Why Can't Zoubek Dunk (More Often)

[Mudge]

I remember reading a story about Wilt Chamberlain (who was listed at exactly the same height as Zoubek) being at an early morning shootaround (which Wilt had no interest in), and being tired from a late night out, Wilt was yawning and stretching underneath the basket-- as he stretched, he reached up above his head, and actually grabbed the rim, without jumping or leaving the ground at all.

If Wilt could do this, then so can Zoubek--which means that it doesn't matter how high Zoubek can jump-- no matter how vertically challenged he is, he should be able to dunk the ball with no problem whatsoever-- and yet he regularly tries to shoot layups off the backboard (and gets his shot blocked by smaller players), when breaking a defender's hand or wrist off on the rim is what is called for (in the mold of Shaq, or more topically, Booker, the other night).

I have seen Zoubek shoot uncontested layups this season, so there is no rhyme nor reason (nor even the excuse of being heavily guarded) to his decision to shoot backboard layups (of which he invariably misses a significant percentage) rather than dunking the ball. I would even rather have him miss a dunk occasionally (a` la Lance Thomas' embarrassing display the other night), if it meant that he was finally going to start going aggressively to the rim, as should be expected of a 7'1.5" player. Almost anything is better than watching him bring the ball down to waist height (making him ~4 feet tall, as Bobby Knight likes to say), pump fake several times (like his buddy in flawed big-man mechanics, Thomas), and then miss or get blocked by a much smaller man as he attempts to shoot a layup off the backboard, as he did again against Clemson. It's almost like Zoubek has a mental block about this-- I don't know how else to explain it... for now, Nolan Smith is a better bet to dunk the ball when going to the basket while guarded than Zoubek is-- and Smith is a foot shorter than Zoubek.

[Saratoga2]

He probably has shorter arms than Wilt and his vertical is miniscule. Even so, you have to believe he could dunk at his height. I believe he just doesn't have the confidence to go up directly and put the ball in. Bringing the ball down and pump faking just lead to recovery by the defense, and make him ineffective. He is an experienced senior and is unlikely to show improvement at this stage. He is what he is, a good rebounder, a man who can clog up the middle on defense and a decent passer who knows the Duke system. Don't expect a lot of offense and you won't be disappointed.

[theAlaskanBear]

You compare the most gifted athlete and basketball player of all time with our Brian Zoubek simply because they are both 7-feet tall????!!!??!

I have some news for you. 7-footers typically do not have natural athleticism, because of muscular and joint stress. Take that George kid at UNCA, 7-5 yes, but also never going to play professional basketball because of psysical constraints. He could hardly even play college basketball!

So for you to whine that Zoubek, who has had foot injuries his entire time at Duke, doesnt dunk enough for you is just stupid.

For every 7-footer like Wilt you can find, I will find 1000 more 7-footers like Zoubek.

[CDu]

I remember reading a story about Wilt Chamberlain (who was listed at exactly the same height as Zoubek) being at an early morning shootaround (which Wilt had no interest in), and being tired from a late night out, Wilt was yawning and stretching underneath the basket-- as he stretched, he reached up above his head, and actually grabbed the rim, without jumping or leaving the ground at all.

If Wilt could do this, then so can Zoubek--which means that it doesn't matter how high Zoubek can jump-- no matter how vertically challenged he is, he should be able to dunk the ball with no problem whatsoever-- and yet he regularly tries to shoot layups off the backboard (and gets his shot blocked by smaller players), when breaking a defender's hand or wrist off on the rim is what is called for (in the mold of Shaq, or more topically, Booker, the other night).

There are three problems with your logic. First, just because they are listed at the same height desn't mean that Zoubek and Chamberlain really are the same height. Second, there's no reason to assume that they have the same arm length/reach. Body types are not identical, and there is substantial variation in wingspan among people with the same heights. Third, the legend you provide about Chamberlain is almost certainly not true. Nobody in the last ten years (including several 7-footers) posted a standing reach of 10 feet at the draft combine. The highest was 9'8", by a guy who is 7'5". Most topped out at 9'5" or 9'6". For comparison, Hasheem Thabeet (who stood 7'2.5" in shoes) had a standing reach of 9'5":

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=6

So that sort of blows the theory out of the water that Zoubek should be able to simply reach the rim while standing. He's going to have to jump at least a foot to dunk - probably a bit higher.

So we've established that it takes a least a foot of elevation for Zoubek to dunk. Now let's get to the rest of the issue. Zoubek has had several foot surgeries. So those not only have robbed him of leaping ability, but they also mean that he's at a higher risk for future injury. As such, trying to explode off the floor to dunk (which results in a heavy landing on those damaged feet) puts him at greater risk.

It'd be nice if Zoubek could elevate. But between his lack of natural leaping ability and his history of foot injuries, it should be completely understandable why we don't see him dunk very often.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Great post. Zoubs and going up strong isn't a popular topic here. For some reason, everyone seems to blame 'injuries'. While injuries sure hampered his development, they don't prevent him from jumping more than half a foot to make a dunk. I'm sorry, but if Amare Stoudmaire can come back from microfracture surgery, something a million times more devastating than what Zoubs has endured, and be able to dunk easily, then I don't understand what is preventing Zoubs. Yes - the athletic ability is very different between the two players, but the point is that injuries aren't the sole cause.

I think you're mental block rationale is quick accurate. I am inclined to think the same thing.

As is, I have completely accepted Zoubs as an offensive liability and a solid defensive player. If Zoubs scores, I am really impressed. If he doesn't, I no longer throw my shoes at the TV.

[NSDukeFan]

Great post. Zoubs and going up strong isn't a popular topic here. For some reason, everyone seems to blame 'injuries'. While injuries sure hampered his development, they don't prevent him from jumping more than half a foot to make a dunk. I'm sorry, but if Amare Stoudmaire can come back from microfracture surgery, something a million times more devastating than what Zoubs has endured, and be able to dunk easily, then I don't understand what is preventing Zoubs. Yes - the athletic ability is very different between the two players, but the point is that injuries aren't the sole cause.

I think you're mental block rationale is quick accurate. I am inclined to think the same thing.

As is, I have completely accepted Zoubs as an offensive liability and a solid defensive player. If Zoubs scores, I am really impressed. If he doesn't, I no longer throw my shoes at the TV.

I wonder if people blame 'injuries' because they have been well documented, as opposed to a theory of mental block and comparisons to Wilt Chamberlain and Amare Stoudemire, two freak athletes who are tall and huge leapers.
I agree with you that Zoubek does not have spectacular low post moves and is not our best option down low to create his own shot (though he has shown an improved jump hook and a couple of nice moves). However, I would have to strongly disagree with your characterization of Zoubek as an offensive liability. His shooting percentage is fantastic and he has two and a half times as many offensive rebounds as turnovers (64-25). He sets good screens, usually makes good decisions with the ball, keeps our offense going and creates many more offensive possessions by rebounding than he loses by turning the ball over. There is a reason our team performs well when Zoubek is on the court (please refs, give the guy a break) and it is more than his great understanding of help-side defense.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I wonder if people blame 'injuries' because they have been well documented, as opposed to a theory of mental block and comparisons to Wilt Chamberlain and Amare Stoudemire, two freak athletes who are tall and huge leapers.
I agree with you that Zoubek does not have spectacular low post moves and is not our best option down low to create his own shot (though he has shown an improved jump hook and a couple of nice moves). However, I would have to strongly disagree with your characterization of Zoubek as an offensive liability. His shooting percentage is fantastic and he has two and a half times as many offensive rebounds as turnovers (64-25). He sets good screens, usually makes good decisions with the ball, keeps our offense going and creates many more offensive possessions by rebounding than he loses by turning the ball over. There is a reason our team performs well when Zoubek is on the court (please refs, give the guy a break) and it is more than his great understanding of help-side defense.

You have the right to disagree ;). In all honesty, I haven't been a huge fan of Zoubs. I appreciate his defensive presence. His defense against certain players is great. But, IMO, his offensive isn't great. His FG is through the roof, but that is because of the easier and less aggressive teams that we have played earlier in the season. Since ACC play started, his FG is 41% (7-17) compared to 62% on the year. That is noticeable. And this is against the competition that we will play from here on out. Also, against tougher competition, Zoubs looks like he hates to shoot. I haven't seen him post up recently; his opportunities are usually from offensive rebounds. He gets blocked more than any 7-seven footer that I've seen. And that includes Shawn Bradley. When he is on the floor, I think we play 4-on-5 (contrary to many, I really like LT's game, both offensive and defense. He won't score a ton of points, but he takes advantage of opportunities, ala Clemson. I feel that Z doesn't).

As I said, Amare v Zoubs isn't a great comparison. Okay, it's a terrible one. But the point I am trying to make is that injuries aren't the sole cause for his lack of jumping. It is a lack of athletic ability coupled with some fear of going up. I'm sorry, but 3-4 jump fakes when you're 7'1.5" is a little excessive, no?

I am happy Z is on the team for his defense. But on offense, I'm not the biggest fan.

[dukegirlinsc]

It's almost like his hands and feet are too big.

[NSDukeFan]

You have the right to disagree ;). In all honesty, I haven't been a huge fan of Zoubs. I appreciate his defensive presence. His defense against certain players is great. But, IMO, his offensive isn't great. His FG is through the roof, but that is because of the easier and less aggressive teams that we have played earlier in the season. Since ACC play started, his FG is 41% (7-17) compared to 62% on the year. That is noticeable. And this is against the competition that we will play from here on out. Also, against tougher competition, Zoubs looks like he hates to shoot. I haven't seen him post up recently; his opportunities are usually from offensive rebounds. He gets blocked more than any 7-seven footer that I've seen. And that includes Shawn Bradley. When he is on the floor, I think we play 4-on-5 (contrary to many, I really like LT's game, both offensive and defense. He won't score a ton of points, but he takes advantage of opportunities, ala Clemson. I feel that Z doesn't).

As I said, Amare v Zoubs isn't a great comparison. Okay, it's a terrible one. But the point I am trying to make is that injuries aren't the sole cause for his lack of jumping. It is a lack of athletic ability coupled with some fear of going up. I'm sorry, but 3-4 jump fakes when you're 7'1.5" is a little excessive, no?

I am happy Z is on the team for his defense. But on offense, I'm not the biggest fan.

For some reason (probably at least in part because I dislike hearing negative comments about our players and I get great enjoyment from seeing players improve over 4 years), I am a huge fan of Zoubek, so many of our disagreements are based on perspective. I think your points about him getting blocked and 3-4 ball fakes are perhaps related. Since he has been blocked a number of times, he sometimes looks to create better opportunities with fakes. As you have said it may be excessive and he may have better success by just going straight up. I think he has been doing more of that lately. The other reason I give Z a pass on his lack of creating his own shot on the offensive end is I feel that his offensive rebounding is so good, that he often gives the team extra possessions. I also agree that his drop in fg% (and woeful FT% so far this year) since the start of ACC play is concerning and I am hoping that will improve going forward.

[grossbus]

when this subject first came up a couple of years ago, someone who had seen him play in high school posted that he has always looked to put the ball off the board instead of dunking.

it is what it is.

[NYDukie]

Z's play is definitely a lightning rod of controversy at times to many posters. Here we have player 7'1 whom I don't recall seeing ever dunk this year nor remembering him dunk in the past while at Duke. In addition, there are so many numerous times in which he gets the ball in post and frequently brings the ball down to either make himself the equivalent of a guard or times when he just gets flat out blocked by guys a good 6 inches as one poster pointed out. There haven been also many times I've seen him trip over his feet making a move to the basket and get called for a travel or just clumsly get in the way defensively and get called for a stupid foul. And this all happens every game in some combination. Although I am still frequently frustrated when this occurs, I DO NOT find myself screaming at the TV at Z as I did years before. My wife the other night watching him get blocked and not try to dunk had her screaming...had to be the funniest thing of our night...LOL As one poster perfectly put it, if you accept Zoubs for what he is, which is a solid to sometimes above average defender depending on matchups, above average rebounder who is a mediocre offensive presences, if not frustrating, that will provide 15 mins of foul induced (sometimes his fault and sometimes him just being big and in the wrong spot) play then you will be a content Duke fan of Zoubs.

That said, my only significant issue is this. I can live with the non dunking, be it for whatever reason. I would just like to see more aggressiveness from Z going up to the basket. To many times he just seems passive and once the defender gets his hand on the ball, its either stripped or blocked. I rarely have seen him play through such a defenders attempt at the ball. All in all, Z has a role on this team, an important one and as frustrating as it is at times to watch, I can deal with it and be more happy with him than upset with him.

[Channing]

for what its worth, Zoubek has no problem dunking in layup lines, and does so easily, getting above the rim and throwing the ball down through the hoop.

Its not an issue of can/can't, its a question of confidence.

