Over reaction to UNC's Season?

[oldnavy]

Anyone that has read any of my posts knows that I love to bash UNC at every opportunity.

Having said that, does it seem that Ol Roy is taking the play of his team a little to hard? His comments about things could not be worse seem a little melodramatic to me. I can think of about 1000 ways things could be a lot worse than they are right now. Is he that wrapped up in his career that he is going to go into a state of depression because he is not winning at his usual pace?

Thoughts on Ol Roy and his reaction to the season thus far?

[houstondukie]

Anyone that has read any of my posts knows that I love to bash UNC at every opportunity.

Having said that, does it seem that Ol Roy is taking the play of his team a little to hard? His comments about things could not be worse seem a little melodramatic to me. I can think of about 1000 ways things could be a lot worse than they are right now. Is he that wrapped up in his career that he is going to go into a state of depression because he is not winning at his usual pace?

Thoughts on Ol Roy and his reaction to the season thus far?

Have to disgree with you. UNC is 2-5 in their last 7 games, including 3 straight home losses. I think the situation is pretty bad already, but it's going to get even worse - next 2 games are on the road against Virginia Tech and Maryland, then the Dukies come to the Dean Dome.

[roywhite]

Anyone that has read any of my posts knows that I love to bash UNC at every opportunity.

Having said that, does it seem that Ol Roy is taking the play of his team a little to hard? His comments about things could not be worse seem a little melodramatic to me. I can think of about 1000 ways things could be a lot worse than they are right now. Is he that wrapped up in his career that he is going to go into a state of depression because he is not winning at his usual pace?

Thoughts on Ol Roy and his reaction to the season thus far?

There's a disconnect somewhere between Roy and the team, or at least certain members. Don't know what that's about exactly; could be the players have an overly inflated view of their own ability, and expected to cruise through the season. Or that Roy's approach is not working with this group.

I've followed Penn State football for many years, actually as many as Joe Paterno has been the head coach. There have been a few years where Joe admits he "lost" the team; that they didn't pay close attention to him or he couldn't get through to them. So it happens to nearly every great coach.

One of the things I've admired the most about Coach K is that he seemingly always has honest dialogue with his team, and they generally perform to their capabilities over the course of a season.

[Newton_14]

They played that clip again tonight on the local news at 6pm. I made the comment to my wife when they showed it, that things could get a lot worse than they are now. They could go on a bad losing streak with the schedule in front of them. I do not expect that to happen of course, but at this point it is real hard to determine exactly what to expect from them the rest of the way.

To me, I think Roy fully expected that this team would come together, be a top 10 team, win the ACC and contend for a Final Four. I think he is shocked at the way they have played and at how big of a disappointment Henson has been. I keep going back to the Mich St game and how good the heels looked that night. I think that is how he expected this team to play all the time.

To be honest I think most all of us are shocked to a degree. I know G-Man and Brando were shocked by what they saw last night as they said as much near the end. It appeared against NCSU that they had righted the ship and were poised to go on a run. Last night was just bizarre. I did not bother to tune in at the beginning because I expected them to blow UVA out..

So that is my take. I think Roy in no way saw this coming, is frustrated beyond belief, and trying to figure out what he needs to do to get them playing the way they did in really both the Mich St and Ohio St games..

I learned long ago to never count them out so I enjoy the games like last night as much as possible realizing at any point they could possibly turn it around. But the clock is ticking on this current team...

[natedog4ever]

Harrison Barnes better be pretty good as a freshman, otherwise I fear for Roy's mental health. Seriously. He's starting to crack as it is, and now people are figuring out that this isn't necessarily just a one year blip, depending on who stays, who goes, and who arrives on campus ready to start from day one.

[patentgeek]

My take on Roy's comments: I understand that Roy may have been disappointed in the loss and his team's performance. However, to me his statement is a perfect example of what an arrogant, self-absorbed, classless bozo he can be. First of all, yes, Roy, it is possible for it to be worse than it is right now - your own school was worse than this in both 2002 and 2003. Also, your intra-Triangle rival, the Wolfpack, currently has exactly the same conference record and essentially the same overall record as the Heels - and is essentially on the same pace they've been on for the last 4 seasons. So, yes, Roy, it is possible for a team to be this low, if you'd look around a little bit at other programs to get some perspective.

Further, how about a little respect for Virginia? They just played a terrific game, beat you soundly on your home floor, and this is how you compliment them? By announcing that "it couldn't get any worse"? How do you think Tony Bennett feels about that?

You've won 2 national titles in the last 5 years, you've got the 2nd rated recruiting class in the country on your current squad and the No.1 recruiting class (including the hands-down best player) coming in next year, and you wonder "how can it be any worse?". Try living in a State fan's shoes, or a 'Hoos fan's shoes, or a Clemson fan's shoes for a few years. I think they could all tell Roy that it could get a lot worse.

[JStuart]

Anyone that has read any of my posts knows that I love to bash UNC at every opportunity.

Having said that, does it seem that Ol Roy is taking the play of his team a little to hard? His comments about things could not be worse seem a little melodramatic to me. I can think of about 1000 ways things could be a lot worse than they are right now. Is he that wrapped up in his career that he is going to go into a state of depression because he is not winning at his usual pace?

Thoughts on Ol Roy and his reaction to the season thus far?
I'm as mystified -and delighted- as much as any Duke/ACC fan, but what absolutely shocks me is the manner in which Roy has handled things through the media. I can't go through all the details here, but until the season is over, it sure seems to me that Roy has done everything he can to show up his players, and let them twist slowly in the wind. Don't you agree with me that he should man up, and stop wailing, 'poor me' and just promise to work as hard as he and the team can? Sure, next summer in private discussions he could say, 'these kids just didn't get it', but it serves no purpose to be so negative toward the players he has recruited. I never thought Roy would act quite this way..in public. Things must really be bad; even Matt D. didn't say things like this in press conferences, did he?

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

I think Unc maybe Loaded next year.

[natedog4ever]

I'm as mystified -and delighted- as much as any Duke/ACC fan, but what absolutely shocks me is the manner in which Roy has handled things through the media. I can't go through all the details here, but until the season is over, it sure seems to me that Roy has done everything he can to show up his players, and let them twist slowly in the wind. Don't you agree with me that he should man up, and stop wailing, 'poor me' and just promise to work as hard as he and the team can? Sure, next summer in private discussions he could say, 'these kids just didn't get it', but it serves no purpose to be so negative toward the players he has recruited. I never thought Roy would act quite this way..in public. Things must really be bad; even Matt D. didn't say things like this in press conferences, did he?

Actually, he has routinely called out indvidual players over the years after losses. It just wasn't as noticeable when the losses were so few and far between.

The more he is in the spotlight, the more people are going to see sides of him that aren't very palatable.

[natedog4ever]

I think Unc maybe Loaded next year.

Maybe, and maybe not. That's kind of the point of this thread. Everybody, likely Roy included, thought the team was loaded this year and just needed to find some outside shooting from any of several guys. That has not even been the tip of the iceberg in terms of the problems.

[dukelifer]

I think Unc maybe Loaded next year.
UNC is going through a leadership void. The senior guys are not leader material (wasn't Graves booted from the team last year?) and the young guys are deferring or losing confidence. You need leaders to have an effective team and right now- that player has not emerged. If UNC can come together- they will be fine- if not- if they have a Joe Forte problem in the locker room- then they will struggle.

[BlueintheFace]

UNC is going through a leadership void.

Looking at the personalities on that team throughout this season, I would be surprised to see UNC contend for the final four next year. However, if they can keep some pieces out of the draft, the 2011-2012 season has the potential to be one of the most epic years in Tobacco Road History.

[InSpades]

I do find Roy's behavior a bit befuddling. Personally I never bought into the "UNC is a top 5 team" theory. When you lose 4 players of the caliber that they lost... you just don't know what you are going to get. I didn't expect it to be this bad though. I definitely expected more out of their freshman than they are getting right now (Henson looked great from everything I had seen coming into the year).

It will be very interesting to see what happens w/ Davis after this year. If he leaves... UNC loses their only real strength they have this year. Their starting lineup next year would be... Drew, Graves/Strickland, Barnes, Zeller and... Wear/Henson? Unless they go smaller. Their team would be very small. I've yet to see either Wear brother play inside... can they? Otherwise it's Zeller and Henson? If they didn't get Harrison Barnes where would they be next year? He better be special or they are going to have another down year (and then he leaves after 1 year and...).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Roy is a different coach and personality than coach K.
Roy tends to wear his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. K, not so much.

Roy's tried every line up possible this season, showed anger, showed patience, complimented them, got after them...nothing he seems to be doing is getting through to them to step up their intensity. And I think he has accepted his fair share of the blame, myself. Fans sometimes put too much on a coach, credit or blame, when it's the players that have to play.

I certainly feel his frustration watching them. I thought this could be a very good defensive team, but they are not, and that has been due to lack of effort, along with communication among themselves somewhere, not talent.

In the UVA first half, I thought that UNC was way too relaxed. Their record and they were relaxed? Even a little?
Roy's screaming at them, but it was llike they were trying to be cool and let the game come to them. That's fine, if you can take charge when it does. But this team has not done that all season and the longer they let UVA stay in it, the more confident UVA got and the tighter UNC got.

You'd think they'd learn by now that they need to go at it hard from the jump? How can the guys who played with TH not get it, at the very least?

But they haven't, yet. To this point, the 8-20 team tried harder, made more effort. I still think they can turn it around, sneak into the tourney, and I won't punt just yet this season, but Roy is going to have to do a major shake up and there is absolutely no more room for error...

Here's my unscientific rankings 'O meter, just a fans opinion who's been watching, of who has shown the most effort when on the floor...Effort.

Strickland, T.Wear, D.Wear, Drew, Henson, Deon, Mcdonald, Graves, Ginyard Davis.

Three starters at the bottom of the effort list...hello?

[moonpie23]

i can't believe that anyone would fall for huck's dog and pony show...


remember, he doesn't give a **** about unc......


this is just him covering up and waiting till next year..

[hq2]

What surprises me about all of this is how little perspective on it all Roy seems to have. The guy's won two national championships in five years after more than 15 where he didn't win any. He's just one another, with one of the best teams in school history. The team is obviously not going to be as good; you don't lose your top 3 or 4 players off a national championship team and come back the next year and be just as good. Granted, Carolina has been a disappointment. But it's not as if anyone is crying for Roy's job either. He's just going to have accept that this is a rebuilding year, and just get over it. Noone would think much the worse of him if he did. But constantly berating his team like this is not doing them (or him) any good. They are what they are. Carolina will be better next year; they'll survive a down year without dying. I don't know if Roy will, though.

[BlueintheFace]

Roy is a different coach and personality than coach K.
Roy tends to wear his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. K, not so much.

Roy's tried every line up possible this season, showed anger, showed patience, complimented them, got after them...nothing he seems to be doing is getting through to them to step up their intensity. And I think he has accepted his fair share of the blame, myself. Fans sometimes put too much on a coach, credit or blame, when it's the players that have to play.

I certainly feel his frustration watching them. I thought this could be a very good defensive team, but they are not, and that has been due to lack of effort, along with communication among themselves somewhere, not talent.

In the UVA first half, I thought that UNC was way too relaxed. Their record and they were relaxed? Even a little?
Roy's screaming at them, but it was llike they were trying to be cool and let the game come to them. That's fine, if you can take charge when it does. But this team has not done that all season and the longer they let UVA stay in it, the more confident UVA got and the tighter UNC got.

You'd think they'd learn by now that they need to go at it hard from the jump? How can the guys who played with TH not get it, at the very least?

But they haven't, yet. To this point, the 8-20 team tried harder, made more effort. I still think they can turn it around, sneak into the tourney, and I won't punt just yet this season, but Roy is going to have to do a major shake up and there is absolutely no more room for error...

Here's my unscientific rankings 'O meter, just a fans opinion who's been watching, of who has shown the most effort when on the floor...Effort.

Strickland, T.Wear, D.Wear, Drew, Henson, Deon, Mcdonald, Graves, Ginyard Davis.

Three starters at the bottom of the effort list...hello?

Wheat, how has Strickland not played over ~20 minutes in any games in 2010? From the Clemson game on, it has been very obvious that his combination of heart and skill is the best on the court.

Additionally, how in the world is Ginyard getting the minutes he does? I feel like any coach in the country would have said 10 strikes is enough and decreased those minutes.

I understand Roy has tried lots of different lineups in small sample sizes and pushed lots of buttons, but it seems that he isn't learning from the results of those tweeks.

My honest opinion is that Roy has a great system and is great at recruiting players in to that system, but his two biggest weaknesses are coaching defense (which is tied to motivation) and adjusting to personnel when they don't match the system. This season has only served to support my beliefs. Do you feel that this is an unfair critique?

[ChicagoHeel]

I have no idea what's really wrong with the Heels and/ or whether Roy is a helpless by-stander trying his best or actually a part of the problem. One theory, which puts Roy in the best light and that seems quite popular, is that the players lack intensity, focus, effort, heart etc. Roy is trying to teach them, but either due to ego or inattention they aren't getting it. I'm never quite clear who it is exactly that's lacking the intensity and concentration- most recently the finger is pointed at Ginyard, but sometimes it seems like the freshman are refusing to buy into the system. Roy specifically mentioned Strickland not knowing where he should be, even though the team was in practice #53 or something.

My sense is that the major issue is that this is a team composed of particularly fragile personalities. You can expect it in freshman- most first years have trouble adjusting to the game especially if they are playing a new position like Strickland. Something that was formerly easy becomes work and the enthusiasm wanes. Thompson and Drew and more recently Ginyard seem to be particularly prone to getting down on themselves. Ginyard looked almost despondent last night; he wanted to be a leader so badly but can't overcome the injuries and the basic fact that he is fundamentally a role player. To that extent, Roy's comments that "I have to do a better job but my players lack intensity and focus" really strike me as unhelpful and overly negative. Against UVa, I saw UNC trying very hard but really frustrated and down. Watching him on the sideline and listening to his post-game comments, I think he's been too hard on the team. I can see his point of view, i.e. "I've been doing this for more than two decades and it's always worked in the past", but nonetheless I think he'd be better served by laying off the anger and expressions of disappointment in his team.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Do you feel that this is an unfair critique?


