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House G
02-07-2010, 09:53 AM
There have been many great college B-ball teams that did not win the National Championship. The one-and-done format of the NCAA tournament pretty much guarantees this. For those team offered, explain why you think they were great, why they failed, and perhaps some of their noteworthy players.

To start the discussion, I submit the 1973-74 Maryland team. They are thought to be the greatest team never to play in the NCAA tournament. At that time, only the winner of the ACC tournament qualified for the NCAA tournament. Maryland had the misfortune of losing to eventual national champion NC State (and David Thompson) in the finals of the ACC tournament 103-100 in overtime. This game was instrumental because it led to expansion of the NCAA tournament field to 32 teams, allowing at-large berths and more than one team from the same conference. This Maryland team had six future NBA draft picks, including John Lucas, Tom McMillen, Len Elmore, and Mo Howard.

Kedsy
02-07-2010, 10:00 AM
To start the discussion, I submit the 1973-74 Maryland team. They are thought to be the greatest team never to play in the NCAA tournament.

I assume you mean the greatest team not on probation and not to play in the tournament? The 1972-73 State team was undefeated and essentially the same team who won the NCAA championship the following year. They're not the only example of a great team who couldn't play because of NCAA sanctions.

chrisheery
02-07-2010, 10:00 AM
I think the UNLV team that lost to the 1991 team has a claim. As does the 1999 Duke team.

jgehtland
02-07-2010, 10:02 AM
Duke '99 -- lost only to Cincinnati, and the finals against UConn.

UNLV '91 -- drubbed us by 30 the previous year, undefeated until we knocked them off

Illinois '95 -- pretty clearly an awesome team, lost in the finals to UNC

Houston '83 -- The day that made Jim Valvano, prior to the day that made Jim Valvano.

moonpie23
02-07-2010, 10:05 AM
you could make a case for the 1970 gamecocks...john roche and co ripped thru the acc and then lost to nc state in the acc chapionship game when roche was injured in the previous night's game..

they were on the cover of sports illustrated as the "possible" team to dethrone ucla.....

arnie
02-07-2010, 10:07 AM
Has to be the 1924 UNC team - after all, the Helms Foundation knew they were the best. Plus we all know they would have swept Eastern competition on the way to the championship despite never winning a game against the same competion in the decade of the 1920's.

chrisheery
02-07-2010, 10:17 AM
You mean Illinois 2005? I don't think they should be in the conversation. Really nice team, but not at the level of the others.

Indoor66
02-07-2010, 10:24 AM
How about Duke, 1965-1966?

Marin, Lewis, Vacindak, Riedy, Verga and Bubas as the coach.

sagegrouse
02-07-2010, 11:00 AM
Kansas with Wilt Chamberlain, losing to UNC in triple overtime.

sagegrouse

Tom B.
02-07-2010, 11:03 AM
The 1984-85 Georgetown team has to be in the conversation somewhere. Defending champs, Patrick Ewing's senior year, lost to Villanova 66-64 in the title game.

coachbob
02-07-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm partial to the 1986 Duke team.
I will forever hate louisville and have never been able to watch that game again.

Olympic Fan
02-07-2010, 11:18 AM
To start the discussion, I submit the 1973-74 Maryland team. They are thought to be the greatest team never to play in the NCAA tournament. At that time, only the winner of the ACC tournament qualified for the NCAA tournament. Maryland had the misfortune of losing to eventual national champion NC State (and David Thompson) in the finals of the ACC tournament 103-100 in overtime. This game was instrumental because it led to expansion of the NCAA tournament field to 32 teams, allowing at-large berths and more than one team from the same conference. This Maryland team had six future NBA draft picks, including John Lucas, Tom McMillen, Len Elmore, and Mo Howard.

Boy, the longer into the past it goes, the more the myth of that Maryland team grows.

Look, they were good, but "the greatest team never to play in the NCAA Tournament"?

Give me a break. They finished three games behind N.C. State in the ACC standings and tied with North Carolina for second place. Yes, they came heartbreakingly close to upsetting N.C. State in the ACC Tournament finals, but if it wasn't for the ACC's unique tournament (in that era, only the ACC and the Southern Conferences choose their champions in a tournament), Maryland would have been eliminated from NCAA with two games to go in the regular season.

You've got to understand that in that era, A LOT of good teams were denied the chance to compete in the NCAA Tournament because the NCAA only took one team per conference. You might look at Southern Cal in 1971, when Bob Boyd's Trojans finished 24-2 (better than Maryland in '74) with the two losses coming by one point and by eight points to eventual national champion UCLA (unbeaten that year). Because they were second in the Pac Eight, USC did not get a bid to the NCAA Tournament even though they were ranked No. 2 in the nation most of the season.

