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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 66 - BC 63 Post-Game Thread



Bob Green
02-06-2010, 04:17 PM
Discuss the game here.

BlueintheFace
02-06-2010, 04:19 PM
Zoubek won that game for us in so many ways

roywhite
02-06-2010, 04:19 PM
Whew.

Scheyer and Smith hit free throws in the last minute.

Freshmen made mistakes down the stretch---fouls, missed foul shots, but that's part of the learning process.

A road win in the ACC = good thing!

GoingFor#5
02-06-2010, 04:19 PM
I don't know what that was in the last few minutes. Very uncharacteristic of us. Other than that, I thought we played pretty well despite the slow start.

BTW, in all his years, Mike Patrick still does not understand that Zoubek was coming in to get a rebound and not for ballhandling purposes? LOL!

DukeUsul
02-06-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm absolutely thirlled to come out of there with a win, considering the less than 48 hour turnaround from our last game. I'm not going to stress out over any of our sloppiness.

CLT Devil
02-06-2010, 04:20 PM
Its amazing how much our interior defense is hurt when Lance is out of the game. He brings a lot of energy and versatility and when he fouls out there tend to be a lot of layups from the other team.

A win is a win. Bring on the Tarholes.....

grossbus
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
"Zoubek won that game for us in so many way"

agree completely.

RoyalBlue08
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Very business-like win for us. Didn't play great, but between two huge emotional games and on the road, it was great to pull out a win. Who's next?

mike88
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Good games by Nolan, Jon, and Z. Lance played well but is still fouling too much. Kyle played well but his judgment on shot selection was not as good today. I hope our younger guys can still improve, as we need them to get better if we want to win the ACC tournament and go deep in the NCAAs. Regardless of how UNC is playing, Wednesday is going to be tough for us . . . we are just not very good on the road yet.

Duvall
02-06-2010, 04:21 PM
I don't know what that was in the last few minutes. Very uncharacteristic of us. Other than that, I thought we played pretty well despite the slow start.


Duke guards well for 37 minutes, then fouls every trip in the last three. Weird. Thomas fouling out really didn't help.

karmacoma
02-06-2010, 04:22 PM
...but road wins have been hard to come by this year, so I guess this win was special. Something akin to "Survivor: Conte Forum Edition."

Glad we were playing BC this afternoon, and not an upper echelon team. Really feel like our bigs (esp. Miles and Mason) need to get more comfortable and confident on the road for us to succeed consistently away from Cameron.

JaMarcus Russell
02-06-2010, 04:22 PM
Mike Patrick really makes the game hard to watch. It was kind of funny seeing the close-ups on him though. The guy could barely keep his eyes open.

Mason does something very stupid every time he misses a free throw or a good shot. He tries to pry the ball out of his opponent's hands and of course gets called for a foul. He has to stop doing that if he wants to get more playing time.

Smith and Scheyer carried us, but Zoubek was also really clutch with his rebounds and smart defensive play outside of his first half foul with 2 seconds to go.

I really wanted Dawkins and Kelly to knock down those free throws so they would get more confidence.

CameronDuke
02-06-2010, 04:23 PM
Great to get another road win in the conference. Sole possession of first place and rolling into Chapel Hill on a hot streak, winning two straight.

However, another poor shooting performace from Singler who is inconsistent this season. Gutty effort from Nolan who took over down the stretch. Scheyer was a senior leader and Zoubek had some great rebounds and tipped balls. We must shoot better from 3-point range and from the line to have any chance in the NCAA Tournament this season, which is possible. We currently have NO inside game and rely on our big three, all of whom are guards or undersized big men, to win games.

Go to Hell Carolina.

Newton_14
02-06-2010, 04:24 PM
Got what we went up there for: A road win. Not pretty at the end but guys stepped up and made free throws. If LT does not foul out it never gets that close. Good to see Kelly growing up and Andre was pumped after the Nolan shake and bake lay up near the end and was really pumped after the game.

Good to see!!

Go Duke and GTHC GTH 9F9F9F9F

Greg_Newton
02-06-2010, 04:24 PM
Nolan continues to establish himself as our go-to-guy. Dude is ice.

I love, love, love the return to the motion offense. We look infinitely better when we are concentrating on executing it well.

I thought it was interesting how much K played Mason and Kelly down the stretch, despite their mistakes. This was the kind of trial-by-fire a lot of us were calling for earlier in the year - it certainly cost us some points, and almost the game, but you've got to think that kind of experience will do wonders for the two freshies. Even just knowing K developed enough confidence in them to be on the floor in that situation is big.

I was shocked to see Dawkins come in at the end though. What on earth is going on here?

And lastly, it was great how happy and pumped the guys looked after the game. Even Andre looked like he was 100% enjoying the W and part of the team, which was nice to see.

SCMatt33
02-06-2010, 04:25 PM
If I'm not mistaken, I think this was our first game of the year where we were ahead by 2 possessions or less in the last minute. Lance fouling out was pretty important because we had trouble putting four good foul shooters on the floor and it showed. I don't really fault the freshman because Kelly had only taken two all year, and it had been a while since Dawkins had shot any. That's a tough spot for them. Great job on the last two possessions forcing tough shots, even if they hit one of them.

dyedwab
02-06-2010, 04:25 PM
Less than two days after beating one of the most physical teams we play in one of the most physical games of the year.

After the longest road trip to an in-conference game.

We got a great win...we were tough enough to hang on. Even though we were clearly physically tired, we here getting to loose balls.

Great win.

I agree with the praise for Zoubek. He was the man today.

hq2
02-06-2010, 04:28 PM
Another Triple S effort. Almost nothing from anyone else. Glad they hit some
free throws down the stretch. Andre must be in K's doghouse, not playing until
the end in a game like that. He still has time to turn it around for the tournament, but he needs to do something to get it going?

CAT Blue Devil
02-06-2010, 04:29 PM
Notwithstanding the lack of foul discipline away from the ball during the last three minutes, I am pleased about this game.

1. Nice to see Dawkins in the game with something asked of him.

2. Help defense and talking seemed much better than the recent games other than Georgia Tech. Lance seems to be key to this.

3. Scheyer decision making in the lane and looking to involve the interior players in scoring.

Good win. Nice to see the team smiling as they walked off the court.

Welcome2DaSlopes
02-06-2010, 04:29 PM
Nolan Smith season's stats are very similer to those of Scottie Reynolds. But with a lot less national attention.

HB TAYLOR
02-06-2010, 04:29 PM
Big win on the road! Stop the freaking slow down game, play aggressive until the final buzzer. GO DUKE!

CDu
02-06-2010, 04:29 PM
Survival is about the best way to sum this up. Any road win right now counts as a good win.

But at some point, the lightswitch needs to flip on for the Plumlees. We really need to get more than 27 minutes, 2 points, 7 rebounds, and 5 fouls.

Great game from Scheyer, Smith, and Zoubek. Smith and Scheyer were so efficient offensively and carried us when nobody else really showed up offensively. And Zoubek gave us 24 minutes with only one foul! He was a big factor considering that Thomas fouled out and the Plumlees struggled.

Hopefully we take advantage of a big of time off and get geared up for the UNC game.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-06-2010, 04:32 PM
Three words: blue road uniforms ;)

RockLobster
02-06-2010, 04:33 PM
Most of this game was good, but we have to play 40 minutes of basketball.

We let BC walk right down the lane a few too many times, that's how they made that little run at the end. Our interior D needs to be a little better positionally.

Mason looks a little bit lost out there, he disappointed me today...it seems like every time he gets the ball, he has no idea what to do next, worse than Zoubek. Unless he has a great practice, I'd rather see a little less of him against CH.

We did a great job staying on our discipline at the end to hit those free throws and keep BC from tying the game. It would have been really easy to fold in that situation.

If we tighten up the inside D a little bit and actually hit our free throws during the game, we'll be fine against CH.

Mike Corey
02-06-2010, 04:34 PM
"Win and stay healthy." - Grandma Krzyzewski

mo.st.dukie
02-06-2010, 04:35 PM
If I'm not mistaken, I think this was our first game of the year where we were ahead by 2 possessions or less in the last minute.

Yep, that was the first close game that we actually won this year, that's a good sign because there will most certainly be games like that in the tourney.

Mike Corey
02-06-2010, 04:36 PM
Nolan Smith season's stats are very similer to those of Scottie Reynolds. But with a lot less national attention.

