Duke and Wall

[bigblue586]

I know Tysiac did his whole thing in the paper today (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/297988.html), but a fellow T '09er and I wrote this up yesterday from more of a media perspective over at http://npinopunintended.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/the-double-bonus-its-a-wall-world-after-all/

We're interested in getting Duke fans' takes: Would the media's (and the population's) perception of Wall be different had he gone to Duke? And how so?

[CDu]

I know Tysiac did his whole thing in the paper today (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/297988.html), but a fellow T '09er and I wrote this up yesterday from more of a media perspective over at http://npinopunintended.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/the-double-bonus-its-a-wall-world-after-all/

We're interested in getting Duke fans' takes: Would the media's (and the population's) perception of Wall be different had he gone to Duke? And how so?

I think moreso the media's perception of Duke would be different if he'd gone to Wall.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I hate playing this game partially because it's centered around John Wall who is billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but also because a lot of teams can play this game year in and year out so it's not fair. You can write this same article with regards to Gerald Henderson and/or Elliot Williams. Both of whom would have been just as big as Wall. That's all I am saying.

[ajgoodfella7]

I know Tysiac did his whole thing in the paper today (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/297988.html), but a fellow T '09er and I wrote this up yesterday from more of a media perspective over at http://npinopunintended.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/the-double-bonus-its-a-wall-world-after-all/

We're interested in getting Duke fans' takes: Would the media's (and the population's) perception of Wall be different had he gone to Duke? And how so?

I would say that that is a safe assumption. I don't think people look at John Wall in a certain way because he plays for Kentucky. I think people look at him in a certain way because he plays for Kentucky under John Calipari. Whether or not it is fair for people to judge Calipari today based on his past transgressions I guess is really up to the individual. But fair or not, I think people look at Calipari's programs as a placeholder for a year until top players are eligible for the draft. I think the public perception of Duke under K is much different. I don't blame Calipari himself because the players would likely be doing the same thing regardless of where they went.

[Atlanta Duke]

We're interested in getting Duke fans' takes: Would the media's (and the population's) perception of Wall be different had he gone to Duke? And how so?

Well, if he went to Duke Wall would benefit from having K praise him, as opposed to this laugh out loud comment from K in the Tysiac article

"I don't talk about friends that I didn't have or women that I didn't marry," Krzyzewski said earlier this week. "So I don't talk about players that I don't coach.":D

[flyingdutchdevil]

I hate playing this game partially because it's centered around John Wall who is billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but also because a lot of teams can play this game year in and year out so it's not fair. You can write this same article with regards to Gerald Henderson and/or Elliot Williams. Both of whom would have been just as big as Wall. That's all I am saying.

For the record, Wall is the most exciting college player since Durant. He is exciting the media and college fans everywhere, and is a great asset to the game of college basketball. I, like many, wish we had him. He is more talented than both Hendo or Elliot Williams and deserves the credit that he is receiving. You can dislike Kentucky and Calipari all you like (and understandably), but Wall is a phenom player and one of a kind.

If Duke had Wall, I think people would hate us more. And that is great. Duke functions at its best when we are hated. Kentucky is so damn lucky to have him.

[uh_no]

For the record, Wall is the most exciting college player since Durant.

That makes it a whopping 2 years?

[verga]

has anyone had a look at Kentucky's schedule this year, it just seems a very soft one and when they have played semi talented teams they have struggled. I don't miss having Wall at Duke, we'll do fine without him and in the long run he made the right choice for himself.

[tele]

That is a great quote from coach K, thanks for posting it. I would have otherwise missed seeing it.

[Coballs]

I hate playing this game partially because it's centered around John Wall who is billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but also because a lot of teams can play this game year in and year out so it's not fair. You can write this same article with regards to Gerald Henderson and/or Elliot Williams. Both of whom would have been just as big as Wall. That's all I am saying.

