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View Full Version : Practice 54: Are UNC's guards improving, or do they still suck?



Duvall
01-29-2010, 03:21 PM
Can we get this Drew crapola out of this thread? It's worse than concrete's junk. This is a celebratory fun Scheyer thread. Let's debate how sucky the UNC guards are (slightly sucky v. really sucky v. maybe not quite as sucky next year) elsewhere

Let's discuss it here.

NSDukeFan
01-29-2010, 03:23 PM
Maybe they need a better little man coach.

buckshot
01-29-2010, 03:27 PM
Maybe they need a better little man coach.

I hear Joe Forte is available:D

mgtr
01-29-2010, 03:45 PM
I didn't know they had any guards. Why don't they ever get to play?

G man
01-29-2010, 03:48 PM
On a serious note I think Strickland is getting better and has the ability to be a good ball player. That being said I think Drew sucks! Nothing makes me happier than watching him turn the ball over and over again. It is good for UNC that they are getting some help at the point next year.

NYDukie
01-29-2010, 03:57 PM
Personally, I'd rather both teams beat top 5-10. When they are both there the matchups are top notch and hyped up. On top of that, I get even more into the games because the stakes are that much higher. Plus, this UK, KU, and Texas talk would take a back seat. Hey, I'm a Yankee fan and am all into the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry so the Duke-UNC is everything I like.

Back to thread, I actually think Drew II is a bit underrated/underappreciated. I think he is starting to solidify his role and if he happened to play for Duke, I think we would be talking about what a solid role he is playing in support of Nolan and Jon. Just my 2 cents that will probably get tossed out like a cheap trick since I gave a lil praise to a Tar Heel....take it easy on me guys...LOL

dukeENG2003
01-29-2010, 04:00 PM
Lets put it this way. . .

A lot of people (wrong or right) said Paulus wasn't a very good PG and ripped him MERCILESSLY. I'd MUCH rather have him than LD2 (and I'm pretty sure Roy would agree). Give UNC Paulus as their PG, and they are a top 10-15 team easy.

slower
01-29-2010, 04:08 PM
Maybe they need a better little man coach.

Roy is a VERY little man! :D

buckshot
01-29-2010, 04:08 PM
Scout had him as the number 4 PG and said...

"The son of the former NBA guard, Drew is that rare commodity – a young point guard with talent and an understanding for the position. Makes great decisions and pinpoint passes. He has an accurate outside shot and can get his shot. Should be a big time high-major prospect."


I think he will get better as he plays more, but I think that Roy mis-evaluated this kids talent. Lucky for UNC that Lawson stayed last year.

jipops
01-29-2010, 04:20 PM
McDonald and Strickland are both very promising young guards for UNC. Strickland had a good outing vs. State and looks like a kid who could develop into a big offensive factor in the future. McDonald's strength appears to lie in his defense which UNC is ofcourse going need down the road. These guys are merely experiencing the growing pains of being freshmen guards in the ACC. This is very similar to what Andre has been experiencing as well. If you recall he has not exactly been lighting it up lately either, though I'm quite confident that will change.

CDu
01-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Lets put it this way. . .

A lot of people (wrong or right) said Paulus wasn't a very good PG and ripped him MERCILESSLY. I'd MUCH rather have him than LD2 (and I'm pretty sure Roy would agree). Give UNC Paulus as their PG, and they are a top 10-15 team easy.

For what UNC is trying to do, I'd argue that Paulus would be a much worse fit actually. He struggled against pressure defense to the point that Coach K redesigned the offense so he wouldn't have the pressure of being a PG and playmaker. Essentially, he spent his last two years as a SG in an offense that didn't require a PG. UNC's offense is so dependent upon a playmaker at PG to beat pressure, push the tempo and attack off the dribble. These were some distinct weaknesses of Paulus's game at Duke.

I feel that Drew has gotten a raw deal from the media and from UNC fans. The guys is not Ty Lawson, but he's not terrible either. He's averaging 9 ppg, 6 apg, a 2:1 a:to ratio, 43.5% 3pt, and 1.39 pps. Those are great numbers. He's had at least 5 assists in all but one game this year and has never had more turnovers than assists in a game. The problem is that UNC needs him to average those assist numbers AND be a consistent double-digit scorer, and that's not his game (at least not yet). The other problem is that they don't have a fallback if he has an off-night. In the six losses, he's struggled to score, but the a:to ratio has been 38:28. Those aren't atrocious numbers, and if there was someone to help him out they might have won a few of those games.

As for the actual question, I'd say the following:
Drew: underrated, but needs to show more consistency in putting up good scoring totals
Strickland: probably more of a SG, and is even less consistent than Drew. The potential is there. he's had several great games so far, but then he follows it up with some nonexistent performances. he's probably the key to their season, because if he steps up alongside Drew then they are a dangerous team.
McDonald: the jury is still out on him, because he just hasn't been able to earn enough minutes to show much. He's been a bit more consistent as a scorer when he's gotten at least 10 mpg though.

If Strickland can improve to be a starting-level guard, then UNC becomes very interesting. Then they aren't forced to play Graves and Ginyard together for most of the game. That would be big because neither is good in anything but a catch-and-shoot situation, so having both on the floor stagnates their offense. It also would take pressure off of Drew, so that when he's having an off-night the team still has a presence at PG.

gumbomoop
01-29-2010, 04:38 PM
Among the many ?s coming into this ACC season, both Duke and UNC had major ?s re PG. I assumed that JS and NS would share PG a bit more than they have. They do switch off, but clearly JS is the main PG, has performed superbly, allowing NS to attack.

