PDA

View Full Version : Will Duke go to zone defense?



houstondukie
02-02-2010, 09:43 PM
Around this time last year, Duke was in a funk, much like they are in now. Coach K made a significant move that turned the season around, inserting Elliot Williams into the starting rotation and moving Jon Scheyer to the PG position. Duke subsequently finished the season 10-2, won the ACCT, and lost to two very good apponents (unc and Villanova).

Coach K knows his team is limited, but I believe he is working on something to mix things up a bit. Now is the best time to work on something new, given we have a relatively long break until we play Georgia Tech.

dukebballcamper90-91
02-02-2010, 09:52 PM
I got a better chance at winning the powerball lottery than us going zone. He may shake the starting lineup a bit. I say go big against GT with LT,Zoo,Miles,Smith,Shy. Kyle come off the bench for Zoo.

Newton_14
02-02-2010, 09:55 PM
I got a better chance at winning the powerball lottery than us going zone. He may shake the starting lineup a bit. I say go big against GT with LT,Zoo,Miles,Smith,Shy. Kyle come off the bench for Zoo.

I got a better chance at winning the powerball lottery than Zoubs or anyone else starting over Singler...

Bob Green
02-02-2010, 09:58 PM
Will Duke go to zone defense?

If you are asking will Duke switch to zone defense as their primary defense, the answer is definitely no. However, I believe you will continue to see Duke employ some zone defense in various situations. But Coach K is already doing that so it isn't really a change.

DevilHorns
02-02-2010, 10:04 PM
If you are asking will Duke switch to zone defense as their primary defense, the answer is definitely no. However, I believe you will continue to see Duke employ some zone defense in various situations. But Coach K is already doing that so it isn't really a change.

There were so many easy baskets/layups for Gtown last game that I think something drastic may happen. I don't think we'll begin with zone, but I think our threshold to switch to zone may be lower.

I'm crossing my fingers for Mason miraculously improving in the next 5 or so games.

jimrowe0
02-02-2010, 10:07 PM
I'm crossing my fingers for Mason miraculously improving in the next 5 or so games.

I have been hoping for that all year!

I hope we use zone more over the next couple of games because it may be useful in the NCAAT. We may need it...

houstondukie
02-02-2010, 10:08 PM
If you are asking will Duke switch to zone defense as their primary defense, the answer is definitely no. However, I believe you will continue to see Duke employ some zone defense in various situations. But Coach K is already doing that so it isn't really a change.

How can you be so sure? Something has to change, right?

Cameron
02-02-2010, 10:16 PM
In a word, no.

If we didn't go primarily to "orange" in the Georgetown game -- like all game long with how the Hoyas were dizzying us backdoor and backside and, hell, up the middle for 40 minutes -- then we're not going to do so period.

As Bob said, I think K will continue to implement the zone when he deems it most effective, but that's probably about the extent of it.

I normally wouldn't want to see ANY zone, as I love Bobby Knight's famous pressure man-to-man and how Coach has perfected that over the years. I like fast-break basketball first, so man-to-man is going to be a favorite of mine. But, I was practically on my knees wondering where the zone was on Saturday.

Kedsy
02-02-2010, 10:19 PM
How can you be so sure? Something has to change, right?

Because K hasn't done it in 30 years. And we're 17-4 and in first place in the ACC. I don't believe "something has to change" just because we played poorly in 2 of our last 4 games. K may feel differently, of course, but he may not.

houstondukie
02-02-2010, 10:20 PM
In a word, no.

If we didn't go primarily to "orange" in the Georgetown game -- like all game long with how the Hoyas were dizzying us backdoor and backside and, hell, up the middle for 40 minutes -- then we're not going to do so period.
As Bob said, I think K will continue to implement the zone when he deems it most effective, but that's probably about the extent of it.

I normally wouldn't want to see ANY zone, as I love Bobby Knight's famous pressure man-to-man and how Coach has perfected that over the years. I like fast-break basketball first, so man-to-man is going to be a favorite of mine. But, I was practically on my knees wondering where the zone was on Saturday.

Perhaps Coach K hasn't had enough time to practice it, but now that we have 4 days between games and are in desperate need of a shake-up, Coach K may go to plan B.

Kedsy
02-02-2010, 10:23 PM
Perhaps Coach K hasn't had enough time to practice it, but now that we have 4 days between games and are in desperate need of a shake-up, Coach K may go to plan B.

Were we in "desperate need of a shake-up" after the State game? If so, we didn't get one (at least that I noticed). What's the difference now? Again, it's possible K agrees with you, but I think it's a low probability that we get something so drastic.

UrinalCake
02-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Coach K has been playing man-to-man defense at Duke for almost thirty years. He has had worse teams than this year's, teams that were less athletic, smaller, and had a worse record. And he has never abandoned this style of defense. The fact that he plays zone AT ALL this year is somewhat of a shock to me. Changing over to primarily a zone defense in the middle of the season would be a far, far greater change than inserting Elliot into the starting lineup.