Scottie Reynolds:
18.5 ppg, 3.4 apg, 2.9 rpg, 1.6 spg

Nolan Smith:
18.0 ppg, 3.1 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.3 spg

GODUKEGO
02-06-2010, 04:38 PM
That is what is called an ugly win. Several opportunities to put them away in the second half and did not (turnovers silly fouls etc...). Singler's miss on the 3 with 25 seconds left on the shot clock at the end almost cost us. Ever since the G-Tech game when the announcer stated we are the best free throw shooting team, we are 39-62 62.9%. It is the Sports Illustrated cover jinx. We will have to play much better and smarter on Wednesday!!! On the last two BC's misses , not the last one, we had three and four guys under the basket and BC had one and both times they got the rebound. BOX OUT!!!!

Kfanarmy
02-06-2010, 04:38 PM
Andre must be in K's doghouse, not playing until
the end in a game like that. I thought K putting him in at that point in time showed K has confidence in Andre's heart....no matter what else is going on

dukebluelemur
02-06-2010, 04:39 PM
Got what we went up there for: A road win. Not pretty at the end but guys stepped up and made free throws. If LT does not foul out it never gets that close. Good to see Kelly growing up and Andre was pumped after the Nolan shake and bake lay up near the end and was really pumped after the game.

Good to see!!

Go Duke and GTHC GTH 9F9F9F9F

With all due respect to you and to a certainly nice young man, how was Kelly "growing up"? Sure he got 7 minutes, but I didn't see anything productive come from them. 1 rebound, 1 point, and 4 fouls. I didn't see any particularly good defense. I really hope you're right, but it just feels to me like Kelly is getting minutes because he's the last perimeter option left, with Dre in the doghouse.

I've been hard on LT in his time here, but I've got to give him credit, he's been an important part of the team this year, especially recently. Rebounding well for his frame and playing scrappy defense.

I too was pleased to see Dawkins visibly excited in the huddle towards the end. It would be easy to get down when you're not getting any minutes. Gives me hope his season will turn around and we will see him back next year.

And thank goodness for the big three. 54-12

roywhite
02-06-2010, 04:39 PM
Coach K in the postgame...
played 15-20 points better than BC...left points on floor by failing to finish inside and shot bad from FT...missed 1-and-1's...didn't increase the lead when we had chances...executed well down the stretch, didn't make turnovers...Jackson's 3 was well defended...defended Trapani well...good defense by zoubs at the end...heckuva win for us...didn't come easy...defense on the road was good...would have been really tough loss if we had lost...sounds relieved...shows toughness with win...proud of our guys...not many teams can do what we did...

Verga3
02-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Gutty ACC road win. Nolan is a stud. Solid stuff from Zoubek. Loved seeing Andre and Ryan in there at the end of this kind of game. It shows them the confidence and expectation Coach K has in their performance as well as giving them a taste of crunch time that neither has yet experienced at Duke.

moonpie23
02-06-2010, 04:42 PM
andre's free throws were ice........

he looked much happier on the sidelines as well...

gritty gritty bang bang...

arnie
02-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Yep, that was the first close game that we actually won this year, that's a good sign because there will most certainly be games like that in the tourney.

My initial thoughts exactly - a win is a win and for me, the 1st time I thought Z really won a game for us.

Don't know what the deal is with Mason; as this is beyond a freshman slump, etc. He simply can't finish unless its a non-defended dunk and his free throw shooting is abysmal.

gwwilburn
02-06-2010, 04:43 PM
This wasn't pretty, but Duke comes of of 2 days of rest compared to BC's 6. So, on the whole, I'm happy with this road win. Something that has been stressed, but not enough, is that this is our FIRST CLOSE WIN OF THE SEASON!

wallyman
02-06-2010, 04:45 PM
On the road.
One day rest.
Sandwiched between two big games.

If we shoot free throws it's a comfortable win. Great to see Andre and Ryan in at the end and Andre looking excited. Fabulous games by Smith and Scheyer, and Zoubek was everywhere. Those four free throws by Smith and Scheyer were huge, and I don't think any of the four touched the rim. You can nitpick this or that but a great win.

camion
02-06-2010, 04:46 PM
The game was about what I thought it would be, a tough physical road game on short rest. We made some mistakes and missed some chances that turned a dull victory into a nail biter. That being said, I'm happy with the win. I didn't expect a masterpiece given the circumstances.

Welcome2DaSlopes
02-06-2010, 04:47 PM
I thought K putting him in at that point in time showed K has confidence in Andre's heart....no matter what else is going on

I looked at it as K needed a free throw shooter out on the floor. Not really showing confidence but Andre seems like a better choice to take a free throw over mason, miles, or brian.

mike88
02-06-2010, 04:48 PM
I guess how you feel about the use of our bench today depends on whether you believe that having a chance to be on the court for crunch time in important, close games is helpful in and of itself. Ryan and Mason played alot down the stretch, but they didn't play particularly well.

For Andre, in my experience, it is very hard to come off the bench and play at a high level just at the end- I thought he did OK given what he was asked to do, but in this case i don't understand Coach K's purpose in sitting him all last game and most of this one, then putting him on the floor in the last minute. Fortunately, he did OK, but if he is going to play at the end, I would have liked to see him get some minutes earlier.

arnie
02-06-2010, 04:49 PM
andre's free throws were ice........

he looked much happier on the sidelines as well...

gritty gritty bang bang...

Actually, Andre was 1 of 2 from the line. Nolan and Jon saved us on the line at the end.

sagegrouse
02-06-2010, 04:54 PM
I am happy with the win. I thought we played like the superior team overall, but tired at the end.

The FT misses are a mystery, but I am happy that Kyle, Nolan and Jon solved the mystery at the end of the game.

Big-man rotation seemed odd. I haven't checked the minutes yet, but we saw little of Miles. Mason was on the court an awful but without a lot to show for it. Perhaps K thinks the big games in the trournament will ride on having some inside offense and (rightly) thinks that Mason is the only possibility.

Zoubs was wonderful, but the common foul called when he was under the BC basket was the worst call of the year IMHO (the H is usually silent when the Grouse cackles). On that playn he had gathered the ball for the shot and then was mugged twice -- the second time his shouldders were grabbed and there was no attempt to get at the ball.

sagegrouse

Bob Green
02-06-2010, 04:54 PM
I looked at it as K needed a free throw shooter out on the floor. Not really showing confidence but Andre seems like a better choice to take a free throw over mason, miles, or brian.

I vehemently disagree with this statement. Coach K showed intense confidence in Andre Dawkins by inserting him into the game at crunch time.

jpfrizzle
02-06-2010, 04:56 PM
A win is a win. Bring on the Tarholes.....

Matches
02-06-2010, 04:57 PM
Some strange substitution decisions at the end - did anyone doubt that Andre was going to be the guy to get fouled when he went in cold?

Any road win's a good win, though. With the short turnaround and the UNC game looming, this was one of those games you just have to plow through, and the team pulled it off. Good win.

superdave
02-06-2010, 04:57 PM
Being forced to execute the last minute in a close game on the road is good for us. Our guys should definitely watch the tape of the last 5 minutes of this one though. Some mistakes to avoid in the future.

Newton_14
02-06-2010, 05:01 PM
With all due respect to you and to a certainly nice young man, how was Kelly "growing up"? Sure he got 7 minutes, but I didn't see anything productive come from them. 1 rebound, 1 point, and 4 fouls. I didn't see any particularly good defense. I really hope you're right, but it just feels to me like Kelly is getting minutes because he's the last perimeter option left, with Dre in the doghouse.


3 weeks ago Kelly would never see the court in the 2nd half of a game like this. And with it being a road game, it would have been a good chance he would not have played at all. People get too hung up on stats. Kelly has been playing much better defense lately and looks way more comfortable out there on both ends of the floor.

Also, most of Kelly's minutes today came at the 4 or 5. He only played the 3 for about a minute or so when Kyle got a rest. So playing Kelly had little if anything to do with how K is managing Andre right now. I also do not believe Andre is in the "doghouse'. Kid has had a heck of a lot go wrong this year and K is handling him how he sees fit. I certainly do not believe K is "mad" at Andre.

So yes, I believe Kelly is "maturing", "growing up", or ever how you want to describe progress, through hard work in practice and has been rewarded with playing time he was not getting a little as 3 weeks ago.

Dukeface88
02-06-2010, 05:02 PM
Some strange substitution decisions at the end - did anyone doubt that Andre was going to be the guy to get fouled when he went in cold?