So, Duke's PG ? has been answered quite nicely, so it's no longer plausibly a problem area, not even close.

For the Heels, they could hardly be said to have "answered" their own big ?s re PG; it's still there. But I wouldn't quite say LDII sucks, for his A/TO is 2/1, hardly sucky. Moreover, he's shooting 47.2%, and 43.5% from 3[ this latter a surprise to me], so those aren't sucky stats either. He does make some really dumb passes, each of which is thrilling to us Duke folks, so he's more than a little wild still. It's a good question whether Roy has failed to take LDII's actual skill level into account in modifying - or not - the Heel's offense so far this season.

I've no clue as to how LDII and the Heel guards generally will perform as the tough ACC schedule continues. So I'll just guess about the Heels' season, based on the fact that UNC has lots of talent up front, that Zeller will come back and help, that Ginyard will wake up [??], that the guards will be inconsistent but not invariably sucky. I'm guessing they end at 10-6 and even at 9-7 would probably deserve an NCAA bid.

Wander
01-29-2010, 04:45 PM
As for the actual question, I'd say the following:
Drew: underrated, but needs to show more consistency in putting up good scoring totals
Strickland: probably more of a SG, and is even less consistent than Drew. The potential is there. he's had several great games so far, but then he follows it up with some nonexistent performances. he's probably the key to their season, because if he steps up alongside Drew then they are a dangerous team.
McDonald: the jury is still out on him, because he just hasn't been able to earn enough minutes to show much. He's been a bit more consistent as a scorer when he's gotten at least 10 mpg though.

Good descriptions, I agree. Allow me to complete your list.

Ginyard: sucks
Graves: sucks, sometimes hits a 3

:D

CDu
01-29-2010, 04:51 PM
I've no clue as to how LDII and the Heel guards generally will perform as the tough ACC schedule continues. So I'll just guess about the Heels' season, based on the fact that UNC has lots of talent up front, that Zeller will come back and help, that Ginyard will wake up [??], that the guards will be inconsistent but not invariably sucky. I'm guessing they end at 10-6 and even at 9-7 would probably deserve an NCAA bid.

If anything, I think the inability of Ginyard to become the best perimeter player is the real issue for UNC. Drew is giving them pretty good (though inconsistent) production. But I think UNC fans had hoped that Ginyard would have a David Noel-like senior season. Well, that hasn't happened. And to be fair to Ginyard, I'm not sure it was ever really fair to have expected it to happen.

Singler will play the same position in the pros that Deng and Battier played. Both of those guys played the 4 in college. A lot of NBA 3s are guys who were perimeter-oriented college 4s.

The guy is having a slightly better year than he did as a junior. But it may be that he's just not suited to be a double-digit scorer and team leader. Maybe all he has in him is to be a solid defensive player and 6th man type of player. If that's the case, then the pressure is on Strickland to step up and fill that second guard role.

oldnavy
01-29-2010, 05:01 PM
YES.

airowe
01-29-2010, 05:39 PM
YES.

The former or the latter? I say the latter...

wilko
01-29-2010, 05:45 PM
I dont care if they are All-Americans, NPOY or whatever..
They are all Hoovermatics as long as they wear that shade of Blue

roywhite
01-29-2010, 09:52 PM
Good descriptions, I agree. Allow me to complete your list.

Ginyard: sucks
Graves: sucks, sometimes hits a 3

:D

Who's behind these guys?
Watts.
What?
No, Watts...Justin Watts
Where is he from?
Wear? which one?
Yeah, Watts....where is he from?
Well, there's Wear, D. and Wear, T.; does that help?
I thought we were talking about their guards; where are their guards from?
Well, Wear is from California, and so is the other one. But neither one is a guard.
Who's in charge over there?
Dadgummit...who knows?

Newton_14
01-29-2010, 10:35 PM
Given wheat's implications in the thread that spawned this thread there is one thing that needs to be put to rest from the get go. That being Larry Drew is not even close to being comparable to Jon Scheyer.

Jon at the mid point of the season is a 1st team All-ACC and 1st team All-American, as well as the leading candidate of ACC POY. Even with his recent shooting slump (which he hopefully came out of against FSU) he is still very much an All-American player.

On the other hand, Larry Drew is an average PG who would not so much as sniff an honorable mention vote for AA. It's comical to compare him to Jon.

Drew has played well at times this year, and has shown a good stroke from 3. Bad decisions and turnovers are his biggest weaknesses and to borrow from Strickland's logic, the unc "system" does not suit Drew's skill set very well and is a detriment to his game. He likely would be better served in an offense that was not built on breakneck speed 100% of the time.

As for Strickland and Mcdonald, they are talented guys that can be good players if they develop. Mcdonald is a pretty good defender and Strickland has shown an ability to drive and finish well. But with Marshall and Bullock coming in next year it will be a challenge for Strick, MiC, and Drew to see significant PT. Somebody has to sit...

ACCBBallFan
01-29-2010, 10:53 PM
If anything, I think the inability of Ginyard to become the best perimeter player is the real issue for UNC. Drew is giving them pretty good (though inconsistent) production. But I think UNC fans had hoped that Ginyard would have a David Noel-like senior season. Well, that hasn't happened. And to be fair to Ginyard, I'm not sure it was ever really fair to have expected it to happen.