There were also plenty of probation teams that didn't get a chance -- N.C. State in 1973 has been mentioned, but what about Kentucky in 1951 -- the Wildcats spent the entire season at No. 1 but were banned from the tournament.

Kentucky also has a different kind of claim in 1954. Again, Kentucky was the consensus No. 1 team after the season. They weren't on probabtion, but they were trapped by a change in the NCAA rules that limited players to three varsity seasons. Three Kentucky senior starters -- including All-American Frank Ramsey -- had played as freshmen (when it was legal), but under the boneheaded NCAA ruling (I'm not a big Kentucky fan, but they certainly have my sympathy in this case), Ramsey and his two senior mates were banned from the NCAA Tournament, so Kentucky declined a bid.

I'm just saying that if you look at basketball history,you'll find A LOT of teams with better claims than that '74 Maryland team. What about the George Mikan DePaul teams that were widely acknowledged as the nation's best team during WWII -- but elected to play in the NIT rather than the NCAA.

As for Maryland's "six future draft picks" that's also a kind of exaggeration. Yes, Tom McMillen, Len Elmore and John Lucas were eventual first round picks, which is impressive ... Mo Howard was a second round pick, Tom Roy was a third round pick and Owen Brown was a ninth round pick ... meaning that Roy and Brown wouldn't be drafted under today's rules.

Again, I don't want to imply that Maryland wasn't a very good team in 1974 and their dramatic loss to N.C. State in the 1974 ACC Finals DID help spur the move to allow more than one team per conference into the NCAA Tournament (although that was already in the works before that game).

But to suggest they are the best team never to win the NCAA Tournament or even the best never to play in the tournament is not justified.

The five best ACC teams not to win the NCAA Tournament IMHO:

1. Duke 1999 (if Trajan Langdon hits the gamewinner against UConn, we'd remember this as the greatest team in ACC history -- NOBODY dominated the league like they did).

2. State 1973 -- one of the ACC's only two perfect teams

3. South Carolina 1970 -- 14-0 in the ACC regular season -- and until 1999 Duke, the most dominant regular season ACC run ever.

4. UNC 1984 -- you talk about Maryland's six draft picks. This team had national POY Michael Jordan, three-time first team A-A Sam Perkins, future No. 1 NBA draft pick Brad Daugherty, Kenny Smith and Joe Wolf -- five future first-round picks, plus Steve Hale, Dave Popson and Warren Martin (fourth round picks), Matt Doherty (sixth round pick), Curtis Hunter (seventh round pick) and Cecil Exum (a ninth-round pick ... same as Owen Brown). That's 11 -- count them, 11! -- future NBA draft picks on the roster together. Kenny Smith's broken wrist derailed the most talented team in ACC history.

5. NC State 1956 -- No. 2 in the nation and projected as the only team capable of dethroning defending champ San Francisco. But a broken wrist suffered by ACC POY Ronnie Shavlik in the last regular season game and some questionable officiating in the NCAA opener in New York (ACC teams ALWAYS got screwed by the refs in the Garden in that era), ruined their season.

I would submit that all five were better than the '74 Terps.

BlueintheFace
02-07-2010, 11:25 AM
In no particular order, my top 5 of the top of my head:

Duke 1999

UNLV 1991

Goergetown 1985

South Carolina 1970

Carolina 1984

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-07-2010, 11:46 AM
How about Ohio State in 1961?

OSU was defending national champs and was unbeaten going into tournament; featured Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Larry Siegfried, Mel Nowell and Bob Knight (yes, that Bob Knight).

Lost to Cincinnati in NCAA championship game.

Same result in 1962; OSU team (minus Siegfried & Knight, plus Gary Bradds) lost to Cinci in final.

House G
02-07-2010, 11:50 AM
I'm partial to the 1986 Duke team.
I will forever hate louisville and have never been able to watch that game again.
I agree! I was at that game and Duke lost at the very end of the game after most of their front line had fouled out--a real heartbreaker. That Duke team only lost 3 games by a total of 13 points. Although not nearly as dominant as 98-99 (IMO), they had 3 first round NBA draft picks, including the inimitable Johnny D.

should_be_working
02-07-2010, 01:43 PM
How about the 2002 Duke team. We were set to repeat, but took an early exit in the sweet 16 to Indiana at Rupp Arena. I was there, first Duke game I've ever seen, and one i'd rather forget.

DukeSince'77
02-07-2010, 01:45 PM
For me, without question, Duke '99 and '86...