I don't happen to agree, but it's not unfair.

Coaches are paid to be second guessed by fans and it's all part of it.

Is it Roy that's not learning or the players?

As good as they were offensively, I thought that last years team played some very good defense, when they needed to.

The guy has won 80% of his games in his career, he didn't do that without making adjustments along the way.

...and I don't know how he justifies keeping Strickland behind Ginyard from this point forward.

[houstondukie]

Harrison Barnes better be pretty good as a freshman, otherwise I fear for Roy's mental health. Seriously. He's starting to crack as it is, and now people are figuring out that this isn't necessarily just a one year blip, depending on who stays, who goes, and who arrives on campus ready to start from day one.

Exactly.

Deon Thompson will be gone next year, and if Ed Davis goes pro (once obvious, now up for debate), UNC will be scary-bad in the frontcourt. They would only have four bigs on the roster:

Tyler Zeller Jr.
John Henson So.
Travis Wear So.
David Wear So.

Will Tyler Zeller ever have a healthy season? Will John Henson be ready to play 25 minutes next year?

Plus, their backcourt is still very young, despite being very talented. And Larry Drew will still be their pg.

[throatybeard]

I have no idea what's really wrong with the Heels and/ or whether Roy is a helpless by-stander trying his best or actually a part of the problem. One theory, which puts Roy in the best light and that seems quite popular, is that the players lack intensity, focus, effort, heart etc. Roy is trying to teach them, but either due to ego or inattention they aren't getting it. I'm never quite clear who it is exactly that's lacking the intensity and concentration- most recently the finger is pointed at Ginyard, but sometimes it seems like the freshman are refusing to buy into the system. Roy specifically mentioned Strickland not knowing where he should be, even though the team was in practice #53 or something.

My sense is that the major issue is that this is a team composed of particularly fragile personalities. You can expect it in freshman- most first years have trouble adjusting to the game especially if they are playing a new position like Strickland. Something that was formerly easy becomes work and the enthusiasm wanes. Thompson and Drew and more recently Ginyard seem to be particularly prone to getting down on themselves. Ginyard looked almost despondent last night; he wanted to be a leader so badly but can't overcome the injuries and the basic fact that he is fundamentally a role player. To that extent, Roy's comments that "I have to do a better job but my players lack intensity and focus" really strike me as unhelpful and overly negative. Against UVa, I saw UNC trying very hard but really frustrated and down. Watching him on the sideline and listening to his post-game comments, I think he's been too hard on the team. I can see his point of view, i.e. "I've been doing this for more than two decades and it's always worked in the past", but nonetheless I think he'd be better served by laying off the anger and expressions of disappointment in his team.

We need more of you around here, sir. This provides an "inside Carolina" view without an "Inside Carolina" attitude, and, frankly, excels the tone of this board. Please stick around.

[Bob Green]

Watching him on the sideline and listening to his post-game comments, I think he's been too hard on the team. I can see his point of view, i.e. "I've been doing this for more than two decades and it's always worked in the past", but nonetheless I think he'd be better served by laying off the anger and expressions of disappointment in his team.

The worst thing that can happen to a coach is for his team to quit on him. I have no idea whether or not the Tar Heels are ready to quit on Coach Williams, but I agree with you that he'd be better served by laying off the public expressions of disappointment.

[oldnavy]

I have no idea what's really wrong with the Heels and/ or whether Roy is a helpless by-stander trying his best or actually a part of the problem. One theory, which puts Roy in the best light and that seems quite popular, is that the players lack intensity, focus, effort, heart etc. Roy is trying to teach them, but either due to ego or inattention they aren't getting it. I'm never quite clear who it is exactly that's lacking the intensity and concentration- most recently the finger is pointed at Ginyard, but sometimes it seems like the freshman are refusing to buy into the system. Roy specifically mentioned Strickland not knowing where he should be, even though the team was in practice #53 or something.

My sense is that the major issue is that this is a team composed of particularly fragile personalities. You can expect it in freshman- most first years have trouble adjusting to the game especially if they are playing a new position like Strickland. Something that was formerly easy becomes work and the enthusiasm wanes. Thompson and Drew and more recently Ginyard seem to be particularly prone to getting down on themselves. Ginyard looked almost despondent last night; he wanted to be a leader so badly but can't overcome the injuries and the basic fact that he is fundamentally a role player. To that extent, Roy's comments that "I have to do a better job but my players lack intensity and focus" really strike me as unhelpful and overly negative. Against UVa, I saw UNC trying very hard but really frustrated and down. Watching him on the sideline and listening to his post-game comments, I think he's been too hard on the team. I can see his point of view, i.e. "I've been doing this for more than two decades and it's always worked in the past", but nonetheless I think he'd be better served by laying off the anger and expressions of disappointment in his team.

Very nice post, thanks for the UNC perspective. I have to agree, I do not see the point in continually repeating that "I have to do better". I don't think that helps the situation.
This team is struggling and it is not apparently clear as to what the major problem is, but Ol Roy coming across as borderline suicidal cannot be helpful IMO. One of Ginyard's comments was interesting, when asked how Roy has been in practice. He said something along the lines of... everything you wouldn't want your coach to be... I am not sure if he meant it how it sounded, but that could be a telling sign that Roy has lost this team and that they are not responding to him in a positive manner.

[bluepenguin]

I read several of the articles linked in the ACC Roundup. Like most Duke fans I have schadenfreude when it comes to UNC's woes. However, the articles I read seem to claim this happens to UNC once in a blue moon. Has everyone forgotten the Matt Doherty years? That was only 8 years ago. Down years happen to all programs, although with less frequency at UNC than at other schools. I guess the media needs something to go on about -- the "Duke gets all the calls" storyline has gotten a bit over played.:)

What really worries me is the Duke-UNC game. UNC really needs a signature win to turn things around. What better way to do it than beat Duke? The game is at UNC and Duke has not looked overly impressive in road games (even ignoring the debacle in DC). And no matter what the rest of the season is like for either team, they both play this game like it is the championship game (see 1994-5 season). I am really not liking the way things are shaping up for this match-up.

[left_hook_lacey]

I'm as mystified -and delighted- as much as any Duke/ACC fan, but what absolutely shocks me is the manner in which Roy has handled things through the media. I can't go through all the details here, but until the season is over, it sure seems to me that Roy has done everything he can to show up his players, and let them twist slowly in the wind. Don't you agree with me that he should man up, and stop wailing, 'poor me' and just promise to work as hard as he and the team can? Sure, next summer in private discussions he could say, 'these kids just didn't get it', but it serves no purpose to be so negative toward the players he has recruited. I never thought Roy would act quite this way..in public. Things must really be bad; even Matt D. didn't say things like this in press conferences, did he?

I'm not sure that he's blaming the players as much as he is himselft. After each of the last 2 or 3 losses, he has repeatedly said in the press conference that he's not doing a very good job as a coach. He repeated that same sentiment many, many times after the Virginia game. His answer to almost every question after that game was some version of "I've just got to be a better coach, I've got to work harder." He even said "I feel like a broken record, but I'm just not doing something right and I've got to figure out what to change to get us playing the kind of basketball I know we're capable of playing. I've got to do a better job coaching these kids."

[CLT Devil]

This season just begs the question; "Is it time for Carolina Nation to apologize to Matt D?"

Some parallels between those two years, as far as a talented team but there being some disconnect.

I think it would serve UNC well if Roy kept more of his 'gripes' in house and not air it out on his radio show...although it's hard when the callers all second guess your strategy.

Here's what I think, having grown up and being around avid Carolina fans my entire life; UNC is just like any other sports team that is accustomed to winning, Duke included to an extent, and it's vey hard for their fan bases to take a down year. The fans turn on the coach, as heard in the radio show and message boards, and in turn the coach gets defensive. Eventually it wears on the coach and he starts to lash out. I realize not all fans of a fanbase are the same, but UNC, like Duke, has plenty of casual fans due to their success who turn into rabid fans over the years and expect nothing but more Banners To The Dome.

And yes, I do get giddy when Roy cries on the radio about how "Ol Roy has the best life" but I also can feel some of his pain...or not :)

[moonpie23]

it could be my imagination, i have no proof of this, but i will make note of it going forward.

it seems to me that coach k uses the term "we" when discussing team events, trials and tribulations and Roy, Cal, Barnes and Pitino talk more separately about "me" (coach) and "they" team.

coach K seems more like he includes himself more when he refers to the team. I noticed Calimari kept making references to what HE wanted and what HE had told the team and what "they" actually did or didn't do...


Anyone else get this?

[left_hook_lacey]

Very nice post, thanks for the UNC perspective. I have to agree, I do not see the point in continually repeating that "I have to do better". I don't think that helps the situation.
This team is struggling and it is not apparently clear as to what the major problem is, but Ol Roy coming across as borderline suicidal cannot be helpful IMO. One of Ginyard's comments was interesting, when asked how Roy has been in practice. He said something along the lines of... everything you wouldn't want your coach to be... I am not sure if he meant it how it sounded, but that could be a telling sign that Roy has lost this team and that they are not responding to him in a positive manner.

I agree with chicagoheel and oldnavy. It seems to me, that this team just doesn't have an emotional leader or spark. Every great team, whether it be at Carolina or somewhere else, always seem to have 1 or 2 players that play with a chip on their shoulder and are tough as nails. Player's that might not necissarily be very vocal, but could spark a run through intensity and determination alone. This Carolina team seems to be looking around at each other as if to say "ok, this is a tight game, somebody do something" and the next thing you know, they're down by 15 and they really start to mope.

Their may be a player or two that will fit that persona on this team eventually, but if so, he/they are still lurking on the bench, or still a freshman trying to find his voice. If that's the case, may he remain silent until after the two Carolina/Duke games :D

[whereinthehellami]

Roy is a different coach and personality than coach K.
Roy tends to wear his heart on his sleeve, so to speak. K, not so much.

I don't know if it's his heart he wears on his sleeve or some combination of spittle and anger.


And I think he has accepted his fair share of the blame, myself. Fans sometimes put too much on a coach, credit or blame, when it's the players that have to play.

I think fans have a hard time watching their coach throw his own players under vehicles of varying large sizes.

And the reason that Strickland is not playing is because he apparently can't grasp the Smurfs playbook from his position underneath the nearest Chapel Hill bus. Don't confuse effort and heart with speed.

Dagumit, when is the next bus scheduled to come by the Nose Center?

[roywhite]

I'm pretty sure El-Deano would handle this bad stretch in a different way. A little more patience, emphasis on teaching, less public criticism, etc.

That said, no coach is perfect. Roy Williams has done a terrific job at Kansas and UNC; great recruiter and outstanding coach. There's still time to rescue the season---meaning win a majority of the remaining conference games, get to the NCAA tournament, and win a game or two there. It will mean some lineup changes and pulling together as a team. I don't see this Tarheel team as a championship contender, but they can certainly elevate their current level of play (and probably will, IMO).

It's an interesting story to watch.

[natedog4ever]

I'm not sure that he's blaming the players as much as he is himselft. After each of the last 2 or 3 losses, he has repeatedly said in the press conference that he's not doing a very good job as a coach. He repeated that same sentiment many, many times after the Virginia game. His answer to almost every question after that game was some version of "I've just got to be a better coach, I've got to work harder." He even said "I feel like a broken record, but I'm just not doing something right and I've got to figure out what to change to get us playing the kind of basketball I know we're capable of playing. I've got to do a better job coaching these kids."

You need to listen to the pressers a little more carefully. Right now he is doing the "not to name certain guys, but . . . we had two seniors who can't pass and catch in the first half" thing.

After Virginia, he said it again - "I won't mention a kid by name, but . . ."

He is still blaming the players, as he has done for years. No question about it.

[alteran]

Actually, he has routinely called out indvidual players over the years after losses. It just wasn't as noticeable when the losses were so few and far between.

The more he is in the spotlight, the more people are going to see sides of him that aren't very palatable.

Bingo.

I remember Roy getting almost as over-the-top in 2005, when UNC struggled at times (IIRC). I certainly remember him awkwardly joking about killing himself over the team performance, I remember him starting to use " frickin' " a lot in his press conferences, and I remember him calling his guys out publicly-- I think he once questioned McCants' heart/dedication with Rashad sitting right next to him. No wonder McCants compared UNC to a prison.

This is just who Roy is. Frankly, I'm not impressed.

But I'm also not going to delude myself that UNC is this bad. UNC's results look bad, horrible even, but there's a lot there to work with. Eventually something's going to click. God I'd love to be wrong.

[UrinalCake]

Agree that UNC isn't as bad as their record indicates. They've had a lot of injuries to deal with. UVA isn't exactly chopped liver either, they're 4-2 in the conference. UNC could still pull things together, but they need to do it soon.

Dean Smith would always place the blame on himself in order to deflect it away from his players. Whenever he criticized himself in press conferences, the media knew he was doing this. I have no idea what happened behind closed doors, but this is a far cry from how Roy Williams is currently handling things. Is it too early to dream that this will affect his recruiting?

[bird]

Responding to the thread topic more generally:

yes, everyone is overreacting. Roy just won a national championship, and lost key starters. I'd take a national championship and a serious rebuilding year any day. In fact, Duke's rebuilding years have been some of my favorite seasons.

[BD80]

... Will John Henson be ready to play 25 minutes next year? ...

Oh come on. With 30+ games in a season, he should get 150 to 200 minutes easy.


