Hope Andre gets back into the flow of things...

[Lord Ash]

I've been a bit disappointed that Andre Dawkins has really not gotten much playing time recently, or played well when he did. I never really expected him to get many minutes against a pressing team like Clemson given that he is not the strongest dribbler or defender, and is a freshman, but still, I'd love to see him get back into the flow of things; I really did expect him to contribute this year, and I think we, as a team, would be better if he did get back to his early-season offensive form.

Does anyone with any real information know what is going on with Andre's situation? Has there been any media stories about him of late?

[moonpie23]

what ash said...


i think it will be only a matter of setting him up for some good plays to get his shooting back. that said, i think his D needs a LOT of work and hopefully, he can get some minutes to work on that in non-critical stretches.

[RelativeWays]

He got decent PT against WF, but he also twisted his ankle in that game. My guess is that limited his effectiveness the past two games. He's going through a slump like a lot of shooters do. Coupled by the fact that he's an inexperienced freshmen means he's getting some limited minutes.

Consider this before you guys fear that he or Kelly will transfer. They get time in about EVERY game, if he did not trust them or think they could play at all, they'd never sniff the court. I think he sees the talent in both guys, they just need some experience. I think they'll both be great players for Duke and I don't think either will leave.

[BlueintheFace]

The problem is that he is our least effective scoring threat on the team. He only has value on the offensive end when he is open for three on a broken play or running the break. He is not a good ball handler and so he cannot create his own shot. Additionally, there are the defensive issues.

I too hope he can get back in the flow of things, but I do not have a lot of hope.

[PhillyDuke]

The problem is that he is our least effective scoring threat on the team. He only has value on the offensive end when he is open for three on a broken play or running the break. He is not a good ball handler and so he cannot create his own shot. Additionally, there are the defensive issues.

I too hope he can get back in the flow of things, but I do not have a lot of hope.

What makes you think "he's not a good ball handler"? Rather the sets we run restrict him to cruising around the 3-point line looking for jump shots all the time. In HS and AAU he used to take people to the hoop. I think he can contribute more than we're currently getting from him. He needs to play a lot, so that when the tournament begins he'll be "seasoned"; instead of looking like a deer caught in headlights when he gets in the game. The same can be said for Kelly and Mason.

[BlueintheFace]

What makes you think "he's not a good ball handler"?

He looks about as comfortable dribbling the ball up the floor as Zoubek on the few occasions he has done so. Additionally, when he receives the ball on the perimeter, he does the traditional big-man "take two dribbles and pick up the ball to hand off to a guard" move. Just callin it like I see it.

[roywhite]

What makes you think "he's not a good ball handler"? Rather the sets we run restrict him to cruising around the 3-point line looking for jump shots all the time. In HS and AAU he used to take people to the hoop. I think he can contribute more than we're currently getting from him. He needs to play a lot, so that when the tournament begins he'll be "seasoned"; instead of looking like a deer caught in headlights when he gets in the game. The same can be said for Kelly and Mason.

I've watched Andre play this year, and wouldn't say he's a good ballhandler for a college guard at this point. He also tweaked his ankle recently and lost some time due to the death of his sister.

Hope Andre is working hard; he'll get his chances. Remember that Elliot Williams made progress in practice and started playing a lot in February last year.

[chadlee989]

I really hope that Dre gets it together and averages around 15 mins a game come tourny time. He has been through a lot this year with all that has happen to him. It would be really nice to see him bounce back and become the player that we think he can. Plus i think we really need him to get going and give are big three a break in mins and points.

[-bdbd]

It's the old argument re playing our bench depth.

I think the team as a whole will be better in the end if we play more players in the rotation. Last night we had 4 guys play 35+ minutes (incl two at 40!). Only three bench players saw action, and none more than 14 minutes. Dawkins got 0. I get the argument - I really do - that in close games you want your "best 5" on the floor, but how much real negative impact is there from resting Scheyer for a couple minutes, letting Smith be the primary ball handler, and letting Dawkins, or Mason, have some more time on the floor? Obviously you don't have your best player on the floor those few minutes, but how much of a drop is it really -- Dawkins in his first 3 minutes of action vs Jon playing 37th - 40th minutes? And in that NCAA game in March when Scheyer gets into serious foul trouble, I'd really like Dawkins and Mason and Ryan to have the experience to be effective. Ho-hum. I know, an old argument, but I think these guys are good enough to play, and we WILL need them at some point. I too have been noticing/concerned the Dawekins drop in time at a supposedly already thin position.




Duke Blue Devils
Player POS MIN FGM-A 3GM-A FTM-A O D T AST PF ST TO BS PTS
Kyle Singler F 40 5-12 1-3 1-2 2 0 2 1 0 2 5 0 12
Miles Plumlee F 23 1-3 0-0 0-0 1 7 8 0 0 0 0 0 2
Lance Thomas F 35 5-9 0-0 3-3 1 6 7 1 0 1 1 0 13
Nolan Smith G 37 8-13 2-4 4-4 1 2 3 2 0 2 0 1 22
Jon Scheyer G 40 5-13 1-5 0-0 0 3 3 3 0 1 3 0 11
Mason Plumlee 8 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 0
Ryan Kelly 3 0-1 0-1 0-0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Brian Zoubek 14 0-1 0-0 0-2 1 1 2 1 0 1 1 1 0
Total 200 24-52 4-13 8-11 10 22 32 9 14 8 13 3 60
Percentage 46.2% 30.8% 72.7% Team Rebounds: 7

[scottdude8]

I'm pretty sure that this is more of an injury problem, and not another issue. At the NC State game, there was one possession mid-way through the first half, when the Wolfpack were really getting aggressive with their press, that Andre turned the ball over by going out of bounds under our own basket, but in doing that he seemed to go down very awkwardly... he immediately limped over to the sideline and was replaced. Now he did come back and play in the 2nd half, but he was moving very deliberately and certainly didn't seem like himself. I'm betting that his injury was a little more than it seemed, and K didn't want to exacerbate it, especially in such a hostile environment. I just don't see a reason why (besides injury) he would go from 12, 17, 12 and 9 minutes in the last four games to not getting off the bench.

[mehmattski]

Like Eliot Williams and Taylor King before him, I'm certain that Dawkins lack of playing time and hope of increasing said PT is related to one thing only:

Defense.

Coach K is simply not going to play someone, especially a freshman, if he does not believe the player shows what it takes on the defensive side of the ball. Hopefully it will "click" for him in practice the way it did for E-Will last year, and Dre will be back on the floor soon!

[Tim1515]

This was a terrible matchup for Andre. He isn't a great ballhandler that we know of...but add the fact that we're on the road AND against a team with the best press in the ACC.

Duke used 4 players to beat the Clemson press...2 seniors and 2 juniors. All 4 played a big role. If Andre is is, Clemson would force the ball into his hands and try to turn him over. That is a lot to expect from a freshman.

If Andre came in for the 5th player who wasn't involved in the press then we would have Jon, Nolan, Kyle, Andre and either LT and Mason in the game making us extremely small.

I hope Dawk gets more time...this game did not shock me and it could've made the different in Duke winning or not. the 13 to 9 point lead never felt comfortable to me and 1 or 2 bad turnovers from Andre couldn't not only hurt his confidence but it could've completely changed the game.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I'm sick of this playing matchup stuff. It ain't like we going against a south paw on the mound. Put the kid and let him get comfortable or he will be doing it for another team just like King and EWill, and both of them are playing very well for their teams.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I'm sick of this playing matchup stuff. It ain't like we going against a south paw on the mound. Put the kid and let him get comfortable or he will be doing it for another team just like King and EWill, and both of them are playing very well for their teams.


I kind of agree. Andre didn't necessarily have to be breaking the press if he was in. Besides, the way we were getting past the press yesterday was by our LACK of dribbling and just methodically passing the ball into the offenisve zone. Heck, Clemson was probably wishing someone would dribble too much because they like to trap. Coach K needs to make time for Andre Dawkins. The kid wasn't a 5 star recruit for nothing. Make him run wind sprints and agility drills in the defensive stance and boom, you got yourself a defender. A BIG part of being a good defender (for a guard) is being in great shape and just being relentless. I'm guessing he is still getting in shape to play in an ACC backcourt. But until then, give him 10 minutes, run some plays for him and let him do his thing. He is more polished offensively than EWill was and that should earn him ~5 shots a game and >10 minutes.

[MChambers]

I'm sick of this playing matchup stuff. It ain't like we going against a south paw on the mound. Put the kid and let him get comfortable or he will be doing it for another team just like King and EWill, and both of them are playing very well for their teams.

Do you realize that Dawkins has a bad ankle, as several folks have pointed out in this thread?

And that through a week ago he had played in about 41% of Duke's minutes, more than Leslie McDonald or Dexter Strickland at UNC?

Or that Elliot Williams transferred to be closer to his ill mother?

Or that King got the message after he left Duke and got in shape?

[roywhite]

I'm sick of this playing matchup stuff. It ain't like we going against a south paw on the mound. Put the kid and let him get comfortable or he will be doing it for another team just like King and EWill, and both of them are playing very well for their teams.

Hmmm....where to start?

1. We don't know for sure why Andre didn't play at all yesterday? Could be injury related
2. If he was available, we have to assume the coaches didn't believe he could perform better than the players on the court, or didn't deserve the time.
3. This was a very important game for Duke to win. I'm not a believer that we should voluntarily reduce our chances to win such a game by playing for the future development of one or more players.
4. The reason Elliot Williams left related to his family situation and not unhappiness at Duke.
5. Taylor King was not a good fit at Duke, and decided to go elsewhere; such things happen, and I wish him well.

The playing time argument is a regular feature here, but I believe the coaches are handling Andre's development well.

[Devilsfan]

Hope he gets into the flow of things but he looked lost out there against state. That said I think he and Mason are the two freshmen that look like they could turn into effective D-1 ACC players the quickest. Kelly is a very good passer, imo, but at 6'10" has a frail looking body for the physical ACC play (compared to Booker, Smith etc.). Maybe a couple of months in the weight room with our strength coaches will do him wonders. He and Mason were rated similar coming out of high school but there seems to be a world of difference in their play at this time at this level. Again they're freshmen so a year or two should also help.

[scottdude8]

Again guys I really wouldn't freak out too much about this. Yes Andre hasn't played as much as many would like, but I am confident that yesterday was (much) more about a nagging injury and the environment in Littlejohn than anything else.

[Mcluhan]

Last night's game strikes me as unique in that beating a well-oiled full-court press on an opponent's home court was the number one priority, the pre-requisite to anything else we needed to do. If healthy, I would put Dawkins' DNP down to a very specific strategic issue, kind of like how Zoubs' size simply doesn't work in certain types of games.

Even if you've successfully beat the press all game long, the potential for sudden panic is great. And this game was closer than the final score indicated.

There are games when I support bringing guys in to remind our them of what's demanded of them in real games-- a high-level of defensive awareness and intelligence, and the art of playing tough without fouling-- but I'm not sure this was that game.

[RoyalBlue08]

With the talent we got, nobody should have to play 30+ and be tired as crap come sweet 16. We don't use our bench enough during the season. Dawkins and Kelly both look at the scores' table every time the horn sounds, even if they ain't in the game, use to it I guess.

You realize that if we are playing in a sweet 16 game, we have had anywhere from 3-5 days off before hand, right? Do you really think that minutes played in January are going to effect a 20 year olds tiredness at the end of March? Have you ever decided you were too tired to exercise because you went hard two months ago? I am so tired of hearing this argument stated like a fact with nothing to support it other than personal opinion.

[Mcluhan]

You realize that if we are playing in a sweet 16 game, we have had anywhere from 3-5 days off before hand, right? Do you really think that minutes played in January are going to effect a 20 year olds tiredness at the end of March? Have you ever decided you were too tired to exercise because you went hard two months ago? I am so tired of hearing this argument stated like a fact with nothing to support it other than personal opinion.