That may have been the point.

Welcome2DaSlopes
02-06-2010, 05:03 PM
I vehemently disagree with this statement. Coach K showed intense confidence in Andre Dawkins by inserting him into the game at crunch time.

If he had so much confidence then i would have expected him to be put in the game b4 they needed just another free throw shooter on the floor.

roywhite
02-06-2010, 05:05 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.

chrisheery
02-06-2010, 05:06 PM
Another Triple S effort. Almost nothing from anyone else. Glad they hit some
free throws down the stretch. Andre must be in K's doghouse, not playing until
the end in a game like that. He still has time to turn it around for the tournament, but he needs to do something to get it going?

Disagree. I thought Zoubek played really really well. Lance did too except for the fouls. I would like to see Miles and Mason play better, but they seem to be always in a position to fail, never to succeed. Not sure how that can be fixed easily.

Bob Green
02-06-2010, 05:06 PM
3 weeks ago Kelly would never see the court in the 2nd half of a game like this....Kelly has been playing much better defense lately and looks way more comfortable out there on both ends of the floor.

....So playing Kelly had little if anything to do with how K is managing Andre right now. I also do not believe Andre is in the "doghouse'....I certainly do not believe K is "mad" at Andre....

Thank you! I agree with everything you said in this post. There has been way too much speculation in posts the last couple of days.

Bob Green
02-06-2010, 05:08 PM
If he had so much confidence then i would have expected him to be put in the game b4 they needed just another free throw shooter on the floor.

Well we will just have to agree to disagree. Coach K inserted Dawkins into the game knowing he would be fouled and have to go to the line cold. Coach K was confident Dawkins was up to the task.

RockLobster
02-06-2010, 05:09 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.

^^This.

Mason needs to calm down...when he does, he'll be fine. He looks VERY tentative when he has the ball, and when he doesn't, he commits dumb fouls.

I saw him playing a lot near the top of the key today. I think he'd be better off playing down low with Zoubek more often.

mike88
02-06-2010, 05:17 PM
I am happy with the win. I thought we played like the superior team overall, but tired at the end.

The FT misses are a mystery, but I am happy that Kyle, Nolan and Jon solved the mystery at the end of the game.



sagegrouse

Apart from surprisingly Kyle missing 2/2 one time, the reason we were poor from the line today was that our poorer free throw shooters were the ones missing- as long as we have Jon (6/6) and Nolan (2/3) shooting the majority, our % will look good!

loldevilz
02-06-2010, 05:20 PM
I have been hard on Zoubs most of the year but I thought he had an excellent game today. His offense rebounds were huge and that feed to Mason was great (although Mason needs to finish there). I still would like to see more offense from the big guys. If only we could get our inside game going we would be unstopable.

GO DEVILS!

dukelifer
02-06-2010, 05:22 PM
Well we will just have to agree to disagree. Coach K inserted Dawkins into the game knowing he would be fouled and have to go to the line cold. Coach K was confident Dawkins was up to the task.
If last game was a message- this was a message too. He believes in Andre and put him at the end of a very tight game because he can shoot. Even 1 minute can mean a lot. Hopefully, this will be the start of Andre's second wind.

CDu
02-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Great game from Zoubek. And he was absolutely necessary, because it was a pretty poor game from the Plumlees and Thomas fouled out. If Zoubek had had his typical 12-15 minute, 3-4 foul effort, we would have probably lost. But he had one of his best games of the season, with 24 minutes and only 1 foul, and he was a presence on both ends of the court.

dukelifer
02-06-2010, 05:26 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.
Yep- most Freshman big men struggle- he is not alone. We have seen glimpses of what he can do. He will pull it together- but he needs to work out the kinks. Losing the first part of the season put him a bit behind.

CDu
02-06-2010, 05:34 PM
Yep- most Freshman big men struggle- he is not alone. We have seen glimpses of what he can do. He will pull it together- but he needs to work out the kinks. Losing the first part of the season put him a bit behind.

I'd agree that this is the problem, except that it seems like he's regressed after playing pretty well in early January. From the Penn game through the Wake game, he averaged 8.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, and 2.7 fpg in 18.7 mpg. In the six games since, he's averaging 13.3 mpg, 2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 3 fpg.

He definitely has the potential to be an impact player for us. But right now he just looks lost out there. Hopefully he can figure it out over the last few weeks of the regular season. But I'm definitely getting concerned that it won't be until next year that we really see the kid come into his own. I certainly hope he proves me wrong.

Grey Devil
02-06-2010, 05:40 PM
I'd agree that this is the problem, except that it seems like he's regressed after playing pretty well in early January. In early January, he was playing fairly well. From the Penn game through the Wake game, he averaged 8.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, and 2.7 fpg in 18.7 mpg. In the six games since, he's averaging 13.3 mpg, 2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 3 fpg.

He definitely has the potential to be an impact player for us. But right now he just looks lost out there. Hopefully he can figure it out over the last few weeks of the regular season. But I'm definitely getting concerned that it won't be until next year that we really see the kid come into his own. I certainly hope he proves me wrong.

As someone who is a former HS basketball coach (many years ago) and someone who has been in education for over 30 years I know that learning is not a smooth progression upward to full awareness, consciousness, and understanding. Each person has their own path they must follow. Mason is on his path. We will see periods of brilliance and periods of apparent ineptitude. That's life. He will get better....much better. And when he does reach his potential we will all forget about these struggles he's having now.

Of course, we all want him to reach his potential in the very next game (especially the next game!), but it just might not happen for a while yet.

Grey Devil

CDu
02-06-2010, 05:46 PM
As someone who is a former HS basketball coach (many years ago) and someone who has been in education for over 30 years I know that learning is not a smooth progression upward to full awareness, consciousness, and understanding. Each person has their own path they must follow. Mason is on his path. We will see periods of brilliance and periods of apparent ineptitude. That's life. He will get better....much better. And when he does reach his potential we will all forget about these struggles he's having now.

Of course, we all want him to reach his potential in the very next game (especially the next game!), but it just might not happen for a while yet.

Grey Devil

I completely agree. Obviously learning isn't necessarily a smooth progression. I'm just saying that I don't know that it's the wrist injury at this point.

Your last sentence is my point. Mason was a big part of the reason people were really high on this team. But right now, it's looking less likely that he'll become the impact player (this year) that many had hoped coming into the season.

There's still time. And maybe it'll all come at once for him. But I'd at least like to see him stop committing the silly reaction fouls. That would at least be progress.

RockyMtDevil
02-06-2010, 05:50 PM
Wow, we made that interesting, and you need to give credit to BC as well, they hit some big shots. If we had simply gotten that one lose ball with about 40 seconds and up 4, the game would've been over much earlier. Great, gutty mature win for us. The big three were huge and I can't say enough about Zoubs.

Zoubs had several big plays today, the offensive rebound and kick out to Jon for the three. a huge defensive rebound in the final 3 minutes and the final shot alteration on Rouch.

I believe we will see more of Andre in the next 6 weeks. Hitting that first free throw will be huge for him, even being in the game can jump start him.

Interesting that without Thomas in the game, Singler has to trigger the ball in, making us much less potent from the line...Lance is a critical component to this basketball team, his maturation as a player is remarkable, especially because it is not coming via points, but other aspects of the game.

stals
02-06-2010, 05:57 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.

Hey Roy

He's a Freshman

MChambers
02-06-2010, 05:57 PM
"Zoubek won that game for us in so many way"

agree completely.

Zoubek was huge, literally and figuratively.

Grey Devil
02-06-2010, 06:00 PM
Your last sentence is my point. Mason was a big part of the reason people were really high on this team. But right now, it's looking less likely that he'll become the impact player (this year) that many had hoped coming into the season.


Then maybe the problem is ours, in that we have these high expectations. We all know he has problems during games. And he surely knows he has problems. I'm just suggesting that we recalibrate our expectations, as tough as that is for us to do because we see the potential.

One of the biggest challenges I've had as an educator is in restraining my frustrations when I see tremendous potential go unfulfilled. I've learned over the years to take joy in the journey instead. I've adopted the philosophy of enjoying the steps along the way more than the final product (because all too often, due to normal human frailty and other external forces, many people just don't reach their potential).

As much as I love watching Duke win....and especially win big...I'm finding that I enjoy watching the players learn and grow over the course of their Duke careers. It will be especially fun to watch the light bulbs go on for this year's freshman class (Mason, Andre, and Ryan) because they each have so much potential.