I'm not sure that he's blaming the players as much as he is himselft. After each of the last 2 or 3 losses, he has repeatedly said in the press conference that he's not doing a very good job as a coach. He repeated that same sentiment many, many times after the Virginia game. His answer to almost every question after that game was some version of "I've just got to be a better coach, I've got to work harder." He even said "I feel like a broken record, but I'm just not doing something right and I've got to figure out what to change to get us playing the kind of basketball I know we're capable of playing. I've got to do a better job coaching these kids."

This is the "aw shucks" disingenuous ol' roy that I dislike so much. He will make noises like he is taking the blame, to give the impression that he is the better man, a good role model. ... THEN he goes off on a player or two or on the whole team. Or says something to the effect of "I've been coaching my heart out, I don't understand why the players aren't learning." He always ends up making it clear that we should believe he is a good coach (and thus, it must be the players' fault).

[SupaDave]

Exactly.

Deon Thompson will be gone next year, and if Ed Davis goes pro (once obvious, now up for debate), UNC will be scary-bad in the frontcourt. They would only have four bigs on the roster:

Tyler Zeller Jr.
John Henson So.
Travis Wear So.
David Wear So.

Will Tyler Zeller ever have a healthy season? Will John Henson be ready to play 25 minutes next year?

Plus, their backcourt is still very young, despite being very talented. And Larry Drew will still be their pg.

Wow - this thread has some amazing similarities to our 2006 season. Will Davis be UNC's McRoberts - a player who should have left when the stock was sky high only to watch it plummet?

Davis = McRoberts
Zeller = Zoubek (Zeller is essentially a frosh)
Henson = Lance
Travis = McClure
David = Henderson
Drew II = Paulus
Ginyard = Nelson
Strickland = Scheyer
McDonald = Pocious

Even the years match up for the most part. About the only thing that is missing is a Thompson kind of player. And I'll let Markie fill that spot as well....

This shall be real interesting over the next couple of years...

[shoutingncu]

Wow - this thread has some amazing similarities to our 2006 season. Will Davis be UNC's McRoberts - a player who should have left when the stock was sky high only to watch it plummet?

Davis = McRoberts
Zeller = Zoubek (Zeller is essentially a frosh)
Henson = Lance
Travis = McClure
David = Henderson
Drew II = Paulus
Ginyard = Nelson
Strickland = Scheyer
McDonald = Pocious

Even the years match up for the most part. About the only thing that is missing is a Thompson kind of player. And I'll let Markie fill that spot as well....

This shall be real interesting over the next couple of years...

Barnes = Singler
Marshall = Smith
Bullock = King

[ACCBBallFan]

It's a double whammy, UNC is not as good as is in recent past and no one in he ACC is a rummy. So parity.

In retrospect, those of us who said Tyler made Davis and Deon much more effective by drawing enemy double teams while Lawson was also commanding defense's attention, were correct that when these guys instead draw the primary attention, they are good but not great players.

I was still expecting UNC to be top quadrant in ACC this year.

Couple that with losing so many and having about 3 upperclassmen with two scheduled to depart, and UNC could be where Heels have not been lately, better than most NCAA teams but not up to UNC standard.

Without Davis and Deon next year, UNC front line is not that different than what Duke had a few years with Zoubek, Lance, McClure and either McRoberts/Singler playing out of position in post.

The difference is Barnes could be a notch ahead of Henderson/Nelson if he matures as expected.

Henson could grow into player he was expected to be, but I do not expect quantum improvement from Wears who are good but not great. Having one is a plus, tying up two roster spots with journeymen could be problematic.

William Graves and Strickland have been as good or better than expected, while opposite is true of most of the others, particularly Ginyard who needs to be surrounded by cohesive stars to be a specialist. UNC is not cohesive and some of the stars are no shining as brightly as pre-season hype.

Agree Roy could have handled it better, as coaching without Tyler and Ty is much tougher than having them do the heavy lifting. Going from mostly seniors and juniors to mostly freshmen and sophs is a test for any coach.

[CDu]

Without Davis and Deon next year, UNC front line is not that different than what Duke had a few years with Zoubek, Lance, McClure and either McRoberts/Singler playing out of position in post.

The difference is Barnes could be a notch ahead of Henderson/Nelson if he matures as expected.

Henson could grow into player he was expected to be, but I do not expect quantum improvement from Wears who are good but not great. Having one is a plus, tying up two roster spots with journeymen could be problematic.

Gotta disagree a bit with this assessment. Next year, UNC will have Zeller as the center, who showed very good scoring ability at the five. They'll also have good size, rebounding, shooting ability with the Wear twins (they certainly aren't great, but they can be serviceable role players). If Henson gains a good deal of weight/strength, he could be a matchup problem at the 4. Barnes, at 6'7", provides a lot more size than Nelson/Henderson, who were 6'4" and 6'2" respectively.

They obviously would be a lot less imposing than they have been the last few years inside. But they'd still have four guys 6'9" or taller and suited to play the 4/5 spots. And they'd still have a very good top-end player or two down there.

[oldnavy]

Oh come on. With 30+ games in a season, he should get 150 to 200 minutes easy.



This is the "aw shucks" disingenuous ol' roy that I dislike so much. He will make noises like he is taking the blame, to give the impression that he is the better man, a good role model. ... THEN he goes off on a player or two or on the whole team. Or says something to the effect of "I've been coaching my heart out, I don't understand why the players aren't learning." He always ends up making it clear that we should believe he is a good coach (and thus, it must be the players' fault).

Same here. He desperatley needs it to be about him. "I've got to do this... "I've got to do that..." He is one of the most self centered coaches I can ever remember. And what is so funny is that the UNC faithful have always said that K was all about K!!

I think this team has a Ty and Tyler hangover. They do not have anyone on the court that can play with the intensity that either of those two could. You can almost see the current group looking for either Hansblah or Ty to do something spectacular... only to realize that they are not there any longer.

Gosh I love it so!!!!:)

[natedog4ever]

Fuel for the fire.

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943188.html

[Duvall]

Fuel for the fire.

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943188.html


On playing Dexter Strickland alongside Larry Drew more:
“I would like to play both of them together a little bit, particularly if we’re not getting more productive play out of the 2-spot, but at the same time, when I grade out Marcus Ginyard and he grades positive every time and I grade out Dexter and he grades out negative every time, that’s something that the typical fan does not see … It’s easy to decide who to put in the game – it’s who deserves it.”


Okay, I don't get it. Why would a coach say this?

[Greg_Newton]

Okay, I don't get it. Why would a coach say this?

Talk about a disconnect between a coach and his team. Really, you could quote that entire interview:


And we’ve wasted time this year having to coach effort. We shouldn’t have to do it. That’s the bottom line. We should not have to do that, but we’ve got to do a better job of it...
It’s hard for us. It’s hard for the kids, too. It’s hard to get into some youngster’s mind that’s 18-19-20-21 years old. We’ve talked all year long about playing with more of a sense of urgency on the defensive end of the floor. There’s no question about that. Again, it’s hard to figure out what those youngsters are thinking.



Marcus is not shooting the ball as well as we would like for him to shoot it. The problem is that we would like to find someone on our bench that would do that. We’ve given Leslie McDonald a couple of opportunities. We gave Justin [Watts] some opportunities early and no one stepped forward to do that significantly better than Marcus did, particularly when you add in that he was significantly better defensively.

I would not want my coach talking about me like that to the media. He might as well just come out and say it: "Don't look at me, it's my crappy players' fault!"

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You guys can kick the coach all you want, he gets paid for that, but it's the players fault for this teams lack of effort.
This team is not playing unprepared, they are playing unmotivated.
If the coach can't motivate them, I expect them to motivate themselves. They are big boys now.

Who else is out there on the floor to blame?
Accountability...it's a lesson that is well worth learning in their college years.

This is the highest level of Division 1 college basketball, and these kids chose to take on the challenge of playing for arguably the best college basketball program in the country.

Play hard or go home. No whining allowed. If they lose but play hard...with emotion...with energy...then we will keep working at it.

That mean 'ol coach has every right to expect...demand...more effort from this team and the individual players than he has seen. And he is allowed to vent his frustrations, this is a public game.

I saw lots of different emotions from players in the UVA game, but there was one that I never saw...anger. I have yet to see any anger from this team all year.

Somebody on that team needs to get down right mad. Grab a teammate by the neck and pin him to a locker mad. That's right, I'm sayin' Bobby Knight mad.

If Roy pointing out the players for not stepping up comes across as "throwing these sweet, sensitive kids under the bus", then so be it... this is not the pee wee league where everybody gets a trophy for showing up.

Just give me the keys to that bus and step aside if they play another game like that UVA game again...;)

[SupaDave]

You guys can kick the coach all you want, he gets paid for that, but it's the players fault for this teams lack of effort.
This team is not playing unprepared, they are playing unmotivated.
If the coach can't motivate them, I expect them to motivate themselves. They are big boys now.

Who else is out there on the floor to blame?
Accountability...it's a lesson that is well worth learning in their college years.

This is the highest level of Division 1 college basketball, and these kids chose to take on the challenge of playing for arguably the best college basketball program in the country.

Play hard or go home. No whining allowed. If they lose but play hard...with emotion...with energy...then we will keep working at it.

That mean 'ol coach has every right to expect...demand...more effort from this team and the individual players than he has seen. And he is allowed to vent his frustrations, this is a public game.

I saw lots of different emotions from players in the UVA game, but there was one that I never saw...anger. I have yet to see any anger from this team all year.

Somebody on that team needs to get down right mad. Grab a teammate by the neck and pin him to a locker mad. That's right, I'm sayin' Bobby Knight mad.

If Roy pointing out the players for not stepping up comes across as "throwing these sweet, sensitive kids under the bus", then so be it... this is not the pee wee league where everybody gets a trophy for showing up.

Just give me the keys to that bus and step aside if they play another game like that UVA game again...;)

I feel for ya Wheat. In a nut shell - this team can't take a punch in the mouth. UNC as Glass Joe...

[natedog4ever]

If Roy pointing out the players for not stepping up comes across as "throwing these sweet, sensitive kids under the bus", then so be it... this is not the pee wee league where everybody gets a trophy for showing up.

Just give me the keys to that bus and step aside if they play another game like that UVA game again...;)

The problem being that you run the risk of losing the kids, and maybe more importantly, their parents (a la the Doh debacle). Remember, these are highly ranked high school prima donnas. Recall Dex saying that K wanted to "run the show" over Irving? I wonder if Dex likes this show?

If you notice, this week K has mentioned that the Duke team is good, but limited, and the strength has definitely been the perimeter.

In Roy speak, that translates to "I have given Miles and Mason and Ryan their chances and they just stink."

[Greg_Newton]

That mean 'ol coach has every right to expect...demand...more effort from this team and the individual players than he has seen. And he is allowed to vent his frustrations, this is a public game.

The bolded sentence is the issue to me. Of course, Roy should be chewing out the whole team in the locker room, getting in their faces, calling them every name he can think of. But that should stay in the locker room. IMO, calling out your players publicly should ONLY happen when it is a specific, calculated motivational move. Roy, on the other hand, seems to consistently be doing it as a way of deflecting blame from himself.

I disagree that it's fine for him to constantly vent about his team and players to the media, whether it's a "public game" or not. Roy's comments seem to be directed towards the fans and the media, rather than his players. This creates a divide between the coach and the team, and it's just not how I would want my coach to act.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The bolded sentence is the issue to me. Of course, Roy should be chewing out the whole team in the locker room, getting in their faces, calling them every name he can think of. But that should stay in the locker room. IMO, calling out your players publicly should ONLY happen when it is a specific, calculated motivational move. Roy, on the other hand, seems to consistently be doing it as a way of deflecting blame from himself.

I disagree that it's fine for him to constantly vent about his team and players to the media, whether it's a "public game" or not. Roy's comments seem to be directed towards the fans and the media, rather than his players. This creates a divide between the coach and the team, and it's just not how I would want my coach to act.

Roy's comments have been all over the map. He's searching for a way to get through to them. Public and in the locker room, I'd bet.

Since I get a sense in this thread of some dark blue glasses viewing Roy's motivational efforts, let me slip on some light blue shades and take a look at coach K in a motivational moment...

'09, Coach K called time out late in the game and showed up his players in a 74-47 loss at Clemson. Showed them up on national T.V. Drove that bus right over them. Called time out and had them stand there embarassed, getting heckled in front of a hostile crowd with the game basicly over, out of reach. Wanted them soaking up the moment...

"They shouldn't forget this loss," Krzyzewski said. "This is as bad as you can play."

Sure, that was a calculated motivational move by K. Calculated for about one minute.
(It was a good one).

Who's to say Roy is not calculating his words to try and get through to them?

I think that was coach K being true to his style, and Roy has a different style.

Neither is "bad" in my book. They are just trying to get kids to play harder in their own way.

[natedog4ever]

Roy's comments have been all over the map. He's searching for a way to get through to them. Public and in the locker room, I'd bet.

Since I get a sense in this thread of some dark blue glasses viewing Roy's motivational efforts, let me slip on some light blue shades and take a look at coach K in a motivational moment...

'09, Coach K called time out late in the game and showed up his players in a 74-47 loss at Clemson. Showed them up on national T.V. Drove that bus right over them. Called time out and had them stand there embarassed, getting heckled in front of a hostile crowd with the game basicly over, out of reach. Wanted them soaking up the moment...

"They shouldn't forget this loss," Krzyzewski said. "This is as bad as you can play."

Sure, that was a calculated motivational move by K. Calculated for about one minute.
(It was a good one).

Who's to say Roy is not calculating his words to try and get through to them?

I think that was coach K being true to his style, and Roy has a different style.

Neither is "bad" in my book. They are just trying to get kids to play harder in their own way.

And in doing so, K called out no one. They stood there as a team, coaches and players. Do you think K or Wojo or the trainers enjoyed that? Of course not, but that is the point, it is a team effort, not simply about Marcus not being able to shoot the basketball.

[gumbomoop]

Since I get a sense in this thread of some dark blue glasses viewing Roy's motivational efforts, let me slip on some light blue shades and take a look at coach K in a motivational moment...