[cbnaylor]

I believe it's a mental thing as well. I recalled the othre night where Zoubek was in the perfect position to go up strong for the two points but drop the ball down and did a a little one two head fake which the end result was.......no points. As he was going back down the court, Smith was jumping down his throat........Zoubek looked mad at himself.

[MChambers]

But, IMO, his offensive isn't great. His FG is through the roof, but that is because of the easier and less aggressive teams that we have played earlier in the season. Since ACC play started, his FG is 41% (7-17) compared to 62% on the year. That is noticeable. And this is against the competition that we will play from here on out. Also, against tougher competition, Zoubs looks like he hates to shoot.

* * *

I am happy Z is on the team for his defense. But on offense, I'm not the biggest fan.

I agree that Zoubs isn't much of a low post scorer, but he does make some nice passes out of the low post, like the one to Singler cutting down the lane in the Clemson game. He also finds open three point shooters off offensive rebounds.

[CrazieDUMB]

I feel like this is a thread that has been running for four years, basically why isn't Zoubek a little better than he is? I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that almost everyone on this board wants Duke to win a NC, so we're constantly playing the what-if game. The Zoo/frontcourt question is a big one, because there are so many variables. The fact is, while each of the four options has great aspects, no one really has close to a complete package, and we're beating ourselves to death over the same things.

Zoo will get offensive rebounds, stuff penetrating guards and score points when playing against a short frontcourt.

Zoo will not develop a 10-15 ppg post game against decent defenders. He will not dunk. He will continue to get stupid reach fouls. He's a huge liability when playing away from the basket.

I know it seems reductionist, and there are always exceptions, but this is who Zoo is. The key is going to be K figuring out how all these pieces play together and who should play in what situation. Zoo is 1/4 of our frontcourt, and at times he's extremely effective. Other times, not so much. Let's stop asking to be something he's not.

[left_hook_lacey]

You compare the most gifted athlete and basketball player of all time with our Brian Zoubek simply because they are both 7-feet tall????!!!??!

I have some news for you. 7-footers typically do not have natural athleticism, because of muscular and joint stress. Take that George kid at UNCA, 7-5 yes, but also never going to play professional basketball because of psysical constraints. He could hardly even play college basketball!

So for you to whine that Zoubek, who has had foot injuries his entire time at Duke, doesnt dunk enough for you is just stupid.

For every 7-footer like Wilt you can find, I will find 1000 more 7-footers like Zoubek.

That's not entirely true about Kenny George. He had many NBA scouts that showed interest. His career was ended early because he contracted a staff infection in his foot that threatened his life and had to have part of his foot amputated. Last I heard he had made a full recovery and returned to UNCA to finish his degree, but the report was that he would probably never be able to play basketball again. Would he have been an NBA star, no, but there were a lot of teams that would've picked him up for a couple minutes a game. His conditioning was his only draw back.

[MulletMan]

I'm sorry, but if Amare Stoudmaire can come back from microfracture surgery, something a million times more devastating than what Zoubs has endured, and be able to dunk easily, then I don't understand what is preventing Zoubs. Yes - the athletic ability is very different between the two players, but the point is that injuries aren't the sole cause.


Are you seriously comparing Amare Stoudamire to Zoubek? Really? OK... well if we're looking at random injuries to make points, ummmmm.... well Sam Bowie broke his leg and was never really a good 7 footer after that. And Bill Walton never really recovered from bad knees... so I guess Zoubek is a super hero for coming back from a broken foot? C'mon. Amare Stoudamire... please.

And for those who think Zoubek doesn't add anything on the offensive end, why don't you take a little time and look at the leaders in offensive rebounding for Duke and through out the ACC. Really people, there's more to the game than scoring 25 points a night.

[loran16]

You know, Zoo can dunk, as evidenced by warm-ups.

But he just (as has been said) doesn't....like he mentally doesn't like to do so.

Drives me crazy; but it's not likely he'll change at this point.

[jjasper0729]

I believe it's a mental thing as well. I recalled the othre night where Zoubek was in the perfect position to go up strong for the two points but drop the ball down and did a a little one two head fake which the end result was.......no points. As he was going back down the court, Smith was jumping down his throat........Zoubek looked mad at himself.

I believe I screamed at the computer and made note in snrub that the nice pass from the drawn double by our guard gave Z a nice open layup but he caught it and did a pump fake allowing the defender to turn and recover and hence no score.

it can be exasperating at times, but he knows his role and if he can go up strong when the opportunity presents itself, it's gravy on the potatoes.

[grossbus]

"Bill Walton never really recovered from bad knees."

was bad feet.

[jv001]

Came to DBR this morning and expecting to see some really nice posts regarding a very big win. But the first two threads I see are ones complaining about Zoubs and Lance. I just don't get it. These two guys have given it all for four years and just when they are really contributing, some people take them to task. Hey LT and Zoubs, I appreciate you guys and keep up the good work. Go Duke!

[calltheobvious]

I remember reading a story about Wilt Chamberlain (who was listed at exactly the same height as Zoubek) being at an early morning shootaround (which Wilt had no interest in), and being tired from a late night out, Wilt was yawning and stretching underneath the basket-- as he stretched, he reached up above his head, and actually grabbed the rim, without jumping or leaving the ground at all.

If Wilt could do this, then so can Zoubek--which means that it doesn't matter how high Zoubek can jump-- no matter how vertically challenged he is, he should be able to dunk the ball with no problem whatsoever-- and yet he regularly tries to shoot layups off the backboard (and gets his shot blocked by smaller players), when breaking a defender's hand or wrist off on the rim is what is called for (in the mold of Shaq, or more topically, Booker, the other night).

I have seen Zoubek shoot uncontested layups this season, so there is no rhyme nor reason (nor even the excuse of being heavily guarded) to his decision to shoot backboard layups (of which he invariably misses a significant percentage) rather than dunking the ball. I would even rather have him miss a dunk occasionally (a` la Lance Thomas' embarrassing display the other night), if it meant that he was finally going to start going aggressively to the rim, as should be expected of a 7'1.5" player. Almost anything is better than watching him bring the ball down to waist height (making him ~4 feet tall, as Bobby Knight likes to say), pump fake several times (like his buddy in flawed big-man mechanics, Thomas), and then miss or get blocked by a much smaller man as he attempts to shoot a layup off the backboard, as he did again against Clemson. It's almost like Zoubek has a mental block about this-- I don't know how else to explain it... for now, Nolan Smith is a better bet to dunk the ball when going to the basket while guarded than Zoubek is-- and Smith is a foot shorter than Zoubek.

First, Zoubek has shown marked improvement in the last three weeks in the frequency with which he brings the ball down in a crowded lane, so he deserves some credit for that. Second, I think you unwittingly hit upon a reason that he’s had such a problem in his career with bringing the ball down in these situations.

Though Zoubek was probably never a great leaper, I have to believe that pre-foot-injuries he was able to rebound the ball, keep it at shoulder-level or above, and go back up and dunk the ball without much trouble. I’m sure he can still dunk, but whatever quickness he ever had in bouncing off the floor is now gone. In order to dunk now, he has to get a much deeper knee-bend than he formerly required, and the body’s reflexive response to significant knee-bends is to lower the arms, as the spring (body) has to be compressed before it gets a big energy-release. I think Brian’s mind knows that it’s a bad idea to bring the ball down, but his mind also knows that the dunk is, in a perfect world, the highest-percentage play. It’s taken him a long time to adjust to his physical limitations that bring these two things into conflict. The best available outcome for him is thus to try to keep the ball high and be content to try to lay the ball off the glass.

If this theory is correct, then Z has essentially had to re-learn how to execute a huge part of his game in college. This is much, much different (and far more difficult) than an unpolished defender coming in and struggling to pick up the principles of Duke’s help defense, which, btw he’s also had to learn. Ask yourself what it would be like for JJ to come to college and suffer foot injuries to the extent that he could no longer shoot a real jump-shot, but instead had to be content to shoot set shots. How long would it have taken his brain and his body to figure out how to play that way?

[langdonfan]

You know, Zoo can dunk, as evidenced by warm-ups.

But he just (as has been said) doesn't....like he mentally doesn't like to do so.

Drives me crazy; but it's not likely he'll change at this point.


I am glad a couple of people have brought this up. Brian Zoubek CAN certainly dunk! One problem is we almost never get to see Brian get the ball on a fast break where he could dunk it as if he were running a layup drill. Hey, John Scheyer is 6-5 and I figure he can probably dunk as well, but I'd rather see him take a clean layup rather than potentially miss a dunk.

When you have to gather yourself and go up strong for a dunk with someone coming at you, even at 7-1, it's nothing like a layup drill. If Brian is more confident going for a layup then so be it. In the heat of the moment, I want the player to worry about simply getting the ball into the basket.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Are you seriously comparing Amare Stoudamire to Zoubek? Really? OK... well if we're looking at random injuries to make points, ummmmm.... well Sam Bowie broke his leg and was never really a good 7 footer after that. And Bill Walton never really recovered from bad knees... so I guess Zoubek is a super hero for coming back from a broken foot? C'mon. Amare Stoudamire... please.

And for those who think Zoubek doesn't add anything on the offensive end, why don't you take a little time and look at the leaders in offensive rebounding for Duke and through out the ACC. Really people, there's more to the game than scoring 25 points a night.

Wow. People are really blowing this example out of proportion (and, yes, I see why). If you read the rest of that post and the one that followed, you'd see that my point is injuries can only derail a player's effectiveness to a certain degree. Z broke his foot, what, two years ago? And he still can't jump or finish decently strong? I don't buy that. I personally think it's mental. I'm 6'3" and sadly play the 5 in pickup. If a guy 5'8" consistently blocked me, I would always think twice before going up (it's the equivalent of a 6'4" blocking Z). His confidence in shooting must be down - I think that is a much more believable answer than "Z was injured two years ago so his athletic ability has been hampered" argument that everyone around here loves to bring up.

[calltheobvious]

Wow. People are really blowing this example out of proportion (and, yes, I see why). If you read the rest of that post and the one that followed, you'd see that my point is injuries can only derail a player's effectiveness to a certain degree. Z broke his foot, what, two years ago? And he still can't jump or finish decently strong? I don't buy that. I personally think it's mental. I'm 6'3" and sadly play the 5 in pickup. If a guy 5'8" consistently blocked me, I would always think twice before going up (it's the equivalent of a 6'4" blocking Z). His confidence in shooting must be down - I think that is a much more believable answer than "Z was injured two years ago so his athletic ability has been hampered" argument that everyone around here loves to bring up.


Is it at least conceivable to you that his injuries were such that a complete physical recovery was impossible?

[greybeard]

Kareem never dunked even once in college, not once. If his old coach had his way, and he is the most successful coach the game has ever known, no one would be dunking. No one.

Zoubek moved much, much more easily towards the ball, and to a lsesser extent with it as well, as a freshman than now, although he is much smarter with it now. I think that the feet and all the strength training have hampered his offensive game. I believe that if he continues to play beyond college he might well find his way to becoming a much, much better scorer. The muscle he put on this past year is truly impressive, and will serve him well as he gets more and more time to experiment with the use of his new body.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Is it at least conceivable to you that his injuries were such that a complete physical recovery was impossible?

Yes - I do understand the potential in an impossible complete physical recovery. That said, is it not also possible for Z to be fully recovered and still not be able to play above rim due to mental toughness / confidence? That is also a possibility.

I am hard on Z, I realize that. Maybe I shouldn't be, but the excitement I had when I was a senior at Duke with a freshman 7 footer coming in did not pan out the way I wish it had. I am probably harder on Z than any other player. I love it when Thomas launches those jump shots - I feel confident in his confidence to nail those. When Z has the ball down low, I loss all confidence in that possession. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I feel.

[SupaDave]

I am hard on Z, I realize that. Maybe I shouldn't be, but the excitement I had when I was a senior at Duke with a freshman 7 footer coming in did not pan out the way I wish it had.

Sounds like you should mad at yourself for unrealistic expectations - Zoubs is as he was projected to be...
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=1013061

And based on the rankings he's about where he is supposed to be - only a few players in his class have done more outside of the top 10 and the top 5 is understandable...(with Oden's injuries as irony b/c he's still nothing but potential).
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2006

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

Came to DBR this morning and expecting to see some really nice posts regarding a very big win. But the first two threads I see are ones complaining about Zoubs and Lance. I just don't get it. These two guys have given it all for four years and just when they are really contributing, some people take them to task. Hey LT and Zoubs, I appreciate you guys and keep up the good work. Go Duke!

I share your sentiments exactly. However, I have to admit that it is so frustrating to see Zoubs not finish strong around the basket. Lance has always played like a warrior (against bigger/stronger opponents for 4 yrs.) and some games we get a little gravy with his offensive input. I will continue to support these guys regardless of any flaws just as long as they leave it all on the court...that's all we can ask or hope for.

[Exiled_Devil]

You know, Zoo can dunk, as evidenced by warm-ups.

But he just (as has been said) doesn't....like he mentally doesn't like to do so.