Well, I think player fatigue is a big factor during the tournament, but it's mostly due to the extra energy that's exerted off the court during that time: the starters are doing more interviews, there's more excitement/emotion/adrenaline, guys are graduating, more press scrutiny, etc. Think of how exhausted GHill looked in the '94 final. It wasn't due to minutes played during the season, it was due to the huge emotional exertion that comes with being a superstar senior captain trying to lead a team to victory week after week in huge arenas against top competition.

That's why you want a developed bench, not because minutes played now will some cumulative effect down the road.

[Tim1515]

Oh yeah, Mason can't dribble and He gets to play. LOL, had to do it

You helped make our argument here. Mason was going to play and help LT with the inbounding because of his height and ability to dribble and pass.

what happens...he makes the mistake of trying to dribble through the press and turns the ball over. After that we didn't see much of Mason...8 minutes.

For a large part of the second half we had about a 9 point lead. We moved the ball slowly up the court without turning it over and held that lead. If we had 1 or 2 bad turnovers during that stretch it would've gotten the crowd and Clemson fired up most likely and they could've went on a big run.

K didn't feel comfortable that using freshman to break the press was worth the risk of losing. It is easy to sit back after a win and say we should've played freshman...but i doubt anyone would give Dawkins 20 minutes last night and take a loss.

Do you know when the last 3 was that AD made? Try 8 games ago when we played Penn. I believe including that game he is 1 for his last 12 three point shots. He's struggling right now...and putting him in a game that he is more likely to fail in...on the road...at Clemson...against the best press in the ACC and one of the best in the country...didn't "match up" for K.

We'd all like to see the freshman play a little more but Mason and Dawkins have gotten minutes in other games and I expect that will continue.

[BD80]

Taylor King is a third year player, so comparing his minutes this year to his freshman year is unfair. I would bet he would be getting similar minutes off of the bench if he were still here, if he would play team defense.

Our defense is such that if one player isn't in sync with the other four, we can give up easy baskets. If all five are concentrating on defense, we can be VERY good.

Mason, Andre and Ryan are learning and getting more comfortable. There will be games where they will be needed to contribute. There are TWELVE games left, plus the ACC tournament, before the dance begins.

[Jumbo]

With the talent we got, nobody should have to play 30+ and be tired as crap come sweet 16. We don't use our bench enough during the season. Dawkins and Kelly both look at the scores' table every time the horn sounds, even if they ain't in the game, use to it I guess.

First of all, tone down the act. If you can't make an argument without saying "tired as crap," you don't have an argument at all.

Meanwhile, you're not really making much sense. No one should have to play 30-plus minutes in a game? WHAT? You realize that basically every team in the country has multiple players averaging 30-plus minutes a game, right? You realize that the guys are playing two games a week, right? Yet you believe -- somehow -- that those extra few minutes twice a week will somehow leave a player exhausted in March? That just doesn't make any sense.

Players earn playing time. If Dawkins is healthy and stops missing defensive assignments and can handle the ball competently, he'll play. And he's not going anywhere. So relax. Kelly is Duke's 5th big. Next year Thomas and Zoubek will be gone. He'll play plenty then, too.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Kyle's first 2 years he was exhausted in the ncaa tourney, I guess Royal didn't watch, and all the analyst talked about how wore down he was and they get paid to do it, so now. Tone what down? I don't care what other teams do, plus they don't have Micky D's hi school all americans on the bench. Did Miles even take his shooting shirt off last year vs Nova?

[Wander]

your points well taken but in a 40 minute game, there's no reason to play only 8 players and 2 players played the entire 40 minutes.

I'd actually say that an 8 player rotation is ideal. I do think that Dawkins and not Kelly should be the 8th, though.

Find some Texas fans this week and ask them how many players they think should play in one game. : )

[Duvall]

your points well taken but in a 40 minute game, there's no reason to play only 8 players and 2 players played the entire 40 minutes.

Well, when you only have nine players, it seems like there are a lot of reasons why you might play only eight in a particular game.

[Mcluhan]

8 is good if you don't have any more and Zoo needs to be the last to come off the bench behind steve johnson.

I was wondering if this was a serious discussion. Now I know that it isn't. Good to know.

[roywhite]

Taylor King was a good fit at Duke...he just wasn't a good fit on the bench. when is A 3point shootin 6-8 forward not a good fit a Duke? lol

When he doesn't play good defense, or get in good shape?

[tele]

I don't really know how many players is optimum in a college rotation, depend on the style of play, how good you are, who you're playing and where I suppose.

I did notice something that surprised me, even with the DNP for Dawkins in the clemson game, he has logged about the same amount of minutes as Zoubek. 291 to 302. And he has more points than zoubek too, but as you'd expect, zoubek has more rebounds and fouls. I wouldn't have guessed that Dawkins has been getting that many minutes.

With the tough schedule stretch and some tough losses, not too surprising that the more experienced players are getting more minutes or even playing all 40. For a freshman, Dawkins has been contributing a lot, he's just having to play behind a couple of pretty good veteran players.

[Jumbo]

Kyle's first 2 years he was exhausted in the ncaa tourney, I guess Royal didn't watch, and all the analyst talked about how wore down he was and they get paid to do it, so now. Tone what down? I don't care what other teams do, plus they don't have Micky D's hi school all americans on the bench. Did Miles even take his shooting shirt off last year vs Nova?

You're really not making much sense right now. Miles Plumlee wasn't a McDonald's All-American. He was the 81st-ranked player (http://home.roadrunner.com/~rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2008.htm) in class of 2008. Singler was worn down in the tourney last year? Really? In the ACC Tourney, he played every second of all three games, three days in a row, and was fantastic -- 18 ppg, 8 rpg, 47.4% 3-point shooting. Oh, and Duke won the ACC Tourney. If that's what he does when he's exhausted, I'd like him to be exhausted all the time. Did he suddenly become exhausted in the NCAA Tourney? Why, then, late in the win against Texas did he come flying in for what would be the game-winning tip-in? Why was he able to score 17 points on 6-of-12 shooting, including 3-of-5 from 3-point land? Why was he able to grab 7 rebounds? Are you just solely focusing on the Villanova game, in which the entire team was lousy and couldn't shoot -- including guys who had plenty of "rest" earlier in the season? Well, even in that game, Kyle wasn't dreadful -- he managed to score 15 points and shoot better (5-of-13) than everyone else. But you don't seem interested in facts. So I'd suggest that if you have such a problem with the number of players Duke utilizes, perhaps you might enjoy rooting for a different team that relies on a larger rotation. Hey, there's one right down the road, in fact.

[DukeFanSince1990]

First of all, tone down the act. If you can't make an argument without saying "tired as crap," you don't have an argument at all.

Meanwhile, you're not really making much sense. No one should have to play 30-plus minutes in a game? WHAT? You realize that basically every team in the country has multiple players averaging 30-plus minutes a game, right? You realize that the guys are playing two games a week, right? Yet you believe -- somehow -- that those extra few minutes twice a week will somehow leave a player exhausted in March? That just doesn't make any sense.

Players earn playing time. If Dawkins is healthy and stops missing defensive assignments and can handle the ball competently, he'll play. And he's not going anywhere. So relax. Kelly is Duke's 5th big. Next year Thomas and Zoubek will be gone. He'll play plenty then, too.


Not only that, but I dont know who up here has actually played for their high school, but you practice a whole lot more then 30 plus minutes per day. And thats hard running, scrimmage, cardio, etc. Playing 30 minutes in a game should be easy in comparison.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Let's just see what happens going forward. Isn't a lot of this moot if it turns out he was injured? Isn't this moot if it turns out he plays in, say three games, 13-15 minutes or whatever? Each game is an individual journey. Coach K has said over and over and over again that minutes played are a reflection of what happens in practice. Bad practice = few or no minutes. Is anyone who is writing on here a member of Coach K's staff or been in some capacity to practice? Furthermore, Coach K has assistants. Those people are not mute, weeping willows without ideas or opinions. If they feel a player should be in more, they will say something. Let's give some credit to Coach Collins and Wojo. Let's not forget these folks have won a game or two in their time. No staff is perfect. Every good coach can be stubborn. I am not saying Coach K is infallible, but I do think he knows a bit more about who should play and when. I have confidence in him.

GO DUKE!

[Newton_14]

Yeah, I do not know why K did not play our back up point guard last night. Jon could have dropped back to 30 minutes or so and the back up could have gotten 10 minutes of action. Oh wait, darn, I forgot, Seth Curry is the only backup PG on the team and he is redshirting...

And why couldn't Kyle's backup at the 3 spot played 10 minutes or so to allow Kyle to only play 30 minutes? Oh yeah, that's right, we don't have a backup Small Forward..

Well surely Nolan's backup could have played to give Nolan some rest. Oh wait, Andre has a bum ankle and was in noticeable pain in the NCSU game, plus has been dealing with other issues such as a death in the family causing him to have to cram in his exams at a later date than the regular guys. But it is likely he was mainly held out due to the injury.

Well, what about that Kelly kid? Oh yeah, he is the 5th man in the big rotation and actually came in a few minutes to spell the others. But still has 4 other guys in front of him that are all ahead of him currently..

We have 9 players. Not 10, Not 11, Not 12 or 13. We have 9 PLAYERS!! In games where they are healthy all 9 are playing in every game. Andre is hurt and will play again when healthy.

We have 4 Bench Players. 4, TOTAL. 3 of the 4 are bigs. 2 of those 3 play early and often in most games. That leaves 1 bench player in Andre who is a shooting guard with zero Point Guard skills.

Add all that up and it means the Big 3 have to play a lot of minutes no matter what the situation is, unless you guys are suggesting that the walkons need to be playing in tight ACC games.

K managed the rotation to perfection given the situation at hand last night and the end result was a big win against a very good opponent in the 2nd toughest gym to play in in the ACC.

A great hard fought win that should be celebrated not picked apart.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I am not at all worried about Andre. He will get healthy and bounce back. The 3's will start falling again and he will make progress with his D and Ballhandling. He is too good of a player not to. I have no doubt he will give the team an extra scoring punch down the stretch

[Devilsfan]

If we do what some are suggesting we might be a 8-10 seed if that come March. K always puts the team on the court that he feels has the best chance to win. And his record ain't too shabby. That's why he makes $3mill plus and I bet you (his critics) don't. I support whatever Coach elects to do with playing time. Go Devils!

[jipops]

Kyle's first 2 years he was exhausted in the ncaa tourney, I guess Royal didn't watch, and all the analyst talked about how wore down he was and they get paid to do it, so now. Tone what down? I don't care what other teams do, plus they don't have Micky D's hi school all americans on the bench. Did Miles even take his shooting shirt off last year vs Nova?

To pile on, the reason Kyle experienced fatigue late in in his freshman season, as K admitted, is because as a 210lb player he was our only viable option in the post. Out of lack of personnel and necessity he was forced to bang down low with much larger players. There were no McD's post players, nor any developed and healthy true post players on the bench that season. This had nothing to do with simply playing a short rotation. The following season, as Jumbo pointed out, turned out much different for Kyle.

[gofurman]

Kyle's first 2 years he was exhausted in the ncaa tourney, I guess Royal didn't watch, and all the analyst talked about how wore down he was and they get paid to do it, so now. Tone what down? I don't care what other teams do, plus they don't have Micky D's hi school all americans on the bench. Did Miles even take his shooting shirt off last year vs Nova?

dukebballcamper - I am a huge proponent of resting players a little more but even I would say let's let this one go. Like someone posted, it isn't good to argue without facts:

Miles wasn't a McD AA as you imply. In reality he was an "secondary" (and I mean no disrespect as I love having him on the team now..) recruit we got from Stanford as we pursued his brother.

Second, at least bring an article or fact. I often use the "tired" argument so I hear you but maybe at least (google will do it ;) - get an article where K has admitted the team was worn down. He has indeed done so.

In essence, I can sense you are feeling "piled on" in this thread but no need to start hedging facts (Miles as a McD AA).