'09, Coach K called time out late in the game and showed up his players in a 74-47 loss at Clemson. Showed them up on national T.V. Drove that bus right over them. Called time out and had them stand there embarassed, getting heckled in front of a hostile crowd with the game basicly over, out of reach. Wanted them soaking up the moment...

Roy has a different style.

Neither is "bad" in my book. They are just trying to get kids to play harder in their own way.

I don't concede that it requires light blue glasses to analyze K's motivational moment. I commend natedog4ever's dark blue analysis of that tough moment, and find it a first-rate corrective to your flawed "bus" analogy.

You're right about those differences in style. But for more on the stylistic and substantive differences between K and Roy, I invite you to listen again to K's straightforward analysis of the Georgetown loss. [See link at post #253 in Georgetown post-game thread.] It's matter of fact, without a shred of self-pity. It neither hides the flaws nor dwells on them. He compliments Greg Monroe, with no hint of resentment that Monroe chose Georgetown.

By contrast, Roy seems, at least just now, to invite sympathy for himself, as a coach rather put-upon by his players. It is unbecoming for an adult to engage in self-pseudo-psychotherapy in public. He's not doing himself any favors with this stuff.

[DukeBlood]

You guys can kick the coach all you want, he gets paid for that, but it's the players fault for this teams lack of effort.
This team is not playing unprepared, they are playing unmotivated.
If the coach can't motivate them, I expect them to motivate themselves. They are big boys now.
I agree with most of that, but if that doesn't work the coach has to find a different way.



That mean 'ol coach has every right to expect...demand...more effort from this team and the individual players than he has seen. And he is allowed to vent his frustrations, this is a public game.
He is allowed to vent his frustrations.. But publicly calling out certain players? Sure, Call out the team, not a certain player or players. I just believe that should be left in the locker room.


I saw lots of different emotions from players in the UVA game, but there was one that I never saw...anger. I have yet to see any anger from this team all year.

Somebody on that team needs to get down right mad. Grab a teammate by the neck and pin him to a locker mad. That's right, I'm sayin' Bobby Knight mad.
It might work. It might not, There are alot more then just effort issues. What the other issues are I just cant tell. They just aren't playing as a team. Maybe that might work


Now for my own, Coach Roy is struggling with this team. What's worse he doesn't seem to have a way to fix it(as of yet). There is talent on that roster, but they just aren't putting it together(part of that is the coach's fault, part the players). Maybe all of the players EXPECT to be good, but as of right now they just aren't, and are struggling with a mere role player role. I honestly don't know, but it is interesting to watch unfold.

I do my fair share of sticking up for the UNC poster's on this board(I feel the Duke Blue shades come down on them way to hard). Having said that, There is just more then the players at fault in this one.

[oldnavy]

You guys can kick the coach all you want, he gets paid for that, but it's the players fault for this teams lack of effort.
This team is not playing unprepared, they are playing unmotivated.
If the coach can't motivate them, I expect them to motivate themselves. They are big boys now.

Who else is out there on the floor to blame?
Accountability...it's a lesson that is well worth learning in their college years.

This is the highest level of Division 1 college basketball, and these kids chose to take on the challenge of playing for arguably the best college basketball program in the country.

Play hard or go home. No whining allowed. If they lose but play hard...with emotion...with energy...then we will keep working at it.

That mean 'ol coach has every right to expect...demand...more effort from this team and the individual players than he has seen. And he is allowed to vent his frustrations, this is a public game.

I saw lots of different emotions from players in the UVA game, but there was one that I never saw...anger. I have yet to see any anger from this team all year.

Somebody on that team needs to get down right mad. Grab a teammate by the neck and pin him to a locker mad. That's right, I'm sayin' Bobby Knight mad.

If Roy pointing out the players for not stepping up comes across as "throwing these sweet, sensitive kids under the bus", then so be it... this is not the pee wee league where everybody gets a trophy for showing up.

Just give me the keys to that bus and step aside if they play another game like that UVA game again...;)

Wheat, of course it is Roy's responsibility. He is the Captain of the ship. He can delegate authority, but he cannot delegate responsibility. It just doesn't work that way and all the talk about players grading out negative every time, and players not shooting well comes across as trying to delegate the responsibility of the teams poor performance.

Everyone knows that the players have to play the game, but the coach is responsible for connecting to the players and getting them to buy into his system and play his style. The coach is responsible for motivating players, and if he cannot, then he is responsible for recruiting un-motivatable players.

Roy is getting paid millions of dollars to be responsibe for this team, hold him accountable.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat, of course it is Roy's responsibility. He is the Captain of the ship. He can delegate authority, but he cannot delegate responsibility. It just doesn't work that way and all the talk about players grading out negative every time, and players not shooting well comes across as trying to delegate the responsibility of the teams poor performance.

Everyone knows that the players have to play the game, but the coach is responsible for connecting to the players and getting them to buy into his system and play his style. The coach is responsible for motivating players, and if he cannot, then he is responsible for recruiting un-motivatable players.

Roy is getting paid millions of dollars to be responsibe for this team, hold him accountable.

I think we actually agree, but lean in different directions.

I'm a players's kind of guy. I don't give coaches too much credit, or blame. Certainly a good coach can win a game, good prep, the right play call, motivation etc... but "at the end of the day" (don't you hate that), players have to play...and make plays.

Of course, in the big picture, everything is the head coaches's responsibility. He did recruit them. And ultimately, Roy will be held responsibile, as he should.

Roy just answers the questions put in front of him for the most part and lets the chips fall where they may. He's and open, emotional guy. Shucks, he comes across a pretty darn honest to me. ;)

That leaves him pretty open to internet assasination by fans from every side.

Coack K is a little different, wouldn't you say? A little more, no a lot more, guarded...

Like all coaches and politicians, Roy will dodge stuff, but he will tell you what he thinks most of the time. Just the way he is.

[77devil]

An organizational psychologist I know uses video clips of Bobby Knight, Roy Williams(from the Kansas era) and Coach K to demonstrate leadership styles in building and motivating high performing teams. His premise, agree or disagree, is that Roy exemplifies a leadership style that is too emotionally soft(crying in public), and equivocal(deflecting accountability), to produce maximum effectiveness. Of course, the clips are only a short illustration used to make a point.

[gumbomoop]

Roy just answers the questions put in front of him for the most part and lets the chips fall where they may. He's and open, emotional guy. Shucks, he comes across a pretty darn honest to me. ;)

That leaves him pretty open to internet assasination by fans from every side.

Coack K is a little different, wouldn't you say? A little more, no a lot more, guarded...

Like all coaches and politicians, Roy will dodge stuff, but he will tell you what he thinks most of the time. Just the way he is.

Compared to the assassins over on IC, posters here on DBR are merely lashing Roy with a wet noodle. So you're right about "fans from every side," but the assassins these days are all dressed in light blue. It's ugly over there.

To the merits: Yes, K is different, but not "more guarded." [If you want "guarded," re-run the Dean Smith tapes over the decades. A great, great coach who was super conscious of public image, and routinely felt compelled to "translate" his players' comments, to make them turn out right, PR-wise.]

I re-invite you and anyone else to listen to K's post-Georgetown analysis. [See link at post #253 on Georgetown post-game thread.] K's not at all "guarded" there; he's informal, low-key, straightforward, humorous a couple of times, honest about his team's lousy performance - and more important about Georgetown's wonderful game - and equally honest about his team's solid promise.

I acknowledge that K has in the past been pissy in news conference situations, and expect his less appealing side will appear again occasionally in the future. But he seems rather less guarded than in the past, more confident in his own skin, more straightforward, more matter-of-factly analytical. Altogether very interesting to listen to. Rather than "guarded," we get a few inside-stuff insights. No 3d person crap. Crap.

This isn't Roy's strength. [And he has some, probably more than enough to do quite nicely for years to come.] I do not concede that all coaches are equally embarrassing when things go south. And I suspect Roy will, for his own sanity, try to find a different way to debrief his team's play. I think he will soon realize that, as with the "Presbyterian story," he needs to stop digging.

I also think - but heaven knows I don't know why - UNC will recover and win more than I would personally prefer the rest of this season. So probably Roy will not further self-destruct.

[oldnavy]

I think we actually agree, but lean in different directions.

I'm a players's kind of guy. I don't give coaches too much credit, or blame. Certainly a good coach can win a game, good prep, the right play call, motivation etc... but "at the end of the day" (don't you hate that), players have to play...and make plays.

Of course, in the big picture, everything is the head coaches's responsibility. He did recruit them. And ultimately, Roy will be held responsibile, as he should.

Roy just answers the questions put in front of him for the most part and lets the chips fall where they may. He's and open, emotional guy. Shucks, he comes across a pretty darn honest to me. ;)

That leaves him pretty open to internet assasination by fans from every side.

Coack K is a little different, wouldn't you say? A little more, no a lot more, guarded...

Like all coaches and politicians, Roy will dodge stuff, but he will tell you what he thinks most of the time. Just the way he is.

I believe K's personality and approach is better suited for ups and downs than Roy's. Roy does very well when things are going good. He is loose and just a good ol boy. He can laugh and poke fun and it all comes off as fun. But, he struggles when he is being criticized and things are not going well. He strikes a defensive posture and makes it very clear that he is doing his part, and it is everyone else that is failing to do their part. Yes, I know that he says that he has to do better, and such, but it is apparent to me that he is just mouthing the words because he is expected to take the blame. I never get the feeling that he really believes that he has to work harder, in fact I get the exact opposite impression. He comes across as if he feels he shouldn't have to be working as hard as he is...

K on the other hand, always seems to understand that it is his responsibility for the team’s performance and he alone is accountable. I don't know, but I expect that stems from his military officer training. One thing that you are taught from day one in the military is that as an officer you are held responsible for the actions of those under your command. If an officer ever tried to deflect responsibility for the performance of his or her unit they would be quickly corrected and made to understand in such a way that they would not make that mistake again.

Roy has been very successful and I would bet the farm that he will continue to be very successful, so he most likely will not change how he deals with the adversity, he really has no need to. But personally, I prefer how K handles both the ups and the downs.

[BD80]

... If Roy pointing out the players for not stepping up comes across as "throwing these sweet, sensitive kids under the bus", then so be it... this is not the pee wee league where everybody gets a trophy for showing up.

Just give me the keys to that bus and step aside if they play another game like that UVA game again...;)

Here are the keys, I've got the bus warmed up for you!

BTW, I think you have to make a left at the training room ... :)


My issue with ol' roy is that he is completely two-faced. He tells the press he needs to be a better coach, but then he calls out his players (as a team AND individually) in the press. I don't recall Coach K calling out his players in the press. Chronicle writers are a different story.

[natedog4ever]

And the beat goes on . . .

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943721.html

[UrinalCake]

And the beat goes on . . .

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943721.html

Maybe he needs to attend Coach K's Leadership Academy!

“Looking back on it, I wish I had majored in psychology as opposed to health and physical education... my college education would have been much more valuable if I were a better psychologist"

[Bob Green]

Wheat, of course it is Roy's responsibility. He is the Captain of the ship. He can delegate authority, but he cannot delegate responsibility.

Ah...spoken like a true Navy man!

[natedog4ever]

Now he's got a sound bite on local radio saying "Let's get this clear guys, I'm not bashing the kids, I've got a part in this too."

Must have been reading this thread.

[BD80]

Now he's got a sound bite on local radio saying "Let's get this clear guys, I'm not bashing the kids, I've got a part in this too."

Must have been reading this thread.

Translation:


Yes I'm bashing the kids. I just don't want you saying I'm bashing the kids.

[BD80]

Maybe he needs to attend Coach K's Leadership Academy!

“Looking back on it, I wish I had majored in psychology as opposed to health and physical education... my college education would have been much more valuable if I were a better psychologist"

Sounds like an admission that his college studies left him ill-prepared to teach teen age young men ..

Per Wikipedia:


Williams graduated in 1972 with a bachelor's degree in education and later received an M.A.T. (Masters of Arts in Teaching) in 1973 from North Carolina

[Duvall]

Now he's got a sound bite on local radio saying "Let's get this clear guys, I'm not bashing the kids, I've got a part in this too."

Not bashing the kids (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943721.html):

"But also, I get tired of worrying about somebody’s psyche. My God, play the dadgum game. That’s what it boils down to. And I’ve tried. They understand that I’m tired of that part… It’s time to play. Either play or don’t play.”

"I've told them that I have never had to coach concentration and effort as much as I feel like I'm trying to coach that now. They should be able to supply that."

Well, okay then.

[chrisheery]

Not bashing the kids (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/943721.html):

"But also, I get tired of worrying about somebody’s psyche. My God, play the dadgum game. That’s what it boils down to. And I’ve tried. They understand that I’m tired of that part… It’s time to play. Either play or don’t play.”

"I've told them that I have never had to coach concentration and effort as much as I feel like I'm trying to coach that now. They should be able to supply that."

Well, okay then.

Who recruited these kids? Yeah, he did. So, blame yourself if you can't coach them because you chose style over substance and athleticism (potential) over coachability. When you recruit, it is your job to make sure the players will listen when they arrive. I am not saying anyone can do this perfectly, but he gets credit when he recruits studs. He should take the blame when he recruits duds.

[RoyalBlue08]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

[DevilHorns]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

They've won two championships in the last 5 years. We have won zero. I want them to lose to Maryland by 20. And then, I want them to lose to us by 30. That'll thin out even more of their bandwagoners (if they for some reason havent jumped boat yet)

[Kedsy]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

Sorry, doesn't matter how rational you are, I simply can't root for them to win anything.

[BlueintheFace]

I honestly think Roy just went over the line:

"'Ginyard is shooting just 6-of-28 since returning from the injury. Williams called Ginyard a "marvelous kid" but also said he's tired of worrying about his psyche:

'It's put up or shut up kinda time," Williams said. "I get tired of worrying about somebody's psyche. I mean, my God, play the dadgum game."'