Drives me crazy; but it's not likely he'll change at this point.

NO ONE on Duke dunks as mush as they can. If you've been watching Duke for any amount of time, you may have picked up on this. We shoot layups.

This year I have seen more missed dunks by Duke than ever before, and now I realize why - when you miss a lay-up, the rebound comes down close to you. When you miss a dunk, the rebound can launch out like a jump shot rebound and give the defenders an advantage in moving to transition.

I think this was one of the reasons that our players, past and present, have been labeled 'unathletic'. Dunks are athletic, layups not. Battier was one example - labeled unathletic and outstripped his entire draft in the 'superman dunk drill' That is repeat dunks in a row.

Z does have some issue with health, obviously. But notice how much Plumlees 1 and 2 lay up when they could dunk. The dunk is rarely the smartest play.

[MADevil30]

Kareem never dunked even once in college, not once. If his old coach had his way, and he is the most successful coach the game has ever known, no one would be dunking. No one.

This just isn't true. Dunking was banned in the NCAA prior the 1967-1968 partly because Kareem (Lew Alcindor) scored so many points that way in his freshman year. I believe Wooden and Alcindor both later said that the rule made him a better player because he had to learn to score other ways, but the point was never that it was bad to dunk. A powerful dunk is a big advantage to a team; it demoralizes the opponent, energizes teammates, gets the crowd fired up at home, and shuts them up on the road. It is a case of 2 points being more than just 2 points. I am always 100% percent behind Duke basketball and its players, but it is unbelievable to me that Zoubs can't manage to play with a little more authority when he is so often so much bigger than the players guarding him.

[DUKIE V(A)]

This thread is comical. Can we at least admit that it's just a wee bit tougher (even at 7'1") to finish against 6'4" to 6'9" guys who are world class athletes and play well above the rim than guys we are taller than in pick-up? It's just not the same. Not even close. Too many flawed arguements in this thread to count.

[94duke]

Funny how you never hear people saying that Laettner should have dunked more.

I think people just say that Z should dunk more because he hesitates so often and will sometimes miss the lay-up.

On the instances when he doesn't hesitate after a rebound and puts it back immediately to score, he looks great. The problem is that he hesitates sometimes. The problem isn't the lack of dunking. The problem is the hesitation.

As for missed lay-ups, a dunk is a harder shot than a lay-up. If you're missing lay-ups, you're going to miss dunks, too.

[BD80]

Dunking in a lay-up line with some momentum is MUCH easier than dunking from a stationary position under the rim.

My question is how well Z can palm the ball. It is also much easier to dunk with one hand than with two, but Z might not be able to control it well enough with one hand in traffic. Remember, the entire diameter of the ball (9.39") must clear the top of the rim, so a decent lift is required even for 7' players, more if the player has issues controlling the ball.

Comparing Z to Wilt in any manner is laughable, akin to comparing Wojo to Isaiah. Wilt had very long arms, and could grab the net and stretch while standing under the basket.

Wasn't it Krause who said that the most relevant height measurement was to the shoulder?

I am impressed with Z's lateral movement, particularly in getting position on the offensive boards. His strength on the boards has made a significant difference for this team, and his defense on the pick and roll has become reliable.

[Huh?]

Sounds like you should mad at yourself for unrealistic expectations - Zoubs is as he was projected to be...
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=1013061

And based on the rankings he's about where he is supposed to be - only a few players in his class have done more outside of the top 10 and the top 5 is understandable...(with Oden's injuries as irony b/c he's still nothing but potential).
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2006


It's crazy to look back at those lists and see how guys ended up. One just never knows.......

[calltheobvious]

Yes - I do understand the potential in an impossible complete physical recovery. That said, is it not also possible for Z to be fully recovered and still not be able to play above rim due to mental toughness / confidence? That is also a possibility.

I am hard on Z, I realize that. Maybe I shouldn't be, but the excitement I had when I was a senior at Duke with a freshman 7 footer coming in did not pan out the way I wish it had. I am probably harder on Z than any other player. I love it when Thomas launches those jump shots - I feel confident in his confidence to nail those. When Z has the ball down low, I loss all confidence in that possession. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I feel.

Of course it's a possibility. But here's the thing: he's either trying to do things that are tough physically even under the best of circumstances; or he's trying to do things that are really tough for him mentally (and of course a combination of the two is possible, if not likely). Whatever the case, do you have any reason to believe that he hasn't worked extremely hard on this? If you don't, I'd ask you to give the kid a break.

[Kedsy]

Here we have player 7'1 whom I don't recall seeing ever dunk this year nor remembering him dunk in the past while at Duke.

I have seen him dunk in games. Twice. (Both were last season, rather than this season, but still.)

I also get frustrated when he brings the ball down and tries multiple shot fakes, but this year at least he's also showing a lot more aggression toward the basket than he has in the past. For me at least, I would say it's split close to even between wanting to say "Why does he do that?" and "Wow, nice play, why doesn't he do that all the time?" And that's an improvement over prior years.

In the end, his defense and superb offensive rebounding allows the team to perform better when he's in the game (as evidenced by his consistently strong plus/minus numbers). His per minute stats and shooting percentage are very strong (although I've noticed the reduced FG% in ACC games as well). He's an asset to the team.

[Spam Filter]

Zoubek can't dunk.

Yes, he can dunk in drills where he can get a running start. But he simply can't dunk flatfooted. People complain about him bringing the ball down, but that's because he has to gather himself before he can go up for a layup. If he tries to dunk while flatfooted he'd have to gather himself even longer, and hence get blocked/stripped even more frequently.

The reason he goes up for layups is because all things considered, it's his best means to score. Yes some of the layups will rim out, but all things considered that's better than getting stripped more often which can lead to run outs the other way.

He is what he is. Asking why Zoubek can't dunk like Chamberlain is like asking why David McClure can't shoot like JJ Redick.

[ncexnyc]

Over the years I've commented on Lance's spastic energy and what appears to be a general lack of coordination on Brian's part.

Now that both of them are in their Senior year I've come to accept them for what they are. Two kids who give it their all everytime they step on the floor. If this is good enough for Coach K, then certainly it should be good enough for us.

I've also mentioned this before, both Lance and Brian are convienent whipping boys on this site. When one of their more gifted teamates stink it up, that player tends to get a free pass, but let Lance or Brian make a bad play or two in a game and some people start screaming for their heads, it just isn't fair.

[Kedsy]

This just isn't true. Dunking was banned in the NCAA prior the 1967-1968 partly because Kareem (Lew Alcindor) scored so many points that way in his freshman year.

I don't know when the anti-dunk rule was passed or why, but I do know that when Lew Alcindor was a freshman, freshmen weren't allowed to play on the varsity team. You mean he had so many dunks on the freshman/JV team they passed a rule about it?

[greybeard]

This just isn't true. Dunking was banned in the NCAA prior the 1967-1968 partly because Kareem (Lew Alcindor) scored so many points that way in his freshman year. I believe Wooden and Alcindor both later said that the rule made him a better player because he had to learn to score other ways, but the point was never that it was bad to dunk. A powerful dunk is a big advantage to a team; it demoralizes the opponent, energizes teammates, gets the crowd fired up at home, and shuts them up on the road. It is a case of 2 points being more than just 2 points. I am always 100% percent behind Duke basketball and its players, but it is unbelievable to me that Zoubs can't manage to play with a little more authority when he is so often so much bigger than the players guarding him.

Wooden to this day is a vocal proponent of banning the dunk. It is a crummy play, which many players execute by violating the rules that are not called and cheapen the game; that many execute by hanging on the rim or they'd kill themselves (which used to be against the rules--I'm not talking here about guys' avoiding someone who is under them, I am talking about guys who are way, way out of balance and use the rim as a prop or they couldn't "shoot" the "shot" they chose, which I understand as cheating); and others would miss if it weren't for pull down rims.

The dunk takes defensive plays at the rim out of the game, substitutes pushing and shoving for position in the low block which should be a foul but isn't because you have to keep big guys away from the rim because they can dunk, all to what end? If you cannot score from two feet from the basket a good percentage of the time it makes the game interesting. Either you are up against an exceptional defender or you have some practicing to do. Z, notwithstanding the discussion below, scores the ball a very high percentage of the time without dunking. I think that he could score way, way more with a very, very, very high percentage, but not how he currently has been taught to organize (see below).

Great finishers can and still do display a wonderful array of skill and creativity that bespeaks of real touch and mastery of the defender without coming close to dunking.

Nolan has learned to finish safely rather than seeking to ram everything through and I find his displays of athleticism equally breath taking--he'll start an attack at one pace, turn the corner with a burst, collect himself and time a particular chosen finish that leaves him ready to run the other way on defense without risking landing on his back, which he did regularly his first two seasons.

Zoubek has learned to carry his spine all the way through his head like it was a piece of wood. Probably the result of all that core training. One cannot have soft hands and touch, soft and quick feet, an ability to change direction including going vertical easily if the spine, neck, and ribs are frozen. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE!!!!!! A head that is free to move up and down and turn in any direction easily is the sine quo non of all effective movement except if you are building core muscles by working your flexors against your erectors, which is literally getting in your own way. That, in my opinion, is what Brian is now doing. He will learn to get out of his own way in time, once he gets away of these trainers, and he'll make more layups and other shots. He'll also have more fun.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Of course it's a possibility. But here's the thing: he's either trying to do things that are tough physically even under the best of circumstances; or he's trying to do things that are really tough for him mentally (and of course a combination of the two is possible, if not likely). Whatever the case, do you have any reason to believe that he hasn't worked extremely hard on this? If you don't, I'd ask you to give the kid a break.

I've clearly not made any friends on this forum with my thoughts on Z ;).

I commend the kid for his hard work. He is very smart (after all, if you choose between Stanford, Harvard, and Duke, academics are clearly the priority and, to me, that's the most important part of a sports scholy), probably works his tail off and represents Duke well.

That said, from a basketball performance standpoint, it's a different matter. I won't get into reasons why again - I'll just leave it at that. Anyway, I'll see you all on another thread.

FDD

[SharkD]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that, in his day, Patrick Davidson could reach the rim, without jumping... while laying down. :cool:

[pfrduke]

That said, from a basketball performance standpoint, it's a different matter. I won't get into reasons why again - I'll just leave it at that. Anyway, I'll see you all on another thread.

This isn't necessarily directed at you personally, but yours was the most convenient post to respond to.

I think we, as fans, have inflated expectations for centers as a general matter. It seems to be a combination of height (an example is the first post in this thread - the "if he's 7'0", why can't he just dominate" school of thought) and the way that the best centers make the game look easier than the best guards. With guards, even the very best, the degree of difficulty in their game is more readily apparent, and the sense of doing something very hard to do is a lot stronger. We have a lot more "how did he do that" moments when we watch guards than when we watch big men. Centers typically execute in a more straightforward manner - catch, drop-step, layup; pick, roll, catch, layup; catch, face-up, 8-foot jumper/bank-shot, etc.

As a result, we tend to want our centers to be more perfect than our guards. This leads to nitpicking big-man performance more than guard performance. With Zoubek, I feel like this is increased because his flaws are things we think should be easy - dunking, not traveling, not bringing the ball down to collect, etc.

In reality, he has been an extremely effective player for us this season. He shoots 61.4% from the floor. He's putting up 5.4 points and 6.8 rebounds in about 16 minutes per game - combined with Miles, we have 40 minutes of center play this season that's worth about 13 points and 13 rebounds a game, better production than we've had at the 5 since Williams left. He's going to set career highs in points, rebounds, assists, steals and possibly blocks this season, numbers that have improved each season he's been here. For all his failings (which certainly exist - I'm not trying to suggest they don't), Zoubek brings more to the table than he takes away.

[taiw93]

For those of you who say that Zoubek cannot dunk, I encourage you to get to a basketball game during warmups; I got to this year's Gonzaga game early, and found that Zoubek can not only dunk, but also do so flatfooted, and with a relative degree of power and authority. And, for those of you who STILL don't think so, check out highlights of last year's Xavier game. Zoubek's issue is simply that he cannot get off the ground quickly enough to dunk in traffic at game speed - in other words, he is not a springy leaper. It takes him a rather significant knee-bend (and thus, a rather significant amount of time) to do so, but yes, Zoubek can dunk (flatfooted too!).

[SupaDave]

For those of you who say that Zoubek cannot dunk, I encourage you to get to a basketball game during warmups; I got to this year's Gonzaga game early, and found that Zoubek can not only dunk, but also do so flatfooted, and with a relative degree of power and authority. And, for those of you who STILL don't think so, check out highlights of last year's Xavier game. Zoubek's issue is simply that he cannot get off the ground quickly enough to dunk in traffic at game speed - in other words, he is not a springy leaper. It takes him a rather significant knee-bend (and thus, a rather significant amount of time) to do so, but yes, Zoubek can dunk (flatfooted too!).

POTD... This actually addresses the initial question of the thread to a tee... The rest is pretty much unimportant.