Singler will play the same position in the pros that Deng and Battier played. Both of those guys played the 4 in college. A lot of NBA 3s are guys who were perimeter-oriented college 4s.

The guy is having a slightly better year than he did as a junior. But it may be that he's just not suited to be a double-digit scorer and team leader. Maybe all he has in him is to be a solid defensive player and 6th man type of player. If that's the case, then the pressure is on Strickland to step up and fill that second guard role.

I am thinking Marcus may be more injured than UNC is fessing up to, or that he has not recovered mentally. He is in the lineup mostly for senior experience and defense and neither have been all that good this year.

IMO, William Graves has over performed my expectations. Larry Drew II and Dexter Strickland are going trough the expected maturnity process. Leslie MacDonld shows signs of being a shooter after starting off horrifically probably due to nerves.

Their turnovers were a lot fewer this past game and we will see if that continues or reverts.

jws
01-29-2010, 10:55 PM
On a serious note I think Strickland is getting better and has the ability to be a good ball player. That being said I think Drew sucks! Nothing makes me happier than watching him turn the ball over and over again. It is good for UNC that they are getting some help at the point next year.

The actual statistics beg to differ.

Here's how Drew compares to one of the best players in the ACC, Jon Scheyer:

In ACC play, Drew is tied with Vasquez for most assists/game with 7, compared to 4.6 for Scheyer. Drew has 35 assists and 17 to's in 5 games, while Scheyer has 32 assists and 17 to's in 7 games. Drew's assist/turnover rate is 2.1 to 1, while Scheyer's is 1.9 to 1.

Overall, Drew is shooting .472 from the field, .435 from 3 and .740 from the FT line, while Scheyer is shooting .438 from the field, .391 from 3 and .899 from the FT line.

Drew does indeed make some boneheaded mistakes, and gets somewhat flustered from time to time, as most PGs do during their first year running the show(Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson certainly did), but by any rational assessment, he most certainly does not suck, and while Dexter Strickland has huge potential, Drew is significantly and consistently better than Strickland on both ends of the floor right now.

jws
01-29-2010, 11:05 PM
Good descriptions, I agree. Allow me to complete your list.

Ginyard: sucks
Graves: sucks, sometimes hits a 3

:D

Ginyard is indeed struggling. I suspect physical problems, because he's nowhere near the contributor he used to be, especially defensively.

In ACC play, Graves is North Carolina's leading scorer and 16th overall (13.6 ppg), 13th overall in rebounding (6.8), 10th overall in FT percentage (.824), 5th overall in 3 pt % (.400), and is tied with Vasquez for the overall lead in 3 pointers made/game with 2.8.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-30-2010, 02:11 PM
Given wheat's implications in the thread that spawned this thread there is one thing that needs to be put to rest from the get go. That being Larry Drew is not even close to being comparable to Jon Scheyer.

Jon at the mid point of the season is a 1st team All-ACC and 1st team All-American, as well as the leading candidate of ACC POY. Even with his recent shooting slump (which he hopefully came out of against FSU) he is still very much an All-American player.

On the other hand, Larry Drew is an average PG who would not so much as sniff an honorable mention vote for AA. It's comical to compare him to Jon.

Drew has played well at times this year, and has shown a good stroke from 3. Bad decisions and turnovers are his biggest weaknesses and to borrow from Strickland's logic, the unc "system" does not suit Drew's skill set very well and is a detriment to his game. He likely would be better served in an offense that was not built on breakneck speed 100% of the time.

As for Strickland and Mcdonald, they are talented guys that can be good players if they develop. Mcdonald is a pretty good defender and Strickland has shown an ability to drive and finish well. But with Marshall and Bullock coming in next year it will be a challenge for Strick, MiC, and Drew to see significant PT. Somebody has to sit...

First off, to be clear, the only implication I made in the other thread was that stats don't always tell the quality of the player. I used some Drew stats to point that out in Scheyer's case. Drew had some better stats than Scheyer, but I think we all agree Scheyer is a better all around point guard at this point.

I'll say it again. Scheyer is an outstanding PG/G. But to say that Drew cannot be compared to Scheyer is not giving Drew respect, which is a mistake.

Larry Drew is a good PG that is learning. He's getting better every game, and he has the physical tools to be very good. He has above average court vision.

While Drew has made some obvious unforced passing TO's, he's also made some great passes this season. It's not often he gets his pocket picked, he can handle it with the dribble. His defense is underated, he is long and has quick hands. His shooting has improved and he is a threat to make the long ball. He must be guarded.

The consistant lack of a 2 and 3 (Ginyard and Graves) that can take defenders off the dribble has hurt Drew's ability to spread the floor offensively and get a better look at passing lanes. Scheyer has that help, and he takes advantage of it.

I think we will see Drew start attacking the rim more soon. Especially against Duke. He has a quickness advantage over Scheyer and will push it. He can get to the rim and he can finish, but he needs to be more assertive.

Anybody who thinks Drew "sucks" is not paying attention.

sandinmyshoes
01-30-2010, 02:25 PM
I've become more and more superstitious about these kinds of threads and comments. I remember last year that DBR made a comment about Duke having obviously gotten the better player from the same team, between Gerald and Ellington. Then, like magic, Ellington suddenly starts hitting killer shots to become a major factor in leading UNC to a championship and is getting minutes in the NBA while Gerald is not. Sheesh. It's like jinx.