It's natural to want to change things after a tough loss, but I don't think we need something so drastic and therefore risky. If we had reacted to the NC State loss by blowing up our entire defensive strategy, would we have beaten Clemson and Florida State? Maybe so, but IMO it's not time to panic.

dukebballcamper90-91
02-02-2010, 10:25 PM
State switched defenses on us and it had us messed up. Sometimes that works. Something has to change or a Baylor or VCU will put a foot in our butts come tourny time. The dunk Mason got at the end of the gtown game needs to happen more and early to add some fire.

Bob Green
02-02-2010, 10:34 PM
How can you be so sure?

Because I've been watching Coach K coached Duke teams for the past 29 years. Duke hasn't been a zone defense team since Coach Bill Foster departed.

CrazieDUMB
02-02-2010, 11:25 PM
Isn't this one of those times where we're supposed to say that coaching the Olympics was awesome for K, because now he'd consider a zone when he hasn't done it for the last 30 years? Cause that would be awesome.

Exiled_Devil
02-03-2010, 12:27 AM
Isn't this one of those times where we're supposed to say that coaching the Olympics was awesome for K, because now he'd consider a zone when he hasn't done it for the last 30 years? Cause that would be awesome.

You may have missed it in the previous posts or the games earlier this season, but we have zoned more often this year than in the last 10 years combined.

airowe
02-03-2010, 12:34 AM
Isn't this one of those times where we're supposed to say that coaching the Olympics was awesome for K, because now he'd consider a zone when he hasn't done it for the last 30 years? Cause that would be awesome.

K's already brought zone principles to Duke's defense from his time with Jim Boeheim. That's why we call it "Orange".

Duke will never be a zone D dominated team as long as K is coach. As others have mentioned, the fact that he has incorporated it at all is quite amazing in and of itself.

The changes we see this year will not be as noticeable as last year IMO. I think we'll start to see more of the inverted offense and some more playing time for Ryan and Andre, but the changes will be behind the scenes. Preparation, practice length and intensity, etc.

oldnavy
02-03-2010, 07:17 AM
I don't think that our man to man was the main problem against GT, it was players standing around and watching without focus. If we are in a zone, and play with the same lack of focus, the results would be the same.

K is using more zone this year than ever, and I like it for certain situations (read, UNC!) but the intensity and focus have to be there no matter the defensive scheme.

Devilsfan
02-03-2010, 07:56 AM
What"s this zone word? Like the Bud Light guy can't say "Love" and Woody couldn't say "Michigan", I don't think Coach can make himself say "Zone". He calls it "Orange". That's fine with me.

jv001
02-03-2010, 09:06 AM
because Coach K is a master at man to man defense and is not about to change to a defense that he is not good in coaching. If he was, he would have done in the past. Like someone said, we have had worse teams than this one and he did not go to zone. I look for some zone just to mix it up, but not our primary defense. Rebounding is one of our strengths this year and it's harder to rebound out of a zone. Go Duke!

sagegrouse
02-03-2010, 09:14 AM
To be good at something, you have to practice it, right?

One-half of practice is devoted to working with the starters and key subs on defense. What percentage of prqactices time do you think Duke spends on zone defense? 10 percent?

If K, because of the attributes of the players, decides the zone defense is best, he would start emphasizing it on day one of practice. There is no evidence he has done that, although to be sure, Duke plays a change-of-pace zone from time-to-time that K picked up from Boeheim working with the Olympic team.

IMHO [although when the Grouse pontificates the H is often silent], changing defensive schemes isn't done in the middle of the season.

sagegrouse

CrazieDUMB
02-03-2010, 09:33 AM
K's already brought zone principles to Duke's defense from his time with Jim Boeheim. That's why we call it "Orange".

Duke will never be a zone D dominated team as long as K is coach. As others have mentioned, the fact that he has incorporated it at all is quite amazing in and of itself.

Once again, I've been really happy to see Duke use some zone this year. I guess I was just expecting K to use it, say, 50% of the time instead of just 10%. Now that 10% is way more than we've ever seen, but it's not enough to make a true difference.

Some have said that moving to zone would take away from our rebounding advantage bc it's harder to rebound in a zone. Couldn't you flip that around though, and say that because duke is so big and so good at rebounding we should be able to rebound well enough in a zone?

I don't think that K is so stubborn that he's only going to use zone begrudgingly and for two or three possessions, especially when our roster is so tailored to it. We have experience (granted, not so much zone experience, but overall experience can't hurt) and major height, not to mention that great communication we hear so much about.

Wild, awesome idea for the day: K has been practicing zone exclusively in practice, and he is waiting until the ACC or maybe NCAA tournament to unleash its full power, thus giving our opponent zero scouting. The classic bait and switch! Ah, it all makes sense now! Well, at least one can dream...