[moonpie23]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...


NO !!!



feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.


SMACK !!!! you're nuts....

[alteran]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

SMACK!

You're nuts.

Every time UNC wins, global warming gets worse, ice cream doesn't taste as good, and puppies die. Every time UNC loses, flowers bloom, hippies sing, and an angel gets it's wings.

Snap out of it, man!

[edit]I swear I didn't read moonpie's post before posting this. Hilarious.

[OldSchool]

Sorry, doesn't matter how rational you are, I simply can't root for them to win anything.

Agreed.

The best result would be for UNC to lose, and then for Maryland to have to vacate the win as a penalty for disgusting over-the-line behavior by its repulsive fans.

[Duvall]

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

It's UNC. When they stumble, knock them down. When they fall, kick them. It doesn't happen nearly often enough, so enjoy it when it does.

[sagegrouse]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

I am fine with us having to beat Maryland twice to win the ACC regular season. Go Terps! Kick those Heels!

I dislike the Terps fans, but I don't hate their team. Plus, Gary is one of only three coaches in the ACC who's not buttoned down and acts like he feels -- which is often weird. It's almost like the others except Seth and Ol' Roy are imitating Coach K's self control. Seth and Roy, however, are much harder to take than Gary. Seth is Don Rickles without the humor, and Ol' Roy's every utterance sounds like he is lying on the couch of his shrink. But Roy's country boy act is also to show self control.

I really miss characters like Jimmy V., Lefty, old-timer Bones McKinney, hysterically funny Bobby Cremins, and even that total blowhard, Tates Locke at Clemson. I don't miss Frank McGuire.

sagegrouse

[jhole]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

During the Dougherty era I was chatting with my main Duke buddy and in a weak moment I blurted out that it was no longer fun to watch UNC lose as they were so bad. My good friend intervened and rescued me from this lapse in judgement with the statement that it is ALWAYS good for UNC to lose - period - and that he never wanted to hear me say that again!

Today, I do the same for you....repent!

Oh, and you're nuts...

[weezie]

Hear ye, hear ye, beat them hard and often. The sun shines brighter when the baby blues get spanked.

[natedog4ever]

Hoo boy. This behavior may start to get a lot uglier for the program if somebody doesn't reign him in.

In the post-game presser tonight, he was asked about John Henson and his break-out game, and he actually knocked Henson, saying he got lucky on one play, can't take the contact, and somehow ended up 10 feet away from the basket when he tried to drive. Then he said he doesn't know what is going on in these kids heads, especially John's. They then asked why he wasn't in at the end of the game, and he says, "it doesn't matter who is in the game, they need to win as a team."

I'm telling you he is starting to crack.

[verga]

i wish we could buy popcorn and watch together as he self destructs, seriously, what do you think Henson and the rest of the team thinkl when they hear talk like that?
:)

[striker219]

i wish we could buy popcorn and watch together as he self destructs, seriously, what do you think Henson and the rest of the team thinkl when they hear talk like that?
:)

For the record, I enjoy seeing them lose and would like them to lose to Maryland regardless of any other facts, as irrational as that may be (to make my position on the discussion perfectly clear), but I would like them to lose as a team. I would even like to see them self destruct throughout the rest of the season, but as a team, not on an individual level. I hold no malice against any individual player, and although I know that their team is made up of spoiled prima donna's (note: I'm not limiting this fact to Kerlina, but really to 99% of any highly recruited athletes for any school playing any sport, it's just the nature of the game) there is still a part of me that doesn't like to see any 18 or 19 year old kid get dumped on like this.

ROY, YOU ARE BEING PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR THESE WINS/LOSSES, YOUR TEAM HOPEFULLY ISN'T, ACT LIKE IT.

Of course, there is a part of me that wonders, "hmmm, I wonder if Henson is tweeting about how Roy just made him feel a little less relevant tonight." But I really do strive to be more grown up than that.

[BD80]

Hoo boy. This behavior may start to get a lot uglier for the program if somebody doesn't reign him in.

In the post-game presser tonight, he was asked about John Henson and his break-out game, and he actually knocked Henson, saying he got lucky on one play, can't take the contact, and somehow ended up 10 feet away from the basket when he tried to drive. Then he said he doesn't know what is going on in these kids heads, especially John's. They then asked why he wasn't in at the end of the game, and he says, "it doesn't matter who is in the game, they need to win as a team."

I'm telling you he is starting to crack.

From ol' roy's postgame remaks:


Ahh, but the substitutions thats... thats where I had
them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the
shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that substitution
is a key and a winning lineup DID exist, and I'd have produced
that winning lineup if they hadnt stopped playing for me. I, I, I know
now they were only trying to protect some fellow players...

[AlaskanAssassin]

Okay, I'm not sure whether this is worth the read to post a new thread nor do I know which thread this belongs to, let me know:

http://www.collegefantasyhoopsinsider.com/article/14025/The-Frosh-Pit

[BlueintheFace]

I think Roy is definitely flirting with that line you should never cross as a coach. That line between constructive criticism and actually bashing or blaming a kid following a loss.

I understand it is the kids who play the game, but Roy really is getting out of hand here.

[stickdog]

Roy obviously needs a short term substitute to take his place as UNC's head coach for this rest of the season in order to recharge his batteries and regain his bearings.

What's Pete Gaudet up to nowadays?

[UrinalCake]

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

You've already received your share of abuse (jokingly, of course) so I'll only speak to this point... I would rather Carolina be coming in with a losing streak than off of a win over Maryland. A win would give them confidence that they could beat us too. A loss would have them on the edge (even more so than they are already) and on the verge of falling apart. In theory they could channel that desperation into positive effort and therefore play harder against us, but I really don't see this year's team doing that.

[oldnavy]

From ol' roy's postgame remaks:

What the heck? I am telling you this is great theater. Ol Roy is going to have a public meltdown soon!

I would not be surprised to see kids transfering after this year. He has really gone over the line here. I know he has already lost Ginyard mentally, but now he is starting in on Henson, basically calling him weak.

This is going to be fun to watch!!! This will be even better than Doherty crying at his press conference after his first ACC win.:D

[Kedsy]

From ol' roy's postgame remaks:


Ahh, but the substitutions thats... thats where I had
them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the
shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that substitution
is a key and a winning lineup DID exist, and I'd have produced
that winning lineup if they hadnt stopped playing for me. I, I, I know
now they were only trying to protect some fellow players...


That wasn't from the postgame remarks. You were watching the made-for-TV movie, The North Cainelina Mutiny.

[alteran]

I think Roy is definitely flirting with that line you should never cross as a coach. That line between constructive criticism and actually bashing or blaming a kid following a loss.

I understand it is the kids who play the game, but Roy really is getting out of hand here.

Flirting with that line? He's married that line, and appears to be getting ready to sire offspring. :D

[jjasper0729]

For the first time I can remember, I think I am rooting for a UNC win on Sunday....wait, wait, hear me out...

First of all, Maryland is tied with us in the loss column, and it would be nice to get some separation from them for the regular season title.

Secondly, it's Maryland....not exactly a tough team to root against.

And finally, I would rather not play UNC when they are on a three game (or whatever it would be) losing streak.

This all seems reasonable to me, although feel free to slap me and tell me I'm nuts.

*jumping on the dogpile*


SLAP! you're nuts!

Anytime they lose is a great day. I'm at work (which is mostly NCSU and UNC people) with my Duke shirt on loving every minute of it. I want more of 8-20 myself.

[BD80]

That wasn't from the postgame remarks. You were watching the made-for-TV movie, The North Cainelina Mutiny.

Give that man a Strawberry!

It is easy to confuse the two:


There is no escape from the Cainelina, save
death. Were all doing penance, sentenced to an outcast ship,
manned by outcasts, and named after the greatest outcast of them
all.


This is the offense; to operate, all you need is any
group of well-trained monkeys. 99 percent of everything we do is
strict routine. Only one percent requires creative intelligence.


This is the coach speaking.
Some misguided players on this team still think they can pull a
fast one on me. Well, theyre very much mistaken. Since youve
taken this course, the innocent will be punished with the guilty.
There will be no liberty for any member of this team for three
months. I will not be made a fool of! Do you hear me?


Doctor. You have testified that the following
symptoms exist in Coach William's behavior. Rigidity
of personality, feelings of persecution, unreasonable suspicion, a
mania for perfection, and a neurotic certainty that he is always in
the right. Doctor isnt there one psychiatric term for this
illness?


No. I must have been mistaken. No similarities here.

His role as Queeg would have won Bogie an Oscar but for Brando "On the Waerfront"

[shoutingncu]

...I would rather Carolina be coming in with a losing streak than off of a win over Maryland. A win would give them confidence that they could beat us too...

Like winning at NC State did? I said going into that game that the thing I feared was playing emotionally for the W and then laying an egg against Virginia. It took until the second half against UVa, but they clucked it up nicely.

The talent just isn't there to compete with Duke (or most of the ACC, it would seem) this year. Going into the season, I would not have believed it, but I can't ignore facts. So now, I just try to enjoy the little things (like Henson's playing time, Roy's comments aside), and small victories (like the aforementioned NC State one), and hope that the team brings that emotion to the Dome on Wednesday, because the talent gap is too great, otherwise. Of course, the improbable unc win would actually serve to frustrate me all the more, because why wouldn't the team play with that kind of intensity all season?

[UrinalCake]

The talent just isn't there to compete with Duke (or most of the ACC, it would seem) this year. Going into the season, I would not have believed it, but I can't ignore facts.

A very humble statement, which I respect. What's amazing to me is how quickly things have changed. Just a few months ago fans of both schools saw things very, very differently. The peak for me was probably when Harrison Barnes announced he was going to UNC. At that point, Carolina was dominating us and it appeared they would continue to do so for the foreseeable future. There was no hope that we could ever compete. Today, Duke is in the penthouse with awesome talent coming in next year and a number of blue-chippers on our radar. Carolina is also bringing in talent, but if some of the current young guys don't pan out then next year they may not yet catch up to us. Good times...

[CDu]

A very humble statement, which I respect. What's amazing to me is how quickly things have changed. Just a few months ago fans of both schools saw things very, very differently. The peak for me was probably when Harrison Barnes announced he was going to UNC. At that point, Carolina was dominating us and it appeared they would continue to do so for the foreseeable future. There was no hope that we could ever compete. Today, Duke is in the penthouse with awesome talent coming in next year and a number of blue-chippers on our radar. Carolina is also bringing in talent, but if some of the current young guys don't pan out then next year they may not yet catch up to us. Good times...

I think this shows how sensitive college basketball can be to the success of one or two recruits per year.

I made a post a little while back going through the 2004-2009 seasons and illustrated how if one or two recruits turned out differently we'd have been a legit Final-Four/championship candidate in each of the last six years. Essentially, if we'd had another big man develop in the Williams years, and if we'd had an elite playmaking PG in the latter years, we're right there.

UNC is seeing the same thing this year. If they could have replaced Ellington's ability to score on the wing this year, I think they're a sure-fire tournament team.

[shoutingncu]

UNC is seeing the same thing this year. If they could have replaced Ellington's ability to score on the wing this year, I think they're a sure-fire tournament team.

I agree. As obvious as the Big 3's contributions were the last few years, I felt Danny Green's overall production might actually be missed the most.

I didn't get into the Will Graves conversations earlier in the year (except to point out his production versus J. Watts) because I didn't want to knock a player, but I truly felt that if he were in the starting line-up, we'd be in trouble. And I actually think his unexpected offensive play has proved that to be true, oddly enough. The fact that we need him to hit multiple threes every other game to keep defenses honest for small stretches at a time speaks to the talent level that we have on the team. Now, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be starting, because I'm not sure of the alternative... I had just hoped pre-season that we did, in fact, actually have an alternative.

[CDu]

I agree. As obvious as the Big 3's contributions were the last few years, I felt Danny Green's overall production might actually be missed the most.

I didn't get into the Will Graves conversations earlier in the year (except to point out his production versus J. Watts) because I didn't want to knock a player, but I truly felt that if he were in the starting line-up, we'd be in trouble. And I actually think his unexpected offensive play has proved that to be true, oddly enough. The fact that we need him to hit multiple threes every other game to keep defenses honest for small stretches at a time speaks to the talent level that we have on the team. Now, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be starting, because I'm not sure of the alternative... I had just hoped pre-season that we did, in fact, actually have an alternative.

Yeah, I should have said they need to replace both Ellington and Green. I think a big part of the problem is that the Heels are asking two role players (Ginyard and Graves) to do more than they're really capable of doing.

I think if all was right for UNC, Strickland would be a fairly consistent double-digit scorer, Ginyard would be starting at the 3 as a spotup shooter and defensive specialist, and McDonald and Graves would come off the bench to provide offense as needed. But being forced to play Graves and Ginyard 25+ mpg each and carry the perimeter scoring load really exposes the limitations of both players.

[Newton_14]

Looks like it has gotten so bad ol roy is looking back to the good ol days...
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/6985978/

[CameronBornAndBred]

The way I'm feeling now I'm wondering if I'm worth anything, wondering what I'm doing.

This is from Roy. This is from a head coach.
Way to excude confidence Roy, when you publicly say you don't have any in yourself. What a true leader you are.
If K ever said that, Duke fans would have a melt down, and deservedly so.

[roywhite]

This is from Roy. This is from a head coach.
Way to excude confidence Roy, when you publicly say you don't have any in yourself. What a true leader you are.
If K ever said that, Duke fans would have a melt down, and deservedly so.

You're right...certainly wouldn't expect this from Coach K.

Additionally:
1. It's also not the way Dean Smith would have handled things---there wouldn't have been the public laments, and the criticism of individual players.
2. In making this into a "woe is me" story, Roy seems to be reducing the chances that things are fixed this season. They'll certainly want to beat Duke this week, and that might make things better for a while, but they're close to losing the season and losing a good team/coach relationship.