I think Drew is a fine point guard. UNC's back court problems seem to stem from inconsistency that doesn't show up in general stats. I also think their frontcourt has been overrated, it's a rather thin bunch that can be bullied. (Having said all that, the jinx will probably kick in and send them on a furious run of scoring and defending like mad men.)

Newton_14
01-30-2010, 08:59 PM
First off, to be clear, the only implication I made in the other thread was that stats don't always tell the quality of the player. I used some Drew stats to point that out in Scheyer's case. Drew had some better stats than Scheyer, but I think we all agree Scheyer is a better all around point guard at this point.

I'll say it again. Scheyer is an outstanding PG/G. But to say that Drew cannot be compared to Scheyer is not giving Drew respect, which is a mistake.

Larry Drew is a good PG that is learning. He's getting better every game, and he has the physical tools to be very good. He has above average court vision.

While Drew has made some obvious unforced passing TO's, he's also made some great passes this season. It's not often he gets his pocket picked, he can handle it with the dribble. His defense is underated, he is long and has quick hands. His shooting has improved and he is a threat to make the long ball. He must be guarded.

The consistant lack of a 2 and 3 (Ginyard and Graves) that can take defenders off the dribble has hurt Drew's ability to spread the floor offensively and get a better look at passing lanes. Scheyer has that help, and he takes advantage of it.

I think we will see Drew start attacking the rim more soon. Especially against Duke. He has a quickness advantage over Scheyer and will push it. He can get to the rim and he can finish, but he needs to be more assertive.

Anybody who thinks Drew "sucks" is not paying attention.

I did not say that Drew sucks. I said he is average. He is not a bad player. He shoots the 3 well and passes well in half court sets when they are not trying to play 100 miles an hour. But as of right now he is not an elite guard. Jon is even if he is not as flashy as people think an elite guard should be.

I also agree with you that he is hurt by having Graves/Ginyard as his running mates on the wing. Graves is a career backup being forced into a starting role that he can't handle, and Ginyard is a defensive minded player being forced into a scoring role, and it's becoming evident that the injuries have had an impact on him. He was better as a Jr than he is now.

You feel I disrespected Drew, while I feel that comparing Drew to Jon is disrespectful to Jon. I just think there are many better candidates at guard to compare Drew against vs comparing him to Jon. 2 totally different players..

Wheat/"/"/"
01-30-2010, 10:46 PM
I did not say that Drew sucks...
You feel I disrespected Drew, while I feel that comparing Drew to Jon is disrespectful to Jon. I just think there are many better candidates at guard to compare Drew against vs comparing him to Jon. 2 totally different players..

The "anybody who thinks Drew sucks..." comment was for the other posters.

Comparing the play of the starting PG at UNC, to the starting PG at Duke, is not uncommon. And should not be viewed, and was not meant to be, in any way... disrespectful to the Duke PG. Scheyer has earned my respect.

The attitude that Drew is not even worthy to be considered in the same conversation with Scheyer IS disrespectful of Drew's play this season.

The good news is we will see for ourselves, on the floor, if Drew is worthy to grace the court with a Duke PG in just a few games.

BTW, the idea that Drew can't push the ball and make good decisions is incorrect. He can play at speed and is getting better at it every game.

DukeBlood
01-31-2010, 01:07 AM
Wheat, Do you see DrewII as the PG of the future for the Heels? I mean is he the guy who will lead UNC to a title? I personally feel that he isn't. As of right now he is probably a slightly above average PG, who will develope into a solid above average PG. Not on the same level as some of the past elite PG's.

Maybe I am missing something when I have watched UNC but he just doesn't strike me as that guy. Is he quick? Yeah, He is quick but not enough where he will blow by Jon(or Nolan). Wouldn't be surprised to see Nolan guarding him, in which case would be a advantage for Duke.

Would like to hear your full thoughts on Mr. DrewII

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 11:03 AM
Wheat, Do you see DrewII as the PG of the future for the Heels? I mean is he the guy who will lead UNC to a title? I personally feel that he isn't. As of right now he is probably a slightly above average PG, who will develope into a solid above average PG. Not on the same level as some of the past elite PG's.

Maybe I am missing something when I have watched UNC but he just doesn't strike me as that guy. Is he quick? Yeah, He is quick but not enough where he will blow by Jon(or Nolan). Wouldn't be surprised to see Nolan guarding him, in which case would be a advantage for Duke.

Would like to hear your full thoughts on Mr. DrewII

I do see Drew as the Starting PG for UNC the next two years, and I do think he has the talent to lead UNC to a title. But he will need help, he is not a "take over the game" PG.

I see him as a Jimmy Black type PG, or for a Duke reference, a Tommy Amaker.

He does have the speed and quickness to get by Scheyer, and Nolan, and almost any other defender, if he wants to attack. (I agree that Nolan will likely guard him, because I think he can get by Scheyer easier off the dribble and cause Duke more trouble.)
His quickness is underestimated, and he has that change of speed hesitatation dribble that all good PG's have. He can go left or right comfortably.

For some reason, Roy does not have him in attack mode, he has him in leader/assist mode. Maybe Roy wants to have him more comfortable in his decision making before he gives him that green light to think score, I don't know.