House G
02-03-2010, 10:35 AM
As a long-time Duke fan, I realize that Duke plays M2M defense well over 90% of the time--so much so that I rarely notice when they deviate from this (unless it is obvious like a 2-1-2 or 2-3 zone). Also, I know that there are other defenses (so-called junk defenses) that can be utilized. However, having never coached basketball, I do not profess to know if any Duke should or is using any of these hybrids. What I have noticed (like others) is that we are getting murdered in the low post on certain occasions and are giving up too many "points in the paint". Fortunately, we have a lot of depth at this position and, although foul-prone, rarely play the end of a game without a big man. Additionally, it seems to me that teams have made adjustments to our M2M and now anticipate our help defense on a penetrating guard or a double down on their post player--they just wait for this to happen and then dish to another man for an easy layup. Has Duke been using any junk defenses or hybrids of M2M/zone, even as a diversion? Are there any armchair coaches with suggestions as to how to limit these easy chances? I know John Wall is great, but I couldn't sleep last night after watching him carve up Mississippi.

-jk
02-03-2010, 10:51 AM
What"s this zone word? Like the Bud Light guy can't say "Love" and Woody couldn't say "Michigan", I don't think Coach can make himself say "Zone". He calls it "Orange". That's fine with me.

I heard K on the radio after a game say he calls it "orange" rather than "zone" because he doesn't want the team to think of it as defending an area on the floor, but rather think of the individual, rotating matchups each player must make.

It's sometimes hard to distinguish between K's switching man (especially last year's 5-wing games) and Chaney's match-up zone. I think K has borrowed more from Chaney than Boeheim.

-jk

JimBD
02-03-2010, 10:57 AM
In my opinion, this year's Duke team is not as effective when they go for a lot of traps and steals on the perimeter, particularly when our big men get caught out there. Sure, they get a few steals, but it also spreads out our defense, causes our bigs to get cheap fouls, and opens up the middle for drives to the basket or passes to players cutting to the basket, and the other team shoots a ridiculously high field goal percentage. Duke has been more effective when primarily our guards are pressuring the perimeter, and our bigs stay back, provide help defense, and clog up the middle--the other team's shooting percentage goes down and we get more rebounds.

Reddevil
02-03-2010, 10:57 AM
Zone defense is a nice tool for the bag (especially since unc has struggled against it), and can give an opponent pause especially when they get on a run. I was surprised an in-game adjustment was not made against the Hoyas, but sometimes K likes to use difficulty as a teaching lesson. Similar to inserting EW into the starting lineup, I would not be surprised to see Dawkins start with Kyle moving to the 4 spot. A three guard approach with Singler and Miles to feed in the post would provide 5 scorers, and possibly more defensive awareness depending upon Andre's development. Of course that would leave zero guards on the bench, but it could be effective for 4-5 minute stretches.

CDu
02-03-2010, 10:58 AM
I heard K on the radio after a game say he calls it "orange" rather than "zone" because he doesn't want the team to think of it as defending an area on the floor, but rather think of the individual, rotating matchups each player must make.

It's sometimes hard to distinguish between K's switching man (especially last year's 5-wing games) and Chaney's match-up zone. I think K has borrowed more from Chaney than Boeheim.

-jk

In previous years, I'd agree. But this season we've definitely played some zone more in the lines of Syracuse's zone (not necessarily with the same success - just the same concept).

House G
02-03-2010, 11:32 AM
In my opinion, this year's Duke team is not as effective when they go for a lot of traps and steals on the perimeter, particularly when our big men get caught out there. Sure, they get a few steals, but it also spreads out our defense, causes our bigs to get cheap fouls, and opens up the middle for drives to the basket or passes to players cutting to the basket, and the other team shoots a ridiculously high field goal percentage. Duke has been more effective when primarily our guards are pressuring the perimeter, and our bigs stay back, provide help defense, and clog up the middle--the other team's shooting percentage goes down and we get more rebounds.
I agree. Whereas Sheldon Williams might have been able to help at the top of the key and then get back in the low post, Zoubs appears to have trouble with this--I would have him camp out low in the key. If Greg Monroe or Patrick Patterson beats us shooting 3's, so be it.

MChambers
02-03-2010, 12:17 PM
I agree. Whereas Sheldon Williams might have been able to help at the top of the key and then get back in the low post, Zoubs appears to have trouble with this--I would have him camp out low in the key. If Greg Monroe or Patrick Patterson beats us shooting 3's, so be it.

Shelden couldn't really help at the three point line, at least against Georgetown in 2006. But K still had him out there. Just seems like K always wants some pressure on the player with the ball, thinks it outweighs the disadvantages. Obviously, last Saturday, it didn't work out so well.

jacone21
02-03-2010, 12:48 PM
I don't think that our man to man was the main problem against GT, it was players standing around and watching without focus. If we are in a zone, and play with the same lack of focus, the results would be the same.


This.

We have to get better at defense period. That's the shake up that's needed when people are shooting 70% on you. I'd also like to see more aggression defensively from the big guys in the paint. I don't want Chaney goon ball by any means, but I'm really tired of seeing our bigs committing baby tap fouls while giving up the bucket as well. If you're going to foul, then make it count for goodness sake, or just get out of the way. I know we've been in some very physical games lately, but somebody has to give a little from time to time. Patrick Davidson would not put up with that mess in the lane. Maybe he could come back as our big man coach.

I guess I'm old school. hehe