That's enough Zen for today. Now let's go beat the crap out of Kerlina!

Grey Devil

Verga3
02-06-2010, 06:02 PM
As someone who is a former HS basketball coach (many years ago) and someone who has been in education for over 30 years I know that learning is not a smooth progression upward to full awareness, consciousness, and understanding. Each person has their own path they must follow. Mason is on his path. We will see periods of brilliance and periods of apparent ineptitude. That's life. He will get better....much better. And when he does reach his potential we will all forget about these struggles he's having now.

Of course, we all want him to reach his potential in the very next game (especially the next game!), but it just might not happen for a while yet.

Grey Devil

Well said Grey Devil. Mason is going to journey toward his potential in his own increments.....and one game later this year or maybe early next year I predict he will announce his arrival to us.

BobbyFan
02-06-2010, 06:05 PM
^^This.

Mason needs to calm down...when he does, he'll be fine. He looks VERY tentative when he has the ball, and when he doesn't, he commits dumb fouls.

I saw him playing a lot near the top of the key today. I think he'd be better off playing down low with Zoubek more often.

Agreed. When he gets the ball, he thinks too much and then either makes an overly aggressive move or a conservative pass. And if it winds up being a negative play, he doesn't think and fouls his man. He needs to get control of the mental aspect of his game.

He does face the basket quite often, but that is where he is more comfortable. The post game isn't his forte, partly because his footwork isn't there yet.

MChambers
02-06-2010, 06:16 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.

I've been thinking the same thing, but then I try to push those thoughts out of my head. I think he's a lot better than Burgess on defense. Burgess just couldn't play without fouling. Mason can, but then he makes the silly fouls. Mason is much better at ball handling than was Burgess.

dukelifer
02-06-2010, 06:18 PM
I'd agree that this is the problem, except that it seems like he's regressed after playing pretty well in early January. From the Penn game through the Wake game, he averaged 8.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, and 2.7 fpg in 18.7 mpg. In the six games since, he's averaging 13.3 mpg, 2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 3 fpg.

He definitely has the potential to be an impact player for us. But right now he just looks lost out there. Hopefully he can figure it out over the last few weeks of the regular season. But I'm definitely getting concerned that it won't be until next year that we really see the kid come into his own. I certainly hope he proves me wrong.
Regressed may be too strong- but yes his numbers are down- but Penn was a big game for him and skewed his average. I would not call that one game a peak. He see himself as a creator and perhaps he will become that- but the game is a bit too fast for him right now. If he simplified his game and did what Zoubek is doing- he would probably score a bit more. He also does better when his teammates get him when he is facing the rim- rather than with his back to the basket. Still we have seen signs and that usually means he will start to string a few games together. Yes- folks are still expecting big things from and he was seen as the missing piece down low- but I have been surprised by Zoubek's play and Thomas has accepted his role on this team. There is still some time left in the season for the light to go off for Mason.

mo.st.dukie
02-06-2010, 06:21 PM
Re: realizing potential, I think you look no further than Nolan Smith for an excellent example of this (even though he's not a big man). A lot of people were down on Nolan during the offseason, some even thought he'd be no more than an average player. He made small jumps in development between year 1 and 2 but kept working and learning and is now one of the best in the conference. I know some fans are impatient and have the tendency to write off players if they don't show much by their sophomore year but you have to be patient. The patience with Zoubek paid off today, he may not be the most consistent or dominant big man but is a contributor and in some games can be a major reason for getting wins.

MChambers
02-06-2010, 06:24 PM
But I'd at least like to see him stop committing the silly reaction fouls. That would at least be progress.
When he committed that dumb foul after missing a free throw in the closing minutes, Nolan was immediately in his face. Seems like Nolan may be becoming the leader on this team.

roywhite
02-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Then maybe the problem is ours, in that we have these high expectations. We all know he has problems during games. And he surely knows he has problems. I'm just suggesting that we recalibrate our expectations, as tough as that is for us to do because we see the potential.

One of the biggest challenges I've had as an educator is in restraining my frustrations when I see tremendous potential go unfulfilled. I've learned over the years to take joy in the journey instead. I've adopted the philosophy of enjoying the steps along the way more than the final product (because all too often, due to normal human frailty and other external forces, many people just don't reach their potential).

As much as I love watching Duke win....and especially win big...I'm finding that I enjoy watching the players learn and grow over the course of their Duke careers. It will be especially fun to watch the light bulbs go on for this year's freshman class (Mason, Andre, and Ryan) because they each have so much potential.

That's enough Zen for today. Now let's go beat the crap out of Kerlina!

Grey Devil

One step forward today was that the three freshmen played in the last few minutes of a close conference game on the road. Their contribution was somewhat mixed at best, but the experience should be valuable.

Late January, early February is often a low point in freshman development, but quite often by ACC tournament time, they play more like sophomores than freshmen.

greybeard
02-06-2010, 06:36 PM
I think that this was a terrific win. Why? Coming off a game that K and his team wanted and played like it. Very hard to win the next one. Just ask Georgetown.

Here's what I think. There are a number of instances where an exterior player has the ball and Z or one of the Ps or L is posted in the lane with an easy entry and it doesn't go. In those instances, the big almost always is not in a position to attack the basket and it seems clear that the big three have the discretion, in fact are under instructions, to just wave the big off.

I think that Duke will not reach its potential unless and until they start dumping a lot of those in. The exterior defenders have no idea whether the interior receiver has his man dead, and therefore must at least turn to look, or often go to help. There must be a way to have the ball in and come right back out.

I'd love to see a little 3 man weave aka the old Goldtrotter stapple off of such pass-penetrations but will settle for a touch and pass back out.

I think that doing this will pay great dividends. First, it will take some of the pressure off the big 3, even if it's a tad. Second, it will give bigs a chance to handle the ball in the flow of the game. They then will be much better equiped to score the ball when the chance presents. Second, you had a lot of circumstance with Singler playing inside, running off a screen by a big and a switch was made. Passing it inside and creating some sort of play off the pass, exterior screens, Singler diving off the switched big, etc. which will produce some easy scores.

Third, and this is where the rubber meets the road. You give a guy like Zoub's the ball when he is relatively high in the lane and he routinely tosses it out, the defender starts to expect that. You have Zoub occasionally making a move to a lower spot from which he can turn and shoot, or bounce once to the middle and shoot, and I believe you improve your offense whether he makes or not. Evern more importantly, I WANT TO SEE ZOUB'S AND OTHERS CATCH IT IN THE PAINT IN FRONT OF THE RIM. I WANT TO SEE AT LEAST FIVE SUCH CATCHES A GAME. I THINK THAT THERE IS NO REASON WHY THAT CAN'T HAPPEN. I HAVE TO BET THAT 3 OF THE 5 ARE MAKES OR FOULS.

BC was intent on taking away Singler's curl from inside out to the 3 line with a shot after catch. They committed themselves to switches and aggressive, aggressive outside guarding by bigs to do it. That leaves the basket vulnerable. YOU MUST HURT PEOPLE WHEN THEY DO THAT. It is time to let the big guys play.

A word about Z. I like how he is playing. He needs to soften his spine, ribs and neck. There is a physical therapist at the Duke University Hospital who is a trained Feldenkrais practitioner. Two or three delightful lessons from her and Z will find much more subtleness. I have been a big fan of the guy since he arrived. I think that this will improve his play exponentially. This is not a drill! I am dead serious.

Very big win! Very, very nice game by Z. Terrific combat by Singler. Scheyer. Impressive. Very.

BlueintheFace
02-06-2010, 06:39 PM
I hate saying negative things after a win, especially a road win, but one of the biggest storylines has to be masons play. Not only did he make freshman mistakes, but he made them consistently in significant playing time and almost gave the game away single handedly down the stretch ( turnover, two poor defensive posessions resulting in bc points, and that ridiculous foul). I have not seen any significant improvement from him in a while and he is not learning from his worst mistakes. If you are one of those who thinks we need him in march to make the final four, you have to be pretty distressed. He is getting the opportunities and it isn't going well. There is still time, but im afraid he has been moving backwards recently

ReformedAggie
02-06-2010, 06:43 PM
Y'all can pick this apart if you want to, but I have to say I LOVE THIS TEAM.
They have heart, character, and talent. Even if they persist in taking five years off my life by stumbling a bit toward the end of a game I can handle it. Kudos to Zoubec in this game and it was great to see Andre. Love that kid, LOVE THIS TEAM. (go to hell Carolina)

Saratoga2
02-06-2010, 06:46 PM
BC doesn't have great scoring potential so they needed to keep the number of possessions down and avoid giving up fast break points. It had to be a grind out game for us, and our big three did their jobs well, even if Kyle was less of a factor all the way around.