And while I agree that I like depth... Dawkins - for this game in particular - is a liability. Youngsters don't handle the press well - esp in that kind of environment - and he may be running on a bum ankle. I don't have a problm with him missing this game.

let's just hope we see him again soon and that mason and miles continue to develop !

[pfrduke]

One more point of consideration - our training/coaching staff has done a superb job getting Scheyer, Smith, and Singler in shape to play 37-38 minutes. Watching other games this weekend, guys end up cramping all the time. I don't recall a single time this season where one of our guys has worn down or cramped up. Their condition is really incredible.

[BlueintheFace]

I think a few people need to be reminded of some statistics I posted a few weeks ago:

Players Over 30 MPG

85-86= Johnny Dawkins (33.1), Tommy Amaker (30.2)
86-87= Tommy Amaker (35.6), Danny Ferry (33.2)
87-88= Danny Ferry (32.5)
88-89= Danny Ferry (33.2), Quin Snyder (30.4)
89-90= Bobby Hurley (33.4), Phil Henderson (31.5), Christian Laettner (30.0)
90-91= Christian Laettner (30.2), Bobby Hurley (34.7)
91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)
92-93= Bobby Hurley (35.6), Thomas Hill (31.9), Grant Hill (31.6)
93-94= Grant Hill (35.7), Cherokee Parks (30.5), Chris Collins (31.0), Antonio Lang (30.1)
94-95= Cherokee Parks (35.2)
95-96= Jeff Capel (34.9), Chris Collins (34.6), Ricky Price (31.9)
96-97= None
97-98= None
98-99= William Avery (31.0), Trajan Langdon (31.0)
99-00= Shane Battier (35.5), Chris Carrawell (35.6), Jason Williams (34.0)
00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)
01-02= Chris Duhon (35.1), Jason Williams (3.6), Mike Dunleavy Jr. (32.4)
02-03= Chris Duhon (36), Dahntay Jones (30.7), JJ Redick (30.7)
03-04= Chris Duhon (35.4), JJ Redick (31.1), Luol Deng (31.1), and Daniel Ewing (30.6)
04-05= JJ Redick (37.3), Daniel Ewing (34.5), Shelden Williams (33.6)
05-06= JJ Redick (37.1), Shelden Williams (33.3), Greg Paulus (32.3)
06-07= Josh McRoberts (35.3), Jon Scheyer (33.7), Greg Paulus (32.4), Demarcus Nelson (31.9)
07-08= Demarcus Nelson (30.9)
08-09= Jon Scheyer (32.8), Kyle Singler (32.2)

[Kewlswim]

One more point of consideration - our training/coaching staff has done a superb job getting Scheyer, Smith, and Singler in shape to play 37-38 minutes. Watching other games this weekend, guys end up cramping all the time. I don't recall a single time this season where one of our guys has worn down or cramped up. Their condition is really incredible.

Hi,

Didn't Erin Andrews say that OP said in his huddle that he wanted his team to keep playing hard because we (I am taking liberties here, it is the Duke team I am of course referring to) were about to run out of steam and get fatigued? Funny, it seemed to me the Orange clad Tiggers looked more tired than the Duke Blue Devils, but I look at the world with Blue Devil goggles on so it might not have been that way.

GO DUKE!

[CPDUKEGUY24]

Hi,

Didn't Erin Andrews say that OP said in his huddle that he wanted his team to keep playing hard because we (I am taking liberties here, it is the Duke team I am of course referring to) were about to run out of steam and get fatigued? Funny, it seemed to me the Orange clad Tiggers looked more tired than the Duke Blue Devils, but I look at the world with Blue Devil goggles on so it might not have been that way.

GO DUKE!

I remember hearing her report that and thinking to myself "hmmm...maybe Oliver's going w/ a "you got em on the ropes" type, motivational speech here?"

If anyone was worn out at that point in the game it was surely the Tiggers after they'd been running that press all night, and playing catchup ball the whole second half.

91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)

00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)

96-97= None
97-98= None

Just for the sake of argument... When K et al. have great athletes he utilizes/maximizes their talents! Logically, as represented by the 91-92 team, when you keep truly GREAT players on the floor, truly GREAT things happen.

And on the opposite end, 96-98, well... you might remember those years.

I think the information Blueintheface provided speaks volumes, and only validates K's decision making in regards to the allotment of minutes.

Having "the Sensationals" :cool: on the floor the majority of the game, I take to be a positive indicator. Too bad Mason and Miles aren't fully there or we could have a repeat of the 91-92 season...in minutes of course and maybe other facets of the game:D

Stay Positive Fellas... and Go Duke!

[oldnavy]

Our best game thus far this year, in the most difficult environment we will play in all year, and people want to pick it apart discussing the number of minutes bench players get. Well, if you want to focus on that after watching a masterful game by the Devils, have at it. I am going to enjoy this one for a while...

Oh, and you rest players in the practices, not the games. It is ludicrous to think that playing 40 minutes of basketball over two hours would "wear down" any of these players come March. They could do this 7 days a week and not get tired. Practices are a different story. I think K has earned my trust on this subject, so I am going to sit back and enjoy what I saw on Saturday.

[Saratoga2]

We have 4 Bench Players. 4, TOTAL. 3 of the 4 are bigs. 2 of those 3 play early and often in most games. That leaves 1 bench player in Andre who is a shooting guard with zero Point Guard skills.



As for the actual topic of this thread, I am not at all worried about Andre. He will get healthy and bounce back. The 3's will start falling again and he will make progress with his D and Ballhandling. He is too good of a player not to. I have no doubt he will give the team an extra scoring punch down the stretch

There were times last year that people might have said Williams had zero point guard skills, yet he is starting for Memphis this year and doing a decent job. I don't think it makes sense to say something like Andre has zero point guard skills, when he appears to be a creditable guard with lots of upside to his performance. Give the kid a break, he is a freshman and he has gone through a lot. I expect him to come a long way as the season moves on and also in coming years,

[NSDukeFan]

Our best game thus far this year, in the most difficult environment we will play in all year, and people want to pick it apart discussing the number of minutes bench players get. Well, if you want to focus on that after watching a masterful game by the Devils, have at it. I am going to enjoy this one for a while...

I agree completely with this statement and have been surprised at the clouds people have been finding in the silver lining.

There were times last year that people might have said Williams had zero point guard skills, yet he is starting for Memphis this year and doing a decent job. I don't think it makes sense to say something like Andre has zero point guard skills, when he appears to be a creditable guard with lots of upside to his performance. Give the kid a break, he is a freshman and he has gone through a lot. I expect him to come a long way as the season moves on and also in coming years,

I can agree with your criticism of Boozer's use of the term "zero point guard skills" as an exaggeration, but I otherwise agree with what he said. Andre has shown he has as nice a jump shot as anyone on the team and has also on occasion shown an ability to take a strong dribble or two to get to the basket, but has so far not shown that he has the skills to be a solid point guard against an outstanding pressing team.
I am also not at all worried about Andre and, like you and Boozer, hope and expect to see him as a solid contributor for the team going forward.

[flyingdutchdevil]

There were times last year that people might have said Williams had zero point guard skills, yet he is starting for Memphis this year and doing a decent job. I don't think it makes sense to say something like Andre has zero point guard skills, when he appears to be a creditable guard with lots of upside to his performance. Give the kid a break, he is a freshman and he has gone through a lot. I expect him to come a long way as the season moves on and also in coming years,

Andre is a lot of things - great on the break, better on the 3-pt line. Fantastic teammate, amazing artist (did you see that stick figure of Nolan - very accurate). However, Andre does not like to put the ball on the floor. That either implies that he isn't good at it or he was told not to. Either way, it means that he doesn't have dribbling / PG skills.

Of course he will get better. G as a freshman had awful PG skills and he got considerably better. Dre will be a good guard and a valued asset for Duke. And, you're right, patience is needed. But, as it stands, I have to agree with Boozer that Andre doesn't have PG skills. But I do except that to change. If not this year, then definitely next season.

[tbyers11]

One more point of consideration - our training/coaching staff has done a superb job getting Scheyer, Smith, and Singler in shape to play 37-38 minutes. Watching other games this weekend, guys end up cramping all the time. I don't recall a single time this season where one of our guys has worn down or cramped up. Their condition is really incredible.

Yeah, both Singleton and Dulkys were cramping up at the end for FSU in their victory over GT on Sunday. Wonder if Duke decides to go a little bit more uptempo on Wed against FSU to try and wear their players down. That and the fact that FSU doesn't have real strong guard play or real strong finishers at the rim (besides Singleton).

The Duke players conditioning has been amazing for the last couple of years. I wonder if they all drink 2 big bottles of Gatorade throughout the day on game day like Shane used to. :D

[Newton_14]

There were times last year that people might have said Williams had zero point guard skills, yet he is starting for Memphis this year and doing a decent job. I don't think it makes sense to say something like Andre has zero point guard skills, when he appears to be a creditable guard with lots of upside to his performance. Give the kid a break, he is a freshman and he has gone through a lot. I expect him to come a long way as the season moves on and also in coming years,

Sorry. Did not mean that as a slam against Andre. I love the kid and his game. I was trying to make the point that one of Jon or Nolan have to be on the court at all times. Apologies if it came across as negative against Andre. I should have worded that differently.

[RepoMan]

He was the 81st-ranked player (http://home.roadrunner.com/~rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2008.htm) in class of 2008.

Wow, not to digress, but check out Czyz at 66?! Just goes to show that rankings, especially after the first say 20 spots, is really arbitrary.

[CDu]

Wow, not to digress, but check out Czyz at 66?! Just goes to show that rankings, especially after the first say 20 spots, is really arbitrary.

That is definitely true. I will say in Czyz's defense that he had the misfortune of playing at a position (the 4) that had just too many talented and/or experienced guys ahead of him last year, and on a team with that same problem AND a lack of guards this year.

Had he played on a team where he could be a 4 right away, he might have become a productive player over the last few years. But he was too raw as a freshman to play for Duke, and we asked him to play out of position as a sophomore.

Hopefully for him he can find his role and have a nice 2.5 years at the 4 spot back in Nevada.

[Memphis Devil]

I think a few people need to be reminded of some statistics I posted a few weeks ago:

Players Over 30 MPG

85-86= Johnny Dawkins (33.1), Tommy Amaker (30.2)
86-87= Tommy Amaker (35.6), Danny Ferry (33.2)
87-88= Danny Ferry (32.5)
88-89= Danny Ferry (33.2), Quin Snyder (30.4)
89-90= Bobby Hurley (33.4), Phil Henderson (31.5), Christian Laettner (30.0)
90-91= Christian Laettner (30.2), Bobby Hurley (34.7)
91-92= Bobby Hurley (33.6), Christian Laettner (32.2), Thomas Hill (30.6), Grant Hill (30.3), Brian Davis (30.9)
92-93= Bobby Hurley (35.6), Thomas Hill (31.9), Grant Hill (31.6)
93-94= Grant Hill (35.7), Cherokee Parks (30.5), Chris Collins (31.0), Antonio Lang (30.1)
94-95= Cherokee Parks (35.2)
95-96= Jeff Capel (34.9), Chris Collins (34.6), Ricky Price (31.9)
96-97= None
97-98= None
98-99= William Avery (31.0), Trajan Langdon (31.0)
99-00= Shane Battier (35.5), Chris Carrawell (35.6), Jason Williams (34.0)
00-01= Jason Williams (31.8), Shane Battier (34.9)
01-02= Chris Duhon (35.1), Jason Williams (3.6), Mike Dunleavy Jr. (32.4)
02-03= Chris Duhon (36), Dahntay Jones (30.7), JJ Redick (30.7)
03-04= Chris Duhon (35.4), JJ Redick (31.1), Luol Deng (31.1), and Daniel Ewing (30.6)
04-05= JJ Redick (37.3), Daniel Ewing (34.5), Shelden Williams (33.6)
05-06= JJ Redick (37.1), Shelden Williams (33.3), Greg Paulus (32.3)
06-07= Josh McRoberts (35.3), Jon Scheyer (33.7), Greg Paulus (32.4), Demarcus Nelson (31.9)
07-08= Demarcus Nelson (30.9)
08-09= Jon Scheyer (32.8), Kyle Singler (32.2)

What in the hell is K thinking? He keeps playing the best players on the team the most minutes. It's almost like he hates these kids the way he abuses them! Just imagine how many more Final Fours and National Championships we would have celebrated had the best players on the team only played less so that they would have been more fresh come March. :D

[Matches]

Ah; the old minutes debate.