As I mentioned in another post, I think not having quick wings surrounding him stymies his ability. Ginyard and Graves cannot take their defender off the dribble consistantly. That allows the defense to sag just a little and makes it much more difficult for Drew to get those entry passes to the post. When teams get real aggressive and get up in the players space defensively, Graves and Ginyard don't have the quickness to break open for easy passes, again making it tough on Drew, or any PG that had those issues.

With a little more quickness on the floor with him, I think we would all be talking about what a leader he was while getting those wings more involved for the heavy lifting. Next year he will have a more experienced Strickland, McDonald along with Bullock and HB. There is more quickness coming.

This year he needs to keep getting better with those decisions. He will sometimes try to force a pass, We all remember his bad passes, that's easy, but people are not picking up on his good ones. And he has lot's of good ones, that's why he leads the ACC in # of assists. He has a good handle. His TO's are not usually off the dribble, they are passing/decision errors.

Defensively, I think he is a good PG. All the TO's early in the year by the team did not help him show that, as he was always in recovery mode playing catch up, and out of position getting dunked on. They have started to take better care of the ball lately. When the game is settled and the D is set, he guards his man and he rotates well.

I have listened to his interviews, and he comes across as a very confident and strong willed guy. He has leadership ability and skills.

I don't think there is any doubt that Drew will lead this team for the next two seasons, and I have confidence he can do it well.

ChicagoHeel
01-31-2010, 12:21 PM
I've tended to be overly critical of LDII, but when I'm not overreacting to a bad turnover am happy to have him on my team. His skill set is fine- three point shooting, passing/ assists, dribble penetration, defense- but inconsistent. But that is to be expected of a sophomore who was very much a backup his first year. I would certainly rather see him as role player- coming off the bench to provide 15 solid minutes of support to a more dynamic PG, but think he can develop into a solid starter and we could win a NC with him at the helm. He needs to find balance between being aggressive and letting the game coming to him, playing fast but controlled, feeding the post and taking the shot, but a lot of that comes with experience.

I think he gets excessive criticism because he is compared to Lawson; more specifically to Lawson as he was in his final season- dominating. But there were times earlier in Lawson's when I had my doubts about his leadership and outside shot. I used to wonder if Lawson could hit a 3 as important as Felton's was in sealing the NC against Illinois. And there were times in Lawson's first couple of years when the Heels inexplicably were unable to score or run a coherent offense- 40-12 obviously comes to mind, but some losses to MD and the G-Town comeback in the Elite 8 were similar. During those games, LAwson had a "deer in the headlights" look and was often blamed for his inability to settle the team. This is not to say LD II will ever be Lawson, but rather that it is easy to forget how young UNC's backcourt is. They don't "suck", as the thread title indicates.

One other comment, I disagree with the conventional wisdom on this board that LD II suffers b/c Roy does not adapt his system and forces LD II to play up-tempo. My sense is that LD II is pretty good in the open court. He tends to make the most mistakes in the halfcourt offense. If I had to point to his biggest weakness, other than lack of experience, it would be a tendency to get down on himself and let one mistake lead to another. He's like Deon Thompson in that regard. If those two get off to good starts, they are much more likely to have a strong game. Both can allow a slow start to get into their heads and become tentative. (DT has largely overcome that tendency this year, but I think it's still somewhat there).

Others have pointed it out, but if Strickland becomes a bit more consistent, he and LD II could pose a formidable combination.

airowe
01-31-2010, 01:24 PM
I've become more and more superstitious about these kinds of threads and comments. I remember last year that DBR made a comment about Duke having obviously gotten the better player from the same team, between Gerald and Ellington. Then, like magic, Ellington suddenly starts hitting killer shots to become a major factor in leading UNC to a championship and is getting minutes in the NBA while Gerald is not. Sheesh. It's like jinx.

I think Drew is a fine point guard. UNC's back court problems seem to stem from inconsistency that doesn't show up in general stats. I also think their frontcourt has been overrated, it's a rather thin bunch that can be bullied. (Having said all that, the jinx will probably kick in and send them on a furious run of scoring and defending like mad men.)

Yeah, I should have never made that stupid bet with Wheat. Of course Graves is over performing everyone's expectations and seems to have started sharing some of his food with Henson. I think he needs to let Henson have some of his "appetite stimulant" though because it doesn't seem like he's eating it...

Fandango seems to be calling your name Wheat...

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 02:50 PM
Yeah, I should have never made that stupid bet with Wheat....
Fandango seems to be calling your name Wheat...

I thought that was a safe bet for me. My only concern at the time was the talk about some kind of back injury Graves was aparently dealing with, but that has not been a concern.

Watts has OK hands, is athletic, like Olek, but both struggled to protect the dribble, they just can't handle the rock well enough to get PT at this level of play.

Graves is not an elite wing, but he's a good all around player. He let's things come to him, he won't force things too much. I like his rebounding instincts. Unfortunately for UNC, he lacks a quick first step. He finds it hard to create space. It would be much better if he would drop 15 lbs, but he will never be considered "explosive". He's strong and has got good/soft hands. He can protect his dribble, he's a sound passer, and he will drain it from deep if left open.

His inability to "slash" or break down a defender with the dribble from the 3 spot bogs down UNC's offense at times. But the only other real options are an improving McDonald, or an out of position D. Wear. The 3 is UNC's weakest position. ( I see Ginyard as a 2).