[MADevil30]

I don't know when the anti-dunk rule was passed or why, but I do know that when Lew Alcindor was a freshman, freshmen weren't allowed to play on the varsity team. You mean he had so many dunks on the freshman/JV team they passed a rule about it?

Good catch, my mistake. I should have said "his first year playing varsity"

[Greg_Newton]

Sounds like you should mad at yourself for unrealistic expectations - Zoubs is as he was projected to be...
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=1013061

And based on the rankings he's about where he is supposed to be - only a few players in his class have done more outside of the top 10 and the top 5 is understandable...(with Oden's injuries as irony b/c he's still nothing but potential).
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2006

I'm sorry, but this is a little too much... you expect the #7 center in any class to be more than a 4-year backup. The top 5 were/are all college stars, and Thabeet, Harangody, Speights and Pittman were all ranked lower. Josh Hairston is the #10 PF in his class per Scout, and I'm pretty sure we all have higher expectations for him than Z's trajectory.

That said, I'm all for Z keeping the ball high and getting the ball up quickly instead of bringing the ball down and then trying to dunk. I would guess he doesn't have more than a 12-16" vertical when he doesn't bend down low, which we put his fingertips at about 10'3-10'5... not enough to reliably dunk. He's finished very well this year given his limitations, IMO.

My two wishes for him are 1) arms vertical on defense, and 2) settle down on his post moves. He's got very good touch around the rim, he just needs to stop trying to cover so much ground on his back-to-basket moves. It almost always results in him traveling or falling. All he needs is a little shoulder-bump for separation followed by a little baby hook or turnaround... it's been a very high percentage shot when he's stayed composed enough to execute it.

[SupaDave]

I'm sorry, but this is a little too much... you expect the #7 center in any class to be more than a 4-year backup. The top 5 were/are all college stars, and Thabeet, Harangody, Speights and Pittman were all ranked lower. Josh Hairston is the #10 PF in his class per Scout, and I'm pretty sure we all have higher expectations for him than Z's trajectory.

Actually you prove that your expectations are a bit high and that rankings are indeed a crap shoot.

Eric Boateng was the #3 Center the year prior... Hmmm - what did he turn into?
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2005

Just take a look at those "monster" centers from 2005... Zoubek happened to be a part of a monster class of centers in all actuality and he has handled himself well when matched up accordingly.

[Classof06]

Brian Zoubek is an extremely important member of this team and has had a relatively great senior season. But he shouldn't have as many of his shots blocked as he does. It just shouldn't happen. I can't count the amount of times I've yelled "You're [expletive] 7-1!!!" at my television this season.

Simply put, the way Brian is playing this year, if he converted half of his blocked shots, missed layups and stolen balls, Krzyzewski would probably have no choice but to start him. That's how well I believe he's doing everything else right now.

[greybeard]

Many great centers often finished around the rim without dunking, some almost never used it as a power move. They would include Dukies Laetner and Ferry, Ruland, Devoc, McKale, Detroit's Center from ND, Kareem was not a big power dunker, neither was Artis or Bellamy. Wilt loved that finger roll; power forwards who did not dunk are almost too many to mention, but I would begin with Mr. Bird. I'm not sure Elton and Boozer dunk all that much and, to the extent that they do, they are not exactly poster boys, no?

[BD80]

... the way Brian is playing this year, if he converted half of his blocked shots, missed layups and stolen balls, ...

... he would not being the leading offensive rebounder (per minute) in the country.

[tele]

I think dunking is over rated. And no, not just because I can't dunk anymore, I blame that on the large increase in gravity over the last decade or so.

My main concern lately with Zoubek's game is when he takes a charge and falls over backward to the floor. You don't want any one this big doing that, it's just dangerous. I don't think I've ever seen another 7 footer even do it one time, just go for the block and make sure they don't make the field goal.

It would also be nice if he developed a better sense of where his defender is behind him, sometimes he's wide open and could just turn and lay the ball in.

[Greg_Newton]

Actually you prove that your expectations are a bit high and that rankings are indeed a crap shoot.

Eric Boateng was the #3 Center the year prior... Hmmm - what did he turn into?
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2005

Just take a look at those "monster" centers from 2005... Zoubek happened to be a part of a monster class of centers in all actuality and he has handled himself well when matched up accordingly.

I can agree with that rephrasing (I wasn't the OP, btw). I'm not particularly surprised or upset that he didn't quite live up to his ranking, because as you say, rankings are a crapshoot. Many prospects don't, and for every Aldrich (#7 C in 2007) there is an Boateng. But to say that the #7 C in a class isn't expected to do more than be a spot bench contributor at any point in his career is inaccurate, IMO.


I'm not sure Elton and Boozer dunk all that much and, to the extent that they do, they are not exactly poster boys, no?

Disagree - from the last two weeks alone::D

Exhibit A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrNY18lacg0)
Exhibit B (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQRD9hHSIYU&NR=1&feature=fvwp)

[greybeard]

[QUOTE=Greg_Newton;355521]

Disagree - from the last two weeks alone::D

QUOTE]

Cool dunks. Sure hope Boozer makes it through a season for a change. Between him and Brand, you'd think an orthopedist would have one terrific practice even if he had no other patients. Boozer's dunk was not what I'd call a power dunk, nor a dangerous one, since it was apparent that Thabet was not poised to go up and contend. However, if Boozer has not learned to play more safely yet, perhaps after another few months of missed play he will. :rolleyes:

I forget for a second, that guy Wade, he missed more than a little bit of time last season, right? Had what's his name gotten on top of the ball, or come down like that dude did against Kyle, Wade's dunk might have ended up very poorly for him. Foolish, imo, for him to be taking such risks. I like Nash's style myself; much safer, although did you catch the guy's lip lately.

[Mudge]

There are three problems with your logic. First, just because they are listed at the same height desn't mean that Zoubek and Chamberlain really are the same height. Second, there's no reason to assume that they have the same arm length/reach. Body types are not identical, and there is substantial variation in wingspan among people with the same heights. Third, the legend you provide about Chamberlain is almost certainly not true. Nobody in the last ten years (including several 7-footers) posted a standing reach of 10 feet at the draft combine. The highest was 9'8", by a guy who is 7'5". Most topped out at 9'5" or 9'6". For comparison, Hasheem Thabeet (who stood 7'2.5" in shoes) had a standing reach of 9'5":

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=6

So that sort of blows the theory out of the water that Zoubek should be able to simply reach the rim while standing. He's going to have to jump at least a foot to dunk - probably a bit higher.

So we've established that it takes a least a foot of elevation for Zoubek to dunk. Now let's get to the rest of the issue. Zoubek has had several foot surgeries. So those not only have robbed him of leaping ability, but they also mean that he's at a higher risk for future injury. As such, trying to explode off the floor to dunk (which results in a heavy landing on those damaged feet) puts him at greater risk.

It'd be nice if Zoubek could elevate. But between his lack of natural leaping ability and his history of foot injuries, it should be completely understandable why we don't see him dunk very often.

I understand that often, players are not as tall as listed-- but no one seems to contest the idea that Zoubek is a legitimate 7' player-- and quite likely as tall as listed... all I said was that Zoubek is listed at the same height as Chamberlain was. As for the point about wingspan, that's a given-- it might cost Zoubek maybe as much as 2-3 inches in arm length (though I doubt Wilt's arms were some ridiculous length longer [like say 6"] than Zoubek's-- Zoubek is not some Thalidomide victim or alligator offspring). So, at most, I'd be willing to give Wilt maybe an extra couple of inches in static reach.

As for the last point about the apocryphal story, and whether it's true-- I don't know the details of how those measurements are done in the NBA tryouts, but I am betting that those standing reach measurements are done flat-footed-- whereas the story about Wilt (told, I believe, by either Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, or Bill Sharman) said that Wilt yawned and stretched up on his toes (which could easily add 6 inches of height, I would think, on a man of that size, with likely enormous feet), so I still believe Wilt could have done it, if those modern measurements are flat-footed.

I any event, the whole thing is missing the forest for the trees-- there is no excuse (including foot surgeries) that explains Zoubek's disinclination to dunk, as I have seen him do it-- ONCE-- so he can do-- he just chooses not to, at great expense to his offensive productivity and efficiency.

[pfrduke]

I any event, the whole thing is missing the forest for the trees-- there is no excuse (including foot surgeries) that explains Zoubek's disinclination to dunk, as I have seen him do it-- ONCE-- so he can do-- he just chooses not to, at great expense to his offensive productivity and efficiency.

As some posters in this thread have pointed out, given his physical abilities/limitations, it may be that, in fact, more attempted dunks would reduce his offensive efficiency/productivity. I mean, he's already hitting over 61% of his shots - he's pretty darn good at making layups. To my recollection, it's rare that there's a situation in which he would have an easy dunk where he instead tries to lay the ball up and misses. Of his 27 misses on the season, I really doubt there are many of those where attempting a dunk, rather than a layup, would have made the difference between a miss and a make.

Just because the dude can dunk doesn't mean it's the best shot choice for him. He's already a pretty efficient offensive player - as noted, he makes over 60% of his shots and adds ~3.5 offensive rebounds a game, which is the best on the team, even in his limited minutes. He has turnover issues, but I'm not sure that more attempted dunks would cure those.

[Mudge]

This thread is comical. Can we at least admit that it's just a wee bit tougher (even at 7'1") to finish against 6'4" to 6'9" guys who are world class athletes and play well above the rim than guys we are taller than in pick-up? It's just not the same. Not even close. Too many flawed arguements in this thread to count.

This comment is just silly-- the proof is in the fact that Zoubek often chooses not to dunk when not guarded, or only token-guarded by a player who is often a foot shorter than him. The only flawed argument I am seeing is this nonsense about some foot injuries a couple years ago keeping Zoubek from being able to jump to get above the rim-- the guy can get above the rim by getting no more than 6 inches off the floor-- it's not even the height of the average step on a staircase.

[pfrduke]

the proof is in the fact that Zoubek often chooses not to dunk when not guarded, or only token-guarded by a player who is often a foot shorter than him.

The question I would put to you is why does it matter that he dunk when he's unguarded? It's not like he's missing uncontested layups left and right - he's converting those at the same success rate he would if he was dunking. If he's more comfortable laying the ball in, why dunk?

[Mudge]

Funny how you never hear people saying that Laettner should have dunked more.

I think people just say that Z should dunk more because he hesitates so often and will sometimes miss the lay-up.

On the instances when he doesn't hesitate after a rebound and puts it back immediately to score, he looks great. The problem is that he hesitates sometimes. The problem isn't the lack of dunking. The problem is the hesitation.

As for missed lay-ups, a dunk is a harder shot than a lay-up. If you're missing lay-ups, you're going to miss dunks, too.

This is silly too-- I don't want him to dunk because he would look great-- I want him to dunk because it is the high percentage shot with the best chance of scoring, when guarded, and also of drawing the foul, while still making the shot-- this isn't about style points-- it's about getting high shooting percentages, not missing inexcusable chippies, drawing fouls-- and intimidating opposing players and defenses.

There's a reason that Shaq is the career FG % shooting leader in the NBA, and there's a reason that nobody dares stick a hand in the way, when he gets within a few feet of the basket one-on-one, and goes up with blood in his eye-- he'll break your GD arm off, if you do-- I only remember one guy brave enough to challenge Shaq on those kind of moves (Ben Wallace), and he was an incredible physical specimen himself. I know-- you don't have to tell me that Zoubek is not Shaq-- but even lesser mortals are not contested, when they go up with a vengeance, looking to snap the rim off the backboard... you want to keep your wrist and hand bones intact-- then you'd better get out of the way. You notice that nobody on Duke tried to block Booker, when he came in there with a windup, looking to shatter the backboard-- we'll never see that look in Zoubek's eye.

[Mudge]

The question I would put to you is why does it matter that he dunk when he's unguarded? It's not like he's missing uncontested layups left and right - he's converting those at the same success rate he would if he was dunking. If he's more comfortable laying the ball in, why dunk?

Because he does it when he is guarded by much smaller players, or only token guarded-- and he does miss some of the layups-- if he never missed one, then I wouldn't care-- though he still sacrifices the opportunity to draw a foul while still not missing the shot-- he loses a number of 3-point play opportunities, because of his unwillingness to power through a relatively token defensive gesture, dunk the ball with authority, and then be playing with house money for 3 points-- instead of missing the layup, and then bricking the two free throws, as he did the other night against Clemson.

[Mudge]

Zoubek can't dunk.

Yes, he can dunk in drills where he can get a running start. But he simply can't dunk flatfooted. People complain about him bringing the ball down, but that's because he has to gather himself before he can go up for a layup. If he tries to dunk while flatfooted he'd have to gather himself even longer, and hence get blocked/stripped even more frequently.

The reason he goes up for layups is because all things considered, it's his best means to score. Yes some of the layups will rim out, but all things considered that's better than getting stripped more often which can lead to run outs the other way.