In some respects it's a false metric. Not all minutes are created equal. Kyle was worn down during the '08 season even though he played less than 30 mpg. He was fine at the end of last season despite averaging 32.2.

You go to war with your best players to the extent you're able to do so. I'd never want to see us lose a game in March by 2 points and then look at the boxscore and see that our best player sat on the bench for 15 minutes. The idea of resting guys more often during the regular season is fine - if they need it and if we have the personnel to do it - but the difference between 37 mpg and 40 mpg is negligible. Sitting Scheyer or Singler for 3 minutes a game isn't going to make them more fresh in March. It just won't. It's a drop in the bucket.

There have certainly been times when I felt like K left guys in the game too long after outcomes were decided, and I think a lot of folks got frustrated with Redick's high minute count his senior year - but in retrospect, what should K have done differently? Played Marty 10-12 mpg? No question JJ wore out, but was it really feasible to sit him for any length of time and continue to perform at a high level?

[CDu]

Ah; the old minutes debate.

In some respects it's a false metric. Not all minutes are created equal. Kyle was worn down during the '08 season even though he played less than 30 mpg. He was fine at the end of last season despite averaging 32.2.

You go to war with your best players to the extent you're able to do so. I'd never want to see us lose a game in March by 2 points and then look at the boxscore and see that our best player sat on the bench for 15 minutes. The idea of resting guys more often during the regular season is fine - if they need it and if we have the personnel to do it - but the difference between 37 mpg and 40 mpg is negligible. Sitting Scheyer or Singler for 3 minutes a game isn't going to make them more fresh in March. It just won't. It's a drop in the bucket.

There have certainly been times when I felt like K left guys in the game too long after outcomes were decided, and I think a lot of folks got frustrated with Redick's high minute count his senior year - but in retrospect, what should K have done differently? Played Marty 10-12 mpg? No question JJ wore out, but was it really feasible to sit him for any length of time and continue to perform at a high level?

Right. I also won't buy the argument that an extra few minutes of rest per game will make a difference come March.

There are only two arguments that I consider reasonable to discuss with regard to minutes:
1. playing more minutes may reduce the "freshness" of a player in that particular game; and
2. playing the stars fewer minutes may help the development of bench players by getting them more time in real games as opposed to just practice.

I can see arguments both ways on these two arguments, and there's really nothing that a debate can resolve here (we can't do a randomized trial to answer the question).

[NYDukie]

Right. I also won't buy the argument that an extra few minutes of rest per game will make a difference come March.

There are only two arguments that I consider reasonable to discuss with regard to minutes:
1. playing more minutes may reduce the "freshness" of a player in that particular game; and
2. playing the stars fewer minutes may help the development of bench players by getting them more time in real games as opposed to just practice.

I can see arguments both ways on these two arguments, and there's really nothing that a debate can resolve here (we can't do a randomized trial to answer the question).

I've mentioned similar thoughts given the "Duke wears down" mantra the past number of years. I use to say that Coach K should monitor minutes during the season to keep them fresh. After re-evaluating my comments and taking other posters thoughts into consideration, I do agree now it's over-rated except on one front. That being player your top players 38-40 minutes could lead said players to be more fatigued over the course of a game rather than an opponent getting 30-32 minutes when it comes down to crunch time. And this can be due to the bench development.

Found an articles by Seth Davis on SI today refering to the team's big win at Clemson but that he noted that it did not include much production nor minutes from the freshmen and that it seems "Coach K may be giving up on the freshmen a little early" as Mason's minutes have been stagnate and played less than 10 minutes against Clemson, that Dawkins did not play and has seen limited minutes lately and Kelly minutes have been limited for most of the season. At heart of the matter it seemed that such tightening of the bench or limiting of the freshmen's minutes may help short term in the ACC and on the road but what impact may that have come tourney time? That is the big question, especially if Mason's amount of minutes the last two games become more the norm. Definitely an interesting topic and one that spurs some heated debate here. IMO, keeping Mason and Andre involved and in important roles is key as it helps them and the team, especially the Big 3, growing and developing into a better team. From what I've seen, the team has appeared its best when Mason and have contibruted in some form, even if not necessarily in the same game.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

With the minutes issue being thrown aound so much as of late with the freshman particularly, I often wonder why the topic isn't brought up with Coach K and the staff. People have talked about Andre being injured in the Clemson game, but was it ever brought up with the staff as far as why he didn't get any minutes? This is a topic where fans want to be in the know. Simple questions like how are the freshman coming along? Those could go a long way into answering some of our questions.

[yancem]

Found an articles by Seth Davis on SI today refering to the team's big win at Clemson but that he noted that it did not include much production nor minutes from the freshmen and that it seems "Coach K may be giving up on the freshmen a little early" as Mason's minutes have been stagnate and played less than 10 minutes against Clemson, that Dawkins did not play and has seen limited minutes lately and Kelly minutes have been limited for most of the season. At heart of the matter it seemed that such tightening of the bench or limiting of the freshmen's minutes may help short term in the ACC and on the road but what impact may that have come tourney time? That is the big question, especially if Mason's amount of minutes the last two games become more the norm. Definitely an interesting topic and one that spurs some heated debate here. IMO, keeping Mason and Andre involved and in important roles is key as it helps them and the team, especially the Big 3, growing and developing into a better team. From what I've seen, the team has appeared its best when Mason and have contibruted in some form, even if not necessarily in the same game.

Normally, I tend to lean on the side of playing the bench (especially freshman) as much as possible so that they can develop more as the season progresses but the Clemson game was different. Little John is an extremely difficult place to play, Clemson plays a tough pressing defense that can break inexperienced players and Duke was riding a 3 road game losing streak.

That was a must win game and we needed out best players out their to best ensure a w. Mason did get into the game early and proceeded to commit 2 TO's and 2 silly fouls. I was fine with him sitting on the bench and watching some. It's in home games when we are up 20 and the starters are playing 35+ minutes that I get upset.

My guess is that Mason will continue to get in games and his minutes will depend on match ups and how he's playing. As for Dawkins, I can only assume that his ankle is hurt more than has been reported and that his minutes will go back up in a week or so.

[NYDukie]

Normally, I tend to lean on the side of playing the bench (especially freshman) as much as possible so that they can develop more as the season progresses but the Clemson game was different. Little John is an extremely difficult place to play, Clemson plays a tough pressing defense that can break inexperienced players and Duke was riding a 3 road game losing streak.

That was a must win game and we needed out best players out their to best ensure a w. Mason did get into the game early and proceeded to commit 2 TO's and 2 silly fouls. I was fine with him sitting on the bench and watching some. It's in home games when we are up 20 and the starters are playing 35+ minutes that I get upset.

My guess is that Mason will continue to get in games and his minutes will depend on match ups and how he's playing. As for Dawkins, I can only assume that his ankle is hurt more than has been reported and that his minutes will go back up in a week or so.

You're probably right in that there were underlying factors why Mason didn't play more. Andre's situation may be physical or the drain of personal matters. It will be interesting to see what roles they have or develop over the next two to three weeks as I think they are both important players in how this season will play out.

[Newton_14]

You're probably right in that there were underlying factors why Mason didn't play more. Andre's situation may be physical or the drain of personal matters. It will be interesting to see what roles they have or develop over the next two to three weeks as I think they are both important players in how this season will play out.

I think the comments in the article Seth wrote are quite a bit unfair as well. I don't at all feel that K has "given up on the freshman". Especially Mason. We are not even 9 days removed from the Wake game where Mason played a lot of minutes and played really well. It was like the 4th game of a 4 game stretch where Mason had some really good outings and had his minutes increase a little bit.

Since then we played 2 tough road games and in the State game, Mason had a bad game which is not unusual for a freshman. And like someone else said, given the 3 game road losing streak, the game at Clemson was practically a must win game. Mason did not play well when he game in and LT had a career game. K did not give up on Mason, he simply went with the experienced hot hand in that one crucial game.

He also threw Kelly in there in both halves and showed a little confidence in him as well. Not many minutes for Kelly, but still 2 weeks ago he may not have played at all in a game like that. Kelly is coming along, just at a slower pace.

And I still fully believe Andre was injured. Judging by his body language on the sidelines he was the biggest cheerleader and it just looked to me like he expected not to play. Just my opinion.

All in all, I think K is very high on all 3 freshman and I have heard him say that many times this year. People forget that Andre came in a year early, did not get the benefit of the summer at Duke that Mason and Kelly got, so he missed a lot there, then he had the tragedy to deal with, which also put him behind with exams, and then he hurt the ankle to top it off. He is a great player who just needs time to get it back together. I still expect him to contribute down the stretch.

Then with Mason, he breaks his wrist and misses 6 games that would have helped him quite a bit to get settled in. It takes Bigs longer to adjust to the college game and Mason's progression was interrupted. He is still playing catch up.

I guess my point is all 3 of our freshman are really good players who just need to develop. Mason and Andre are very likely to make contributions/impacts this year, and Kelly may very well become someone who can contribute at least a little this year as well. He let that 3 go in the Clemson game very smoothly and confidently Sat night. He looked more comfortable out there than in games past.

We just need to have patience with them and not give up on them ourselves.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Why will Dawkins get more significant minutes even next year ? Smith and Irving will start and Curry is a better scorer than Dawkins. I can see Dawkins getting more than this year, but significant time, I am not so sure. If Thorton can relieve Irving even for a breather, then that would also take away minutes from Dawkins.

As to this year, his personal tragedy has to be weighing heavily on him and is a valid reason why he is not the same player that we saw early on.

[Duvall]

Why will Dawkins get more significant minutes even next year ? Smith and Irving will start and Curry is a better scorer than Dawkins. I can see Dawkins getting more than this year, but significant time, I am not so sure.

And you know this how, exactly?

[jimrowe0]

Why will Dawkins get more significant minutes even next year ? Smith and Irving will start and Curry is a better scorer than Dawkins. I can see Dawkins getting more than this year, but significant time, I am not so sure.

I am going to have to agree with that as well.

[airowe]

Why will Dawkins get more significant minutes even next year ? Smith and Irving will start and Curry is a better scorer than Dawkins. I can see Dawkins getting more than this year, but significant time, I am not so sure. If Thorton can relieve Irving even for a breather, then that would also take away minutes from Dawkins..

I think the answer to this is pretty clear.

1) With our guard depth next year, we are going to see some 3 guard rotations with Singler at the 4. Curry, Irving, and Smith are all undersized compared to Dawkins so I foresee him being on the court in these sets. Shoot, we've seen K go with this lineup some this year despite our dearth of guards.

2) There's a few reasons Seth has been playing PG in practice all year and one of them is because that's where Dell and K see him playing in the League. Seth can play both SG and PG so you'll see him at both spots. Dawkins plays more SG/SF so Irving's minutes will not affect Andre's.

[COYS]

I think the answer to this is pretty clear.

1) With our guard depth next year, we are going to see some 3 guard rotations with Singler at the 4. Curry, Irving, and Smith are all undersized compared to Dawkins so I foresee him being on the court in these sets. Shoot, we've seen K go with this lineup some this year despite our dearth of guards.

2) There's a few reasons Seth has been playing PG in practice all year and one of them is because that's where Dell and K see him playing in the League. Seth can play both SG and PG so you'll see him at both spots. Dawkins plays more SG/SF so Irving's minutes will not affect Andre's.