I think Will's a solid defender, but speed kills and his problem is he has lead on his feet compared to most other 3's. He's always chasing. He won't beat the other 3 to a spot on the floor very often.

I think UNC matches up very well with Duke this year. And I like UNC's chances to win. We'll get into why when it's time for the Duke/UNC pre-game thread.

If you are willing to conceed the Graves/Watts bet, I'm willing to give you a chance at double or nothing...I'll take the Heels to win at the Dean dome.

You up for that?

We usually do the movies with my neighbors, so 4 Fandango tickets would work out just fine...:)

CDu
01-31-2010, 03:06 PM
His inability to "slash" or break down a defender with the dribble from the 3 spot bogs down UNC's offense at times. But the only other real options are an improving McDonald, or an out of position D. Wear. The 3 is UNC's weakest position. ( I see Ginyard as a 2).

I agree with your assessment of Graves. However, I disagree with the idea that Ginyard is a 2. I think this is one of the reasons he's struggled somewhat this year (along with the fact that he's being asked to be a scorer and leader, which is not his strength). I think Ginyard's best spot on the floor is at the 3. His size is perfectly suited for the 3, and I think he does better defending taller players. And the 3 spot is more of a catch and shoot/finish position rather than a ballhandling position, which is a weakness of his.

I think if you could play Graves and Ginyard exclusively at the 3, that spot would be a strong position for you. But having to play Ginyard at the 2 exposes his weaknesses, and means that Graves has to play too many minutes.


I think UNC matches up very well with Duke this year. And I like UNC's chances to win. We'll get into why when it's time for the Duke/UNC pre-game thread.

I think UNC actually matches up relatively poorly against Duke this year. We've struggled against teams who can spread the floor and have versatile bigs who can attack from the perimeter. UNC (at least right now) doesn't have the weapons to spread the floor and attack from the perimeter, and really depends on winning the game in the paint. Well, winning the game in the paint is actually a strength for Duke this year. The only loss we had against a team that played two bigs in the paint was @GT, and that was largely due to an atrocious shooting performance by us.

That's not saying that UNC can't win at least one game against Duke. We're clearly not a juggernaut and can be had on the road. And there's always the chance that your freshmen guards have that "lightswitch" moment and become difference makers against Duke. And beyond that, anything can happen in a rivalry game.

airowe
01-31-2010, 03:07 PM
I think UNC matches up very well with Duke this year. And I like UNC's chances to win. We'll get into why when it's time for the Duke/UNC pre-game thread.

If you are willing to conceed the Graves/Watts bet, I'm willing to give you a chance at double or nothing...I'll take the Heels to win at the Dean dome.

You up for that?

We usually do the movies with my neighbors, so 4 Fandango tickets would work out just fine...:)

I'm down with that.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm down with that.

You got it...

There are potential match up problems for UNC too, and I want to wait until the pre game thread to get into breaking down how I think the game could unfold, but I will say there are two UNC players that I think will make the difference for a UNC win, Deon and Strickland.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree with your assessment of Graves. However, I disagree with the idea that Ginyard is a 2. I think this is one of the reasons he's struggled somewhat this year (along with the fact that he's being asked to be a scorer and leader, which is not his strength). I think Ginyard's best spot on the floor is at the 3. His size is perfectly suited for the 3, and I think he does better defending taller players. And the 3 spot is more of a catch and shoot/finish position rather than a ballhandling position, which is a weakness of his.

I think if you could play Graves and Ginyard exclusively at the 3, that spot would be a strong position for you. But having to play Ginyard at the 2 exposes his weaknesses, and means that Graves has to play too many minutes.



I think UNC actually matches up relatively poorly against Duke this year. We've struggled against teams who can spread the floor and have versatile bigs who can attack from the perimeter. UNC (at least right now) doesn't have the weapons to spread the floor and attack from the perimeter, and really depends on winning the game in the paint. Well, winning the game in the paint is actually a strength for Duke this year. The only loss we had against a team that played two bigs in the paint was @GT, and that was largely due to an atrocious shooting performance by us.

That's not saying that UNC can't win at least one game against Duke. We're clearly not a juggernaut and can be had on the road. And there's always the chance that your freshmen guards have that "lightswitch" moment and become difference makers against Duke. And beyond that, anything can happen in a rivalry game.

Ginyard can certainly play the 3, but IMO, he does not bring anything to the table that Graves/McDonald can't do there, or D. Wear, for that matter.

I like him at the 2 because he can take some players off the dribble, and his size helps him make the entry passes against most 2's. He can defend at the 2, and he can get the same outside looks from 2 that he would get at the 3.

I would love to see McDonald have that light switch moment at the 3, because he has the best skill set for what the Heels need there, but I think he needs some more seasoning to reach his potential. I'll gladly let him surprise me.

CDu
01-31-2010, 04:16 PM
Ginyard can certainly play the 3, but IMO, he does not bring anything to the table that Graves/McDonald can't do there, or D. Wear, for that matter.

I disagree. Graves is certainly a better scorer and rebounder at the 3, but Ginyard is a better defender at the 3 than anyone else you have. Graves isn't as quick, and he's not as good a defender as Ginyard. McDonald is a 2 - he's much less suited to defend at the 3 than Ginyard. Wear is capable of playing the 3 in limited minutes against bigger 3s, but he can't defend the variety of players at the 3 the way Ginyard can. Like Henson, he's really a 4 who can at best just fill in at the 3.