He is what he is. Asking why Zoubek can't dunk like Chamberlain is like asking why David McClure can't shoot like JJ Redick.

Again, with a nonsense response that doesn't focus on the essence of my original post-- I didn't say Zoubek should be able to dunk like Wilt-- I am saying that it should be incredibly easy for Zoubek to do it-- like stepping up a stairstep-- and yet he regularly chooses not to do it. Focus on the argument instead of your straw man.

[cato]

Because he does it when he is guarded by much smaller players, or only token guarded-- and he does miss some of the layups-- if he never missed one, then I wouldn't care-- though he still sacrifices the opportunity to draw a foul while still not missing the shot-- he loses a number of 3-point play opportunities, because of his unwillingness to power through a relatively token defensive gesture, dunk the ball with authority, and then be playing with house money for 3 points-- instead of missing the layup, and then bricking the two free throws, as he did the other night against Clemson.

If you really think Z is capable of scoring more by dunking, but is simply unwilling to do so, you need to examine your assumptions.

[pfrduke]

I am saying that it should be incredibly easy for Zoubek to do it-- like stepping up a stairstep-- and yet he regularly chooses not to do it.

I think you're really underestimating the difficulty of making a contested dunk in a game. The ability to dunk in a layup line, or even to throw one down when you're uncontested on a fast break, doesn't mean that when you get the ball three feet from the hoop with a 6'6" guy between you and the basket you can just turn, jump, and dunk on the dude's head.

[Mudge]

If you really think Z is capable of scoring more by dunking, but is simply unwilling to do so, you need to examine your assumptions.

Yes, I do think he can-- he probably has double-digit bunny shots missed this year that he shot off the backboard, that if dunked instead, would have been baskets. As to his reason-- that is the $64,000 question, isn't it? I am speculating that it is a mental block (pun intended), but I am prepared to hear another explanation-- but it needs to be a better one than "his feet still hurt from 2 years ago".

[dyedwab]

Yes, I do think he can-- he probably has double-digit bunny shots missed this year that he shot off the backboard, that if dunked instead, would have been baskets. As to his reason-- that is the $64,000 question, isn't it? I am speculating that it is a mental block (pun intended), but I am prepared to hear another explanation-- but it needs to be a better one than "his feet still hurt from 2 years ago".

No it doesn't. You wrote a post after a great win trashing one of our players. Many people have explained what they believe are plausible theories for why they don't think Zoubek dunks, which you dismiss with a wave a a hand.

I've been a reader of DBR since the parquet floor background, DBR has been my homepage since 1997, and I post infrequently. But I don't think I've EVER been as irritated by a series of posts as the most recent one that just popped up, in which a poster dismisses a fairly serious discussion of why a player plays the way he does, with a blithe "your explanations are too shallow for me."

Mod, if I need to be infracted for this, please go ahead. I don't want to sour the conversation....but this made me angry.

[cascadedevil]

What is obvious is that mere mortals cannot understand the nuanced appreciation that rennaisance man Brian Zoubek has for the finer points of the game. While some will remember the objections to dunking by Coaches Knight and Wooden (anyone else remember the Round Mound of Rebound breaking Knight's no dunking rule at the Olympics try-outs), it is not just Brian's appreciation for the history of the game that causes him to favor the subtle touch off the glass for two. Brian's advanced cognitive function can see the asthetic superiority of the geometric calculating bank, rather than the Hobbesian and undignified slamming of the ball through the basket. Academic superiority still puts Duke ahead of all other Top 25 teams, and for that I say we all should praise the discipline and superior thinking ability of our All ACC Academic Team Big Man. All hail Lord Zoubek. We bow down to your embrace of the pursuit of the essence of beautiful basketball.

[BlueintheFace]

The Zoubeard is a purist

[Exiled_Devil]

Yes, I do think he can-- he probably has double-digit bunny shots missed this year that he shot off the backboard, that if dunked instead, would have been baskets. As to his reason-- that is the $64,000 question, isn't it? I am speculating that it is a mental block (pun intended), but I am prepared to hear another explanation-- but it needs to be a better one than "his feet still hurt from 2 years ago".

Bullocks. Where do you get the idea that a dunk is a higher percentage shot than a layup? Can you give stats on that besides the idea that Shaq never lays it up?

Layups are better shots than dunks. All of our players lay it in more than they dunk. It is pretty clear that this is a team trait. How many dunks did we have in the game at Clemson? Two? Three? How many layups? Singling out Zoub's lack of dunks is a fixation that misses the character of the team.

[greybeard]

Hey, I think Cascadedevil is onto something here.

Actually, I think Zoubek understands and sees the game exceptionally well and noticed it from his freshman year during which I thought he displayed an excellent ability to move to open space after freezing or faking a defender, only to not receive the ball promptly. Then, came the broken feet and the insistence that he catch it with a guy on his back instead of on the move, and now all the weight lifting, all of which I think have hampered his offensive development in some key respects. Nevertheless, he plays excellent interior defense, is an excellent interior passer, is a very effective rebounder and off the ball defender/shot blocker/alterer , and shows an occasional clever move around the rim with the ball. Generally, in the words of Carly Simon, "He's where he should be all the time," and provides a lot of pluses when he's in.

Perhaps most importantly, he plays with a generosity of spirit and intensity that has to inspire his teammates, displaying as much as anyone I have seen the virtues one expects from a Duke basketballer. Ease up, Mudge, we ain't buying it!

Great post Cascadedevil, great!

[Exiled_Devil]

Just to balance my rosey defense of Z, let me pose these questions: Why does he travel so much? And why is he the only person in the ACC to get called for over the back?

I like to blame these on the refs, but acknowledge that they could be due to something else.

[stumps]

Here's my take, and read til the end for a little twist.

Yes, he's a 7 footer. Yes, he can dunk. Great. The question is "Why doesn't he?" To me, it's much more about non-physical attributes, namely attitude and instincts. I'm a huge Z fan. I think he's a great kid, and cheer for him more than just about anyone else. Last time I checked, we don't get many 7 footers. Anyway, he is one of the least instinctual players I have ever seen. Watch him. Every move he makes is so deliberate. That's why he always shot fakes with the ball in the post. It's the move he practices, and the move he is "supposed to make". Watch him when he gets the ball in the high post. He doesn't turn and face, he doesn't hold the ball comfortably, instead he moves it back and forth as if playing keep away from little kids - this isn't bad, it keeps him from getting stripped, but it also doesn't allow him to make plays. But probably more important, I don't think he wants to crush anyone. Another post said that Shaq will break your arm if you try to stop his dunk. Shaq wants to dent your skull with the ball after it slams thru the hoop. Z doesn't have that attitude. He's not that aggressive. Does he play hard? Of course. Does he want to win/score/succeed? Absolutely. Does he fight to rip down rebounds? Yeah, mostly. But he doesn't want to flatten you. This isn't a criticism, but it's my opinion of his mental attitude.

Some time ago, I was attending K's Coaches Clinic. There was a player who was just destroying people. Scoring, rebounding, defense, everything. He was a beast. But for some reason, he wasn't dunking. Or at least not enough to satisfy me. I wanted him to "dent someone's skull", physically dominate with dunks. After practice, I was speaking with Johnny Dawkins. I asked him, why doesn't player X dunk more? His answer - Player X can't, he's not that athletic. (he didn't literally mean "can't", but meant "can't" as much as we would like). Wow. Blown away with that answer. The player - Elton Brand.

[jv001]

Here's my take, and read til the end for a little twist.

Z doesn't have that attitude. He's not that aggressive. Does he play hard? Of course. Does he want to win/score/succeed? Absolutely. Does he fight to rip down rebounds? Yeah, mostly. But he doesn't want to flatten you. This isn't a criticism, but it's my opinion of his mental attitude.

Some time ago, I was attending K's Coaches Clinic. There was a player who was just destroying people. Scoring, rebounding, defense, everything. He was a beast. But for some reason, he wasn't dunking. Or at least not enough to satisfy me. I wanted him to "dent someone's skull", physically dominate with dunks. After practice, I was speaking with Johnny Dawkins. I asked him, why doesn't player X dunk more? His answer - Player X can't, he's not that athletic. (he didn't literally mean "can't", but meant "can't" as much as we would like). Wow. Blown away with that answer. The player - Elton Brand.

And it wasn't as if Elton didn't have the large hands to palm the basketball. He had the largest hands I've ever seen. He just didn't dunk the basketball everytime he had the chance. But what an inside presence. Go Duke!

[greybeard]

Just to balance my rosey defense of Z, let me pose these questions: Why does he travel so much? And why is he the only person in the ACC to get called for over the back?

I like to blame these on the refs, but acknowledge that they could be due to something else.

Z presents this year with a very different body than at anytime in his career. The amount of muscle he has put on is remarkable. I will focus just on his torso. He seems ripped. How to find suppleness through the torso and spine up through the head with all those muscles in a constricted state even when not being consciously moved will GREATLY impede the ability for nuanced action, recapturing balance easily, movement of extremities, movement of the pelvis, and freedom of the head and eyes.

How to recapture that suppleness, get rid of residual tension, and be freer to chose different movements is something that trainers DO NOT WORK on, and probably would not begin to know how to be of help with. Agility drills at high speeds will NOT improve Brian's ability to learn what he needs. It don't work that way. How do I know. The short of it is in your question.

[Mudge]

No it doesn't. You wrote a post after a great win trashing one of our players. Many people have explained what they believe are plausible theories for why they don't think Zoubek dunks, which you dismiss with a wave a a hand.

I've been a reader of DBR since the parquet floor background, DBR has been my homepage since 1997, and I post infrequently. But I don't think I've EVER been as irritated by a series of posts as the most recent one that just popped up, in which a poster dismisses a fairly serious discussion of why a player plays the way he does, with a blithe "your explanations are too shallow for me."

Mod, if I need to be infracted for this, please go ahead. I don't want to sour the conversation....but this made me angry.

I don't dismiss the foolish explanations with a wave of a hand-- I dismiss them with the facts-- which are that, in pre-game, without the onus of having to think about a defender being there, Zoubek dunks with ease (and sometimes, apparently, even with authority-- which he certainly never does in a game)... so the explanations of foot problems, and lack of spring, and inability to dunk do not hold water-- just as the nonsense sideways digressions about whether Zoubek should dunk just like Wilt or whether Zoubek is properly compared to Stoudemire are irrelevant obfuscations that never should have entered the conversation in the first place-- but that's what you get when people either don't have a good explanation for the issue at hand, or, like you, don't like someone bringing up a deficiency in a Duke player. I didn't "trash" Zoubek-- I said he doesn't do the optimal thing in numerous scoring situations, which costs him and Duke points (and thus, possibly, games); I don't care if it's after a big win or big loss, and in fact, it was probably easier to broach the topic after a big win, as it prevents people claiming that I am scapegoating Zoubek, when in fact, this has been an on-going problem for 4 years for him. If you don't like the topic, don't read it-- despite all efforts of the government to encroach on every aspect of American life, you still enjoy free will on what you read on Internet bulletin boards (unlike China, as we know from recent events).

[Mudge]

Bullocks. Where do you get the idea that a dunk is a higher percentage shot than a layup? Can you give stats on that besides the idea that Shaq never lays it up?

Layups are better shots than dunks. All of our players lay it in more than they dunk. It is pretty clear that this is a team trait. How many dunks did we have in the game at Clemson? Two? Three? How many layups? Singling out Zoub's lack of dunks is a fixation that misses the character of the team.

1) Unless you're talking about barbecue, I think the word you want is "Bollocks"...

and
2)Are we seriously going to debate which is higher percentage shot, with more chance of making the basket despite getting fouled in the process of shooting? Are you somehow dismissing the fact that Shaq is virtually unstoppable when shooting a dunk shot, near the basket, whether he gets fouled or not? The fact that Shaq is the highest percentage FG shooter in NBA history is extremely relevant here, and not something that needs to have other facts "besides that idea" supplementing it-- it is central, unavoidable, and inescapable to this argument. Shaq is a relatively poor jump shooter, and yet, despite that, his enormously high success rate on dunk shots around the basket makes him the most efficient shooter in NBA history. Other aggressive dunkers like Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard are also likely to have higher FG percentages than guys forced to shoot layups while guarded.

Booker is a more likely to score down low, within 5 feet of the basket, when guarded by Zoubek than Zoubek is to score when guarded by Booker-- despite Booker giving up over half a foot in height to Zoubek, because Booker goes to the rim aggressively.

This is a Zoubek problem, not a virtue... all other Duke big men- both Plumlees, Singler, and even Thomas will aggressively dunk the ball, given half an opening to the basket, rather than lay it up (as Thomas' embarassing missed dunk and Plumlee's recent reverse dunk ably demonstrated in different ways)-- there is absolutely no preference whatsoever for laying the ball up rather than dunking it among Duke big men, nay, even on the whole team (of regulars), except John Scheyer-- even Nolan Smith dunks the ball at the drop of a hat, given half a chance-- it's simply the highest percentage shot, when the opening is there-- and sometimes even when there is no opening (as Shaq regularly demonstrates.)

