IMO, but like others have said, Kelly never even gets double digit minutes... I can't honestly see the payoff being enough to warrant spending significant practice time on it this season.

AdjustNation
02-09-2010, 02:32 PM
I think it's because Miles isn't much of a threat to do anything one-on-one, which you need from the "5" in that offense. Kyle wouldn't need to guard the opposing team's center just because his offensive position is "5", but Lance and Kelly are a bit undersized themselves.

I think it would work better with Mason at the 4 (or even Miles), because then we'd have 1 one of our 3 center-sized players on the floor... plus he's a better finisher and creator than Lance. I also might switch Nolan and Jon, because Jon has been very effective at working his way down the baseline while Nolan seems to thrive breaking defenders down in the open court.

It's an interesting proposition, and might be effective as a change-of-pace type offense IMO, but like others have said, Kelly never even gets double digit minutes... I can't honestly see the payoff being enough to warrant spending significant practice time on it this season.

I just like the full package Lance brings that's the only reason he gets the nod. I put Jon up top because he is our most consistent three point shooter. If you ever seen the offense in motion, once one of the Triangle makes it move than you have the defense collapsing or reactive leaving post players and more importantly the Deep Guard usually open.


Another tid-bit Kelly could be replaced by one of the Plumlees ( I see Thomas as irreplaceable ) it would make the offense essentially a motion offense where the 3 is only there to feed passes in and out to the 1,5,2 positions. Kelly is the only other player with the ability to attack, Singler is our best post player and most versatile so in this inverted offense he's the Shaq & Lamar Odom. If you watch the video below you can see more in depth of the mindset I have than I could ever tell you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTead3GXycE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

SilkyJ
02-09-2010, 06:33 PM
If you watch the video below you can see more in depth of the mindset I have than I could ever tell you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTead3GXycE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

When run properly its a thing of beauty, but its also easy to run properly when you have perennial all stars Kobe Freaking-Bryant and Pau Gasol as well as long time veterans Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom. Those guys have about 40+ years of pro experience between them; our guys are not that well oiled of a machine.

RoyalBlue08
02-09-2010, 06:40 PM
I am confused. why does this thread title ask for a spread offense and then describe to me the triangle offense? (Regardless, I don't think this is a very good idea. Putting Kyle at the 5 in the triangle would mean he would be guarded by the other teams best post defender, whom he would have a hard time scoring against with his back to the basket. But I am just a fan, I don't know that much.)

wolfpackdevil
02-09-2010, 06:42 PM
Why continue with the stupid I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. references?

Hey nice post man. Way to see you're so positive while posting on the board.

AdjustNation
02-09-2010, 07:43 PM
When run properly its a thing of beauty, but its also easy to run properly when you have perennial all stars Kobe Freaking-Bryant and Pau Gasol as well as long time veterans Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom. Those guys have about 40+ years of pro experience between them; our guys are not that well oiled of a machine.

It wouldn't be that hard of a transition from our motion offense.



I am confused. why does this thread title ask for a spread offense and then describe to me the triangle offense? (Regardless, I don't think this is a very good idea. Putting Kyle at the 5 in the triangle would mean he would be guarded by the other teams best post defender, whom he would have a hard time scoring against with his back to the basket. But I am just a fan, I don't know that much.)

Spread Triangle Offense was the supposed title was a type-o. Not trying to be an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. but you do realize that players are guarded by who ever the coach wants them to. For example Kobe plays the 1 in the offense in the pro's but he is NEVER guarded by the teams point guard. It's like a pick-up game the tallest player who could be playing the point guard won't be guarded by the same person that brings the ball up. Even if kyle is checked by the 5 do you realize how often he could beat him off the dribble and how many other good match-ups we would have after that.

greybeard
02-09-2010, 07:43 PM
I believe that in the Triangle the pivot point is higher, just short of where the lane meets the foul line, and the person in the pivot is often the principal scorer, aka MJ or Kobe, or their seconds.

LA runs something with Gasol in that spot, where MJ is the man out top, the top of the foul line extended. The guy in the corner clears space for Gasol to attack the basket or go to the baseline for a pull up, throw it out to Kobe who has one-on-one with the option of using Gasol as a screen going toward the middle or taking it to an open baseline with no one around to double team when Kobe spins back to the middle. Gasol would be diving back door, and Kobe either hits him or if Gasol's man catches up has the middle to himself or can kick to the backcourt guy on the other side for a three.

The only difference between this Triangle option and the one in which the major scorer or his second is at the vortex (pivot) is that in this option, while Gasol is very dangerous and must be convinced he is well defended or he will go, the main option here is still Kobe. In your diagram that would be Kelly not Smith.

I'd love to go to a workshop run by Tex Winter and here the Man really describe the workings of the Triangle. Ditto for Carrill and the Princeton. The two are the vestiges of what I like to think of as the golden era of basketball, which kind of ended for a time with the demise of Red Holtzman's Knicks.

RoyalBlue08
02-10-2010, 12:21 PM
Spread Triangle Offense was the supposed title was a type-o. Not trying to be an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. but you do realize that players are guarded by who ever the coach wants them to. For example Kobe plays the 1 in the offense in the pro's but he is NEVER guarded by the teams point guard. It's like a pick-up game the tallest player who could be playing the point guard won't be guarded by the same person that brings the ball up. Even if kyle is checked by the 5 do you realize how often he could beat him off the dribble and how many other good match-ups we would have after that.

I agree with you that any of the 5 players the opposing coach has on the floor can guard any of our five players. However, if we put Kyle in the post repeatedly, and we have no other post players on the floor, the 5 (or the 4) is going to have to guard Kyle. So, like I said, in the lineup you are suggesting I think our best option would be to have Kyle take that bigger man guarding him off the dribble (much like our offense last year). I'm fine with that, but it is not exactly the triangle offense anymore.