I like him at the 2 because he can take some players off the dribble, and his size helps him make the entry passes against most 2's. He can defend at the 2, and he can get the same outside looks from 2 that he would get at the 3.

And I see these as Ginyard's biggest weaknesses at the 2. He's not a good enough ballhandler to take opposing 2s off the dribble, and he's not as good against quicker players. He's almost perfectly a college 3 - just a limited offensive player there. But he's a limited offensive player regardless.

At the 3, his ballhandling/passing weaknesses aren't exposed (because you have two better ballhandlers on the court), and he can still get his outside looks and provide his defensive presence.


I would love to see McDonald have that light switch moment at the 3, because he has the best skill set for what the Heels need there, but I think he needs some more seasoning to reach his potential. I'll gladly let him surprise me.

Again, McDonald's position is as a 2. He's smaller than Ginyard, and he's got better skills offensively than Ginyard. If he and Strickland can play well enough to complement Drew at the 1 and 2 spots for close to 80 minutes, I think you guys will be much better for it. That way, Ginyard could play most of his minutes at the 3, and you don't have to overuse Graves or be forced to play Henson and Wear out of position.

left_hook_lacey
01-31-2010, 04:44 PM
Drew does indeed make some boneheaded mistakes, and gets somewhat flustered from time to time, as most PGs do during their first year running the show(Raymond Felton and Ty Lawson certainly did), but by any rational assessment, he most certainly does not suck, and while Dexter Strickland has huge potential, Drew is significantly and consistently better than Strickland on both ends of the floor right now.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this assessment. I think Strickland has had more "WOW" plays with his speed going coast to coast to make an easy basket. I think that gives him a TY Lawson like killer instinct that gets Carolina fans excited that Drew doesn't seem to have yet. That being said, Drew is far and away the better PG, and doesn't make as many mistakes as some might think, its just that the mistakes that he makes are indeed bonehead passes and things like that, so even though it's only 1 turnover, it seems worse because it was such a glaring error.

It will be interesting to see how both of those players progress as the season goes on.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 05:11 PM
Again, McDonald's position is as a 2. He's smaller than Ginyard, and he's got better skills offensively than Ginyard. If he and Strickland can play well enough to complement Drew at the 1 and 2 spots for close to 80 minutes, I think you guys will be much better for it. That way, Ginyard could play most of his minutes at the 3, and you don't have to overuse Graves or be forced to play Henson and Wear out of position.

There is plenty of overlap at the positions for some players capable of playing both. So we will probably never agree on where each is best suited.

2/3's are Ginyard,McDonald
3/4's are Henson, D,Wear
4/5's are Deon, Davis, T. Wear, Zeller
PG/2's are Strickland and to some extent Ginyard.

Drew's a PG, and Graves is a 3.

I think UNC needs more slashing/quickness at the 3, that's why I like McDonald there.

Henson is a whole 'nother animal when at the 3. I think you will see him on the floor and primarily on Singlar if Duke starts making outside shots against the Heels. When he learns to shoot and finish at the rim from the 3, he will be a beast. (That won't be this year).

CDu
01-31-2010, 05:39 PM
There is plenty of overlap at the positions for some players capable of playing both. So we will probably never agree on where each is best suited.

2/3's are Ginyard,McDonald
3/4's are Henson, D,Wear
4/5's are Deon, Davis, T. Wear, Zeller
PG/2's are Strickland and to some extent Ginyard.

Drew's a PG, and Graves is a 3.

I think UNC needs more slashing/quickness at the 3, that's why I like McDonald there.

Henson is a whole 'nother animal when at the 3. I think you will see him on the floor and primarily on Singlar if Duke starts making outside shots against the Heels. When he learns to shoot and finish at the rim from the 3, he will be a beast. (That won't be this year).

I don't disagree with much of what you said here, except that Ginyard is REALLY not a PG. He has none of the skills for that position. I chuckled to myself when people were talking about Ginyard as a PG option before the season, and he's done nothing since to suggest he can do it. Your PG/2s are limited to Strickland and Strickland alone, both in theory and in practice this season.

And I know this is nitpicky, but you've mistyped this a few times. It's Singler, not Singlar. As for Henson's ability to play the 3, he certainly can be a nuisance defensively at times with his length. It just remains to be seen if he can do enough offensively to play more than 8-10 minutes. And while he won't let Singler shoot over him, I'd not be surprised if Singler goes around or through him for his points, drawing fouls on Henson.

DukeBlood
01-31-2010, 06:23 PM
I do see Drew as the Starting PG for UNC the next two years, and I do think he has the talent to lead UNC to a title. But he will need help, he is not a "take over the game" PG.

I see him as a Jimmy Black type PG, or for a Duke reference, a Tommy Amaker.

He does have the speed and quickness to get by Scheyer, and Nolan, and almost any other defender, if he wants to attack. (I agree that Nolan will likely guard him, because I think he can get by Scheyer easier off the dribble and cause Duke more trouble.)
His quickness is underestimated, and he has that change of speed hesitatation dribble that all good PG's have. He can go left or right comfortably.

For some reason, Roy does not have him in attack mode, he has him in leader/assist mode. Maybe Roy wants to have him more comfortable in his decision making before he gives him that green light to think score, I don't know.