[Mudge]

Here's my take, and read til the end for a little twist.

Yes, he's a 7 footer. Yes, he can dunk. Great. The question is "Why doesn't he?" To me, it's much more about non-physical attributes, namely attitude and instincts. I'm a huge Z fan. I think he's a great kid, and cheer for him more than just about anyone else. Last time I checked, we don't get many 7 footers. Anyway, he is one of the least instinctual players I have ever seen. Watch him. Every move he makes is so deliberate. That's why he always shot fakes with the ball in the post. It's the move he practices, and the move he is "supposed to make". Watch him when he gets the ball in the high post. He doesn't turn and face, he doesn't hold the ball comfortably, instead he moves it back and forth as if playing keep away from little kids - this isn't bad, it keeps him from getting stripped, but it also doesn't allow him to make plays. But probably more important, I don't think he wants to crush anyone. Another post said that Shaq will break your arm if you try to stop his dunk. Shaq wants to dent your skull with the ball after it slams thru the hoop. Z doesn't have that attitude. He's not that aggressive. Does he play hard? Of course. Does he want to win/score/succeed? Absolutely. Does he fight to rip down rebounds? Yeah, mostly. But he doesn't want to flatten you. This isn't a criticism, but it's my opinion of his mental attitude.
Some time ago, I was attending K's Coaches Clinic. There was a player who was just destroying people. Scoring, rebounding, defense, everything. He was a beast. But for some reason, he wasn't dunking. Or at least not enough to satisfy me. I wanted him to "dent someone's skull", physically dominate with dunks. After practice, I was speaking with Johnny Dawkins. I asked him, why doesn't player X dunk more? His answer - Player X can't, he's not that athletic. (he didn't literally mean "can't", but meant "can't" as much as we would like). Wow. Blown away with that answer. The player - Elton Brand.

Finally, a explanation that seems like it could hold water-- I have to say that my own private explanation largely correlates with this one. It's about attitude, confidence, and improvisational skills, rather than ability.

As for Brand, he dunked plenty enough for me-- I don't care how many times he did/does it, in an absolute sense-- I want him to do it when the opportunity presents itself, in order to maximize his chances of scoring-- if that's once/game, then fine... if once every 5 minutes, then do that... all I know is that Brand didn't leave points on the table when he got half an opening down low, close to the basket. If the dunk was there, he did it; if not, he did the next best thing.

[Exiled_Devil]

1) Unless you're talking about barbecue, I think the word you want is "Bollocks"...

and
2)Are we seriously going to debate which is higher percentage shot, with more chance of making the basket despite getting fouled in the process of shooting? Are you somehow dismissing the fact that Shaq is virtually unstoppable when shooting a dunk shot, near the basket, whether he gets fouled or not? The fact that Shaq is the highest percentage FG shooter in NBA history is extremely relevant here, and not something that needs to have other facts "besides that idea" supplementing it-- it is central, unavoidable, and inescapable to this argument. Shaq is a relatively poor jump shooter, and yet, despite that, his enormously high success rate on dunk shots around the basket makes him the most efficient shooter in NBA history. Other aggressive dunkers like Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard are also likely to have higher FG percentages than guys forced to shoot layups while guarded.

Booker is a more likely to score down low, within 5 feet of the basket, when guarded by Zoubek than Zoubek is to score when guarded by Booker-- despite Booker giving up over half a foot in height to Zoubek, because Booker goes to the rim aggressively.

This is a Zoubek problem, not a virtue... all other Duke big men- both Plumlees, Singler, and even Thomas will aggressively dunk the ball, given half an opening to the basket, rather than lay it up (as Thomas' embarassing missed dunk and Plumlee's recent reverse dunk ably demonstrated in different ways)-- there is absolutely no preference whatsoever for laying the ball up rather than dunking it among Duke big men, nay, even on the whole team (of regulars), except John Scheyer-- even Nolan Smith dunks the ball at the drop of a hat, given half a chance-- it's simply the highest percentage shot, when the opening is there-- and sometimes even when there is no opening (as Shaq regularly demonstrates.)

I don't know what Duke Basketball team you watch, but no one on our team dunks "given half and opening to the basket". We are a very conservative team around the rim. Your seeing things differently in regard to the team.

And you need more than "Shaq dunks a lot, and has the NBA FG% record, so the dunk is the highest percentage shot". It's a weak argument, and a false conclusion.

In fact, about 2 minutes of google research shows that your first point is patently wrong. All time FG% record (http://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_fieldgoals.html) - Career: .599 -Artis Gilmore; Season - .727-Wilt Chamberlain, Los Angeles, 1972-73.

This season (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/FieldGS.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=), Shaq is #13.

[Mudge]

I don't know what Duke Basketball team you watch, but no one on our team dunks "given half and opening to the basket". We are a very conservative team around the rim. Your seeing things differently in regard to the team.

And you need more than "Shaq dunks a lot, and has the NBA FG% record, so the dunk is the highest percentage shot". It's a weak argument, and a false conclusion.
In fact, about 2 minutes of google research shows that your first point is patently wrong. All time FG% record (http://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_fieldgoals.html) - Career: .599 -Artis Gilmore; Season - .727-Wilt Chamberlain, Los Angeles, 1972-73.

This season (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/FieldGS.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=), Shaq is #13.
You are delusional-- the Plumlee brothers try to tear the rim off the backboard every chance they get, as did Thomas the other night against Clemson-- it's what Zoubek should be doing, too-- I don't know what you're watching, but this argument is getting pointless, because you obviously aren't watching the same games/players that most everybody else is watching.

And No, the point is not "patently wrong", but rather slightly wrong-- I wrote based off of memory of who had led the league in FG shooting % most of the time in recent years-- another (predominantly dunk-shooting) center, Artis Gilmore leads the all-time stats, with Shaq third all-time (behind a center Mark West, who virtually only shot if he had a dunk, or else did not shoot most of the time, as he was a defensive specialist only, like Ben Wallace). Nor is it a weak argument, nor is it a false conclusion... Here are the career leaders:
Artis Gilmore 5,732 9,570 .599
Mark West 2,528 4,356 .580
Shaquille O'Neal 8,670 15,020 .577
Steve Johnson 2,841 4,965 .572
Darryl Dawkins 3,477 6,079 .572
James Donaldson 3,105 5,442 .571

Of these, Gilmore had a nice hook shot, but still shot an awful lot of dunks, West virtually only shot dunks, Johnson was a small anomaly, as he was a high % shooter on a variety of shots, and Dawkins was the Shaq prototype, with Donaldson being another predominantly dunk shooter. This list only reinforces the point that large, powerful dunk shooters have the highest shooting percentages in NBA history. Shaq has played nearly twice as long in the NBA, and shot nearly twice as much the next closest guy on the list, Gilmore, and yet he still has a shooting percentage better than all but really one guy, Gilmore.


Here are the stats for the NBA league leader in FG % for Shaq's first ~decade in the NBA:
1994 Shaquille O'Neal, Orl .599
1995 Chris Gatling, G.St .633
1996 Gheorghe Muresan, Wash .584
1997 Gheorghe Muresan, Wash .604
1998 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .584
1999 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .576
2000 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .574
2001 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .572
2002 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .579
2003 Eddy Curry,Chi .585
2004 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL .584

The only guys besides Shaq on this list are Curry (mostly shoots dunks), Muresan (7'7"-- what do you think he shot, the few times he shot?), and Gatling, who is the only (slight) anomaly on the list.

[dyedwab]

I don't dismiss the foolish explanations with a wave of a hand-- I dismiss them with the facts-- which are that, in pre-game, without the onus of having to think about a defender being there, Zoubek dunks with ease (and sometimes, apparently, even with authority-- which he certainly never does in a game)... so the explanations of foot problems, and lack of spring, and inability to dunk do not hold water-- just as the nonsense sideways digressions about whether Zoubek should dunk just like Wilt or whether Zoubek is properly compared to Stoudemire are irrelevant obfuscations that never should have entered the conversation in the first place-- but that's what you get when people either don't have a good explanation for the issue at hand, or, like you, don't like someone bringing up a deficiency in a Duke player. I didn't "trash" Zoubek-- I said he doesn't do the optimal thing in numerous scoring situations, which costs him and Duke points (and thus, possibly, games); I don't care if it's after a big win or big loss, and in fact, it was probably easier to broach the topic after a big win, as it prevents people claiming that I am scapegoating Zoubek, when in fact, this has been an on-going problem for 4 years for him. If you don't like the topic, don't read it-- despite all efforts of the government to encroach on every aspect of American life, you still enjoy free will on what you read on Internet bulletin boards (unlike China, as we know from recent events).

When the only explanation one accepts is the one he himself comes up with, it is a blithe wave of the hand dismissing of other opinions.

Others have better and more plausible explanation than you do. They are more reasoned, more thoughtful, and more respecting of the evidence in front of them.

Oh, and it isn't heroic to trash a guy after a win, just like it isn't heroic to trash a a guy after a loss.

....and whenever someone goes to the "Don't read if you don't like, this isn't China", you know they have nothing more intelligent to say....

now where's that "ignore" button.....:-)

[Kedsy]

Muresan (7'7"-- what do you think he shot, the few times he shot?)

You ever see Muresan play? My guess is he didn't dunk as often as you think he did.

[Exiled_Devil]

You are delusional-- the Plumlee brothers try to tear the rim off the backboard every chance they get, as did Thomas the other night against Clemson-- it's what Zoubek should be doing, too-- I don't know what you're watching, but this argument is getting pointless, because you obviously aren't watching the same games/players that most everybody else is watching.
.

NO. I'm watching the game (Clemson) where we had a top 5 plays from the Basketball staff and only one was a dunk - and it was as gentle as a lay up.

And you need to watch the Plumlees during games more often, rather than just highlight reels, especially Myles. They lay it in all the time. And so does Lance.

You're romanticizing the dunk, which is fine, because tons of players and coaches do as well. Our team passes up tons of dunks, which I understand is due to the coaching staff preferring the lay up for its higher percentage and less problematic consequences when they miss.

[devildownunder]

for what its worth, Zoubek has no problem dunking in layup lines, and does so easily, getting above the rim and throwing the ball down through the hoop.

Its not an issue of can/can't, its a question of confidence.


If it's true he dunks in layup lines, then you're right, it's a question of mindset. Personally, I have less problem with the lack of dunks than I do with the fact that he brings the ball down so often. He's 7 feet tall. Most teams don't even have a legit 6'10" guy. If he just keeps the ball up over his head when he grabs a rebound close to the basket and goes straight back up, he'll almost always draw a foul if someone challenges the shot. He would have to draw a foul. How could anyone contest the shot w/out body contact under those circumstances?

[devildownunder]

Bullocks. Where do you get the idea that a dunk is a higher percentage shot than a layup? Can you give stats on that besides the idea that Shaq never lays it up?

Layups are better shots than dunks. All of our players lay it in more than they dunk. It is pretty clear that this is a team trait. How many dunks did we have in the game at Clemson? Two? Three? How many layups? Singling out Zoub's lack of dunks is a fixation that misses the character of the team.

I'm not siding w/the "Zoubek needs to throw it down all the time crew" here but "layups are better shots than dunks"? How do you figure that? Any shot fired from above the basket -- all things being equal -- is higher percentage than one fired from below the rim. That's why raising the rim lowers shooting percentages.

[devildownunder]

NO. Our team passes up tons of dunks, which I understand is due to the coaching staff preferring the lay up for its higher percentage and less problematic consequences when they miss.

When exactly are we passing up all these dunks? This is not something I've witnessed.

[duke09hms]

Yes dunks are extremely high-percentage shots, and they serve a dual purpose of intimidation and breaking down a team. Dunks also serve to rev up the crowd when playing at home or to silence a crowd when away.

All teams try to dunk as much as possible or would like to at least.

The two Wake Forest games in Cameron this year and last year serve as very salient examples. For some reason, I doubt the Crazies would have been louder than they were at the UNC game w/o Elliot and G throwing down those nasty dunks. Without Miles and Mason dunking everything this year against Wake, maybe we don't win the mental and physical battle down low.

Bottom line - the value of a dunk is greater than that of a layup due to higher percentages and intangibles. No team willingly passes up a dunk for a layup.

[ReformedAggie]

can't we just be happy that Z has improved so much and is trying to the best of his ability?

[Exiled_Devil]

When exactly are we passing up all these dunks? This is not something I've witnessed.

small video collection: [Edit: Very small, because people don't post videos of layups]

Henderson not dunking when he clearly could (http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/henderson-saves-the-day-for-duke/F39Y5c727wKcZSxE_Fp2Bg)

Highlights, so dunks are well represented, but many layups when a dunk was possible. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BmqdRSNZOg) 2:11 is a good example of why dunks are NOT a better shot.