To add to this, in 2007-2008 we easily played Greg, DMarc, G, and Jon significant minutes. I recognize that we often had all four of them in at once with Kyle at the five, which won't need to happen next year if Kyle's back because of the Plumlees. However, there will still be plenty of time for all four guards because the makeup of the team will be entirely different. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a small lineup like that occasionally, as well.

[davekay1971]

If Nolan and Kyle both come back for their senior campaigns, we're going to have an embarrassment of riches on the perimeter to complement the Plumlee-Plumlee-Kelly Trifecta of Towering Terror.

Back to back championships baby...COUNT IT.

(just kidding)

[jimrowe0]

I think the answer to this is pretty clear.

1) With our guard depth next year, we are going to see some 3 guard rotations with Singler at the 4. Curry, Irving, and Smith are all undersized compared to Dawkins so I foresee him being on the court in these sets. Shoot, we've seen K go with this lineup some this year despite our dearth of guards.

2) There's a few reasons Seth has been playing PG in practice all year and one of them is because that's where Dell and K see him playing in the League. Seth can play both SG and PG so you'll see him at both spots. Dawkins plays more SG/SF so Irving's minutes will not affect Andre's.

But take into account again that Smith will play the majority of the minutes. Irving and Curry will split some time at PG and Curry will also slide to SG as well. That will leave some minutes for Andre because of his size, however especially if Kyle comes back and we land Terrence Ross...I see limited time overall either way for Dawkins. I think he is a great player and will continue to develop, but I am not sure he is able to compete with Irving, Smith, Curry...unless he elevates his game between now and then.

[DukieInBrasil]

it's hard to get in the flow when you don't get any PT, which AD didn't @ Clemson. I had not heard before that he twisted his ankle vs. Wake, but I've been wondering if he had been dealing with some injuries. He hasn't really seen much more than, or even up to, 10mpg lately. It's frustrating that he hasn't been playing more and/or been pretty ineffective lately, given our overall lack of depth and especially lack of depth at guard. Hopefully he'll get healthy/on-track soon, b/c this is the reason why he got his butt in gear to get enrolled early at Duke, to help the team. And we mos def need it.

[NSDukeFan]

But take into account again that Smith will play the majority of the minutes. Irving and Curry will split some time at PG and Curry will also slide to SG as well. That will leave some minutes for Andre because of his size, however especially if Kyle comes back and we land Terrence Ross...I see limited time overall either way for Dawkins. I think he is a great player and will continue to develop, but I am not sure he is able to compete with Irving, Smith, Curry...unless he elevates his game between now and then.

If Kyle comes back and we land Terrence Ross, a sophomore Andre would most likely be ahead of a freshman Ross and get significant minutes at both wing positions. I would expect Ross would have trouble getting minutes in that fantastic scenario. Basically, I don't see any addition we make in recruiting having much of a negative impact on Andre's playing time next year, except in blowouts.
If we had positions, this would be my best guess (others may be able to do better):
PG Irving/Curry/Smith/Thornton
SG Smith/Andre/Curry/Ross?
SF Singler/Andre/Hairston?/Ross?
PF Mason/Kelly/Singler/Hairston
C Miles/Mason/Kelly

I am execting Andre to get back to playing 12-15 mpg in most matchups this year and expect Smith's and Singler's minutes to go down a bit next year with Andre showing improvement in the summer between his freshman and sophomore years and getting a chance to spend some time on campus in the summer. We have a great team this year and are looking good for next year, no matter who comes back or if we add anyone else.

[airowe]

If Kyle comes back and we land Terrence Ross, a sophomore Andre would most likely be ahead of a freshman Ross and get significant minutes at both wing positions. I would expect Ross would have trouble getting minutes in that fantastic scenario. Basically, I don't see any addition we make in recruiting having much of a negative impact on Andre's playing time next year, except in blowouts.
If we had positions, this would be my best guess (others may be able to do better):
PG Irving/Curry/Smith/Thornton
SG Smith/Andre/Curry/Ross?
SF Singler/Andre/Hairston?/Ross?
PF Mason/Kelly/Singler/Hairston
C Miles/Mason/Kelly

I am execting Andre to get back to playing 12-15 mpg in most matchups this year and expect Smith's and Singler's minutes to go down a bit next year with Andre showing improvement in the summer between his freshman and sophomore years and getting a chance to spend some time on campus in the summer. We have a great team this year and are looking good for next year, no matter who comes back or if we add anyone else.

Andre will play because he has talent and will be a whole year further experienced playing in games in Duke's system. Historically, the biggest improvement for Duke players have been between their Freshmen and Sophomore years. On Inside Basketball, they were talking about Andre and his adjustment to Duke with no time to get caught up to speed in the Summer. The players talked about how hard it is to grasp the defensive principles that K teaches and that Andre's head was spinning in the first couple of practices. The fact that he was averaging over 18 mpg before the death of his sister should show you how much faith and confidence the coaching staff has in his abilities. While I'm very, very high on Seth Curry, Andre is going to see the floor plenty next year at the 2/3 spot.

1 a)
1 b)

[flyingdutchdevil]

Andre will play because he has talent and will be a whole year further experienced playing in games in Duke's system. Historically, the biggest improvement for Duke players have been between their Freshmen and Sophomore years. On Inside Basketball, they were talking about Andre and his adjustment to Duke with no time to get caught up to speed in the Summer. The players talked about how hard it is to grasp the defensive principles that K teaches and that Andre's head was spinning in the first couple of practices. The fact that he was averaging over 18 mpg before the death of his sister should show you how much faith and confidence the coaching staff has in his abilities. While I'm very, very high on Seth Curry, Andre is going to see the floor plenty next year at the 2/3 spot.

1 a)
1 b)

Historically for basically all programs, the biggest development is between their freshman and soph years.

As they say, the best part about freshman is that they become sophomores next year!

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Is Andre injured or not? It would appear that maybe he is limited in his ability to play long stretches because of some injury or another. Coach K is most likely not going to put him in off the bench, cold, at the end of the game if he didn't have confidence in him. Would he?

GO DUKE!

[PhillyDuke]

Andre is a lot of things - great on the break, better on the 3-pt line. Fantastic teammate, amazing artist (did you see that stick figure of Nolan - very accurate). However, Andre does not like to put the ball on the floor. That either implies that he isn't good at it or he was told not to. Either way, it means that he doesn't have dribbling / PG skills.

Of course he will get better. G as a freshman had awful PG skills and he got considerably better. Dre will be a good guard and a valued asset for Duke. And, you're right, patience is needed. But, as it stands, I have to agree with Boozer that Andre doesn't have PG skills. But I do except that to change. If not this year, then definitely next season.

There is no way coach K recruited a shooting guard who couldn't dribble! There's no way Dawkins was rated as high a shooting guard recruit as he was if he couldn't dribble. In his youtube videos, all he's doing is taking people to the hoop. We don't see him taking it to the hole because coach K wants him cruising around the perimeter looking to shoot three pointers.

[RainingThrees]

During the last game the announcers said that K said Andre wasn't playing well in practice and that was the reason for his lack of recent playing time. Ryan Kelly must be out performing Andre right now which would warrant the swaps in pt. Does Andre get into the UNC game? I don't see it happening although I wish it would.

[DevilHorns]

During the last game the announcers said that K said Andre wasn't playing well in practice and that was the reason for his lack of recent playing time. Ryan Kelly must be out performing Andre right now which would warrant the swaps in pt. Does Andre get into the UNC game? I don't see it happening although I wish it would.

I can definitely see Andre playing against Carolina. Maybe he has worked his butt off after the BC game? Maybe coach is incredibly impressed with him for that? What I'm trying to say is that we do not know what goes on in the locker room. Andre may have really turned it around in practice and he may be rewarded minutes in the Carolina game. And if there is a game that Andre wants to play in, its the friggin Carolina game.

[davekay1971]

Carolina presents Andre with an opportunity to play and make some significant contributions. On the defensive end of the court, Andre can work against a limited offensive player such as Ginyard. On the other end of the court, teams have been able to find open space on the perimeter against Kerlina. Andre might find himself with room to get a good look and we know he can knock them down.

[SupaDave]

Well I think it should be said that Andre's demeanor on the bench was much improved for the BC game. That's a great sign.

[gumbomoop]

Coach K is most likely not going to put him in off the bench, cold, at the end of the game if he didn't have confidence in him. Would he?

I'm assuming K had more confidence in Andre's free throwing shooting than in that of some other players. Even for that limited reason, that might well be a confidence-boost for Andre.

[Lord Ash]

Well I think it should be said that Andre's demeanor on the bench was much improved for the BC game. That's a great sign.

He seemed very happy at the end and was quick to bounce up and greet Nolan and Jon when they came to the bench and at the end of the game.

I really, really hope Andre sticks around, even though he is facing one more guard overall to compete with next year (Scheyer leaving, Irving and Curry both coming in.) I think he has a lot to offer.

[CDu]

He seemed very happy at the end and was quick to bounce up and greet Nolan and Jon when they came to the bench and at the end of the game.

I really, really hope Andre sticks around, even though he is facing one more guard overall to compete with next year (Scheyer leaving, Irving and Curry both coming in.) I think he has a lot to offer.

As has been noted by others, I think Dawkin's prospects for PT will actually go up next year in spite of the arrival of Irving/Curry/Thornton. I believe this for the following reasons:

1. Scheyer leaving opens 35+ mpg for guards
2. I doubt Coach K will ask Smith to play 35+ mpg again next year with more depth available
3. The exit of Thomas and Zoubek will open 40 mpg in the frontcourt
4. Dawkins will be a better player next year

I think #1 will represent the majority of the minutes for Curry and Irving. I think #2 will provide some more minutes for Curry/Dawkins. I think #3 will result in Singler playing more minutes (though not all of his minutes) at the 4 spot, freeing up more wing minutes for Dawkins. And I think #4 will solidify Dawkins's role on the floor.

I'll be surprised if Dawkins isn't in a 20+ mpg role next year as a 2/3 for the team.

[Kedsy]

I'll be surprised if Dawkins isn't in a 20+ mpg role next year as a 2/3 for the team.

I agree. The point in his favor you didn't mention is he should be capable of guarding larger wing players (3s), while Kyrie, Seth, and Nolan probably aren't tall enough.

[Jeffrey]

Coach K is most likely not going to put him in off the bench, cold, at the end of the game if he didn't have confidence in him. Would he?

What are Andre's and Brian's FT percentages this season? When it was time to play D, where was Andre?

[Jeffrey]

I agree. The point in his favor you didn't mention is he should be capable of guarding larger wing players (3s), while Kyrie, Seth, and Nolan probably aren't tall enough.

Are you assuming Kyle is not on next year's team?

[Jeffrey]

3. The exit of Thomas and Zoubek will open 40 mpg in the frontcourt

I think #3 will result in Singler playing more minutes (though not all of his minutes) at the 4 spot, freeing up more wing minutes for Dawkins.

How many minutes, and in what spot(s), do you expect Ryan to play next year?

How many minutes do you expect Miles and Mason to play next year?

[1999ballboy]

As has been noted by others, I think Dawkin's prospects for PT will actually go up next year in spite of the arrival of Irving/Curry/Thornton. I believe this for the following reasons:

1. Scheyer leaving opens 35+ mpg for guards
2. I doubt Coach K will ask Smith to play 35+ mpg again next year with more depth available
3. The exit of Thomas and Zoubek will open 40 mpg in the frontcourt
4. Dawkins will be a better player next year

I think #1 will represent the majority of the minutes for Curry and Irving. I think #2 will provide some more minutes for Curry/Dawkins. I think #3 will result in Singler playing more minutes (though not all of his minutes) at the 4 spot, freeing up more wing minutes for Dawkins. And I think #4 will solidify Dawkins's role on the floor.

I'll be surprised if Dawkins isn't in a 20+ mpg role next year as a 2/3 for the team.
Agreed on all counts. I expect us to be back to a three guard team a lot of the time next year. And Andre will be our only guard who's taller than 6'2, which means he's best suited to play the 3. Of course, his defense, particularly on the perimeter, is going to have to improve in order for his height to become relevant. The only way I see Dawkins' minutes staying down is if Tyler Thornton turns out to be much better than expected.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

How many minutes, and in what spot(s), do you expect Ryan to play next year?