2 awesome teams that were denied their true destiny!!

hurleyfor3
02-07-2010, 01:59 PM
No one's mentioned Carolina '94 yet.

They weren't a great team -- Dean's inability to get the freshman to buy into the system that year was the problem -- but they were unbelievably talented.

Also Kansas '97. We could limit the discussion to teams coached by Dean Smith and his disciples and run to multiple pages... Carolina '77 lost the title game because Dean went to Four Corners too early, he ran the table in the ACC in '87 too...

uh_no
02-07-2010, 03:07 PM
Duke '99 -- lost only to Cincinnati, and the finals against UConn.

UNLV '91 -- drubbed us by 30 the previous year, undefeated until we knocked them off

Illinois '95 -- pretty clearly an awesome team, lost in the finals to UNC

Houston '83 -- The day that made Jim Valvano, prior to the day that made Jim Valvano.

I know you all hate this, but the 2006 uconn team....rudy gay, josh boone, marcus williams, rashad anderson, hilton armstrong, denham brown....I think they had 5 guys drafted.....4 in the first round....2 lottery....

Farlan
02-07-2010, 03:08 PM
Since I only really care about Duke:

1978 Duke -- I remember thinking no big deal after losing to Kentucky b/c we had everyone back the next year so we would win it then...no such luck

1986 Duke -- what a heartbreaker... I think if we play Louisville 10 times we would win 8 or 9 of them but that night Nervous Pervis was on fire

1999 Duke -- still not sure what happened to that team, maybe not enough upperclassmen leadership.

dukemsu
02-07-2010, 03:14 PM
1986 Duke, for the reasons stated by others.

1999 Duke, for the reasons stated by others.

1975 Indiana, which possibly would have been undefeated with much the same crew as the 76 team, had Scott May not broken his leg late in the season. They almost beat Kentucky in the regional final without him. That was a phenomenal 2 year run.

dukemsu

davekay1971
02-07-2010, 03:37 PM
I always have to qualify "...ever" questions with my own time limitations. I can't claim any significant knowledge about teams I never saw. That puts my time frame about 1978 on.

In that time, UNLV 1991 was the most dominant team I've seen that didn't win. Not only were they undefeated coming into the game against us, no one had even challenged them. They were just a devastating team, with NBA talent at the 1-4 positions. What no one (including me as a Duke undergrad at that time) realized, was just how much of a difference a year of experience for Hurley and the addition of Grant Hill would make. It was a huge upset...but Duke was still a heck of a lot better than anyone realized.

Duke 1999 is the next in that conversation. That team probably would have given UNLV 1991 a very even game (in fact, watching matchups like Avery-Anthony, Brand-Johnson, Langdon-Hunt would have been very cool). But that team did have one loss coming into the game, whereas UNLV 1991 had won every game, including a dominant performance against then number 2 Arkansas.

UNC 1983 and UNC 1984 are next. They were truly great teams, and (all due respect to Dean Smith) Coach K would have not made the mistake of sticking dogmatically to the "system" with a burgeoning talent like Michael Jordan capable to utterly dominating every team he faced.

Duke 1986...I love the team, but where do they stand against teams like Duke 99 or UNLV 91? I don't think that team had the same level of raw talent as Houston 1983, UNC 83 or 84, UNLV 91, or Duke 1999.

brevity
02-07-2010, 03:40 PM
You mean Illinois 2005? I don't think they should be in the conversation. Really nice team, but not at the level of the others.

While I agree -- they'd at best barely make the top 10 of a list like this -- they are the most recent example of a Team of Destiny that was ultimately denied.

I used to predict the Final Four a year in advance, and after the 2004 tournament I decided that 2005 would be Illinois' year. Which, of course, made me follow them closely the whole season.

They did not disappoint, winning their first 29 games and keeping the #1 ranking for, like, 3 months. They lost by 1 point at Ohio State in their regular season finale, but kept the overall top seed. But what really went in their favor was geography -- their NCAA itinerary took them to Indianapolis, then Chicago (Rosemont), then St. Louis. They could take a bus and win a national title.

They almost didn't make the Final Four. This was the year where three of the Regional Finals went into overtime -- a rare time when the second weekend of the tournament may have been better than the first. They trailed Arizona by double digits with less than 5 minutes to play, but pulled out the win in an extra period.

Unfortunately, their Finals opponent was quickly developing their own claim to destiny -- after UNC's questionable 3rd round win, momentum was swinging in their direction, and announcers were orgasmic about Sean May's great hands. I've never understood that one.