In our game against Wake that people are citing (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300170150), we took 31 layups and 4 dunks. You can argue the merits of each individual layup/dunk, but the likelihood that out of 35 shots near the basket only 4 were possible to dunk is a bit much. I know we are unathletic ;), but we're not that unathletic.

Look, my argument is twofold: first, our team doesn't dunk as much as it could. It's not an issue with Zoub, its a team philosophy. We remember more dunks than layups, but the layup happens a lot more for our team, even when a dunk is an option.

Second, the idea that 'the dunk is the highest percentage shot' is just folk wisdom, and Ihave not seen anything to substantiate it beyond the argument that Shaq dunks a lot and he is/was the NBA leader in FG%. That point is a sample of 1 and is consequently not substantial enough to argue the case for the dunk universally. I tried to find some data either way, and all I found are people declaring the dunk the highest percentage shot like the Helms Foundation gave it a banner.

The dunk is romanticized - fetishized, even - but to argue for why someone who is producing better than he has in 4 years of college after a game we won and he played great in because of that fetish is just silly. I can't argue that I don't like to see dunks, but to complain about a lack of dunking misses the point of the game.

[Indoor66]

can't we just be happy that Z has improved so much and is trying to the best of his ability?

Absolutely not! If they don't do the nasty and dunk all the time, they are no good. The dunk is the best play in basketball - the only way to intimidate, rev up the crowd and win games. Don't you understand? A nasty dunk is worth 6 points - two on the score board and four for style. It is not how you feel, it is how you look. :rolleyes:;)

[Boston Dukie]

Zoubek is not very athletic (under statement), lacks confidence, and lacks offensive fluidity (maybe from injury, maybe not)

That is why he doesn't dunk

Is the dunk the best shot in bball? Doesn't matter

What matters is that post players who are athletic, skilled and aggressive do it a lot. Zoubek is none of those things, and that is the real problem, not whether he dunks or not

[Kedsy]

No team willingly passes up a dunk for a layup.

I didn't want to get involved in this debate, but this statement simply isn't true. For those who can dunk as easily as you and I can flip channels on the TV remote, in other words when the dunk is almost effortless, then, yes, it is a higher percentage shot and isn't (and shouldn't be) passed up for a layup.

For most college players, however, a dunk takes a lot more effort than a layup, and a dunk with a defender nearby takes even more effort. For guys who can't touch the top of the backboard, it takes longer to get the dunk up and the likelihood of missing a contested dunk is high. In those situations, the nearly effortless layup is a higher percentage shot and rarely should be passed up for a dunk.

[94duke]

I didn't want to get involved in this debate, but this statement simply isn't true. For those who can dunk as easily as you and I can flip channels on the TV remote, in other words when the dunk is almost effortless, then, yes, it is a higher percentage shot and isn't (and shouldn't be) passed up for a layup.

For most college players, however, a dunk takes a lot more effort than a layup, and a dunk with a defender nearby takes even more effort. For guys who can't touch the top of the backboard, it takes longer to get the dunk up and the likelihood of missing a contested dunk is high. In those situations, the nearly effortless layup is a higher percentage shot and rarely should be passed up for a dunk.

Well said!

[SupaDave]

Absolutely not! If they don't do the nasty and dunk all the time, they are no good. The dunk is the best play in basketball - the only way to intimidate, rev up the crowd and win games. Don't you understand? A nasty dunk is worth 6 points - two on the score board and four for style. It is not how you feel, it is how you look. :rolleyes:;)

Exactly!!! I mean we all know that Harold Minor and Kenny Skywalker were two of the greatest basketball players to ever hit the court. I think Minor averaged 65 points a game - all on dunks!!! (he was even allowed to dunk his free throws)

Bottom line - after reading through this thread and seeing many logical explanations I like to look at like this...

I hoop - A LOT - and while waiting on downs to play and viewing the current game every now and then a tall player will get on the court and want to do inexplically UN-tall things like shoot threes, hover on the perimeter, or shy away from contact down low.

And without fail someone will say "God couldn't have blessed me with that height - I'd be a monster" and then there will be a chorus of "yep, me too!" but the reality is that most of us have no idea what we'd do with all that height or understand it's limitations.

Dunking might make the crowd get hype but it also increases the risk for injury, takes more energy, and still only counts for two points.

I'd prefer a thread that wondered why Zoubs doesn't get more "and 1's" and why refs are so inconsistent with their big man officiating as demonstrated on NC State's Tracy Smith last night.

[Houston]

I would rather compliment a player who has worked very hard for four years and is an integral part of a top 10 team than needlessly wonder about the lack of dunks. The player who excites the crowd rocking the rim in summer league games but can not get on the court during the regular season does not help the team.

[Kedsy]

The player who excites the crowd rocking the rim in summer league games but can not get on the court during the regular season does not help the team.

And then he transfers.

[NSDukeFan]

And then he transfers.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Neals384]

Wish I had a nickel for every time someone missed a dunk. And another nickel for every time someone missed a dunk because they were fouled on the way up - I claim a layup has a better chance of going in for a 3 point play.

As a test, I'm going to count dunks & layups by both teams tonight. One game won't prove anything, I know...

[DUKIE V(A)]

[QUOTE=Mudge;355976]I don't dismiss the foolish explanations with a wave of a hand-- I dismiss them with the facts-- which are that, in pre-game, without the onus of having to think about a defender being there, Zoubek dunks with ease (and sometimes, apparently, even with authority-- which he certainly never does in a game)... QUOTE]

Without the onus of having to "think" about a defender being there, or without the onus of one if not several strong, quick, athletic defenders being there...Big difference...

[Exiled_Devil]

Wish I had a nickel for every time someone missed a dunk. And another nickel for every time someone missed a dunk because they were fouled on the way up - I claim a layup has a better chance of going in for a 3 point play.

As a test, I'm going to count dunks & layups by both teams tonight. One game won't prove anything, I know...

You can look at the play-by-play on ESPN fr previous games. That's what I did for the Wake game. It doesn't allow for judging whether a dunk was viable, but does give a clear count of dunks vs layups.

[greybeard]

Zoubek is not very athletic (under statement), lacks confidence, and lacks offensive fluidity (maybe from injury, maybe not)

That is why he doesn't dunk

Is the dunk the best shot in bball? Doesn't matter

What matters is that post players who are athletic, skilled and aggressive do it a lot. Zoubek is none of those things, and that is the real problem, not whether he dunks or not

Z is perhaps the most aggressive player on the floor. The only thing that he is not aggressive about is trying to score the ball. McClure wasn't either.

I'd bet Z's among the strongest players on the team, if not the strongest. He is the best shot blocker (a skill?) He is the best shot intimidator (a skill?) He shoots among the highest percentage (a skill?). At least last year, he was over an 80 percent foul shooter (a skill)?

Is he awkward in some of his movements, yes. Does that detract from his current ability to present and perform athletically? Yes. In my view, he has regressed in his ability to create since his freshman year. The foot injuries, the new added muscle, and, perhaps too many people giving him too many "how to" directions, causing "paralysis by analysis" which you see on the golf ranges every day by people taking "how to" lessons once a week.

The guy plays all out and looks to contribute on offense in many different ways, some of which are very, very effective. And, while I am not a fan of post up receptions where defender and offensive player are fighting for position, you have to think that all that wrestling that he does with other bigs has to be tiring some people out. He often beats these guys to the boards and if he scores on 50 percent of his putbacks that REALLY HURTS THE OTHER TEAM and is FOUND MONEY FOR DUKE.

[dukelifer]

Last night, with game on the line, a KY kid had a wide open steal and tried a half-dunk - half lay in over the rim and missed the shot and SC got the ball back. If he had simply used a lay up - it was two points and would have put huge game pressure on SC. He missed it - SC scored and eventually that was ball game. The key is to make the shot. While a made dunk will fire a crowd- a missed dunk is the worst play in basketball and sometimes can turn a ball game.

[NSDukeFan]

He often beats these guys to the boards and if he scores on 50 percent of his putbacks that REALLY HURTS THE OTHER TEAM and is FOUND MONEY FOR DUKE.

I think this is one reason I am less critical of Zoubek not hitting every shot, or occasionally traveling, or getting blocked. In a lot of these instances, he created the extra possession in the first place by his great offensive rebounding. If he we get nothing out of it, we are no further down, but whatever we do get is a bonus (nice when you have a 60% shooter often taking the shot as well.)

[Greg_Newton]

I'd bet Z's among the strongest players on the team, if not the strongest. He is the best shot blocker (a skill?) He is the best shot intimidator (a skill?) He shoots among the highest percentage (a skill?). At least last year, he was over an 80 percent foul shooter (a skill)?.

Huh? I wouldn't say he's better than the fourth or fifth best shotblocker on the team, which the numbers would support: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=150&sort=avgBlocks

Also, I have no problem with Zoubek's finishing, but these arguments against dunks are getting kind of ridiculous. Dunks are the highest percentage shot in the game. Yes, I am aware people have pointed out token examples of missed dunks... and I could point out 100 missed layups for every one.

Second, dunks are by far the strongest way for a big man to finish, and the hardest shot to block. By definition, a layup floats upward in the air, so by nature they are vulnerable once they are released. The only way to block a dunk, on the other hand, is to force the ball out of the shooter's hand, which is much harder to do (especially without fouling). Also, you need touch on layups, so you can't grip the ball quite as forcefully. There a million reasons why a dunk is a stronger finish.

And are people really going to completely dismiss the psychological impact of a monster dunk? I suggest rewatching the 2009 game in Littlejohn if so.

The bottom line, IMO, is that a dunk is just not a reliable way for Z to finish because he cannot consistently get both wrists above the rim off of a quick vertical jump. Given that, he's learned to use the glass very effectively. Not sure where this big dunking debate came from.

[greybeard]

Huh? I wouldn't say he's better than the fourth or fifth best shotblocker on the team, which the numbers would support: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=150&sort=avgBlocks

Also, I have no problem with Zoubek's finishing, but these arguments against dunks are getting kind of ridiculous. Dunks are the highest percentage shot in the game. Yes, I am aware people have pointed out token examples of missed dunks... and I could point out 100 missed layups for every one.

Second, dunks are by far the strongest way for a big man to finish, and the hardest shot to block. By definition, a layup floats upward in the air, so by nature they are vulnerable once they are released. The only way to block a dunk, on the other hand, is to force the ball out of the shooter's hand, which is much harder to do (especially without fouling). Also, you need touch on layups, so you can't grip the ball quite as forcefully. There a million reasons why a dunk is a stronger finish.

And are people really going to completely dismiss the psychological impact of a monster dunk? I suggest rewatching the 2009 game in Littlejohn if so.

The bottom line, IMO, is that a dunk is just not a reliable way for Z to finish because he cannot consistently get both wrists above the rim off of a quick vertical jump. Given that, he's learned to use the glass very effectively. Not sure where this big dunking debate came from.

Either you are calling Z and his coaches stupid or it is not the highest percentage shot for Z. Whether it is the highest percentage shot for someone else is shall we say not relevant here. Whether it causes wear and tear on knees, ankles, feet, backs, etc, that cause people to perform less well in other aspects of the game or keep them out entirely is beyond our knowing. However, to a certain extent, I do not see how it can be otherwise.

How many players Z's freshman and sophomore years were either out with or severally hampered by concussive/twist-caused injuries. Might have cost Duke a real run, certainly Z's freshman year, and cost guys in their careers--see Paulis.

Z is a terrific shot blocking presence in the middle--the best that Duke has, whether he leads in actual blocks or not. If a guy don't shoot it, or pulls up instead of taking it all the way, that don't count? There is gathering facts to make a valid point and then gathering facts to win whatever the merits. I think you're doing a little too much of the latter.

[Greg_Newton]

Either you are calling Z and his coaches stupid or it is not the highest percentage shot for Z. Whether it is the highest percentage shot for someone else is shall we say not relevant here. Whether it causes wear and tear on knees, ankles, feet, backs, etc, that cause people to perform less well in other aspects of the game or keep them out entirely is beyond our knowing. However, to a certain extent, I do not see how it can be otherwise.

How many players Z's freshman and sophomore years were either out with or severally hampered by concussive/twist-caused injuries. Might have cost Duke a real run, certainly Z's freshman year, and cost guys in their careers--see Paulis.

Z is a terrific shot blocking presence in the middle--the best that Duke has, whether he leads in actual blocks or not. If a guy don't shoot it, or pulls up instead of taking it all the way, that don't count? There is gathering facts to make a valid point and then gathering facts to win whatever the merits. I think you're doing a little too much of the latter.

:confused: I quite clearly said I had no problem with how Z finishes, and that finishing with a dunk is not a viable option given his physical limitations. I'm not sure what your wear-and-tear point is, besides that jumping high can be damaging over time.

My point is that statements like "Layups are better shots than dunks" (made earlier in this thread) are just not true, all things equal. Some seem to think that the dunk is a non-functional shot and that its sole purpose is showboating, which I have argued is incorrect.