How many minutes do you expect Miles and Mason to play next year?


I think right now there are too many variables to determine what role Ryan will play next year. I know this, he'll get some run because I am sure the strength and conditioning staff will put him on a somewhat rigorous training regimen. How many minutes will get thrown at him I have no idea. We don't know if Singler will be back, how good Hairston will turn out, or if we're going to be bringing in Felix, Zeigler, or TRoss. Stay tuned though because it's a good question.

As for Mason and Miles, I would be very surprised if they don't get 25+ minutes each. With Zoubek and Thomas leaving, there will be plenty more minutes to be thrown around, plus we're not bringing in a big man, with the exception of Hairston, who is more of a 3/4. With those guys as our only legit postmen and the ACC being as physical and big as it is, they'll get their fair share of minutes. I think the better question will be what kind of frontcourt tandems will we see more often?

[pfrduke]

How many minutes, and in what spot(s), do you expect Ryan to play next year?

How many minutes do you expect Miles and Mason to play next year?

Not directed at me, but my thoughts:

Smith: 30-35mpg
Irving: 20-30mpg
Curry: 15-25mpg
Dawkins: 15-25mpg
Thornton: 0-5mpg
Singler: 30-35mpg
Kelly: 5-15mpg
Mason: 15-25mpg
Miles: 15-25mpg
Hairston: 0-10mpg

Since I gave a range, I'm not sure it all adds up to 200, but the basic thought is this: Miles and Mason will split minutes at the 5, with Mason taking a few extra minutes in a 2 Plumlee lineup. Kelly, Hairston, and Singler will take the remaining minutes at the 4. Singler will probably split his time at 3/4, with more minutes one way or the other depending on matchups. That leaves probably 95-105 minutes for four perimeter players. Even if Irving and Smith take 60-75 minutes, that's 30-45 for Dawkins and Curry.

[CDu]

How many minutes, and in what spot(s), do you expect Ryan to play next year?

How many minutes do you expect Miles and Mason to play next year?

Obviously, it's impossible to say with any certainty how the big man minutes will play out. But I anticipate that Singler will split time between the 3 and 4 spot next year. I think the Plumlees will handle the minutes at the 5 spot, and the 4 spot will be split between Singler, Kelly, Mason, and Hairston. The 3 spot will be handled by Singler and Dawkins and potentially any other bigger wing we add.

How many minutes Kelly gets at the 4 will depend upon how much he develops over the summer, as well as how much the Plumlees progress and how ready Hairston is. But I don't see Kelly playing the 3 next year (or thereafter).

It's going to be a deeper team next year, but I don't think that spells trouble for Dawkins. I think he just fits too nicely into what the team is going to want to do next year. I would not be surprised if Singler starts and plays the majority of the minutes at the 3. But I do see him playing some of his minutes at the 4, which leaves plenty of time for Dawkins at the 3 (in addition to the handful of minutes I could see him getting at the 2).

[CDu]

Not directed at me, but my thoughts:

Smith: 30-35mpg
Irving: 20-30mpg
Curry: 15-25mpg
Dawkins: 15-25mpg
Thornton: 0-5mpg
Singler: 30-35mpg
Kelly: 5-15mpg
Mason: 15-25mpg
Miles: 15-25mpg
Hairston: 0-10mpg

Since I gave a range, I'm not sure it all adds up to 200, but the basic thought is this: Miles and Mason will split minutes at the 5, with Mason taking a few extra minutes in a 2 Plumlee lineup. Kelly, Hairston, and Singler will take the remaining minutes at the 4. Singler will probably split his time at 3/4, with more minutes one way or the other depending on matchups. That leaves probably 95-105 minutes for four perimeter players. Even if Irving and Smith take 60-75 minutes, that's 30-45 for Dawkins and Curry.

I pretty much agree with these ranges, though I might put some more variability for Kelly and Hairston. I just have no idea how much (or how little) they might play.

[Jeffrey]

Not directed at me, but my thoughts:

Smith: 30-35mpg
Irving: 20-30mpg
Curry: 15-25mpg
Dawkins: 15-25mpg
Thornton: 0-5mpg
Singler: 30-35mpg
Kelly: 5-15mpg
Mason: 15-25mpg
Miles: 15-25mpg
Hairston: 0-10mpg




I pretty much agree with these ranges.....


I think Mason (who I expect to be our best big next year) and Kelly will get more minutes than listed. If so, I think Singler will get almost all of the minutes at the 3 spot. If Irving is as good as most think, I think he will get almost all of the minutes at the 1 spot. That would not leave many minutes for Curry and Dawkins. Isn't Curry suppose to be playing very well, in practice, this season?

[CDu]

I think Mason (who I expect to be our best big next year) and Kelly will get more minutes than listed. If so, I think Singler will get almost all of the minutes at the 3 spot. If Irving is as good as most think, I think he will get almost all of the minutes at the 1 spot. That would not leave many minutes for Curry and Dawkins. Isn't Curry suppose to be playing very well, in practice, this season?

I don't see Mason topping 25 mpg next year. That'd be a HUGE improvement over this season. I think 20-25 mpg is about right. If he does get more than 25 mpg, I think those minutes come at the expense of Kelly/Hairston/Miles, and not Dawkins. I don't see the combo of the Plumlees, Kelly, and Hairston getting more than 70 mpg next year. If Mason and Kelly both progress as you (and I) hope, then that will simply cut into the minutes for Miles and Hairston. I just don't see Coach K wanting to be as slow defensively at the 4 spot next year. That leaves about 10 mpg for Singler at the 4, and thus about 20-25 mpg for Singler at the 3.

As for Irving, I don't see him topping 30 mpg. Freshmen just don't do this very often. And this is especially true when we have Curry and Smith who have plenty of experience. I think the trio of Irving/Curry/Smith will get 70-75 minutes per game next year, exclusively at the 1 and 2 spots.

That leaves 5-10 mpg at the 2 and 15-20 mpg at the 3. He'll only have Thornton and potentially another big wing to compete with for those minutes. And I suspect that he'll be way ahead of those guys next year in terms of readiness. Thus, I think 20+ mpg is a very reasonable projection for Dawkins.

[BD80]

I think many comments here tend to ignore the academic side of the equation. Andre was essentially a JUNIOR in high school last year and now he is taking a full course load at Duke. Due to the tragedy in his family, he fell behind in his classwork (finals) at the end of last semester, and had to catch up this semester. The classes tend to get harder as you advance. Further, this is the first semester the three freshman have had to prepare for games twice a week, and travel on average once a week.

Let's give the kid a chance to find his equilibrium on and off the court.

[Kedsy]

Are you assuming Kyle is not on next year's team?

I know everyone now thinks Kyle will be back, but I personally believe it's still 50/50, hopefully leaning more toward staying but it depends on the rest of his season and the NBA scouting reports in April.

If he's not back, I think Andre will put in as many minutes at the 3 as anyone. If Kyle is back, I think Andre will still play some 3 when Kyle either sits or moves to the 4. Either way, there are minutes there for Andre alongside two of the smaller guards, which is why I think there should be plenty of minutes for him.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I might be misunderstanding, but a post or two seemed to imply that Andre might not be back next year. It seems that a kid who comes early just to be here to help isn't going to take off because of some rough patches in playing time. Granted, I don't know Andre personally or anything like that. I still feel he will get some play this year (when?). I also feel that a death in one's immediate family is not something that can just be put at the back of the mind. I will admit that I tend to like three point shooters and still dream of finding that special woman in my life who likes the name "Trajan" for a son, though "Michael" or "Gene" or maybe "JJ" sounds good to me too. :)

GO DUKE!

[CDu]

I know everyone now thinks Kyle will be back, but I personally believe it's still 50/50, hopefully leaning more toward staying but it depends on the rest of his season and the NBA scouting reports in April.

If he's not back, I think Andre will put in as many minutes at the 3 as anyone. If Kyle is back, I think Andre will still play some 3 when Kyle either sits or moves to the 4. Either way, there are minutes there for Andre alongside two of the smaller guards, which is why I think there should be plenty of minutes for him.

If Singlers making the decision to go or stay based on draft position, I think that there's a lot more than a 50% chance he'll be back next year. I don't think he'll be a lottery pick, and I think there won't be any guarantee that he's a first-round pick. I don't know that staying another year will necessarily improve his draft chances, but that's my thinking on the matter. Obviously, he could decide to stay or go for any number of reasons, draft position being just one of those.

I completely agree with the rest. If Singler goes to the NBA, Dawkins is looking at a shot at 25+ mpg with Kelly, Hairston, the other guards, and any other big wing we pick up this year filling the rest. If Singler does return, I think the minutes get pinched from those other guys first and then from Dawkins at the 3. I still see him getting 20+ mpg if he's ready.

Basically, given his size and skill set, I don't see Dawkins hurting for minutes next year regardless of whether Singler stays or goes. If Singler goes, then I think the sky is the limit in terms of available minutes for Dawkins.

[OldSchool]

Assuming Kyle leaves:

1. Kyrie/Nolan

2. Nolan/Seth/Andre

3. Andre/Ryan or Ryan/Andre

4. Mason/Ryan

5. Miles/Mason

We will have a three guard lineup with Kyrie, Nolan, and Andre with Seth getting starter’s equivalent minutes, Tyler bringing depth.

We will have a three big lineup with Ryan, Mason, and Miles. With this lineup Josh even though a frosh will have to be able to step in and provide depth.

Which lineup will prove more effective remains to be seen and will depend on matchups with particular opponents.

Kyrie and Mason both 30+ minutes.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

where is kyle going?

[roywhite]

where is kyle going?

He's going on a personal campaign to stamp out trolls. Beware.

[airowe]

During the last game the announcers said that K said Andre wasn't playing well in practice and that was the reason for his lack of recent playing time. Ryan Kelly must be out performing Andre right now which would warrant the swaps in pt. Does Andre get into the UNC game? I don't see it happening although I wish it would.

Andre will play on Wednesday.

He knows what is expected of him and owned up to not living up to his, his coaches', and his team's expectations in front of the team very recently. It speaks volumes of the young man to realize the onus is on him. I expect him to be a valuable contributor for Duke for the rest of this season, next season, the season after that, and the season after that (if we're lucky!)

[ricks68]

Andre will play on Wednesday.

He knows what is expected of him and owned up to not living up to his, his coaches', and his team's expectations in front of the team very recently. It speaks volumes of the young man to realize the onus is on him. I expect him to be a valuable contributor for Duke for the rest of this season, next season, the season after that, and the season after that (if we're lucky!)

Very informative post. Now, if someone (like me, for example) would just point out that for a number of games in a row at the beginning of his playing time drop off, Andre would start limping just after being put in, and then got pulled, maybe we could put things to rest on this subject and the mods could close this thread.:o

ricks

[oldnavy]

I am thinking that the UNC game would suite Andre. UNC plays very poor perimeter defense, leaving spot up shooters wide open. This is in Andre's wheelhouse. Also, they are not a very effective pressing team, and I doubt that they will try to press us, and if they do, I predict that we break it with ease. And finally, I do not think that Andre would be as big of a defensive liability against the UNC guards as he may have been in some other contests. I may be 180 degrees off here, but it would not surprise me to see Andre get some significant PT and drop a couple of 3's...

[RoyalBlue08]

I am thinking that the UNC game would suite Andre. UNC plays very poor perimeter defense, leaving spot up shooters wide open. This is in Andre's wheelhouse. Also, they are not a very effective pressing team, and I doubt that they will try to press us, and if they do, I predict that we break it with ease. And finally, I do not think that Andre would be as big of a defensive liability against the UNC guards as he may have been in some other contests. I may be 180 degrees off here, but it would not surprise me to see Andre get some significant PT and drop a couple of 3's...