Thomas has added a lot to the team over the last few weeks and it is time for him to realize that by giving up so many fouls, he jeopardizes the team in two ways. The first is to lose us a possession while giving the opponents a scoring opportunity and the second is to make himself unavailable in critical parts of the game.

Zoubek did what he can do and was a major factor in the victory but the Plumlees were mainly negative factors with silly fouls, inept passing and defense.

If we can't get better play from our bigs, how can we hope to have any run in the NCAA's? What is the answer to get our bigs to play better? We have big, strong athletic guys in the Plumlees who aren't playing well, while Kelly is doing better but is not a force. Zoubek does well but has limits and Thomas has done well but fouls way too often. We are going to need at least 20 points inside and decent rebounding and defence to move ahead. What suggestions are there to get this team to improve the front court. It seems to me that a lot of it is a lack of thinking and calmness. Miles in no Freshman, so that is no excuse for him.

jv001
02-06-2010, 06:46 PM
One step forward today was that the three freshmen played in the last few minutes of a close conference game on the road. Their contribution was somewhat mixed at best, but the experience should be valuable.

Late January, early February is often a low point in freshman development, but quite often by ACC tournament time, they play more like sophomores than freshmen.

Just getting to play in the closing minutes of a tight ACC road game should make them feel better about themselves. That should give them confidence down the road. Ryan and Andre each hit a free throw that was very important in the win today. Good to see them in such a big game. Shows that Coach K has confidence in them. Go Duke!

MChambers
02-06-2010, 06:47 PM
I hate saying negative things after a win, especially a road win, but one of the biggest storylines has to be masons play. Not only did he make freshman mistakes, but he made them consistently in significant playing time and almost gave the game away single handedly down the stretch ( turnover, two poor defensive posessions resulting in bc points, and that ridiculous foul). I have not seen any significant improvement from him in a while and he is not learning from his worst mistakes. If you are one of those who thinks we need him in march to make the final four, you have to be pretty distressed. He is getting the opportunities and it isn't going well. There is still time, but im afraid he has been moving backwards recently

As others have observed in this thread, learning isn't always a smooth progression. Mason is very talented and obviously cares greatly about winning.

I also thought his defense was better today. He seems to be improving at recognizing when to rotate.

BlueintheFace
02-06-2010, 06:54 PM
Recently I have heard a lot of grumbling about post feeds so I decided to do a little study. Today I counted 19 feeds to the post (including pick and roll feeds) this game with only 5 points off of those feeds.

2 points- LT on first posession
2 points- LT on pick and roll
1 point- Singler FT after being fouled.

There were quite a few turnovers and shots that had no chance too. Only 3 assists following those feeds that I can remember ( two cutters in the first 5 mins) though I might have missed one or two.

...take from that what you will.

chrisheery
02-06-2010, 06:59 PM
The issue is more with the timing and precision of those post feeds. They are rarely well timed and even less commonly well placed. Often they are passes given just to make a pass when nothing else is available.

Best post feed of the game was Ryan Kelly (best post-feeder on the team?) to Miles. Of course, Miles missed the layup and still should have had the put back but dropped it out of bounds.

To say that we didn't convert is a reason not to pass it into the post is like saying that Singler should have stopped shooting before last game because he was missing a lot of shots.

DUKIE V(A)
02-06-2010, 06:59 PM
I was really nervous about this game and very pleased the guys found a way to win.

Mason is going to be a very good player. His mistakes today were more mental than physical and after two over the back fouls at key moments, it seemed that Coach K decided Kelly was the better option. I think Mason stays in without the silly fouls. Mason is going to be fine, his mental errors were aggressive ones. He wants it. It will happen for him. He is extremely talented.

Zoubs and LT continue to show why they are so valuable to the team -- especially on defense and on the glass. LT fouling out hurt us a lot on the defensive end down the stretch.

Scheyer and Nolan are glutch. They were superb today.

Singler is a stud. He fights all game, every game long. He's a warrior.

Loved seeing Dawk and Kelly hit those free throws in the last minute. Yes, they missed one each also, but those were extremely tough free throws...And yes, Coach K had confidence in these guys. Seemed like he drew up a play to get Dawkins the ball on the in bounds. Dawkins went after it and looked good on both shots at the line. Kelly looked very nervous on the first and the second was a no doubter.

We hit enough free throws to stay ahead at least three when BC had the ball. Don't know if I could have taken it had we been up two with them having the ball.

Huge win!! I am really happy right now. I love winning and getting to sit back and watch the two teams I hate the most battle it out tomorrow. It's a shame one of them has to win.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-06-2010, 07:05 PM
Survival is about the best way to sum this up. Any road win right now counts as a good win.

But at some point, the lightswitch needs to flip on for the Plumlees. We really need to get more than 27 minutes, 2 points, 7 rebounds, and 5 fouls.


Why so little PT for Miles?

rsvman
02-06-2010, 07:06 PM
Big win on the road! Stop the freaking slow down game, play aggressive until the final buzzer. GO DUKE!

Give it a rest.

Which basketball coaching hall of fame are you in? How many ACC championships and NCAA championships do your teams have?

As far as I can recall, the point of playing the game is to win the game. We won the game. Therefore, mission accomplished.

DUKIE V(A)
02-06-2010, 07:10 PM
Why so little PT for Miles?

I like Miles a lot and feel he is a talented offensive player. He is important to our team. However, when Miles is not scoring, we have three or four better defenders at his position right now.

Indoor66
02-06-2010, 07:13 PM
I'd agree that this is the problem, except that it seems like he's regressed after playing pretty well in early January. From the Penn game through the Wake game, he averaged 8.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, and 2.7 fpg in 18.7 mpg. In the six games since, he's averaging 13.3 mpg, 2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 3 fpg.

Very common. Do you remember Greg Monroe last year? He was terrrible for stretches of the season. This year he is a year older and a year better. Give the young guys a break.

basket1544
02-06-2010, 07:46 PM
Has anyone else noticed how intense Coach is during these games? He's always been intense but this year seems to be more so. Both Jay Bilas and Jay Williams have said he seems to be in hyper focus for each game this year. I think this is proof of just how special this team is to him.

InSpades
02-06-2010, 07:57 PM
Where did Miles go? Thanks to missing the start of the game I barely saw him on the floor. Going over the play-by-play he sat out the last 18+ minutes. Which seemed really weird. I know Zoubs played well and they kind of play the same position but with Lance in foul trouble (and eventually out) and Mason making a number of silly plays I would've expected to see more of Miles.

The big men need to stop w/ the silly fouls after missed shots. I know we had a number of good offensive rebounds (which is form the same effort) but they drive me personally insane. The most egregious one was Zoubs at the end of the 1st half. Fouling the other team 80 foot from your basket with less than 2 seconds on the clock is awful.

I don't want to be negative though... it was a good one on the road in the ACC (which is never easy!). The free throw shooting needs to be better (it was worse than it even looks on the stat sheet as we missed the front end of a couple 1-and-1s) but other than that the team played great. The rebounding advantage was huge and Nolan and Jon both did everything you could ask of them.

should_be_working
02-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Give it a rest.

Which basketball coaching hall of fame are you in? How many ACC championships and NCAA championships do your teams have?

As far as I can recall, the point of playing the game is to win the game. We won the game. Therefore, mission accomplished.

Hmm, I know that the issue of "stall ball" is one that's discussed around here quite often, and for the most part I think it works, but I don't think you have to be a hall of fame coach or NCAA championship winner to see that today it didn't exactly work to perfection.

There were some ugly possessions in the last 7 minutes that had a lot to do with running the shot clock down and then not getting a good shot. Some could even argue that BC made it close because of such possessions. The fact that the shot clocks weren't working didn't exactly help either. To the non hall of fame coach as myself, it seemed like the offense was doing well (maybe not firing on all cylinders), being productive, finding good shots, until we slowed it down and began to struggle.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, I don't think today was great example of how effective "stall ball" can be. We were a free throw or two miss away from overtime.