[devildeac]

This is from Roy. This is from a head coach.
Way to excude confidence Roy, when you publicly say you don't have any in yourself. What a true leader you are.
If K ever said that, Duke fans would have a melt down, and deservedly so.

Smoke screen.

He petitioned the ncaa and found 1 more game of eligibility for mj, hans and ty.

[blueprofessor]

Huck says recruiting problems. Needs to wave more cookies at top recruits!

Don't read if you cry easily.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Best regards and Beat UNC!
Blueprofessor:)

[BlueintheFace]

You want to know how Dean would deal with this?

He'd say,

DEAN: "We aren't a very good basketball team right now"
Reporter: Why?
DEAN: "We aren't getting back on defense to shut down lanes for the break, we aren't getting enough ball movement, and we aren't shooting the ball very well." (takes a draw)
Reporter: Your seniors have really struggled, can you talk a little about their play and leadership.
DEAN: We have senior leadership on this team, but we are struggling as a team.
Reporter: Is this hard for you to stomach given your recent success?
DEAN: It's always hard to lose. Coaches take losses harder than they enjoy the wins. Any coach will tell you that. (steps on butt after throwing it on ground)

.... or something like that.
Now, compare to Roy.

[roywhite]

Huck says recruiting problems. Needs to wave more cookies at top recruits!

Don't read if you cry easily.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Best regards and Beat UNC!
Blueprofessor:)

Roy's pathos aside, there is a flaw in NC's recruiting that Duke is somewhat susceptible too, also.

IMO, it has to do with choosing and getting commitments from highly rated players, who are 2 or more years away from actually enrolling and playing. Seems like UNC under Roy has been getting more and more commitments from guys that are sophomores or early in their junior season.

The gurus aren't always right, and there's additional chance thrown in just from projecting a 16-year old to how will they play at age 18-22.

There are some good freshmen in the league that were not 5-star McDonald's All-America types. CJ Harris and the Stewart kid from Wake Forest, for example.

Kendall Marshall is supposed to be the next PG for UNC, and he was at the top of the lists as a sophomore. But now he's getting outplayed by other high school players. It's just hard to tell sometimes, and getting early commitments is a mixed blessing at best.

[striker219]

You want to know how Dean would deal with this?

He'd say,

DEAN: "We aren't a very good basketball team right now"
Reporter: Why?
DEAN: "We aren't getting back on defense to shut down lanes for the break, we aren't getting enough ball movement, and we aren't shooting the ball very well." (takes a draw)
Reporter: Your seniors have really struggled, can you talk a little about their play and leadership.
DEAN: We have senior leadership on this team, but we are struggling as a team.
Reporter: Is this hard for you to stomach given your recent success?
DEAN: It's always hard to lose. Coaches take losses harder than they enjoy the wins. Any coach will tell you that. (steps on butt after throwing it on ground)

.... or something like that.
Now, compare to Roy.

That doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

As much as I hated Dean and hated having him down the road, I always had to respect him as a basketball coach. His abilities and his impact on the game are impossible to deny. Roy is a fantastic recruiter but in my eyes (and I know I'm not alone here) he hasn't proven himself as either a great x's-and-o's guy or a great game prep coach.

And this increasingly whiny side really doesn't jive with the down home good ol' boy side. Seems to me that the down home good ol' boy side in him would step up and slap around the "whoa is me" whiny side of his personality. Could it be that it's all an act?

[BD80]

Huck says recruiting problems. Needs to wave more cookies at top recruits!

Don't read if you cry easily.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Best regards and Beat UNC!
Blueprofessor:)

It is amusing that ol' roy is willing to blame the "loss" of Wayne Ellington to the NBA for an abysmal season, but fails to credit Hans and Lawson sticking around as the reason he won a championship.

[MChambers]

Roy's pathos aside, there is a flaw in NC's recruiting that Duke is somewhat susceptible too, also.

IMO, it has to do with choosing and getting commitments from highly rated players, who are 2 or more years away from actually enrolling and playing. Seems like UNC under Roy has been getting more and more commitments from guys that are sophomores or early in their junior season.

The gurus aren't always right, and there's additional chance thrown in just from projecting a 16-year old to how will they play at age 18-22.

There are some good freshmen in the league that were not 5-star McDonald's All-America types. CJ Harris and the Stewart kid from Wake Forest, for example.

Kendall Marshall is supposed to be the next PG for UNC, and he was at the top of the lists as a sophomore. But now he's getting outplayed by other high school players. It's just hard to tell sometimes, and getting early commitments is a mixed blessing at best.

And on the other side, if you do happen to get a very good player, how long do they stick around? And can you recruit a backup as long as they are there?

[77devil]

Huck says recruiting problems. Needs to wave more cookies at top recruits!

Don't read if you cry easily.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Best regards and Beat UNC!
Blueprofessor:)

C'mon Roy, man up for crying out loud. This is embarrassing even for a tarhole.

[BD80]

I enjoy the speculation as to whether the heels will even make the NIT!

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/6982349/

[airowe]

I enjoy the speculation as to whether the heels will even make the NIT!

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/6982349/

They'll make it. They changed the rule that you have to have a winning record in 2005.

UNiTC.

I wish it was UNCBI.

[wilko]

May their woes continue every time we play them....

[Chitowndevil]

C'mon Roy, man up for crying out loud. This is embarrassing even for a tarhole.

No kidding. K has taken his lumps for being pretty closed off to the media, but it actually makes me feel good that, regardless of Duke's record, I won't have to read this kind of stuff from him.

Really that Yahoo article is beyond ridiculous. Carolina's recruiting since the arrival of Roy Williams has been, in my opinion, the best in the country.

And, for what it's worth, Pomeroy's projections have Carolina going 2-6 over their last 8 games.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It is amusing that ol' roy is willing to blame the "loss" of Wayne Ellington to the NBA for an abysmal season, but fails to credit Hans and Lawson sticking around as the reason he won a championship.

The dark blue shades are showing...It was simply Roy addressing the issues. I think you guys are trying to read much more into it all than is there.

I don't see anything in that article that is not the truth. And Roy clearly accepts the blame for how poorly the team is playing, as he should.

(I don't have to, I blame the players for lack of consistant effort.)

These are the quotes that tell the story...

“I haven’t done a good job with this team,” he said. “As a coach, to say that … it’s hard. It really is.”

“People are always going to criticize and nitpick at things that they don’t understand. The bottom line is that I’ve got to coach who we have. If I make a great decision in recruiting or a bad decision in recruiting, I’ve still got to coach them.”

How much more clearly can a coach be to show he accepts his responsibility as the coach?

“I’ve spent time going over our practice plans from five years ago to 10 years ago at Kansas, to see what I’ve done differently,” Williams said. “That’s frustrating, too, because I’m discovering that I haven’t done anything differently. The stuff I’ve had success with isn’t working.”

He's expressing honest frustration there...

“It’s the only time in my life where I’ve been frustrated about my team not playing hard enough,” Williams said. “Even in years when we haven’t been very good, every [opposing] coach has always said, ‘Boy, their teams play so hard.’ No one is saying that now.
“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort. Our personnel may not fit playing as fast as I’d like to play. But I’ve got to be able to do something to get them to play harder.”

What's not true about that? A coach anywhere should not have to coach effort at this level.

On Ellington, he admits the mistake of thinking he was a 4 year player, but says:

“But he ended up going in the first round and got guaranteed money,” Williams said. “So you can’t fault him for that.”

Again, just the straight truth.

“We got Tyler Hansbrough in 2006 when he thought Sean May and Marvin Williams would be back,” Williams said. “Luckily, that didn’t bother him. But those kinds of situations are rare.

“We’re going to take hits sometimes. In this case we didn’t get a couple of players that we wanted because we had Tyler and Danny Green and Wayne Ellington and Ty Lawson. The [recruits] were like, ‘I don’t want to come in and be a backup to those guys for two or three years.’

Again, what's not true about that as well? Players do look at potential playing time before committing, first thing, it's probably the major point in recruiting. He's not making an excuse, he's telling it like it is. I find his comments refreshingly honest.

I see UNC struggles this year as a players issue, much more than a coaches issue. They still may not have won a lot more games due to some short comings, but they can play much harder than they have.

[InSpades]

Bringing up Ellington at all seems pretty silly for Roy. Didn't Ellington put his name in for the draft after his sophomore year? That should have been Roy's 1st inkling that he might not have him for his senior year. Not to mention the ridiculousness that a junior going to the NBA early could cause this much of a fall-off. It's called "having a back-up plan". Duke lost Gerald Henderson to the draft in much the same way UNC lost Ellington. If anything Duke was thinner than UNC was in the backcourt after the loss (more talented, but less bodies). It seems to have worked out okay for Duke. There's a lot wrong at UNC and it's pretty enjoyable to watch from afar :).

[Chicago 1995]

The dark blue shades are showing...It was simply Roy addressing the issues. I think you guys are trying to read much more into it all than is there.

I don't see anything in that article that is not the truth. And Roy clearly accepts the blame for how poorly the team is playing, as he should.

(I don't have to, I blame the players for lack of consistant effort.)

These are the quotes that tell the story...

“I haven’t done a good job with this team,” he said. “As a coach, to say that … it’s hard. It really is.”

“People are always going to criticize and nitpick at things that they don’t understand. The bottom line is that I’ve got to coach who we have. If I make a great decision in recruiting or a bad decision in recruiting, I’ve still got to coach them.”

How much more clearly can a coach be to show he accepts his responsibility as the coach?

“I’ve spent time going over our practice plans from five years ago to 10 years ago at Kansas, to see what I’ve done differently,” Williams said. “That’s frustrating, too, because I’m discovering that I haven’t done anything differently. The stuff I’ve had success with isn’t working.”

He's expressing honest frustration there...

“It’s the only time in my life where I’ve been frustrated about my team not playing hard enough,” Williams said. “Even in years when we haven’t been very good, every [opposing] coach has always said, ‘Boy, their teams play so hard.’ No one is saying that now.
“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort. Our personnel may not fit playing as fast as I’d like to play. But I’ve got to be able to do something to get them to play harder.”

What's not true about that? A coach anywhere should not have to coach effort at this level.

On Ellington, he admits the mistake of thinking he was a 4 year player, but says:

“But he ended up going in the first round and got guaranteed money,” Williams said. “So you can’t fault him for that.”

Again, just the straight truth.

“We got Tyler Hansbrough in 2006 when he thought Sean May and Marvin Williams would be back,” Williams said. “Luckily, that didn’t bother him. But those kinds of situations are rare.

“We’re going to take hits sometimes. In this case we didn’t get a couple of players that we wanted because we had Tyler and Danny Green and Wayne Ellington and Ty Lawson. The [recruits] were like, ‘I don’t want to come in and be a backup to those guys for two or three years.’

Again, what's not true about that as well? Players do look at potential playing time before committing, first thing, it's probably the major point in recruiting. He's not making an excuse, he's telling it like it is. I find his comments refreshingly honest.

I see UNC struggles this year as a players issue, much more than a coaches issue. They still may not have won a lot more games due to some short comings, but they can play much harder than they have.

The effort comments bother me, because it sounds a lot like Roy's trying to (a) remind us how good he's been; (b) say that he's doing all he can do; and (c) tells us it isn't working.

Essentially, Roy's saying that it's the kids faults they aren't playing harder, and he can't do anymore. That might well be true. You watch UNC more than I do, and you seem to think it is true, but even if he's right, I don't think that a college coach should shift blame to his players in public commentary. Roy should be shielding these kids from that criticism, rather than focusing it on them.

I don't think it's just effort, for what it is worth. Roy should have planned better for a team without Ellington, and recruited more balance. The other thing that's happened to Roy is what happens to a lot of very successful coaches -- they lose their flexibility. Roy's been blessed with incredible college talent, especially at the PG position, leading to two titles in the last five years. This roster and these guards don't work for that system. In 1991, Roy would have likely been more flexible. Today, he's entrenched, and the system that's been in place, more or less, since he had Jacque Vaughn, Paul Pierce and Raef Lafrentz is still there, and it doesn't work with these kids the way it did with other groups.

That's why I think UNC should be concerned about more than this year. Sure, Bullock and Barnes will make them better, but they're still thin and weak up front. There's no Ty Lawson or Ray Felton on the horizon. Worse yet, this year's freshman class, with the exception of the lowest ceilinged members, the Wear Twins, are showing very little development or improvement over the course of the season. Why are they going to be much better next year, especially without Deon and Easy Ed?

[BlueintheFace]

“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort. Our personnel may not fit playing as fast as I’d like to play. But I’ve got to be able to do something to get them to play harder.”[/B]

What's not true about that? A coach anywhere should not have to coach effort at this level.

“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort."

- Roy Williams
February 8, 2010 (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AusUBbp6HTFQLd7EjZdxwHHevbYF?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


"With almost all of my teams I've coached mostly execution, but with this team I've had to coach effort."

-Roy Williams
February 16, 2004 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1031199/index.htm)

Wheat, I might have my dark blue-shaded glasses on, but this ^^ makes it seem a bit more like an excuse or re-occurring theme here.

[Mal]

Whether what Roy is saying is true and accurate or not isn't the point most of us are making, though, Wheat. It's whether it's appropriate, and the effect it may have on the undoubtedly already bruised and fragile psyches of his mostly teenaged team.


“I haven’t done a good job with this team,” he said. “As a coach, to say that … it’s hard. It really is.” You say this at the end of the season, not in the midst of it. Is this going to instill confidence in your players to trust you the last month of the season? This comes into a player's ears as "everything he's said so far in practices, meetings, locker room talks, has been wrong." Is he giving some tearful apology speech to his team before practice, promising to turn the page because he hasn't done a good job so far this year? How does that go over?