In case you're curious, the rest of my predicted 2005 Final Four were Louisville (which made it), Kansas (which lost to Bucknell in the 1st round), and Villanova (you know what happened to them).

barjwr
02-07-2010, 10:22 PM
Agree w/ Duke '86 & '99; for non-duke teams, I like Kansas '97: lost 2 games - triple OT @ biggest rival (Missouri) and champ Arizona in tourney.

Chicago 1995
02-07-2010, 10:52 PM
1975 Indiana probably has to be near the top of the list. If Scott May doesn't get hurt in the regional finals, IU likely wins in 1975 and 1976, not just 1976.

While the 2005 Illinois team had a better regular season, as someone who grew up in Illinois and went to law school there, I'd argue that 1989 Illinois team was probably the better Illinois team that didn't win the title. They were undefeated until the Semis when Kendall Gill was healthy.

The 1993 Indiana and Michigan teams -- Indiana lost Alan Henderson late in the year with a knee injury, and it killed them -- might be on the list.

One of the Houston teams with Olajuwon -- maybe the 1982 team with Drexler and Hakeem -- probably deserves a mention.

1984 and 1994 Carolina, among others, should be somewhere on the list.

I'd put 1986 and 1999 on the list for Duke. It's probably a little blasphemous, but UMD was better than we were in 2002. They were the best team and deserved that title.

Chris T
02-07-2010, 10:54 PM
I think the top two would be 99 Duke and 91 UNLV. Two extremely dominating basketball teams. I think another Duke team that definately was a outstanding team that lost was the 02 team. That team fielded four current NBA regulars and a potential superstar guard in Jason Williams if not for his off court mistakes.

oldnavy
02-08-2010, 07:33 AM
91 UNLV. Everyone had pretty much given them the title until Bobby Hurley hit what has to be the greatest shot in Duke history!

Udaman
02-08-2010, 09:59 AM
Oklahoma in 1988 that lost to Kansas.

Syracuse in 1989-90. Loaded with talent and underachieved.

Of course there's Duke 99.

Olympic Fan
02-08-2010, 11:24 AM
One of the Houston teams with Olajuwon -- maybe the 1982 team with Drexler and Hakeem -- probably deserves a mention.


The '83 and '84 Houston teams were better than '82.

Hakeem was still a developing player in '82 -- he didn't even start. Their top scorer that year was Rob Williams, a chubby guard was was very much like Donald Williams of UNC fame -- a very erratic scorer (just a note: UNC shut down Williams in the '82 semifinals ... Drexler had 20 and played well; Hakeem played 20 minutes off the bench and had two points and six rebounds).

A year later Hakeem had matured into a stud ... Drexler, Michael Young and Michaex were still around. The team that beat Louisville in the semifinal dunkathon, then lost to State in the finals was much better than the previous team.

The '84 team had an even better Kakeem in the middle, but Drexler was gone and so was Michaeux.

So I'd say the '83 team that lost to State was easily the best of that three straight Final Four run.

Good call on Indiana 1975 -- I've heard Coach K (a grad assistant then) say that was a better team than the undefeated '76 team. Just one quibble -- wasn't May's injury a broken arm (not a leg)? And I'm pretty sure it happened late in the season, not the tournament. I could be remembering wrong, but I think he played in that regional finals loss to Kentucky with a cast on his arm.

I'd rate Scott May's injury with Kenny Smith's injury in 1984, Ron Shavlik's broken wrist in 1956 and Bob Verga's strepthroat in 1966 as three of the most pivotal injuries in NCAA history.

Jackson
02-08-2010, 02:52 PM
Duke 1999 ranks as my top one of all time. Heck, our 6th man Corey Maggette could have been the greatest athlete Duke has ever had. NPOY Elton Brand, All American Trajon Langdon, NDPOY Shane Battier, Chris Carrawell, William Avery, Nate James. Heck, Chris Burgess, who was the nations top rated recruit two years earlier couldn't get off of the bench. Our closest ACC win was at Georgia Tech and we won by 10. WE played our worst two games at the end of the season, squeaking by MIchigan State and then losing to UCONN...disappointing to me still after 11 years of reflection.

crimsonandblue
02-08-2010, 03:05 PM
Agree w/ Duke '86 & '99; for non-duke teams, I like Kansas '97: lost 2 games - triple OT @ biggest rival (Missouri) and champ Arizona in tourney.

Pierce, LaFrentz, Pollard and Vaughn all played for years in the NBA. Billy Thomas and Ryan Robertson had cups of coffee (Thomas is still knocking around picking up the occasional Wizards ten-day contract in some years). Jerod Haase is coaching for a gang up the road from you all.