HB TAYLOR
02-06-2010, 08:24 PM
Give it a rest.

Which basketball coaching hall of fame are you in? How many ACC championships and NCAA championships do your teams have?

As far as I can recall, the point of playing the game is to win the game. We won the game. Therefore, mission accomplished.

Not attempting to coach but rather stating the obvious. If I recall we had a 10 point lead with around 7 mins left and playing good, aggressive basketball and I believe our next 3 possessions resulted in 2 rushed 3pt attempts and a turnover with the shot clock expiring as a result of slowing down. Of course BC climbed back into the game and had a chance to win. Regardless we got the W. GO DUKE!

Orange&BlackSheep
02-06-2010, 08:31 PM
Recently I have heard a lot of grumbling about post feeds so I decided to do a little study. Today I counted 19 feeds to the post (including pick and roll feeds) this game with only 5 points off of those feeds.

2 points- LT on first posession
2 points- LT on pick and roll
1 point- Singler FT after being fouled.

There were quite a few turnovers and shots that had no chance too. Only 3 assists following those feeds that I can remember ( two cutters in the first 5 mins) though I might have missed one or two.

...take from that what you will.

Duke got several uncontested layups (some that even went in -- thanks, Nolan) from sweet Zoubek feeds. He is still awkward, but he makes good decisions with the ball.

Chard
02-06-2010, 08:36 PM
As someone who is a former HS basketball coach (many years ago) and someone who has been in education for over 30 years I know that learning is not a smooth progression upward to full awareness, consciousness, and understanding. Each person has their own path they must follow. Mason is on his path. We will see periods of brilliance and periods of apparent ineptitude. That's life. He will get better....much better. And when he does reach his potential we will all forget about these struggles he's having now.

Of course, we all want him to reach his potential in the very next game (especially the next game!), but it just might not happen for a while yet.

Grey Devil

Very, very well said.

Devilsfan
02-06-2010, 08:37 PM
Two games in a day and a half with the second being on the road, that's a tall task. The freshmen playing is a little scary but it should pay off in the tournament and next year. I don't think either one of our frosh bigs is quite ready for the strong man competition, but Mason reminds me of McRob on the court. I love Dawkins and wish he would play more regardless of his play in practice.

cspan37421
02-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Good win/finish, and I like how our more seasoned players are showing leadership.

Elmore is approaching the Doyel level of obviousness in the anti-Duke bias coming from his commentary. He needs another hobby.

COYS
02-06-2010, 08:48 PM
Not attempting to coach but rather stating the obvious. If I recall we had a 10 point lead with around 7 mins left and playing good, aggressive basketball and I believe our next 3 possessions resulted in 2 rushed 3pt attempts and a turnover with the shot clock expiring as a result of slowing down. Of course BC climbed back into the game and had a chance to win. Regardless we got the W. GO DUKE!

You have to give credit to the team, though, when we execute the stall ball spread well, though. We've run stall ball pretty much every game we've won this season because we've won all of those games by a pretty wide margin and had ample reason to limit the number of possessions. I would argue that we have run the spread better this year than in most of the past few years. We have done an excellent job finding an open man for an open look at the end of the shot clock, and if nothing else has been open, Nolan has done an excellent job of breaking down the defense and making something happen, whether it be a score or a foul. Today, we didn't execute the spread nearly as well. I would bet a large part of that had to do with the shot clocks not working. It was also poor execution on our part. I agree that it is better to stay aggressive on offense than it is to become passive and "play not to lose" as they say. That being said, the best possible scenario is to stay aggressive on offense while simultaneously milking the clock. With the exception of today's game, we have been really good this season at executing on offense when we are protecting a lead.

BD80
02-06-2010, 08:58 PM
Mason Plumlee is giving me Chris Burgess flashbacks...shoots poorly when guarded, mechanics are not good, not a good FT shooter. Needs to get his temperament under control...gets overly excited, nervous when shooting, then gets frustrated, commits silly fouls.

I see the ability (rebounding is coming along, and the passing is starting to come along); he needs hard work and experience.

And apparently listening to the media talk about his potential.

Difference is, Mason is clearing trying to work on changing, which has caused some paralysis through over-analysis. I think many posters fail to appreciate just how much more difficult the conference schedule is compared to the pre-conference schedule. It is completely absurd to compare "success" against Penn with his efforts on the road in a conference game. He'll get there.

When he stops the silly fouls, he will stay in the game. It is so easy to see when he will be yanked. It is not the first mistake, it is the stupid reach-in foul right after that magically lifts someone off the bench.

Also, Mason's dad is nothing like Chris's dad.

Mason will be a factor in the post season. Not in every game, but in at least one game.

I also think it is important to remember that Coach K is truly a master motivator and is literally a world reknown expert in management. Top executives pay big bucks to learn form Coach K. He has an entire staff working to maximize the development of EACH of the players, getting them to run their own race.

Inserting Ryan and Dre was a masterful stroke and great coaching. We will have NINE players ready for the post season.

hq2
02-06-2010, 08:58 PM
An earlier poster brought up the subject of Zoubs nice passes out of the post. Those are especially good when sent to good drivers like Kyle or Nolan. This is not a skill the Plumlees have developed yet. Overall, I think the last few games have pretty much showed the limits of what the Plumlees will do this year. I'd say at this point it's unrealistic for them to get that much better. Mason in particular looks lost on both ends of the court, and has no back to the basket game. The comparisons with Chris Burgess aren't quite fair, but there are parallels. We'll have to wait until next year to see how much he improves. In the meantime, I think most people will agree that we'll be going half Lance/Zoubs vs. Plumlees for the rest of the year. Lance in particular may get more minutes, as his defense is really irreplaceable, and his offense has gotten both better and smarter. But the "Plumlees as saviors" talk is going to be fading soon unless they get better real quick.

DukeUsul
02-06-2010, 09:15 PM
You have to give credit to the team, though, when we execute the stall ball spread well, though. We've run stall ball pretty much every game we've won this season because we've won all of those games by a pretty wide margin and had ample reason to limit the number of possessions. I would argue that we have run the spread better this year than in most of the past few years. We have done an excellent job finding an open man for an open look at the end of the shot clock, and if nothing else has been open, Nolan has done an excellent job of breaking down the defense and making something happen, whether it be a score or a foul. Today, we didn't execute the spread nearly as well. I would bet a large part of that had to do with the shot clocks not working. It was also poor execution on our part. I agree that it is better to stay aggressive on offense than it is to become passive and "play not to lose" as they say. That being said, the best possible scenario is to stay aggressive on offense while simultaneously milking the clock. With the exception of today's game, we have been really good this season at executing on offense when we are protecting a lead.

Quoted for Emphasis.

Well said.

MB in MD
02-06-2010, 09:43 PM
I agree with everyone who said that it could have been prettier, but a road win in the ACC where we withstand a challenge and win a nailbiter may be more valuable in the long run than a blowout.

I think a big thing that let them get back in the game that I haven't seen mentioned was losing Lance. We are a much, much more confident defensive team when he is in the lineup.

And with respect to the thread about feeding the post, can someone explain to me why we don't have more pick-and-roll in our offense? With all the screening our bigs do out on the perimeter, and as well as we pass the ball, it would seem to be a natural, but I almost never see it. Do you think K just has nightmares about it because it makes him think about Greece picking apart the US?

gep
02-06-2010, 09:46 PM
Interesting that without Thomas in the game, Singler has to trigger the ball in, making us much less potent from the line...Lance is a critical component to this basketball team, his maturation as a player is remarkable, especially because it is not coming via points, but other aspects of the game.

I watched most of the 2nd half. I noticed that after Lance fouled out, Kyle was the one throwing the ball in after a made BC basket. With a full court press, I thought Kyle wasn't nearly as good as Lance has been in the last few games. It seems Lance knows when, where, and how to run the baseline after a made basket to get the ball in with a full court press. I thought Duke really missed Lance for this after he fouled out...

MChambers
02-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Mason in particular looks lost on both ends of the court, and has no back to the basket game. The comparisons with Chris Burgess aren't quite fair, but there are parallels.

I wasn't really comparing them, just saying that I see similarities. (I think Roy was doing the same.)

Mason already is worlds better than Chris Burgess. Moreover, I'm confident we'll see improved play before the season ends.

BD80
02-06-2010, 09:57 PM
... Mason already is worlds better than Chris Burgess. Moreover, I'm confident we'll see improved play before the season ends.