“People are always going to criticize and nitpick at things that they don’t understand. The bottom line is that I’ve got to coach who we have. And who we have is a bunch of guys I'm disappointed in and who aren't as good as we thought they were.
If I make a great decision in recruiting or a bad decision in recruiting, I’ve still got to coach them.” Translation: I've made some bad decisions in recruiting. These players just aren't that good. I thought they were, but they fooled me and my staff. I'm having to do a lot more coaching and a lot less rolling of the balls onto the floor and saying "Run!" than I would have expected. But, as much as I resent them, and my responsibility for them, it is still a part of my job description to coach them.


“I’ve spent time going over our practice plans from five years ago to 10 years ago at Kansas, to see what I’ve done differently,” Williams said. “That’s frustrating, too, because I’m discovering that I haven’t done anything differently. The stuff I’ve had success with isn’t working.” Translation: These guys suck. If it's worked for more than a decade, and we just won a title last year, then what other explanation is there? I'm not doing anything differently. Even buried in the admission that this old dog needs to learn a few new tricks is a lamenting for the need to do so.


“It’s the only time in my life where I’ve been frustrated about my team not playing hard enough,” Williams said. “Even in years when we haven’t been very good, every [opposing] coach has always said, ‘Boy, their teams play so hard.’ No one is saying that now.
“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort. Our personnel may not fit playing as fast as I’d like to play. But I’ve got to be able to do something to get them to play harder.”

This one I don't have a huge problem with, in a vacuum. He's calling out the entire team, not individuals by name. In the context of the rest of it, though, it does come across as a little self-pitying. Like, "My god, I've won two national titles! I shouldn't have to motivate anymore!" And hinting at or making the same general point repeatedly throughout the season, instead of just once after a particularly gruesome loss, makes it seem even more like self-pity.


“We’re going to take hits sometimes. In this case we didn’t get a couple of players that we wanted because we had Tyler and Danny Green and Wayne Ellington and Ty Lawson. The [recruits] were like, ‘I don’t want to come in and be a backup to those guys for two or three years.’[/B]

True enough. Translation in the ears of his team: I didn't really want these guys; I recruited other kids first, but these were the ones willing to admit they weren't good enough to play until others left.

[Greg_Newton]

Translation: These guys suck. If it's worked for more than a decade, and we just won a title last year, then what other explanation is there? I'm not doing anything differently. Even buried in the admission that this old dog needs to learn a few new tricks is a lamenting for the need to do so.

Yeah, this one especially stood out to me. That's like telling your children they were accidents, and that you wish they'd never been born. If I'm a UNC player, I don't want to read about my coach saying this to the media when I'm already in a rut...

[shoutingncu]

“I’ve never coached effort. I always coached execution. But with this group I’ve had to coach effort."

- Roy Williams
February 8, 2010 (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AusUBbp6HTFQLd7EjZdxwHHevbYF?slug=jn-uncwoes020810&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


"With almost all of my teams I've coached mostly execution, but with this team I've had to coach effort."

-Roy Williams
February 16, 2004 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1031199/index.htm)

Wheat, I might have my dark blue-shaded glasses on, but this ^^ makes it seem a bit more like an excuse or re-occurring theme here.


In fairness, 2004 was his first in Chapel Hill. He inherited a train wreck waiting to happen. Many people on this board (and others) like to point to the 2005 title as being won with Doherty's players, and somehow less impressive of Williams. But it wasn't until Ol' Roy coached effort that the team came together into championship form. Personally, I like the idea of splitting the credit, as it would give Doherty half a banner. If I recall, his 2001 Coach of the Year still burns people, so half a ring shouldn't be easy to take, either.

But back to the repeated quote, I think this year is a very different situation than 2004. The players Roy has this year came in knowing what was expected of them, and are not living up to it. Roy is responsible for that, and may very well be unable to fix it this season, but it certainly won't happen until the players' effort matches their talent.

All that said, I agree with those (which is pretty much all of you) that say this should not be played out in the media, and I especially appreciate the point someone made comparing Coach K's Georgetown comments when he said basically the same things as Roy (in a one game situation, not for the entire season, of course), but said them in a much more appropriate way. I'm no fan of K, but this analysis helped me see things a little differently, at least, pertaining to this sort of thing.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Whether what Roy is saying is true and accurate or not isn't the point most of us are making, though, Wheat. It's whether it's appropriate, and the effect it may have on the undoubtedly already bruised and fragile psyches of his mostly teenaged team.


Of course it's appropriate, the truth is almost always appropriate. If more people told the truth, especially the simple, sometimes unpleasent truth, then you could move past the crap and deal with whatever the issue was.

There should be more accountability taught to our young 'uns...:)

These are not grade school kids. Some of their peers are in the hills of Afganistan where things are really tough. Spare me the fragile psyches stuff. They need to toughen up, they are playing like &^%$#ies.

I'm sure these are all good kids. Some of them may even think they are trying hard.

But, they need to be sat down and forced to watch a tape of that Duke /Wake game, and then challenged to show a tape of any game where they could even come close to matching that toughness and intensity.

If I felt like they were giving max effort, then I could be sympathetic to their youth.

I want to see some passion, win or lose, simple as that. And I have a hard time blaming Roy for a players lack of passion.

[MChambers]

Of course it's appropriate, the truth is almost always appropriate. If more people told the truth, especially the simple, sometimes unpleasent truth, then you could move past the crap and deal with whatever the issue was.

There should be more accountability taught to our young 'uns...:)

These are not grade school kids. Some of their peers are in the hills of Afganistan where things are really tough. Spare me the fragile psyches stuff. They need to toughen up, they are playing like &^%$#ies.

I'm sure these are all good kids. Some of them may even think they are trying hard.

But, they need to be sat down and forced to watch a tape of that Duke /Wake game, and then challenged to show a tape of any game where they could even come close to matching that toughness and intensity.

If I felt like they were giving max effort, then I could be sympathetic to their youth.

I want to see some passion, win or lose, simple as that. And I have a hard time blaming Roy for a players lack of passion.

Wheat, I usually find myself surprisingly in agreement with you, but the coach shouldn't say these things to the media. To the players, at practice, in private? Absolutely. Just not in public.

[wallyman]

Dadgummit. You have to feel for the guy. I suggest a warm bath, hot milk and a few hours of watching CSPAN to help him sleep.

[moonpie23]

rope-a-dope
n

a. a method of tiring out a boxing opponent by pretending to be trapped on the ropes while the opponent expends energy on punches that are blocked
b. (as modifier) rope-a-dope strategy

[DevilHorns]

Dadgummit. You have to feel for the guy. I suggest a warm bath, hot milk and a few hours of watching CSPAN to help him sleep.

Take that back.

[wallyman]

...Facetious

[Newton_14]

The funniest part of that article was the line that had ol roy and unc winning "4 out of the last 5 ACC Titles"..

Really? By my count they have won 2 total with ol roy at the helm. And Duke has won 2 of the last 4 themselves so somebody flunked math or is misinformed on what an "ACC Title" is. They may have finished 1st in the Regular Season winning the Reg Season "Title", but they have not won the ACC as that article implies...:D;)


And recruiting is the reason for the current failures? As recent as this past fall huck was referred to as hands down the best recruiter on earth who gets every kid he chooses when he chooses (exception being Delvon Roe The Liar/Reneger) of course. And that this years and next years classes were better than everyone else. So how is it that a few months later "recent" recruiting misses are a factor? Does one not conflict against the other?

Who are these great recruits he missed on?? Who has more talent on the roster right now, UVA or unc? Va Tech or unc? Clemson or unc?:eek:

[OldSchool]

I'm no UNC fan, to say the least, but it does sort of make me cringe to see Roy blaming the poor season on recruiting failures and Ellington going pro.

But the most shocking part of the article is Roy publicly saying his current players aren't nearly as good as last year's players (a "considerable difference").

He's got Mickey D all-stars up and down the roster. Yes, Hans and Lawson were outstanding players, but that's no excuse to publicly question the quality of your current players. That kind of criticism should be done in private, if appropriate at all. And even in private, I'm not sure what the constructive point would be of, for example, telling Drew II that he's no Ty Lawson or Thompson that he's no Hansbrough.

[BD80]

Let's see, ol' roy admits this season has "literally" driven him to tears:

Shall the Duke band serenade him with "Blue Eyes Cryin' in the Rain?"

How about a few crazies wearing carolina jerseys with tire tracks across the chest?

[moonpie23]

The funniest part of that article was the line that had ol roy and unc winning "4 out of the last 5 ACC Titles"..


oh good lord i HATE this whole thing.....now even espn and other sports announcers in their never ending effort to fluff for unc have taken to including the "acc regular season crown" as part of their discriptions...


Arrrrghhh.....there IS NO ACC REGULAR SEASON CROWN....... !!!!

[DevilHorns]

...Facetious

Sorry didn't read it that way (now that I read, its obvious).

[oldnavy]

Of course it's appropriate, the truth is almost always appropriate. If more people told the truth, especially the simple, sometimes unpleasent truth, then you could move past the crap and deal with whatever the issue was.

There should be more accountability taught to our young 'uns...:)

These are not grade school kids. Some of their peers are in the hills of Afganistan where things are really tough. Spare me the fragile psyches stuff. They need to toughen up, they are playing like &^%$#ies.

I'm sure these are all good kids. Some of them may even think they are trying hard.

But, they need to be sat down and forced to watch a tape of that Duke /Wake game, and then challenged to show a tape of any game where they could even come close to matching that toughness and intensity.

If I felt like they were giving max effort, then I could be sympathetic to their youth.

I want to see some passion, win or lose, simple as that. And I have a hard time blaming Roy for a players lack of passion.

I disagree. The truth is always the truth, but it most certainly is not always appropriate. For example, your wife may have added a few pounds around the hips, that is the TRUTH, but telling her the TRUTH is most certainly NOT appropriate. Trust me on this one!

[BD80]

I disagree. The truth is always the truth, but it most certainly is not always appropriate. For example, your wife may have added a few pounds around the hips, that is the TRUTH, but telling her the TRUTH is most certainly NOT appropriate. Trust me on this one!

Or that perm that your wife got in the early 90s that made her look like a poodle. The truth was NO defense.

I wonder if ol' roy had that level of regret as the words left his lips?

No. He keeps repeating it. Over and over.

[Chicago 1995]

Of course it's appropriate, the truth is almost always appropriate. If more people told the truth, especially the simple, sometimes unpleasent truth, then you could move past the crap and deal with whatever the issue was.

There should be more accountability taught to our young 'uns...:)

These are not grade school kids. Some of their peers are in the hills of Afganistan where things are really tough. Spare me the fragile psyches stuff. They need to toughen up, they are playing like &^%$#ies.

I'm sure these are all good kids. Some of them may even think they are trying hard.

But, they need to be sat down and forced to watch a tape of that Duke /Wake game, and then challenged to show a tape of any game where they could even come close to matching that toughness and intensity.

If I felt like they were giving max effort, then I could be sympathetic to their youth.

I want to see some passion, win or lose, simple as that. And I have a hard time blaming Roy for a players lack of passion.

Should these kids be lit up in a practice or a meeting? Absolutely.

Should they be lit up in repeated comments to the press? Never.

The former is good coaching. The latter is a coach trying to absolve himself of his team's failures, and shift the blame to his team. It's distasteful.

[RepoMan]

And I have a hard time blaming Roy for a players lack of passion.

Well, expect to the extent that he should be held accountable for recruiting the players who are there. Heart, passion, intensity, commitment . . . these things are not learned in college. By that time, you either have it, or you don't. Of course, identifying it in potential recruits is no easy task.

[alteran]

Arrrrghhh.....there IS NO ACC REGULAR SEASON CROWN....... !!!!

FWIW, I was under the impression that there was actually an official "Regular Season Champion." I thought endless lobbying by The Nose eventually got the ACC to acknowledge the winner of the regular season officially as "Regular Season Champions."

Not as THE ACC Champions, mind you, but some sort of official, written-in-the-rules-somewhere acknowledgment. I checked it out on wikipedia and wikipedia explicitly denies this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlantic_Coast_Conference_men%27s_basketba ll_regular_season_champions)-- but I'm pretty sure there's SOME sort of official acknowledgment.

Does anybody know?

If I remember correctly, that means there's an element of truth to these claims, depending on how finely we want to parse exactly what a "crown" or "title" is. Obviously, the claim is sloppy at best and deceitful at worst.

Of course, by that logic there are a number of five year periods where Duke has 8 titles-- funny, I don't remember anyone phrasing it that way to Duke's benefit.

[davekay1971]

FWIW, I was under the impression that there was actually an official "Regular Season Champion." I thought endless lobbying by The Nose eventually got the ACC to acknowledge the winner of the regular season officially as "Regular Season Champions."

Not as THE ACC Champions, mind you, but some sort of official, written-in-the-rules-somewhere acknowledgment.


This is the same school that sadly tries to confuse a Helms Award with a real national championship. The fact that the sports media calls the ACC team with the best regular season record the ACC champion illustrates their sloppiness and laziness, not necessarily (IMHO) a bias.

[jjasper0729]

FWIW, I was under the impression that there was actually an official "Regular Season Champion." I thought endless lobbying by The Nose eventually got the ACC to acknowledge the winner of the regular season officially as "Regular Season Champions."

Not as THE ACC Champions, mind you, but some sort of official, written-in-the-rules-somewhere acknowledgment.

This has been located:



Just to be clear, what happened is that the ACC Tournament Champion has, since the beginning if the conference in 1953-54, been THE ACC champion. For 36 years, that was the only championship recognized by the ACC -- although that didn't stop Dean from hanging banners claiming "regular season" titles for what were really first-place regular season finishes.

In 1990, the ACC voted to recognize the "ACC regular season championship" -- essentially to allow Clemson, an original ACC member that had never won anything, to celebrate their first-place finish that year. So from that point on, there are two championships -- regular season and tournament.

HOWEVER -- and it's a big however -- the conference made it clear that the tournament champion is still THE official ACC champion. They did specifically authorize banners to celebrate the regular season title AS LONG AS THEY WERE CLEARLY MARKED AS "REGULAR SEASON" TITLES.