As I mentioned in another post, I think not having quick wings surrounding him stymies his ability. Ginyard and Graves cannot take their defender off the dribble consistantly. That allows the defense to sag just a little and makes it much more difficult for Drew to get those entry passes to the post. When teams get real aggressive and get up in the players space defensively, Graves and Ginyard don't have the quickness to break open for easy passes, again making it tough on Drew, or any PG that had those issues.

With a little more quickness on the floor with him, I think we would all be talking about what a leader he was while getting those wings more involved for the heavy lifting. Next year he will have a more experienced Strickland, McDonald along with Bullock and HB. There is more quickness coming.

This year he needs to keep getting better with those decisions. He will sometimes try to force a pass, We all remember his bad passes, that's easy, but people are not picking up on his good ones. And he has lot's of good ones, that's why he leads the ACC in # of assists. He has a good handle. His TO's are not usually off the dribble, they are passing/decision errors.

Defensively, I think he is a good PG. All the TO's early in the year by the team did not help him show that, as he was always in recovery mode playing catch up, and out of position getting dunked on. They have started to take better care of the ball lately. When the game is settled and the D is set, he guards his man and he rotates well.

I have listened to his interviews, and he comes across as a very confident and strong willed guy. He has leadership ability and skills.

I don't think there is any doubt that Drew will lead this team for the next two seasons, and I have confidence he can do it well.

We will have to agree to disagree on somethings.

I personally see him struggling against Nolan, both offensively and defensively. I think the experience and skill level is just too much for him. Nolan is just as quick or maybe slightly quicker. Although Offense is always quicker then Defense. It will be one of the more interesting match-up's for the game.

I also don't see him as the PG that leads them to a title in the next couple of years. In the last 10 years almost every championship team had an elite PG, To me that isn't Drew II. I do believe he is a very serviceable PG and is very unfair to compare him to Lawson and Felton.

As far as a the other guards, they will be very good in due time. Strickland and McDonald both have skillsets just need some time to improve a little bit(most likely this off-season). There are alot of question marks this off-season(Will Davis stay or go, How good the incoming freshman etc,.) but if all goes well, UNC will most likely be favored to win the ACC title.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 07:27 PM
....I personally see him struggling against Nolan, both offensively and defensively. I think the experience and skill level is just too much for him. Nolan is just as quick or maybe slightly quicker. Although Offense is always quicker then Defense. It will be one of the more interesting match-up's for the game.

I also don't see him as the PG that leads them to a title in the next couple of years. In the last 10 years almost every championship team had an elite PG, To me that isn't Drew II. I do believe he is a very serviceable PG and is very unfair to compare him to Lawson and Felton.


Nolan is a very difficult match up for the Heels. In fact, he is likely to be the MOTM for Duke if Duke wins. I really expect Ginyard on him, but they will get caught in switches and Drew will have to take him on too, as will Strickland.

Drew's primary match up in the Duke game will be Scheyer, I'd say. But you might be right, Roy could decide he needs Drew's quickness on Nolan and put Ginyard on Scheyer.

I can't see a freshman Kendal Marshal unseating a Jr. Drew as the starting PG. Strickland either.

Next year I think we will see Drew,Strickland, HB, Davis and Zeller in the starting line up. If Davis does leave, insert T. Wear at PF.

But we are getting way ahead of ourselves now...:)

BTW, Check on the Singler misspelling......I was spacing out I do know better..

sandinmyshoes
01-31-2010, 09:11 PM
Based on this UVA game, it looks like Wheat got suckered in to a bad bet after having a sure win bet.

If you can pack the paint and force jump shots, UNC looks very shakey. Coach K will play some zone now, and we have enough height and size in the paint to do just that.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-31-2010, 10:12 PM
Based on this UVA game, it looks like Wheat got suckered in to a bad bet after having a sure win bet.

If you can pack the paint and force jump shots, UNC looks very shakey. Coach K will play some zone now, and we have enough height and size in the paint to do just that.

I wouldn't be so sure. It's all about who shows up, and with these two teams, who the heck knows from night to night?

natedog4ever
01-31-2010, 10:21 PM
One thing is for sure - when Drew II (electric boogaloo) makes that dive from the elbow of the 3-point line and tries to kick out to a player coming up from the baseline, or even just standing there at the sideline, it is a guaranteed turnover. I know it is sometimes the fault of the recipient (Ginyard mostly), but either way, it sucks. It doesn't mean that Drew #2 sucks, but if I were a tarheel fan, I would be saying "Dadgummit, this sucks".

airowe
01-31-2010, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't be so sure. It's all about who shows up, and with these two teams, who the heck knows from night to night?

Who the heck knows is right. I still like my chances though... :eek: is not walking through that door...

CDu
01-31-2010, 10:38 PM
Who the heck knows is right. I still like my chances though... :eek: is not walking through that door...

Well played sir. Well played. I'm amused.

Cell-R
01-31-2010, 10:39 PM
Who the heck knows is right. I still like my chances though... :eek: is not walking through that door...

I might have just died laughing.

SharkD
02-01-2010, 01:12 AM
Who the heck knows is right. I still like my chances though... :eek: is not walking through that door...

Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! ... Meeep! Meeep! Meeep! Meeeeeeeep! Meee-Meeep!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnT7pT6zCcA

(what a joyus thought)