Remember Chris trying to shoot freethrows?

It has taken a LLLOONNGGGG time for that memory to be funny.

AlaskanAssassin
02-06-2010, 10:09 PM
A good read (and nolan interview): http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/3433/duke-tops-boston-college-66-63

Neals384
02-06-2010, 11:10 PM
Seemed like we pretty much abandoned the motion offense that worked so well against GT.

-bdbd
02-06-2010, 11:38 PM
Good to get a road win in the ACC, and the the post-game hugs and high-fives indicated to me that the players really wanted this one. As Jay Bilas said a little later, "I think Duke needed a win like this.....to gut one out on the road."

Given our difficulties on the road this season, though I DO think too much has been made of that, this was an important one to start getting "over the hump." Winning in Chapel Hell will be another such step.

I was just amazed how poorly our FT-shooting was, especially given our "tops in the USA" status previously. Also, we sure did come out shooting cold early, missing our first three 3's.... Ugh! Can't do that against the better conference foes and reasonably expect to win. But, overall, it was good to see them find a way to win. 'also leaked seeing the younger guys getting more involved at critical times.

P.S. Anyone catch gameday a little later? Good to see Duke get props from Digger and Jay as the best team in the ACC, with "everyone else fighting for second." However, not surprised to see Hubert Davis from Kerlina try toi make a case for Wake is the BEST team in the ACC. Just funny. Those heels , even when their team is awful, just can't make themselves speak well of Duke, no matter what... HA! BTW, they all agreed that the ACC - this was Jay's point originally - is just having a bad, bad year across the board. Kinda like Duke is the oinly team that CAN make a significant dent in the NCAA's, but even they "aren't as good as they were last year..."

:D:D:D

Grey Devil
02-07-2010, 02:17 AM
Good to get a road win in the ACC, and the the post-game hugs and high-fives indicated to me that the players really wanted this one. As Jay Bilas said a little later, "I think Duke needed a win like this.....to gut one out on the road."

....[portions excerpted]

P.S. Anyone catch gameday a little later? Good to see Duke get props from Digger and Jay as the best team in the ACC, with "everyone else fighting for second." However, not surprised to see Hubert Davis from Kerlina try toi make a case for Wake is the BEST team in the ACC. Just funny. Those heels , even when their team is awful, just can't make themselves speak well of Duke, no matter what... HA! BTW, they all agreed that the ACC - this was Jay's point originally - is just having a bad, bad year across the board. Kinda like Duke is the oinly team that CAN make a significant dent in the NCAA's, but even they "aren't as good as they were last year..."

:D:D:D

Yeah I saw that segment, but Hubert did try to retract some of his negativity about Duke later, and get more in agreement with Digger and Jay by saying something like "Yeah, I think Duke is still the best team in the ACC." (That may not be exact, but I was surprised that he did a complete flip-flop.)

Grey Devil

klwooten
02-07-2010, 09:26 AM
I agree re: Plumlees. But it's hard to score/get experience if you are on the bench. See: Miles Plumlee. Very little PT yesterday. What's up with that? Great win, though. Had to get one on the road to establish the new trend.

sagegrouse
02-07-2010, 09:38 AM
P.S. Anyone catch gameday a little later? Good to see Duke get props from Digger and Jay as the best team in the ACC, with "everyone else fighting for second." However, not surprised to see Hubert Davis from Kerlina try toi make a case for Wake is the BEST team in the ACC. Just funny. Those heels , even when their team is awful, just can't make themselves speak well of Duke, no matter what... HA! BTW, they all agreed that the ACC - this was Jay's point originally - is just having a bad, bad year across the board. Kinda like Duke is the oinly team that CAN make a significant dent in the NCAA's, but even they "aren't as good as they were last year..."

:D:D:D

Not to be overly cynical, but don't you think the ESPN commentary is, as my friend Jim3K has said, "scripted" by the producers. Someone has to pick a team other than Duke, so all eyes turn to Hubert, and voices in unison say, "Well?"

From the Grey Devil post, it sounds like he was allowed to recant later.:)

sagegrouse

moonpie23
02-07-2010, 09:42 AM
See: Miles Plumlee. Very little PT yesterday. What's up with that?



how about: out of position, slow rotations, dumb fouls, no assists, two rebounds and zero points???

Kedsy
02-07-2010, 10:52 AM
Another Triple S effort. Almost nothing from anyone else.

I suggest you look past the "points" column in the box score. One could argue that the two most influential members of the team today were Lance (whose value was shown by our less-than-stellar defense after he fouled out) and Z (who had several huge plays at key moments, including the winning D on Trapani at the end).


Nolan Smith season's stats are very similer to those of Scottie Reynolds. But with a lot less national attention.


Scottie Reynolds:
18.5 ppg, 3.4 apg, 2.9 rpg, 1.6 spg

Nolan Smith:
18.0 ppg, 3.1 apg, 2.6 rpg, 1.3 spg

The key stat you guys are missing is minutes: Nolan 35 mpg; Reynolds 29 mpg. I won't go "per 40" on you, but if you added 20% more stats to Reynolds (to make up for the 20% more minutes Nolan gets) you wouldn't be trying this comparison. Nolan is having a great year, but he's not Scottie Reynolds.


Some strange substitution decisions at the end - did anyone doubt that Andre was going to be the guy to get fouled when he went in cold?

No, nobody doubted it. Andre was the guy to whom we threw the ball. K wanted him to get to the line. I think it was a great gesture on K's part.


One step forward today was that the three freshmen played in the last few minutes of a close conference game on the road. Their contribution was somewhat mixed at best, but the experience should be valuable.

I think playing Ryan and Andre at crunch time was the best thing about this game. It could play major dividends down the road.


If we can't get better play from our bigs, how can we hope to have any run in the NCAA's? What is the answer to get our bigs to play better? We have big, strong athletic guys in the Plumlees who aren't playing well, while Kelly is doing better but is not a force. Zoubek does well but has limits and Thomas has done well but fouls way too often. We are going to need at least 20 points inside and decent rebounding and defence to move ahead. What suggestions are there to get this team to improve the front court. It seems to me that a lot of it is a lack of thinking and calmness. Miles in no Freshman, so that is no excuse for him.

The bigs are already averaging 20+ ppg between them. They are all improving (although the improvement of Mason and Miles is difficult to see because of their silly fouls). My suggestion is patience.


And with respect to the thread about feeding the post, can someone explain to me why we don't have more pick-and-roll in our offense? With all the screening our bigs do out on the perimeter, and as well as we pass the ball, it would seem to be a natural, but I almost never see it. Do you think K just has nightmares about it because it makes him think about Greece picking apart the US?

Our bigs roll to the basket after almost every pick (especially Zoubek). They're just not getting the ball. I don't know if it's because they don't get into position quite quickly enough or because the ballhandlers don't have confidence in making that play. I do think we've been getting the ball inside more often in the past couple of games, though, so at least there's some progress.

Dukeford
02-07-2010, 12:40 PM
So did he lose track of the score and think that 3-pointer he hit tied the score or put them ahead? Or is he just that enamored with himself?

Or was he just celebrating because he thought they were only going to lose by 1 point?

CDu
02-07-2010, 01:14 PM
So did he lose track of the score and think that 3-pointer he hit tied the score or put them ahead? Or is he just that enamored with himself?

Or was he just celebrating because he thought they were only going to lose by 1 point?

Eh, I wouldn't give him too much grief. It was a huge shot, and it gave them a chance to at least tie at the end (with plenty of time to do so). Had they shown a little more interest in getting the play started quickly, perhaps they'd have gotten a better shot than they did. And if they force a turnover on the next inbounds play, they have a shot to win.

It was probably a bit excessive since they hadn't quite gotten over the hump. But it was a pretty big moment, and I'd guess many many Duke fans were sweating bullets when that shot went down.

Fortunately for us, we got the ball to Scheyer, and he knocked them both down. And then for some reason BC didn't seem very urgent in setting up their last shot.

Wander
02-07-2010, 01:22 PM
So did he lose track of the score and think that 3-pointer he hit tied the score or put them ahead? Or is he just that enamored with himself?

Or was he just celebrating because he thought they were only going to lose by 1 point?

Speaking of which, I was disappointed that we did not foul the ball-handler at the end of that game. I think it's something that you always have to do when you're up by 3 with 5ish or less seconds left.