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to post. There is GREAT matchup for Andre to see some valuable minutes. Not to mention the hype surrounding the game might cause our starters to need a bit more of a rest than normal, as they may go even harder than they normally do. I would be surprised if Andre doesn't play some significant minutes in the first half, assuming he is taking care of business in practice this week.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I am thinking that the UNC game would suite Andre. UNC plays very poor perimeter defense, leaving spot up shooters wide open. This is in Andre's wheelhouse. Also, they are not a very effective pressing team, and I doubt that they will try to press us, and if they do, I predict that we break it with ease. And finally, I do not think that Andre would be as big of a defensive liability against the UNC guards as he may have been in some other contests. I may be 180 degrees off here, but it would not surprise me to see Andre get some significant PT and drop a couple of 3's...

I totally agree with you. If/When Andre gets in the game, it will be great if he can hit his first shot and get that swagger and confidence back in his offensive abilities. I still feel we haven't seen his complete game yet. In several of his youtube videos he showed a knack for taking the ball to the rim and often times slamming it home. I eagerly await for his full arsenal of skills to come on display...Wednesday night at UNC would be as fine a place as any to unleash his total package! Go Duke! (We gotta get this W):D

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

OK Andre...in about 10 hours, it's your time to shine! Let that smooth "J" rain 3's in Chapel Hill! Get pumped! Let's Go Duke!!!

[roywhite]

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/03/his-hype-his-heartache-his-revival

Really nice article on Andre Dawkins and all he's been through.


"There are always times when you second-guess your decision," Dawkins said. "But ultimately, I feel like I made the right decision. I'm happy here. I have a family here. If I could do it all again, I would.

"Sometimes I walk around campus and I'm like, 'Wow, I'm at Duke University playing basketball.' It's pretty surreal, to be honest."

[Bob Green]

Really nice article on Andre Dawkins and all he's been through.

Thanks for posting the link. I really enjoyed reading the article. Dawkins has made four 3-pointers in the last three games. I take that as a sign he is breaking out of his slump at the right time of the year. We will need him to knock down a few more this weekend in order to win the ACCT.

[hq2]

Yeah, he's picking it up at the right time. All of us ought to thank him for just being here this year; we sure needed help in the backcourt, and he gave us
some. Hopefully, he give us some more.

[DeBlueDevil]

Awesome article...thanks for the link....Andre is truly going to be something special not only for the rest of this year but also next year when he truly will have to be out on the court a large number of minutes and has a better chance to get in a groove. Stories like this is why I love duke basketball....it is about family and overcoming the odds...this is just another story from behind the scenes that shows why Duke basketball is special.

[weezie]

Bless Dre's heart. He's our youngest Devil and we love him.

The Pilot does some terrific sports reporting, far, far better than most large newspapers. We always look forward to getting down to the beach and reading their sports section. Unlike the tiresome, partisan, bloviated WaPo, The Pilot actually has legit athletes to discuss in Hampton Roads.

[stillcrazie]

I was actually disappointed to read about his work ethic; you always have to prove yourself at every level, and you'd think he would have come in knowing that and being especially anxious to show that he belonged. Let's hope his new work ethic sticks.

[davekay1971]

I was actually disappointed to read about his work ethic; you always have to prove yourself at every level, and you'd think he would have come in knowing that and being especially anxious to show that he belonged. Let's hope his new work ethic sticks.


Yeah, I know when I was eighteen, I had a killer work ethic day in and day out. I certainly never made the mistake of letting early success make me comfortable. :rolleyes:

[CDu]

I was actually disappointed to read about his work ethic; you always have to prove yourself at every level, and you'd think he would have come in knowing that and being especially anxious to show that he belonged. Let's hope his new work ethic sticks.

You have to remember that he's still a kid. Most kids don't have the best work ethic. It's very rare to see an 18-year-old walk on to campus already prepared to do what it takes to be great.

[jv001]

Andre is a special young man and I'm glad he chose Duke University. What a terrible situation to be put in at such a young age. I'm so glad he had the coaching staff, teammates and his Christian faith to get him through those difficult days. Go Duke!

[Mal]

You have to remember that he's still a kid. Most kids don't have the best work ethic. It's very rare to see an 18-year-old walk on to campus already prepared to do what it takes to be great.

...as the prof from my first semester freshman year Calc II course can surely attest.

[stillcrazie]

You have to remember that he's still a kid. Most kids don't have the best work ethic. It's very rare to see an 18-year-old walk on to campus already prepared to do what it takes to be great.

I get that he is young, but I also think he is not too young to see his upperclassmen working hard and understand that he needs to emulate that if he wants to grow as a player.

[SMO]

I get that he is young, but I also think he is not too young to see his upperclassmen working hard and understand that he needs to emulate that if he wants to grow as a player.

One's work ethic can be compromised by tragic events and/or major adjustments. It would be unfair to evaluate his work ethic without considering his personal circumstances.

[BD80]

I get that he is young, but I also think he is not too young to see his upperclassmen working hard and understand that he needs to emulate that if he wants to grow as a player.

This is where losing Lance, Jon and Brian will really hurt.

I am not sure that Kyle and Nolan have that same leadership to inspire the younger players, and the younger players don't seem to have yet demonstrated the work ethic we need to win a championship.

I do believe that the coaching staff will focus on the issue within 10 minutes of the conclusion of our last game this year.

[CDu]

This is where losing Lance, Jon and Brian will really hurt.

I am not sure that Kyle and Nolan have that same leadership to inspire the younger players, and the younger players don't seem to have yet demonstrated the work ethic we need to win a championship.

I do believe that the coaching staff will focus on the issue within 10 minutes of the conclusion of our last game this year.

I wouldn't rule out that Smith and Singler can fill a leadership role next year. Smith seems to have taken on a leadership role with Dawkins this year in the wake of the tragedy. I'm not sure that Zoubek, Thomas, and Scheyer showed necessarily any more leadership qualities than Singler or Smith through their first three years. That's not intended as a knock of our three seniors, just meant to not minimize the capabilities of our two juniors.

[Devil07]

I get that he is young, but I also think he is not too young to see his upperclassmen working hard and understand that he needs to emulate that if he wants to grow as a player.

And he has...I don't see the point of harping on the fact that he didn't do so immediately. There is an adjustment period for every player when they come to college. Remember, Andre wasn't able to come to summer school. A large reason why Duke has the guys come in early is so that they can get some of that adjusting done before games start. Andre didn't have that experience and so he learned the lesson later than maybe he would have otherwise. Sure, some players are mature beyond their years, but most probably learn the hard way (and as has been pointed out, the same thing probably goes for many non-athletes who were academic stars in high school but get to college and realize that they've got to step it up). Andre has clearly learned that lesson and managed to do so while also dealing with some pretty intense personal issues. That's terrific and in my book is good enough for me, even if he did have to learn it the hard way.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This is where losing Lance, Jon and Brian will really hurt.

I am not sure that Kyle and Nolan have that same leadership to inspire the younger players, and the younger players don't seem to have yet demonstrated the work ethic we need to win a championship.

I do believe that the coaching staff will focus on the issue within 10 minutes of the conclusion of our last game this year.

I disagree. I think Nolan will be a great leader. He is goofy, but so is Zoubs (I remember someone calling him the goofiest guy in Duke bball history. That's saying something!). With two seasoned veterans like Nolan and Kyle, I don't think leadership will be an issue. Plus, I don't see many, if any, chemistry issues next year (that's where vocal leadership would really help). Nolan and Kyle will lead by example, which is the best way to lead a team, IMO.

[Channing]

This is where losing Lance, Jon and Brian will really hurt.

I am not sure that Kyle and Nolan have that same leadership to inspire the younger players, and the younger players don't seem to have yet demonstrated the work ethic we need to win a championship.

I do believe that the coaching staff will focus on the issue within 10 minutes of the conclusion of our last game this year.

not sure where you get this notion that Kyle and Nolan arent strong leaders. Kyle is the epitome of hustle and Nolan already has the leadership quality of wanting to take the big shot. I certainly dont look at Lance or Zoubek and say they are better leaders than Kyle or Nolan.

I am also not sure how you have insight into the younger guys' work ethic. Have you read anywhere that Miles, Mason, or Ryan don't bust their hump in practice?
I just find this a very curious point.

[stillcrazie]

And he has...I don't see the point of harping on the fact that he didn't do so immediately. There is an adjustment period for every player when they come to college. Remember, Andre wasn't able to come to summer school. A large reason why Duke has the guys come in early is so that they can get some of that adjusting done before games start. Andre didn't have that experience and so he learned the lesson later than maybe he would have otherwise. Sure, some players are mature beyond their years, but most probably learn the hard way (and as has been pointed out, the same thing probably goes for many non-athletes who were academic stars in high school but get to college and realize that they've got to step it up). Andre has clearly learned that lesson and managed to do so while also dealing with some pretty intense personal issues. That's terrific and in my book is good enough for me, even if he did have to learn it the hard way.

Repeated criticisms? That is not what I was up to, but I am concerned that he came in a little lax, even before the death of his sister. The article above says so:

"After practice, when Dawkins' teammates stayed to get extra work on their shots, "I was gone."

He remembers the coaches warning him: At some point, the shots are going to stop falling.

"Being a freshman, I didn't want to hear that," Dawkins said. "I definitely fell into that trap. "

But coaches like Krzyzewski tend to be right in these situations. After his hot start, Dawkins' season spiraled. Over the next 14 games, he averaged barely nine minutes. He hit just 14.7 percent of his shots, going 3 for 22 from deep.

Fans, wondering what was wrong, found an easy answer in the death of his sister."

I am 100% behind Dawkins and am hoping he got the message and has a great ACC/NCAA tournament!

[CDu]

Repeated criticisms? That is not what I was up to, but I am concerned that he came in a little lax, even before the death of his sister. The article above says so:

Right. But the point is that he's a kid, and kids often think they've got it all figured out when they don't. I don't think it's a reason for disappointment. I'd have been surprised if he did have it all figured out.

The fact that he's since realized his mistakes and is working hard to correct them says more to me than the fact that he didn't get it right away.

[stillcrazie]

Right. But the point is that he's a kid, and kids often think they've got it all figured out when they don't. I don't think it's a reason for disappointment. I'd have been surprised if he did have it all figured out.

The fact that he's since realized his mistakes and is working hard to correct them says more to me than the fact that he didn't get it right away.

Thanks, yeah, I am counting on it!

[cato]

I am 100% behind Dawkins and am hoping he got the message and has a great ACC/NCAA tournament!

This is kind of silly. Of course he got the message -- otherwise you wouldn't be reading the article.

[Devil07]

Repeated criticisms? That is not what I was up to, but I am concerned that he came in a little lax, even before the death of his sister. The article above says so:

I am 100% behind Dawkins and am hoping he got the message and has a great ACC/NCAA tournament!

I agree that repeated criticisms was poorly worded on my part, that's why I edited it out. I wasn't trying to call you out. My point is that he learned his lesson so why be concerned that he came in a little lax. He's not now and given what we've seen from him I see no reason to presume that he'll take it easy now that he's achieving some measure of success. Almost all freshmen go through this process to some degree or another. I'm happy that Andre has grown and didn't see any reason to concern myself with why he didn't do it sooner - that's all in the past as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I'm not trying to derail the thread with a difference of opinion on this. You're entitled to your opinion, but I did want to clarify what I meant.

[stillcrazie]

I agree that repeated criticisms was poorly worded on my part, that's why I edited it out. I wasn't trying to call you out. My point is that he learned his lesson so why be concerned that he came in a little lax. He's not now and given what we've seen from him I see no reason to presume that he'll take it easy now that he's achieving some measure of success. Almost all freshmen go through this process to some degree or another. I'm happy that Andre has grown and didn't see any reason to concern myself with why he didn't do it sooner - that's all in the past as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I'm not trying to derail the thread with a difference of opinion on this. You're entitled to your opinion, but I did want to clarify what I meant.

I appreciate it; thanks.