And I fail to see how referencing actual blocked shot numbers to dispute Z being the best shotblocker on the team is a questionable tactic. Either way, do you really think players are more scared of Z blocking their shot than Miles? If we're going by the eye test, there have been countless times this season where I've noticed players pull up early or doublepump because they noticed Miles/Mason rotating over. I've even posted this exact sentiment.

I love Z, but IMO some of this is a little much...

[pfrduke]

My point is that statements like "Layups are better shots than dunks" (made earlier in this thread) are just not true, all things equal. Some seem to think that the dunk is a non-functional shot and that its sole purpose is showboating, which I have argued is incorrect.

I am in no way an anti-dunk person, but there are plenty of situations during game play where the degree of difficulty in an attempted dunk is higher than the degree of difficulty for a layup.

Where the relative ease is the same, clearly a dunk is a better shot, and the one less likely to be missed (although I don't think I'd ever say that a layup in such circumstances is a bad shot). But there are a lot of situations in a game where the relative ease of a layup is much higher than an attempted dunk. I think this is especially the case for Zoubek, since regardless of what he shows in layup lines, during the games (on the offensive and defensive sides of the ball) he does not jump around the court a lot - he uses his length and positioning more than his vertical.

[greybeard]

:confused: I quite clearly said I had no problem with how Z finishes, and that finishing with a dunk is not a viable option given his physical limitations. I'm not sure what your wear-and-tear point is, besides that jumping high can be damaging over time.

My point is that statements like "Layups are better shots than dunks" (made earlier in this thread) are just not true, all things equal. Some seem to think that the dunk is a non-functional shot and that its sole purpose is showboating, which I have argued is incorrect.

And I fail to see how referencing actual blocked shot numbers to dispute Z being the best shotblocker on the team is a questionable tactic. Either way, do you really think players are more scared of Z blocking their shot than Miles? If we're going by the eye test, there have been countless times this season where I've noticed players pull up early or doublepump because they noticed Miles/Mason rotating over. I've even posted this exact sentiment.

I love Z, but IMO some of this is a little much...

This is a column about Z and your suggestion that he is somehow deficient in his game because he does not dunk is pure nonsense. I named any number of bigs who did powerfully little dunking some, McKale, Devas, Walton, etc, if any at all.

The dunk more often than not is a show off play that more often than not delays the game by hanging on the rim, and is accompanied by any manner of narcissistic displays that undermine the notion that this is a team game in which the opponent is to be respected. The number of instances where players do not get away with a violation, a walk, palm, hanging on the rim (not because there is someone under them) where a dunk actually is a better finish than a layin I believe is comparatively slight and serve mostly to take the best play in the game, the finish against a shot blocker out of the game.

You say wear and tear like it is a meaningless nothing. How come in this age of ever better trained stronger athletes there are ever more knee, ankle, foot, stress fracture injuries? How come? Stress fractures now Greg, why?

I think Nash finishes as well as anyone in the league around the rim; so did McKale; so did Divas. I happen to think that Smith finishes better now in traffic when he finishes with a move instead of a dunk. I think that Hansbrough did also.

I wonder what Oden thought he was doing by dunking and hanging on the rim, bringing his knees way up and then alighting on the ground. Did it contribute to his on-going problems? Ditto for Amarie. Both these guys are IN FOR IT BIG TIME, probably by the time they are in their early 40s. Hip replacements work pretty well; knee replacements not so much. The number of people with different length legs after the latter astounds. "Wear and tear," you make the body sound like a pair of genes.

Miles has shown me some stealth in his shot blocking but I do not think that people come anywhere near avoiding him the way they do Z. Mason might block a shot but needs to commit so much to do it that I do not see that being a major focus of his game. As an off and on the ball shot blocker, Z is excellent. If you say Miles is more excellent, okay. Z still has skills that you don't count because they don't go splash. You seem more in love with the splash or just your argument than with the game. That's okay, but forgive the rest of us for disagreeing.

[Greg_Newton]

I am in no way an anti-dunk person, but there are plenty of situations during game play where the degree of difficulty in an attempted dunk is higher than the degree of difficulty for a layup.

Where the relative ease is the same, clearly a dunk is a better shot, and the one less likely to be missed (although I don't think I'd ever say that a layup in such circumstances is a bad shot). But there are a lot of situations in a game where the relative ease of a layup is much higher than an attempted dunk. I think this is especially the case for Zoubek, since regardless of what he shows in layup lines, during the games (on the offensive and defensive sides of the ball) he does not jump around the court a lot - he uses his length and positioning more than his vertical.

Certainly agree with this. Perhaps I should revise my argument to "dunks are better shots than layups given that your jump has put you in a position to bump your wrists against the rim". Zoubek would need to bring the ball down and take about twice as long to jump in order to get himself in this position, which is why I agree it's better for him to go for the Jamisonesque quick-off-the-glass putback.


This is a column about Z and your suggestion that he is somehow deficient in his game because he does not dunk is pure nonsense.

Good lord... please stop putting words in my mouth. For the third time, I have never said anything REMOTELY resembling this. Furthermore, I am not the one that initiated the discussion on the merits of dunking in general, I just responded to it.


You say wear and tear like it is a meaningless nothing.

Again, no, I don't. I said I didn't see how it applied to whether the dunk is a functional shot. Look, I get it. You do not like the showboating of the modern game, and you think that players pulling themselves up and swinging their legs high after dunking contributes to injury. That's fine; sounds reasonable to me. But that's a separate issue than whether the dunk itself is a functional shot. "Dunking" is simply throwing the ball directly down through the rim - when exactly did I say it was advantageous to swing your legs around afterward like Lawal or taunt like Booker?


Miles has shown me some stealth in his shot blocking but I do not think that people come anywhere near avoiding him the way they do Z. Mason might block a shot but needs to commit so much to do it that I do not see that being a major focus of his game. As an off and on the ball shot blocker, Z is excellent. If you say Miles is more excellent, okay.

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. In the games I've been watching, the Plumlees are much better shot-blockers while Z is much better at rotating to the correct spot. He will sometimes get a block at the release point due to being in good position... and will just as often get a foul on the release because he lets his arms drop to a 45-degree angle before the defender even elevates for his shot.


Z still has skills that you don't count because they don't go splash. You seem more in love with the splash or just your argument than with the game. That's okay, but forgive the rest of us for disagreeing.

Mature of you to attack me personally rather than responding to my actual argument. For the LAST TIME, I'm a big Zoubek fan. If I was K, I'd lock Miles and Mason in the tape room and tell them to watch nothing but what Z does every time one of our guards elevates for a jump shot.

So, please stop acting like you know me based on the fact that I don't hate the dunk shot and that I disagreed with your subjective and unfounded claim that Zoubek is the team's best shotblocker when he is statistically the fifth.

[Mudge]

When the only explanation one accepts is the one he himself comes up with, it is a blithe wave of the hand dismissing of other opinions.

Others have better and more plausible explanation than you do. They are more reasoned, more thoughtful, and more respecting of the evidence in front of them.
Oh, and it isn't heroic to trash a guy after a win, just like it isn't heroic to trash a a guy after a loss.

....and whenever someone goes to the "Don't read if you don't like, this isn't China", you know they have nothing more intelligent to say....

now where's that "ignore" button.....:-)

Didn't ever say it was "heroic"... if you think those silly explanations are more plausible, reasonable, or thoughtful, believe what you want, ignore what you want-- ignorance is bliss.

[Mudge]

NO. I'm watching the game (Clemson) where we had a top 5 plays from the Basketball staff and only one was a dunk - and it was as gentle as a lay up.

And you need to watch the Plumlees during games more often, rather than just highlight reels, especially Myles. They lay it in all the time. And so does Lance.

You're romanticizing the dunk, which is fine, because tons of players and coaches do as well. Our team passes up tons of dunks, which I understand is due to the coaching staff preferring the lay up for its higher percentage and less problematic consequences when they miss.

I watch every game not confined to the infernal Raycom Jefferson network, and the big players on this team (even Singler, with a very sore wrist from a terrible fall several days before) do not pass up dunks-- except Zoubek... the Plumlees dunk every time they have the chance. Thomas, while far from ideal (he often gets stripped on the way up, making dunks less feasible), still will try to dunk if unguarded or lightly guarded, rather than shoot a layup-- as he proved, when he missed an aggressive attempt against Clemson.

I don't care about romance- I care about offensive proficiency, and there is absolutely nothing to recommend the layup over the dunk for accuracy, if a player is easily capable of either. The layup introduces two or more rebounds of the ball (first off the backboard, then, usually, off the rim, before going through), each of which can result in the ball bouncing off, rather than through the rim-- the dunk involves neither, if done properly-- and also makes blocking the shot infinitely harder-- especially if done with great speed, strength, and aggression, as Shaq, Booker, and most other fierce dunkers execute the shot.

[greybeard]

Look Greg, your insistence that a dunk is a better shot makes no sense if it risks putting players out--see Smith last year and his back and Singler this year when he got put down in GT game. Second, if Z cannot make a play that is better than the one he can make, he is deficient. I disagree with your premise and submit that you cannot disown the conclusion that logically flows from it--that having a dunker at the center position is better than having a non dunker. I say tell that to Walton and McKale.

I say also that dunking is neither better nor more reliable; it is just showier, in the vast majority of cases. In the others, it ruins the best play in basketball, a challenge at the rim, and replaces it with no challenge at all or one that is far too dangerous a play to permit (see examples above).

BTW, for all his dunks, the one shot Dr. J makes the most money from and was a layup. And that change of hands move my MJ; you've seen that a few times. And, nobody, I mean nobody, went to the rim and finished like Elgin.

Coming down from a dunk, by definition creates greater force into the body than a lesser jump, and is much more likely to throw a body off kilter on the landing, whether you hang on the rim or not, which incidently either slows down the game or puts you out of position against runouts.

So why do coaches encourage them. They sell shoes and TV contracts, and star players want to do em because it sells them. BT Barnum, my man, that's the list.

[pfrduke]

I watch every game not confined to the infernal Raycom Jefferson network, and the big players on this team (even Singler, with a very sore wrist from a terrible fall several days before) do not pass up dunks-- except Zoubek... the Plumlees dunk every time they have the chance. Thomas, while far from ideal (he often gets stripped on the way up, making dunks less feasible), still will try to dunk if unguarded or lightly guarded, rather than shoot a layup-- as he proved, when he missed an aggressive attempt against Clemson.

I don't care about romance- I care about offensive proficiency, and there is absolutely nothing to recommend the layup over the dunk for accuracy, if a player is easily capable of either. The layup introduces two or more rebounds of the ball (first off the backboard, then, usually, off the rim, before going through), each of which can result in the ball bouncing off, rather than through the rim-- the dunk involves neither, if done properly-- and also makes blocking the shot infinitely harder-- especially if done with great speed, strength, and aggression, as Shaq, Booker, and most other fierce dunkers execute the shot.

A couple related points. First, the ease of a dunk is player-specific. Despite the fact that Zoubek is 7'1", I think the dunk is not quite as easy a shot for him as you think it is, for the reason that Greg pointed out above - it takes him a long time to gather and elevate, and that's time during which the defense can react and get into position to contest a shot. The Plumlees are springy guys - they get up in the air for blocks, rebounds, and dunks with relatively minimal effort. Zoubek is not a springy guy; ignoring the offensive end, watch him play defense. He defends and boxes out through size and position, not vertical jumps. He's no less explosive on the offensive end than he is on the defensive end.

Second, you note that your primary concern is offensive proficiency. Given the point above - that the time it takes Zoubek to gather in order to go up strong to dunk allows the defense to be in a better position to contest his shot - I think that far more often than not the layup is the more proficient shot for him to attempt. He has developed a very quick release off of offensive rebounds - a release that I don't think he could get as quickly if he tried to go up and dunk on hit put-back attempts. Interestingly, you suggest that Lance often gets stripped when (in your perception) he is driving hard to the goal to get a dunk. It's entirely plausible that if his end-goal was a layup, his drives would be more controlled, leading to fewer turnovers and more shot opportunities.

As I said above, I'm not in any way anti-dunk. But the steps necessary to put a player in position to dunk the ball are not always the smartest steps for a player to take during game play. I don't think guys should always be looking to dunk just because it's possible that they can throw down; I think they should look to dunk when, all things considered, the ease with which they can dunk is greater than the ease with which they could make a layup.

Finally, I know you've given the back of the hand to injury concerns, at least in terms of hampering his physical ability to dunk, but I will add this - the way Zoubek plays is a lot easier on his joints and feet than if he were leaping all over the floor all the time. He has very little stress impact from returning to the ground after 3-4 foot jumps because he simply doesn't jump that high. After the injuries he's suffered, it's entirely possible he's modified his style of play to reduce the risk of reinjury and the stress on his feet.

[-jk]

This one's going in circles. I think it's done.

-jk