Saratoga2
02-07-2010, 01:31 PM
The bigs are already averaging 20+ ppg between them. They are all improving (although the improvement of Mason and Miles is difficult to see because of their silly fouls). My suggestion is patience.


It is true that they are averaging 20 ppg, but that is a little misleading as is the BC game they had no wwaay near that. They level of ACC competition is higher than earlier in the year. We need them to get their 20 consistently and also against the better teams.

CDu
02-07-2010, 01:33 PM
Speaking of which, I was disappointed that we did not foul the ball-handler at the end of that game. I think it's something that you always have to do when you're up by 3 with 5ish or less seconds left.

Especially when you have guys like Scheyer and Smith to whom you could inbound the ball after the FT. If you're a good FT shooting team, I think it makes sense. If you're a bad FT shooting team, I think it's a bad idea.

That being said, I'm not at all surprised that we didn't foul there. Coach K has built his career on the concept that we play great defense without fouling.

Newton_14
02-07-2010, 01:49 PM
Speaking of which, I was disappointed that we did not foul the ball-handler at the end of that game. I think it's something that you always have to do when you're up by 3 with 5ish or less seconds left.

I am of the opinion that with under 5 seconds to go when up 3 you should give the foul. However, K is on record as saying he believes fouling is a bad strategy in that situation.

Reason being, it brings losing in regulation into play. If you do not foul the worst thing that can happen is they hit the 3 and send it into OT. If you foul, they could hit the first free throw and possibly hit a game winning 3 if the rebound off the missed 2nd free throw gets tipped back out to a shooter. Or they could hit both free throws and then get a steal on the inbounds and beat you with a lay up.

A lot has to go right for the team that is down but it does give them a chance however small of winning in regulation. Not fouling gives them no opportunity to win in regulation.

But like I said, personally I would choose to foul more often than not.

FWIW, the holes lost a game against Ga Tech after choosing to foul in that situation. Can remember the exact details but they were up 3, then fouled. Tech made the first, missed the 2nd, ball was tipped out and Dennis Scott hit a 3 to win it.

Or they made both and Tech stole the inbounds. Can't recall for sure, but do remember Scott hitting the 3..

Highlander
02-08-2010, 11:35 AM
You have to give credit to the team, though, when we execute the stall ball spread well, though. We've run stall ball pretty much every game we've won this season because we've won all of those games by a pretty wide margin and had ample reason to limit the number of possessions. I would argue that we have run the spread better this year than in most of the past few years. We have done an excellent job finding an open man for an open look at the end of the shot clock, and if nothing else has been open, Nolan has done an excellent job of breaking down the defense and making something happen, whether it be a score or a foul. Today, we didn't execute the spread nearly as well. I would bet a large part of that had to do with the shot clocks not working. It was also poor execution on our part. I agree that it is better to stay aggressive on offense than it is to become passive and "play not to lose" as they say. That being said, the best possible scenario is to stay aggressive on offense while simultaneously milking the clock. With the exception of today's game, we have been really good this season at executing on offense when we are protecting a lead.

I think a lot had to do with Lance Thomas fouling out with 7 min to go and being replaced by a freshman. BC made up a ton of baskets off of Plumlee's mistakes, and it almost cost us the win.

But hey, Mason got valuable gametime experience during crunch time of a conference game, which is what so many have said he needed to get, and we still pulled out the "W". I just hope the experience pays off in future games.

COYS
02-08-2010, 01:22 PM
The key stat you guys are missing is minutes: Nolan 35 mpg; Reynolds 29 mpg. I won't go "per 40" on you, but if you added 20% more stats to Reynolds (to make up for the 20% more minutes Nolan gets) you wouldn't be trying this comparison. Nolan is having a great year, but he's not Scottie Reynolds.


Kedsy, while you are right to point out minutes, the pace at which Nova and Duke play is also an important factor. Nova averages almost 74 possessions per game while Duke is hovering around 68. Nolan plays more minutes, but Nova plays at a faster pace given Reynolds more opportunities to score in his 29 minutes of play than Nolan would get in 29 minutes. Reynolds is still probably having a slightly better year, statistically, but I think the original poster was correct to say that Nolan's stats are comparable, especially once adjusted for pace.

CDu
02-08-2010, 01:29 PM
Kedsy, while you are right to point out minutes, the pace at which Nova and Duke play is also an important factor. Nova averages almost 74 possessions per game while Duke is hovering around 68. Nolan plays more minutes, but Nova plays at a faster pace given Reynolds more opportunities to score in his 29 minutes of play than Nolan would get in 29 minutes. Reynolds is still probably having a slightly better year, statistically, but I think the original poster was correct to say that Nolan's stats are comparable, especially once adjusted for pace.

Reynolds has been much more efficient as a scorer, averaging 1.58 points per shot compared to 1.30 for Smith. Smith has been less turnover prone. I'd give the edge to Reynolds for sure, but it's not that big a landslide between the two. And yes, the pace is a big factor. Reynolds would still have an edge if you pace-adjust their mpg.

Troublemaker
02-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Seemed like we pretty much abandoned the motion offense that worked so well against GT.

I don't think this is true. Duke ran the same stuff, but we just didn't shoot lights out from three like in the GT game (which is to expected -- you just can't expect to shoot like that every game, especially away from home).

Even so, against BC, Duke had its second-best offensive game away from Cameron this season. I know 66 points doesn't seem like much, but the pace of the game was slow. Duke actually scored 1.091 points per possession against BC, which is pretty good and could have easily been better had Duke made a few more FTs, especially the front-ends of 1-and-1s. So, when you take into account pace (BC was Duke's slowest game of the season), Duke actually played "pretty good" offensively, which is a step in the right direction.

Chitowndevil
02-08-2010, 04:18 PM
I am of the opinion that with under 5 seconds to go when up 3 you should give the foul. However, K is on record as saying he believes fouling is a bad strategy in that situation.


It makes for an interesting discussion, but it also depends on the team. This season Duke is holding opponents to 28.4% from 3 (6th in the nation). BC is shooting 31.4% from 3 (272nd), and has only two players shooting above 30%. Factor in the advantage of the defense concentrating entirely on the perimenter, knowing the other team must shoot a 3, and I definitely think NOT fouling was the right call on Saturday.

Troublemaker
02-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Also, Duke didn't really unveil some "new motion offense" against Georgia Tech. With a few exceptions (like the second half of the Georgetown game when Duke went to a spread offense with lots of ball screens), Duke has been running the same motion all season long.

IMO, the changes against Georgia Tech were small and not dramatic changes. I think against the Jackets, Duke set more back screens than usual to go with our constant barrage of down screens. Also, we used Singler more as a screener himself instead of just having him pop out from down screens set by his teammates for him; a couple of his open threes came when he set a back pick and then went to the 3-pt line, losing the defense in the process. Finally, and most importantly, Kyle elected to receive screens and set screens for teammates more often instead of making a 1-on-1 move from the perimeter; this was talked about in the Goodman article (http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/Changing-positions-slowed-Kyle-Singler%27s-progress-at-Duke-020610) that was linked elsewhere.

Kyle needs to continue to focus on using screens to get himself open and setting screens for teammates where appropriate because it feels like he's shooting about 15% when he goes 1-on-1 from the perimeter and settles for a pull-up jumper instead.

AtlDuke72
02-08-2010, 05:17 PM
[QUOTE=RockLobster;360422]^^This.

Mason . . . looks VERY tentative when he has the ball, and when he doesn't, he commits dumb fouls.

That pretty much accounts for all the time. I am rooting for him but haven't seen the basis for all the glowing statements about his game and potential. No better time to unleash it all than Wednesday night.

COYS
02-08-2010, 07:30 PM
Reynolds has been much more efficient as a scorer, averaging 1.58 points per shot compared to 1.30 for Smith. Smith has been less turnover prone. I'd give the edge to Reynolds for sure, but it's not that big a landslide between the two. And yes, the pace is a big factor. Reynolds would still have an edge if you pace-adjust their mpg.

Yeah, I think we pretty much agree. Reynolds is having a better statistical year (assist rate, offensive rating) in most categories, except for turnover rate. But it really is pretty close. Another streak of excellent three point shooting from Nolan during a multiple game slump for Reynolds could flip their offensive rating numbers. That being said, i think it is fair for Reynolds to be getting more attention right now as he has had a better year so far, just by a bit. The fact that we're comparing the two is music to my ears, however. Nolan has just made unbelievable strides since last year and has turned himself into one of the most dangerous guards in the country.