[BD80]

not sure where you get this notion that Kyle and Nolan arent strong leaders. Kyle is the epitome of hustle and Nolan already has the leadership quality of wanting to take the big shot. I certainly dont look at Lance or Zoubek and say they are better leaders than Kyle or Nolan.

I am also not sure how you have insight into the younger guys' work ethic. Have you read anywhere that Miles, Mason, or Ryan don't bust their hump in practice?
I just find this a very curious point.

I didn't say they weren't strong leaders, I just said I wasn't sure they were as strong as our current seniors. I believe that Jon is one of our mentally toughest players in years. Coach K gushes about Lance as a leader, and Lance is the consumate role player. Zoubek stands as a great example of what can happen if you keep doing what the caoches tell you.

My point was: we are losing a lot in leadership.

It is often difficult to tell what type of a leader a person will be until placed in that role. I think it is fair to say that none of the returning players has yet proven that they are natural leaders that the other players tend to defer to. That could be because of the strong personalities of our upperclassmen. Frankly, Kyrie could be that type of natural leader.

I have great hope for Nolan as a leader, he certainly has the personality, and it appears that he relates well to the underclassmen. Nolan has also stepped up and said he is returning next year. Nolan has also been blossoming as a player during his time here. I see him as the clear leader next year.

It seems to me that Kyle relates more to the upperclassmen than the underclassmen. I have no idea what Kyle is like in practice or off the court, so I would love to hear reports of his leadership abilities.

The undersclassmen have been struggling to get on the court. Much of the problem has been mental, as they have proven to have the physical ability to do what is being requested. They may be "busting their humps," but they hadn't been doing what they need to do to get on the court and stay on the court. That is what I meant by "work ethic."

Again, I think that Coach K and his staff will develop leaders for next year. That is entirely what West Point is all about. We just shouldn't lose track of what we are losing when our seniors leave, and expect the same level and type of leadership at the beginning of next year.

[CDu]

My point was: we are losing a lot in leadership.

It is often difficult to tell what type of a leader a person will be until placed in that role. I think it is fair to say that none of the returning players has yet proven that they are natural leaders that the other players tend to defer to. That could be because of the strong personalities of our upperclassmen. Frankly, Kyrie could be that type of natural leader.

I'd counter that I'm not sure we saw these leadership qualities from our current seniors prior to this year. So there's no reason to assume we won't get that kind of leadership from Singler and Smith next year.


I have great hope for Nolan as a leader, he certainly has the personality, and it appears that he relates well to the underclassmen. Nolan has also stepped up and said he is returning next year. Nolan has also been blossoming as a player during his time here. I see him as the clear leader next year.

I agree, and his interactions with Dawkins this year would suggest that he's already showing leadership characteristics.

I think we've gotten great leadership from the seniors. And I think we'll get great leadership from the senior(s) next year as well.

[Nugget]

The nit-picking about Andre's "work ethic" is extraordinarily unseemly under the circumstances.

But, it is also worth remembering similar stories about how much harder JJ Redick and Chris Duhon worked as upperclassmen than they did as freshmen. Who is to say Andre won't develop similarly?

Not everyone comes to college as mature and committed as a Battier, for example.

That kind of development is, for some, part of the process of growing up, and why we love following these guys over the course of four years.

[BlueDvl817]

...What a great article. Many big time college basketball players struggle in their freshman and even sophomore seasons to adjust their work ethic and adapt to the intensity of the college game. To expect perfection from an 18-year-old kid is ridiculous, especially considering that Andre has been forced to deal with one of the most tragic events a person can experience this year. I take it as a sign of maturity that he admitted to not giving it his all initially and made the decision to revamp his work ethic - and it's shown in his play lately. Let's hope he continues to improve down the stretch. He seems like such a good fit for Duke, and I have a feeling we're going to have a lot fun watching this kid grow up over the next few years in a Duke uniform.

[Channing]

Andre seems to be getting a little bit of flash back in his offensive game. His drive the other night was beautiful, and he is looking to pull the trigger on threes when they are there. I am hoping for some solid contributions out of him during the tournament. With the grind of games in short periods of time, he will be needed.

[Lord Ash]

The nit-picking about Andre's "work ethic" is extraordinarily unseemly under the circumstances.

But, it is also worth remembering similar stories about how much harder JJ Redick and Chris Duhon worked as upperclassmen than they did as freshmen. Who is to say Andre won't develop similarly?

Not everyone comes to college as mature and committed as a Battier, for example.

That kind of development is, for some, part of the process of growing up, and why we love following these guys over the course of four years.

It seemed pretty clear to me that the "nit picking," as you call it, was a ploy by the coaches to get Andre snapped out of his own mind and back into the basketball world. Sounds like it worked very well.

It is natural for frosh to go through a lot of what Andre went through as far as practice habits and the like; given what happened with his sister, it is even more understandable. So glad to hear Andre felt supported at Duke during such a tough time, and I am so glad we'll have him at Duke in the years to come.

[Greg_Newton]

"After practice, when Dawkins' teammates stayed to get extra work on their shots, "I was gone."

He remembers the coaches warning him: At some point, the shots are going to stop falling.

"Being a freshman, I didn't want to hear that," Dawkins said. "I definitely fell into that trap."

What a great kid. That fact that he's already able to realize this, take responsibilty for it, and publicly admit it shows a lot about his character.

It's reassuring to read that he fully understands what caused his decrease in PT/production, and that he has corrected it. It seemed like a very strange situation from the outside, so I'm just glad to see that everyone's on the same page now. He'll be just fine.

[94duke]

So, does his performance against Ga Tech count as being back in the flow?
:)

[duke4life32182]

He played great yesterday. That dunk was awesome. Didn't expect that. Hope he continues that play.

[Channing]

even more than his 7 point outburst, he was catching and shooting with confidence. Yea, his first 2 or 3 shots didnt go down, but he kept looking for his shot (although maybe he can put the turnaround fadeaway on hold for a year or two).

I guess I missed it, but I didnt realize he could create so well off the dribble.

[Matches]

If he can chip in 10-12 minutes per game the rest of the way and play with the confidence he displayed on Sunday, it will be a HUGE boost.

[CDu]

If he can chip in 10-12 minutes per game the rest of the way and play with the confidence he displayed on Sunday, it will be a HUGE boost.

Agreed. I think its safe to say that barring injury or foul trouble we're going to see the big 3 on the floor for 35+ minutes per game. So there aren't likely to be much more than 10-15 minutes available to Dawkins. But if he can build off the confidence he gained this past weekend, that'll be a huge boost to the team.

[BigZ]

Seconds before the end of the first half tonight in Houston the Freshmen from Virginia hit a 3 pointer that brought Duke within 3 points. Duke then went on to win the ball game, without that shot Duke might have been down too far to recover. Dawkins had another 3 ball earlier in the contest but the thing that I want to appreciate Andre for is nothing on the court. It has been truly unremarkable what Andre has had to come over this season with the loss of his sister. Dawkins early in the season was one of Duke's best scorers than he lost his sister and went through a long stretch of not producing at a high level and nobody could blame him. Since the start of the ACC tournament he has been nothing but great on the court once again but during this whole season he has shown nothing but true heart and inspiration for the rest of the Devils. I would like to wish Andre nothing but the best for him and his family and say thank you as on the behalf of Blue Devil Nation.

[G man]

I am so glad we have Andre. He played a big role in todays game he stepped and drilled some shots I hope this helps him get rolling in INDY! To come in on spot minutes in a tough tourney game and shoot that well..... All I can say dang I am glad he came a year early!

[G man]

Seconds before the end of the first half tonight in Houston the Freshmen from Virginia hit a 3 pointer that brought Duke within 3 points. Duke then went on to win the ball game, without that shot Duke might have been down too far to recover. Dawkins had another 3 ball earlier in the contest but the thing that I want to appreciate Andre for is nothing on the court. It has been truly unremarkable what Andre has had to come over this season with the loss of his sister. Dawkins early in the season was one of Duke's best scorers than he lost his sister and went through a long stretch of not producing at a high level and nobody could blame him. Since the start of the ACC tournament he has been nothing but great on the court once again but during this whole season he has shown nothing but true heart and inspiration for the rest of the Devils. I would like to wish Andre nothing but the best for him and his family and say thank you as on the behalf of Blue Devil Nation.


Amen he sure has been good for this team.

[superdave]

I am so glad we have Andre. He played a big role in todays game he stepped and drilled some shots I hope this helps him get rolling in INDY! To come in on spot minutes in a tough tourney game and shoot that well..... All I can say dang I am glad he came a year early!

We would have been down 8-9 at half without Andre today. He is playing a big role right now.

[wallyman]

what a cast of characters. but absolutely, no there's way to do justice to andre's contribtion to the game and guts and class during the year.

[Kedsy]

It has been truly unremarkable what Andre has had to come over this season with the loss of his sister.

I assume you meant "remarkable," or perhaps "unbelievable"?

Either way, I agree that Andre has been through the crucible and has emerged on the other side with his head held high. His two threes today showed confidence and a little swagger, especially that one from 25 feet.

Hopefully, he'll be able to contribute to Duke's championship run, but whether he can or not, he's going to be a great player for us next year and beyond.

[Mcluhan]

Sure is nice to have the sweetest stroke in the nation coming off the bench.

Those were bold shots taken by a bold young man today.

[dukelifer]

I am so glad we have Andre. He played a big role in todays game he stepped and drilled some shots I hope this helps him get rolling in INDY! To come in on spot minutes in a tough tourney game and shoot that well..... All I can say dang I am glad he came a year early!

Andre contributed as did Miles and Mason. This will soon be their team and this run will pay huge dividends next year. But there is still more ball to play.

[cptnflash]

Just rewatched the game, and I can't say enough about Andre's 3 with 30 seconds left in the first half. Baylor had ALL of the momentum. They were on a 10-0 run, which included several dunks. Duke had turned the ball over on 3 of our last 4 possessions. The last one included a behind the back pass which led to a Baylor 3. The place was going nuts. And with all that happening, Andre calmly took a pass from Jon and nailed a 3. The crowd went silent, we got a stop to end the half, and then tied it up on the first possession of the second half. Total game changer. Way to go Andre!!

[buzz]

Hopefully, he'll be able to contribute to Duke's championship run, but whether he can or not, he's going to be a great player for us next year and beyond.

That huge 3 before the half was a game-changer, so I'd say he already has. Agree with the sentiment though. It would be great to see Dre have his moment in the spotlight on the way to an NCAA title, considering all he's been through. Perhaps a Dunleavy vs Arizona type of moment with the 3s splashing down one after another.

[BD80]

Yeah, but the clueless freshman that he is, he was out there guarding a 6'10" forward!

What? He was supposed to be guarding a 6'10" forward? And he did well?

I believe the ONLY reason Andre isn't getting more PT is that Coach K is so confident in the experience of Kyle, Nolan and Jon. Andre has really impressed me with how eveything seems to have "clicked." I am no longer terrified about backcourt foul issues.

The only one to seem "lost" was Mason. Twice. On the exact same play. AArrrgghhh. Bet anyone a dollar that WVU runs that exact play every time Mason is in.

[ElSid]

That huge 3 before the half was a game-changer, so I'd say he already has. Agree with the sentiment though. It would be great to see Dre have his moment in the spotlight on the way to an NCAA title, considering all he's been through. Perhaps a Dunleavy vs Arizona type of moment with the 3s splashing down one after another.

the threes he hit tonight were big enough for a freshman.

highlight of the game for me, seeing those go through. and such big baskets. he'll be rewarded for his efforts eventually, on an individual basis.

right now, no one can dispute that we're in the best position to win the game with scheyer, singler, and smith on the floor.

HUGE contribution from Dawkins tonight and I couldn't be happier, though.

[GODUKEGO]

After what Andre and his family have been through this year, it was great knowing his family was there rooting for him and Duke. I really hope that he can hit some big ones for us on Monday.

[SupaDave]

After what Andre and his family have been through this year, it was great knowing his family was there rooting for him and Duke. I really hope that he can hit some big ones for us on Monday.

Just a wonderful post for so many reasons...