So retroactively, UNC's first-place banners were authorized, although the idea of hanging a huge "ACC champions" banner with a small "regular season" notation underneath is certainly pushing things.

Hope it helps

[alteran]

This has been located:



Hope it helps

Yes, it does. Big thanks.

One of us needs to tell wikipedia!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I disagree. The truth is always the truth, but it most certainly is not always appropriate. For example, your wife may have added a few pounds around the hips, that is the TRUTH, but telling her the TRUTH is most certainly NOT appropriate. Trust me on this one!

That's why I added the "almost always" part...:)

[oldnavy]

That's why I added the "almost always" part...:)

So how long have you been married? ;)
All kidding aside, I do think that there is a time and a place for everything. Roy is perfectly entitled to call his players out for their lack of hustle or whatever, I just think that continually doing it in a public forum becomes less constructive and more destructive, and it does give the appearance of deflecting the blame, no matter how many times he says HE has to work harder.

If I were a tarheel fan (shudder) I would grow a little tired of hearing that. It's like, OK WE GET IT, YOU STINK, NOW FIX IT! But as a Blue Devil fan, it gets more enjoyable everytime I hear it! I just hope he is apologizing again and telling us how bad he is after Wednesday's game...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

So how long have you been married? ;)
All kidding aside, I do think that there is a time and a place for everything. Roy is perfectly entitled to call his players out for their lack of hustle or whatever, I just think that continually doing it in a public forum becomes less constructive and more destructive, and it does give the appearance of deflecting the blame, no matter how many times he says HE has to work harder.

If I were a tarheel fan (shudder) I would grow a little tired of hearing that. It's like, OK WE GET IT, YOU STINK, NOW FIX IT! But as a Blue Devil fan, it gets more enjoyable everytime I hear it! I just hope he is apologizing again and telling us how bad he is after Wednesday's game...

16 years and counting, sir, and as you guys can probably imagine, she is a saint...:)

I think many of you are way over thinking his every comment, just looking for some way to justifiy a preconceived notion that he is somehow refusing to accept any blame, and laying the blame unfairly on young, fragile players. No matter what he says, his words can be twisted to meet that agenda.

Simple fix. The players leave it all on the floor every game, win or lose. And we are not talking about this. Then we can discuss their skill, or lack of skill, and judge Roy's coaching, or lack of coaching.

They have not done that yet.

Who's to blame, should he blame, and how to blame?...It's all just fan noise to me until they commit to leaving a lung on the floor.

A playa' plays...as they say on the street.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Looks like Bilas agrees with me (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/heels-swoon-puzzles-espns-bilas)regarding UNC's "issues".

"....They’re not fighting, more importantly. They’re playing, but they’re not fighting.”

"...There’s nothing you can point to - that isn’t thumping inside their chests – for an answer."

[Dev11]

This is the same school that sadly tries to confuse a Helms Award with a real national championship. The fact that the sports media calls the ACC team with the best regular season record the ACC champion illustrates their sloppiness and laziness, not necessarily (IMHO) a bias.

All a media member has to do is look up into Cameron's rafters to see that we display regular season titles with the same grandeur as ACC tournament titles - a banner denoting "ACC Champions" with a line underneath reading "Regular Season" and/or "Tournament. If I recall correctly, when both appear, the regular season one is listed above, implying that we value these ACC "championships," even more. Coach K told my class during our freshman year that we only storm the court for championships, and of course the only championship that could be won at home is that regular season title, so he certainly values it.

Let them mention Carolina's recent success as more fodder for the discussion. I enjoy being reminded about how the formerly mighty have fallen :)

As for recruiting and early departures, I don't think Roy has NEARLY as much as K might in blaming lack of success on recruiting failures. How many times on this board do we fantasize about the woulda-coulda-shoulda 2010 Duke team that would have had Boynton, Wall, Patterson, Monroe, etc?

[gumbomoop]

Looks like Bilas agrees with me (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/heels-swoon-puzzles-espns-bilas)regarding UNC's "issues".

"....They’re not fighting, more importantly. They’re playing, but they’re not fighting.”

"...There’s nothing you can point to - that isn’t thumping inside their chests – for an answer."

Actually, I've seen virtually no disagreement with your point about how little passion/fight there's been in this year's Heels. Almost unanimously, Duke posters are puzzled, but delighted to agree with you and Bilas. And a fair number of posters [mostly on UNC pre-game thread] are worried only that the Heels will finally and dangerously wake up this eve.

So, your reference to Bilas's comments are accurate...... but misleading. [This is, in fact, a common, if naughty, ploy in argumentation.] For the Bilas comments you reference above do not deal with the dominant issue under discussion here: Roy's response to his players' failings, which, repeatedly, is "woe is me." Made much worse, btw, by his disingenuous - if ironically and unwittingly accurate - insistence that "I just have to do a better job" [yet another common ploy - bleccchhhh].

You insist in earlier post that posters are "overthinking" Roy's every comment, but maybe you're underthinking, particularly when Roy has provided many, many comments of the same self-pitying type.

I myself still think the Heels will make the NCAAT, but as that almost certainly necessitates a win tonight, I need to suppress any such thought. So I'll hope to hear more woe from Roy late this eve, and expect, should that delightful prospect eventuate, to hear more underthinking from you on his self-pity.

To end on a more positive note: your analyses of Heel players always make sense, including your preseason warnings that Duke posters were underestimating the abilities of LD2, Zeller, and yes, even the Wears.

[CDu]

I myself still think the Heels will make the NCAAT, but as that almost certainly necessitates a win tonight, I need to suppress any such thought. So I'll hope to hear more woe from Roy late this eve, and expect, should that delightful prospect eventuate, to hear more underthinking from you on his self-pity.

The game tonight is a "must-win" for the Heels only in the sense of an at-large bid. They could obviously lose this one and still win the ACC tournament. But if they lose tonight to fall to 2-7, there's really no way they're going 6-1 down the stretch.

To be honest, I'm not even sure that a win tonight would be enough to get them in the at-large discussion. They'd still need to go 5-2 down the stretch, meaning they'd have to win all of their remaining home games and at least two of the following: @Duke, @Maryland, @Wake, and @GT.

[oldnavy]

My reason for starting this thread was to discuss what I believe to be Roy's overreaction to what was a really bad season and is fast becoming a dismal season.
Roy acts as if he is about to disembowel himself after each loss. I think that if he truly feels the way he projects himself to feel, then he has major issues. Sure he is driven and this is his profession, but come on! He has won 2 NC in 5 years, is a HOF coach and has a very good recruiting class coming in next year to balance with what he has returning. To hear him, you would think that life is all but over. What about a little perspective Roy?
He has not impressed me with how he has handled losing. I would find it very hard to follow this man into battle.

[gumbomoop]

The game tonight is a "must-win" for the Heels only in the sense of an at-large bid. They could obviously lose this one and still win the ACC tournament. But if they lose tonight to fall to 2-7, there's really no way they're going 6-1 down the stretch.

To be honest, I'm not even sure that a win tonight would be enough to get them in the at-large discussion. They'd still need to go 5-2 down the stretch, meaning they'd have to win all of their remaining home games and at least two of the following: @Duke, @Maryland, @Wake, and @GT.

Slight correction: UNC has already played @ Md. Inferring from your #s above, let's say at 8-8 [and thus 19-12] UNC is bubble. IMO, if Heels win tonight [and I hope that's a very big if], that puts them at 3-6, with 3 pretty likely home wins [momentum from big win, waking up, relatively weak remaining home schedule, etc], to get them to 6-6. IMO, they'd then be likely to spit 4 remaining @ games [GT, BC, WF, Duke]. That is, give them BC and an upset of either GT or WF. Thus, 8-8, and probably in bubble conversation.

But your general point is correct: they got a whole lot of work to do even to get into bubble-land.

[OldSchool]

My reason for starting this thread was to discuss what I believe to be Roy's overreaction to what was a really bad season and is fast becoming a dismal season.
Roy acts as if he is about to disembowel himself after each loss. I think that if he truly feels the way he projects himself to feel, then he has major issues. Sure he is driven and this is his profession, but come on! He has won 2 NC in 5 years, is a HOF coach and has a very good recruiting class coming in next year to balance with what he has returning. To hear him, you would think that life is all but over. What about a little perspective Roy?
He has not impressed me with how he has handled losing. I would find it very hard to follow this man into battle.

I have been frankly shocked by Roy's, for lack of a better word, immaturity.

I know basketball coaches in general are not necessarily the most mature personalities one encounters, but it seems like Roy has been throwing a verbal tantrum to anyone within earshot.

The public criticism of his players is classless. The public swipe at how tiresome it is for him to have to emotionally coddle Ginyard ("just play, dadgummit") was very disappointing to see in someone of his stature.

[mike88]

Roy's quote from SI:

"Our massage therapist told me, 'You know, coach, what happened in Haiti is a catastrophe. What you're having is a disappointment,"' said Williams. "I told her hat depends on what chair you're sitting in. It does feel like a catastrophe to me, because it is my life."

[oldnavy]

I have been frankly shocked by Roy's, for lack of a better word, immaturity.

I know basketball coaches in general are not necessarily the most mature personalities one encounters, but it seems like Roy has been throwing a verbal tantrum to anyone within earshot.

The public criticism of his players is classless. The public swipe at how tiresome it is for him to have to emotionally coddle Ginyard ("just play, dadgummit") was very disappointing to see in someone of his stature.
Don't you find it ironic that Roy tossed the Presbyterian guy for shouting "don't miss it Deon" yet he takes every opportunity to call out players for poor execution in games and lack of effort. This is the man that says "...he doesn't think anyone should say negative things about his players..."

Man done gone lost his mind!

[Matches]

Roy's quote from SI:

"Our massage therapist told me, 'You know, coach, what happened in Haiti is a catastrophe. What you're having is a disappointment,"' said Williams. "I told her hat depends on what chair you're sitting in. It does feel like a catastrophe to me, because it is my life."

Wow. Just... wow. :eek:

[OldSchool]

The game tonight is a "must-win" for the Heels only in the sense of an at-large bid. They could obviously lose this one and still win the ACC tournament. But if they lose tonight to fall to 2-7, there's really no way they're going 6-1 down the stretch.

To be honest, I'm not even sure that a win tonight would be enough to get them in the at-large discussion. They'd still need to go 5-2 down the stretch, meaning they'd have to win all of their remaining home games and at least two of the following: @Duke, @Maryland, @Wake, and @GT.

With the four-day aspect of the modern ACC tournament, UNC could go 7-9 in the ACC and still get an at-large bid if they win 3 games, and maybe even 2 games, in the ACC tournament, depending on whom they beat, if they finish up the ACC season strong and how the other bubble teams stand.

[OldSchool]

Don't you find it ironic that Roy tossed the Presbyterian guy for shouting "don't miss it Deon" yet he takes every opportunity to call out players for poor execution in games and lack of effort. This is the man that says "...he doesn't think anyone should say negative things about his players..."

Another sweet irony is going to be how important the ACC tournament will be to Roy this year.

Coach K and Duke take it very seriously every year, and view winning the ACC Tournament as an important and serious achievement.

But Ol' Roy has been dismissive of the ACC Tournament since he became head coach at UNC. He'll be singing a different tune this year!

[BD80]

If ol' roy has never had to coach effort before, that means that this team is unique in that it requires roy to coach effort.

He has been a college head coach for 22 years, an assistant at unc for 10 years and a high school coach for 5 years, and he has NEVER had to coach effort before. The current players are deficient compared to 37 years of prior players.

Naw. He didn't throw this year's team under the bus.

[superdave]

Tonight was the first time I'd watched unc tip to finish. They suck. They played hard tonight, but cant knock down jumpers, cant feed the bigs and are weak defensively.

But how many McD's All-Americans do they have? Does anyone know? I'd bet 7-8. Coack K would go 28-8 with this roster.

[alteran]

Tonight was the first time I'd watched unc tip to finish. They suck. They played hard tonight, but cant knock down jumpers, cant feed the bigs and are weak defensively.

But how many McD's All-Americans do they have? Does anyone know? I'd bet 7-8. Coack K would go 28-8 with this roster.

Yeah, I've seen the heels play several times this year, and this was actually significantly better than their mean.

Duke, on the other hand, looked way under their mean to me (aside from a few bright spots). It happens. I certainly thought our guys were playing hard, they just could not put the ball in the hoop, 3-point range being the ironic exception.

Against UNC, lackluster performance traditionally translates into us getting pounded, particularly in the nose dome. The fact that lackluster play by us gave us a draw with UNC is all kinds of wonderful.

And what a clutch performance by Scheyer down the stretch.

[hoseman]

Don't you find it ironic that Roy tossed the Presbyterian guy for shouting "don't miss it Deon" yet he takes every opportunity to call out players for poor execution in games and lack of effort. This is the man that says "...he doesn't think anyone should say negative things about his players..."

Man done gone lost his mind!

I like this post as I'm a PC guy. We were all pulling for Duke last night...job well done...thanks! Now whoop um again at your house and we owe you one.

Ever since Roy threw our guy out, bad karma has bleed into this light blue team...they deserve what they are getting.

[mcdukie]

Roy's Haiti comment was a little too much in my opinion. The best fact on Ol' Roy is he has never been here before. He is spoiled! He didn't build a program at Kansas or UNC like K did at Duke. Now that hard times have hit, he doesn't know how to deal with his players. Any team that relies on Ginyard and Drew wouldn't go 28-8, I don't care who the coach is. In the beginning, like against Mich. St. Ginyard's 3's were falling. I knew when he went to UNC he would never be an offensive force, he really wasn't that dominant on offense in high school. I need to let Ol' Roy know this as well, Marshall is coming in next year and I don't know if he is the answer at the point. People in the DC area think he is very overrated. If he isn't the answer, what will Roy do then?