Are you joking? Wall is as talented as Iverson and Isiah Thomas...if not better. Please don't compare him to G or E-Mail. They were/are above average college players...nothing more. I can't downplay Wall's talent just because he's playing for Cal at UK. Barring an injury, he's looking like a perennial NBA All-Star.

[Coballs]

And one more thing...I love watching him play because he is as exciting as it gets. Jason Williams can compare, but even he wasn't this dominant in his first year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

That makes it a whopping 2 years?

Technically, the players are four years apart ;)

That said, they are both one of a kind players. I'll put it a different way - who was the last great college PG? IMO, I'd have to put Wall above JWIll

[Indoor66]

Technically, the players are four years apart ;)

That said, they are both one of a kind players. I'll put it a different way - who was the last great college PG? IMO, I'd have to put Wall above JWIll

Maybe, but not yet. He has to win a lot more games.

[mr. synellinden]

I'll put it a different way - who was the last great college PG?

How about Derrick Rose?

One of the reasons Wall is getting this much attention is because there really aren't that many stars in the college game that have been around or are well known names - which is primarily a function of early entry.

Harangody doesn't have star power.

Nobody ever heard of Wesley Johnson before this year.

Texas' has a few very good, but not great players. Same with Kansas.

[CDu]

Technically, the players are four years apart ;)

That said, they are both one of a kind players. I'll put it a different way - who was the last great college PG? IMO, I'd have to put Wall above JWIll

Not ready to say he's a better college PG than Williams as a sophomore/junior. When comparing both as freshman I'd say Wall is definitely further along. And with his added height and length I can certainly see a higher ceiling. But let's not jump the gun just yet.

[Olympic Fan]

Every night, I get down on my hands and knees and thank God that we didn't get John Wall.

That has nothing to do with his basketball ability. I'm not sure he's the greatest thing since Durant -- but he's up there with Derrick Rose and Ty Lawson as a great point guard (Rose is a good comparison ... Wall is better than Lawson was as a freshman, not as good as Lawson was last season).

But as a Duke grad, it made me sick to see Duke prostitute itself to pursue an academic fraud like Wall (and I said so on this forum long before he wound up at Kentucky). I used to argue that K and Duke had higher standards than the mass of college basketball programs -- I haven't argued that since we went after Mr. Wall. I can defend the academic flexibility we showed to sign guys like Will Avery and Sean Dockery, but both guys jumped through some pretty impressive academic hoops at the end of their prep careers to prove that they deserved a chance. There was no such commitment from Wall -- there hardly could be as long as he was at Word of God (a sham of a school that makes Mt. Zion look like Exeter Academy).

Yeah, Wall might have brought us a national title ... but it would have come at a price I didn't want to pay. I can see the argument that it doesn't matter -- nobody in the media is willing to look behind the curtains (nobody questioned Rose's academic status either).

[RoyalBlue08]

Every night, I get down on my hands and knees and thank God that we didn't get John Wall.

That has nothing to do with his basketball ability. I'm not sure he's the greatest thing since Durant -- but he's up there with Derrick Rose and Ty Lawson as a great point guard (Rose is a good comparison ... Wall is better than Lawson was as a freshman, not as good as Lawson was last season).

But as a Duke grad, it made me sick to see Duke prostitute itself to pursue an academic fraud like Wall (and I said so on this forum long before he wound up at Kentucky). I used to argue that K and Duke had higher standards than the mass of college basketball programs -- I haven't argued that since we went after Mr. Wall. I can defend the academic flexibility we showed to sign guys like Will Avery and Sean Dockery, but both guys jumped through some pretty impressive academic hoops at the end of their prep careers to prove that they deserved a chance. There was no such commitment from Wall -- there hardly could be as long as he was at Word of God (a sham of a school that makes Mt. Zion look like Exeter Academy).

Yeah, Wall might have brought us a national title ... but it would have come at a price I didn't want to pay. I can see the argument that it doesn't matter -- nobody in the media is willing to look behind the curtains (nobody questioned Rose's academic status either).

Great post. Couldn't agree more.