Fun team to watch. Just shot poorly from deep on occasion and ran into a quicker Arizona team that was on a run that took them through three one-seeds. What a gruesome end.

shoutingncu
02-08-2010, 03:46 PM
Probably not on the level of the others and, hence, not mentioned yet, but I'll always love Carolina 1998.

Antawn and Vince giving inside out supremacy.
Cota dishing.
Role players Shammond and Ademola.
Front court depth (and shame) Makhtar.

Three conference losses, each avenged in the ACC tournament.

Played a bad game on the wrong day against Utah.

Chicago 1995
02-08-2010, 03:54 PM
The '83 and '84 Houston teams were better than '82.

Hakeem was still a developing player in '82 -- he didn't even start. Their top scorer that year was Rob Williams, a chubby guard was was very much like Donald Williams of UNC fame -- a very erratic scorer (just a note: UNC shut down Williams in the '82 semifinals ... Drexler had 20 and played well; Hakeem played 20 minutes off the bench and had two points and six rebounds).

A year later Hakeem had matured into a stud ... Drexler, Michael Young and Michaex were still around. The team that beat Louisville in the semifinal dunkathon, then lost to State in the finals was much better than the previous team.

The '84 team had an even better Kakeem in the middle, but Drexler was gone and so was Michaeux.

So I'd say the '83 team that lost to State was easily the best of that three straight Final Four run.

Good call on Indiana 1975 -- I've heard Coach K (a grad assistant then) say that was a better team than the undefeated '76 team. Just one quibble -- wasn't May's injury a broken arm (not a leg)? And I'm pretty sure it happened late in the season, not the tournament. I could be remembering wrong, but I think he played in that regional finals loss to Kentucky with a cast on his arm.

I'd rate Scott May's injury with Kenny Smith's injury in 1984, Ron Shavlik's broken wrist in 1956 and Bob Verga's strepthroat in 1966 as three of the most pivotal injuries in NCAA history.

Last night I couldn't remember if Drexler was on the 1983 team or not. Had I realized he was, I would have that team as being on the list ahead of the 1982 team. (Side note: While Hakeen was raw in 1982, how about this seven man team from that Final Four: Hakeem, Clyde, Ewing, Floyd, Jordan, Worthy & Perkins?) Michael Young and Larry "Mr. Mean" Micheaux were really good college players.

May's injury was a broken arm. My bad.

Kenyon Martin's injury in 2000, as silly as it might sound, should probably be somewhere near that list, given how good Cincy had been 2000.

houstondukie
02-08-2010, 10:47 PM
1. Duke 1999 (if Trajan Langdon hits the gamewinner against UConn, we'd remember this as the greatest team in ACC history -- NOBODY dominated the league like they did).



I agree, especially the part about the ACC dominance:

'98-'99 DUKE went 16-0 in the ACC regular season and won the ACC tournament, 19-0 overall in the ACC.

The closest ACC game that season was an 8-point win against Georgia Tech, and that was the only single-digit ACC win.

15 of those 19 wins were by at least 18-points, 8 wins by at least 25 points.

Poor UVA lost by 46 points not once, but twice. They improved and only lost by 37 in the ACC tourney.

dukestheheat
02-08-2010, 10:54 PM
Our 1999 team.

I still cannot figure out how we lost that game to UConn.

dth.

dukestheheat
02-08-2010, 10:56 PM
I agree, especially the part about the ACC dominance:

'98-'99 DUKE went 16-0 in the ACC regular season and won the ACC tournament, 19-0 overall in the ACC.

The closest ACC game that season was an 8-point win against Georgia Tech, and that was the only single-digit ACC win.

15 of those 19 wins were by at least 18-points, 8 wins by at least 25 points.

Poor UVA lost by 46 points not once, but twice. They improved and only lost by 37 in the ACC tourney.

....the 1999 team averaged a win-margin of just over 20 points per game that year, or something like that? Anyway, they were a fully dominant team and there is no doubt about that.

dth.

brevity
02-09-2010, 03:28 AM
I know you all hate this, but the 2006 uconn team....rudy gay, josh boone, marcus williams, rashad anderson, hilton armstrong, denham brown....I think they had 5 guys drafted.....4 in the first round....2 lottery....

Talented group of individuals, but I view that team more like the Best Team Available than All-Time Great. Words like "destiny" and "invincibility" didn't describe them or any team that year (not even the eventual champ, Florida). A little bit like Kansas 2010.

Now, if the Connecticut women manage not to win a title this year, they'd have to make the discussion. A wire-to-wire #1 team playing every top 10 team available and just trouncing them.