[DevilHorns]

Every night, I get down on my hands and knees and thank God that we didn't get John Wall.

But as a Duke grad, it made me sick to see Duke prostitute itself to pursue an academic fraud like Wall (and I said so on this forum long before he wound up at Kentucky).

Yeah, Wall might have brought us a national title ... but it would have come at a price I didn't want to pay. I can see the argument that it doesn't matter -- nobody in the media is willing to look behind the curtains (nobody questioned Rose's academic status either).

This is a bit much. How are you so sure that Wall doesn't meet Duke academic standards? How are you so sure his academic status is in question at all? I know he is with Coach Cal, and I know he's called the next Rose, but that doesn't necessarily mean he IS the next Rose in terms of academics.

Any time Duke lands big recruits with academic backgrounds not as strong as the Duke student body (hint, pretty much every player we have ever recruited), are we "prostituting" ourselves for the sake of winning and the program? Student-athletes are not held to the same academic standards as Duke students. Its a simple fact. Its a no-brainer.

If Wall does end up having academic eligibility issues (such as Rose), then I definitely agree with you. Duke would've stooped to a new low by recruiting him. However, if it turns out the boy is simply an average student with average h.s. grades (I've seen reports out there in some of these threads over the summer that he actually was "adequate" academically), then I don't think Duke was at all doing anything out of reason. We recruit student-athletes. In a perfect world, there would be emphasis on both equally. But we dont live in that world. These student-athletes meet minimum requirements academically and then they can perform on the court (the real reason they were sought after).

[gotham devil]

Every night, I get down on my hands and knees and thank God that we didn't get John Wall.

That has nothing to do with his basketball ability. I'm not sure he's the greatest thing since Durant -- but he's up there with Derrick Rose and Ty Lawson as a great point guard (Rose is a good comparison ... Wall is better than Lawson was as a freshman, not as good as Lawson was last season).

But as a Duke grad, it made me sick to see Duke prostitute itself to pursue an academic fraud like Wall (and I said so on this forum long before he wound up at Kentucky). I used to argue that K and Duke had higher standards than the mass of college basketball programs -- I haven't argued that since we went after Mr. Wall. I can defend the academic flexibility we showed to sign guys like Will Avery and Sean Dockery, but both guys jumped through some pretty impressive academic hoops at the end of their prep careers to prove that they deserved a chance. There was no such commitment from Wall -- there hardly could be as long as he was at Word of God (a sham of a school that makes Mt. Zion look like Exeter Academy).

Yeah, Wall might have brought us a national title ... but it would have come at a price I didn't want to pay. I can see the argument that it doesn't matter -- nobody in the media is willing to look behind the curtains (nobody questioned Rose's academic status either).
For better or worse, this isn't the Ivy League, NESCAC, or even the Patriot League. It's effectively the NBA minor leagues with an academic backdrop designed to generate revenue for the preexisting athletic programs, elevate the school's brand, and entertain the current students, alumni, and overcharged fans.

Once a program goes down the slippery slope of having players with a 400+ differential in SAT scores, preferential scheduling, and enormous academic assistance (tutoring), what does it matter if a kid, on a relative basis, gives the appearance of improved effort in his senior year of school?

[RoyalBlue08]

However, if it turns out the boy is simply an average student with average h.s. grades (I've seen reports out there in some of these threads over the summer that he actually was "adequate" academically), then I don't think Duke was at all doing anything out of reason.

There are no average students at Word of God. In fact there are no students at all. There are only basketball players.

[dynastydefender]

has anyone had a look at Kentucky's schedule this year, it just seems a very soft one and when they have played semi talented teams they have struggled. I don't miss having Wall at Duke, we'll do fine without him and in the long run he made the right choice for himself.

and I have no idea what you are talking about. Your welcome for the UNC loss by the way. :)

[Greg_Newton]

and I have no idea what you are talking about. Your welcome for the UNC loss by the way. :)

Then look again: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/clubhouse?teamId=96

You have played zero top 20 teams and were a combined 2 points better than Stanford and Miami of Ohio after 40 minutes.

[slower]

Then look again: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/clubhouse?teamId=96

You have played zero top 20 teams and were a combined 2 points better than Stanford and Miami of Ohio after 40 minutes.

until UK loses a game, I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

[Greg_Newton]

until UK loses a game, I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

Certainly... but he was disputing that Kentucky has played against a soft schedule and has struggled against inferior teams, which is just a fact.

[heelwhoworksatduke]

Wall is not nearly the player Jason Williams was. Like others have said, winning more games, bigger games, leading the team when it matters(postseason), closing the deal with titles, sinking the 25 footer to win the game on the last possession of the game while others don't want to take the shot is what Jason proved he could do time and time again. Wall has a few early season wins, and probably Kentucky should have lost a couple of their games.

Duke and UNC(though struggling mightily now) do not need a John Wall type. With 8 titles between the two, and tons of great players in the past, it seems the recruiting formula of the last three decades has been excellent. And Duke was a shot away from winning the title in '94 against Arkansas with Grant Hill as a one man show. Mr. Hill was playing five positions that year. Great players don't guarantee titles and can ruin team chemistry. Both Duke and UNC have had truly great players in all aspects, but, still came up short of the title.

I will not anoint Wall the player of the century until he accomplishes what Mr. Hurley(times 2), Mr. Williams, Mr. Black, Mr. Phelps, Mr. Felton, and Mr. Lawson have achieved.

Kentucky and Cal were desperate to right the ship with regard to winning and have a no holds barred approach to the program.

With Duke and UNC, I like the history and tradition that has been built as well as the path taken to establish it. We'll get one chance to see how Wall handles the MADNESS come March. Afterwards, he can take his act to the NBA and Kentucky can burn all the evidence.

[77devil]

and I have no idea what you are talking about. Your welcome for the UNC loss by the way. :)

SOS for the Cats is 87, 135 , and 151 per RPI, Pomeroy, and Sagarin. That's soft by anyone's standard, except perhaps, Kentucky nation.

[pamtar]

As much as I dislike Calipari, I think Wall made the right choice with Kentucky. Cal has proven that he does produce the top one and done PGs in college basketball, at least over the last few years. He is willing to develop a platform for these guys to rack up stats, get mainstream coverage, and be the best players on top 5 teams. After this season his last two PG's will be NBA ROYs, IMO.
As for Wall, I dont see him making as big of an impact in the ACC. You have to think that weighed on his decision, especially had he gone to Memphis and ConUSA. (Who as it turns out actually has a tougher schedule than KY this year.) Only State could give him the scoring responsibility that KY is. Well, UNC could damn sure use him, but no way he could have known that in march.

Personally, I think the guy is the product of a great PG coach, a weak SEC, and a program trying desperately to redeem itself from last years loss to Garner-Webb.

[Devilsfan]

When we miss out on a recruit maybe we should take the ol'roy response of "he just wasn't a good fit". In the Wall case it's obvious that he wasn't a good fit for ol'roy because he's too good. A super star at their weakest position just would work or in his words "fit".

[johnb]

Wall is not nearly the player Jason Williams was. Like others have said, winning more games, bigger games, leading the team when it matters(postseason), closing the deal with titles, sinking the 25 footer to win the game on the last possession of the game while others don't want to take the shot is what Jason proved he could do time and time again. Wall has a few early season wins, and probably Kentucky should have lost a couple of their games.


I think that viewpoint is reasonable if you're assessing college careers. It's the same sort of viewpoint that ranks Scheyer and Wall as being equally good halfway through the season.

If you're an NBA talent scout, however, watching Wall play 20 minutes against any SEC or ACC team would be enough to rank him higher than Williams and way higher than Scheyer.

I'm perfectly happy to have gotten Scheyer and Williams, however, and don't much care about us not getting Wall--my interest in players who don't play for us is very limited.